Parents embrace hands-on kindergarten in China
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This is Roundtable.

In recent years, China's kindergarten education has undergone significant shifts, moving away from a one-size-fits-all model toward more diverse approaches. While traditional kindergartens face declining enrollment, alternative models are gaining traction. What do these alternative models look like? We'll take a peek today. We are live from Beijing. This is Roundtable. My name's Steve. Hello there. And for today's show, I'm joined by Niu Honglin and Fei Fei.

First on the program. In China, kindergartens, like many places around the world, have traditionally been seen as places for play, basic learning, and preparation for primary school. However, a trend has emerged where children engage in hands-on tasks like what, you may ask,

How about this? Cooking, gardening, and even caring for animals. The shift does align with China's national preschool education law, which emphasizes well-rounded development, and supporters will argue such skills do prepare kids for an uncertain future. But the critics question if childhood is being rushed. As enrollment in traditional kindergartens declines, as I mentioned a moment ago, the rise of these practical programs reflects changing parental priorities.

balancing, academics, life skills, and the value of hands-on learning. Is this the future of early education in China? Maybe, maybe not. Opinions remain divided, and what I'm curious to find out is if opinions will be divided in this very room on this very day. Good afternoon to you, Nihong Lin and Fei Fei. So let's get straight into it then. These new trending kindergartens in China, what do they look like?

Well, in order to answer that question, I think I'd like to, you know, use several sentences to paint a picture of what kindergartens were like, at least in my generation. I have my own experience so that you know the contrast here. When I was a kid, I remember in kindergarten, we go to school, we would definitely eat in kindergartens because one primary goal of having these kindergartens is to take care of the kids so parents can go

go to work. So we would eat there, we would have nap time there, and we have snacks there. But besides those, we have classes there. I remember myself, one fragment of my memory was that I was telling a little boy sitting next to me, you know, if I give you two candies, and then I give you three more candies, you would have, yes, five candies, as many as five.

Oh, so you were being annoying even at that time. Yes. That is the thing. I was a fast learner. And he quickly changed his seat. I'm teasing him. I know. But the point being, I was a quick learner and I was even given the responsibility of helping those who might find it struggling with math in the age of four.

So that was my memory. And we would have math classes. We would have, well, when I say Chinese classes, I actually mean pinyin classes. So some of these courses, at my time, it was selective. You do not have to teach those things. But some kindergartners would choose to teach kids this knowledge so they

gain an edge or have something well gain an edge in primary school education or have something to do in kindergarten so it's not only for the purpose of teaching and whatever or learning knowledge so that was the situation back then did you have a similar experience to that one feifei

Well, I don't have a lot of memories left during my kindergarten year. I mean, it was a very long time ago. But my first child actually went to a kindergarten back in, well, 10 years ago. Oh, no, seven, six years ago. And during that time...

So teaching those knowledges, like Niu Niu just mentioned, is definitely a taboo at this stage. Right? It changed. You can't teach basic math equations, but you can teach children to know numbers. Like this is one, this is two, but you can't teach one at two equals what.

And then there are also lessons about, you know, reading picture books. But it's definitely also about appreciating and having the habit of reading instead of really... Learning the characters. Yes, learning the characters or even learning the pinyin is definitely off the table. And they spend a lot of time outdoors, especially when the weather is good. And they have like different...

playing rounds and doing football, I remembered, in that kindergarten because they brand itself as a football-featured kindergarten. Ah, specialized. So they have, like, football classes and that's, like, I think, a more recent type of public kindergarten these days in Beijing. And

The kind of kindergartens we're talking about today are being very innovative and bold, in my opinion, in certain ways. We'll explain a bit later. But for these kindergartens, we're talking about the kindergartens that are teaching kids to chop firewood, make pancakes, grow crops, and raise ducks.

in the kindergarten. So the purpose of such kindergartens is to start from scratch and be self-sufficient, quote-unquote self-sufficient, meaning that instead of using any kind of semi-product, they want kids to have the experience of doing something or making something out of thin air from the very beginning to the final product.

