Super Soul Special: Cookie Johnson: Why She Stood by Magic Through It All
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My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.

Magic Johnson announced his HIV diagnosis on November 7, 1991, just two months after Cookie and Magic were married. That year, AIDS had become the number one cause of death for men between the ages of 25 and 44. 157,000 people had died from what doctors considered an AIDS epidemic.

At the time, Magic Johnson was one of the most famous athletes in the world, having won five NBA championships with the LA Lakers. Magic's press conference remains one of the most unforgettable moments in sports history.

In an instant, Cookie's life was turned upside down in front of the entire world. In private, she was brought to her knees. For the first time, Cookie is telling her story in her new book, Believing in Magic. I just want to remind the world that in 1991,

People were still very, very afraid of AIDS. It was still like you can't touch a person, hug a person. Right. You know, that time was it was a really scary time because the people had just started hearing about, you know, AIDS. And they and it's funny because they heard they heard AIDS, but they never heard about HIV. Yes. You know, HIV is a virus that causes AIDS. So we all thought it was the same. Yeah. You just go straight to it's AIDS and it's death.

So it was a scary time. It was a scary time for us. It was a scary time for, you know, a lot of people. And then your husband, Irvin Magic Johnson, sort of became, not sort of, became the face for what was possible. I mean, I have to say that when that announcement, we all remember where we were. I don't think anybody believed that we'd be sitting here 25 years with Magic with us. Nobody believed that. No, they used to say he's in denial. Yeah. That's a

first thing right after that conference all the you know press after that oh he's in denial yeah he has no idea you know really but the truth is you you all didn't know either right and now you you have 25 years decided to tell your story my story of love overcoming adversity and keeping the faith believing in magic great title by the way

- Thank you. - Great, great, great, great title. - Yeah. - Why do you think it was important 25 years into the marriage for you

to tell your story? Well, first of all, it's just a good time for me and my life. You know, the kids are grown and, you know, I started my business. So, you know, I have my thing going on. He has his thing going on. But when I started my denim line and I used to go around, I did personal appearances in stores and stuff. Yeah.

Cookie John said I'm wearing the jeans. That's why I'm in jeans and she's all pretty fired up in her dress. I have to wear my jeans, my cookie jeans. So go ahead. I'm sorry. Okay. So when I did my personal appearances, women would come up to me and say, I came, I wanted to come say hello to you because you have no idea what pulled me aside.

They didn't come just to see the genes. They came to tell me that, you know, your story has inspired me. Your story helped save my marriage or your story, you know, I have a family member with HIV and your story helped us. And that kept happening time and time again. - And you could see that even though people had similar stories, not necessarily HIV stories or AIDS stories, that the faith part,

the standing by, believing, overcoming adversity part that you speak of in Believing in Magic was what people were connecting to. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. And because I never could have made it through without that faith. Yeah. You know, and I could start telling you about the journey, about that, but...

Because, you know, God was all in it. But God is never not in it. No. And my life, too, from the very beginning. I just felt like he's always drawn me to him. And so I felt that, you know, I had to find out what my purpose was. What did he want me to do? Well, it's interesting because...

I just finished reading the book last night and I'm saying, whoa, you are a determined woman. You must have had a call deeper than most people. You literally got stood up, not at the altar, but you and Magic were engaged twice. Twice. Not once, twice. A lot of people didn't know that. I always say, when people show you who they are, believe them. The first time, then the second time, then a third time. He tried to break up a third time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At what point in the relationship did you have to go to your inner spiritual connection to something bigger than yourself, to God? At what point, literally, in the relationship did you have to go to your knees? In the beginning, it was when we broke our first engagement.

I was devastated. I was devastated because, you know, it was an announcement the whole world knew. And I was just in the beginning stages of starting to plan the wedding. So looking for a church or whatever. So you were humiliated. You were publicly humiliated. Totally humiliated. Yeah. And then, you know, like, how do I show my face at work? Yeah. You know, and after you've told everybody, it's like your whole world is crushed.

At 26, you know, a young 26-year-old, you thought your whole entire world was crushed. And at that point, that's when I had to reach back and find God. You know, God was always in my life. I was always going to church. I used to go to Bible study sometime in high school. But then you kind of went away from it when you got to college, you know, hanging out and whatever. But at this point...

