Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hey everybody, welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. As always, you can hit us up at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, or subscribe. Now, today, this will be the last episode of 2019. That's right, the last episode of the year. And due to the holidays and Chinese New Year coming up, we're going to be taking a short break next month and kick off the new season of this podcast in February. So,
So stay tuned in February for when we return with a whole new lineup of episodes and guests. You know, we started this podcast back in July of this year, really with the only intention of talking to each other and our friends and using the podcast as sort of an excuse to do it.
And really in just in five months or so, this show has kind of evolved into something else. You know, through the conversations and meeting and bonding with all the guests we've had on the show, it's given us new perspective and inspiration moving forward. So I just want to take this time to thank everyone who has tuned into this podcast and all the great friends and guests who have participated and shared oftentimes very personally on The Honest Drink. Now,
Now, today's episode I thought was quite fitting as the last episode of the year because we kind of go back to what started this podcast in the first place. And that's Eric, Howie, and myself talking to each other about the things that stress us out.
We talk a little bit about insomnia, coming to terms with age, seeking adventure, trying new things, improvising, and the fear of public speaking. And many of these, as you may tell, tie right into the themes of why we actually started this podcast. And also, just as a note, when we recorded this episode, we didn't know we were going to be taking a one-month break right after. So when you hear us say next week, what we really mean is next episode. So...
Thank you all. See you soon in 2020. We're all going to come back better than ever. And without further ado, episode 24. Here we go. I love you.
like visualization the you know breathing noting things so i've been through like probably a few hundred hours of like these meditation things starting like one or two years ago it just helps kind of calm myself down and build some perspective it's starting to um you know after like a year of doing this i'm starting to get to the point where in the middle of the day
I'm able to apply the technique to change the way that I feel or I'm reacting in the moment, just starting that process. So before you do the meditation, then you go through your day and they were disconnected. Like however you behave during the day, if you're a raging asshole, I was still a raging asshole, right? But now I'm getting to the point where like occasionally, maybe one out of 10 times, I'm about to be a raging asshole. And then I'm like, oh wait, I don't have to be a raging asshole. I can just like not be one.
So it's, you know, of course, like your body goes through and your mind goes through. As you go through stress, of course, there's the physical element of that putting pressure on yourself. You know how at the end of the day you're tired and stuff, right? Yeah. But the meditation definitely helps you kind of reset a little bit. Well, they say that you should get a minimum of seven hours of sleep. But it's different for everyone. But it is crucial. For the general public. Yeah, I listened to Matthew Walker recently.
on joe rogan and um you know like i think okay so here's my take on that stuff okay
I think sleep is every bit as important as they say, but you don't need to read a whole fucking book to tell you all the fucking data of how it makes you perform better. Just get fucking seven hours. Right. And if you can't get seven hours, and the other problem is that people who can't get seven hours, most of it, like a lot of time, it's not because they don't want to, it's just, they have sleep problems. Like they're healthy people. They don't drink. Some people just have fucking sleep problems. So, you know, like,
like keep like talking about it over and over and how important it is doesn't help the people that actually have sleep problems. I have a question. Do you, Eric and Justin, do any of you have problems falling asleep? And if, if you do, or when you do, what do you, you know, what do you do to try to get yourself to fall asleep? Any techniques? I've been, I mean, this is the boring answer, but it's the true answer. I've been very fortunate that I sleep pretty well.
Every once in a, and we've talked about this in a previous, I think in the cold shower episode. Every once in a blue moon, I'll get like insomnia and I won't be able to fall asleep. But for the most part, I don't usually have a problem. So I've been very fortunate. I feel like the people who consistently cannot fall asleep or have insomnia, things like that. Like I feel really sorry for them because even the few times that I get it, the rare times that I get it,
it's horrible. It's like suffering because it's like, and the next day is just shit. So I can't imagine like having that on a daily basis, you know, and also having responsibilities, like important responsibilities to take care of the next day. And I mean, that's just, that's just a really shitty position. So yeah, I mean, I can't really speak too much on it because I get pretty decent sleep. - How about you, Eric?
Same. Same as Justin. Wow, you guys are so lucky. Like I said, I'm super lucky and I do feel sorry. I do have friends who...
that get a little bit of insomnia, but like you don't really know their lives. You don't know the stresses that they're going through. They may have certain ways of their habits, like you just don't know. So it's hard to say what's causing it, but I do feel really sorry if you're trying to do everything, you're living a healthy lifestyle and then you still have that type of issue. I'm generally, like if I work out and I had a full day, like when I get to bed, I just pass the fuck out. I'm like done.
Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So I think part of it is just like, you know, if you, I guess you just have to keep yourself like busy every day.
