The Korean Empire
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Hello. In October 1897, the King of Korea declared himself emperor to match the status of the neighbouring Russian, Chinese and Japanese emperors with Korea's peninsula, his empire. This was a bid for independence and sovereignty when the world's major powers, including those in Europe and America, either wanted to open Korea up to trade or to colonise it.

The Korean Empire lasted only 13 years, yet it was a time of great transformation for this state and the whole region, marked by modernisation and wars with lasting consequences. With me to discuss the Korean Empire are Holly Stevens, lecturer in Japanese and Korean studies at the University of Edinburgh,

Derek Kramer, lecturer in Korean studies at the University of Sheffield, and Nuri Kim, associate professor in Korean studies at the Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge and fellow of Wollstone College. Let's start with you, Nuri. Who had been ruling Korea up to this point, up to the point where they declared themselves to be an empire?

So Korea is ruled by the Yi family, the Yi dynasty, which has been ruling Korea for about 500 years. 500 years. 500 years, yes. That's a very long time by any standards, especially compared to, let's say, even Chinese dynasties. The name of Korea is Joseon. That's the name of the dynasty. And again, it is a dynasty that has demonstrated remarkable survival skills since.

Time and time again, they were threatened by various forces, especially large-scale foreign invasions, for instance, in the 16th and 17th century, invasions by the Japanese, but also by the Manchus, who were taking over China as well. But time and time again, the Koreans managed and the dynasty managed to survive. So this attempt to turn Korea into an empire is very much another instance of

of the dynasty trying to prolong its lifespan, although this time it won't be quite as successful. Its big mountain was China. How did it deal with China? That is actually a very important question. How do you survive

when you're such a small country located at the doorsteps of this huge behemoth, which is China. And so Koreans had to use a lot of diplomatic finesse. They had to use a lot of flattery. And oftentimes they really had to buy into this role of being this very loyal vassal to China. How did they do that? They did so by sending a lot of tributary missions to China, sometimes even more missions than the Chinese even expected.

What was your mission? A tributary mission is when you send dozens, maybe even hundreds of delegates to China, along with a lot of tributes, actual presents. Gifts. Yes, gifts. It can be gold, it can be silver, it can be horses, it can be people, eunuchs and women. And were China edging to try to get hold of it? China, at least during the Joseon Dynasty, there was no attempt to actually take over Korea because Korea was...

doing such a good job playing that role of very loyal, very dutiful vassal state. So there was really no need for the Chinese to take over Korea. And this is what allowed Koreans to actually maintain a significant amount of autonomy. Where does the name Korea come from? The name Korea actually comes from this ancient kingdom called Goguryeo, which was established in the first century BC. Later on, the name was shortened to Goryeo.

And then later on, it was also revived in the 10th century by another Korean dynasty, which is called Goryeo Dynasty. And this is the time when Koreans had some very limited contact with merchants from the Middle East. And they then introduced the term to the West.

And Korea then becomes Korea. And this is, in some ways, it's an anachronistic term. It's referring to Korea by this very old name. And Koreans, of course, no longer use the term, but it's the term that has become the official term here in the West.

Holly, how had Europe and America been trying to open up Korea? Up until the mid 19th century, there's a certain amount of mutual disinterest, honestly, between Europe and America and Korea. On one side, the Koreans, through their regular tribute missions to China,

They have a window into seeing the events that are happening in China when the Europeans are getting involved in China and playing more of a role. And so on the Korean side, they see the potential engagement with the West as potentially disruptive, either through trade or through missionary activity. Catholicism is considered quite subversive. So on the Korean side, there's a lack of interest in engaging, especially because, as Nudie mentioned earlier,

The Koreans are trying to avoid giving China any excuse to interfere in Korean affairs. Korea really guards its autonomy. And so by deflecting Western engagement, Koreans believe that this will also prevent increased Chinese involvement in their affairs. On the European and American side...

There are some attempts to approach Korea, but this is really not a large scale or concerted organized effort. It's really individual ships chancing things, trying to show up and see if they can make any advance. But again, Korea is quite good at presenting itself as poor, lacking resources. And it basically tells them, go back to China and talk to China. We're not allowed to talk to you.

