#124. Pete Rogers: The Wounds We Carry
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. All right, we got a wonderful show for you guys today. We had an amazing conversation. Yeah, I really enjoyed this one, too. We talked about the two North Stars that make us loving and whole human beings, how to make the parent-child relationship flourish, and our favorite topic, emotional intelligence.

by using mental time travel to reframe tense moments where emotions sabotage us. Our guest is the Director of Counseling at Community Center Shanghai, as well as the founder of Rogers Consulting Group, where they provide schools, companies, families, and individuals with coaching on emotional intelligence, parenting, leadership, and charisma development.

He works with international schools, students, and their parents to create emotionally vibrant and happy families. He also works with corporate partners to help their teams thrive through post-traumatic growth, charismatic communication, and moving through conflict. This conversation was powered by Nespresso. So, without further ado, please give it up for Pete Rogers. And I love it neat.

That's how we do it. That's how we do it. This is how we do it. Why is it called neat? Cheers. Cheers. Welcome to the show, Pete. Good to be here. That is lovely. Thank you. Feel free to finish this bottle. There's only a little bit left. That's all for you. Wow. Hey, Pete. Thanks for being here. Good to be here. Welcome.

Um, yeah, I love, um, to kind of try to dive into what you do a little bit and go from there. You know, mental health, I think is something, um, I don't know. I kind of say it's a little bit our bread and butter. It's something we've started this show talking about. Do you want to explain a little bit what you do first and start from there in terms of, because I think it goes beyond just mental health, right? Yeah. Well, I need to go back a little bit and just say thank you again. Um,

I'm a recent listener to the podcast. I'd say I got turned on about two months ago, three months ago, and I've been diving through these great conversations you've had. So first of all, just thank you for the contributions you make into this space.

Thank you. Wow. Just get a big head. I got to loosen my headphones a little bit. Yeah. We've been working up to this moment for a long time. Those headphones are too small for you now. Yeah, I know. I was like, God. Well, the question is a good one. I've had a couple different careers, I would say. Someone who's a bit older than probably many of your guests.

I started out in higher education, actually, in the United States. I was working at two different universities. I worked 11 years at Loyola University in Maryland, which is Baltimore, the great city of Baltimore. And then I moved to Regis University in Denver, which is a great city. If you haven't been to Denver, amazing city.

Very beautiful, very clean. And I did a lot of administrative work there. Did a lot of leadership training and things like that. So that was kind of my bread and butter. And the long story short is that after 15 years of that, I looked around and said, well, is this the hill I want to die on kind of the rest of my life?

And despite having amazing colleagues, talented colleagues, and loving my work to some degree, kind of the repetitive nature of it, you know, kind of every year the same kind of things, same challenges. I was like, is there something more? Then I got a great opportunity to come to China, took it.

And having looked back since, in the nearly 10 years I've been in China, have been just absolutely incredible. I worked for an international company doing training soft skills. I've worked for international schools. I've traveled all over China in my role of consulting, doing conflict resolution work and management training in Beijing and Fuzhou and Shenzhen and Guangzhou. And I've loved all that.

And most recently, I was working for international schools doing leadership training and counseling. I was a social-emotional counselor. For the students there? Yeah, for the students. But this is where the pivot comes. During the number of years I was there, and I was basically at an international school all during COVID years, so I had no experience of this school, anything but COVID, which is just kind of bizarre in some ways. But working with young people was definitely life-affirming and very...

very meaningful. The courage of many of these young people to advocate on behalf of themselves for what they wanted and desired and the kind of steps they were taking, often, not always, to ensure their own self-care was really impressive. But it was hard. And the pivot came for me after working with a number of these really talented young people, recognizing that when I worked with their parents, which was often,

conversations with parents and meetings with parents and restorative conversations with parents and kids, that those were more meaningful to me. And in my discernment of, I try to do discernment every day. I try to do a practice called an examination of conscience every day, where at the end of the day, I just kind of look at my gratitudes and where did I feel like was contributing and where did I feel like I was a little bit off and how do I change that? I found that most of my gratitudes were in parenting work.

And having these really restorative and amazing conversations with parents who wanted to know their young people and yet found themselves quite distant from them often. And so I left the international schools formally, formed a company last year, and now serve international schools with parenting programs. That's one thing I do. And it's incredible, meaningful work. And I love it.

The other thing I do that's meaningful and that I love quite a lot is I'm director of counseling for Community Center Shanghai. So I supervise 30 counselors.

Not clinical supervision, but just kind of supervise the office. The Community Center of Shanghai. Community Center of Shanghai, CCS. So what is the role, what is the kind of mission for that? Community Center of Shanghai is the mission is to engage, to invite, engage, and form community wherever it happens in Shanghai. It used to be, it's 25 years old, because nothing was going on in Shanghai 25 years ago the way it is now.

And it was a way for families to get involved, understand what was going on in Shanghai, get Chinese lessons and yoga classes and cooking classes and all these kind of resources that happened in, they needed in Shanghai. Is it kind of like, like equivalent to like a YMCA? Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. I never was a part of a YMCA back home. Neither was I, but it kind of sounds like that would be something like that. Okay. And so the constituent development of that, at least these days, is the counseling department.

which I'm proud to be the director of. And we have 30 counselors who speak over 10 languages who serve clients both in Shanghai and around the world with high-quality mental health care. And this is the kicker that's affordable. So we're much more affordable than many providers in the area. Half price. High quality, but just so much lower price because we're a nonprofit.

So we have to keep the lights on and we want to make a little bit so we can grow when we need to, but the money's not the issue. It's the care that's the issue. And so that's really profound. So those are the two major things that I'm doing now. Parenting workshops, um,

and director of counseling for this really major community center. Yeah, I think that's huge in terms of the accessibility part of it. You know, the gate or the... Low bar. Yeah, the low bar of entry in terms of from a price perspective. Exactly. I think that's probably... I mean, mental health is a tricky subject to talk about anyway, kind of no matter where you're from, but I think especially in China, right?

And then you add on kind of the price aspect to it for a lot of the care You know if you go a lot of these, you know nicer hospitals here. It's it's outrageous it cost and so yeah I think that's a huge part of it and the cult kind of parenting workshop that you do you mentioned that you found it more Fulfilling to talk to the parents than the kids why why was that? I just found that healing was more possible for the family and

Working with a young person who's motivated and inspired to want to grow through an anxiety issue or panic attack or through outsized expectations that might be coming down from parents or grandparents or something like that is a wonderful thing to do, and I feel honored to do that work. But I found that the changes that happen with a young person often don't stick because they go back to an environment that doesn't support those values. Mm-hmm.

and doesn't support that growth in the same way. And so having parents on board, and not only on board, not just assenting to the care or assenting to what the young person is going through, but really actively participating in the healing of the family, in the forwarding of the family together, I found to be by far the most meaningful work I did. And the things that were most advantageous for both the parents and the student. So when the students are going back to healthy environments,

Again, this isn't 100% correlation, but it does make sense that when people go back to places where they're accepted, where they feel like they can meaningfully talk about things that are challenging, when they can bring up the fact that they're anxious or afraid, or perhaps not, that becomes transformative or the opportunity for transformation. And that was really powerful.

Yeah, I think this is a terrible analogy, forgive this, but like I kind of, I was thinking of the analogy of like language learning. And it's like you can take like, you can go and take a class to learn a new language, right, for like an hour or two hours, however long the class is.

But if you come back outside of a class and you just re-immerse yourself in your own native language, it kind of, like all that stuff you learned in that class just washes away. It doesn't stick. And the best way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in that environment, right? It's the environmental impact of absorbing that knowledge.

I think is kind of what you're saying is like if you can have counseling, you know, however long the sessions are, but if they go back into an environment and with their family, that's not conducive to kind of what you're trying to accomplish in these counseling sessions, then it kind of washes away. It doesn't stick either. And I don't know if this is correct math. I think it is. I think there are 168 hours in a week.

I think that's right. Okay. Thanks, Eric. We'll deal with that. We'll go with that. So I see a young person for one hour a week, perhaps. What are they doing with the other 167 hours of their time? And sometimes parents can have outsized expectations about what even happens in therapy and counseling.

Fix my child becomes be the parent to my child. And we have to very gently and compassionately say, parenting is your role. I'm here as a guide, a helper, as a counselor, as a therapist, as someone who's professionally trained in a certain way to help strategies for anxiety or depression or sadness, and all that's fair. You have to kind of pick up the mantle here as the parents. And again, when the parents get it, things change dramatically, most often. And that's powerful.

