Super Soul Special: Cheryl Strayed: Brave Enough
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I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.

Cheryl Strayed's best-selling book, Wild, captivated millions of readers and inspired an Oscar-nominated film. Cheryl's memoir details her harrowing 1,100-mile trek on the Pacific Crest Trail. Her quest to reclaim her shattered life after her mother's death resonated deeply with readers. Four months after Wild was published, Cheryl released another bestseller called Tiny Beautiful Things.

It's a compilation of the popular online advice columns she wrote under the pen name Sugar. Cheryl's willingness to reveal her own struggles in order to help her readers won her a passionate and devoted following. Cheryl's powerful, deeply personal quotes are some of the most shared, tweeted, and memed on social media.

Cheryl calls quotes mini instruction manuals for the soul. They are the heart of her latest bestseller, Brave Enough.

So it was four years ago we were right here. Yeah. And I remember saying to you, "You're gonna have enough money to not--" 'Cause she was like, "Oh, I just want to have my own office." You don't even know-- You don't even know how poor I was when I sat with you. I was in huge credit card debt, had student loans, my student loans that I was paying. Yeah. Um, I did not have an office. I had gone shopping the day before 'cause I didn't have anything to wear for the show. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I didn't have...

So I went to the Goodwill that's by USC, and I bought a shirt for $5, which I still have, and I wore it. For our first Supercell Sunday. Yes. Okay, so I didn't know that that was the state that you were in. Well, this was what was funny. I couldn't talk about it then because I was still in it. Yeah. But my book, yes, my book was on the New York Times bestseller list. Yes. And that month, our rent check bounced. And my husband texted me and said, why did our rent check bounce? And I said...

Because we don't have any money. And he said nobody would believe this. Yeah, nobody would have. Because you don't get paid as a writer until like a year later. Yep. But this is what's so interesting. I think we were walking right through the trees here. Yeah, we were there. And you were saying, oh, I just want to be able to have my own office. And I said, girl...

You're gonna have more than an office. -You did say that to me. -Yes. -I remember that. -Yes. And four years later... -I have an office. -Girl! -I have an office! -You have more than an office. I have an office. So, can I just talk about this for a moment? Okay, everybody knows when I get excited about a book, I cannot keep it to myself. I just cannot.

I cannot. And so I read this book and I read it in like an hour. Right. In a city. It's a fast read. Yeah. I read it in like an hour. And then I thought, okay, let's see if we can get Sheryl on on Supercell Sunday to talk about it. And I thought, okay. But right now, what could I do? What could I do? And then I realized I could tweet about it. Oh.

- I could tweet about it. - The tweet that went around the world. - Yeah, I could tweet about it. 'Cause I wanted everybody to get this little book. You can open any page and find something that strikes your heart.

And interestingly enough, the world has become, you know, this place of quotes, particularly internet. I mean, it's the most popular thing, people sharing quotes. This is a series of quotes about being brave enough in the world. So what do you think it is with quotes and why people are so drawn to them? Well, as you know, we're hungry for consolation. We're hungry for inspiration and the truth.

And what a quote does is it delivers in a very concise, powerful form that little jolt of that thing you needed to hear, that thing you forgot, the thing you knew, the thing you didn't quite understand that's now been articulated. And I think, obviously, the Internet is such a great forum for that kind of thing. You know, when you and I, you know, before the Internet, you know, when we were just reading books, we would do that thing, right? Yes, yeah. Where you come across a sentence. Yeah.

And you say, wow, that I need to remember that. And you underline it or you write it down in your notebook. And I think what's happening now is people are just grabbing that and putting it right on the Internet. They're tweeting it. They're putting it on Instagram, making these memes. And they have spread like wildfire. Well, you say that, you know, this is just in the introduction that I believe in the power of words to help us reset our intentions. Yes. My favorite word.

intention clarify our thoughts and create a counter narrative to the voice of doubt many of us have murmuring in our heads the one that says you can't you won't you shouldn't have quotes at their core almost always shout yes yes

They do. Yes. Even if it's a hard quote, even if it's saying a truth that's sad, even if it's saying something like there is suffering in the world. Yes. It shouts yes. It implies that we can do this. So this book came about why?

