You're one of the first ten employees. You're the first product manager was when he joined the founders kind of didn't really have an idea figured out yet when they landed in an idea and then ended up being wrong, ended up not working six weeks after joined, there is pivot.

No, we didn't really have like a solid product that we would have like tension fisting meetings every day was like potential customers. I was harried as the first product of manner I said in on those calls. I still exactly understand what we were gonna build, which was because I was a private matter, I was supposed to start building IT. And so at some point that was kind like, I have to ask, what exactly are we're doing .

here in that end of pivoting cloud security, like a bit thusia m like what that phase was like.

We really felt the type of questions changed, right? silly. The calls are like, again, how are you pricing this or when can we started doing A I think naturally, as human beings, you have a bias to look for affirmation. A bias look for what you don't want to hear.

You started as an engineer. He moved into product. And I your marketing, which is not a traditional path.

I had a times learn about marketing with what I knew really well.

Today, my guest as roz herzberg. Roz is chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at wiz before moving into marketing. Roz was an engineer and then for most of her career was a product manager prior to his rose lad security products and microsoft, including as her sentinel and IT was SHE moved from VP r product to cmo.

If you haven't heard of with, it's not only the world's fastest growing security company, is also the fastest growing software company in history, hitting a hundred million air r just eighteen months after founding. And then just under five years after founding, was rumor to be expLoring an acquisition by google for over twenty three billion dollars. Even more wild as you'll here in our conversation, the team initially went in circles on what they wanted to build, and IT took them awhile to actually land on the idea that is basically the most intense product market fit of any B2B com pany eve r.

In our conversation, russia, what signals told her in the team that the original idea wasn't going to work and that would change in their conversations when they finally found product market fit, why SHE moved into marketing, and what he wish he knew as a product leader from her new marketing lens, also her perspective on marketing, and what marketing people often get wrong, and y cm s often fail. Also something he calls the dummy explanation why you need to pay attention to where the heat is within your organization. SHE shares her continuing take on leadership.

And so much more. This was such a fun episode, and there's so much to learn t here for product leaders, for marketing leaders and for founders. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and followed in your favorite podcasting upper youtube.

It's the best way to avoid missing feda pisos and helps the forecast tremendously. With that, I bring you roz herzberg. Ross, thank you so much for being are welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

So start by giving a little context on with for folks s that aren't super familiar with the company you launched just under five years ago. At this point, within eighteen months, you all hit a hundred million A, R, which is the fastest girl threading history of any software company. It's faster than the two other companies. If I on the podcast that also claim to be the fastest curing software companies deal and rap, you guys grew even faster. I read that you are at over five hundred million air r now I know it's also not confirmed, but a certain company that rims with a lugal offers to buy you guys for a twenty three billion dollars and you all turn that down, decided to stay private and also something like fifty percent of fortune one hundred companies are customers of was is there anything I missed, anything I got wrong.

never heard of like that noodle company. But on the that yeah okay.

great. We're going to come back to that. What even crazy is in spite of that, when you join the company, you employee something like number or .

seven yeah we can't started like I do like the founders and link the first like six, seven employees we just started .

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okay. So you're for one of the first ten employees. You're the first product manager IT was. And what I read is that when he joined, the founders kind of didn't really have an idea figured out yet when they ended on an idea and then ended up being wrong, ended up networking. Six weeks after joined, there was a pivot.

So the fact that that was true, and you went from this lake, this isn't working to, boom. One hundred million dollars. A R, I want to spend some time here because I think there's a lot people can learn here. So let me just ask, looking back at that point, when the idea wasn't working to realizing, hey, maybe this is a Better idea, what do you remember, some signals that told you this isn't working? And OK, maybe this is because a lot of founders are in that stage with their products.

When when we started, I IT wasn't even with the company was literally officially founded as beyond networks. And because there was this like idea of, hey, we wanted do something in the network security space, actually, myself in the founding team, and also the other, like five engineers, that with this, we actually all came from a background of building cloud security products before.

But this time I was like, okay, we actually don't want to do cloud security. We want to do network security. And then what happened was in those initial like few weeks you you kind of um IT also we started with literally exactly wiz was founded together was cover like IT was like that march when the the whole world show downs only everything once like turbo terribly strange on all of us that's when we started IT.

So IT was like our days looked like talking to ten fifteen customers was as A B to b product. The buyer is am is the the season the people that the the person that only is basically security for the entire company. So we would have like ten to fifteen meetings every day was like potential customers.

And I know we didn't really have like a solid product, but we kind of had like an idea and the that explaining our idea and what we're gonna build and why we were all like a very time the group of people, and especially our founding team and a sf, our CEO IT was before, was he LED the entire division of all of the microsoft cloud security product. So they're very, very impressive, very technical, very well known and respected in the industry. And so you know, we would join a call and kind of present them, walk to our idea and the personal the other end would be like, oh, that sounds interesting.

Oh yes, sounds just think we've ve to hear more. Yes, perfect sounds just we would love to hear more and you finish calls was like a good feeling like the britain said, oh yes, interesting, interesting. But I was like he said, I was hired as the first product manger and I said in on those calls, sometimes like officially participating, sometimes even not officially participated, the blisters ing and all of the calls.

And I find this like a couple of weeks of that, which is a lot of calls, like you think two weeks or something, and I said did not exactly understand what we were gonna build, which was confusing because I was a private minders. I was supposed to, you know, like start building IT in some ways, like go to the device. I was started building IT in.

That was like a point where I felt like, I don't know what we are talking about exactly now. I really thought, I don't know what we're darting about like I thought they all understood what we're building. And I thought every time we hadn't call and we said to building, it's just I did actually to a building and so at some point that was kind of like, okay, I have I have to ask, like what exactly are we like in the details, right? Not in like um describing A A big problem and like a high level, big potential approach to solving IT.