What are the issues that you see most often? I mean, we've talked to therapists in the past on this show, and repeatedly what comes up that they say that they have to treat most often is anxiety. Obviously, anxiety is very wide-ranging and really an umbrella for a lot of other things. But what, in your experience, are you seeing? What are the main concerns for you in terms of mental health? I want to double down on what your previous guests have said. I would say stress, anxiety, depression.

And without question, I think anxiety is the biggest receptacle of people's pain. People are anxious about many things. Young people are anxious about many things. And I think some of the things that we could talk about very easily would be things like academic expectations and the kind of, where does an educated person fit in the world today in China?

What is the role of the educated person? How much expectation is given by the family to carry the family forward, financially, for example? These are all questions that, I mean, your last podcast guest, Zach,

Now, he detailed very beautifully. Go back to that podcast, everybody, Young China. I can't remember what episode it was, but it was amazing talking about young people. I found it very illuminating. But this is what young people are anxious about. They're anxious about not the work so much as the expectations about perfection and what perfection means in a world where things are inherently not perfect. They understand that. Many of them are exposed to Western values, especially the ones at international schools. They understand the role of mindfulness, for example. They understand language.

diversity, equity, and inclusion, all these things. And again, they go home and parents might parent it. And again, I hope I'm not being unfair to the parents. The parents that I've met have been absolutely wonderful in wanting to engage with me or other mental health professionals in helping their children heal, helping their child's mental health grow. They just don't know how to do it. They grew up in worlds where they were completely unprepared

for the kind of realities that young people are facing now, especially with social media and all kinds of other things. So they grew up in a world that's tough emotionally. And the danger is not physical. Shanghai is one of the safest cities in the world. The danger is online. Online? Oh, yeah. Where's my reputation? Who's in? Who's out? Where do I fit in my friendship group? Middle school girls, for example,

In the last number of years, I can't tell you how many times I had a crying middle school girl walk into my office and say that she's been dumped by her friends or that she's out with her friends or that her friends excluded her at lunch. And with the boys, it's a bit different. But...

Yeah, it's powerful because exclusion matters socially. And is this experience mostly at the international schools? Well, that's the only experience I have. In speaking with students who go to the local schools that have international divisions, like Shanghai High School's international division, Songqingling High School,

out near Hong Chao, those types of schools, because I've done student leadership work with a number of the international schools as well, or the local schools with international divisions, same things basically happening. They don't talk about it as much. They don't have as many resources. And again, it's not because, well, I don't know why there wouldn't be more resources, but I think the international schools are very well resourced when it comes to well-being resources, counseling resources, and I don't see the same level at the

At the local schools that I do for the international schools. But I, again, I plead ignorance. I don't know what's going on there, but nobody's, nobody said is anything different. I'm curious about the cross section and maybe some of the characteristics of the groups that you deal with. Cause we, we first talked about this, this,

in an international school environment? Like what demographic? 'Cause international schools typically like really wealthy, et cetera, et cetera. I'm curious, like what cross section of folks like you deal with? - Well, we had a big shift because of COVID. When COVID first hit 2020, many people left. They didn't come back.

And so you had the persons who stayed here, the international students, I would say truly international students, the students who came from another country here. Like kids of expats. Exactly. They were scrambling to form new friendship groups because many of their friends, again, they weren't expecting to stay home. They left because they wanted to escape COVID. And then they're there for a couple months and they never come back. So you have a large, large group of people who are just gone.

Now think about when you were back in high school, your best friends with people. Again, maybe it's a smaller community, so you get to have these really close friendships, and then half of your friends are gone. One young woman I worked with lost every significant friend she had. Now again, nothing bad happened to any of them. They were all happy where they were, in England and Italy, and one was in Malaysia. But she's there alone, and she's got to form all new friendship groups.

And some of these groups are already entrenched. So that was a difficult thing for many, many people. And the anxiety around that was really hard. And then, of course, through the years, as the different restrictions happened, more people left, fewer people came. And so right now, as of last year, I ended my tenure last year, it was almost exclusively persons who were Chinese.

And they were dealing with more academic issues and the anxieties around academic issues, family pressures, and body image, I would say, the three big ones. So the first group that you were dealing with initially were a lot of expats, and it was a unique environment where...

because of this schism essentially of how China was managing COVID. So a lot of families went back home and all of a sudden it's like being part of a military family or something, right? And you move schools, um, except for that. In that case, it would be kind of isolated. That'd be one person leaving. Whereas this would be like, okay, half the school is gone. Yes. And depending if you were lucky or not, maybe like your entire group left. And, and it's such an early age, um,

- Critical formative use. - Yeah, exactly. 'Cause like, Justin and I and how we've been here in China for a while and we've seen people come and go, but it wasn't like a single event. It was like over the years, trickle effect.

And of course we were a lot older. So, you know, we have our own mental health issues. Some older than others. Yeah. The mental health issues are you guys. Well, that's all kind of weird. That's how the whole show got started just to handle Justin's mental issues. And then we realized we also had mental issues. I love it. So that's interesting. So then there was that group and that was a pretty sizable group. And I imagine that,

just being children of expats, there's a whole nother dynamic there. I guess as those gaps started getting filled by more local families, um,

Because I guess these schools are really hard to get into to begin with, right? There was enough demand to kind of fill that. Without question. Some of the schools have waiting lists in toddlers, two-year-olds. Get Riley ready. Yeah, that's five years. Well, so yeah, the schooling, you know, my kid is six months old now. Okay. And so like, you know, this whole idea of like schooling here and...

what the best plan and strategy is. It's like so above what, like my base of knowledge right now. Like I'm just like, I haven't done enough research and it is giving me a little anxiety because it seems like really complicated here. And like, it seems like the competition to get into the good schools here, even for little kids is like the kindergarten. So it's like outrageous, right? Yes. I'm freaking out about like, okay, what if I screw up and don't make the right decision? And you know, like,

But I don't know, at the same time, I think I'm kind of overthinking a little bit too, right? I think, you know, I mean, there's kids that go to any kind of schools and they turn out just fine, right? Without question. Einstein did not go to an international school in Shanghai. Yeah. Nor did Newton or Marie Curie. But I'm also like something you brought up also kind of triggered something in me is that the idea of...

having like uprooting your life and having to make new friends especially during a kid's formative years it's tough um what do you think it's it's tough but what do you think are do you think there's a like a big risk in terms of lasting impact on that because i think there's a side of thought you know well you know this is also a chance for kids to like

learn new skills in terms of how to socialize, making new friends. I have some experience of myself like having to uproot life and move somewhere else and start all over again as a young kid. I don't know, I feel like maybe there are things to take, positives to take away from that experience for a kid as well, even though it is tough. Or do you feel the damage outweighs any positives that they can take away from that experience? - That's a good question.

I'm going to speak out of both sides of my mouth now, if that's okay. I'll say two things. One, I think that endings matter. And, you know, for example, I remember last year there was a family. So it was a boy and a girl, both in the senior school. Really dynamic, nice kids who were both in the school play. They were brother and sister.

Dad gets word that his job has been transferred to wherever, Doha, wherever. And it's not, oh, we have till the end of the academic year, which they wanted. It was like, you have until Monday to get out. This is on a Friday. So thank God the show was that weekend because the kids were both integral to the show. And they had the show. Yay, celebration. They're on a plane on Monday morning.

Now that, then that, that happily was a very rare occurrence that happened to one other family as well. And they got like a two week stay, you know, where they emergency stays. So they, before they went back to Australia, this family went back to the UK. That sounds like a foreign agent. It's like, we're going to, it's like they deport you. So I think that was particularly difficult. I don't think we talk enough about grief when we talk about young people. I think that grief is often talked about only when people physically die.

And I think that one of the things that I tried to do as much as possible was bring the kind of framework of grief into all the little grievings that we have along the way that are important and significant, but we don't give ourselves enough credit for going through. Like, like what? Like a young person losing their best, three of their best friends. That's grieving. Now we can say, oh, you know, go get some new friends. You're a nice person. Go, you're a go getter. You little scamp, you know, or whatever you want to say. Um,

And I don't think we honor very often that grief and maybe even the anger associated with that grief. And because it's, and we would call it in psychology a complicated grief because it's nobody's fault. And young people understand this. They know it's not, nobody did this, but it's still grief. And I think that utilizing that framework where we can speak honestly about anger and

and about moving forward with loneliness, and how do you develop resilience and grit? These are really key skills that they can learn, but I think that that happens after the grieving. And I think that we want to jump to the skills building, and we want to jump to the

to the healing, let's heal. Let's, you know, when you're ready to go, just get some new friends. And I think that for young people in particular, allowing them to grieve is a critical and vital step that often gets missed. If that makes sense. How would you support someone to allow them to grieve? Like, how do you give them space to do that? Like, what would you do? You name it. When the student who was, who had all her friends leave, really nice kid. She came in and she,

We're sitting there and we're just kind of going back and forth for a while, just chatting. I simply said, is there something on your mind in particular you want to talk about? And she goes, yeah, I was just thinking about, and she named one of her friends. We had a Zoom call, blah, blah, blah. How was that for you? Oh, it was really, really good. And she talked about all the things that they talked about and catching up with that. And I could see that her...

