Knowing when to cut your losses
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Discussion keeps the world turning. This is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable with myself, Ha Young. I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Fei Fei in the studio. Coming up...

Is it love, loyalty, or just the fear of wasting what you've already given? The sunk cost fallacy has a funny way of making us chase yesterday's losses instead of tomorrow's freedom. When you've already invested so much time, effort, or emotion, how do you know if it's time to cut your losses? And curious about social shifts, tech twists, or the mysteries of life, let us talk about it.

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Walking away from a toxic relationship, quitting a soul-crushing job, letting go of a dream that no longer fits who you've become. These moments are heavy, not just with emotion, but with perhaps outside judgment and the weight of everything and everyone we're tied to, from the investing in the judgmental

well, stock market, let's say, to life itself. How do we know when it's time to cut our losses and move on? So what started off as a term in the financial world, how does it apply in everyday life? Yeah, so stop loss in the financial world means it's an order that you put in place every

beforehand to sell an investment if it hits a certain price. If it goes up to a certain price, pardon me, or goes down to a certain price. And that idea is you are, if it goes down to a certain price, you're saying, I'm not going to lose any more. I'm going to get rid of this investment now. I'm going to cut my losses. So how does that apply to your own personal life?

Well, if you think of your kind of capital, if you will, that would be your energy, your time spent on relationships, your time spent building your career, your own personal identity, your mental health.

That is your capital. So the idea of stop loss in your private life is that if things are going to a certain point but they're headed in the wrong direction, they're headed south. Let's use a personal romantic relationship, right? If that relationship is going south, once it gets to a certain point, you cut your losses, you say, nope, that's it, I'm done, and you end that relationship just like you sell your stock because the price has been dropping.

But it's very difficult. There is no like a sell button in your life that you can just press and then let go of that very bad relationship. It's a very excruciating phase, I think, to say goodbye to a relationship or even a job that you really hate. Yeah. It also takes that emotional toll that you have to go through. Yes. Let's stick with the romantic example. I can see so many...

examples even just among my friends and people I know they're like you know flashing right in front of my eyes right now it I'm sure a lot of women feel this as you're approaching 30 and let's say if you've been with this guy for X amount of years and then it's like if he's not proposing or you don't see a future together and then what do you do am I able to find a guy after this did beat um

And unfortunately, sometimes because you're so nervous about the uncertainty, about your age, about the social alarm clock, and then sometimes people just settle. And then sometimes people divorce or not afterwards. But it sounds like a tragic movie that could continue. And some people go, OK, that was seven years of my lifetime.

I can't do this anymore. I'm going to cut my loss now. And do you find someone afterwards or maybe not? And then it becomes another, hopefully more upbeat movie material. But yeah, this is like you guys said, why is it so hard in real life to apply the idea? Yeah, well, because it doesn't account for human emotions, right? Life stop loss. You know, if you're talking about your stock,

You know, drops $10 and you say, okay, $10 was my bottom line. That was it. I drew a line, $10 loss, sell it. I'm going to take that loss. That's easy to do sometimes with your investments. It's harder to do when you've been dating a person for four years. It's harder to do when you've been working at a company for seven years and you don't see any opportunities for improvement.

So it doesn't account for the human emotion side of things. It's a very kind of cold, calculated look at your own personal life. And they say, you know, how well then how are you supposed to know when to make this decision? Right. And what they say is that you have to have a definition, a non-negotiable definition.

of your bottom line. So before that bottom line comes, you know, you know in your heart, you've established what your values are. You know the freedom that you need to feel. You know what gives you peace of mind and what doesn't give you peace of mind. You know what must be protected for you at all costs, non-negotiable.

Bottom line. And when you get there in that relationship, in that job, in that major, since we just talked about that, you make a decision, you cut your losses, and you move on. Yeah. I chatted with my girlfriend last night about this. To answer that question, still sticking with the romantic example, excuse me. She was like, domestic violence. I was like, girl. That's a very low-bottom question. You have to. You can't just...

that threshold is too low, you know? And then we're like, yeah, you know, emotional fulfillment, you know, want to feel safe and you want you guys to really compliment each other and become better people together, et cetera. And then we're like, yeah, no wonder we're not finding anyone right now. Anyway, enough about me. So the next question I guess then is, well, how do I know what my non-negotiables are?

How do I establish those? Well, what they say is to remember the times when you felt most alive or most fulfilled or most authentically yourself.

What values were you embodying at that time? What conditions were present for you? That's thinking in the positive mindset. If you want to think in the more negative mindset and you're thinking about the times in your job when you felt the most empty, the times in your relationship when you felt the most dissatisfied or the most frustrated, are those times

the times when you were at your bottom, well, then maybe you could establish that as a non-negotiable for you. If I get to the point where I'm feeling like this, then I'm going to draw a line in the sand right there. Yeah. But also I think before hitting that sell button to cut that losses, the first thing is also that you have to acknowledge that you failed...

for example, at this relationship. - It's a loss. - You are facing this kind of defeat in your life. - See, I disagree with that though. When we finish a relationship or if a job finishes or whatever, you use the word failure, right? But it's not just you, everybody uses the word failure. But I don't agree with that.

