Aron Ralston with Blair Braverman
01:15:01 Share

It says a lot that you ask me what I would do and I'm like, I give up. Pass. Welcome to You're Wrong About. I'm Sarah Marshall and today we are bringing you an episode all about surviving despite the odds and also in this specific case despite there being a boulder on your arm. We are joined by

of course, by our adventure and survival correspondent, Blair Braverman, who is a dog sledder. She's an adventurer. She's a keynote speaker. And of course, she's an author, most recently of the novel Small Game. Today, Blair is bringing us the story of Erin Ralston, a name that perhaps you know, perhaps you don't. This was a big story about 20 years ago in 2003. Let's not worry about that being 20 years ago. 22, actually. Don't worry about it.

This was a story that at the time really captured at least Americans imaginations because it was about a young man who had gone off on a little day trip and ended up being pinned to a canyon wall by an 800 pound boulder and then had to figure out what to do about it and did figure it out.

And that's just the kind of story I love and the kind of story I especially love doing with Blair. This is a gory episode, to put it bluntly, no pun intended. And especially in the back half, we're going to talk about how a person goes about escaping from under an 800-pound boulder, might involve cutting something off, and then how you survive after that. So that might be right for you today, it might not, and...

If it's not, then we will see you in the next one. And we can't wait.

We, as always, have got bonus episodes up for you on Patreon and Apple Plus subscriptions. We did some really fun ones in the past year, and we have a new one coming out shortly that I'm thrilled about where Sarah Archer and I will talk about my favorite cookbook, The I Hate to Cookbook by Peg Bracken, and also kind of the whole melange of what the 60s were in terms of women and the kitchen, and also the question of how to keep feeding your family, despite the fact that

you don't want to sometimes. And I love doing it. I can't wait to share it with you. Thank you for being here with us. Thank you for walking into 2025 with us. Here is an episode for you.

Welcome to You're Wrong About, our first episode of the new year. It is 2025. We are not on track to have a normal one. And in times of anxiety, I really like to have something unbelievably compelling to distract myself with. And when I think of unbelievably compelling, I think of Blair Braverman. Oh, Sarah, I think of you. Yeah.

It's, you know, it's a team effort. I mean, something I want to and I know I told you this before, but it really bears repeating like of individual episodes of the show that people really care about and love and love both for informational and like great story reasons and also for being kind of a light and difficult times is the episode that we did on. It's

survival in the Andes, the survival of the rugby team. Those boys. So many people have come up to me. I don't want to sound like Trump. Big guys, strong guys, tears pouring down their faces about Trump.

the Andy's rugby player episode. Oh, I think about the Andy's rugby players all the time. Yeah, I really do. I think a lot of us do because of you and talking about them with you. We all went on a journey. We really did. And we're going on another journey today because I wanted to bring you back to tell a story of survival and also one that a lot of us feel like

We kind of know because when I think we were in ninth grade, ninth or tenth grade, there was suddenly this big story about this guy named Aaron Ralston, who the story went had gotten his arm pinned under a rock that was too heavy to move and ultimately had had to

Yeah.

I don't know what that's a metaphor for, but I think I'm right. It's perfect timing. It's perfect timing. Thank you for having me on to talk about Aaron Ralston, the guy who cut his arm off with a multi-tool. And I, too, remember this story very much as it was playing out in the media. And I also, I mean, I've come on for a couple of survival story theme episodes with you. I feel like when someone's in a survival situation, the general public is often like,

What did you expect when you decided to go outside? And so like the pattern is that I come on this podcast that I'm like, actually, you know, I end up really defending the person and saying, like, I think these people did a really good job in a really tough situation.

And I have to say, this story really challenged me. I'll get into the reasons why, but I had a really different emotional response to this story than I have to other survival stories. And I didn't expect that when I first started researching it.

That's exciting. Have you seen the film that's based on Aaron Ralston's story? I have. Do you recall? I do. Because as you know, kind of relatively early in the pandemic, I was on a big survival movie kick. And I also very strongly recommended Blake Lively's The Shallows. Oh, yeah. At the time, which you had notes on, understandably. Yeah.

But I remember watching 127 hours at the time. And I mean, one of my takeaways is that I'm a fan of horror movies generally. And I feel like that was, you know, kind of a horror movie premise, but was lit in such a way that it felt like an IMAX movie, which is really interesting combination of story and aesthetic, if that makes sense.

So this incident happened in 2003 and the film came out in 2010. And I actually saw it in a movie theater on a date. Oh, wow. It's a very dramatic movie. It uses noise and color to illustrate pain. Right. Yeah. And so I remember we both like left the theater like shell shocked, like it had such a visceral effect on us. And what I also remember about

this particular date and this movie theater, which I just have been holding onto this memory for 15 years, is it was a small sort of artsy movie theater in Waterville, Maine, which is a small town in Maine. And I went to the bathroom and in the women's bathroom stall, someone had written graffiti that was in Norwegian. And it said,

Ingen förstår det. Du, na mai, savna hjem. Which means, nobody understands this except for me. I miss home. And I was so moved by it because I spoke Norwegian, but I had no one to speak it with, right? Because I spent part of my childhood in Norway. And I was like, wow, someone was in here in this bathroom stall, like...

Norway and thinking in Norwegian. And then someone else had taken a pen and written, I understand you underneath it. And in a different pen, someone else had written, I understand. There were three responses all in Norwegian of different women who had been in this bathroom stall and understood the person who had been lonely there. And whatever we're going through, we're not usually as alone as we think we are. Yeah.

Yeah. Unless you're trapped under a rock in the wilderness. And then you really are. Well, yeah. And then you are. I'll start at the beginning so we know who this guy is by the time he's stuck under a boulder. They say that in all the screenwriting books. Do they? Yeah.

They do. Well, you know, something like that. It's just intuitive. So Aaron Ralston, he's born in 1975. So solidly Gen X. Gen X, we see you. You're not invisible. So Aaron grew up in Ohio. He was growing up. His family moved to Colorado. He got into backpacking. He climbed his first 14er in 1994 when he was 19. And a 14er is a mountain. Thank you so much for explaining. Yeah.

I'm like, don't make me ask. A 14er is a mountain over 14,000 feet. Okay. And what is 14,000 feet? What is a mile in feet? There are 96 14ers in the United States. Colorado has more than any other state. It has 53.

And 14,000 feet, like that's very significant mountaineering. I'm not a mountaineer. I actively avoid mountaineering at all costs. So I really can't like speak with any sort of personal experience about it. But like it's definitely you're dealing with low oxygen. You're dealing with you need a lot of technical skills, et cetera, et cetera, if you're climbing a 14er and higher.

14ers, climbing mountains, being in deep cold. These are all places where little mistakes can cause very serious repercussions. And so he has experience. This is the other thing. Aaron moves to Colorado. He gets into climbing 14ers. He gets into outdoors. It's clear to him that this is going to be one of his callings in life. So he goes to Carnegie Mellon for college and

But in summer, he's working as a rafting guide in big whitewater. At one point, he rafts eight miles of rapids with inflatable pool toys. Like, that's a questionable decision. He and his friends make it. Some of those suckers are hard to keep afloat, even, you know, on a pond. Yeah.