It wasn't fake, but do you get the idea? There was a grief in there as well. And so when she finished kind of telling the story, I simply said to her, are you sad right now? Just waterworks. She starts bawling her eyes out. And I just let her cry for a

10 minutes, you know, just at that point, you just don't intervene. You allow the person to begin that process of starting to unloosen. So is it just like kind of acknowledging? Acknowledging is huge. Maybe I need to be shorter with my answers. Yeah, so you have to acknowledge it or at least give them the possibility. They can certainly say no.

When I said, are you sad? She could have said, no, I'm okay. You know, I'm a little bit sad, but she, but I don't think anybody really asked her the question. I think everybody just, because people feel uncomfortable with grief and they feel uncomfortable with negative emotions. It's like, let's move through that as quickly as possible. And grief has stages. Grief has a life. And until we start to really own that, I think that healing is less likely and it's going to take longer. This is very, this is fascinating, Pete. Yeah.

How common is grief in children or just young adults? And is there a difference in definition for grief in the sense that I'm guessing that as you get older, you develop more resilience and you're less perhaps sensitive to things. Whereas if you're a four-year-old and someone takes away your toys, then that

impacts you in a very meaningful way. So I guess... I have a four-year-old. Yeah. And I have a four-year-old niece and they...

they can go from highs to lows really, really quickly. So I am curious, one is how common is grief as you've kind of defined it? And then how do we define grief for children? And is there a different way of handling these things? Because it seems like it's easier for them to get into that mini, little grieving state. Yeah, that's a complex question, but it's an excellent one. This is the way that I would...

Sure. For persons who are older, I think one of the reasons why grief is more manageable is because whether or not we've recognized it or not, we have gone through lots of different grievings. You come from the United States to live in Shanghai, you've left people. Doesn't mean you're not happy to be in Shanghai, but you've left people. When

When one of your guests in the podcast talked about their wife being sick and going through a number of major operations, that's a grief. Not just for the lost time, but for maybe the imagination that our bodies are healthy and we'll live forever. I think grief is everywhere. Yeah, or like relationships that didn't work out. Of course. And for young people, for children, we don't label it grief because they don't have the understanding of kind of death in the way that we do.

Even the death of a relationship, per se. But I think that we can certainly validate their feelings in the moment of sadness. And I think that's critically important as well. And it doesn't mean that you give them over to the sadness. But if a kid bumps their leg or they're riding their bike and they run into a tree and they scrape themselves up, it's not, you know, again, most of the time, well-meaning parents are just like, oh, you'll be fine, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. And I'm just wondering what it's like if we say to a kid, it won't always hurt this bad.

You see the difference? So instead of saying, oh, you know, get over it. It's like, it won't always hurt this bad. You're validating the hurt. It hurts right now. It won't always hurt this bad. And you can say that to people who are going through grief as well. There's also like a subtext in there that is also...

kind of um it's forward thinking it's hopeful yeah but it's also signal yeah it's forward thinking and in that forward thinking it's also signaling like this this this kind of stuff is going to happen again yes it won't always hurt this bad yeah yeah yeah i think that's a powerful phrase to just put in your back pocket yeah well uh okay did you just write it down well

He's writing everything down. Kind of on a lighter note, that's not the only type of response. Some parents are just like, suck it up. Yes. So there's a lot of different responses. I'm thinking about...

A discipline in psychology that one of our guests shared a little bit about, and it was called transactional analysis. Are you familiar with that? I'm familiar with it. I don't have any expertise in it.

And, and when, yeah, yeah. When Tillman came on, it's sort of like, okay, you've got these different states or ego states, like, you know, child, parent, adult. We talked about that in my parenting course, but that's, that's all I know. Child, parent, and adult. Like without getting like overly technical, there is more skillful ways of addressing these things and responding to these things when you're, um,

you know, like when, when you're a parent or when you're in, when you're someone in a position of some type of authority and care and you can positively impact the situation. And it reminds me of that a little bit is that you're not going in and then being this kind of overbearing parent and trying to protect the child from everything, because we know the outcome of that. A lot of Asian parents,

I mean, a lot of parents everywhere, but I think a lot of Asian parents can be very, very overprotective. I know that word was used very commonly when I was growing up to kind of characterize some of the parenting, right? Even my own parenting, like overprotective. And at the same time, you don't want to go to the other end of the extreme where it's like, okay, and not acknowledge it. Free range kids, yeah. Yeah, suck it up. And so it feels like if we were to look at this in terms of like the eco state and how to deal with it, it's like you're really addressing the need

You're providing a path to kind of acknowledging it, but then also sharing that it's not going to last forever. And it's a skillful way of handling it where the response from the child will be more balanced. Yeah. And I think when we talk about the ego states, I mean, when we talk about child, parent or adult ego states, our kids are in adult ego states when they're at school.

So it always fascinates me, again, when I would talk to parents and they would be so shocked at the behavior of their kid at school. Not in a bad way, but in a good way. At home, he's running around all the time, but he sits still in school. How does this happen? That's adult ego state. Even children can get into adult ego state where there's kind of real age-appropriate maturity transacting.

Adult ego states are healthy and good in children. Parent ego states where we're ordering, directing, correcting. Why are your shoes not near the door? Where's your backpack? Did you eat breakfast? Did you brush your teeth? All these little negs, these negative little things we throw out all the time that both affirm our...

Kind of authority, but not authority in a way that's shared. I think the best type of authority when we talk about parents and children is appropriately shared authority. You give the appropriate amount of authority for young people. A two-year-old has, they can choose some things. They can choose the red jacket or the yellow jacket or this pair of boots or that pair of boots.

you know, a four-year-old. Like their agency and to some extent, right? But it's not recognizing their agency and then it just becomes like you want to micromanage them because you want a certain outcome that's actually more convenient for you, not them. And this is where parents really need to, I think the healthy parenting, which is a phrase that didn't even come into existence until the 1980s really. And, and,

And sometimes that is appropriate and very healthy. And I can share an experience of that in my own family. But sometimes it's not. And let me give you two examples of both, if I may. What you don't know about me is that I have a twin brother. And we're the youngest of 11 children. 11 children? 11 children. So same parents.

So I saw, my twin brother and I saw my parents parent nine other people in our home all the time. So you can imagine just when you have that many people, the variability of experiences. Somebody's

Just won a great award at school and somebody didn't do well on a test. Someone broke up with someone, someone's dating someone. Every day there's just drama. And my parents were exceptional at keeping a steady ship and what they called a loving container and a loving hierarchy. It was a hierarchy, okay? But it was loving. But mom and dad were mom and dad. There was no mistaking that.

And the point I want to make about kind of the time off, when I was going through my psychological studies, I went back, I was charged with, in one of my classes, was going back and doing a deep dive interview with my parents about kind of the way we grew up. And just to get to your point. So...

I said to my mom, you know, I said, you know, mom, one of the things that frustrated me when I was a kid is you would send, my twin brother's name is Patrick. You would send Patrick and I to bed in the summer, like seven o'clock at night. So it's light out. It's not even close to being dark.

And our bedroom was a front of the house facing bedroom. So think of a suburban house and you see all the kids playing on the street. So we're in bed and said, why did you do that? Like, I don't understand that. And she just looked at me with all the clarity she could. And she goes, because I needed to know where you were so I could get other stuff done.

It's not all about you. And I was like, oh, wow. That was a bit of a—and so there are times when I think it's appropriate for parents to carve out space lovingly in a way that's boundaried and loving so they can get things done. When you've got 11 kids, you've got to get stuff done.