This changes somewhat in the mid-19th century. A French missionary actually sneaks into Korea and is discovered and is executed. And also an American trading ship tries to sail down the Taedong River and it is destroyed by the Koreans, including all of the crew.

And so from the mid-19th century, France and the United States, they act a little more aggressively toward Korea. They both send punitive missions in 1866 and 1871. But the Korean military is able to rebuff those quite well because they're relatively small scale. So why did it open up to Japan in 1876?

I think it's important to mention that Korea is still very wary of engagement with external, especially European and American countries at this time. However, things are changing somewhat. There is a growing consensus among at least some Korean and Chinese officials that contact with Western nations is inevitable to some extent.

And so even though there is this wariness, it's considered beneficial if Korea were to defensively engage with foreign powers. And so to prevent a larger scale military conflict. And so gradually, there are a small number of Chinese and Korean officials who come to share this understanding, especially looking at the experience of China and Japan and their inability to also prevent this kind of engagement from

Another change that we see, so Khojong the king came to the throne in 1864 when he was still a minor. And so for the first decade of his rule, his father, the Taewon-gun, ruled on his behalf. And the Taewon-gun was much more conservative in terms of his outlook and willingness to engage with foreign powers.

Kojong comes to the throne to rule for himself in 1873. And so he starts then to lean into this more moderate approach to cautiously engage with foreign powers. And so when Kojong is sending diplomatic missions to China, he's instructing some of those officials to find out more information. And so when the Japanese arrive in 1875, very much emulating how the Americans approached

Japan, the Koreans are ready. And so they do seize this opportunity to gradually open. Thank you. Derek Kramer. So Korea's looking around in the 1880s, seeing what others are doing. How did Korea start to modernize? So at the time, there's very few people who are using the language of modernization. Generally, the conversation is about engagement and opening up.

And this happens on two registers. Holly already mentioned the types of debates that are happening at the level of elite politics. And we see the robust agency of this individual. We call him the Taewongun. He's a regent, Kojong's father, who is on the one hand trying to simply solidify state power, both because he's acting as a regent and that serves him well, but also because of a certain uncertainty or concern about

regional shifts and the overall stability of the peninsula. And so the types of reforms that are being pursued at this time at the level of elite politics are usually characterized through state centralization projects. The two big ones would be the reconstruction of Gyeongbok Palace in downtown Seoul. And this is, if you see a map of Korea or if you

If you tour through Seoul today, this is always like a popular tourist site. It's sort of the center of the city. This was initially constructed when Seoul was established as the capital of the dynasty. It was destroyed during those invasions by the Japanese that Nurya had mentioned. It's in the 1860s that Kojong decides he's going to reconstruct the palace. However, he does this by way of issuing currency. So it's the start of decades of inflationary tendencies within the Korean economy. But this is one of the sort of

two major interventions by the state at the elite level. The other is the construction of a modern military, the attempt to develop this. This is following the signing of the Kongwa Treaty in 1876. A single unit within the Korean military is selected for modernization, new uniforms, new tactics, new training. So all this is happening at the level of elite politics, and you have

various political factions debating about like, how do we want to engage with the outside world? What is our policy towards Japan going to be? How do we cooperate with the Chinese while maintaining our sovereignty?

At the same time, at the level of the everyday and at the level of socioeconomic exchange, Korea is in the midst of an enormous amount of tumult, right? There's the effects of the Colombian exchange, right? For the preceding couple of centuries, you have new crops, new markets emerging, shifts in the demographic composition of the peninsula, and new ideas circulating in.

But Korea still caught up in the competition between its neighbors. How and why did China reassert itself in the 1880s? The reassertion of Chinese presence on the peninsula goes back to that new army that I mentioned, one of those reforms that characterizes some of the shifts that Kojong is pursuing.

These soldiers are paid by gleaning the salaries from the other units in the Korean army that weren't selected for modernization. And eventually, these neglected units within the Korean military, they rise up in this event called the Imokunran or Imomutiny. And they basically run amok in Seoul, targeting their perceived political opponents, burning down the Japanese consulate.

The solution to this instability is the dispatchment of troops from China who move into the peninsula. It's the start of a phase of Chinese political and economic presence on the peninsula. Along the way, there are new trade agreements that are being signed. There's the circulation of traders and businessmen from China throughout the peninsula.

and a more robust presence of Chinese forces within the political sphere and the economic sphere of the peninsula in the 1880s. Can I follow that up with you, Nuri? How much turmoil was Korea facing in the lead up to 1897? Seems to be pulled in many directions. Yes, absolutely. There was a tremendous amount of turmoil.