But like what exactly are we going to are we doing here? And I think that um that in the public opening um a really the discussion of, okay, wait, maybe we are telling a bit of a broad story and maybe the person in the other end is not to tell you, like do not insensible ze to tell you you know I don't know what you're talking about. It's really I guess they felt a bit like me in some ways and they were like h it's really smart group of people and where they are building something interesting.

So yeah interesting. The incentives. I so like really deep dive into the problems, right? And so I think that opened up a discussion first. We kind of understood that we were listening in the wrong way maybe, and we are looking for the positive reinforcements, but not really listening intently to like signs of deep enthusiasm. And that ended up like pivoting us around to cloud security.

There's so much to learn just from the short story. And I want to get into like what you started hearing that made IT sound like, okay, well, maybe this a bit idea, but first of all, just the fact that you're doing ten, fifteen calls a day.

you said that was a bit of like in some weird way. Again, wit was provided in like that terrible march where the world close down. IT seemed at the time like a really bad time to start to start the company right, like markets or frogs and everything.

Even my mom, which knows nothing about like what exactly I do or why. Even my mom, I mean, I left microsoft join with. Even my mom was like calling me, telling me this is not a good time to join, to start out.

But IT ended up being in sometimes like an advantage, because everybody were were homes, like suddenly everybody were home, no meetings, no travel. So something cases which are like busy people. And you know, we are, we started originally leaves, so we couldn't even even matter.

I mean, every boy's home. So yeah, we took like trophy calls a day back to back, back to back. I think that .

alone is in a really important lesson of just that's how you've discover something that isn't working slash, find the thing that is working, as do many, many calls, that is a lot of calls. I don't even know how someone has time to do ten to fifteen calls a day, but again, I think that's how you do this. So I think that alone is a really important lesson for folks to take away.

I'd love this point that, uh, people are going to try to be nice. You especially if they think you're really smart and especially if you're uh, describing things that some you know that might be have for them. But but you're sharing as you needs to not trust that that that often is, is deceiving. Talk about what IT felt like when IT moved from, just like, oh, this is cool, this is nice and maybe I will talk more to like, oh, maybe this is actually something bobbi.

we really felt the type questions change, right? Only the called and and was like, oh, this sounds of branching shower league. Please update me.

I'd like to hear more silly the calls on like weight again. How are you pricing this? How much will this cost? Or wait like.

When can we started doing A P O V? How long is A P. O V? Or somebody would like, finish the complete, okay, I know exactly what I need to connect you to in my team.

Those are like really strong indications that are the type indications we learn to look for. Although there's something I think you know at the beginning of us of a company is very scary. I think naturally, as human beings, you want to get information from the other side.

So you're actually you have a bias to look for affirmation versus like a bias to look for what you don't want to hear. That's just natural being a person. So I felt like that is what we ended up really being in tune with. Like, no, I have to understand their tender interested like they want to connect somebody. They want to know how much this costs if somebody just tells you, like you said, oh, super cal, yeah I want to say this is a good sign but they shouldn't I was like.

you need to see them pushing for the next step is what i'm hearing is like, let's do A P O. V. What's the next step to do this? I want I can actually this person to talk further about this.

First is just like, ah, this is awesome. Thank you. Then OK bye.

Yeah exactly. They also like in B2B tha t is rea lly the pro cess you hav e to tak e, right? Like after you, you have to get connected to the actual team that will test the old well employed.

Like there needs to be real passion about doing something. And and I guess that is a difference. It's like real passion about here. I want this right now.

The other point you made is that you, the person, like nobody, was saying this thing that was kind of the cell phone in the rumor. Most of what are we even building? I on your stand, what happening here? I read somewhere that you were like, you've told I I need to quit like I don't understand of what this is and i'm not like the right person for this role and turned out nobody understand exactly was going on. You sure that story .

it's funny because is the story that um some of the founders tell and they told differently like they told like he came to us and he was like we have to rethink. But that's really not how IT that was not my that was not my perspective at all very my perspective was genuinely, again, I have to confess. So I was my perspective and I was like I was so um I was sure that I was only one not understanding.

It's hard to to kind of get the courage, I guess like something is hard to get the courage to say. Actually I don't understand, but I think by now in maker, it's like my year with question. I feel like I say I understand the a lot of times.

And I think I I think if you build the company with the right type of of culture in the sense that it's not the shame to say, like I don't understand or please explain again, it's it's having that culture and places enables IT. And they also have to say like when I think of you know the founding team in the founding team and was this is a very lake flat organization, in some ways it's not about minority. It's not it's really about driving impact.

And everybody can have a seen in the table, voices are heard. And I think IT also reflects really highly about them. You know, kind of just giving me the the c of the table in the sense to be even able to say I don't understand and when i'm saying I don't understand, not actually being open to oh, maybe we have to also think again. And I think that tells a lot about the culture even to this day. But it's definitely for me, it's a very learned quality over my progression of my career, actually allowing myself to be more vulnerable, more more, more easier and saying, I don't understand .

or don't know I love this lesson so much one partly because you said it's really scary to to be the person that's like I do not understand, right that puts you that's a very vulnerable thing to say because they're like what SHE doesn't get IT. Maybe she's not as smartest we thought and you know that can be easy to be the person doing that. Um the other thing is this reminds me of Tommy co and linked in CPO has this really great phrase we may be wrong bow were not confused and I feel like this exactly what you're saying .

here exactly which is why I love this question to this day like I love IT. I do think that is something it's not easy to understand. Then maybe IT needs a bit more um chewing on IT. I love that. okay.

So things started to click a little bit more. You started seeing enthusiasm. He talked about just like what that phase was like and I need lessons from just like that turned to things are actually working.