Can you imagine doing bath time at nine o'clock at night every summer night? But you get the, you get the point. So sometimes I think for parents to carve that space out is really healthy, but often in the way that you described it before, it's not. And it is just trying to get a desired outcome. Well, what was this hierarchy you were talking about with your own parents? It's like this loving hierarchy. Like what, what, what, what is that? That was just this idea that you, I think that in today's society,

marketplace of ideas, I think one of the bad ideas, and I'll say it clearly, I think it's a bad idea, is that parents want to be friends with their kids. Oh, I'm best friends with my daughter. Not my parents. Best friends, yeah. Why is that a bad idea? Justin, that's his whole philosophy. No. Shut up. He's like, my buddy, buddy. What's up, little buddy? Now, I'm not saying that you can't have a dynamic and really loving and fun relationship with kids.

You clearly can. And I would argue that you should. Friendship is about mutuality. And by definition, there's unequal power between parents and young people. And I think that's the difference. I think when parents try to become friends with their young ones, depending on how old they are, 8, 12, 14, the lines get blurred about, you know, this, where's my safety? And

I would err on the side of caution and being loving, deeply loving, caring, committed, listening, engaged, all those things, but not want to intrude, not to want to be a part of my son or daughter's friendship life. That has to be its own thing, developed in its own way. And I want to be the parent.

Okay. And that sometimes can be lonely because if our kids are, I mean, there's some kids that I know that are really amazing kids and to hang out with them, if you were their mom or dad would be really fun. But at some point you've got to, for the sake of the child. And you mentioned this earlier, Justin, that the young person has to move out into their own world at some point. And that has to happen with safety and with security. And can we be the strong base, that loving hierarchy where the rules, it was never unclear that my mom and dad were the mom and dad.

And they were incredibly loving, generous people. But I felt safe in that world. I felt really, really safe. And I think that when the research is very clear that parenting outcomes tend to be better, when there's more clearly defined boundaries, not in an aggressive way, not in the authoritative parent ego way, where I'm ordering, I'm directing, and I'm correcting, but that I'm truly listening to what's going on in my family, responding with adaptability and empathy, and

Well, that's what sounds like... But being the parent. See, that is exactly, to me, it sounds like the...

It sounds like a really like hard tight rope to walk. It is. Right. Because on one end, you don't want to fall into the quote unquote friend zone with your kid, but then like, you also don't want to be like overly parent ego state where you're like over like micromanaging. So it just seems like it's, it's a really fine line to walk there. I give you example from last night in my home. Um,

for some reason, well, my son had school yesterday because we had the holiday. So it was a Saturday, but he had school, which is not normal. So I think it's only China where they screw you. It's not real. They take like all your weekends for the next year and they're like, Hey, we're going to give you a month off. It's like, no, you're not. The first time I encountered that. It's total bullshit. They make you give it back. Yeah. I was like, what the fuck? Um,

It's not really a holiday. And it's like, and when you get the days off, everyone fucking else has the days off. So like the whole city is like completely like busy. And so it's terrible. Yeah. Well, talk to somebody about that, Eric. I think you should, it calls in this way. Let's toast. Let's toast two days off. Yeah. Yeah. I'll make a couple of calls. So last night he was up till probably at least 1130 last night. Okay. Now at 11 o'clock, he wants to get out the paints.

Daddy, I want to paint. Okay. And that's when I have to be really clear and loving and say, we're just really sad. But, you know, this is quiet time. So we're post-shower, but we're in quiet time. We can, we offer alternatives. We can read books. We can play a game of cards. But those are the choices. But daddy, I want to paint. Oh, I know. Yeah.

I just keep saying like, I know. So acknowledging and aligning with them. You don't just say, you don't just right off the bat shut them down. No, I always say like, I know. And that's where the confusion comes in. Because a young person will look at you like, yeah, but daddy, I want to paint. I'm like, I know. But no. Yeah. I know, but no. I try to not even, I try to not just try to say that very often. I just try to say, I know. This is, I try to say what we're going to do and not what we're not going to do.

So I think that that's kind of, that's a language thing that I think is really powerful. If I keep saying what I don't want to have happen, that's only half the story. I don't want you to paint. Well, why? Well, what are you going to get? Am I going to get into an argument with a four-year-old? You know, the goal of parenting, at least in my mind, is, and I think that I learned this from my parents, is you can't, like, my parents never stopped us from arguing with them.

But they never argued with us. Does that make sense? They never got, they never bit the bait. You know? Wow. We go to them and we're like, da, da, da, da, da. And they're like, okay. I heard. Thank you. That was very articulate.

Well, what's going to happen? Oh, well, we'll talk about it and then we'll get back to you. But thanks for sharing. That's interesting too. When I think about that, it's like if they don't respond with that same level of emotion and not take the bait, they have so much more credibility. Like once they kind of lower themselves to that four-year-old level, they lose all credibility too because –

that hierarchy. So if you're like, if you're going to also act like a four-year-old, then it's like evenly matched. So then it's like kind of a coin flip in terms of who wins. Well, the kid has already won. I think I would say if the kid drags you into an argument, they've won, they've won, they've won. No question. And this is what I share in my workshops all the time. The kid will escalate because it's like, dad, can I have some cupcakes? Yeah.

No. Dad, can I have, you know, it's going to get more insistent. And what usually happens is the assistance gets louder and louder and louder. And what happens? Meltdown. Meltdown for them. And then what usually happens with the parent or what often happens? Punishment. Punishment. Or they give the, they're like, I don't care. Overreact. Or here's the cupcake. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just be quiet.

Turn on the TV. I'll do whatever you need to do. Just stop screaming. And so the thing that we have to do, again, when we try to create this loving container, this loving boundary, this loving hierarchy, is we have to recognize early that we're going to have some rough times. There's going to be some rough nights and there might even be some rough months. But again, what's the goal?

Is the goal... I mean, this is what I always am trying to keep in my head. I'm trying to reframe. And so when my kid was two and he would have a little bit of a tantrum, and he did pretty well in his twos. But so he's having a tantrum, he's going crazy, and he's just screaming his head off, and he's got a poopy diaper. Like all this stuff is going on at once. In my head, I can be there, frustrated, angry, and sad for him and for me for loss of sleep or whatever.

Or I can try to reframe. And now this is going to sound like a parlor trick, but I'm telling you, it worked for me. I try to put myself 20 years in the future. When he's screaming, actively use my imagination and go, 20 years from now, I'm going to walk into a bar where you're going to greet me and you're going to introduce me to your new work colleagues or your college graduate friends.

And I'm going to walk in and you're going to jump up from your chair and you're going to run over and grab me and give me a big hug and say, everybody, this is my dad. Dad, this is Justin, this is Eric. And when I do that, it's not about the moment anymore. I'm recognizing that this moment of terror or frustration or anger is a part of a journey. And that the goal is...

Yeah, I want my young person to not be screaming and frustrated and sad. But the ultimate goal is to have a thriving adult who can take care of themselves and is contributing to the world in their own way. That's the goal. And I think a lot of parents lose sight of that. And it's about some of the stuff we mentioned earlier. It's about what kindergarten are they getting into or what grade school or what international high school, what university. Those are all the check marks that are the meaningful ones. And I'm like, those aren't unimportant to me.

But what kind of relationship do you want to have your kid when you're 30? Do you want your kid to have gone to Harvard and then resent you the rest of their life because you pushed them so hard? Well, my kid went to Harvard. Does your kid call you every day? Is your kid chomping at the bit to come home to show off his new spouse or their children?

Are they flying you to Switzerland to meet them so you can hike in the Alps? I mean, this is the kind of stuff that really, I think that is the stuff that makes life worthwhile. And for many parents, they sacrifice 40 years of relationship.

to get some wins, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes, to get some wins in high school. And that just makes no sense to me. - So you're thinking at more, from a more of a perspective of I'm shaping a person, right? - Yes. - And it's not so much about, I mean, obviously you care what they accomplish and what they do. - Of course. - Everyone does. But you can argue even more importantly is how is this human being gonna be, right? How is he gonna be as a person?

And kind of shaping those characteristics, those traits, that psychology really around being a person. Well, that's, and it's powerful. It's not just like shaping what they want to be. It's really understanding what's important and what's the most important thing that a parent can have with their child. It's not like how much money the parent makes or like how...

the child is or what school the child gets into. All those things matter because obviously parents want their child to be successful. But ultimately, what's the most important thing? It's the relationship. It's like, you know, how much do they care about you and how much you care about them? And then reframing that. This is interesting. I was reading a book called Chatter and it's kind of about your internal monologue by, I think it's Ethan Cross from Michigan who,

And one of the techniques that he uses to get rid of mental chatter and this negative monologue is what he calls mental time travel. And it's interesting that the technique that you use is very similar. And it's a similar technique, but applied to different situation. Because when you have this internal monologue, it's really hard to get rid of. And at the same time, and you're emotional. Yeah.

it's very similar, right? You're going through a lot of emotional turmoil. Then you do the mental time travel to put things in perspective and then to understand like all of these little decisions that you make up over a long period of time are gonna result in something. Like, what is it all for? Yeah, 20, 30, 40 years later. And I, you know, we like, we often reflect on our own experiences because we've been through all this. We've kind of gone through all kinds of ups and downs. I love my parents so dearly.