Right. With like healthy stuff, like healthy stuff, like keep yourself busy, try to be productive, you know, exercise every day, go to bed at the same time. It sounds like a cliche, but if you like, if you wake up early regularly, you have shit to do, then you need, you know, like it's harder to wake up when you don't have shit to do. If you have shit to do, you wake up, you go through the day, you bust your ass. Right. Right.
And then by the end of the day, you're fucking tired and then you just conk out. That's pretty much. Yeah, but shit just pops up too. Like, for example, like the times that I do get insomnia and I can't fall asleep are usually times when I'm thinking about too many things that are kind of stressing me right before I fall asleep.
And usually, if it's things that I've known throughout the day and I've been taking care of throughout the day, it's usually okay. But it's usually things like that pop up last minute. Like I'll get a text like an hour before I go to sleep or whatever, right? Something like that.
and something has gone wrong or some shit has happened or whatever, something that's giving me stress. And because it's already kind of late, I can't really work on it too much, but I can't really call people if people are sleeping and I can't really get it handled. All I can do is think about it and think about how I'm gonna tackle this the next day. And that kind of stress is usually what
makes me not able to fall asleep but it's only like when it pops up more or less last minute
And then now, like now I have to like devote all my energy to strategizing and thinking about how I'm going to handle this versus something. It can be the same thing, but if it had happened earlier in the day, like let's say earlier in the afternoon or in the morning, I would have had that time already to come up with a plan or kind of digest it a little bit. So it's different. That's nice for me. How about you, Harry? Because I know you out of the three of us, you're the one that has probably the worst quality of sleep. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
I mean, for me, when I have trouble sleeping, I have two techniques that I like to use, depending on the reason why I can't sleep. Well, one is, like you said, stress. If I'm really stressed out, there's a lot of things on my mind, work-wise or whatever. It usually is about work.
And usually what happens is I'm just cycling through my mind what I have to do, right? So tomorrow I got to do this. I got to do that. I got to do this. I got to do that. I got to remind myself to do this and that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And basically instead of doing that, I just turn on the light and I write everything down and basically unload my brain onto paper. And that usually helps. So that's one. So you get your thoughts onto paper. Yeah. And even, I mean, even works like,
Like away from work. If I'm just starting... If I start thinking about things, right? I just start writing it down. And then basically letting myself subconsciously know I'm going to handle it tomorrow. You know? That kind of thing. Don't think about it now. That kind of stuff. The second technique is counting backwards. So this is just more of a general. If I just can't sleep and, you know, nothing really specific going on in my life and I just can't sleep, then I just count backwards. And usually the...
The boredom of counting the numbers. So how high do you start first? From 100? From 100. Yeah, so I start from 100. I start going backwards. And usually what happens, I'll start noticing is when I get to around 80 something, I'm
I'll forget that I'm counting. So like 20 numbers. Yeah. And like I kind of like half fall asleep. You know what I mean? And then I reset. I'm like, oh, fuck, 100, 99, 98. And I start going again. And next thing you know, it's like I'll clunk out. Like usually those two techniques help me. So is this like –
How often are you not able to fall asleep and you have to apply these techniques? Less these days. It was more when I was unhappy with what I was doing, you know, a couple years ago. But yeah, these years, it's a lot more rare. So even though you're busier now than you were before and you have more responsibilities, but because you're on a very clear...
kind of career path where this is what you know you want to do, that's actually less stressful on you. Yeah. Yeah. Even though there's a lot more work and responsibility. No, it's equally stressful. I get, you know, I get stressed out, but it's not like...
a negative stress. It's, it's just stress. It's just, I have a lot to do, you know, I have a lot of responsibilities and, you know, when a project comes, depending on the scale of the project, you know, but it's not that stress. Like, Oh, where am I going with my life? It's not a stress where that existential stress. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I had that one, the existential stress of, you know, why am I even putting up with this? And two is also the stress of not knowing how to do something, you know, or like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I guess like,
Like, for example, directing and stuff like that, I know how to problem solve. I know the approaches on how to do something. You know, even if I don't or have never done it before, I can figure it out. You know, and I'm confident. But then in my previous role, I would think that, you know, managing people in the PR world is just not something that I am into or am extra skilled at, you know? And so when I have to...
face issues with that type of job role. Yeah, I get stressed because it's like, it's not something I'm kind of like attuned to, you know, to thrive at doing. So yeah, so I get that type of stress. It's a different type of stress. That's interesting. I mean, not to get off topic here, but can we expand on that thought? Because when you said that, it makes me think,
Well, most people walking around living this world are not doing something that they enjoy doing necessarily or passionate about doing. Most people are in a job because it pays the bills and it's a job they can get. And, you know, they're there. They're not extra passionate about it or necessarily even happy doing it. And so that's kind of...