You know, that's a book that the people made. It's a really strange thing that here I've put out this book of quotes all written by me, but those quotes came into the world, really. Because other people were quoting and spreading them around the internet. Exactly. And I started to notice that

this on Twitter and Instagram, all the places you see these quotes, people were giving my words back to me. People were sending me photographs of tattoos, my lines tattooed on their arm or whatnot. What is that like? It's amazing. It's really an honor. Yeah, it is an honor. And it makes me feel, I understand where they're coming from because, of course, I've felt that same way about other writers' sentences as well.

And, you know, when people take a quote on like that, they're making it their own. You know, I wrote it, but it belongs to them. Didn't that kind of happen with Wilde that obviously you wrote it and then it sort of became... I mean, I don't know what the stats are on the number of people who are now trying to hike...

A lot of people. A lot of people are hiking it. And those who aren't just felt like you were writing that book for them. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's what literature is about. Literature is about speaking the deepest truths about who we are as humans and

And when readers recognize themselves in a writer's work, you've built this unbreakable bridge. Yeah. That is a spiritual connection. That is a spiritual connection. And so, you know, I always think, you know, it's never up to any writer to say what impact their work has in the world. And I love that, you know, Wild, all those books that came from such a deep place in me, the minute it left my hands, it belonged there.

to the readers. And they get to say, make of it what they will. And what so many people made of Wild is it became their personal story. I mean, not only people who decided to go hiking because of Wild, but I would say even more deeply, people who said, I know...

I have been broken. I've been lost. I've been grieving. And I know what you're writing. I know what you're speaking of because I've lived that truth too. And, you know, the hike is then, you know, maybe they go on a healing journey and it's a hike. Maybe they do something else. Maybe the healing journey was that they read the book and felt that connection. Yeah. During this whole process of writing, did you change the way you were able to express suffering? Because I had read that at one point that you thought that that was...

Like, don't tell that story. Don't tell that story. Yes. Don't let anybody know. Yeah. And now you feel completely different. Yeah. That in the sharing of the story. Yeah. Well, I would say that that's the lesson, you know, one of the most important lessons I learned through the success of Wild is that it was such an affirmation that if you take that risk, if you take that chance, if you tell that the truest, hardest, deepest story you have within you, you're

you're not going to step into the light and find that you're there alone, that you're going to be surrounded by people who are there with you. And say, "Me too." And say, "Me too." "Me too." And when you take that, essentially you're risking vulnerability, you're risking showing your truest nature. Yes. And, you know, here I was writing about the death of my mother. You know, as you know, my mom died of cancer when she was 45. It was the greatest loss of my life. And it was that story that I had to tell over and over again. I've told it in all of my books.

And there was a point where I felt like, okay, Cheryl, you need to shut up about this. This is, you know, a lot of people die of cancer. Quit complaining about it. Quit moaning about it. But I had something really...

true to tell about that loss and also what came after that loss that me finding my way back to life through remembering the love that my mother gave me and and I ended up when I did take that chance of telling that very specific story

Speaking with a universal voice. That's what I found. Because I wasn't just talking about myself. I was talking about all the people. All the people. And people around the world, not just here in the U.S. That's been astounding to me. I went to India and I was giving this reading in this packed room in Jaipur, India. This tent at the Jaipur Literary Festival. I've been there. Were you there? Oh, yes. I saw a picture of you. Hundreds of people. And I looked out and I thought,

I was terrified and I just thought I'm going to do what I do. And I finished my talk and I went and sat at my little table where I was to do my book signing. And those hundreds of people all lined up and they all said to me all the same things that people say to me in Ohio and Los Angeles. Exactly. The same things. And again, you know, we are more the same than we are different.

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is as a human, I think that every time you take that, that you find that strength to show your truest self, you know, risk showing yourself.

that self that makes you feel a little uncomfortable, a little like you might be, you know, found out to be the weird one after all. That almost always when I take that chance, whether it be in small talk or in a book... Well, not just risk, be brave enough to break your own heart. To be brave enough, that's right. To be brave enough to break your own heart, which is your quote. That's my quote. And what that's about is being brave enough to risk intimacy, to risk rejection, to risk failure. And all of the best things come when you do that.