Um, but you know, there wasn't necessarily like a, you know, loving container, loving hierarchy, right? It was like a loving freaking dictatorship, like, you know, prison camp sometimes. And, um, that's a common phrase I heard among, among international school students is like, I know my parents love me, but yeah.

And it took a long time to repair that. And there was a lot of wasted time. And now many, many, many years later, we have a great relationship, but there are many years of just damaged relationships and a lot of blame on both sides. There's so much pressure. There's so much pressure. And I'm just thinking like that one question of like, well, what kind of relationship do you really want to have with your children in 30, 40 years? Like that's, it's such a simple, but powerful question. Um,

that can shortcut a lot of things so that you don't have to wait like, you know, a long, long time to repair all these things. You can work on it in the moment. And the parent has to take responsibility for that because the child doesn't know enough to, they can't be the parent, obviously. Yeah. And this is what I'm talking about being a loving container. I think honesty among parents is really, can be really healing as well for, you know, again, doing some of the work that I did and,

To have, for instance, a mom of a daughter struggling with her body issues say to her in front of me and the head of the school and her daughter, I've failed you. I'm going to do better. I need to learn. I need to grow through tears and real frustrations. And this is heartfelt stuff. And to see that, and again, it wasn't like kumbaya. People didn't walk out holding hands. But

Those types of insights and that type of commitment is huge. This young girl, she was in year eight, so a seventh grader to us in the United States. But her mom is now understanding that this really hurts and it's not okay. And her ability to want to change is pretty impressive because many don't. Well, it takes incredible vulnerability too because over time I've realized how much my own parents sacrificed for

I mean, just incredible amounts, like more than I will ever know more than I would ever, you know, I don't have kids yet, but if I did have kids, I don't think I could ever sacrifice as much. Like they sacrifice, you know, more than anyone. Um,

But the downside of that effect was because they sacrificed so much is that they're not, they weren't really when I was growing up willing to admit that they were ever wrong. So they were a hundred percent right because they had sacrificed so much. They were already struggling as immigrants. And so it was like, they're really thin skin in that sense. Like they couldn't take any criticism of their parenting style. And we had to go through many years of just sort of like our own therapy. I mean, we didn't have real therapy, but,

But just a lot of like difficult times for me to finally realize like how much sacrifice they went through. Because as a child, you just don't, you can't understand these things, right? Everything you get, you just feel like you deserve it. You're entitled to it. And at the same time, had they been more vulnerable and open-minded and been able to just recognize that, okay, like they're not perfect, right?

Cause their mindset was always like, we're doing the fucking best we can. And so any, any type of sort of admission that they weren't would just, they would crumble because they were under so much fucking stress and pressure, like every single thing they do, including now, like, I mean, now they're, you know, much older and,

And like their life still revolves around my brother and I, even though we're like full fledged adults and you know, and we're on our, we're independent. Like my mom still is like financially sort of like everything she does is to ensure that we won't starve, you know? And so like, I mean, where does that fucking pressure come from? I guess it's that generation. Every generation has a different set of generational trauma, right?

And that generation had some... And my parents too. My parents grew up during the Depression. So they never trusted banks, really. I mean, we had money in the bank, but it wasn't like the stock market for the people of that generation to... Yeah, but forget about it. Why would I do that? That's going to crash. And my father was... Well, this is a technique that I think also is important when we talk about perspective. It's called contrast bias.

And, again, whenever I'm feeling really low or like I'm overwhelmed, and again, this only works sometimes, so don't take it as a minimization of our own frustrations and the reality of our pain. But when I'm having a really rough day, I think of my father who fought in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. And was it war? War.

Holy shit. So, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. Over a span of like 30 years? Yeah, 27 years. Jesus. Wow. He retired in 67. He entered right before the war and retired in 67. So, yeah. And he saw action in both World War II and Korea. He was personnel in Vietnam, which is a whole other sort of trauma because you're literally moving people around.

You know, your unit gets wiped out and you've got to replenish the unit. So you're literally moving people around to be where they need to be. So that's another type of trauma. And then my mom was home alone with 11 kids when my dad was in Vietnam. And she was alone. And when I'm having rough days, and I'm going to get emotional just thinking about this right now, when I have really rough days, I think to myself, I will never, ever, ever,

have a day as hard as almost every day my mother had for a year and a half when my dad was a Vietnam. And that gives me, and so my mother and father both passed, but that they never panicked. They were always there. They always showed up. They never complained. And they just were loving and charitable. And I'm like, I can get through this. I can get through this. And so as opposed to looking at, I think some people wear their trauma like it's a badge of

not honor, but it's like, you owe me something. It's a shield though. It's a shield. They use it to be protective too of themselves because they've been hurt so badly that they use this to kind of convince themselves. It's a defense mechanism. It's a defense mechanism. To wall themselves off. It reminds me of, you know, this is something my, you know,

There comes to a point in most of our episodes where somewhere along the conversation, something really starts resonating with me personally. And we're at that point now here. And Eric and both of you guys have already been talking about this, but I think the quality of the relationship between parent and child is...

is something that seems like so obvious, but I feel like it really gets taken for granted most of the time because you feel like I'm your parent. They're my child. Like, of course we love you. Like, of course, like, you know, of course it's going to like, we, we love each other and, and that's going to heal all and everything's going to be okay. Like we just take it for granted, but like I'm 40 years old now and I look back on my life and a father. Yeah. And a father. And, and you know, I,

My relationship, I think, with my parents is somewhat complicated, as for many people it is. But now when we spend time together, after all is said and done,

And after everything that we've been through together, the only thing that really matters is the quality of our time together. They don't care like where I got my diploma from. They don't care really where all these other things that seem so important at the time when we're growing up right now in retrospect, when we're actually here now, it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm.

It doesn't matter. And the only thing that, nothing could matter more than our relationship together and the quality of that relationship and the time that we have left. And it's taken me till I'm 40 to really appreciate that. Because as I was growing up from a child's perspective, we take that for granted too. I think it led to a lot of

wasted opportunities or overlooked opportunities to strengthen our relationship where now we're trying to like make that backtrack. Yeah, we're trying to make that back up now, you know, when we're all old and my parents are old now, you know, I'm 40 years old and we're trying to like make all that up again when, you know, it could have really been built like step by step year by year, like starting from a long time ago.

Yeah, this is the regret of the old. Many of them. And it's a deep sadness. And again, one of the things that is a good reframe when I'm with young parents is to have them reflect on their dying days, hopefully 40 years in the future or something like that and say, who do you want around your bed? Who's going to be holding your hand?

What do they look like? What are they going to be like? What kind of, you know, and it, I mean, it's pretty stark and it seems like it's a macabre thought. I don't, I don't think so. This is real. This idea is, we've talked about this in a different way in the show. And it's funny how,

just these really foundational kind of universal principles can be shared across different domains. And we've talked about this in the context of this eulogy virtues versus resume virtues that David Brooks wrote a really good article. I love David Brooks. He's a great author. Yeah, yeah. The Road to Character is a great book. Yeah, I haven't read the book. I definitely should. But I think it's like in our...

In our best moments, we realize these things, but then we get caught up. And we get caught up in our day-to-day. And I think that's what sometimes life is all about as well. It's like being able to step back, reframe in the moment and redefine what the goals are. Because we're operating off of the wrong goals sometimes because in that moment, whatever internal wiring and operating system that we have predisposes us to

act on goals that don't really exist anymore, survival goals that don't really exist anymore. And so different parts of our brain, the software in it kind of, you know, forces us to kind of go in a certain direction. We need to kind of step back and say, hey, look, the human, you know, this being a human being is different now than it was 10,000 years ago, like when we were just animals. Yeah, well, the conditions are different. Yeah. And this is the heart of emotional intelligence. To what degree do I have...