For instance, in 1884, there was this attempt to overthrow the government by radical reformers. They were not successful. Why were they not successful? Because they didn't have enough of a support base. They were very young, radical reformers, but they were a little bit too far ahead of their times. Korean society didn't have...

necessarily an appetite for those radical reforms yet. And then, of course, we also have the emergence of new religious movements at this time, and especially millenarian movements. That led to the 1894 Tonghak Rebellion, which was the largest rebellion that the Chosun dynasty had to face throughout its history.

That rebellion then led to the intervention of both China and Japan, which led then to the first Sino-Japanese War. And the war is fought on Korean soil over who gets to dominate Korea. Another thing that's taking place is, so for instance, the Japanese are now trying to assert themselves. As part of that, they actually assassinate the wife of the king, Queen Min.

In response to that, the Korean king flees to the Russian legation. So Russia now plays a significant role in the Korean context as well. And the Korean government, the Korean monarch, they begin to side with the Russians. They begin to learn from the Russians. And partially a result of that is then this transformation into the Korean empire.

Thank you. Holly, Holly Stevens. Why did Goh Jong, the king, why did he want to declare an empire and himself emperor in 1897? This addresses several different issues that have been fomenting in Korean politics for a while. On one hand, this really is the final severance of that traditional relationship that Korea has had with China. China has already lost the Sino-Japanese War.

And so this really is Korea formally and symbolically announcing itself as equal to China and also independent. And we can see this in some of the symbols that Gojong adopts in declaring the Korean empire. So traditionally, Gojong as king, right, which would be lower than the Chinese emperor, he would wear red robes. And it was the Chinese emperor that wore yellow robes.

But after declaring himself an emperor, Kojong sometimes wears the yellow robes, right, to formally symbolize to China that there is this big shift in their relationship. At the same time, as Nuri mentioned, in the midst of the Sino-Japanese War, there's some large scale events.

of the Korean government that have taken place. And this really then establishes a quote-unquote modern system of government for Korea. Thank you. Derek, what modernizations were underway? Can we specify those? So there are a lot of changes afoot and they're happening across multiple registers.

The opening of ports is allowing for the influx of commodities that are transforming the rural economies in really profound ways. Inflation that I mentioned when they rebuilt the palace, this is exasperated by the outflow of rice into regional markets, driving up the price of rice. That's something you eat, but rice is also something you buy with. It's currency, right?

At the same time, you're having an influx of quality manufactured goods from abroad. So maybe you and your family had major living, I don't know, as leather workers or making straw shoes. And suddenly you're competing with the products of an increasingly industrialized form of capitalism in Asia. So there is a tumult at that level. There's also transformations, though, in the realm of politics. We were at this point focusing on

on royal politics and elite politics. But with the emergence of the empire, ironically, there's also a new emphasis on the role of the citizen, the independence club. Part of their activism is built around working through newspapers and circulating new types of ideas,

about what a citizen should be and how they should express themselves as Koreans. And that has a lot to do with the language that they're using, the types of scripts they're using, and the ways that they're thinking about China in particular. Thank you. Nuri, there were so many other emperors and empires around the world at that time. What did empire mean to Korea? For Koreans, it largely meant an assertion of national sovereignty and obtaining parity with surrounding countries, especially Russia,

Japan and China. So it wasn't really about obtaining colonies and launching overseas expeditions. Koreans really couldn't afford these things. They couldn't even think about these things at this time. And in fact, it's very telling to look at the first act that the emperor conducted as he was ascending to the imperial throne. The first thing that he did was to actually set up an

an altar, a heaven worship altar that was... Heaven worship. Yes, heaven worship altar that was very much emulating the Chinese version that exists in Beijing. And he would conduct ceremonial offerings at the altar. Why was that so important, a heaven worship altar?