Because a lot of young men, you know, the fear of death hasn't really fully grown in yet. And it does seem like a lot of guys in their early 20s love climbing really tall mountains before they realize that they could actually die or something. Yeah, I gotta say mountaineering is one of those sports where it seems like everyone knows someone who's everyone who does it like knows has peers who have died doing it.

Yeah. Mushing is an extreme sport, but most people don't know someone who's died dog sledding. I feel like I'm still in a very different category from these guys. Well, yeah. And I and also that sort of proximity to death isn't the point, which I know, you know, that isn't fair to say about mountaineering. But it does seem like that is a dynamic phenomenon.

for some people some of the time at the very least. Absolutely right. Like the risk is part of the thrill. Yeah. So Aaron is he loves being outdoors and he also loves risks and thrills. And like you said proximity to death. He's into the scarier sides of adventure and the more technical sides. There's a point where he goes on a three day solo backpacking trip in Wyoming and he gets scared

stalked by a black bear who's just come out of hibernation and spends like the three days like throwing rocks at the bear. Like he's being chased across like

snow fields like that. He gets in this really dire situation with a bear who's just like he's experienced a tick tock scenario in real life. Yes, like that. Exactly. Like he is experiencing man v bear in real life. The park rangers are like, oh, my gosh, we can't believe you survived that. He starts going to restaurants asking if they have bear state because he like wants his little petty revenge, but they don't.

But he decides after this bear incident that he's going to climb all of Colorado's 14ers solo in winter, which is something that's never been done before. With good reason, arguably. With good reason. And at the time, he's working as an engineer for Intel in Arizona. So he starts doing this project. He starts climbing 14ers. He acquires mentors who can teach him how to do it.

So he's going about it. It seems like he's going about it responsibly. And he eventually decides, you know what? I don't want to be doing this engineering thing at all. I'm going to move to Colorado and become like a full-time outdoors guy. And so he quits Intel and he moves to Aspen, Colorado, which is such a fascinating place. I worked for a summer in Aspen, Colorado, and it is like...

The Disneyland of like, it's so. I still think about your weird Aspen stories. I, you know, I, it's beautiful. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And like every single person you encounter is like walking out of their house to climb a mountain. It's so fascinating and it's so rich anyway. So I, I worked as a nature guiding in Aspen, Colorado for a summer, but I never did any mountaineering stuff. And so he's immediately going to this mountaineering place.

He works at a gear store. He and his buddies are like skiing all the time and they know how to like, you know, they're on budgets. So they know how to like walk up mountains with their skis to get around having to have ski passes. And then they get to like ski down on the slopes, which is, you know, so much more work. But it's such a ski bum type of thing to do in a really lovely way. Yeah, I love it.

I love that whole culture and like the way people reminisce about being young and broke and doing outdoor stuff. That's like a genre that just feels so cozy to me. It is. It is. And, you know, some people never, never grow out of it, which also is lovely. Like the people I know who are like outdoor elders, the stories are just absolutely incredible stories.

So he, Aaron wrote a book after all this happened. Can you guess what it's called? Oh, I remember this. It's called A Rock and a Hard Place. Between A Rock and a Hard Place. That's so good. I mean, you gotta, you just gotta. Here's a sentence from it, just to give you a sense of the tone.

I went on a month-long streak of climbing 14ers in January with close calls on all of them. And these close calls, he's getting stuck in a blizzard. At one point, he's like plummeting down a slope and he manages to stop by driving his axe into solid granite. He gets severe frostbite on eight out of 10 fingers. There's a lot of danger. This is starting to raise flags of discomfort for me, I have to say, as I'm reading it. This is when I start to be like, look...

adventures happen, right? Adventure is just bad planning and things are going to go wrong. But like if you're doing these things, if you're on a streak of having close calls on everything you do, to me, that's not to me, that's a wake up call and not a bragging point. Right. Because I feel like as an adult woman, you're like, hey, this might mean that you're not prepared enough to be doing this if you keep going.

almost dying. And I can imagine as a young man having some, not even necessarily an articulated thought, necessarily, but a feeling of like, wow, if I keep not dying, then I must really be good. Yeah, or something. I mean, I think like the most dangerous situations often become the best stories. And I'm not immune to that. Like there's things. Yeah. Some of my quote unquote, best stories are from things that went

wrong. But you want that to be the exception. Right? You want most of your days to have no great stories in them. Maybe the great story is I saw a bear. And we kept our distance from each other. So he climbs, he climbs this peak resolution peak with his friends, Mark and Chadwick. And his friend Mark actually pulls him aside and is like,

I want you to know, like, I am disturbed by what you're doing. Like, I want you to be happy living outdoors, but like, this is raising concern for me. I don't know. It seems like it goes in one ear and out the other. He has new skis. That's actually what's going on. He has new skis and his friends concerned about him and he's thinking about his new skis. And there's this, this bowl, this sort of like picture, literally sort of the shape of a bowl on the mountain and,

that the others don't think is safe to ski down because it seems like really, really prime avalanche terrain. And Aaron is like, yeah, but we'll get amazing photos if we ski into this bowl. And his friends are really, really, they don't want to do it. And Aaron goes over the edge, basically,

forces them to follow him. And there is a massive avalanche that all three of them get trapped in. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aaron gets trapped neck deep in the snow. Jesus. And he's able to dig himself out. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, again, like, a very close call where he, like, sort of theatrically makes it but shouldn't have. Well...

He's neck deep. His friend Chadwick is up the slope, survives. He's not buried. Mark's gone. Oh, God. Mark is missing. They've been swept the length of two city blocks. It's a D5 avalanche. It's as destructive as an avalanche. This is a massive avalanche. And Mark is missing. He's been buried.

And Chadwick and Aaron start looking for him. But again, this is such like, what do you do? How do you do it? And what do you start looking? And they start, they use avalanche beacons, which they have to search for him under the snow. And they finally see his ski tip poking out and they are able to dig him up. He has an ice plug in his mouth. He's been buried for 12 minutes without enough oxygen and he's not breathing. Yeah. Mm hmm.

They give him rescue breaths and he starts breathing again. But it is impossible to overestimate how close Mark came to dying in this avalanche that he did not want to ski there at all. He got pressured into skiing there by Aaron. The three of them do manage to get to safety. Mark and Chadwick never speak to Aaron again. Yeah. Yeah. God. I want to be clear that.

I'm telling you the story. I mean, it was in the news at the time, so I've read the news stories. But largely this play by play is from Aaron's book. Like this is how he depicts it. And he says, quote, we had survived, but Mark and Chadwick blamed me for pressuring them to ski the bowl. I lost two friends that Sunday because of the choices we made. Babe. I had to put down the book. I was so upset. Yeah. I was so upset by that sentence.