I'm using control with air quotes. To what degree can I manifest good things in my life through empathy or through strong relationships, through loving, caring relationships? Excuse me. And to what degree am I kind of being buffeted by things? Relationships that aren't fulfilling, job performance that's not where it needs to be. Just things just shitty in my life. Why do we do that? Like, I'm curious, like, if you have a perspective on this,

Like, so clearly conditions have changed because we were much more closer to animals 10,000 years ago and things have changed and, and,

now we've kind of created a, like a, like a, a totally different world. I mean, we're sitting in a podcast studio, we have like tables and chairs, like we're civilized, but even the notion of being civilized didn't exist. We created this notion. And then our, I think it's like, there's this battle that's going on, um, between kind of how we were and then how we've sort of evolved. Like, where does this come from? Where does this,

idea of even like we'll be more fulfilled through relationships and these types of things like how did we turn out that way well you know go with me back in history uh to i think roughly yeah we can talk about the history of civilization being about 10 000 years old but the history of two two-legged humanoid

you know, wherever they existed, it was probably about, let's say roughly, the scientists say between 200,000 and 300,000 years. Like sapiens and that kind of stuff. So let's say 250,000. So let's take 1,000, let's say every century is 250 years, or every page of a book is 250 years. So you have a 1,000-page book, right? That's pretty thick, right? Yeah. Let's go through the book.

The first 998 pages are fire. Surviving the elements. That's right. A better spear tip on page 823. So there's not a lot happening. It's slow. It's slow. And then, let's say 1800. 1800.

Just for the sake of it. 1,700. Or 250 years ago. So, yeah. So, you get 1,800. You know, and, you know, lights, indoor plumbing, medicine, penicillin. Yeah. Global economies. Truly global economies. The abolishment of the slave trade. Like, all this amazing stuff has happened. But,

And our brains have not had time to catch up. So I think that the kind of sensory overload that we have keeps us from focusing. Focus is so incredibly important. And we have two types of ways that focus goes away. Sensory saboteurs, phones beeping. And you were asked to turn off our phones. We should. We're in a podcast. I'm really loving this, by the way. We're just really in the moment. But there's no beeping, no buzzing, no anything. Right.

That's a sensory saboteur. There's also emotional saboteurs. So I'm trying to focus, trying to pay attention to the people in my world, and I'm thinking about what happened at work yesterday, and I'm thinking about what I'm going to do tomorrow, and I'm thinking about how sad I am about this. So we have to really understand that this is the world we now live in, and the sensory saboteurs, I think, are fairly easy to take care of if we want to. We have to be disciplined, but we have to be consistent. But the emotional saboteurs are things that are keeping these people

relationships from flourishing at any age, not being distracted by small things, understanding the goal. I think that's the biggest thing my parents ever gifted us with. They understood the goal, a thriving adult. I want to maybe go a little bit here. So what distinguishes or what differentiates

maybe different groups of parents from going after different goals, because I feel like that really drives a lot of everything that happens is these goals. It's the outcomes that you want. And what was it about your parents that made them have maybe a more holistic, balanced understanding? And the parents that you now work with,

What drives them to put so much pressure on their children for these kind of not really long-term kind of things that will help the relationship flourish? What's driving that? And what drove it for your parents? If I'm not answering your question, please invite me to consider rephrasing. This is my interpretation.

I think I'd be fascinated when I share this with my brothers and sisters. It would be funny to see what they write. I'll share it with you. Brothers and sisters, this is my interpretation of why our parents were the way they were. When you live through trauma, you can have multiple responses, but one response is gratitude. When you live through wars, when you live through depression, you know, my parents,

My grandfather lost his store. He had a thriving kind of grocery chain in Cleveland, Ohio. All went away during the Depression. You can respond with kind of downward spiral. Fear. Fear, anxiety. Or you can still have fears and anxieties, but you can also respond with gratitude. And like every day is a gift. And I felt like...

I think that my parents knew how to do routine. This is going to sound oxymoronic. They knew how to do routine in a way that allowed for us to laugh, to dance, be who we were. Doesn't mean there weren't problems. There were lots of problems. Again, 11 kids, lots of problems, including the ones that I created. But I think there was just a sense of joy.

And again, in the Chinese persons that I met of the older generation, I feel like the trauma has closed them off. It hasn't opened them up to a feeling like, look at what's happened in the world. If you were born in 1950, let's say the country was formed in October 1949. Let's say you're born in August of 1950. You're literally a child of the revolution. So you're now 73 years old, or 72, you'll be 73.

Look at what you've experienced. Look how proud you should be. But I hear the pride per se, but not the joy.

Does that make sense? - Yeah. - That's my overwhelming experience of the elderly in China. - It's like they're still reliving the hardships, like over and over and over. It's like you were so traumatized that you, and now life is much better, but you can't, like you're still afraid of something, you still can't let go. - But that's like classic human psychology, right? Like negative events always have a disproportionate impact on you over positive events. - I feel like I do that all the time. - I do that too. - We all do. - But I think maybe this is a product of America,

which is a uniquely optimistic country in some ways, probably overly so, and probably unrealistically. So it's like this can do. Yeah. At this 31, I took Justin's invitation to, to finish it off. Make sure that you're, that we've got you filled up. So, so yeah, it's like people respond in different ways. And I'm just grateful to my parents responded in the way that they did for us. They could have responded very differently. And there were times when, when things were bad and,

Then, for one reason or another, that again, it was the calmness and the non-panicking that I thought was probably the most important thing that helped us feel safe and like we were held. That whatever was going to happen, there were adults in the room.

Whatever that means. And then the thing that also I think happened was I saw my parents, as my older brothers and sisters got older, they got launched from our home. So again, a very different style than Eastern parenting or Chinese parenting in particular, where parents are generally much closer to their kids at an older age. My mom would always say, kind of when you're 18,

now it's on you like you gotta go and uh i love when you come back you're welcome to come back i want you to come back so but yeah but you're not but you're not living here you know it's it's completely different way of being you know what's funny like what's so funny about that is i could like almost verbatim quote that because i heard that so often you know being surrounded by

friends that had parents like that. And then my parents' interpretation of that, okay? 'Cause my parents also knew that philosophy, which was so common among just people in the US. My parents would be like, "Look how good we are to you. "We're paying for your college, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "Look at Johnny.

Right. Like, or look at my colleague at work. When you're 18, your ass is out on the street. They totally interpret it. Not as they reframe. Yeah. They reframed it to benefit them. Exactly. They totally reframed it. And they're like, look, your ass is on the street. I'm not going to take care of anything. So I was always like, wow, these like Caucasian people are very cold blooded. But then my parents would hold it over my head and be like, okay, because we're taking care of you, then you need to be, there's a,

expectations and then there was this

sense of guilt and shame. And that was like part of this way of being raised, which is that you were driven not by joy and by these things as much. You were driven more by shame and embarrassment and guilt. And for me personally, it's just went counter to how I am. And it was very traumatic over time. And so then over time you sort of figure, you figure out how to like diagnose yourself and then surround yourself with

I surround, I, what I realized at some point was that, um, someone had kind of recognized this as like, I've basically surrounded myself with all resilient, positive people. Like, I don't know really any negative people. That's awesome. This really reminds me what your parents did really reminds me of like what my family did and still does is the, um,

They always, it's always the thing, the kind of like nuclear bomb they drop in any sort of discussion or argument is, we're doing this because we love you. But that doesn't mean what they're doing is right, right? Just because they're doing it out of love, that doesn't mean it's correct. But they manipulate it like that. They're like, we're doing this because we love you. So you can't really say anything about it.

And, and, and within that, there's this, there's this, there's this element of like, we've sacrificed everything for you. So you'd be an ungrateful prick if you didn't listen to everything we said up until like you're 80 years old. It's like, what the fuck? I'm like, I'm like, no, like my, I mean, I love them. They don't totally think this way. They've changed as well. They've evolved. Yeah.

And they've learned as well. But there is this one part of him is like, man, fuck your ass. Like you listen to everything. Cause I raised you. I had you, you, I own you. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's this total thing. I own your ass. But then, you know, there's the other side where they truly love you and they have made all the, and so everything is true, but there's like really these two sides to it. Well, see, like this is another perspective that I can appreciate now, now being a father, um,

is that it's hard not to feel that way, especially having gone through all the things, like you said, your parents went through for you, right? Like it's hard not to feel this sense of, for lack of a better word, ownership over your children, right? Because it's not only the idea of look at all the things I sacrificed for you, but it's also like what you become ultimately also reflects back on me,

And kind of defines me as a parent, right? So it's like this idea of having to have control. My parents didn't take that. No? But I think that's so common, though. There's that piece, but also, like, I mean, it truly is for your own good. At least I know in my parents' case, they may...