That wasn't your end game. That wasn't your end path, right? And for me, if you look at a breakup or a change of career or a change of major or what have you,

You are one step closer to getting to where you were supposed to be, where you are supposed to be. So it's not a failure. It's kind of a success if you look at it through those eyes, because you're going to have a new definition of who you are as a person. You're going to have a new bottom line, right, for yourself. You'll know yourself a whole lot better. I don't look at those things as failures at all. Hmm.

I think when it comes to especially relationships and even in jobs is that in Chinese, we have this word called zhine. I don't think it can be translated into obsession, but it's very similar to that is that you hold on to that either relationship or emotion or that job. Then it's not easy to let go because you are thinking of what ifs.

What ifs he'll change? Yeah, right. What ifs this job will turn into something else? And then you decide to stay on a little bit longer to see if that what if happens. Yeah. But if he's already like 30. Why 30? Yeah.

What's that? That's super young, is it not? I mean... 50. No. Okay, let's say if... Because it's just easier to use relationship as an example. Come on. I mean, he's been like wandering at other people and he's like 35 or something like that. I mean, are you willing to wait around that long, girl, for him to, oh, come back to you?

Maybe it's time to wander elsewhere for yourself, too, and not wait for him to, oh, one day mature. Are we talking about your last weekend?

One has a friend, right? No, I see what you're trying to say, right? And again, it goes back to that question, like, how are you supposed to know when? Yeah. Because as much as I disagreed with the failure term, the loss part, I think, is real, right? And you said the what if part. And people tend to hang on for too long because they expect some change to come. They expect things will get better. And then they don't get better. Right.

And then he's 35. Oh, now I'm on the 35 train. But yeah, it's that sense of loss of what could have been and you didn't get there. Yeah, well, actually, domestic violence is a great example here or gambling issues, etc. Like once is for all. I mean, it's time to leave. But I know in reality, things might get a little bit more complicated. And

we should always give people, you know, the room to sort of explore and all that. But, you know, in theory, I'm just saying in theory, okay? And not every loss is meant to be cut. Sometimes we misuse this idea to avoid responsibility or worse, to justify bad habits. When does cutting your loss not apply or worse, get misused?

I think when, for me, when the effort isn't there, I think, right? If you decide too easily that, oh, this is hard. I'm not going to do this. I don't know. I'm not really happy right now. See ya. I'm going to ghost you or block you.

then you're not putting in the effort. So I think stop loss when it comes to emotions and relationships and decisions about career is, you know, we've been talking about relationships, but let's talk about career for a sec. Let's, let's say you have a bad week at work, right? And you think, oh, well, that's my bottom line. Now I'm going to quit. Right? Well, no, hold on. Right. Just hold on. You know, don't make drastic decisions in your life. So I think

when you have a lack of effort, then that might be a bad decision to make. And also if you've cut your losses several times, I have to go back to the relationship example of that. If you cut your losses with different people several times,

you probably need to sit back a little bit to think whether maybe... My guy picker is broken. Or I've been maybe having issues. Not I. This person might be having issues with developing a long-term relationship. Mm.

Yeah.

or it's just always changing, or maybe the bottom line is a little bit too shallow, right? Then that might be an issue as well. Yeah, and also this kind of thinking, it doesn't account for long-term strategy, right?

because this cut loss mindset is all about minimizing immediate damage. But life isn't always that simple. Sometimes you need to ride out discomfort, wait out a rough season or double down on long-term goals. A short-term dip doesn't always mean that you're on the right or the wrong path. It's maybe just part of the process and you might even miss out on the breakthrough

just beyond the challenge. And even the financial term itself can be problematic in the sense that if you're an investor of the Chinese stock A market, and if you're always thinking about cutting loss, you will never earn a dime. You will always be losing money. Look at the last five years. So sometimes...

It's about waiting until the next cycle when the economy is buoyant, it lifts all boats, and we all get to earn a little bit from the investment market. So even the financial concept of, oh, my bottom line is this, and I always have to cut my loss, doesn't always work. Yeah, that's why there's no really easy answer for this one, I think, right?