The choices we made. Mark and Chadwick left the next morning and they haven't spoken to me since. Rather than regret those choices, I swore to myself that I would learn from their consequences. It feels very different to say rather, like if you're the one who's in danger, you could decide to regret it or not. But if you almost kill your friend, like you should regret that. This is my...

Personal ethic. This is where like this is where I'm like getting so angry, even like reading the quotes. It's really, I really, really, really struggled with this part. Quote, after the resolution ball avalanche, I found it easier to let go of the ego and attitude that otherwise pushed me to risk more than I was comfortable with. I'm curious when he says he lost friends because of the avalanche and the choices, quote unquote, we made. Did he lose them because of what happened or did he lose them because of his attitude? Yeah.

afterward. Like when I read this, I mean, there's so much projection happening here and guesswork that's not written in the story. But like, I wonder if there's an attitude he could have had afterward that would have made it so he could reconcile his friendship with them. I wonder if what really made them angry wasn't the fact that they had skied this bowl, that he had pressured them into the skiing the bowl.

But that he's sort of shirking responsibility afterward. Yeah. Like, did he apologize? Who knows? Yeah. And I wonder if he even knows. We don't see it. We hear every other detail, but we don't hear if he apologized. It really reminds me of like that trope about politicians being like, well, a lot of people might die, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. It's like, well, yeah, you are. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and it also feels like the kind of thing that happens when you are really big in the news and you have to do a memoir about it and then talk about the rest of your life. And then because it feels like it's, you know, the writing of somebody who has not or the thoughts of somebody who believes they have reflected on this fully but has not yet done that.

I think that's a really, really good point. This book came out in 2004. It came out 20 years ago. I'm sure like he was offered a big book deal. You know, you have to sort of jump on those moments when they come. Like Aaron Ralston now is 20 years older. I'm guessing he wouldn't write the same book now. Like this is the part in the horror movie where you are given kind of a premonition of how things could go if you don't learn your lesson from this. And you're like, I'm going to learn something else. Yeah.

The Aspen Times writes about this incident. And I think this is an interesting story to go back to because it's a major feature. It's written by Tim Moutry, March 13th, 2003. And it's about Aaron before the whole arm thing happened. So it's a glimpse of him. He's in the news, but it's before he's famous. It's like when you see Rachel Ray on an old New Jersey morning show. It's just like that. Yeah. It says...

Ralston, a mechanical engineer by training, knows he crossed the line when he led two friends into that east-facing bowl in dicey avalanche conditions.

quote, that's still part of what I'm working through. Do I really have good judgment? Have I really just been getting lucky on all these trips? What's going to happen when I try to go farther? Ralston said. Then he says, quote, let someone know where you are and what you're doing. So if you should get into trouble, at least there's a remote chance they'll know where to find your body. He added with a chuckle. I think this might be foreshadowing. The world is full of foreshadowing. It's true. Here's another quote.

Mountain Rescue is concerned that I'm going to be bait for the next rescue, which is the attitude we usually take when we see people who we don't know their experience or background going in to do something more ambitious than our perception of their ability. Oh, they're rescue bait. This is how he's describing himself. Yeah. Ralston always leaves behind detailed itineraries with friends or family with explicit instructions should he become overdue.

Yeah. And that quote from him is very interesting because it's as if he's saying everyone may perceive me as too inexperienced, but I am actually more they just lack the ability to correctly perceive my abilities. And it's like, oh, it's weird that everybody thinks that. Mark, the guy who got buried alive, who almost died, has now taken the rest of his life and used it

to teach avalanche safety. And he's never spoken about Aaron. I looked him up because I was curious sort of what he's doing now because he drops out of the story. And one of the things he teaches people when he's teaching them about avalanche safety is heuristic traps, which I think is a really, really useful framework for looking at this story. So it's easy to say, oh, Aaron was arrogant. He made bad decisions.

But the truth is complicated. He made bad decisions, but he was also highly skilled and experienced. So if we look at these heuristic traps, which I'll explain more in a second, it's a helpful way for us to see the situation and analyze what happened without saying, oh, he was dumb or, oh, he was a hero without sort of judgment about him. I think

that may be one of the themes of the shows that we do together and really of the show generally although normally I'm talking not about nature but about tabloids but you know come see come saw and

is the idea that most of what happens to you doesn't really have that much to do with you. Yeah, it's true. So are you familiar with heuristic traps? No, I have no idea. I feel like heuristic is a word I pretended to know what it means in academia, but I don't. It's okay. It's okay. So it's like specifically a thing that people talk about with avalanche safety. And it has a lot of other applications. But basically, heuristics are mental shortcuts that we take to

Okay. And they're often very helpful. But when you're in a wilderness situation, these mental shortcuts are often what lead us into really dangerous situations. And there's a way in which the more experienced you are, the more mental shortcuts you're taking and the more prone you can be to falling into these traps. And I'm going to

Explain what a couple of those are, because I think it's really helpful for us to look at the situation and see the ways that any of us could fall into traps rather than looking at the situation differently.

And being like, oh, this is all about Aaron Ralston's ego. And not just in nature, because like our stuff, we live with heavy objects. It's true. And this is this is for me, too, as a wilderness person, because I feel judgy about Aaron. And I have to remind myself, I can't think myself immune to the kind of situations that he ended up in just because he's

I make somewhat different risk-taking decisions. So I'm going to read to you a couple examples from a paper called Evidence of Heuristic Traps in Recreational Avalanche Accidents written by Ian McCammon in 2002. Thank you, Ian. Thank you, Ian. And these are these mental shortcuts we take. So there's one that's called familiarity. The familiarity heuristic is the tendency to believe that our behavior is correct to the extent that we have done it before. I've skied this part of the mountain before.

It's okay to do it again. The commitment heuristic is the tendency to believe that a behavior is correct to the extent that it is consistent with a prior commitment we made. Oh, I set out this morning to climb this mountain. Therefore, like when I encounter obstacles along the way, I already made the decision and I should trust the decision I made earlier. It would also, if you find this unrelatable, you can compare this to going on a trip to Ikea. Yeah.

Say more. The bookcases were here before. They must be in this area. And then you end up lost, disoriented and increasingly confused. Or I went to Ikea. I must buy furniture because I went to Ikea to buy furniture. Even if.

the ideal furniture isn't there. Here's another one, social proof. The social proof heuristic is the tendency to believe that a behavior is correct to the extent that other people are engaged in it. Yeah, this all relates to the satanic panic as well. Oh, yeah. Okay, so the Ikea, a great example, is when you see a long line and you're like...

I assume that this line is for something because why else would there be a line? And then it turns out that it's like a line for the wrong thing or just not even a line because people believe in the line. I love Sarah's IKEA version of heuristic traps. Okay, here's another one. Scarcity. And I'm going to read you the whole quote about this one. A substantial body of research suggests that people react strongly at times even aggressively to

to any perceived restrictions to prerogatives they feel they are entitled to, regardless of whether or not they intend to exercise those prerogatives.