And that includes cooking. The kindergartners, the kids, will pick vegetables. They will wash the vegetables themselves. If there's garlic, the garlic is freshly cut.

I emphasize that word cut on purpose. We'll come back to that in a sec. Meat is freshly chopped by them. I did that emphasis again. And kids, this is cute, they wear a chef's hat and they stand in front of a stove and they cook dishes. They'll also do things like wash clothes in a small basin and hang the clothes by themselves. They'll thread needles. They'll sew their clothes.

They'll sow seeds. They'll plant watermelon seeds. They'll fertilize crops. And I want to go back to that point again. We talked about it on Roundtable on a previous episode about China's national preschool education law and the fact that they were looking to emphasize education

the well-roundedness of kids by not teaching them too much too soon in terms of, as you said, Feifei, you can't teach advanced math to four-year-olds. There are a lot of critics about this as well, but they also have outdoor exercises. What types of outdoor activities are they doing?

Well, they have like trainings like climbing ladders, crossing obstacles, crawling, running, you know, making them an easy version of a survival game.

I've seen this. One of my friend's kids, instead of having or enjoying all these activities in a kindergarten, which I would assume is not that common just yet, because I personally have no experience visiting such kindergartens, and I've been selecting kindergartens from a kid, so they are not that common in the Chinese society just yet, these extreme ones. Even in your searches for kindergartens as your own son gets ready to go,

you haven't been able to find any results? I haven't been able to find a kindergarten that teach my kids to make scrambled eggs, real scrambled eggs. That didn't exist in my search. And I didn't...

see any kindergarten teaching kids to chop firewoods just yet again in Beijing in my neighborhood yet I have seen different outdoor activities and the extremist one I've seen is not in a kindergarten but in a quote-unquote extracurriculum school but it's for little kids and they would bring kids to outdoor areas having them cross rivers having them go jump into a um

mud hole as deep as around one meter. So to the height of a little kid's chest, almost that high. And the kid would jump in and they go struggle in the pool of mud and then they climb out. Yes. And those are, yes. If you can see the face of Fei Fei, it's precious. She is beautiful.

She's in shock. She is in shock. And the thing is, my friend's kid is a little girl. And she is very strong. In the video I saw, she jumped into the mud pit and she struggles to get out. And parents outside are cheering for all the kids. Definitely survivalist game level. Yeah, exactly. You said that your search results here in Beijing...

didn't produce that many results. But there's a kindergarten in Wuhan, which is in the central part of the country in Hubei province. 70% of its teaching is done outdoors, and that includes mountain climbing and various outdoor activities. Let me make it clear. What I'm trying to say here is that there are definitely different levels of

of baldness for kindergartens. When we say we stopped teaching kindergarten kids the knowledge in primary schools, that is a universal thing here in China. The well-roundedness of kids is the primary goal when it comes to cultivation of these little humans. Yet, and also outdoor activities are very important goal and important part of kindergarten life. But

The kind of extreme sports, the kind of house tour and working in farmland, these are relatively rare. And these are the choices of not that many kindergartens. But yet they still seem, Fei-Fei, to be quite popular, don't they? Oh, sure.

Well, I think in the example in Xuzhou, Jiangsu province, which is in the eastern part of China, that the running kindergartens where children are encouraged to do activities like chopping firewood,

making pancakes, growing crops, and it's quite popular online. And even parents from other parts of China are thinking about transferring their children to this particular kindergarten to try to enroll them in that kindergarten. And they also call for such kindergartens to be built near their home on the internet.

But I think that's also the thing with internet, that you sort of amplify one side of the story. And I think from a parent's point of view, I do get some of the critics when it comes to this type of kindergarten that some of the activities may not seem to be appropriate.

to be carried out by a three or four year old, especially when it comes to using, as Steve just mentioned, cutting. I don't know. I would want my three year old to cook for me. That's nice. And with real, like real knives or things like that. So it's,

it can be put a really question mark on the safety issues. There's a lot of fair criticism about these types of programs, but the one that you just mentioned, the one in Jiangsu province, there's a one, if I understood correctly from what I read, there's a one-year waiting list, or maybe even longer now, a one-year waiting list to get into that school.