I have to say I think the feeling um after we made that switch, like what that happening is that after that like big conversation that we know I don't understand, we ended up having and this never happens. I don't think it's ever happened sense with like almost like a long like five hour discussion with all of the founders. We decided to like move away from that, give IT to cloud security, which is what we really in some is like no best.

That's our background. That's what we before, and we felt the problems there was so big and so strong. And and once we started having the conversation was like the new road and think the new vocal security, the room felt so different.

I mean, IT was over. Zoom, right? But I mean, our room IT felt very different. You could once we once we found the right path, you could just IT was so easy to distinguish IT from the wrong path in some ways.

And because we did start getting those like strong signals and in some ways, they pushed us ford right like a customer was like OK when I start to be really like, oh, cage, of course, let's get off like thursday next week or something, right? Like we tried to um even just spon IT a bit because we had to run fast. Another learning I have from that from that phase was I I explicit to remember that first conversation where to like he'd do a pov.

IT was a fortune ten company, a really big company, and we had to know the beginning of a product we wanted to buy some time until we actually sort of Q, V. And so just because of that, we kind of said OK also, we wanna really understand like exactly what they will connect to us as part of the P. V, because everything was so initial.

So we put this like longest of second ical questions like whether you're using for this, what are you doing? Care what are you? And on the one thing, because we needed to know to actually build the thing on the other end, just because we want to buy time.

And I was super scatter. Remember standing that e mail and being like like they want A P O V. And now i'm like going to scared them away with this like list of things they have to do and list of questions like it's counterintuitive.

But actually I came back filled on a day later and they remember my lesson being, you, this is actually good. I want to make sure they are committed, right? I don't want to push somebody into A P, O, V.

If he has not committed to me at this days. I mean, it's not a well build product. It's going to be a journey we take together. So they need to really want that. I need that commitment from the other side and not trying to push something on someone, especially at this point.

And I have been in not ever like, not even today, not even when you sell at large scales, and not trying to please anybody do anything. I really want to make sure they want IT. I have to fill that one back. So that was another learning for me. It's like first of all, when IT works, IT works and you do know when IT works in the second and is don't be too afraid to um get the pull from the customer, like it's okay, like need that pull from the other end as well. Don't push too hard.

I know people always talk about like look for paul and I love that you're describing what poll looks like. Somebody is next day filling out a really complicated and knowing questionnaire. They just want this product they would ve never heard of before before you chat with them and they're like and give this to me now i'm going to do anything you there's there anything else in these lines before we move into your current role .

and learnings there. I I also think that like one of the things we did very um almost like uniquely IT was was that because things started growing so fast for a month, we down like the right path. We ended up selling before we had a sellers team and we ended up like kind of almost in some way is always being behind, right? Like, okay, i'm closing contracts with people.

I haven't hired my first sales persons. I don't know what we're doing here like I don't I don't know have to have the conversations, but do we ended up learning so much from that, like from us ourselves as being the founders and myself, closing the deals like actually going all the way to contract in everything by yourself? Skinner, we've learned, we learned a lot.

We learned a lot. And when we hire our first sales, higher IT was also like look like we saw a couple million of this. So you for sure and the dale's person, right, like you could give that confidence. So I think I felt like there was multiple picks with that end of the happening just by accident because of how fast things in the happening for us and actually was really good experience to do IT for the first time with yourself.

I think sometimes when you when you start building a company, you have this like wish, but if you can't do something, you're gna hire the right person and he will be able to do IT like, okay, I feel like my message is not clear enough. And I we just started this company, it's okay. I'm going to hire my first product marketer and that's gonna IT or I feel we can close a deal, okay, because I need to harm my first sales person, that will be I I hardly find that I don't think we have we've ever had that work for us. Honestly, it's like if if you can do IT one time in the end and you are like the core, core, core group, the chances of just bringing somebody from the outside to solve that problem, it's wishful in some ways. I but IT IT never ends up that way.

And love this that by so much there's going to like two parallels here, like if the founder can do IT who has the most context in passion and motivation, it's unlikely at employees going to be able to do IT. And it's similar to the the selling point to that if your early customers aren't pulling from you, later customers are not in applied time, right? Like the most passion comes early. How long did you all stay at doing sales as a founding team? Like how many millions they are, are .

roughly to remember. Oh, I A couple million.

I don't remember couple million, that's incredible. I often that here to get here's like water, two million aire. And then he start to hire sales people. Okay, that was an awesome less. And I love that I want to talk about your current role. So currently your cmo and also V P, R product strategy that was you started as an engineer, you moved into product and I your marketing, which is not a traditional path, especially for product people, first of all, why did you decide to move into marketing from product?

Yeah, it's not a traditional path for anyone. I think I also not when they would to stand like expected myself to beyond principle. It's not like I had this plan right in general. I myself people sometimes asked me about you know career progression and I never had a plan for anything that is just the only thing that was like follow good people around that's IT. I never had to plan for anything I do.

And so myself mood coming to with was following a soft and in none in the founding team and like two and a half years into is at that time was was already like IT was a very clear private market fit. We had like our revenues were already there, like we had sales team that was fully functioning. But like at that point, that was we felt marketing was still something we didn't fully figure out, like IT wasn't working super welfare.

We are at this stage where yes, if there was A P O V, uh, a proof of value happening, we would win IT versus competition many times. We would come to a customer and they would be like, oh, I wish we heard of this. We just signed with a comparator, which like that breaks your heart, right? Because I I know, I know, I know, chosen me, had they heard about me in time.

So he started feeling that chAllenge around awareness and marketing. So two and half years into the company, basically a staff, our C O asked me if I was willing to take on marketing. Oriental, I thought, was I remember he he like, you know, like knocked on my like bother me.