In our everyday decision-making, this manifests itself as the scarcity heuristic. We tend to distort the value of opportunities we perceive as limited and to compete with others to obtain them. They're discontinuing the blue Ikea bags. Suddenly everyone is running out with armfuls of them. Yeah.

Is that fair? Yeah, I think so. I think so. There's a lot of ways we use these. Yeah. So I'm going to tell you what Aaron does on the day this article about him comes out. And as you're listening, I want you to think what heuristic traps are being demonstrated in all his decisions throughout the day. Ooh, okay. This story comes out on the day it's released. He's in an area that's had really high avalanche activity all week.

He decides he's going to climb his 45th winter 14er solo that day. Mm-hmm. He leaves at like 3 in the morning, and he decides to take a shortcut up a gully. And we talked in the Andes episode about climbing gullies and how they can be like funnels for things that are falling on you. Mm-hmm.

A huge ice block falls past his head and he writes in his book, Tara chilled my blood, but I climbed on, hoping that the 20-pound ice cube didn't have any friends. They always do, though. They always do. They...

They always do, but he makes it up. He makes it up the gully. Guess what he hits? A curtain of ice that he wasn't expecting. He wasn't planning on ice climbing today. He doesn't have the right equipment. He decides to free solo it. Climb it without ropes. Wow. That is definitely that first heuristic. I just, or one of the heuristic that says I decided to climb this thing today. It really is. I decided to go to Ikea. Now I must get the meatballs.

Now, he could go back. He could safely descend at this point. But he doesn't because he wants to meet his climbing goal.

I remember like days ago when his friend he got his friends caught in an avalanche and he said after the resolution. I found it easier to let go of the ego and attitude that pushed me to take more risks than I was comfortable with. Yeah. And it's like, I guess your ghostwriter just said you should say that. I don't know. At this point in the book, I'm reading this and I'm like, why are you telling me the reader this?

Yeah. You made this decision on the mountain. There's a way in which I can understand why you made that decision. I don't think I would make the same decision, but I can see why you would. But the decision I really don't understand is why you're telling me this now. Right. I mean, it feels like either a person is writing a memoir while still lying to themselves about sort of

What was motivating various parts of their life or it was ghostwritten or sort of, you know, written with the help of a ghostwriter in such a way that the publisher insisted on there being like more of a fake trajectory of like being, you know, in the process of learning something when you're clearly not. This is a case for...

Everyone who has like a time sensitive memoir coming out to have like a required waiting period for his sake, for his sake, because I feel bad. Like there's things in this memoir that are really compelling, like the way he describes his brain as like what's going through his head as he's trapped later on is so well written. Yeah. Well, yeah. And the question of kind of how much what what motivates you.

The degree of recklessness that you've exhibited, you know, in your life is like a really hard question right after you've barely survived something that you're then writing a memoir about. So it does, you know, you got to...

get a memoir out of somebody who's been in the news, even if it's news that directly relates to their own trauma, before people forget who they are. Yeah, which is, you know, it makes sense, you know, on a lot of logical levels, but also kind of, there's a degree of scarcity mentality there that I think does mean that we get worse material than we could if we took more time with stuff. But I realized that I'm, you know, not speaking a language that publishing understands when I say that.

So, but anyway, he makes the climb. I don't even care. He like, he's happy about it. He climbs the mountain. Like I resent learning about it. I resent reading about him climbing this mountain. I don't like saying negative things about people. So I'm really like in a pickle about this, but I have such a strong emotion. But I want to take a small detour right now into something that has absolutely changed my worldview. And I learned it in an unexpected place, which was

hunter safety classes in 2012 in Iowa. Yeah, that is unexpected. Love it. Okay, tell me, please. I'm excited. I was vegan at the time, too. But I took a hunter safety, a gun safety course. Because, you know, you're a renaissance woman. And one thing from that course changed my life. And it was just this like random page in the workbook. And it was called the five stages of hunter development. And the stages are the shooting stage,

where you're a new hunter and you just want to be shooting your gun. You just want to be shooting. You don't care what you're shooting at. You just want to shoot your gun. Yes. Yeah. The limiting out stage, which is when you want to shoot as much as you can, as many animals as you can. The kid playing kids playing Oregon Trail might go through some version of this possibly. I went through all of this with Oregon Trail. The trophy stage, which is where you want like

A trophy animal, like a big, beautiful specimen. The method stage, the method where you care a lot about the way you're doing it. And the final stage, the most advanced stage of hunter development is called the sportsman stage. And in the sportsman stage, you don't necessarily care if you hunt at all.

On a day when you go into the woods, what you care about is being in the woods, being with the people you're with, seeing animals. You care about the whole experience and you're not trying to reach a specific goal for your own ego. And this applies to so many things in life. There are so many things that parallel the five stages of hunter development. Well, what jumps to mind for you, though? Well, for me.

I see Aaron Ralston in the trophy stage right now. But I think another thing that's really compelling about looking at these things as stages as opposed to discrete categories is that it gives people credit for the fact that they're probably going to evolve out of that stage. So if someone's in the trophy stage, that is a step on the way to the method stage and the sportsman stage. Yeah.

Well, and you know, it definitely occurs to me to compare that to the development of a writer as well. Oh, yeah. Because you begin with it's like, it's just something you love to do. You want to do it all the time. And then you progress to having certain goals. You know, and to me, that's sort of being a young, you know, young person or young adult and wanting to publish and get in this or that publication or, you know, to have a book out. And, and I do think that like, if you are able to keep progressing, then you do, you

you know, ideally come out the other side feeling in the end, like the goal is to like have a nice day,

writing. I think the trophy stage maybe is about accomplishing enough things that it means something that you accomplished them. It is significant to you. Once you've bagged whatever trophies apply in your field, then I think there does come a time when you're like, well, that was great, but it's not entirely satisfying in and of itself. And I feel like ultimately the most satisfying thing is doing the thing that you love. And I agree with you. It seems like he is...

Yeah, like the challenge is a big part of the excitement, it would seem. Yeah, absolutely. And actually now I'm looking at this list and I feel like Aaron is probably in the method stage too because he's doing solo winter mountaineering. Like being solo is about trophy, but it's also about like relying on himself and getting into and out of these situations based on his own skills. So this brings us to

Saturday morning, April 26, 2003. Aaron decides to go canyoneering. He's going to explore some canyons. He goes to a trailhead and he meets these two women, Megan and Christy.

And they start chatting. He explains Edward Abbey to them and then tells us that he explained Edward Abbey to them. Yeah. You know, that is that's a sporting event for guys of that age. It's a sporting event. It's it's one of the stages. And then they part ways. He continues on. He's feeling good. He's listening to fish. And as he's descending from a ledge, he climbs onto a rock. The

the size of a large bus tire that's sort of wedged above a canyon. He tests it, it wiggles a little bit, and he decides to use it to climb down into the canyon. So he starts to lower himself off of it. It begins to rotate. He lets go and drops down and the rock falls on top of him and it traps his arm.