I mean, that could be a huge indicator or a huge cause of what is really kind of stressing people in general, I guess, in society, maybe about that purpose. A person's purpose has to be in tune with what they want to do. Yeah, because if you have a stressful job and or you have a lot of responsibilities in whatever field you're in, and it's not something that, A, you're very confident in,
in your skillset or in yourself in general, or B, you just have no interest in it and you're just sort of doing it to do it, then yeah, this type of stress, it sucks. It's not a good one. But if you're doing something that you enjoy or you're doing something that you feel like you're good at or whatever, then I think it's a different type of stress. I think it really mentally, I mean, I can see the difference in the way it affects people
my mind and body, this type of stress. - Well, is that at that point, is this maybe just pressure, not stress? I mean, is that one of the same pressure and stress? - I mean, yeah. - Or is it just semantics? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, both have it, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's not like I'm doing it like a, I'm like a sales guy in a store, you know, like roaming the floor, trying to sell some clothes.
I mean, I probably won't be having that much high level stress because the, the responsibility is not as high as someone. I mean, you know, if you're a, you know, director of a department, you know, and you're responsible for all these people and, and, you know, you know, company, then you have different type of responsibility. So Howie, let me ask you currently right now in your life, what would you say is the single biggest source of stress in your life right now? Hmm.
I think it's just continuing my growth. I think about that a lot. So again, like what you said in the cold shower episode, it's like more future. Yeah. Like your future. Yeah. Like where your future is headed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really? That's like interesting almost. All right. That stresses me out because, you know, I guess I'm sensitive about my age. And when I got back into this field of filmmaking...
yeah well you felt like you you got back in it like too late yeah i should have that i should have kept with it so that really eats at you even though there's nothing you can do about it now all the time yeah based on where you are in your filmmaking profession what had you started from the very beginning like how much younger would you be um what do you mean like it
at this my my sort of level right now if i started earlier like what would be the ideal age is that what you're saying yeah i can rephrase it um in a different way so like what age would you be right now where you'd be satisfied with what you've already accomplished like 28 30 so if you were if you were in your position right now but you were 28 why are you laughing
No, I'm not. See, I'm practicing mindfulness right now because the normal me would have made a snide, you know, hurtful remark that I would have regretted later. And inside you did. No, inside I didn't. And I realized that like we all feel that way. Like we all are stressed out about that. And then it makes me feel like empathy and sort of like, okay, you shouldn't feel that way, Howie. Like you're great.
for what you are. And like, even if you had accomplished this, if you were 28, maybe you would have experienced a slowdown. Maybe you would have gotten cocky and then you'd be the same age. Yeah. There's so many other things. There's so many other factors, right? Well, there's many, there's many points that you're making too. Like one is it's irrelevant now to even think about that because you can't do anything. But that's the logical side of it. Yeah. All you can do is do the best now. And you're still a relatively young man, but,
But even if you were, like let's say you were 28 right now in your position, you might be thinking, oh man, I should have started when I was 17. You know what I mean? 18. Probably. So it would be never enough. Or you'd be 28 and you would be a little bit, you'd be pushed beyond your limits and you'd be stressed out and it would impact other parts of your life because you've over indexed on this thing.
Right. You could be stressed out and you might not have made the right decisions. Maybe you start. You might even have just gone out of filmmaking altogether because at that young age, because you didn't have the same life experience that you've experienced throughout the years at that point, you would have been like, well, the grass is greener. I mean, I haven't tried all these other things that I might be interested in. And you might have just kind of dabbled in other fields and, you know,
wound up coming back to filmmaking and exactly where you are now. That's right. You know what I'm saying? That's right. But because you didn't, because you already experienced so many things outside of filmmaking, that just gave you more clarity on, no, filmmaking is really where it's at for me. And you were like, that gave you the clarity to be like,
it's filmmaking or nothing. Like I gotta do this. And, and, but you had to have gone through those experiences to have that clarity. Yeah. Well, one question I want to ask you, Howie, is that we know that recently you've done some really great work, you know, with, um, you know, with some of the films and things that you've done. Right. And are you getting, but we know that like that's causing, uh,
a little bit of stress because you've had to travel all over the world. Did you enjoy that? Like, did you get satisfaction out of some of the recent, you know, pretty hardcore projects that you had to do? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I live for it. That's the best way I can describe it is it's super stressful. I'm not one day off for like over a month, you know, averaging like five hours of sleep, you know, sometimes two or three, you know,
And yeah, loving every moment of it. Well, I'm really happy to hear that because it was kind of the last month or two. We've been kind of thinking about you a little bit too, right? Especially while you're out of the country. Can you share a little bit about what you learned from that experience? The only thing I think I can take away is it just further established that this is what I really enjoy doing.
And it's just further ingrained in my head that, I mean, this route of my career path, I mean, there's many different routes to go. And one of the things I really enjoy is traveling. And I think that's one career path I'm going to sort of try to manipulate a little bit more. And I have a couple of projects under my belt where I shot abroad and I'm going to try to keep pushing for that.
