#42. Michael J. Jordan: Mind The Media
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, you know what to do. Go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

Now, our guest today is an international journalist. He is also a news editor and foreign media analyst. As an American foreign correspondent, he has reported from 30 countries over a span of 25 years. Since 2015, he has also been based in Beijing, working on global communication strategy, as well as being a visiting professor of international journalism, teaching at many of the top universities across the country. And in the most recent years, he has also worked at the China Global Television Network.

Through his work and travels as a journalist, he has also been an advocate for environmental protection, food waste control, and HIV prevention. Now, this episode was not recorded at our studio like we normally do, and that's because our guest is in America, specifically the great state of New Jersey. And due to the international travel bans, he is unable to return to China for now.

So we decided to do a long distance podcast using Zoom. This was my first time using Zoom and recording a podcast like this. So please forgive the audio quality. It's not as good as we usually would like to have it, but it was a great conversation. We lost track of time. We talked about some current events, politics, media, journalistic integrity, and the challenges today of global communication. So without further ado, I've always wanted to say this. Please welcome Michael Jordan.

Yeah, we found out we had the Jersey connection very early on when we started chatting. That's right. So you're stuck there. How long have you been stuck in Jersey right now? Well, I don't want to use the word stuck, but I mean, you are kind of stuck in Jersey, right?

In some ways, it's a state of mind, being stuck or being free. You know, what was interesting, a little irony here, is I've been living in Beijing for nearly five years. I first moved there in August 2015.

And up until February 23rd, I was there in Beijing working full time and living with my eldest child, my son, now who just turned 18. And there was the outbreak of the epidemic in Wuhan and Hubei province around January 20th, 21st or so, really started to go wild.

And, fortunately, my son had left the country. It was Chinese New Year and had gone to visit his mother and two younger siblings. My two younger children who were living in China now are in Turkey, in Istanbul, Turkey. Oh, okay.

her job for her career. They followed her there. And so he had just flown out when, when the proverbial shit hit the fan. Oh yeah. Go ahead. We curse all the time on the show. Well, especially for, for some of your English learners who may be tuning in when the shit hit the fan, when things are crazy and in China. And so I was there working for, for state television, not for CCTV specifically, but for China global television network and,

And we were all being quarantined under lockdown in Beijing as we saw the situation getting worse and worse. And so I was in Beijing for the first five weeks of the epidemic when finally, really, the pressure became too great, not because of the epidemic per se in China,

Because I was monitoring every day. I was living in Chaoyang District. And so every day, checking the number of cases in Beijing in general and in Chaoyang District specifically. It was climbing by one, two, three, five, that sort of thing. And I thought, wow, it's a district of some two million people. It still seems like a drop in the bucket.

But really, pressure from my family, from my elderly parents, my sister and brother-in-law, who are both doctors. And if you remember, the U.S. Embassy had evacuated Americans from Wuhan. And that's when the flights began to shut down. And so my family was very concerned that now that I was there alone, that I would be stranded, let's say, all alone. And who knew?

who knew how bad it would get in China, that sort of thing. So finally, after five weeks, I decided to leave China

fleeing, I thought fleeing to New York and at the airport, at John F. Kennedy Airport, JFK, they took me into a room and they tested me and all that, my fever, my temperature. And then they recommended that I self-quarantine for two weeks. They didn't force me to, they recommended it.

And if I do go outside, I should avoid crowds, blah, blah, blah. And so I did that in my, my parents have an apartment in New York. So I was there alone for two weeks, only went out a couple of times into central park, just to enjoy a little bit of fresh air and freedom. And after two weeks of self quarantine, I enjoyed one week of freedom walking around the city. And by that weekend,

I developed a cough and a fever and body aches. And lo and behold, on March 16th, I tested positive for COVID-19. Oh, wow.

Yeah, meaning that I think I survived five weeks of the epidemic in China, only to fly back to what we didn't know yet, we didn't realize yet, was America's Wuhan, New York City, and northern New Jersey. And even to this day, the numbers are staggering. I mean, 30,000 people have died in New York, and 12,000, 13,000 have died in northern New Jersey. I mean, those are...

triple that's tripled the number in china overall how many just in those states it's in northern new jersey yeah 12 000 it says triple china's number officially so so that's one of the cute ironies of my little journey over the past few months that i survived the epidemic in china only to become i believe infected in new york city at some point so it was a

So you tested negative in China before you left? Or did you get tested at all? Yeah, I was never tested in China. All I did was what everyone else was.

was experiencing, which is in my apartment building, our apartment complex. They narrowed the four entrances down to one and made sure that all residents were funneled through the one entrance where we had a badge to prove that we lived there. And then they were taking our temperature either by pointing at our forehead or at our wrist. And so all I knew was that I never had a temperature.