I was working on my computer and and we went into this like super cold room. Room IT was like, when you are fast room start up, all of the rooms are always full. You know, I mean, that we went to do this like server room, which is freezing cold, and I was in the middle and I think you should lead the marketing org and tell them, okay, I would like, i'm called, i'm going back to work.

I have a lot to do that sounds like that bizarre to me. I have never it's not only did they not know marketing, I spent my life in engineering in the product is not the go to market side even, and I was never part of the go to market org. I have never heard of a lead in my life.

I did not know the word pipeline like all of those things were very remote to me very um and so that sounds like such a is our motion, but that was like on a thursday and then I spent the weekend because he asked me to and again, I just follow good people and do what they tell me to do. So I spent the weekend like listening to a ton of podcasts, talking to cm OS just to even understand like what do cmos do? Like what do marketing org do? And B2B com panies.

And then they ended up deciding to just give them a try. And we did not know if I was gonna. I also know if it's going to work forever, right? But like we ended up deciding to give them a try. And and I think the thing that convinced me to do IT was that in some ways, I really felt like if in the early days of the company, like finding product market fit is like a major block for the company and then like building a sales, organza becomes a major book for the company.

I felt at the point where you have to figure that out to scale, like at some point of every product, people start looking really heavily at brand, whether we think that way we do, like when when I buy my iphone, I have no idea how would really as compared to an android phone, I did not look at the speck, I truly have no idea. So why do like? Why do I buy? And I thought, I just know it's like thing B2B pro ducts, even the most complex products, people are still people.

They still buy IT because brand matters a lot. So that was part of what convinced me that this is super important. So I if i'm asked to attempt, at least try um at least try because I do think it's really important.

I love this. I love the detail of the culturing by the way, uh, speaking of cold, when we're chatting earlier, you have this really beautiful metaphor of heat and where heat is within organization and how shifts as the company grows. Can you share that?

Yes, it's example that is like that in the early, early days when we just started with I remember I felt like the heat was in the product kitchen because it's like everybody is waiting to have something. People want to start doing something right and then they felt like, okay, you start you start understanding IT and now the heat moves a bit to like a lion and you're inside, build IT.

Somebody wants to build IT, make IT work. And then I felt, okay. So we close a couple of deals now, right? We had our first before. We had our first a couple of clients. Now you bring in sales and the heat kind of most to cells.

There's really like, okay, we have this thing that i'll go sell and then the heat starts moving to marketing, in my opinion, where is like, okay, we have five of markets fit sales. People can sell IT. But there they're saying give me more pipeline like k and nobody heard of with give me more. So the heat kind of moves to marketing at that point. So in my that's kind of I always yeah and times I also not really kind of, I guess.

follow the heat. And I think it's actually more so that they put the best people in the places than in the most help. And clearly, that was you when they did that. This episode is brought to you by cloud ary, the foundational technology for all images and video on the internet, trusted by over two million developers and many of the world leading brands.

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Thankful, build big ship fast let cloud ny handle your media needs start your free plan today at cloud ary, dcom slash leny I asked what in your board members share dull shaw, what to ask you? Uh, he's a partner index ventures. And he really told, speaking of kind of this move to marketing, he said that when you are in your first board meeting, that was board meeting, presenting marketing and sharing your plan, and you asked him, hey, can you introduce me? All his marketing leaders say, can learn from them. He he basically did the opposites like now i'm gonna introduce all my marketing leaders to you because I think, baby, learn from you. What do you think that's the case?

I think you're doll very kind. Um I even I I deeply remember that meeting because funy enough IT was my first boy meaning ever and that is a funny thing by itself because this is bored. You know we have shadow or board. We have that glen and we have like jeff from insights. We have it's it's um it's a very IT sounds like it's very humbling to sit down in front of those people, period.

And since I decided to take marketing and effect cmo, this was also my first board meeting ever and also IT was like the meeting words like you know in some ways I was not that um I was like, you know the okay we took our product manager person. He was never seen with any company. Now SHE is a cmo here and so it's just like a very you know the whole setting was very shuttled for me.

So I just stand up. IT was like, I think that I think we just had the meaningly two months after I took over marketing. And so IT was more like an update of like he, those of the changes are made.

And this is how i'm thinking of approaching this. And this is all the things i've done in the past two months. It's funny because I am a very non traditional marketer just because I really don't know marketing like at this point, I kind of know already because i've been doing IT for two years and I read a lot.

And but at that point, I generally did not know, like I could not even explain you with how untraditional my approach is. In some ways, I just really did what I thought. I mean, what I knew I had a time learn about marketing with what I knew really well, was the problem we solved.

And I really know your audience. So like I myself, I come from security. I come from cloud security.

I read all the right twitters and I follow all the right people on twitter, and I read all of the right blogs. And like, I know what's funny. I know what matter is like, I know it's interesting right now.

I generally because this is my space, I mean, I live in that space truly as as as a customer. So I was kindly just thinking, okay, what are things they could do to start fixing the problem that mattered most? And that was nobody heard of this at that time.

So those were just like I was like time saying, okay, I think to in order to do that, i'm willing to take chances. I'll just focus on making a lot of noise. They think even though even in that short time of two months, we we saw like changes happening already in some ways.

So I I think I think that what you're dull meant by that, of course, although I do think he's being very, very kind. And they have learned a lot from many, many marketing people and including my own team, by the way, which is another interesting thing, really like I took over a large team of people who are marketers and i'm dislike person, knows nothing about marketing. We will now manage this.

So I learned a lot from many marketers, including my own exceptional team. But I think he meant really kind of looking at IT differently, just thinking, okay, what is the end to the goal of having the right people hear the right thing about my company, A C P, versus a kind of, like I know, a kind of kind of traditional aspects of building pipeline and different things. They really did not know how. Enjoy that time.