Because I really do enjoy that. Even though it's like everyone's always asking, like, they go, oh, for example, I just came back from Chile, right? And they're like, oh, wow, you went to Chile. It must have been so much fun. And my first response is, I mean, I didn't have fun. It was just, it was work. And I did not have any time to...
enjoy myself at all. Yeah, it's not like you were like... Yeah. Like going to like trying all the food and restaurants. No. No, it was all set up by the producer and like it was just, you know, we're just on path. And, you know, actually the second we landed, we went to the hotel, put down our bags and went right away to location scouting. You know, it's like after a 30-hour flight. You know what I mean? And yeah, and it's just like... And from that minute on, it was just non-stop until we left. So...
In that respect, yeah, I didn't have fun. But at the same time, it was fun. You know, I mean... Was part of the... I love what you said about, like, you live for this, right? And I guess that makes... Like, as your friends, that just makes us happy to hear that...
like this is what you live for. So it doesn't really matter where you are in this process. Like you're doing, you're at a level where you can do work, where you can live for it. Right. I mean, I get it. Like if you were in a really junior position, you know, then you probably wouldn't get as much satisfaction, but you're like, you're leading these projects. I'm curious, you know, did you, are there certain core values that you have that you've reflected on that leads you to get satisfaction? Like for instance, like,
Is that something that's sort of deeply ingrained in you so that like when you go on that, you know, you fly for 30 hours into the place you've never been and then you have to go look for the location. Like what are some of the things that you learned about yourself in terms of what drives you? Yeah, I think you kind of mentioned something that.
I realized, which is this whole adventure side of myself. I never really thought about it that way. But I do like, I mean, I'm the kind of guy that would try new things on a menu, you know, at a restaurant. I'm the kind of guy that would, you know, want to go somewhere or do something that I've never done before just to try it, just to see. But I don't seek it.
you know what i mean like if you're if you just happen to be in that position you would take the adventure yeah but i don't i don't normally see you go out of your way yeah that's just my personality i think but you know for example these type of trips um yeah it was just like i saw myself you know head first running into like even like uh being on the cliff like i'm afraid of heights
But, you know, I'm the one that runs right to the edge. And everyone's like, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't worry. I'm not going to, I'm afraid of heights. I'm not going to like jump or anything. I'm not going to go too close. But then I started, you know, getting to the edge and like crawling to the edge and just to do it, you know what I mean? And hang my feet off. And even though I'm afraid of heights, even though I was like shaking, but I just like to put myself in situations that I've, you know, I've never done before.
And just to do it. That's really, I can relate to that. It's like, if you present something to me, that's something new, like I'll definitely take you up on it because I want to try new things, but I'm kind of lazy, I suppose. And so I sometimes like, and I was, you know, we were talking about this a little bit earlier, like meeting new people. And it's kind of like, I wish I had more, um,
natural motivation to go out and seek things that I've never done before, like proactively, like be the guy to be like, Hey, let's go try this out. And be more proactive, right? Like to don't proactive. And, um, but yeah, definitely like if there's something, um,
you know, that's presented to me, that option, like I'll take it. Right. And so I think like, what are the things that we can do to get out of that mode where we're a little bit more adventurous, knowing that we enjoy adventure because a lot of people, you put them in a situation and they will enjoy it, but they don't take that first step sometimes. And I think a lot of successful people are the ones that somehow are able to reprogram themselves to take that first step and to go on the adventure. And then they experience things. We know we're going to enjoy the adventure, right?
within reason. However, sometimes we don't actually, you know, take the initiative or are intentional about creating adventures for ourselves. I think it ties into everyone's individual level of risk tolerance. And, and
I mean, like if you're the type to like overanalyze things, I think that's when you don't take as many adventures or risks. You're not as proactive in that regard because then you start overanalyzing it and then you're like, well, this could go wrong and that can happen and this can happen. And then you start thinking about all the negatives instead of pros and cons.
the potential positives. And then you start weighing those and you're like, eh, okay, well, take it or leave it. I'm not really gonna do it. - Analysis paralysis, right? - Yeah, exactly. And again, everyone's tolerance of risk is different and it all depends on how high you prioritize the idea and concept of going on adventures. To some people that might not, it's easy to say,
Conceptually, everyone's like, yeah, I love an adventure. Great. It's easy to say that. But to really do it and to really be about that life, I think you really have to prioritize that. And there are some people that do. There are some people that really prioritize that and they're backpackers and they just travel the world. And they're not booking anything. They're just traveling and walking and just whatever happens, happens. And they just go with the flow and they find their way through life.
through these countries and through like, you know, foreign lands and meeting new people. And, you know, that's the lifestyle that they've chosen. And because that is a priority for them to go on that kind of journey.