So there are critics, of course, but there are a lot of people who are in support of these types of programs, too. Let's go back and talk about the change in early education law. We won't go too deeply into it, but just for our listeners who may have missed that episode, we did dive deep into it. What were some of the basic changes there?

What were they looking to do? Well, in the past, besides playing games and making crafts, children were also taught some knowledge in kindergartens. That was my experience learning pinyin and also teaching a little bit of math as a four-year-old. And now the situation has changed. According to a 2014 article published by the website of Ministry of Education, China enacted the preschool education law this year, so 2025, previously teaching kids knowledge

were frowned upon and the public schools were definitely not doing it several years ago. Yet for private schools, it's not forbidden. However, since June the 1st, 2025, it's no longer a yes pass in any kindergartens. Kindergartners are required to conduct education activities in line with the developmental stages and characteristics of preschool children while prohibiting introduction of a

elementary school curriculum. Yeah, so this is very new, right, in the country. And I would have to assume that this would reflect a change in what parents want or think about preschool education. Yeah, definitely. Because I remembered back in 2015, when my daughter was born, at that time,

parents do want to send their kids to private kindergarten because private kindergartens can offer such classes on math, on some pinyin, on some Chinese character learnings. But now I think we are seeing parents of younger of age, they want their kids to learn more of a

practical skills like what that Shuzhou Kingdom Garden is offering, like to take care of yourself, to have some basic life skills that in preparation for later stages of your life instead of, you don't really need to rush into the stage of learning pinyin and doing math problems. You can learn that in primary school. And we are seeing this shift

from just focusing on academic knowledges to a more, as mentioned, well-rounded and practical life skills a person needs. And the funny thing is that I just talked to some teachers in kindergarten and they told me the shift or the 20 things happening in the society would definitely affect what's been taught or the focus of kindergarten teaching. Sure.

me that several years ago, sports was very big in the

entire Chinese society to be, as a matter of fact, that's when a lot of kindergartens with the specialty of a certain sports game was very popular among parents and kids as well. Like Fei-Fei has mentioned, there are kindergartens that in the kindergarten, every kid is supposed to be learning a little bit of football. Another kindergarten would require every kindergartners to learn a little bit of basketball or a little bit of, you know, everything.

in terms of sports. Yet, several years later, people realized that kids' healthiness might be more important. So by saying healthiness, I mean they would want kids to have a lot of outdoor time. So the activity is not that important. What's important is that it has to be carried outside of a classroom. And the house tour or getting engaged with

animals having some moments with the real life skills. My feeling is that it's something that's popular these days. Well, the kindergartens are responding to a shift in the change of the parental thinking, right? Or how parents are thinking. And this is reflected in some statistics. There was the 2024 Statistical Bulletin on National Education Development. It was put out by the Ministry of Education. And this is the info that came from that.

China had over 253,000 kindergartens in 2024. That dropped by over 20,000 compared to the 2023 report. There were nearly 36 million children enrolled in preschool education nationwide in 2024. That was a decrease of over 5 million compared to 2023. The competition is becoming fiercer for these kindergartens. So in order to win over the hearts of

of the kids or the wallets, if you will, of the parents. They have to make improvements, they have to adjust, and they have to kind of be creative with the programs. Now, speaking of creative programs, what we talked about happening here in China, and Yo-Hong Lin asked me before the show, is this type of thing happening anywhere else in the world? Let's go to Denmark for a brief moment and tell me what you think about this. This is from...

a Denmark website from 2019. The stats might be a little bit different now, but you'll get the idea. What they have in Denmark, about 10% of all kindergartens are forest kindergartens. - What? - Yes. I watched a video of one particular school, well, call it a school. It was run by a guy with a university degree in human development.

And they run outdoor education workshops for educators from all around the world. Television crews come from all around the world because they're very, very curious about this type of forest education, this forest kindergarten.