So following that thread, curious what is that, that you think cmos mistake you are often do wrong? And what do you think cmos often don't work code? And they've brought in something like you.

What is very fresh perspective? What do you think? What do you think folks often go wrong?

That's what I think simo is a very, very hard role. And also, I think it's a all that is very hard to do without a lot of trust and without a deep connection to the founding team. Everything you do in marketing is very visible, I mean, and and you're kind of touching something that matters so deeply to the founding team, and you are the one like we're presenting into the world.

So it's it's very hard to build that trust and is very easy to break up because like one bad, yeah, there is something that the one of the founding came was say, like, oh, this is not that this is like, not what I mean, this is not the right thing IT breaks the rest really easily. And I think it's especially chAllenging. I mean, I really don't know how somebody that does not come from from from a security background could kind of be successful deeply in this type of overall for a company like with because IT is really about understanding your customers and is really about understanding your product.

I think that's like very, very hard to to gain. So I guess that would kind of say I think it's like the trust the deep trust you need with the founding am and the really deep connection you need to the private into the market. And I think both of that when you kind of come from the outside in the way because you are not part of the founding team and also you may become from outside the market sometimes because it's a very technical market.

it's. Or it's a very different domain, then I think it's too really big chAllenges, and I think you can come over them. But I think just a very, very hard job.

And on top of that is a very diverse job. Like when I was a product manger, immense product managers and know exactly what they like, what they don't like. That's my audience.

I know who to hire. I have the best network. I know every single pm and security around me. Like it's so different. When you are a marketing leader, you manage like human's performance marketing, which is a numbers game. Human designers in grand and the human is like events and field like there's nothing in between those things that is deeply correlated. And so it's just a very, very chAllenging and very interesting world.

This trust point is so interesting, especially based on what you said earlier with the what you wanted to do is crate noise takes some risks that's extra hard. If you are not someone that the found trust, can you share some of the things you did that helped create noise and get the was name out there that might inspire focus like, oh, that was really that's really go do something like that yeah.

Another like inside they had about marketing in the early days was how different IT is from product. As a product manger, I was always and still believe it's so important to think really hard about everything you add, like less is more if you decide to build the future in the product. Then a, you're taking engineering time, which is the most valuable resource in every company, in my opinion.

And b, and sometimes you can never take IT back like it's complicated. Your product, even if one customer likes IT and uses that at least at be to be, are never going to be able to like suddenly take that away. And every new product you add to your product will like every new feature you add to your product, you will have to think about, okay, how does this work with that feature? So it's like making a mistake, like adding something to the product that is not the right thing or that is not truly, truly what your customer needed, even if it's what they asked for.

But if exactly truly needed, IT has a huge cost like a huge cost associated with IT. Marketing is quite the opposite in my opinion. There is no cost to anything, no maintenance to anything, no technical deaths, no anything.

Like if tomorrow I post a video on with linton page, and I think that video is super funny and nobody likes that video, nothing happened. Tomorrow i'll post a different video. No maintenance.

Bye bye. Forgot that ever happened. So in some ways, it's kind of done in me how opposite those things were.

And I was kind of great. We have to just like use IT to our advantage. Like let's try everything.

Let's try everything. I'm trying to make noise. IT was right before, like when I took over. IT was like before. R A, R C is like the super bowl of security companies.

So it's where every vendors come to kind of showcase and over buyers are there and you kind of know you know how those contents go. You can pay for having a spaces science to you. It's like a very expensive space to assign to yourself.

And we had the exact same spot we had the year before and I said, okay, it's like like it's a booth at the conference. I'll just make IT the weirdest booth ever because my goal is just having people look and be like ah what this was right because you've never heard of me. So instead of being like a classical cyber booth, I decided to OK let's scrapper booth and do a width of odd booth, which literally looked like a wizard of oz booth.

And we had actors like thy and like all those things like hanging around there. And IT looked nothing, nothing like any boost in the show, which is the cyber security show. Things are like red and lag and like people as hood.

And we decided to take to complete the opposite approach. In general. I also decided that we're gna take a completely opposite approach, was brand. I wanted with this brand to, again, my first motives stand out. So I wanted with to have like a very positive, optimistic type of brand.

So I went all in, unlike scrap whatever we were doing IT before, which was like dark and go pink, go bright blue, always go optimistic c and and focus on like magic, not scaring people from attacks with magic and that ended up like and IT was scary don't get me around I half of music I remember feeling um so scared walking to the show to the floor trade that was like, is this gonna be the most terrible bizarre or people going na be like what is he thinking so I knew IT could either be like a failure or hit and IT ended up like IT. The amount of the people that stopped by a booth was like five times amount people that stopped by there before. And it's the exact same space, the exact same investment because you invest in the space. But also ever since we do themed booth is like every time we changed them to keep IT fun. At this point, you will see other cyber companies even doing themes because, like we were just like OK, we'll do whatever IT takes to make nose.

And this is just one example that is an amazing story. And he said that other companies now try to do something similar, right, man? So along these lines, when we were chatting earlier, you share that you kind of have this mindset of being very OK with fAiling that kind of a core part of you.

And IT feels like that comes up again and again. And the stories you share, you just try stuff and you're okay. If he doesn't work out, you just talk about apart and why that's so important.

Almost every single thing i've done in my career in some ways even before I never thought I was gonna successful in IT. And so I guess you know there is um there's a lot of times it's like a lot of talk about like being more confident than yourself. I don't know, at least for me, I don't really know that's like a real option.

okay. I just know that i'm kind of OK was being pretty sure i'm onna fail at something and still tempting IT. That is that is like the thing that has grown in me where, you know, when I took a the job IT was I was sure they're going to like I was sure they got confused that they offer her to take me with him.