And is the goal in what he's doing to kind of that if this horrible accident hadn't happened, that he would kind of let go and fall into this canyon and then get to sort of hike around at the bottom and have a nice time? Yeah. Like he's exploring. He's having fun. He's poking around, you know, like he's just having a good time. It's not a particularly big trip. He tries to lift the rock instantly because he knows that.

He's full of adrenaline and he has the presence of mind to think like if there's going to be a moment I can lift this, it's going to be right now. He shifts it like a tiny, tiny bit and it settles even more onto his arm. Oh, my God.

Is he feeling any pain at this point or is it just shock? It sounds like it's mostly shock and adrenaline and like his mind is reeling. He takes a swig from his water bladder and it's empty. Oh my God. The stone is about four feet off the canyon floor. So he's able to stand and his right wrist is quote compressed to one sixth of its normal thickness. He has no feeling and,

His wrist is holding the stone, so even if he could pull it out a little bit, the stone would settle onto it even more. He starts thinking about if anyone's going to find him, if anyone's going to look for him. It's Saturday. His roommates will probably miss him on Monday. His work might notice he's gone on Tuesday. Maybe a search crew would go out on Wednesday. But he didn't use his credit card, and he didn't tell people where he was going, and

So people won't be able to track him by his credit card. They won't know what trailhead he left from. The earliest someone could possibly find him is probably Friday, maybe Sunday, a week from now. He's calculating all this. He thinks he's going to live till Tuesday. And probably the search crew will find him like five days later, his body. Which is, I do commend having the presence of mind to sort of strategically think through all of this and be

honest with yourself about what your chances are in this moment and just the realities of the situation. Absolutely. He's thinking, okay, here's what he has with him. Two bean burritos, a CD player, batteries, a camcorder, a multi-tool, a headlamp, a water bottle, his empty hydration pack, a climbing rope, a harness, and a little bit of repelling equipment. So if you were him and these were your supplies, you

What would you try to do? Oh, my God. I have no idea. Dissociate, you know? I mean, because like the rock is not going to move, right? Like a bus tire is really big. I assume it weighs like tons. They found out later, they estimated later it weighs 800 pounds. Oh, my God. Yeah. So like I don't, I'm sure that there are some human beings who could move that with some kind of like a lever or like just using strength plus like some sort of tools, but like

Oh, my God. You know, I mean, I guess you do very quickly perhaps come to the conclusion. Like, it's hard to think creatively to the extent of imagining doing something besides having to just cut your hand off. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but he comes up with four plans and amputating his arm is only one of them. So it's the last resort. So the ideas he comes up with in the sort of immediate aftermath are one,

He has batteries. Can he use the battery acid to erode the stone? Oh, my God. To get his arm out. Nice one. Can he chip away at the rock with the multi-tool? Right. Could it be soft-ish? Can he use the ropes to make a pulley system to lift the rock enough that he can get his arm off? It says a lot that you ask me what I would do, and I'm like, I give up. Pass. Pass.

That's why when we go into the wilderness, I'll go with you, Sarah. Yes, exactly. That's why I will not go to the canyon by myself.

Okay, so the pulley. And then his last option, he's like, I could cut off my arm. So he decides to start with a more pleasant option, which is chipping away at the rock. And he tested, I think this is actually incredibly beautiful. He tested by carving the phrase geologic time includes now into the rock, which is a quote from a book about mountaineering. And it means like the earth is still moving. Yeah.

Including when it falls on top of you. I think that's gorgeous. That's so poetic. I love it. And as he's doing this, he realizes...

The stone is really hard. And actually, that's why it hadn't eroded like the rest of the canyon. You know, the canyon was eroded by water and this rock was left behind because it's hard. So chipping away at it is really not going to work. Also, his arm is blocking the place he needs to chip away at. Right. And he's working with his and his. Is he left handed or right handed? He's right handed.

And his right hand is under the boulder. At 6 p.m., three hours after getting trapped, he comes to clarity that he's going to have to cut his arm off. But he doesn't want to.

So he's going to try to exhaust all these other options first. And he can't decide how often to take a drink. Remember, he has just a little bit of water. He decides to take a sip every 90 minutes. And he's sort of experimenting at this point. He tries to, he keeps trying to chip at the rock in the hope that he won't have to cut his arm off.

And he's switching off between sitting and standing and the chipping's keeping him warm. And he does a calculation and he figures he would have to chip at rock for 150 hours to have any possibility of pulling his arm off. And he would die. Yeah.

Before he could do that, pulling his arm out, excuse me, not off. I feel like this is a moment when it really comes in handy to be an engineer. Oh, absolutely. To sort of think that way innately to some extent, and also to just sort of approach problems in terms of

The realities of time, among other things. Day two. Does he sleep? Can he sleep? Not really. Mm-mm. Yeah. He hears voices. Oh, my God. And he starts yelling. Absolutely yelling, hoping that these people will hear him. Mm-hmm. And it turns out to be a rat scratching around. Oh.

The sound of his own voice yelling panicked him so much that it takes him a long time to calm down. And he realizes he has to be really careful about yelling because that is like revving up his adrenaline so much. It's energy he can't spare spending. That afternoon, he starts thinking more about amputation.

Because the pulley system didn't work. Chipping away didn't work. So he makes a tourniquet from the tubing from his water bladder. Do you know what a water bladder is? I think so. It's like a camelback. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's one of the brands. So it's like a pouch of water that you take when you're backpacking, I feel like, or trail running. I feel like I see people do that because it's sort of...

Packs up nicer, I guess. Flatter. Yeah, absolutely. And it can stay in your backpack and there's like a tube, sort of a bendy straw you're drinking out of. So he tries making a tourniquet from the tubing and he like pokes himself with the blade of his multi-tool, which is an inch and a half long. He can't do it. He just can't like bring himself to try to amputate his arm. And also he has bones in there. He doesn't know anything.

how he would get through his bones. So he, he like gives up. Forgive me for the ridiculousness of this metaphor, but also I know that we're getting into a freaky part and, um,

You know, let's be honest, I'm pretty much here for comic relief. It's like when you bring a watermelon home and you're like, if I open this watermelon without a plan, like I might be opening myself up to a world of trouble because like you have to figure out if you have enough room in the fridge for a broken down watermelon. Can you tell this is a big problem in my life right now?

You have to commit to eating the whole watermelon. You do. Once you open it, you can't go back. That's my point. And just that, you know, in this example, and in the case of anybody, you know, who has to do kind of field medicine on themselves in some capacity or working on a patient in many cases, I presume, like once you start, you can't stop. I guess really there aren't any medical procedures you should start and then go make a sandwich in the middle of, you know, because the like that I imagine the potential for like

Bleeding out really, really quickly would be at hand. I also imagine that. I mean, and he's an engineer, not a doctor. So he doesn't. Yeah. He does not have surgical experience. No. Cutting off his arm is an option that appears to him from like moment one. Mm hmm. But he's ruling it out. He tries it. He rules it out. And so instead, he decides to make a video because he has a camcorder. Mm hmm.