But for many people like us, you know, we're city dwellers for the most part, and we have our daily routines and we're like in our routine and that's not necessarily a priority for us. Like when we think about it and we're talking about it now. - It sounds romantic. - It sounds romantic. It's a very romantic idea. And it's like, Ooh, that would be cool. Sure. I would do that.
But, you know, when, when, when, when, after this is done, we're just going to probably go back and fall back into our routines, you know? Yeah. I just want to add on to that. Like, for example, this last, one of my last projects brought me to Chile, right? And, yeah.
I probably would not have chosen to go to Chile otherwise. You know what I mean? Like if it was just me deciding to go to Chile for vacation. Yeah, if I had asked you like, hey, you want to go to Chile? Yeah. Like you would be like, no. I'd be like, no, it wouldn't pop in my mind. I have other places that pop in my mind before Chile. But then once landing there and also doing research about the country, it's freaking amazing. You know, and I want to go back now to Patagonia. Yeah.
you know, where it's like, you know, closer towards the South Pole, you know what I mean? And I mean, but once again, that sounds more romantic than actually doing it maybe. But I mean, even Easter Island, you know, is right off Chile. Did you know that? I think we get, I'm trying to think.
Sort of like the why behind this and then the how. Because one of the things you mentioned was the risk factor. And I feel like with us, based on what I know about us, risk is probably one piece, but we're not like risk averse. It's more like what you were saying with the thinking too much. And it's the indecisiveness.
And so we started thinking, yeah. And the effort, right. Totally. Yeah. So yeah, that's a, I think that's a really nice way of saying, I was going to say like, I'm, you know, I'm kind of like, I'm lazy or whatever, but yeah, it's the effort. And then you kind of overthink that. Is it worth the effort? Right. And so, um,
I think maybe we have to be a little bit more intentional. One of the things, so like we captured like the beginning of my day and the end of my day. And there's a few things that, you know, are sandwiched in the middle. And I've sort of adjusted it a little bit, but I think it's do something unexpected or do something hard, you know, whether it's like every week or every month or every day, but you kind of have to set a goal for yourself in a flexible sort of open-ended way and say, okay, do something unexpected every week.
Right. Because that's,
that's how like most people get into things. Like very few people like take a straight line from point A to point Z. Usually they go from point A to point B and then from B they have a new vantage point and then they see something and they go to C and D. And we've had this conversation before. So sometimes like it's this inertia, right? Like where we're kind of like calcified in the way we do things and like some of it's like routine. So we do the same things every day and we don't wanna break out of it because it takes more effort.
So, you know, I think we're like human beings are always trying to conserve energy. Like the way our minds sort of work, we're always trying to kind of reduce the amount of like mental effort. Right? So I think the word effort is probably, you know, like the best word we could possibly use, but how can you expend? So it's not about expending less effort. It's where can you expend more effort to put yourself in a situation or something that you might enjoy that you just never have thought of.
But I think, Eric, you said something really nice where I kind of want to just keep adding on to, which is, you know, by doing something unexpected, right? Putting yourself in situations, going places you've never gone to, doing things you never normally do.
I mean, that's just also helping yourself get clearer on who you are. Yeah. Right? By doing that. Otherwise, like, for example, if I never went to a beach, would I ever know that I love the beach? Right? You know? So it's like, just by, you know, experiencing things. And I think that's my biggest, you know, you asked me what my biggest takeaway is, is
yeah, that's it. I just want to keep experiencing things. - Well, you know, a good, like, you know, going back to talk about habits, maybe like a good routine or habit to build in is once a week or even once a month, do something you've never done before. And it could be a small thing. It doesn't have to be a huge thing. It can be, but it can also be just a smooch, a small thing. But the idea is once a week, do something you have never done before.
All right. What if we up the ante even more? What if we all agree on this, right? We all try to do this once a week. One thing. It could be something small, right? And then at the front of every podcast, we talk about it. What we did. That's a good idea. Keep us accountable. Yeah. Yeah.
And it could be something stupid. It could be something stupid. It could be, you know, I woke up on the other side of the bed this day. Yeah. You know what I mean? As long as it's something you've never done before. Something you've never done before. Okay. And just keep building on it. So we'll make that commitment. Are we going to do it? Are we going to make a commitment? Let's do it. I think we won't bore the listeners with what we might do. We'll...
be more action oriented and we'll come back in the next episode and actually say what we did. To your, you know, I keep going back to the word effort. So here's a line that I think captures some of this. Don't be afraid of effort, even if the outcome is unknown. I'm going to try to live by that. The, you know, because you keep bringing up effort, but for me, yeah,
I think you cannot separate effort from priority. Those two things go hand in hand because if something is a high priority for you, you're going to put in the effort. That's a no brainer. You're not going to put in an effort when something is lower on. That's when you're going to be like, if something's not a priority for you, that's when you're thinking, oh, is it worth the effort? But if something is very high on your priority list, you don't go, you don't, you don't ask yourself, oh, is it worth the effort? You, you, you, you get it done. You do it.