Because this allowed him then to proclaim himself to be the son of heaven, which is the emperor. So he was very much using the more traditional Chinese symbolisms to assert his own imperial power. So this is an act of, in a way, defiance against the Chinese, because previously it was only the Chinese emperor who was able to communicate with heaven directly and consider himself emperor.

the son of heaven. But now the Korean king is making the same claim. So he's achieving parity with China. Thank you, Derek. I also need to note, though, that that intellectual movement, these reformers who are producing newspapers and trying to basically mobilize the citizenry of the peninsula to embrace the

global norms of civilization and enlightenment, they often do not articulate a robust critique of empire. So in particular, the Independence Club, their newspaper, The Independent, would often celebrate the British Empire for being so successful.

And they would use that as a criticism of Koreans and of their own political position. This becomes a point of tension and irony once they themselves find themselves exposed to the interventions of a regional imperial power.

Yes.

In Korean affairs, Korea tries to then rely on the Americans. And when the Japanese overstep and their bounds, Korea then tries to use interest from the Russians to counterbalance some of the demands from other powers. And so this, it worked for a while, but ultimately, it doesn't really prevent what happens later.

And then also they're mobilizing new ideas as well, right? So we've been talking about basically nationalism a lot, but this is also the era where we're seeing new ideas about racial solidarity and pan-Asianism and how different powers, different polities in Asia in particular should collaborate and work together is a point of discussion and dissent at this time.

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Can I come back to you for a moment, Holly? States need money, of course. Where did the new empire get its money, its wealth from to modernize? This is also one of the challenges that the Korean empire is facing. At this time, Chosun is an agrarian economy. And so even though for several hundred years it's had relatively stable finances, even to the point of being able to mobilize funds to support famine relief,

When it comes to modernization projects, a lot of these are very expensive. What projects are they? Before you tell us how expensive they are. Improving the military, upgrading some of the military, but also introducing new infrastructure like telegraph communications, importing new technologies.

electrifying some of the palaces and introducing electricity. It's hard to finance them from the existing sources of finance. The land tax provides the majority of the Chosun state's income at this time. However, there's only so far you can raise that before you start to then provide frustration and prompt sources of rebellion and revolt in the countryside.

One of the first projects that the Korean Empire does engage in is a large scale land survey, trying to get more land onto the tax registers and increase tax receipts in that way. But this is a slow process. And again, there's a limit to how high you can raise your income from the land tax.

Other sources of finance, there's some new revenue coming from customs receipts for the new trade that is taking place in the port cities. However, there are limits just based on the volume of trade that is taking place, as well as some of the terms of the treaties are unfavorable, right? Some of these treaties that Korea has signed, they do mimic some of the unequal treaties in a way that we see in China and Japan. And so it's not quite as favorable to Korea as it could be.

Other sources of income also come with problems. So Korea can get loans, and it does get loans, chiefly from China and Japan. However, some of this comes with strings attached, especially when China and Japan are both trying to increase their political influence in Korea. And indeed, eventually, when Japan does try to leverage more of its interest in Korean politics, it uses these loans as a justification to have a greater sway in Korean politics.

actively mimicking what Britain was doing in Egypt, using the loans as a pretext for further involvement in Korean politics. Thank you. Derek Kramer, can you talk about the kind of backing, can we specify more, that the changes were getting inside Korea? So one of the issues is that it's difficult to reach a consensus about what type of change is necessary.

There's a broad understanding at this time that there are global standards and global norms that have to be reached, that have to be entrenched within Korea. But no one is on the same page about what that might be. So if you're a missionary or a Christian convert, you might think that becoming a Protestant is conditional for establishing both oneself and the nation as autonomous and enlightened and civilized.

It might be cutting your hair. It might be buying a certain product. The discussion at this time about civilization and enlightenment, about modernization in general, is playing out in a variety of ways. But generally, the case study that's referenced as being successful is Japan.

amongst a variety of individuals and a variety of views. So just to say one, conservative Confucians at this time are worried about all the changes that are being presented, movement away from a traditional examination system, for example, that's based off of the Confucian classics.

And the argument that they would mobilize individuals who were sympathetic for the continuity of using a Confucian-based education system was occasionally that they would cite the Japanese and say, look, the Japanese, as the success story of modernization, have retained these traditions, retained this curriculum in a new way. There's similar debates underway about the use of language and about gender and class roles today.