Because it's about really when you risk all of those things, you are really daring to be more human. You are. You are. And I think that sometimes you learn things the hard way and you never forget it, do you? And you never, ever, ever forget it. And so being brave enough to break your own heart is about...

being brave enough to make the decisions that end up being really right for you. And also brave enough to sometimes make a decision that wasn't the best one on the end, but you learn from it. Well, there's no decision that you can't learn from. That's right. That's right. One of my favorite quotes here, and I've passed it on. I've sent this to people, this quote to a friend of mine who was going through a really horrid divorce process. It had taken her a long time to get through. People who have suffered any kind of loss. This is my favorite one. Page 58.

You let time pass. That's the cure. You survive the days. You float like a rabid ghost through the weeks. You cry and wallow and lament and scratch your way back up through the months. And then one day, you find yourself alone on a bench in the sun, and you close your eyes and lean your head back, and you realize you're okay. Mm.

Thank you. Ah, that is, that has really, I know, been like a bomb for so many people. So comforting. Thank you. Yes. That's, thank you. What were you going through when you wrote this? Oh, you know, I've been, I've been in that moment of my life so many different times.

You know, I think that part, to me that quote is about, is about how part of life is suffering. And that, you know, so many of us, I think it's really interesting that you sent that quote to friends who are in need. Because I think when we see our friends suffering, we don't know what to say. You don't know what to say. You say, I'm so sorry. You know what's great about this book of quotes?

No matter what somebody's going through, there's a quote in here for it. For them. Yeah. And this is, you know what? I actually cried when I first read it because a friend of mine's really been going through a lot. And I thought, this is what I've been trying to say. This is what I've been trying to say. You're not saying your pain isn't real. Yeah. You're saying, you know what? This is what I've been trying to say. Here's what you do. Yeah. You know, you let time pass and you cry and you go through the hardship. Yeah.

and then you're going to come out the other side and the sun will be shining on your face and you'll be sitting there on a bench it's like it's connected to that it's connected to the quote in the book that actually is by my mother put yourself in the way of beauty

that you just hold on through the hard times and know that someday you will be sitting on that bench and you're leaning your head back. Is that your favorite one? Put yourself in the way of beauty. Put yourself in the way. It might be my favorite one simply because it comes from my mom and it has been such a guiding message

light for me in my life because in the hardest times, I don't know if you remember the stories that my mother would say, no matter what the hard times are, hard times will come. But you know what else will always come is a sunrise and a sunset. And so it's up to you. You want to be there for it? Be there for it. I

I think it's that's about perspective and gratitude and those two things are so key to I think a happy life Yes, I love this one too. Don't surrender. This is so oh my goodness. Hello Don't surrender all your joy For an idea you used to have about yourself that isn't true anymore Where did that one come from? Well?

Well, how long do we, you know, how long do we hold on to this old idea? I was going to do this job or I was going to go to this school or I was going to be married to this person. Yeah. And it doesn't serve us anymore. And, you know, where that came from is I was asked to write a letter to my 20 something self in my book, Tiny Beautiful Things. And that's one of the things I told my younger self.

is that it was okay to rewrite my story from time to time. And not only okay, but necessary. And that you can't, you know, there's one thing about holding, you know, sometimes you do have to see things through even though they don't cause you joy. But sometimes you need to say, you know what? I'm not going to surrender my joy. I'm not going to be this thing anymore. I'm going to be this other thing. This other way. That's such a more eloquent, beautiful, poetic way of saying stop holding on to the past. That's right. Yes. Yeah. But so many people are living right now

based upon what they thought or what they wanted or what they imagined. And it's no longer true. That story's no longer true. How do you wake up and realize the story isn't true? I think it's not about waking up one morning, though it does sometimes feel that way. I think that you, you know...

being awake to our lives is in some ways a daily process, you know, checking in with this idea of like, why, what is my intention? You said intention is your favorite word. And I remember at some point recently, us, the two of us talking and you, you, you, you had counseled me. You said,

Cheryl, always ask yourself, what is your intention? And I think that being awake to those stories you tell yourself about yourself is about reminding yourself always what is your intention. Yeah. Have other people changed towards you since all of this happened?