Because it's important to you. Absolutely. So at that point, when something is a high enough priority for somebody, the effort part isn't even an issue anymore because it has to get done. You're going to do it. Yeah. It's only when something's kind of like in that middle, like, you know, kind of, you know,
few rungs down where it's like, it's not a high priority, but it's not a terribly low priority either. It's just kind of middle of the road. Then you're like, Oh, well, is it really worth the effort to do this? Well, if you really want to do it, you wouldn't be asking yourself that in the first place. And, and sort of, I think that's a great point because what we, what we are doing normally though is because we,
Things that we haven't done before, we don't know what to expect. So we don't prioritize it because we're not sure of what the outcome is. And so we actually are not willing to expend the effort for this thing because we don't know what outcome is going to happen. Yeah, we don't know what's going to bring us. Yeah, and it's like, oh no, that's going to suck. To your point, we start coming up with this negative narrative, right? And so it's like we never tried it before. So then we find a million reasons to say this thing will suck.
However, to your point, if we prioritize and say the act of actually experiencing something new, whether it's good or bad, is in itself an experience that will help us grow, then we'll prioritize it. So we prioritize the mindset rather than any expected outcome. The do something principle. Exactly. Yeah. Do something from Mark Manson. That's right. Yeah.
That's right. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great principle. I mean, that, that, that is truly of all the things I've read this year. Um, that one chapter in his book is probably something I find the most compelling. Yeah. Is that do something principle. That's right. Cause I, I believe in a hundred percent. Yeah. It's not, you know, it becomes where the very act of just doing something is the reward is the, is the, uh,
is the outcome is the is the goal yeah and if you live by that then you keep progressing and if you think just by doing something whether the result of that doing something comes in a success or a failure just the fact that you did something is already a success and is already progress then you're always you're never really failing you know that's right I guess in the grand scheme of things I don't know
But for you, Eric, what would be going back to stressors then? Like what would be your primary source of stress these days? And have you found that your routine that you've been trying to be consistent with, has that helped? It's a question that I want to take back to myself. And, you know, I think it's difficult to answer like, you know, in a simple way. Yeah. Because...
but it is a question that we should all ask ourselves. And our goal, our intention is to be clear about what the answer is. Like if you can answer the question of what stresses you out, then you can do something about it. So I think we don't actually ask the question. So like, we don't think about it. And so, you know, we kind of go through our routines and then we are stressed out and we're not happy, but we're not intentional about asking the question, what actually stresses you out. Right. I think,
What Howie was saying, I feel the same way. Everyone, regardless of where you are in your career, you're probably a little bit stressed out about where you are compared to where you think you could be. It's kind of like quite...
I think the human condition yeah most people feel that way right no matter where you are the 28 year old that is doing the stuff that how he's doing now he's stressing out you know like you said um about not doing things you know that he could have done before right um but I think on a more just like practical level um what stresses me out is like not being prepared you know so like you
you know, having a meeting or needing to do something where I could have just like prepared and, but I procrastinated. And then I got to a point where I have to just pull shit together, like in the moment. And I have the capability of being able to pull stuff together like pretty quickly, but it's fucking stressful. So like improvising. Yeah. Improvising. Right. And it's almost like, you know, there's some people that are really bad at improvising, so they just can't.
Because they don't have... It's not an option for them. Yeah, it's not an option or they have the fear of improvising. I'm not great at improvising, but sometimes I rely on it and that stresses me out. And so, you know...
but over time I've kind of gotten better. I think, I think like, you know, it's something that we're all kind of working on. Maybe you should join like an improv troupe, like as like for that thing, like you've never done before. Yeah. Like maybe one of them should be joining an improv. Yeah. And just do it in Shanghai. Just go like, just do like those improv, improv shows. Well, I've thought about that. Because, you know, public speaking and presenting and, and, and doing that. Like, I think every, it stresses everyone out, right? Like,
Like what, what did Mark Twain say about public speaking? I'll have to find that quote. Right. But he had this really, really great quote. It's like something like there are people who are either deathly afraid of public speaking or they're lying about being deathly afraid of public speaking. Right. And so like if you can measure my body vitals in a presentation, like, you know, oftentimes like,
you know, people comment like, Hey, you seem really chill, like super calm. Like that was pretty smooth. Like inside I was a motherfucking Mount Vesuvius. Right. It was like, it's so interesting because I really, you know, Eric, I really, I would not have thought of you to be like that.