You know, someone, how do you differentiate between short-term discomfort from, you know, some sort of change and then some genuine long-term pain that does require you to cut your losses? And there, then you have to analyze regret. And real regret comes from...

compromising your core values, the things that are really, really important to you in your life for your own long-term well-being. So you have to be able to identify

Oh, this is okay. Maybe a minor inconvenience that might go on for a month or two or three or four or five or six months versus something that makes you feel like, no, this is not who I am as a person. I don't feel comfortable with this. I don't accept this. And I'm not going to accept this, making sacrifices for it.

another company or another person just because it suits them when it doesn't suit me. I see hyper self-awareness here and that's really great. But also I think I'd just like to highlight one more thing I've got against this kind of cut your loss mentality that because it just doesn't work like that in real life. It over emphasizes utility over meaning. And there are so many things in life that's

that can't be efficient or optimized per se, such as parenthood, deep friendships, creative passions. They all involve frustration, uncertainty, and heart. And I think it's just extremely difficult, well, especially the parenthood part, where

Wait until your kid is 18. Maybe that's time to wash your hands legitimately off them. But actually, in China, you still need most parents will still financially support them for four years of college. And I mean, you can't not deal with them. You have the responsibility of being a parent, of looking after this human being and nurturing and raising them until they're

certain age. So yeah, cutting loss is a very interesting thought. And Fei-Fei, do you have some last minute tips or reflections on how to deal with it when finally, let's say, yeah, I've done this, cutting my loss, but I'm dealing with heartbreak and maybe senses of grief or whatnot. And how do you sort of

Make sense of all of this and move on. Yeah, I think the first thing is to getting to know yourself. I think I sort of already mentioned this in the first topic. That's Fei Fei's answer for everything. Yeah, just know your values, know your goals, especially in your job. What is your goal? Is your goal to, for example, getting a promotion or getting a raise where you want to finish a project?

And then to see whether this frustration that you are experiencing at the moment will be part of your journey to your goal or it's just damaging your journey. And that sort of gives you a sort of a picture of whether you should cut your loss now or just sticking around a little bit longer.

Life isn't a spreadsheet, and we're not here just to optimize returns. Cutting your loss is a valuable tool, but it's not a universal truth. It's not about walking away from every hard thing. It's about knowing why you're walking away. When guided by self-awareness, core values, and long-term vision, it can be liberating. But used as a shield from discomfort or responsibility, it becomes just another way to run from ourselves, perhaps.

Coming up next, let's have a moment of Heart to Heart. You ask. We answer. Roundtable. Heart to Heart.

We dipped into the mailbag and I want to respond to an email from Avangard Richard. What a cool internet handle you've got there. After listening to one of our earlier shows on China's cycling craze, Richard, you wrote in to say you've noticed how well developed the biking infrastructure is in big cities in China, but you really want to know why.

what it's like in small and medium-sized cities here in China. And you're also hoping to plan a bike tour that sticks to dedicated bike paths rather than busy main roads. Well, hello, Richard. It's wonderful to hear from a fellow cycling enthusiast.

I'm so glad you enjoyed our show on the cycling craze. And what do you guys have to recommend to Richard? Well, I think actually when it comes to cycling paths, cities like Xiamen and Chengdu or along the eastern coast in Jiangsu province, for example, like in the city of Taichung, that they have like

bike lanes. For example, in the city of Xiamen, they have a more than seven kilometers long sky bike lane, which is built sort of mid-in-the-air, elevated bike lane. I think it's the longest elevated bike lane in the world. And also have very colorful overpass and flyover and sort of connects

key transit points so that it can keep cyclists safe from traffic and also offering them scenic views. And that's something that I think Richard can give it a go if he ever traveled to the city of Xiamen in Fujian province. And that's not a tier one city, correct? No, it's definitely not a tier one city. It's a much smaller city, but considering European sizes, it's

pretty big. And it's a beautiful tourist attraction of a city. And also Richard has a follow-up question. Does China have anything like the Danube cycle path? The Danube is 多鸟, 多脑河 in Chinese. Such a beautiful Chinese translation. And Richard goes on explaining the Danube cycling path as 多鸟, 多脑河.

1,800 miles long, or that's 2,897 kilometers long, a bike path. So do we have anything similar to that in China? Not exactly, because as far as I know, that path that you just talked about is

Exactly a bike path. It's strictly a bike path, right? There's something super long here in China, but it's not strictly a bike path. I'm talking about the Grand Canal bike route. It is 1,700 kilometers long.

It goes from Beijing to Hangzhou, and this route follows the world's longest canal that was built thousands of years ago. What a beautiful opportunity this would be if your legs are up for it. The terrain is flat, they say, which is really good, but it's uneven in parts. And also the amenities might vary. For example, some rural stretches, they might lack repair shops or something like that.

but it's great if you can make that route. They say that it's really good for intermediate or beginner riders because it is quite flat. The elevation changes are quite minimal, but like I said before, it's not 100% bike path. You will have to enter into some traffic at certain points. Yes, so while China might not have a direct...

of the Danube cycle path just yet. The country is growing fast in that direction, especially in smaller cities that are investing heavily in greenways and cyclist-friendly spaces. A careful, planned plan

A trip can take you through scenic riversides, countryside villages, and modern elevated lanes, all without needing to dodge heavy traffic. And that brings us to the end of today's show. Thank you, Steve and Fei-Fei, for joining the discussion. I'm He Yang. We'll see you next time.