And as we know, you could be infected but asymptomatic. And so I was never tested there. But who knows, right? Who knows that we could have all been exposed. Some of us reacted. Some of us didn't react to the virus. How long after you got back to the States did you feel the symptoms? Because the incubation period is pretty short, right? Usually when you get it, you start feeling symptoms rather quickly.

It's one of the enduring mysteries, really, you know, that, of course, they say, oh, maybe two week incubation period. But who knows? Who knows? I mean, so much about the virus is not known that it could be that I was infected.

infected in China, but that it was a longer lasting incubation than the experts know. Right. And it could have just began to I could have just begun to show symptoms some weeks later or or there in in New York during the one week I was walking around freely. I could have been hit by a viral load, someone coughing and me walking through the droplets and then into my mouth or eyes or nose. Who knows?

That was about a week after you got to New York? That was now three weeks, right? Because two weeks I was in self-quarantine. Oh, it was two weeks in self-quarantine. The third week. So after the third week, back in New York, that's when you started feeling the symptoms? That's right. What were the symptoms like? Because you're actually one of only two people that I actually know that got infected.

And the other one is also in the States, Los Angeles.

Yeah, you know, I feel very fortunate because... I'm sorry about that, my throat. This is not a symptom. I hope you're feeling better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, my symptoms in retrospect were very mild. I mean, I had a mild cough briefly. My temperature never went above 101.8, which would be...

37 or so, 38, never went above. You hear the horror stories of people being taken to the hospital, put on the respirators and tubes down their throats and all that.

I never had that. I never even really had shortness of breath, anything like that. So I could only conclude that I was hit by the difference between a large viral load or a small viral load. I was probably hit by a very small viral load or that there's been talk of

different strains of the virus. Maybe I was hit with a mild strain of the virus. Whatever it was, whatever it was, it lasted about three days. And after three, four days, I didn't feel any more symptoms except for one, one symptom I continue to feel actually, which is I haven't fully recovered my sense of smell, in fact, which is

Really unfortunate. It sounds like not such a big deal. You can't taste any food now, huh? That's right. It tastes like cardboard.

I can taste, but it has to be like a heavy-handed taste. Like sometimes something is too salty or something is too sweet, but I'm missing out on the nuances, the subtleties of flavor and smell. I was toasting something the other day, maybe a bagel or something like that. I forget what it was. And my father said, something's burning. And I was like, oh, really?

I couldn't smell it, which is, of course, a little dangerous. It is, yeah. And so I haven't fully regained that sense of smell. But I did recently test positive for the antibodies.

which is very encouraging that now I have a degree of immunity and that should anyone in my family need the antibodies, well, at least I have it. So that's kind of empowering to feel like I can now make a difference in the lives of others potentially, if need be. Because, of course, we're not nearly out of the situation for sure, I think, a second wave.

will strike us soon and I just hope it's not going to be worse than the first. Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you about because, I mean, like what's the vibe over there right now? I mean, you're on the East Coast. Obviously, you know, we see in the news every day what's going on in the U.S., but you're in Jersey right now. You're on the East Coast. What's the vibe there in the context of,

Everything that's going on with the protests, with the Black Lives Matter movement, and meanwhile, all within the backdrop of this pandemic that's still going on there. And like you said, people are talking about the second wave now. I just got a text earlier this morning from my friend in L.A.,

And he was very frustrated. He texted me out of the blue, just out of frustration. And he's like, no one gives a fuck now. Everyone's just going out. It's almost like they've completely forgotten about the virus. And they're just going out, no social distancing, no nothing. And he's getting very frustrated by that fact.

So what's your experience over there on the East Coast? That's a really good question because I do tend to think about these things a lot. When I was in China a couple months, a few months ago now, I was becoming quite, I think, understandably paranoid and neurotic and concerned about becoming infected.