So there is a consensus at the time that Korea is in a very difficult position. There's a lot of parallels being made between what's happening in Korea and what's happening in Egypt and what's happening in Korea to Vietnam or the Philippines. But there's a lack of consensus about what should be done or indeed what could be done. Thank you. Nuri Kim, what signs were there that Koreans themselves were developing in ideas of what it meant to be part of this new nation, this new world in a way?

Yes, there were many, many signs. So, for instance, there were new ways of writing Korean history emerging at this time. And history begins to be written in a way that emphasizes Korea's autonomy from China. Korean mythology is being rediscovered and reinterpreted to give Koreans a new useful past.

We also see a re-evaluation of the Korean vernacular writing system, which had existed for a couple of hundred years by this point, but within government circles and especially among the elite, it was still classical Chinese that was the lingua franca. So now you see intellectuals emerging who are publishing entirely in a vernacular Korean writing system. At the same time, as Derek mentioned, there were still a lot of divisions. Koreans are not all in agreement about what the new Korean nation should look like.

Some people want to have more political participation. They want to have a parliament. They want to check the king's power. Of course, this leads to conflict with the government. But there are also other Koreans who envision Korea's future as part of this kind of pan-Asian community with Japan as the leader. And those people then would ironically begin to support the Japanese takeover of Korea. So you see, you have these widely diverging visions of what Korea should look like.

And again, maybe this is also one of the reasons why there was actually so much resistance against the Korean Empire, even domestically from within Korea. Holly, if you were to look around the streets of Seoul, say, what changes would you be seeing?

There are some infrastructural changes. Seoul gets a tram, a streetcar. There's electricity. And the electric company actually introduces films, movies, as a trying to just like raise more money because not enough people are buying the tram tickets. I think, though, like Derek mentioned earlier, haircuts. And I think this points to some of the bigger, deeper changes that are taking place, right? Because there is a rural-urban divide still. A lot of the changes in Seoul...

They're limited to Seoul, but we can see this broader consensus forming around the need to reform. So in 1895, this is when Kodong announces a decree requiring Korean males to cut their hair. So traditionally, Koreans had long hair. It was believed under Confucian thought that you receive your body from your parents.

And so you should not harm your body in any way. And that extends to cutting your hair. So Korean males, especially elites, in order to prove their adherence to Confucian norms, which was one of the ways that they proved themselves as an elite in society, they maintained long hair. And especially the elites as well, they would form it in a top knot. And this also then grew to have a lot of symbolism for adulthood, masculinity in society. So when Gojong requires males to cut their hair, this is incredibly controversial in 1895.

The justification from Ko Chong is that this is more efficient, more economic, it's more hygienic, it's a symbol of modernity. And yet it goes against a lot of the long standing ideas that a lot of people had about their country and their place in the country. So there's quite widespread resistance to this.

How successful was the resistance? Really quite successful. So initially, Kodong required people to cut their hair, and this gets walked back. It's become encouraged for people to cut their hair. Also, you see quite extreme levels of resistance. Some people commit suicide, either males or wives, on behalf of their husbands for the shame of having to cut their hair. There are other people who close some of their shops in Seoul because they don't want to comply with the order, so they basically retreat from public life.

So this is quite disruptive in 1895. However, throughout the following decade of the Korean Empire period, gradually more and more groups come to support this idea that, you know, you should prove your commitment to modernity by cutting your hair. So we see, I think Nuri mentioned the Tonghak rebels earlier. They had...

quite or wrapped up in some of the initial complaints of the Tonghak uprising were more antipathy against some of the reforms. However, after the rebellion is put down, they split into some of these different groups and these subsequent groups actually come out on the side of cutting one's hair and advocating for haircutting.

There's still a rural-urban divide. By the early 20th century, in the port cities and cities, you're more likely to find, though, people with short hair. And this becomes voluntary and encouraged for a variety of different reasons.

Thank you. Derek, in 1905, the Japanese and Russian empires were at war and Japan won. How did that affect Korea? This affected Korea profoundly. The war itself had its origins in the Sino-Japanese War and the feeling on the part of the Japanese that their claims over Manchuria were frustrated by Russian, German and French intervention at the end of that war.

After the Boxer Rebellion in China at the start of the century, war again breaks out on the peninsula between the Russians and the Japanese.