I was close to a nervous breakdown, I felt. Really? How do I recover from this? How do I tell my friends? How do I show my faith at work? Because your identity was tied to that. Totally tied to him. Totally tied to him. And so that's when I said, you know, I just started praying, Lord, you're going to have to help me with this. And one day I was talking to my girlfriend who was married to a player also, and she told me her story. She said that when she went through that, that she just...

decided that she needed to connect with God. And she said, what you have to do is you have to figure out

You know, you have to go to God and then find out what is your purpose in life and what makes you happy. Yeah. Let's focus on you. And the point of me spending all this time talking about what happened before you got married is that you went through a lot, a lot of years, a lot of breakups, a lot of that. Then you get married. And two months after you're married, he comes home, he calls you and says...

-I need to talk to you. -Yes. In that voice of, "You know something's wrong, but you don't know what it really is." What did you-- From the time he called you,

to the time he actually got home, what did you think it was? Because your mind goes through. It was crazy. You know, I thought, is he going to... Like, is it the marriage? Is he going to break up with me again? What is it? You know? And then I thought... Is it something with the coaches? Yeah. Is it something with the... Yeah, is he going to change the team? He didn't like his coach? I didn't know. And then I thought, well...

is he sick? Maybe he's sick, you know, because he did say that he had to go see the doctor. And I was like, what is that? I didn't know. I just, you know, fear just started, you know, taking over me. And I just didn't know what to do. And then I got the phone call. And it just, you know, I don't know. Just fear took over me. And I just had to... Because you could tell in his tone that it was something. It was something bad. So he comes home. Are you home alone?

- When he comes home? - Well, yeah. I'm home alone and he finally walks through the door. And at this point I'm kind of shaking because I'm like, what is it? - What is it? Yes. - What could it be? - Yes. - You know? And he came in slowly and he just, you know, he said, "I don't know how else to tell you. I'm just gonna tell you." And I'm like, "What?" You know, and it's so funny 'cause I literally joked and said, "What, you gonna tell me you're gonna eat or something?" You know, I literally joked and said that. And he was like, "Yeah."

- What? - I have HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. And I was just like, oh my God. It was like time stopped. I like froze. You know, I'm standing there looking at him and I couldn't move.

And a moment later, like, tears are flowing down. And I was like, are you sure? You know, did they make a mistake? You know, and he said, well, I'm going to, I have to go to the doctor tomorrow to double check. Well, he said he took a test. So he was waiting, you know, we got to wait until the test comes back. But I got to take you tomorrow and get you tested. Then that was another fear. I'm like, oh, my God. You know, myself. And then I thought, oh, my God.

I'm pregnant. What about the baby? You know, and it was just like, it took every strength in me to keep standing. And then, you know, and then I just, you know, I don't know. I just grabbed him and I hugged him and, you know, we hugged each other and we just cried together. Um,

Um, you know, and it was silence. And then he, he pulled himself back and he said, you know, you can leave me if you want. I totally understand. I would not want to put you through this. And that's when I was just like, I just kind of like slapped him and said, are you, are you kidding? No, I love you. We're going to, we're going to figure this thing out. We're going to figure this thing out together, you know? And, and then the next thing we did was we got on our knees and we prayed and we asked God for a miracle.

and ask God to give us strength to make it through this. Were you asking for a miracle, for a cure? Were you asking for life? Were you asking for...

Or just... All of it. Help! All of the above. Help! Yeah, all of the above. But the first thing, of course, you're thinking of a miracle for, you know, a cure. Yes. You know, that he would miraculously be healed. Yes. You know. Yes. Yeah. Are you still quoting 30-year-old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted?

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And so then you go and get tested and it was 12 days, I read. Yes, that was awesome. 12 days. Are you still believing in magic in those 12 days? No, I have to tell you, it was a little bit of both. But you know, I never, because you're in the midst of it and we're talking life and death, I never thought once.

that I didn't want to be with him and I didn't want to love him. And I didn't want to stay married. Never once did I do that. Did you ask the why me question though? Did you not get angry? Not really. I was too scared to get angry. Okay. For some reason I had more, I got scared and had fear before I had anger. Okay. Yeah, you jumped the stage. Did you not want to know who

when, how? Later on, of course, you know, once things settle down a little bit, then I start wondering, you know. You describe a moment where he goes into the room, he closes the door, and he's calling all the women he's been with. And one of the things I thought...

That could have took a couple days. Yeah, it did. I was going to say. Yeah, it did. I would say that would not be like... That was a little wake-up call for me. It would take a couple days to call all the women you've been with. Yeah, yeah. And that part I didn't like much. That part hurt, you know, a little bit. Was that a wake-up call for you because you had been thinking what? What?

You know, it's really interesting, Oprah, because it's like with our relationship being, you know, long distance most of the time, you know, it was like when we were together, everything was peachy cream. Everything was great. You know, so when we weren't together, it's not that I said, hey, go do whatever you want to do. No, we had a real relationship. It wasn't like that. So were you under some kind of illusion that you were the only one?