They did everything for us because they loved us so much so that then if you don't do what they say, there's also this aspect. They truly believe what they're saying is right. Yeah, of course. So if you don't do what they say, you're harming yourself. And then they, then they like, they get a lot of anxiety over that. Like my mom's like, okay, you got to invest. You got to do this. You got to take care of health. Like she's like my doctor, my financial advisor. Well, I'm going to, I don't disagree with you, but I'm going to challenge it for a second. Yeah. Why? Why?

Why is I'll be your parents? Why is my self-identity as your parents so wrapped up in your achievement?

that's what i want to know and you're the expert on this so it's like it's almost like this is a therapy session it's like let me get my parents on too it's like all right we got pete we have a call we have a caller from texas yeah okay yeah it's half price hey i've already i've already been paid great conversation we got a couple more bottles um

This is not therapy, obviously, nor is it meant to be construed as such, but I think that one of the things that is happening is fear. Fear? Yeah, fear. I get very emotional talking about this. I cry a lot. When you were doing your podcast a couple weeks ago, I don't know when it was, the one on toxic masculinity and stuff like that, and you were talking about crying and stuff like that, I cry all the time. And I don't cry because I'm sad. I cry because I'm in awe.

Like I rarely get sad anymore, but when I cry just about every day. What? I do. Over like what would give you awe? Like talking about this, like what I would want to say to your mom and dad, and I mean this sincerely, is like, what's your biggest fear? Yeah. What's your biggest fear?

What are you afraid of, mom? What are you afraid of, dad? Well, I'm afraid of you. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's, no, no. We're going to stay with you. Let's stay with you. Love you. Okay. What are you afraid of? And I can't imagine what they might say. I can't imagine that. But I imagine it would be if they really went into themselves and did the work. They might come out with some pretty profound stuff. And again, it's not that they wouldn't care for you less.

They would care for you the same amount. They would love you the same amount, but it might be less attached. Once they could wrap around their own fear and start to own that as opposed to perhaps projecting it everywhere in the world where there's danger. Because they must be feeling this danger. If you don't invest, if you don't, if you don't, if you don't. Yeah. What are you afraid of? What's the fear?

Yeah, and these are the wounds that we carry. And we all have them. They play out in different ways. They manifest in different ways. And they look different in everybody, but we all carry them. And the question is, how do we acknowledge the wound? How do we validate the wound without giving it ownership over our decision-making all the time? And when do we have the opportunity to maybe not change wholesale, but at least understand that

Is the way that I'm acting now, is the way that I'm thinking now helping me or hurting me to grow a loving relationship with my child? Because, yeah, you might have a strategy. I'm going to help you with your investments and your doctor and you got to get that prostate exam soon, son. I set it all up for you. And that's all well and good. But again, is it helping or hurting?

Or helpful or not helpful. I don't like to say hurtful. And when older people can start to frame it in that way, again, frames are important. It's not good or bad. It's what's helpful or not helpful. Or what's helpful and less helpful. And I find that's a lot softer way to approach it. And just say, like, this is not helpful. Or it's not as helpful as I like it. Or it's not as helpful as I think it could be. And then the question is begged, well, what would be more helpful?

Well, maybe just you can write me a text message reminding me of my doctor's appointment. You don't have to call me five times or whatever. Then you start negotiating. Well, I want to ask you, Pete, like, is that the most important compass is, is this helping or hurting my relationship with my child? Because it sounds like for you, the way, the way you're articulating it is like, that's kind of like the North star. A parent,

wanting to have a good relationship with their child is really important as a compass point. But being full in themselves is also, I think, quite important as well. And I think that's part of the process that often gets overlooked. If we're paying attention to Eric, because Eric's here, he was just talking about his mom and dad. If Eric is the person who is the identified individual

symptom holder, if we're talking about family systems, you know, you're the identified symptom holder, meaning whatever it means, then we're all paying attention to you. We're not paying attention by definition to us, or we're paying a lot less attention to us. And I think that people are better at relationships generally when they're happy and integrated and whole. And if I'm trying to help you out of a sense of deficit, I can certainly be helpful to you. But again, what's the quality of the help internally? Not externally, but

And so I would say, how can we do both? Can we have two North Stars? I guess. Two compasses? Two needles? Yeah, two needles. Both pointing north, but one is about self-empathy and understanding my own wounds and understanding them enough to hopefully not let them get in the way of my relationships with my kids or anybody else. That's one compass. And the other compass is...

How do I create a loving container for this relationship in a way that leads to just all the things that we want? Warmth, care, love, mutuality, compassion in adult relationships, in healthy adult relationships.

And if we can hold those two things in our hands simultaneously and keep those as oriented principles, I think we're doing pretty well. Yeah. Well, I like what you said because it's, you know, we've been talking about it in the context of kind of parents and children, but really any relationship. Yes. This is applicable to everything, to all our interactions with other humans. Yeah. And this is the frustration I have with a lot of people when I do kind of emotional intelligence work. Most people come to me because they want to be better educated.

Or they've been kind of court-ordered, so to speak, by their boss or something to get better relationship management with sales clients or something like that. Or they have a conflict at work and they need help understanding the conflict and moving through it. And that's all well and good. And I'll work with those clients as well. But I think the people, the thing that I say to them is exactly what you said, Justin. It's like, the things you're going to learn here are going to help you with your success.

intimate partner. They're going to help you with your kids. They're going to help you with your parents. They're going to help you with the barista. Everything that's related to emotional intelligence communication is helpful if we can really use it and practice it. How do you develop empathy? How do you develop self-awareness for the first? And then empathy. What are the elements of emotional intelligence? Well, I'd say the big ones are self-awareness is huge. You've got to begin with knowing yourself. Then empathy.

Okay. And then exploring balance. The balance piece is not letting the world buffer me. Like I don't get thrown around by happy events or sad events. I'm trying to create balance. Being grateful, I think is a huge part of that. And focus. What's my ability to focus? Can I make things happen? Can I use my brain and my emotions to get me what I need in healthy and...

Well, healthy ways that aren't destroying relationships or, you know. And if that can happen, that's, I think, the heart of emotional intelligence. And how do you define, like, we talk about self-awareness all the time, but I don't know if sometimes, like, we've really landed on what that really means. Because I think, like, we're...

sometimes really good at being self-critical, but then being self-critical isn't necessarily the same as self-awareness. Well, the technique that I use and I've used for decades now is this every day I do what's called an exam. So I take five minutes a day. Usually takes less time for me now, but I do it at the end of the day, but you can do it any time of the day. And I sit and I contemplate my day.

And I think, where did I feel most alive? Where did I feel most contributive? And where did I have really great interactions? Like, for instance, you know, tonight when I do my examine, this will be part of that exploration and that imagination. Having this conversation with the two of you right now will be an important part of my day-to-day. And in and of itself, that doesn't mean a lot. But when you start to add those data points up, okay, and then you start to see the patterns of gratitude,

it starts to be able to lead to what I would say true discernment, where I'm in alignment. My feelings, my brain, my purpose, my mission are all kind of in alignment. So for example, my pivot to parenting stuff happened because when I was doing my exam and during some very dark days during COVID, I kept coming back to these moments of gratitude. And the moments of gratitude were many, but the ones that I was kind of most grateful for were the ones with interactions with parents.

and the kind of healing and things that happen there. And so, as I was discerning, I thought, well, I have to pay attention to this. And so that's, I think, the heart of self-awareness. And that's done in gratitude, not in deficit mentality. So it's not beating myself up. There's time during the exam to do that as well. Every day I think of where I missed the mark as well. And believe me, that's hard to do as well. But I always begin with the gratitude. And I think you would probably resonate with this thought

Working on your weaknesses is a surefire way to kind of frustration and anxiety, I think. It's not that you don't work on your weaknesses, but for example, you know, like math. I just said math. I've been in the British school system too long. Take math, for example. Can I do math? Yeah. Is it my gift? No. Could I be an accountant? Yes, I guess I could be. But is that my gift? No.

I think too often times people have an idea of what they want in their head, but they don't pay attention to their gratitudes and their emotions. And so they think, well, I'm going to do this. I'm going to own this business or I'm going to do this career. I'm going to be a medical doctor. I'm going to be this, the lawyer. And their heart isn't really in it.