And I wrote about this. I wrote an essay about what I called rational alarmism. You know, I'm trying to keep my cool, not overreact, but being justifiably alarmed by what was going on around me. So I tend to think about these things a lot. And now now I can see.

several different trends here. People are exhausted by being inside and then social distancing. And I think for many people, although we, of course, I mean, we are up to 110,000 people dead reportedly, according to the numbers being compiled, 110,000 people dead. I just learned that my best friend from high school here in New Jersey

that his elderly father died from COVID. This was just a few days ago. And he, for me, put a human face on the whole epidemic that now finally I know someone directly, not only who's been infected, but even died from it. And just a terrible trauma of my friend not being able to say goodbye to his father directly, because of course he would have been by his bedside in the hospital, instead saying goodbye to him through an iPad

How old was his father? He was 93 years old. Okay, now, of course, he lived a long, full life. He was a psychology professor and two kids, 10 grandchildren. I mean, no doubt a full life, but still...

what what really got to me was the indignity you know to not be able to die a dignified death and even to be buried in a dignified way and a memorial service and all that and you just hear that story repeating over and over and over again that said that said here we are now uh now i'm i've been uh sheltering with my parents

in their suburban apartment, okay, in northern New Jersey. They are 78 and 79 years old. I'm looking out the window right now, and there's a fellow, looks like he's from Latin America, who's now cutting the grass and doing the weeding and all that. And it's a quiet, sleepy suburb of New York City. And I just told, I mentioned to my father the other day, I've been out here now for three months.

And I said, have you heard once any ambulance screaming through the neighborhood? Have you seen any neighbors being rushed on a stretcher, you know, into an ambulance and all that? You know, meaning that if it were palpable, you know, that, oh, this disease and death is all around us. We don't live near a hospital. Okay. And when I go out,

Typically, it's to walk around this quiet, sleepy neighborhood. It's to go to a supermarket where people are wearing masks nowadays, finally, or to the pharmacy to pick up medications for my parents.

But we're not really palpably feeling the disease and death, except that my sister is a doctor. And she and her husband, my brother-in-law, have a private practice. And they say they've lost six patients, which it's a family practice. They're treating entire generations of families, like grandparents, parents, and kids. And so they've lost, actually not just been hospitalized, but lost six patients so far.

And so just her one small practice. And so it's definitely around us everywhere, but because we don't feel it,

directly now people are are easing up for sure for sure and it's it's somehow psychological reaction to to be exhausted by it and feeling like now we're seeing numbers where it is declining and now i understand why the second wave would strike because you're getting closer and closer to neighbors or friends or family uh sometimes you're getting a little it's easy to forget

The need to continue to social distance, that sort of thing. And plus, Justin, I got to mention the fact that the role that our president has played an absolutely destructive role.

in the whole response on really a criminally negligent role that he, President Trump, and the Trump administration, and all his lackeys, his henchmen, and all that have, and within Fox News, within their media-friendly organizations, have really planted the seed

in the minds of so many Americans that it's not as bad or, you know, or that it is somehow similar to the flu. And well, I mean, he himself has only been caught once wearing a mask. He insists on not wearing a mask. He's a fake tough guy acting like I don't need it because I'm so healthy and maybe only the weak won't survive kind of thing. And so for sure, he's done enormous damage to, I think, even the national psyche, right?

I mean, if he really led by example and, you know, on a regular basis told us to beware, it's still out there. Take care of your parents. Take care of your aunts and uncles and all that, then people would. Instead, it's been absolutely undermining these efforts. And so I have no doubt, no doubt that we'll be struck by a second wave because, you know, you can see it with demonstrations. Going back to your original question,

That's with the with the protests and the demonstrations, you know, like people are in some cases marching and protesting at some respectful safe distance. In other cases, oh, they want to be heard. They pull down the mask. They're shouting in a microphone or megaphone or or in a crowd. And of course,

I'm visualizing droplets everywhere, right? Spraying droplets all around. And so you lose your mind for moments that, oh, yeah, there is still an epidemic all amongst us. And we need to be smart about this. Instead, you know, step by step, people are becoming more and more lax and relaxed. It's so tough, though, right? Because...

Like, yeah, I think people are definitely getting distracted from the fact that there is a virus going on because of the protests. And, you know, but, you know, it's so tough because it's not like the protests are just some...

some, you know, some kind of trivial thing, you know, I mean, there's a, there's a real kind of, it feels like there's a real wave of movement going on right now over there in terms of, you know, social, you know, like injustices and systemic racism and all those things. So it's like, it's like, how do you, how do you weigh like what the priorities are in, in that kind of context? And, and,

I mean, I guess everyone's health is number one. I mean, that probably goes without saying. But I'm just saying, like, I guess it's understandable how people are getting distracted by the protests. But yeah, it's going to be a very dangerous thing. And it's just like the country is so divided right now. Like, I think that's the narrative I get sitting here in Shanghai. But you having been back in the United States, do you feel that division? Is that something that's...