This is initially viewed through the lens of race. This is the great race war of the 20th century. Certainly it was viewed in Europe as a war between white European civilization versus Asia. But also in East Asia, this is less well known, but it's also viewed through this lens. And so there is initially the hope amongst many reformers that there would be a type of

regional solidarity or a type of federation. Sometimes people would make analogies to the Austro-Hungarian Empire that whatever came out of this war would result in sovereignty, cooperation and continued modernization between the great powers of East Asia.

In fact, what happened was the consolidation of Japanese imperial power over the peninsula. Over the course of this conflict, they build a railroad from Pusan all the way up the peninsula to Manchuria. Eventually, the Japanese, upon the conclusion of the war, begin to slow walk annexation or a series of policies geared towards eventual annexation. This most profoundly takes form through the establishment of a protectorate

in 1907. How did the Koreans recognize when their empire was over, Nuri? So I think they already knew it by 1905. And this is when Korea becomes a Japanese protectorate, which means that Korea can no longer represent itself diplomatically to the outside world. And at this time, you have the emergence of righteous armies, people who are rising up against this

What did a righteous army do? Why were they righteous? This is a term that Koreans were using. These are, in a way, guerrilla fighters who are fighting against the Japanese at this time. Sometimes they also fight against Korean government forces, people who are disgruntled and dissatisfied with the political changes that are taking place at this time.

You also have people committing suicide in 1905 once they hear about this Protectorate Treaty. So I believe that many people already knew that that was the end. Although, of course, the official end of the Korean Empire is going to be 1910. But by 1905, they already knew what was coming.

Do you want to add anything more at this stage, sir? The type of irony, or not maybe irony, but the type of conundrum that the question of modernization and modernity forces upon individuals who are trying to avoid colonization.

So the individuals that I was focusing on, the intellectuals who stay in the city and are publishing these newspapers and circulating ideas about civilization and enlightenment, they're often pointing to Japan as a success case to say, this is what we need. We need a railroad. We need hospitals. We need more hygiene. We need to cut our hair, a new education system. We need different types of

political reform, constantly referring to either figments of European political culture or reforms done in Japan. What happens after 1905 is that the Japanese colonial state arrives and says, hey, you want those things? We'll give them to you, right? We'll build you a railroad. We're going to build you a hospital.

a hospital. We're going to implement educational reform. And it becomes very difficult for intellectuals who are pursuing a type of nationalist politics to find traction when their goals of modernization are articulated through the language of empire.

How did Koreans build a sense of nationhood while under Japanese control? From 1910 onward, when Japan formally annexes Korea, any kind of political expression becomes very, very difficult within Korea. However, there were still a lot of Koreans outside of Korea. You have a very significant population of Koreans in Manchuria, in China, in Japan, as well as in the United States. And those people are the ones who continue to develop ideas about Korean nationhood and Korean nationalism.

Now, because Koreans are scattered across the world, they all imbibe influence from different sources. And because of that, they also develop very different ideas of what the future of Korea should look like.

Some people would support a democratic system that Korea should look like more like a Western democratic country, whereas other people, they now look toward, for instance, Soviet Russia, and they take inspiration from Soviet Russia, and they believe that Korea's future lies with communism. So again, you have very widely diverging views of what Korea should look like.

And these views then all in some ways begin to be reflected later on after 1945 in North and South Korea, and especially the competition between North and South Korea. Derek, would you like to come in? Yeah, this is a really important point that connects to the character of the peninsula today. Most of our conversation we've been focusing on intellectuals in the city trying to work out what civilization and enlightenment, what modernization means for them and navigating the politics connected to that.

But throughout this period, starting in the 1890s and continuing on afterwards, there's just armed resistance in the countryside. It reaches a climax around the time of the Russo-Japanese War. And eventually individuals who are fighting against the colonization of the peninsula are pushed out of the peninsula into Manchuria. But it stands as the germ for two tracks of nationalist resistance.

one that tends to be a bit more urban, intellectual, gradual, and moderate, and one that tends to be a bit more violent, direct action-oriented, and that's unfolding outside of the peninsula. By the 1930s, the second of those two seems completely implausible, but by 1945, if you're someone like Kim Il-sung walking out of Manchuria, walking out of that tradition of armed resistance, you have an enormous amount of political capital and domestic influence

authenticity and authority that roots the establishment of the North Korean state. How did it go from one to the other? Yes. So in 1943, the Allied powers decide that, for instance, Korea will no longer be part of Japan once the war is over.