Most people haven't. You know, the people who really love me loved me before. You know, for a long time after I had this experience with Wild, I would say, oh, no, nothing has changed in my life. And that was my way in some ways. Of trying to say, I haven't changed. Of trying to be humble. And now I say...

you know, two things changed. It was money and I lost my anonymity to some extent, you know? I had to decide to just remember who I was, to really emphasize the people who I have in my life, who don't care if I wrote wild or not, you know? And just to trust that kind of the grounded sense of who I really am in the world rather than who people think I am as a writer. And how is the family adjusted to it all? My family, well, you know, as you know, my...

- Carver and Bobby. - Children got to, Carver and Bobby. The experiences they've had,

meeting you, meeting Reese Witherspoon, Laura Dern, becoming friends with people who, like, I would have never dreamed in my childhood or you in your childhood meeting. You know, that's been, I think, a fun ride for them. So there is that piece of this that's been, you know, really fun for our family. But mostly, we're just like we always were. Are you still quoting 30-year-old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If

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Cheryl met her husband Brian nine days after completing her trek on the Pacific Crest Trail. They got married in 1999 and are raising their two children, their son Carver, now 11, and 10-year-old daughter Bobbie, not far from where Cheryl completed her life-changing hike.

Would you mind sharing the story about Bobby and Carver wanting to fly? Oh, I will. Yeah, I'll tell that story. Every summer, for the last couple summers, I've taught a writing workshop in Chamonix, France. And we went almost three years ago. And Carver and Bobby were, at the time, eight and nine. And we arrive in Chamonix, it's in the French Alps. And so it's this little village with these high, snowy peaks. And in the summertime, the sky is full of

paragliders, they called them parapentes in French. And my kids, even though they were eight and nine, immediately said, "Mom, we're going to do that." And I said, "No, you are absolutely not going to do that." They keep at us all week. We want to go, we want to go. Finally, I say to them, "You know, you can't go, you're too young." And so, of course, my daughter marches over to the fellow who's like selling the parapente rides, and he says, "Oh, eight, eight, you just have to be eight."

Wow. So I say to my kids, you know, no, I'm afraid. I can't let you do this. And I said, also, you're too afraid to do it. You think you want to do it, but you're going to get up there to that mountaintop, and you have to jump off of it, and you're not going to be brave enough to do it. And my son looks at me. He was nine. And he says, Mom, you know what? I am afraid.

But I don't want to be a person who lives my life not doing things just because they scare me. Oh, Carver. Your nine-year-old Carver says this to me. And it was one of those moments of awakening where I just thought, you know, here is where I had to be brave enough to break my own heart as a mother. Yeah. He knew he had me. Yeah, I was going to say. Because I was like, oh, my gosh. And my husband and I just looked at each other.

And we said, "Okay, okay, we will do this." And we paid them two tickets. And the next morning, okay, we bundle them up in these like wind jackets. I'm not joking, Oprah. This was terrifying. So we send them up. I say to the Frenchman, "Will you please make sure that all of the buckles are done?"

And he says, "I will make sure, Madame." And so we go and stand in a meadow in the town where they are to land. And 30 minutes later, they start to get close enough that they can see us. And they're yelling, "Mom, Dad, Mom, Dad." And they land in the grass.

And they're alive. And they have this amazing, like each of them, the looks on their faces. There's no inventing that look. It's one of the most authentic looks of achievement and success and pride and joy. And you know that feeling. And I did it. That feeling that you did something hard. It's yes coming from the inside out. It's shouting yes from the deepest place in your soul and your spirit. And it's doing something that was hard to do that you did anyway. Yeah.

You know, that's bravery.

That's bravery. That's courage. But brave enough to break your own heart. Are you standing on the ground for those 30 minutes? It's actually longer than 30 minutes because there's 30 minutes to get up and then waiting for them to jump off. Yeah, almost an hour. And are you thinking, what am I, nuts? Am I crazy? You're imagining every possible terrible scenario. And this is always one of the hardest things about life, right? As a parent, you're always making decisions. Will I forgive myself if they hurt themselves? Would I forgive myself? And the answer is no.