Is there that tension sitting there? Does it really exist? Well, a couple of things. Just to refer to your first point before we get to the divisions. One thing I do feel, and I sensed this early on in the protests and the demonstrations. Of course, initially, it was almost exclusively a reaction to

that black American, George Floyd, being murdered there on video, in plain sight. And just the horror for us as white Americans, especially for blacks, I can't even imagine the trauma for them since they've seen it and heard it for years and years and years. It's their own lives, but from their parents and grandparents and all that. So,

So initially, for sure, it was just this outpouring of emotion and rage and all that. All of it justified, I think,

But then I could see that it was morphing into two things, you know, like psychological reaction to us being pent up like caged animals for a couple months as well, letting loose. But also, really, I think it's related to the whole Trumpism of the past three and a half years of his presidency. There's been so much anger.

In this country. I mean, look, America, ever since he was elected and took office, it's been a rough division of 40 percent, 60 percent, 40 percent love him for some reason, 60 percent hate him. There's almost no middle ground. And just one from from them, one offensive line.

Policy and action after another that then I could see that that it was also turning into really anti-government, anti-Trump sort of rage, anti-establishment, anti-authoritarian.

And like I said, it's almost it's almost like a perfect storm of emotions. You know, you have the underlying racism and pent up rage. Then the Trump administration exacerbating all of that. You know, all he does is is divide in hopes of, you know, the sick idea of divide and conquer.

Instead of being a unifying force, which he should be as president of the United States, as his constitutional duty to unite the American people, he takes the opposite tack because of his personality disorders.

And, and, and so that 60, 40 break that. And then on top of that, right, the epidemic. And then the, the straw that broke the camel's back is to have that murder being in plain view. You couldn't write or create a more explosive concoction of events. I mean, if you were really, if you were to write like a script to a movie, like, like you would write you, this is what you would write. You know, it's crazy what's playing out right now. You're absolutely right. I mean, the timing of it all. Yeah.

It's like a match, right? A match has been struck and how could you ignite America? You were asking about that, that division. Do I feel it? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know,

Now it's clear in American families and American friendships that it's a with us or against us. You can't have, you cannot have civil conversations now with people, with Americans with whom you disagree. It's no longer, it's interesting because Justin, my mom said a week ago, my mother is 78 years old. And she said, you know, what's interesting is Michael, when you were younger, you

When I was younger, I didn't follow politics so closely as I am now. OK, like under Reagan, you know, Carter, then Reagan and Clinton or the Bushes and Clinton, blah, blah, blah. And she said, politics, politics, politics. And I said, you know, what I see, what's interesting about this is that there was a time when politics meant politics.

You're on the left, you're on the right. Here's what you think regarding education or military or immigration or taxes or healthcare. You thought, oh, we have policy differences. You think they should go in a more conservative direction. I think in a more liberal direction, but we disagree politically. Oh, well, okay. And other people could say, I'm not interested in that sort of, in politics. I'm just going to live my life. That politics bores me. And now I realize that,

It's not about politics. It's absolutely about your value system, about everyone's sense of right and wrong. You know, that if in immigration, the Trumps are locking up Latin American children, separating them from their parents and their children, that's not policy. That's are you humane or inhumane? And then if you have a friend or a neighbor or a family member who says, oh, I think it's good. I think it's fine. It's like, what the hell?

What kind of person are you? It's not, are you a conservative or liberal Republican Democrat? It's like, how could you turn a blind eye to such gross injustices, right? And so it really is no longer about politics. It's, you know, you thinking, I never knew you were that kind of person.

Right. And I'm not saying I'm above that. I'm not above that because, yes, it disgusts me when I have friends who who honestly, I would have difficulty stomaching anyone right now who is pro Trump, who supports Trump or says that they were going to vote for Trump. Well, there's a lot of them out there. There's a lot of them out there. I know. I know a few. Do you think the Trump base is growing, is getting stronger? No, no, I think.

Look, I don't know who within your circles to whom you're referring to. I know that

I know there are some Chinese Americans or more recent Chinese immigrants to America who support Trump and his tough stance in some ways. That's maybe a separate topic. But what I see is thanks to Fox News, the Fox News channel, which is the most popular, unfortunately, the most popular cable news channel in America.