And then gradually they developed this idea that especially toward the end of World War II, that Korea should be divided into two for convenience sake. The North should be occupied by the Soviet forces. The South should be occupied by American forces.

But that was initially meant to be a temporary measure to disarm the Japanese. However, after 1945, once the Cold War sets in, of course, Americans and the Soviets, they're unable to agree on anything. They're unable to bring the two Koreas back together. And this then leads to this kind of perpetuation of the division between North and South Korea.

Derek, can you talk about this development from 1910 to 1945? It seems to be remarkable. 1910 to 1945 period, those are the two years that get booked in for Japanese colonization of the Korean Peninsula. I think as we've already discussed, it's a much more complicated story than that. But those are the two dates that will appear on a high school test, certainly.

And then that period is broken up into three chunks conventionally. The first is a phase of intensive military rule. The second is a period that is characterized by a period known as cultural rule that is characterized by a form of greater cultural expression and productivity. And then a final phase of wartime mobilization.

The main pivot points in that broader story is 1919, where there is a vast outpouring of political protest, popular protest on the Korean Peninsula connected to the March 1st movement.

The second pivot point is in the 1930s with the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War and the establishment of total warfare mobilization culture on the Korean Peninsula as the empire itself is pulled into these massive configurations with first the Chinese and later the Americans and British empires. Holly, what were the longer term implications of this period for Korea and the region's

That's a good question, because on one hand, it's a very short period of time. And it becomes even shorter when you start to factor in the increasing Japanese involvement. Japan declares Korea a protectorate in 1905. And so this starts to then limit some of the actions of the Korean government.

However, I think we've already talked about some of the longer standing legacies that do come out of this period. Nudie already mentioned nationalism, right? Some of these symbols of nationalism and the narratives that Koreans are telling themselves about their country and their history. A lot of these carry forward into subsequent ways that Koreans view themselves. We can also see changes in some of the institutional basis of the government.

So, you know, the idea that the government is trying to get involved in the economy to try and strengthen industry for Korea's own benefit. This continues into the colonial period, the colonial government. It changes the direction of some of this intervention, but it continues to build on some of these new mechanisms that the government has already established to try and intervene with the population and the economy worldwide.

We also see the beginnings of some of the modern education movement, especially in the growth of private schools, that just expand further once we get into the colonial period, as well as then some of these logics that will inform the independence movement into the colonial period. The idea that, you know, Koreans should strengthen themselves against foreign aggression. This then gets transformed into the idea that Koreans need to strengthen themselves to overthrow their imperial master. There's quite some continuities that carry forward.

Thank you. Derek, can I come back to you now? Are we approaching the time when we have a North and South divide in Korea? And if so, how did it come about and what did it mean? In terms of a reflection on the Empire of Korea, there is a pretty stark division. You can imagine in the North how all of this might be viewed. Okay, we have like an emperor who's decided that they're going to guide the way in

into the future through expressively non-democratic, but also not really informed by class, like any awareness or concern about class. And so in the North, the evaluation is that this is broadly a failed experiment. In the South, I think there's a bit more sympathy for the ideas and for the attempts by not just Kojong, but by

the kind of variety of political actors at the start of the 20th century who are trying to basically find their way out of what seems to be of what was indeed just a very difficult political set of circumstances. Not only that, but in the South in general, this period of time is brought into a larger story about the origins of political citizenship and

and broader ideas of equity and democratic structures, formations of governance. So it is a notable difference between the North and the South, the valuation of this period. So Nuri, coming to you first, how does this period in Korea now look to Koreans? So Koreans are very much divided on this. The scholarship is also divided on this.