Well, here's what I had to do, which I think most women at some point you're going to just have to do it. You have to assume a certain amount of trust. So I decided to trust him. I decided to trust him. And yes, I trusted that he was not out there doing all that. And then, you know, and then he had to trust me also. So yes, I did trust him and think that he, I didn't think he was out there doing all that.

No. You know, and then if he was, you know, when things came up, we broke up, you know, whatever, when things happened. But you can't have a relationship without having trust. So you have to say to yourself, I just, I'm just going to have, I trust him. So when he goes into the room and he's making all the phone calls, you were saying in the book,

believing in magic that that was that was difficult for you and in some ways painful I don't remember the exact words but painful and when I read that I think oh painful because now you have the realization you come face to face with the realization yeah that there were a lot of other women other than yourself right but we also have to remember too that

With HIV and AIDS, you could have been with somebody for 10 years ago. Yeah. And it could have been that person. Yeah. So you have to call people from 10 years almost. You know what I'm saying? So at what point, you know, are these old relationships? Are they new relationships? I don't know. I didn't ask all those questions. I just know he had to make some phone calls. Make some phone calls. And, you know, again, there was a lot of breakups in the middle of that road to that relationship.

That you all had had. Yeah, there were two four-year breakups by the time we got to this, the point that we're talking about right now. Yeah, I got that. Which is marriage. I got that. So one of the reasons why you slapped him is because you...

were committed to the vows that you had said just two months earlier. Those vows meant to death do us part, through sickness and in health, meant something to you. They did. And the love that we shared. Because we, you know, he genuinely did love me and I genuinely loved him from, you know, from way back. That's why you hung in. Which is why we kept coming back to each other. But it's just that deep love that we had in the beginning because I met him as Irvin, not as Magic.

And he was that fun-loving, very generous guy with the big laugh and the big smile and the big eyes. That is who he is. That's who I fell in love with. So did faith, a belief in God, trusting that it would all be all right, is that what got you through that time? Because...

Obviously, he started a regimen of antiretrovirals. The rest of the world doesn't even know what that is. I think because of Magic Johnson, we got introduced to that in a way that we wouldn't have understood. He's like our family member getting treatment. But what actually got you through it? God. God. God got me through it. And deepening my faith and reading the word and understanding, you know, like...

When you want God to give you a miracle, you have to understand how to get that miracle. You can't just say, Lord, give me a miracle and it's just going to happen like you can. But, you know, you also got to work for it in a sense. So you have to understand his word and what does he say about faith? So you find out that that's one of your scriptures that you can hold on to when you're believing for a miracle with health or something like that, when you want to be healed.

And so you learn. I learned all those scriptures and those promises that God, you know, actually going to Bible study. Correct. Yeah. I started then. Yeah. I didn't used to go. That's what I'm saying. I was I always went to church, but it was religion. I went to church, you know, on a Sunday and I felt like a good girl, you know. But this meant you got to dig in deep.

I need, you know, I need. What does my religion and my faith really mean? How does that show up for me? That's right. But how do you use it? Yeah. Like, and how do you develop? I had to learn. I had to understand, too. And that's what my friend was telling me. You have to learn to develop a relationship with God, you know, not just with religion, going to church, but with God himself. Develop a relationship with the two of you and how you do that. You pray and you praise. But I didn't know that until I started going to Bible study.

And they teach you that. They taught us the proper way to pray. They taught me praising Him and how if you praise God that He comes down. He inhabits the praises of His people. So when you praise Him, He just comes down and He's right there with you and right in the midst of you. And I didn't know any of that until I started going to Bible study and started studying the Bible and understanding the Word. Well,

As you're saying that, it makes me think of one of my favorite books, Alice Walker, The Color Purple, and what the character Shug says to Celie at the end of the book. God gets pissed if you don't notice the color purple. And Celie says whatever she says, and then Shug says, because what God loves most is praise. What God loves is praise.

That's right. Yeah. God loves praise. That's like the answer, the key to everything, really. And so I gained strength from him, you know, from the word and leaning on those words and using those words all the time. And even though, Oprah, I know I said, you know, that my husband's going to be healed and I believe it and I still believe that he is healed, you know, 25 years later, you know,

Of course, it wasn't this big miracle where it's completely gone. But, you know, God can heal people through doctors, through medicine, you know. The medicine was available to help him live a, quote, normal life. And he became the face of that in a way that, I mean, so I think God used him. Yes. No question about that. Yes. For our time. That's right. Yeah. Yep.