And I feel like this is one of those things that like now you'd have a phone, everyone would be making videos. But this was like right at the moment where it was like the fact that he had a camcorder and he made all these recordings of himself are part of what made this story go so viral. You can go on YouTube and you can find the videos of him. I mean, they're everywhere. He released them talking to the camera as he's basically waiting to die. So he introduces himself. He gives his parents names.

He asks the person who finds the camera, presumably attached to his skeleton, to try to find his parents and return the camera to them so they can see the video. And he starts basically recording his will. He's talking about his assets, his

Doing the I mean, what would you do if you were gonna die in the wilderness? You could take a video for your loved ones. What would you be doing with it? Right. There's sort of the pragmatic things of sort of who gets what if you have anything of value, but like primarily you would be using or I would be using the time that I had.

To speak to everybody I loved for the last time. Yeah, I would be thinking about not wanting there to be unanswered questions for the people I left behind and sort of being like, hey...

I love you all. I've been having a really great life. Everything has been going amazing except for the hand thing or something like that. Not not those exact words. I would have more time to think about it. But really, because you know that you are you're given this sort of gift of a conduit between the present and the future and are given a way to live.

Because I do think that like when people go missing, family members often worry that there was something that they could have done. And so, you know, no matter what the outcome turns out to be or doesn't if you don't find out. So I think that just having the ability to tell everybody that it wasn't their fault would be really nice. Yeah.

Would you leave a message for listeners of this podcast? Oh, sure. I would be like, dear listeners, well, you know me, you know that this kind of makes sense. But boy, we had some great times together. And, you know, just think of me whenever you watch Newsies or whenever you yell at the news or whatever.

Whenever you defend Tanya Harding, my spirit will live on. Sarah's last podcast. That's because you're in the sportsman stage of podcasting. I hope so. Okay, so yes, he has he has the video camera, which and I knew that there was a video camera element to this mainly because it, you know, it's a part of the movie. But I had forgotten that that was such a big part of the story at the time. But of course, if I'm like a 60 Minutes producer, I'm like,

this is fantastic TV. We must play this in primetime. Absolutely. And he's remarkably poised in these videos. I mean, he's talking calmly. You can sort of feel the fear, but they're very compelling. And I think part of why this story is so gripping and became so popular is because

It's a situation that invites us to put ourselves in his shoes. Like, could we cut off his arm? What would we be saying to the video? Part of what I want to know about the story is I want like the statistics on how many people I trapped by a limb in

and do or don't attempt to cut it off. Like, would most of us do this if we ended up in that situation? Is he actually that unusual? Like, do a lot of people try? Not a lot of people do. A high percentage of people in this situation try to cut off a limb, but then, you know, die on their way to safety. Like, I want to be able to compare him to a population of his trapped peers because, I mean, I hate to say it, but it must be a situation that is not...

certainly not unheard of. Well, and do you think that maybe that is also part of, in a way, the sort of subconscious appeal of his story specifically breaking at that time? Because if we treat him as really unique for having had to do this, then we get to ignore the reality that like, actually, you know, there are a lot of people in the world and like some number of them have had to

Think about cutting a limb off. And some of them have actually had to do that. And most of it is probably because they're being bombed.

And not because they went on like a cool hike. Yes, right. Yeah, that it's outside of the scope of who should expect to suffer. And that we have these sort of categories when we learn about the world of who we expect to suffer and who we don't, which I don't think is, you know, anything against us as people. I think that there's so much

horror and cruelty in the world, but like we have to figure out a way to navigate daily life without being immobilized by the pain that we're witnessing all the time. But and that maybe also, you know, this story became as big as it did or stories like this do because there is the sort of as part of our culture, this expectation of safety as a white middle class American. So we we as a group and as the people who make media and make the news typically like to gather around

Right. Like, how would this story be different if someone else caused his arm?

Would this guy still be idolized in the same way as a hero of the situation? Or what if this had happened to him in his own house? You know, because I know that that can happen, right? Or an earthquake. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, there's something. I mean, there's like an alchemy to this very particular story that made it blow up at the moment it did. Yeah. But I don't know that us talking about that is not an attempt to take anything...

away from this story because it's a remarkable story that there's a reason why we're talking about it today. But also just to say that sort of, yeah, for every story that becomes this kind of huge and folkloric, they're big not because they're unique, but because they represent some bigger part of human experience that maybe we're not prepared to talk about except through like one story about it that has to stand for everything else. But that, you know, yeah, humans go through a lot more survival

than we give ourselves credit for, as you've talked about on the show in the past, too. There might be something also about it being aspirational. Like people...

might want to be like this guy, but they wouldn't want to be like someone in a war zone. And there are protective mechanisms in place to keep them from relating to people in war zones. Right. And that it's just one boulder as opposed to, you know, something much bigger or something systemic. Aaron knows that his limiting factor is going to be liquid. He's in the desert. It's incredibly hot. Yeah.

So when he pees, he stores it in his camelback. And he's not drinking it. But by the early hours of Tuesday, it's been two and a half days, the pee has like stratified into layers of gunk and he tries tasting it. Is that good or bad? I don't know. I would start off by drinking my own urine straight away because I think if there's one thing worse than urine, it's urine that's been sitting out. Yeah.

It's like that. He takes a sip. It's not good. He wants water instead. He drinks some water. He spills a little bit. And he feels as he watches this water pour out, like he's watching like hours of his life drip onto the ground. Like, oh, I just spilled six hours of the rest of my life, which is apt. Yeah.

And at night, it's getting cold. The air drops like 40 degrees. It goes from 100 to 60. He can feel that his heart rate is irregular. He's really falling apart. By now, we're on day three. Yeah. Oh, my God. At 8 a.m., he picks up his blade and he sort of stares at it. And without really thinking about what he's doing, he stabs it into his arm. And he feels the blade knock into his bone.

Oh, my God.

And he's like, wow, great. Now I have another wound. Fantastic. I can't get through my arm and I introduced another one. At least it's not raining. At least it's not raining because then there would be a flash flood. Although then, you know, you could at least hydrate a little.

This is like I would spend a certain amount of time just like trying to tell myself I wasn't that this was really happening, you know, and I do think that that is like gaslight yourself. Yeah. Well, I guess that like I think that is one of the hardest parts when things get really dire is to have the presence of mind to believe fully in what is going on and be strategic about it, you know, because I think I don't know, just looking around it.

how we're doing in America. It's like the human impulse denial is very strong and has never been more prominently on display as far as I can tell, you know, so it's just very impressive whenever anyone registers reality at all at this point in my book. It's really interesting that you mentioned that because the way he describes what his mind is doing at this point is that he's on these like psychedelic dream trips where he's living in his mind and then every once in a while this voice will tell him to go check on his body.

Yeah. And the book does an incredible job of describing his mental state as all this is going on. So if that's something that's interesting to you, pick up the book for that reason alone. He's having these visions of

And doorways of friends leading him places and the visions feel real. Like he can feel them with his senses. He can touch walls. He can smell things. But he can't like move his body in these visions. And he's just sort of logicking his way through these situations, through these doorways, through seeing people who aren't really there.