The interview clips that I saw, the educators were saying, kids need to learn how to feel wet. They need to learn how to feel cold. They need to learn to balance their physical skills. They can learn how to be creative. Another clip I watched, kids were whittling with tree branches. They were using extremely sharp knives.

And they were making arrowheads, I assume, out of the ends of the tree branches. Another clip. They were climbing up trees, but not just a little bit up the tree. I'm talking way up the tree. Now, the teacher who is there is simply there for observing them.

There's no real telling them, don't do that, don't do this. And the teacher said that in his 17 years of doing that, he's only seen one big injury. And that was when a parent accidentally ran over the foot of a kid as they were leaving the parking lot. So basically saying there's no injuries that have happened there.

at that school. And a lot of research says that spending time outdoors is great for kids because they have better concentration, they have much better social skills, they're more creative, they're more innovative, and they're actually just happier. And the improvements in childhood development were found in a study. They did one on forest schools in England and Wales, where

which listed increased language skills, higher motivation to participate, greater knowledge of natural surroundings, and there's also evidence that it stimulates motor development. Now that's taking things to another extreme. What do you think about that? I have so many questions.

But I think my overall view is that I would not be sending my kid there. Yeah, definitely no. No for me. But I do get that. I do see a lot of scholars are arguing these days that getting close to nature, like what this forest kindergarten has been doing. Getting close to nature and being hurt by nature are two separate things.

But yeah, it's good for your anxiety, for your mental problems in the future and also helps with, for example, physical coordination. It's bad for my anxiety level. Yeah, that's fair. Is it not also fair to say a child has just as much of a chance as burning themselves on a stovetop than they do of cutting their finger when chopping a branch?

It is safe to say that, but they're not... One happening in China. But they're not... Yeah, that was my feeling because I looked into the kindergartens here in China, the ones, the quote-unquote extreme ones that are teaching kids to cook, to...

cut. Yeah, yeah, these things. But I also learned that these teachers are still quite careful, and they have more teachers in these kind of kindergartens so that they can supervise all of the activities, but done by kids. And also in the initial stage, instead of really having the sharp, sharp knives used by these kids, they would provide the relatively...

dull ones first so kids get used to using it and they master the skills of chopping or slicing or peeling first and then move on to sharper items. That's fair. In Norway, I should have mentioned that before they allow a child to have a knife, there's education on the knife as a tool. Before they allow them to climb a tree, there's education on how to do it. They learn how to do it as a group. I don't want to paint the picture that they're just saying, okay, good luck. Okay.

And see what happens to him. But those concerns being said, I do understand the logic or the mentality behind all these changes and shifts in China, outside of China. Because in my home, you cannot imagine how many toys do I have that are just meanier and dumber version of house appliances. In my home, my kid is...

super excited with his little vacuum cleaner. He has a vacuum cleaner that can actually vacuum. Oh, it works. It works. And also he has boom sticks and he has a little sewing machine, but that sewing machine and also a chopping and slicing machine, the little table, but those ones are just mimicking the real tools instead of you cannot really use it to chop wood or anything. So,

But he's super excited about these toys, even more than the little cars that can run and the little bubble gun. By saying bubble gun, I mean the gun that can pop out soap water bubbles, not real BB guns. So...

I'm saying, what I'm saying here is that kids, they get to see parents working in homes. They get to see them cooking and cleaning. And they are familiar with these activities. And they are interested in trying. Do they? Okay. That was going to be one of my questions later is that

But some kids will be into this type of thing. Some kids will want to climb a tree to the very top and not feel afraid about it. Some kids will want to pick garlic by themselves, crush it and cook a dish. But others won't.

be so into it, I would think. Your child happens to be interested, but some others might not. So how can we create a balance? Is the argument that it's too early for kids to be learning advanced math skills at four years old, could we not make the same argument and say it's too early to be teaching cooking skills to a four... I haven't gone to one restaurant where the chef was four years old.

It's fair. Right? But I think that also helps with the physical coordination that every human that needs to develop in their childhood. But I think Steve is correct when he says that if you say a kid is too young to learn math because his nerve system is not developed to the stage, you can also say that a four-year-old is just too young. His muscles in his hands and his arms are not developed to the stage to hold up.

a heavy pot.