I was certain that is going to be like i've we're going to figure out that i'm not the right fit for that like super smart, talented group of people who have all together before. By the way, I was sure there's going to like find me out and I was here and I was going to I was pretty sure I was gonna fail, but I I will still take IT like, great. So it's like I found I was gona failed the proof Mandal too, although I did have the experience.

So that also makes IT easier to move in some ways if I think i'm going to feel of anything, i'm like, okay, whatever, i'll try and and I think go over time and yet releases you a bit like sure, I might fail, but I might still fail. It's also fine like IT, it's even in my current role, right? Like probably not for every scale IT will make sense for me to do IT, but that's also fine like it's still just giving yourself the opportunity to fail. It's really mpower ring.

Is there anything that helps you build that skills because that's not natural to lot of people uh, being OK OS failure and leading into things that they think they will probably fail at. Where did that come from for you?

You know, depending on like what you believe and everything comes from childhood. So and sounds like I do think IT has to do with them like the way I was. I think the the way my mom kind of raised me, my mom really believed that. Like if you're good at something, so that's not where you should invest your energy. Like because you really believed and like i'm pushing us um like pushing us to the places where were less contented in I I mean I was a very I was a very shy kid.

My natural collection as a Young kid was like to close the door in my room, read the book I had no interest in, like meaning other kids are doing sport or like nothing, nothing really like a super, super shy, and I think also likely, and social by nature really. But so much for my mom. SHE could have been like, oh, so she's really good, was like books and math.

So let's focus, like, let's let's perfect, like later build up the skill and be really good with that. I know he would like make mingo swimming, like make me go meet other kids in some ways that I feel he always used to say that like friction is good and like if you breath your teeth and there's like a bit of blood somewhere, then you need to brush harder there. It's kind like that idea that like fiction is kind of good.

If you're good at something already, then you're good to something already. So it's like a bit more about learning how to learn how to push yourself in other areas. Like I think you put hard work and am courage in some ways or friction mostly and above talent. Like talent only gets you so far, but like that hard work in the friction gets you more and .

is an awesome story, is interesting that friction is good circles back to the story shared about creating like hurdles for potential prospects early on and creating looking for enthusiasm where the filling out these lung service I guess that no.

it's it's true. You're right. IT shows something like IT shows.

If you do, it's always easier to be in like in ocean, right? That's why I also say sometimes it's like it's like a break of advice I give my girlfriends over the years or it's like, well, if you decide to break up with somebody, it's for sure the right decision, right? Because like not breaking up with somebody is much easier.

It's so hard to break up. So that makes IT by default like the right decision. So it's like, yes, where there is friction IT means that you put something extra in .

I went to circle back to marketing flash product advice going back full circle a little bit. So focus are in now that you're in the marketing world thinking about marketing, what do you think you wish you knew as a product leader that you think product leader should be thinking more over or maybe miss that you now see as a marketing leader.

having done pass from many years, I really did not understand the critically of marketing and even the product marketing. I really did not understand deeply enough that sometimes even gap between, like when you're in the product of and you really live inside.

The product and the technical domain, you can something is not understand how far you are from like a common person in your market or a seller in your market and marketing in the odda's bridges that gap. And it's like a man is like a multiple er but it's like the further you get away from like the core like engineer than product, then in order for the messages to move correctly, they have to be Crystal clear. That is something under said only when looking at from the other side, they give on the product side.

You can often kind of um work with things at their leg fu thy or blurry or like gray okay, like somebody asked you kind of proud do this and you really yeah not exactly but I can do like like what work around something right? Like IT doesn't have to be cryo clear. You can kind of go around things in a way that when you try to scale your message, you can like IT gets lost in translation.

You have to be cristal clear, black and White. You have to communicate very clearly, especially and organization scales. You have to communicate very clearly like suddenly looking at the product or from the outside in the company that skills fast.

And you said, wow, like you product marketing and marketing basic A A, A really important role and being able to take that message and amplify IT. And if you are giving signals that are even a bit grey fuzzy, then it's not in working. You can't expect them to do a good job with that in some ways. So I really by understanding the go to market perspective and the user perspective and the self perspective, as I understood how things that can look simple on the inside of that side are very complex when you kind of cross over to the go to market. And I think learning the difference is so so some point for private people to understand like that, they have to deliver those like cystic ally messages about the product is .

an example that where you like a while, I thought this was good. But no, nobody understands what we're talking about there.

So much like I think of, for example, in an hour domain, it's very almost customer to like talk. And a lot of in nichols, like in a lot of things that security are like using nitrous for them. You say like C S B M for a cloud security poster management and like you use a lot of those types sim initials and you you keep assuming that the world knows what you mean.

But then when actually looked the things over from the marketing side, like if you ask them, our product people, engineers, like what is our where does our products fall in terms of category, that would be like scene p cloud native application protection. But if you go over and you like look at google, people are not google in that work. They're not google like cloud security solution, right? So it's that just a like a simple and silly example, but it's it's bad example that like when you live inside something very tempting, like inside your market in you're very remote sometimes the accident from the vie. And so a lot of those learnings kind of clip for me only once, and I saw everything from the marketing side.

You have this concept that you describe desert the down, my explanation when someone you just needed to feel really, really simple. Can you color at some color to that?

Yes, it's it's when I now in marketing and in everything we write and everything our team produces in terms of anything, anything within I was I keep kind of going back to I don't want us to forget that we are inside their own bubbles. We go to work IT with every day, which is a cod security company is a concurrent like we live inside their own bubble, but reminding yourselves that customers don't live in that bubble.

They're like people in the in the world there, not their life is not with. So every time you write something I wanted to not assume knowledge about or acknowledge about the product or deeper knowledge about the market, i'll give a simple example. With with itself is based on like part of the deep innovation that was brought to the market that enabled the scale was very high quality, the signal that based on a graph database.