He's telling himself this can't be real. I feel it, but it can't be real. I have to check on my body. And then he'll return to his body and he'll discover that his body is shivering violently and he's starving and he's in pain. And he describes his consciousness as gradually filling his body from the legs up, going into and out of his body as his mind is just taking him places where

to help him survive or because he's just losing his grip on life. He describes this experience as shifting between heaven and hell. And when he's in his body and he's in the canyon, he's imagining what his parents are going through, what the search crew might be doing, which is nothing yet. And the conclusion he comes to again and again is that the search crew cannot possibly get there before he dies. He's going to die first. He doesn't know that his roommates actually called the cops on Tuesday evening and

And thought the cops would start looking and the cops did not. They like registered that he was gone, but they didn't start a search crew because they don't have any information to go off. And he's in there. Sometimes he's rewatching the videos on his camera, which is like he's playing with the battery life for sure. But it's like having having like a private TV, which is funny. I did that on Naked and Afraid when I had a little diary cam like at three in the morning. I'd be like.

If only I had a screen to distract me from the lions. And then I'd watch it.

If only I could scroll just a little. And that's what he did, too. He's watching himself on the camera just when he feels like he's giving in and he doesn't care anymore. He has a vision of a baby, basically, that he perceives as his future son. And it gives him this boost of wanting to live again and keep going, keep trying to hold on in this body that is decomposing with him in it.

You know, I remember that part of the story from the movie, which I remember dramatizes it in my memory really well. And it describes my sort of level of spirituality that like you could sort of talk about how like, well, you know, it's like the body digs deep to sort of find what it needs to motivate you to do whatever when you have to do it and so on. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. But also like, let's just let that be his baby. You know, like, why not? Yeah.

I have a friend in northern Norway who's in his 60s. No, he's in his 70s now, but he was in his 60s at the time. And he would always say, there's a lot we don't understand between the earth and the sky. It was just sort of his humble way of saying, like, who knows if these things are true? I love that quote. I love that, too. On Wednesday, his manager at the gear store calls his mom.

who gets into his email and starts trying to figure out where he is. Now, of course, he doesn't know this, but his mom is motivated. Like as soon as she finds out he's missing, like she is in action trying to get as much, like the mom is on it. Luckily his password is 123456. It took a while. It took a while for her to get the password, but she's mobile. Like as soon as mom is involved, like things are happening fast. Yeah. What's her name? Dawn.

Donna. Donna is on it. And meanwhile, he wakes up or he doesn't wake up. He sort of like comes back to his body, right? He can't believe he's still alive. It's Thursday. He like feels like, oh my gosh, I'm still here. His mouth is raw from drinking urine. But he's starting to feel weirdly hopeful because if he was because the longer he lasts, the more likelihood there is that there could possibly be a search crew that encounters him while he's still alive.

So he starts to actually feel his mood get better. And something has changed with his arm too, which is that it's basically rotted while still attached to him. Is that good or bad for what we, I guess, good? It's dangerous. But he gets so repulsed by this dead limb. And remember, he's so sleep deprived. He's so hungry. He's so dehydrated. He's not in his right mind.

He starts stabbing his arm again. And this time the knife goes in like into butter. Like because his arm has decomposed, it just gives way before the dull blade. Well, that's great because yeah, the tiny little multi-tool blade is one of, I think, the aspects of the story that works on the mind the most. He has a revelation.

Which is that now that he can cut through his flesh, and not just that he can cut through his flesh, but he actively doesn't want his arm attached to him anymore. He is repulsed by his dead arm. He's no longer sad about cutting off part of his body. He wants it off. And he realizes if he can break his bone clear in half, then he'll be able to cut his arm off. The bone was always what stopped him. And he'll have to bend his arm until it breaks. Oh my God. Yeah.

And so he drops his weight. He just stops supporting himself. He hears a crack that sounds like a gunshot echoing in the canyon. And when he touches his arm again, he can feel the gap in his bone. He has broken it completely. And on the first try, which is really ideal. And like, what is the pain like at this point? At this point, he's in extraordinary pain. And he's cutting off the flesh and the nerve pain is the worst.

He's hitting, he has to, he has to cut through a nerve. He describes it as he had to recalibrate his personal scale of what it feels like to be hurt. It's as if I thrust my entire arm into a cauldron of magma, horrific, horrific pain.

And then he's free. And does he do a tourniquet or does he just like go in there? He does do a tourniquet. He did with the tubing. Great. Now, he also doesn't know that as this is happening, they have found his truck at the trailhead. Search and rescue teams are getting closer and closer and they're starting to deploy helicopters to look for him. He's only thinking about the fact that he's eight miles from the trailhead. He's so depleted. He's going to have to climb out of the canyon and

He's going to have to rappel down a 65-foot sheer wall, and he's going to have to hike out in this incredibly depleted state. He manages to do it. He manages to rappel. At the bottom of the wall, he gets to a puddle, and it is the best water he's ever tasted. He chugs three Nalgene's full of this water.

He starts to get diarrhea because his body can't handle it. His arm is incredibly painful. And he just keeps going. He just keeps moving toward that trailhead. After six miles, he sees people, two adults and a kid. And he yells, help. Hmm.

And they hear him and they start running toward him. Now, these three people are named Monique and Eric. They have a son named Andy. And they knew that there was a guy lost here because a search and rescue crew had seen them at the trailhead and been like, hey, keep an eye out for this guy.

So when they see someone yelling help, they're like, oh my gosh, like we found the person who's lost here. And so they run to him. They have Oreos. They give him Oreos. They're trying to decide what to do. And they decide that Eric will stay with Aaron and Monique will run to the trailhead with their son. After she leaves, Aaron's like, why did they bring the little kid? Like, is he really that fast? Like maybe the kid should have stayed. Right.

But the decision's made. And as they're running to the trailhead, the helicopter finds them. It's close because it was already out looking. And he realizes later if the helicopter had come just a tiny bit later, he would have died by the time it arrived. He was so close to death at the time the helicopter finds him.

Or if he had cut off his arm earlier, he would have died before getting to the trailhead or before he could get help. The timing is exactly right. Everything lined up so precisely for him to survive. Any one of these factors could have been changed. If he had been more effective at cutting off his arm earlier, he would not have lived. And he's able to get care at a hospital. You know, we have our happy ending. The epilogue of his book...

It's called A Farewell to Arm, which I love. I love it. I love it. There's a real poetic sensibility here between this and Geologic Time Includes Now that I really, really appreciate. Totally. Medically, it's a pretty complicated recovery. He does have an infection. He hates being hooked up to IVs because to him it represents weakness. Right.

which I strongly dispute. I think it represents science. There you go. Yeah, I like that one. And miracles. And he finds recovery just frustrating in general. He finds it a really difficult process for him. By July, he's rock climbing again with a prosthetic arm.