Yep. And sometimes our trials are for a reason. Yes. And it's for us to learn, but it's also for us to give back to the world, you know, to whatever that lesson was. Yes. Fly Stone became an icon. A Hulu original from Questlove.

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Irvin Johnson III, known as EJ, was born just seven months after Magic Johnson announced his HIV diagnosis. EJ, like his mother, was not infected with the virus. In 2013, a video of EJ holding hands with a male friend went viral. The day after the video was released, Magic showed his support for his son.

EJ would go on to star in two reality shows, Rich Kids at Beverly Hills and EJ NYC, where he became known for his gender-bending style.

Let's talk about EJ. You begin the chapter talking about the twirling skirt with the colors that your mother was wearing and how fascinated he was by the twirling skirt that your mother was wearing, right? Yeah, this was about three years old and it was after his glasses. The minute he got his glasses over, he just started walking around the room like, oh my God.

Really? Look at the colors. Look at the things. And he would start touching things. So if I had this on, he would come over and look at the prints and feel the fabric. And he loved things like that. And

My mother wore, like, full skirts then because that was in style. And he just loved it. He wanted to wear a skirt like her and twirl around in it all the time. And he would say, Granny, put on that skirt and let's twirl. Let's dance, you know. And she would twirl around with him, you know. You tell a very funny story of being in T-Ball and waiting for him to get the ball. Yeah. And he's, like, overpicking some yellow flowers. Going, Mommy, look. Look at the flowers. I picked them for you. And I'm like...

Oh, my God. Boy, get the ball. Would you get the ball, son? That's what I knew. Okay. Then my husband said, okay, stop. No more sports for him. He's good. Was Magic upset that he wasn't the sportsman? No, he wasn't upset about that because he knows from time to time that, you know, a lot of athletes' children. Want their kids to be. Yeah, they have to live in that limelight. They have to live in that, and it's too hard.

So when he saw that, he didn't have a problem with that at all. You know, he said, let him do what he wants to do. But I don't think he realized at that time that what he wanted to do was wear girly stuff and be girly. Then there was a moment in Hawaii, I think you were on vacation. Yeah, by that time he was an adolescent and he was probably...

12 or so. And I saw him with one of his friends and they were sitting in the chairs and you know, that's around the time when they started looking at boys and girls and whatever. Yeah, I think it was 12 or 13. And these boys walked by and I was sitting behind them. I don't even know if they knew I was back there. And the boys walked by and he was like, oh, I like that. And I'm thinking, where's the girl? That was...

that was a boy and then it dawned on me okay so this is it he's not going to change he hasn't not dawned really confirmed confirmed for me yeah yeah yeah mom's no and you know and when a child is like that from the very beginning because then you start going back to three years old four years old five years old he never changed and so i pulled him aside and i told him i asked him about it and he said i said i saw you watching that guy i said so do you like boys

And he said, he just looked at me, got really quiet. He didn't know how to answer me. I could tell he's thinking. And he said, finally, he said, yeah, maybe. And I was like, I said, it's OK if you do. I saw you and I'm OK with it. I'm just letting you know that it's OK with me.

You know, and he said that is the biggest fear that every gay person I've ever talked to because we used to do coming out day on the open show. The biggest fear everybody has is that I will be rejected and I won't be loved. Right. Yeah. Right. So you told magic you had to tell your husband. Yeah. After I had that conversation with him, I said, I'm going to go tell him because he needs to be OK with this, too. Yeah. So I was not OK with it. Not at first. Not at first.

So he brought him in the room and he told him, you know, he said, your mother tells me that, you know, you might be gay. And he said, so I just want you to know that that's not my first choice for you. And I'm not really happy about that. But if that's really who you are, then OK, I'll accept it.

- You know, but I just-- - Was he angry? Was he-- - He wasn't angry, he was firm. - Yeah. Was there lots of tears, lots of drama? - A little bit of tears, just a little bit on my part, mostly. EJ held him back a little bit. I could see the sadness on his face. But he left. - Your father says I'm disappointed.

You know, I said, Irvin, I can't believe you did that. I said, because you got to remember, he is who he is, and he's going to be who he is. You know, you can't change him like that. Then the next day, he went back. The very next day, he went and grabbed him. And he told him how sorry he was, and he told him how much he loved him. And he said, no matter what-- you know, I'm getting teary-eyed. Makes me teary, too.