And you can do that for a while, but it's not going to last long. And that's a one-way ticket to burnout or frustration. And so again, the earlier you can start doing this and align yourself and purpose, I think that's the heart of self-awareness. And everything has to begin there because then once the self-awareness happens and I know myself, I can now pay attention to you more profoundly because I understand the inner workings of my life. When you are in real communication with me, I understand you better. I say things that are more meaningful.

I act in ways that are more consistent with what I value. And that's always helpful. And that allows all the other stuff, the balance and the focus and the gratitude. It's like not letting your own personal baggage get in the way of understanding other people. Exactly. We all have baggage. And bringing that to the table is important when we're doing things like therapy, when we're doing things like group support.

But it's not a place to dump. Friendships and collegial relationships aren't the place to dump all your dirt. Okay? Or even in families all the time. So if we can leave some of that stuff in its place, do the work, and then show up with our best selves, I think outcomes, everything improves. Everything improves. And people are happier. Well, I think that goes back to what you're saying also about the two North Stars. Yeah.

There's this one aspect that's external facing, but if you don't have yourself sort of sorted out, then you're going to bring your needs into,

Your own needs and wounds into these other relationships. And actually what you're trying to do is contribute and support that relationship in the context of that person, your child or your friend or your parent, rather than within the context of your wounds. And then you're projecting yourself onto it. And then it's not helpful because now two people are experiencing...

Yeah, wounded people wounding other people. I mean, it's not necessary for someone else to experience your trauma. It's enough that you've experienced it. Yeah, I think there's a phrase in the psychological world called the wounded healer. So psychotherapists and counselors, we're wounded, but we're healers. So we strive to be wounded healers.

Um, my twin brother has a, he goes, he'll say to me, Pete, that dude's a wounded wounder or whoever, like if he's talking about someone and, uh, and I laugh every time he says it because it's totally true. But there are people like that who wound, they're so wounded. They just, they can't understand their own pain and they just wound other people and parents do that and friends do that and couples do that. Yeah. But with the emotional intelligence piece of it, um,

Like, would you recommend everyone to seek outside help to improve that instead of trying to work on it yourself? I think that people understand that dumping on the people in their world is not necessarily the most helpful strategy. But they don't have any other way. And I think that the mental health community has done a better job of destigmatizing both counseling and coaching than

But I think we need, to be honest, we need to do better work there. And the thing I always try to pitch with is this isn't about helping you. This isn't about fixing you. You don't need to be fixed. This is about you exploring who you want to be, looking at it more honestly, and then getting a direction, getting a focus going. Do you want to go there? Okay, I can help you get there. That's what it's all about. But people see...

even the act of, of asking for help, especially professional help as somehow a ding on their willpower or their ability to, I don't know, self regulate. Like, you know what I mean? Like this is a, this is a broad statement and too broad perhaps, but I believe that a lot of, a lot of older parents struggle with self loathing and they,

I believe that sometimes they feel like they don't deserve the type of, I really, I believe that. I think they don't think they deserve it. That what they deserve is a child who achieves and I don't think they feel like they deserve to be loved for who they are. I think they feel like I provided and I'm loved and esteemed as a parent because I provided. But who I am as a parent, it doesn't matter. And I think it doesn't matter because I believe there's a lot of self-hate

And I believe that goes across generations and across cultures. But it's just a stab in the, I think I see that a fair amount. - You know, the self-loathing, this idea of self-loathing, does that relate to like kind of, you know, they reflect on their own failures and they project those failures onto their children and don't want their children to fail in the same way that they feel they failed? - I think it's well said, yeah. If that's the deep-rooted fear.

But I would say the deeper fear than that is that unless I provide the things I need to provide for you as a parent, be it money or access to schools or grandparenting help or something like that, then I'm not worth anything on my own. I am only valuable when I'm in a relationship of doing something for you or in some kind of where you owe me something.

That's the value. So if you owe me something, I'm valuable because, well, I must be valuable because you owe me something. I've given you something of value. But I think underneath all that is a lot of self-hatred. That's actually really profound because the idea of the owing me something, and if you owe me something, that means I've kind of done my job because I've done something for you to owe me. That almost becomes self-reinforcing. Oh, yeah. Well said. Where you start...

I don't know, craving is probably the wrong word for it, but you start like craving maybe subconsciously this idea of them owing you inside internally. It's telling them that they're doing their job as a parent. That's the way they get reinforced. That's crazy. And that's great. Like, and it goes back to like, I think just in general, like, I don't know, like you have children and they're, they're blank slates. And then everything that you wanted to do in your life, like you think that this child has an opportunity to,

to take all those advantages that maybe you didn't have. And that's how human beings get better too. Because if there wasn't some stake and some skin in the game from the parents, then the child would just like literally like not 18 years old, like it'd be like animals, like, okay, 18 days old and you go do your own thing and they get eaten up by someone. Well, I'm already feeling this way. Like my kid's still like a little baby. He's not even one years old, but I'm already like looking at him and predicting

And I'm like, the good thing is I'm self-aware of what I'm doing. So maybe I can, it's better. I can better address this later on. So it doesn't become anything, you know, worse, but like, I'm already kind of projecting my own failures.

or what I perceive as my own failures onto him. It's like all my own bullshit, you know? Already like projecting onto him and I have to catch myself. Like I gotta catch myself doing that. - Catching is the battle. It really is the battle. It's not half the battle, it's the battle. Catching it, labeling it, moving on, trying to be present in the moment. If you catch it again, catch it, label it, be present in the moment. Again, we talked about focus before when we talked about the heart of emotional intelligence. What you're doing is you're focusing in the future.

about a future you don't understand or don't know. And there's anxiety in that. Parenting, full stop, parenting is hard.

And even parents who are bad parents, whatever we consider bad parents to be, the amount of time, energy, attention that is consumed is huge, much less a good parent. So let's just get that on the table really fast. Shout out to everybody. Shout out to all the shitty parents out there. Shout out to the shitty parents and for putting even more time into your children than good parents. Yeah.

Should we toast that? You used to have a podcast, right? Limitless Law Wives. It was a hot thing for a hot second. And then my wonderful co-host, Allie was the host. I was the co-host. Let's be clear. She was the host and founder. I was the co-host. Allie Mona, amazing. She's now in Mexico. Hi, Allie. I'll send this to you. But yeah, it was great. We did over 400 episodes. Are you going to try to get back in the podcast game?

It's part of me that thinks I missed the boat. Like, we had a thing. And then when I got out of podcasting and I went back into kind of the world, you know, and kind of was working for a living, kind of, you know, like money for time, I thought to myself, it seems like there's so many great podcasts out there that it's, yeah, there's so many. I mean, I love your podcast. I'm not saying that just because I'm here. I really, really find value in your podcast. Yeah.

There are so many people doing good work on it. Like, I don't think they need necessarily another voice. Yeah, we took a left turn.

We always do. We take a lot of detours on the show. But Pete, I really, really want to thank you for coming on. I would love to get you back on and really just hear, like at different points in time, just to hear kind of what's top of mind for you. Sure. In terms of the community, in terms of the mental health work you do, the EQ work you do, all the work you're doing with the youth and students here as well, as well as parents. I mean, obviously the parenting thing is going to be huge going forward for us.

So I would always love to have you back on and have you share your insights and experiences. Yeah, I'm delighted to be here. You guys have a lovely thing going on. Really. Where can people find you? Website, r-c-g, Rogers Consulting Group. So rcg.com with dashes in between the R and the C. Was rcg taken?

Yes. Are you just the fancy guy? No. But I do like the look of the dashes. Yeah. But it's harder to type than just RCG. But RCG is another Rogers Consulting Group. And it actually is a Rogers Consulting Group, not like Robert's Consulting Group or something like that. It's a Rogers Consulting Group. Okay. But not as cool as we are. You got the cool one. We got the cool one. So that, but also, you can look me up at communitycenter.com.

Shanghai, communitycentershanghai.com. Just look us up if you need a counselor. We're here to help. And yeah, I'm around. I did a TED Talk recently, and hopefully that'll be live soon. Oh, really? Oh, okay. That's going to come out soon? I hope. It's done. What was the subject? Great leadership begins with three commitments.

One of those three commitments. We'll have to listen to the... We're opening up another kid at work. All right. We'll save that for another podcast. Pete, cheers. Cheers. Thank you. Cheers. That was Pete. I'm Justin. I'm Eric, and I don't know how he is. No, he missed out today. I know. He really missed out. He's the one that needed it most, actually. Probably. If you think we're messed up, come on. Oh, he's got issues. He's got issues. Let's toast to that. We lived in the freaking loving container compared to that guy. I know.

Anyway, be well. Peace.