Like I would think of you as the type that would be overly prepared, you know, overly rehearsed. No, no. But to his point, he is. That's why when he isn't, it brings him so much stress. Yeah. Because that is his character to be like that. Yeah. Cause, cause, cause I'm laughing because he's out of his element. For me, I'm like the opposite. Like I thrive on like improvising and just like being in the moment. Oh yeah. Like when I do presentations, I'm,
I hate it because I get stressed too. Okay, wait, hold on. Just disclaimer, if you're a client of Howie, you're paying him like big ass bucks. You're paying for that improvisation. Okay, don't worry about it if you didn't prepare. Don't worry that his rate is like $1 million an hour. It's worth it. But go on though. No, but like, you know, when I used to have to do presentations, I remember like it's...
I know that if I rehearsed, I went through it, I, you know, I, I'll know all the talking points. I know I'm a horrible public, public speaker. You know, I'll be, I'll be much better if I practiced, but I just don't do it. And then I'll just walk right in, you know, and then glance at the slide and just fucking wing it. You know, are you stressed at all when you have to do that? Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I just, but that's why I just put myself in that situation. Yeah. And I tend to be okay.
But why? Like, if you can prepare, why not then? I don't know. I don't know. You'd just rather not prepare. But I think, okay, so for these days now, these type of situations are a bit less. And I also think being more experienced and older, I think I just know what to talk about.
You know what I mean? - Well, 'cause you have confidence in the knowledge of whatever you're talking about. - Yeah, I think that's what it is. - So you have a lot in your repertoire to pull from. - Pull from, exactly. - Because you're very well versed and you know exactly what you're doing. So it's like, oh, I don't need to prepare because I'm ready for any questions because I know this stuff like the back of my hand anyway. I live and breathe it. - Yeah. - Yeah, I get that. - Yeah, I think that's the difference. - Yeah. But then you can't really be stressed by that.
Like being stressed, like Eric says, like when you really don't know and you have to like just like fucking pull shit out of your ass and just hope it sticks. I mean, that's when it gets really stressful. But when you really know what you're talking about and you have to improvise based on what you know. You know, I just thought of this. I had this mental image of like you pull shit out of your ass and then on the off chance that you pull out like a crepe or like a piece of foie gras. It's like you pull shit out of your ass and it doesn't stink.
Oh, yeah. Okay. I wasn't quite getting that analogy. I was getting... He was being very literal. I was getting very literal. I'm like, fuck raw. Did you say crepe at one point? Yeah. I couldn't think of anything tasty. Like a pancake. Like a clean pancake. Oh.
Anyways. He lost me, man. Yeah. But I think like, you know, we all have fairly high standards. And so when you're really putting yourself out there, like in a public presentation with an audience, right? Like that's your reputation on the line. That's people's like image of you. And so for me, like...
when I'm kind of improvising, there's that it's, it's, it's two sided. One is like not totally, you know, being 100% prepared. The other piece is like, I have high standards. So, you know, I want people to think that I am prepared and that, you know, I'm a dynamic, charming sort of presenter. And so it's like these two kind of opposing forces that come together that causes a tremendous amount of stress. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, man. I mean, public speaking is, I mean, this was like in a poll. I mean, it's been forever, but I don't know if it's changed, but for forever, public speaking was the number one phobia of all phobias that people had that did this service, right? In the US. Do you fear?
Yeah, I think you're pretty good. I get nervous. I get nervous. You seem pretty good. How many takes do you have to... So, for the podcast intros, I mean, you know, like you sound pretty smooth. You know, the first couple were a little nervous, but how many takes do you do? Like, do you get nervous? The first couple...
I did multiple takes. How many? Like 10? 50? Like the first one, I did like fucking 20 takes. Is that why your iCloud storage just blew up? No, because it's... But it's more... It's not more... It wasn't because I was nervous. It was just because the first couple...
I didn't really think out what I was going to say. So I was just like talking into the microphone and then midway through, I'm like, nah, I didn't really like that. So I just start over and be like, okay, well, what do I want to say? So now I, I, I'm very clear now when I do an intro, what this episode was about, what do I want to say? What do I want to get across? How do I want to introduce it? Um,
And I'm kind of clear about how I want to structure the intro. So then I just go through it. So now I do it in one take or maybe two, you know? So it's not. And I think that's a great takeaway because like, you know, sometimes when you have to present something, you stress out about exactly what you want, like the actual words, right? So you stress out about like, should I say this? Should I say this? Should I say this? And then over time you realize that if you just have like a vision, right?
you know, a general structure and kind of a meaning for what you want to do, then the words kind of come out. And so like over time, like, you know, there've been times where I've scripted things, right. Where I've literally like scripted everything out. And then I had like difficulty memorizing that. Right. Sometimes it's kind of productive. And then, and it's like, okay, well, what are you actually trying to accomplish? What's the meaning? Bullet things out. Just remember the actual bullets and,
Like we are, we've spent our whole lives speaking. It's not like this is like, I'm not like a baby and being like, you know, this is not my first word. I've spoken a lot of words in my fucking life. Right. So have the bullets in your head. And so I think sometimes think we overcomplicate things. I, you know, I'll script things out and then I'll go up there and I'll be like, I fucking forget every word. And I'll be like, I'm fucked.