Well, I would argue like differently, for example, for peeling your garlic. Peeling garlic? Yeah, it's like you need that kind of development in an early stage. And when it comes to like lifting a heavy item like a pot or chopping the firewood, picking up the wood, that is also helping in a way with the physical development that a human needs. We're not only talking about child.

that how to balance yourself, how to make sure that to know your limit physically, to know your limit and how big of a size of wood you think is you need to know is appropriate for you to pick it up. And also when it comes to cooking, I think it also helps them to understand, you know, sort of,

in preparation to know to protect yourself. You know, if you get burnt or nearly burnt during getting close to fire once, you will know that you need to keep a distance from these kind of items. Or you can just be taught by words instead of... I don't think they can learn by words. Yeah, there was a story in People's Daily last year

You talked about the coordination development, and that's what it talked about in the story. It said,

What about dressing themselves? What about eating independently after entering kindergarten? You might think that they'll naturally pick it up, as they grow up. Why learn it now? But if they can do it at that age, if they're capable of doing it at that age, then why not allow them to develop the skills as soon as they're capable? Now, with that said, do we bubble wrap our kids these days?

A little. Yeah. In my family, definitely a little. I think I say no to my kids' temptations, attempts too much. My kid would want to go into the kitchen just to observe. My kid would want to jump into a not that deep pool because it's outdoor, it's really hot, and it's nice to play with water.

But I would always worry about him being in a pool that is not clean enough and he would drink several scoops

sip of the water and get sick. I would worry that when he's in the kitchen, he would want to play with knife and hurt himself. So I think it's because of my anxiety level, my temptation to protect my kids to the extremist level that I can, that are actually preventing him from learning the life skills that he has the ability to in his stage.

And that transcends culture, doesn't it? That's not a Chinese thing. That's not a Canadian thing. That's a parent thing, isn't it? Yeah. You know, kids, I have a one-year-old, almost two now. He knows nothing about what safety is. He knows nothing about boundaries. He can drink water out of the toilet if he had a chance to get there. You should open a kindergarten. Yeah.

And it's natural, I think, for parents to sort of get anxious when it comes. And I don't even want to mention when he was eating, like how messy it can get if you just let him do his own thing and let him develop his skills.

But you have to pick it up and clean it up later. It just depends on how the level of anxiety I think you can handle yourself. But being able to talk about these topics and review on our parenting philosophies and principles would remind me of get loose a little bit and give him the chance to explain

explore the world on his own a little bit. And the reason previously I brought about the fact that I believe that some kids are just too young to pick a pot by themselves is because I also believe some kids are just at the right stage of start chopping firewood. And my point was precisely kids are different.

For some kids, learning some math problems are not a burden. It's a fun game. So the reason that we have different types of kindergartens out there allowing kids to learn different skills, the fact that though the administration of education said no knowledge of elementary school should be

taught in kindergartens. Yet, if you want to give yourself or give your kid a chance to learn a bit of everything, it's your own choice. It's not forbidden for parents. It's only forbidden for kindergarten teachers. So the opportunities are out there. The choices are out there. And that is a good

is a good thing. Last question quickly. Would you send your child to one of these kindergartens, the ones here in China that are teaching chopping and cooking and things like that, or even on a more extreme case, the style in some European countries? Would you do it or would you not? In Wuhan, yes. In Denmark, no. Well, I'm actually thinking the Denmark one is quite appealing to me because that's what my second child is.

is more likely to do. He likes lifting heavy things and climbing up and down. And I think if I had a chance to get close to a forest kindergarten, that might be something I want to consider. Yeah, because he's trying to show you what he's into, right? Like where his interests lie at that early age. I think it's such an interesting debate because it's so easy to argue on one side saying this is an opportunity for children to develop skills

that they normally wouldn't have an opportunity to develop until, you could say, many years later in their lives. But you could also say, I don't want my kid chopping wood with an axe. Because it's so easy to see what can go wrong there too, right? It's a very, very interesting story.