And he climbs five 14ers in 30 hours. Oh, my God. The math on that is tough to figure out. That's amazing. They're close to each other. Oh, my God. But wow. By the end of the season, he says, I was performing at or near or even in some cases above my ability levels prior to the accident. Hmm. Right. That's my response, too. I'm happy he's happy. Yeah.

his severed arm and his forearm get retrieved by a search crew. It took a lot of equipment to move the boulder. Like there's no way he could have moved the boulder on his own. Man, what do they do with his arm? It's cremated. And he scattered the ashes of his arm at the site of the accident, which I think is interesting because he could have just left his arm there.

But I understand the intentionality. Although I don't know if parks let you do that. I feel like for cleanliness. Yeah, you know, just to, yeah, the whole biohazard issue. But, or, you know, so you don't freak out any other...

Yeah, exactly. I love that this is a story about him immediately getting back to climbing as soon as he possibly can because it feels like... Like, this story is really a Western, right? Like, I was just talking to my mom last night about how her favorite thing in the world when she was a kid were Westerns, and that was what was on TV, and that was what kids in the 50s grew up with. And I think that is such a great genre because, you know, it's part of America sort of envisioning itself both for good or for ill, but also because it has...

so much capacity for different kinds of narratives. And there's a very strong tendency in Westerns and in sort of American narrative towards revenge and towards this idea of like, you know, the Captain Ahab of it all. And the idea of what if he felt he had to get revenge against this rock or this canyon or something? What if he had to swear to destroy all canyons? You know, like I can see a sort of like...

Revenge movie version of this where that is the lesson. And instead, it's like there's nothing wrong with with having adventures and going outside. It's just that, you know, maybe when you're young, you take too many risks with it.

I think it's interesting how different he feels to me at the end of the story. Do you feel like you're watching him describe his own growth? Absolutely. I mean, it's hard to imagine how someone could go through this and not be transformed by it psychologically, emotionally, in terms of maturity level, in terms of relationship to wilderness, relationship to yourself. Yeah.

He went on, he completed his goal of being the first person to solo climb every 14er in the U.S. in winter. Wow. After this incident, he completed that goal, which I think is kind of remarkable that this is a guy who is only known in pop culture for cutting off his own arm, but he's also an extraordinarily accomplished mountaineer on top of that. And aside from that, and after that, and that's a story that you rarely hear. Well, yeah, or that, you know, so often people get...

known for kind of, you know, the most famous thing about their life is something that happened to them, as opposed to something that they did. Absolutely. Although I mean, talk about agency and cutting off your own. Well, yeah, that's true. It's a real, it's really about both in this case. Yeah. The rock falls on you, but then you decide what to do about it. Yeah. And I do think that like, it still has that drive. Yeah. Anybody who hears that story has to wonder,

whether they would have the capacity to do that. And I think the answer maybe is that we don't know, like we don't know until we end up in those situations. But I do think that we very often surprise ourselves with how much we can handle once we know that we have to. It also makes me think how many people were in situations like this, made it as far as cutting off their arm or metaphorically cutting off their arm or doing the extreme thing that they needed to do to survive, and then still didn't make it.

And yeah, that this was a case where a lot of it came down to chance and the chance all lined up. And then I'm sure we also as people, we need to tell these stories where a story was very, very unlucky until suddenly it was lucky. How would this story be different on the news if it's like here's a guy who cut off his own arm and then died in the parking lot?

Yeah, and I think there is, like in the stories we tell, there is that kind of survivor bias of we like to think that sort of, yeah, the people who survive are the people who

are able to keep a clear head and do something extraordinary in order to make it. But really, the reality is that there are a lot of people who do keep a cool head and who do do amazing things or show great bravery, and they don't make it. And that that, you know, makes sense as something that we less want to put on the news on Sunday night, but that that is, yeah, part of

important part of these stories that we tell and what we learn from them. I think there's also an interesting comparison to be made between Aaron Ralston and Chris McCandless. Because Chris McCandless is controversial, right? A lot of people will say, I just can't stand that

People idolize him. I can't, I can't, you know, he just represents... People in Arizona don't talk about how much they hate Aaron Ralston all the time, presumably. Please weigh in if you're from Arizona because I don't know that. But it's not conversation I've ever heard in the way I've heard people complaining about Chris McCandless. And I think it's very arguable that Aaron Ralston took greater risks than Chris McCandless did, that they both had...

lot of skill and that the major difference is that Aaron Ralston had exceptionally good luck and Chris McCandless had pretty darn bad luck.

And so we revile people who died. Like sometimes it's that simple. We look down on the people who died because we think we wouldn't be them. And we look up to the people who live because we want to be them. Aaron Ralston is aspirational. Chris McCandless is so often dismissed. And the differences between them are largely things that were out of their control. And yeah, we love winners who manage to not die. Yeah.

We love them. We can't get enough of them. And we look down on like there's so much disdain for the people who die along the way. I know we're kind of I mean, we as a country are in an early phase of of whatever the five phases of being a country are. We still look at places who have existed for longer and are taken over by another country or experience some kind of massive devastation and are like, couldn't be me.

You know, the sense of being of needing to believe that you can stay lucky forever is very strong with us. I think it really I really I mean, I'm inclined to say we're at the shooting stage for obvious reasons. Well, yeah. You know, anytime that you consume a story about somebody, I think there is something

an implicit ask for you to identify with the people in it, you know, to sort of imagine, even if you don't realize you're imagining it, I think a lot of this happens kind of back of mind, but sort of what would you do? Would you ever do this? Would you ever do that? Why or why not? Would you find yourself in such a time and place? And that I think that, yeah, that often the minute people are asked to put themselves in the shoes of somebody who

has, you know, ended up going past the point of no return, even if it's through no fault of their own. I think there's a feeling of anxiety of

Maybe the fear of realizing that luck is the only thing standing between us and oblivion a lot of the time, you know, and that's a scary thing to accept. But it does make us appreciate what we have more, I think. We do everything we can to tell ourselves that our lives aren't based on luck. But Billy Zane in Titanic says a real man makes his own luck. So, you know. What happens to him again?

Well, you know, I mean, he survives the Titanic, but then we learn that the stock market crash left him penniless and destroyed his life. So, you know, hmm, thought-provoking. I feel like this story, it still puts us in meaningfully uncomfortable places, and maybe it allows us to get that far into our own discomfort by reassuring us that we are identifying with somebody who made it. And maybe that allows us to

to identify with somebody who ends up in a position that we like to believe that we, like maybe we can only believe that we could possibly end up in such a horrible position if we can also believe that we might be able to get ourselves out of it. That's so good. Sarah, you're so good at this.

And that is our episode. Thank you to Blair Braverman for being our guest. And if you liked this episode, please be sure to check out our other episodes with her. We've talked about survival in the Andes. We've talked about the Dyatlov Pass incident. And you can also check out some of her amazing work, including her novel, Small Game. Thank you, as always, to Carolyn Kendrick for editing and producing this episode.

Carolyn has a new album out called Each Machine, and we hope you listen and enjoy. And if you want to hear a little sneak peek of it, listen to our last episode. And that's it for us. See you in two weeks.