Right. And then, and then it's like, then sometimes you just go up there and you're like, okay, I know the main points and you go up there and you're super natural and you, and, and you know, you're great. So it's almost like if you over prepare sometimes, it bites you in the butt. But you're, you're, you're a hundred percent spot on. Cause I've talked to other public speakers before, and that is one of the,
you know, since high school, that was one of the things they've always told me is don't try to script it word for word. Cause then you're always gonna be, then you end up trying to just memorize rather than just really- - Feel it. - Then feel it and speak it from the heart. - That's totally right. - And you're never gonna be as eloquent when you're just trying to memorize, cause you're gonna forget certain things. And once you forget one thing, you're thrown completely off track. - Oh, totally. - And the rest of it, you're just like stumbling, trying to like get back on track.
Whereas if you just go off of bullet points and the bullet points just bring up concepts where you can just naturally expand on. - Yeah. - That is when you're gonna be at your best. - Exactly. And I would guess, like I don't, you know, I don't claim to know much about like neurobiology, but when you script something,
you're scripting it based on the syntax in the structure of the language. When you do bullets, you're actually just following the synapses in your brain. So you're basically just activating the pathways that are already in your brain. So one thing leads to another and then things feel really natural. Whereas if you script something, like your brain is capturing and storing that in some kind of database. And if any kind of relationship in the database breaks down, then you're fucked.
right? Then you don't really know what's going on. And then you lose the sense of where you are. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's the thing with, with, with public speaking. That's the thing with the intro because the intro isn't really an accurate thing because I have full autonomy over it and I'm recording it here. So if I don't like something, I can just redo it. But when you're put on the spot in public speaking, it's that one take, there's only that one shot, you know what I mean? And it's live.
and all eyes on you. So it's a whole different animal when you're doing it. But what stresses me out the most is when you have to bullshit your way through. Because when you know what you're talking about or you're coming from a place of truth and knowledge, then for me, it's not stressful much at all because...
I can just flip that switch and just start talking about it. It's like telling the truth versus lying and then, you know, and then, and then trying to appear like you're telling the truth, because if you're telling the truth, no one can fade you. Like if a cop comes and says like, you know, what'd you do yesterday? You can remember every detail because everything has been programmed in your brain. But if you're trying to lie, then you're basically trying to replicate that exact memory structure in your brain and
- You're trying to create a forgery. - Yeah, you're trying to create a forgery and every detail is not authentic. - That is a huge part of it. Another part of it I've noticed is, and you touched upon this earlier, is the importance of trying to sound eloquent, right? Like if you try too hard to sound eloquent,
that's when you sound the least eloquent. Because then you get so nervous about sounding eloquent, you're analyzing each word and how it's phrased and how you say it and the tone in which you say it and the demeanor and even your body language comes into play, blah, blah, blah. You start thinking about all these little details and then you end up being very robotic in that sense. And you get even more nervous because you're trying so hard to be cool and sound eloquent.
But if you just let your personal, like just your natural self come out, that is when anyone is at their most eloquent, I guess. For lack of a better word is when a speaker seems really natural, even if they're not the best speaker, even if what they're saying in terms of content isn't even the best, but if they just seem natural,
like they're in their home uh that exudes a certain level a high level of confidence yeah as opposed when someone's just like kind of reading off script or fidgety yeah it's uh it's just feeling natural is the best um best attribute a public speaker can have so those ideas should inform the way we prepare so if you really think about preparation is necessary
preparation is not so much to help you create that final product. Preparation is to help you master the information so that when you do have to deliver it, you can do it in a natural way. And so I think sometimes we think preparation is this superficial thing where we come together and we produce a product and then we have to present that product. Whereas probably the best
you know, way to do it is to prepare in a way where you're really just getting familiar with the actual content, whatever it is. Yeah. And so then when you're then presenting it, you're just sharing what you already know, what's already, you know, kind of in your head. Yeah, absolutely. So next week, next week, we have to come up with something that tell people about something we've never done before.
Okay, we got to hold ourselves accountable. I think it can be broad in the sense where it's something we've never done or experienced or tried, right?
Yeah. I mean, something we've never done before. I think that encapsulates all those. Yeah. We'll see. Like, I think we'll come back and, you know, we'll let our listeners decide who's most adventurous, you know, who's most creative. Yeah. Maybe this will say a lot about us, like what we choose to be like, because for you, you can be like, Oh, I woke up on the side of bed and I can be like, Oh, I went skydiving. And then how he's like, I changed my name. Yeah.
Like, this will say a lot about our characters, too. Like, what we choose. What we choose to do. You know, what we choose to try. That's right. That's fun. All right, guys. All right, cool. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Good one. How did we get on public speaking? I don't know. Yeah.
Bye.