So instead, this we have that was graph database for security. If you write something that says that was graph database, I don't like IT because why would a common person know what is that like? They was graph database, right? So it's making sure that every single thing you say is understandable by anybody. There is no reason to use complex criminal gy when you can keep things straight and simple.

Easier said than done, but such a reminder to always be, is there like a framework here? Are you just like trying remember, people outside don't understand anything we are talking about and simplified further like how to actually practice that because it's like, I imagine everyone's like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know all the stuff, but they don't actually do IT. There are any tips. They're not actually practice this.

I constantly remind myself about the bubble every time somebody says, oh, we haven't changed our color for so long gr, a website headline. It's like or you know a lot of like a lot of those things for me, like you are the only one that to sick of IT your customers are just learning what he put there like ten months ago. You are the only one looking at this thing like day after day, after after day.

You're actually going to change IT only like they are just starting to grasped and you're changing IT under their feet. It's it's living in that bubble and currently reminding me myself like IT is a bubble. I'm in that with bubble, right? But my audience is not so yeah it's it's a daily reminder. It's hard to get it's it's hard. It's a hard daily .

reminder is so fine okay. Ah just a few mark questions. One is so there's four cofounder ers of with that, right? Yeah what is your relationship with them? How's that changed over the years and over time? And just like imagine very difficult being a not founder, having a lot of trying have a lot of influence on strategy and vision and all these things. Just I guess, like how's that relationship changed over the years? Anything there that might be helpful to focus on any advice for people's in a similar boat to work well with founders who also very product or incident very initiated to but .

everything yeah I think the worst funny team um is a truly incredible team. They also have a very unique story. And before this is actually there's second company together.

So before was they founded adolf, which sold to microsoft. That's how they all ended up in microsoft in the first place. And even before that, they all work together in the israeli army.

So they've known each other for like they've been together for like thirty years, right? It's it's a long, long time. I will not thirty.

I made them older like twenty, twenty two. Play here and is a very, very, very unique team where there is complete trust between the team members. Also very clear in your standing what falls under like each has his own clear domain. In that way, decisions are made superfast, super fact. And because the complete trust and everybody has their their clearly own domain.

And I think the unique thing about what is I truly think I define their companies culture to this day is exactly that they did not have to work card to be able to impact strategy and get to see at the table. I think that it's open like it's it's a very open culture and an open company that goes back to the beginning of like being able, say, don't understand, they really believe in employees and they really believe in giving everybody a chance to have impact regardless of title or experience or anything. If you want to drive more impact, you will get the chance.

I think of something I really learn to a door and in in that team, it's like they will give their trust to someone and they will allow you to try. And I think IT also causes employees to have a lot of loyalty because you you are giving those opportunities and you are given that chance. And IT IT builds a very, very healthy culture and I think also very A A culture that's very loyal, like everybody feels part of what's being built here.

incredible. And how many employees there? There are largest is is at this point just for folks .

to get a sense if they want to potentially join with somebody around like one one thousand .

and five hundred OK. amazing. okay. Well, potentially final question. I want to take A A contrarian corner. I'm curious if there's something give a very concern opinion about something that you believe that a lot of other people don't believe. We already covered the number of things I think like that.

But is there anything else that comes to mind we ve heard um I I think like one thing is maybe goes back to where I was talking about before I was fAiling and confidence, I think like kind of being at least like being a woman in tech.

You get talk to a lot about the imposter syndrome, building up confidence and and actually do think that like my approach to at least for me has been just more effective, like I won't be able to build with confidence. I would do feel like an imposter and I know there's always like those statistics about many people feeling that way. So I think like maybe just like let's embrace IT.

I feel like in the poster you feel like and then post everybody feel like an poster. It's like kindly be embraced IT, but don't let that stop you from from making a decision. Like maybe they will find out during the poster, maybe let them find out like its fine.

Like I just you know if you want to, if you think about trying to go to an interview for a company and you start thinking, oh no, I won't get accept that they won't take me perfect. Let them not accept you like you think you're not good enough perfect that's on them to now except you right? Like give yourself that opportunity. And I think for me, maybe less talking about like the impose or sender and more talking about I but ignore IT like you will never know your limit if you don't try.

The best advice have heard along these lines, which is basically what you're saying, is that when you take on a new role, you like you actually aren't in poster. You've never done this before and that's okay and that's very Normal. Most people in a new role when they are promoted given any big opportunity like yeah you are you are imposter in many but that's okay. That's exactly just think .

I never heard I love IT ross.

There's anything else you wanted to share, anything else that we haven't touched that and then you think might be helpful to folks before we gets a very exciting lightning round.

I deeply, deeply believe that we're doing something super special was and I think the company is in like such an interesting place of hyper scaling, but still keeping that authentic and I think flat and enabling culture. And I think there's literally interesting opportunities across every ddb ain. And so I just to say that we are always hiring for great people trying to make an impact.

Then you were all areas you're specifically more focus on. I read known case folks are listening like, oh.

should I can apply? Truly, we are hiring across like the beauty of hybrid ceiling is we are hurrying across everything. But also if if you are if you feel super strongly about joining and you don't find the right role, we'd still love to talk to you. Like there's many, many things for passion .

people to do here. awesome. Like to the career page in the showing. Tes, and with that, rose, we reached our very exciting like round. Are you ready?

I am ready, I hope.

First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

So I I focus like I like the product side of things and so we meant to like the heat in the kitchen. Actually one of my most favorite ite business books and have read like a lot of them is um probably setting the table by by danny mayor, which is he owns shake shack and um like a change of really great restaurants in new york and IT set an interesting business perspective from a different domain then obviously tech or set.