I think you have some scholars who view this period more negatively, who blame the monarch for the loss of sovereignty. And of course, even back at the time, during the time, there was a lot of criticism of the monarch that maybe he's not doing enough, maybe he's not making the right choices, maybe he is still too much caught in the old ways because he was still consulting shamans and things like that. At the same time, there also seems to be a re-evaluation taking place

On the one hand, it seems to be just a very, very difficult situation to be in for the Korean monarch at the time. The question is, what could he have done to really avert Korea's fate? And the question is, maybe not much. Maybe he did the best that he could do, considering that most countries or many countries at the time were colonized.

to assume that Korea could have somehow averted that fate would assign too much uniqueness onto Korea. And that seems to be another scholarly perspective. So there seems to be also the emergence of this kind of more sympathetic view of this Korean monarch as this almost like tragic hero. Yeah, I would just add to that. I think one of the big changes has been for a lot of the previous history about this period. The big question was like,

why did Korea not maintain its sovereignty? And is it a success or a failure based on its ability to maintain its sovereignty? However, in more recent years, people have taken a much more expansive and holistic view of this period, trying to look for some of these longer changes that we've been talking about, right? Like looking at the nationalism, the birth of the publishing industry, broader social changes. And so when we look at the Korean empire in these terms, it does change our perspectives.

Thank you very much to Nuri Kim, to Holly Stevens and Derek Kramer. Next week, the physicist Lisa Meitner, widely recognised now for her crucial role in discovering nuclear fission. Thanks very much for listening. And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests. We'll start with you, Derek. What did you not get time to say that you would like to have said?

I think what I didn't get across was the degree of tumult that defined this period and that the breakdown of not just sort of the types of economic or social conditions, but epistemic formations that have been so important for people just to live their everyday lives. When you switch calendars, you are transforming how people are interfacing with everyday life,

which was one of the reforms. When you get rid of an examination system and change how individuals, intellectuals advance their ways, advance their careers, you're completely upending how knowledge is disseminated and circulated online.

When you go ahead and change national scripts and say that basically Chinese characters are anachronistic and backwards, you're challenging how knowledge is structured, what a canon even means.

I think often we feel like we're living in a time of change and rapid transformation. But I think in many ways, what we encounter today pales in comparison to the tumult that individuals living in the early 20th century, it pales in comparison to the tumult that characterized their life. Do you want to say anything?

For me, I think one of the things that I would like to reemphasize is the importance of religion and the importance and the prominence of religious movements. You have the emergence of native Korean new religious movements, but there's also, of course, the influx of Protestant Christianity, which is seeing a tremendous amount of success, even to the surprise of the missionaries themselves.

And these forces all play a significant role in shaping some of the political events. They play a significant role in shaping the direction of modernization and sources of modernization because Protestant Christianity also becomes a source of modernization in Korea at this time. So again, this kind of adds to this idea of Korea being torn into many different directions.

you have native religion, you have foreign religion, you have foreign political powers, but also foreign religion as a source, not just necessarily of oppression, but also of some sort of positive development. And a lot of people wonder why Protestant Christianity was so successful in Korea.

And this can be partially explained with reference to this period that Protestant Christianity did offer something to the Koreans at this point, and it was not necessarily connected to an imperial power, at least from the Korean perspective.

And what about you, Holly? I mean, we've focused a lot on Korea and issues taking place in Korea, and rightly so. But I think one thing we really also need to be aware of is that the scale of the international, if not hostility, but antipathy or indifference to Korean sovereignty at this time.

After the Sino-Japanese War, Japan actually tries to stake a claim on the Liaodong Peninsula, which is a part of China just to the northwest of Korea. And this is rebuffed. France, Germany and Russia, they intervene, known as the Triple Intervention, to basically deny their claim on behalf of Japan.

But what happens during the Korean Empire period, we start to see Japan making more and more agreements with other powers, in particular, the Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902 and the Taft-Katsuda Treaty with the United States in 1905, where Britain and the United States essentially recognize Japanese interests in Korea. And so when Japan starts to then more aggressively intervene in Korean politics and declare it a protectorate,

and start undermining some of the autonomy of the Korean government. Korea and Kodong, they try to appeal to other countries. They send an emissary to The Hague to try and drum up support against Japan. But a lot of the countries just turn a blind eye. And so this as well, I think, is one of the reasons why we shouldn't look or we shouldn't judge the Korean empire on its success to stave off foreign imperialism because to some extent this was out of Korean hands.

Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, my goodness. I'll have some tea, yes, please. Yeah, tea, please. Thank you. Thank you very much, Derek. Yeah. In Our Time with Melvin Bragg is produced by Simon Tillotson and it's a BBC Studios audio production. News moves fast, but understanding takes time.

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