And yet, what are you going to do? What are you going to live your life not letting your kids do anything that scares you? If you interviewed Carver and Bobby right now and said, tell me one of the greatest things you've ever done, I think they would both tell you that. And, you know, I think that this is one of the threads that runs through Brave Enough is this idea of courage.

how we have to take responsibility for our lives and make hard choices, but also how people help us along the way. And, you know, I paid for that ticket to get them to the top of the mountain, but they're the ones who had to jump off. And the deal with jumping off a mountain is you have to do it yourself. It's the same deal with climbing up to the top, it turns out. But, you know, I think that in so many ways, like my children showed me,

They taught me a lesson that I taught them that I needed to again learn for myself, which is a really fascinating part of life, isn't it? The way you learn from the same things over and over again in a new light. Yeah. Can you finish this? I feel the presence of God when? When I'm in natural, beautiful, wild places. I experience love when? I breathe. The purpose of forgiveness is? To move forward, to have a whole life. Mm-hmm.

And I'm living my purpose when? I'm loving and giving and writing. And you believe the purpose of a soul is? I think of my soul as my center, the repository of the deepest truths, the thing that has guided me since the moment I was born and will guide me to my death. Do you have a hope for your legacy? Yes, I hope that...

People find solace in the words that I've left them, whether it be in my writing, in my books, or in the conversations we've had together. What do you think is the biggest obstacle to peace? The biggest obstacle to peace? I think it's scarcity. The idea of...

that we don't live in an abundant world. I think people get really afraid when they think something's been taken from them. You think that's the same thing as the force of rage?

You know, events in the news, over and over again, we see the violence and we see the rage. What do you think the source of rage is? The same thing. I think it is that scarcity. I think that people feel very afraid when they feel threatened that their power has been taken away or that other groups of people have been granted some sort of power or access that they don't have. And that becomes rage and violence. And the root of racism is?

Oh, God. So deep. I think the root of racism is in this false notion of the other, us and them. Mm-hmm. That kind of divide that maybe we're not born with, but that we're taught so early on. Yeah. Again, it's interesting it's connected to scarcity. It's like we are this tribe, and they are that tribe, and these people are this, and this is... And that idea that we have to hold power instead of share love. Mm-hmm.

That's really good, Cheryl. And so who've been your greatest teachers? My mother, my father. Not a positive teacher, but he taught me things about the world and humanity that are actually negative. But I do think that that has, you know, learning about some of the difficult things has been useful to me in my life. My kids have taught me a lot, my husband, and people who guided me on my path as a writer. And real success is...

Knowing that you did the best work you can possibly do. That's the only measure that matters to me. If I can say, "Yes, I gave it my all. Yes, I did my best." That's success. Yeah. This is perfect for you because you already wrote about it. What advice would you give your younger self?

The thing that I really wish I could travel back in time and tell myself, and I think I'm not alone in this, is just to say to my younger self, you are okay. You're doing good. Just keep doing it, and you're going to learn. You're going to not... Relax. You know, just relax. And don't worry so much about, you know...

finding the answers and finding love and finding, you know, success. Just do your work, live your life, be kind, be good, pay your own electric bill. It's going to turn out okay. Yes. If you do that, have integrity, trust your integrity. Don't trust, you know, what somebody else thinks that you should be doing with your life. Trust your own integrity. Trust your gut. Yeah.

Which is, you know what? I ended up doing that and it ended up working out, didn't it? It always does.

Well, I am so inspired by this book. I would have to say, listen, I think everybody should have this little book by their nightstand. I think graduations are coming up. I'm giving it for graduations. Oh, thank you. I give it for birthdays. I give it, I'm thinking it's perfect for Mother's Day. That's right. It's just the book for all times. It's a book for all seasons. Thank you.

I'm so touched. You inspire me, Oprah. Oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. And thank you for inspiring us. Thank you for saying that. I love it. Thank you. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast.

Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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