He said, no matter what, I am going to always be here for you. He said, and I, you know, he said, it was just a shock to me and I didn't know how to react to it. And I'm so sorry, you know, and then they both cried and hugged. And then that was, that was it. And from that day forward, we were both. So here's the big question. You're Christian. You believe in the word. Yeah. You live by the word. How did you reconcile what Christianity is?

says about being gay with your loving of your son and still remaining Christian. - Yeah, that was a very hard thing for me. That was a very, very hard thing for me. I tried everything, but finally I just said to myself, this child is innocent. He was like this when he was a baby. It can't be wrong. It can't be wrong.

Again, you were brought to your knees. Yes. So I had to pray about it. And so this was one of those moments where I had to go directly to God. And I prayed. And God, you know, the answer I got back was love. And he said, you know, I give you all great gifts. And the greatest of that gift is love. And so that's when I knew love.

I could love my son and support him on who he was. And I was okay with it because I made peace with God with it. So I'm good. Yeah, it's out there. So recently, I think there was some kind of crazy rumor that he was transitioning and he responded to it.

Is he going to transition? No, he's not. He's just a gay man. He's just young and he's experimental. You know what I mean? All kids are young and experimental. And he loves fashion. So for him, it's more about fashion than it is about transitioning. Right now. It's more about fashion. And he's never mentioned that to me that that's what he's interested in or wants to do. If he came home and said, I now want to be...

a woman, would you be okay with that? Yeah, I would have to deal with it. We would have to deal with it. And we would do what we needed to do to take care of it, you know what I mean? You'd be back on your knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would be there to support him, though. Yeah.

Yep. Because I know deep down that's, you know, who he is. Now, what is actually also, I think, not shocking, but probably surprising to a lot of people who will read this, is that after you've been through everything, everything,

Everything. You'd been standing by and going through the adversity. There came a point in your marriage where the marriage was really strained and you all separated. And how y'all did that in the tabloids and find out, I don't know. I mean...

I know. How did that happen in the tabloids? I know. Get that story. Well, because it was really quick. Yeah. It was like two weeks. Okay. Yeah, it was two weeks. But yeah, you know, as a marriage, you know, transitions and the journey goes on. What happens is sometimes, you know, the wife and the kids kind of move this way and, you know, your husband and he's out there working. Because you were mothering. And I wasn't working at the time.

Yeah. So I was I was most all into mothering. And he's into business. Yeah. And so it kind of pulled us apart a little bit. And on his side, he was building his businesses. He was getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and his ego was getting bigger and bigger. And, you know, so it just all became about work for him.

You know, everything was about work and how great we're doing and this and that. You know, so then he would just, he was always at work. He was creating another identity. Yeah, and another world, you know, and another world. Like he was always, you know, the people at work are getting together to watch the football game or we're at work, we're going here, we're doing that. And then he started going out with them more, you know, going out, partying and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. You write about a really...

Really? Yeah. A moment? Yeah, so the night he got his start, there was a big party. Oh, yeah, Hollywood Walk of Fame. Yeah, and then it just kind of came to a head for me, you know? And we were at the party, and he was dancing with some girls, and I was walking out. I was like, okay, so, you know, let's dance together or whatever. And he's like, no. And what you establish in the book is that...

you all are, like seven and I do this, you go to a party, you go your separate ways, but in the end when it comes to the dance floor, we're gonna get together. But I'm not like tied to your side, not to be by your side every moment. So you all have that kind of relationship. - But this particular time, it was like, I don't want you dancing with me, I'm gonna dance with these people over here. So that kinda got to me, because it had been boiling, boiling, boiling, boiling anyway.

And I lost it and said some things, and then he said some things. And so we were, that was our first kind of spat in public kind of thing. And then I left. I got, my friend took me home and I just left. And then we had a conversation about it at home afterwards. And, you know, we both felt like we were just kind of growing in two different ways. Cookie says guidance from their pastor and friends, plus a lot of prayer helped bring the couple back together.

In "Believing in Magic," Cookie writes, "We made an agreement. No matter what we were going through or how difficult it became, we would always talk about it. And that is a promise that we've kept." You know what's so interesting? When I first saw this as a title, I thought, "Wow." I think this is what every person, certainly every man and woman in relationship really want, is for somebody to believe in them. What did he think when you told him that this was going to be your title?

What did he think or say? You know, it's interesting because we play with it a lot, you know. And he's very supportive of me being my own woman and doing my own thing. And so when we talked about that and I brought it up to him, he was like,

but it's really true. He's like, I like it because it's really true. And I was surprised because, you know, I thought he was going to say, no, this is about you. Yeah. But he said, no, I like it. It's really true. And it shows who we are, basically. Wow. It represents us. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It was fun. Fun, fun, fun.

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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