But there are so many applicable lessons there from the deep connection to hosting, focusing and obsessing over your customer. You know shake shack like unlike other chains where they optimize for you, notice the down they optimized for this down there, like it's a very, very unique culture and unique vision. And i've learned a lot in some of the most like memorable lessons come from his management thousand and manding. You know he would chains, but also very high and restaurants. And he thinks very inspiring, inspiring ing a book and different like just different from my domain, but very applicable in my the mind as well.

And then the second a second book I really like, um I read IT early on and with and so did the entire foundation I think and the book by by netflix m code to read hasting no rules rules which also I think talks very like very clearly netflix has as sub ani culture and story right like moving talk about pivots like they sold cassette over mail and somehow pivoted to whether this today that an stain story think about like pivoting like tech company to the company that has productions to do and produces reality to be like, right. Like talk about this type of cutter you would need to truly pivot. I think this interesting read for anybody thinking about like putting strong culture in place.

I'm gna call order table and ask about marketing specifically. You said that early on. I red some marketing books and listens to marketing markets as there is anything else that your call is like very helpful and helping you ramp up in this world in due marketing.

Honestly, I think I think the end for me, I just ended up saying, you know, what are the company I feel do things really well like whether the branch island and what do I love about them, and then really a obsessing about like what did they do, like what what is what are their team doing? And then also obsessing about the people behind them. So for example, I think gang did does like an amazing job in marketing for A B to b product.

And so IT was like, okay, so where all the things gone did and then I would look like every single like talk their cm o gave. So it's like kind of I always like back back up into IT. I did not care if it's like a security company or not.

Security company actually don't like the way most security companies market things. It's mostly by like frightening and fear. And that's not really I don't like IT. So for me, that was just like looking at brands I love and then back tracking from there.

I love that we have the C P of gun in cove coming on the podcast very thin. So I will ask him about this. alright. Uh, next question, you have a favorite recent movie or T, V show you really .

enjoyed honest like a hardly, hardly, hardly wash anything. I think the wire is the best black show ever created. I will, I will take that fights with anybody. But yeah, I I haven't really watch anything super recent.

The only problem of the wire is so long to watch. I save seen that I love IT, but it's like a large commitment. So like an hour times twenty two episodes, I think five seasons .

but worth that, worth that.

Next question of a favorite product. You recently discovered the really .

love it's it's like any question in the world we live where they like just so many.

That's why which should we pay attention to?

The question I answer pretty randomly answer I I always go around was like, I know the book an end still that type of person I mean, I constant walk around with them, right? Like across office rooms of a and I always care deeply about the notebook and the pen. Like i'm a very picky person.

I pick pen, I pick notebooks and I often lose my pens, which is fat. And I recently bought like this cute something. It's like very geeky.

But like you can like a pen holder for a notebook. I did not know they exist IT a very nice feature. It's like small magnetic and we'd like collapsed into a notebook. And you can put the pending in next. Peter.

how does one fightings? Is there a brand or a name or something?

Oh, so i'll send you a link, but if you look like a notebook pen holder, you'll find a tunk kiko .

will like to in the show nets. Whatever would you recommend? And uh, just a couple more questions. You are favorite life model that you often come back to and find helpful and work our life.

I think keeping IT simple, like if something, if you started feeling like something is too complex or and answers to complex, or something you are building in the private to complex probably, or something in your life feels to complex, like probably IT does mean something, but sometimes you just have to like maybe take two steps back, like leave IT there until you come back to again, you find a simple way out. And whether it's the project feature or anything, if like if you start getting to, if something start getting too complex and you don't know how to design that or how to find and from start IT does mean it's not the right solution to complex. It's not the right solution, but something like take two steps back and they find the applicable to anything in life .

almost reminds me of the story when you are trying to sell the initial version of wisley new beyond to whatever was called early on and IT is just too complicated and no one understood what the hole is going on. And so I let me have the circles back final question, and then you can talk too much about this. But i'm also just curious what you're able to share, as I said, allegedly, uh, a company whose named rims of lugal, uh, wanted to buy you guys for many billions and you all decided to decline that and stay private and you think you share there about maybe why you decided to do that if that was true at all?

Yeah I mean, I can't um I can't address like any specific office obviously was over the years over the years has gotten many position offers. I can share that I think for us as being the funny team, the employees, the customers, the board and staying on an independent path, we all really believe that we can become one of the biggest security companies in the world when you look at with today.

And I mean, we spoke about the unconventional growth when you think about IT, in some ways, the visit dresses the biggest growing market of security like cloud security. Cloud is the fastest growing like cloud is such a fast wing market. cloud.

Cloud grows like twenty thirty percent year over a year. We feel like everything is in the cloud with in reality based amazon only like twenty percent fifteen to twenty percent of the end for two days in cloud. So it's a really, really fast growing a state in the fast growing ing market.

And security by nature is a bit of like a market of leaders, right? I mean, it's it's a big buy insurance for something you wanna buy IT from the best from the leader in this domain. And today was really is bad leader because it's a new space like this is considered, I think, in many ways.

And that is also what makes marketing and brand, not just marketing, but truly brand so important. Like this is considered, I think the cloud security company in a lot of ways, right? Still, of course, it's our solos.

There is a ton of work ahead of us, right? But that is a new opportunities front of us becoming legal security, the company. And I think nobody thinks we we are anywhere. And you ready to to give you up in the way.

I totally understand that. And again, this is hard. And kiss, you are inspired by you, by what you're hearing. Ross, this was incredible. I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you so much for being here to for all questions, where can folks finding a line, if they won, to reach out maybe all up on stuff? And how can listeners peaceful to you .

find your link then? And yeah no apply. We love we we love great people who are learners, which I think is what this focus is all about of um definitely the right place to find the right people.

Awesome rush. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me by everyone.

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