The Trump administration has been effectively been able to brainwash, really brainwashing 40 percent of American society in broad daylight, basically. I mean, I have experience in having lived in post dictatorial societies and societies

current one state systems, that sort of thing. I won't say much more in that regard. Where there was one source of media, one source of information, and it was heavily controlled. Here in America,

Where we're so proud of the fact that we have such freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of diversity of voices and opinions and all that. To see how 40% of America, let's say, would watch Fox News only. Okay? I'm generalizing. Or how anyone could say, you can't believe anything you read in the New York Times. Okay? Or Washington Post, which are...

They're not flawless, they're not perfect, but are no doubt among the best newspapers in the world overall. And I'm speaking as a colleague, as a fellow American journalist.

For any American, whenever I hear someone say that, I'm like, well, this person is cuckoo. They are too far gone. They are effectively brainwashed. And I've written in the past about cults, like the Church of Scientology. I wrote a series a long time ago. And what I think is needed in this country, unfortunately, is like cult deprogramming. Once Trump was kicked out of office in November,

You know, it's like, what do we do about the 40% who have been drinking the Kool-Aid, have been intoxicated by his ugly rhetoric and to have it reinforced on a daily basis, drumbeat, drumbeat, pounding away Fox News and other voices on that side.

You know, those divisions are now so deep, so deep that it seems almost impossible to heal. Do you feel like that applies to all media? I mean, we chatted earlier on.

briefly about the idea of like being objective and that no one can truly be objective. Right. So no matter what kind of, what side of the aisle you're on, whether you're pro Trump or anti Trump, you're in this party or that party. I mean, isn't like what in your eyes, like what is the role? Well, not the role, but what is the current state of media and all media, you know, not just Fox news, Fox news, but across the spectrum of,

in terms of you feel like their role in society now. The way I see it is, and I've said this in previous episodes several times, I feel like media

is the strongest weapon that any country or nation can have. You know, it really, like you say, it's brainwashing the minds of its people, of its population, to believe certain narratives. And it's much easier to get things done as a nation when you have a population that believes in a certain story, believes in a certain narrative, believes in a certain perspective. Then you have their support, and it's much easier to get a lot of things done and to motivate people.

So I guess my question is, do you feel all media is trying to brainwash their viewers one way or the other? Well, I'm glad you asked me because I wouldn't want your listeners to...

to think that I'm talking about all media and have this brainwashing effect. I mean, it takes a certain unique mindset to become brainwashed per se, okay? And for me, a key dividing line is our critical thinking skills, you know, a certain degree of skepticism and questioning of, well,

Who is presenting this information and how credible or believable are they as a source or what they're referring to? How transparently are they presenting their evidence? Are they presenting any evidence at all? I mean, again, that's what I mean, like with Fox News, that the idea that many of these viewers are.

are choosing willfully choosing to only listen to one source of information and that that source of information willfully is not providing evidence okay uh and and then to to also be of the mindset that you're not asking or demanding evidence right that you're saying hey you

The president said this. Did you provide evidence? No. Why do I need evidence? I trust him. You're just taking it at face value and be like, okay, that's what it is. And that's what I call sheep-like. You know, I talk to my students, my Chinese journalism students all the time about following blindly as sheep. No, our audience is a different audience. Our audience, when we're producing stories from China, about China, that sort of thing,

where we're producing those stories for a more critical thinking audience, smart, curious, but critical thinking audience that's skeptical. And if they're learning something about China, for example, they have a higher standard. They're not just going to

be following blindly. I mean, I'm talking about if they're reading New York Times or Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, what have you. Now, I know some of your viewers will say, whoa, whoa, whoa, but there is bias and there is unfairness. And that, I have learned, is true. I have detected some serious strains of bias within Western media, Western media coverage of China.

But generally, they are obliged and adhere to the principle of supporting whatever they say with evidence. Okay? The evidence may be skewed. It may be cherry-picking certain evidence. But it's not just blanket statements without evidence. Okay? Mm-hmm.

And, yeah, I believe really very passionately about the role of media in any healthy society, but that it can be a force for good, a force for evil, for sure, for sure. And that it needs to be...

I certainly believe that the better informed the citizenry is, the better decisions they will make. And that's why the Trump administration is intentionally trying to cloud the information that comes out so that their supporters are more confused. And then they just go with their guts, their emotions rather than rational decisions.

decisions, you know, that sort of thing. And so he wants to make us hate, wants to make us angry, especially toward China and the Chinese people, for sure. Yeah. Well, do you think like to progressive news channels, the more progressive news publications, I mean, do you feel they're kind of doing the same thing though for their listener base? I mean, like you've talked about like this sheep-like mentality, right?

But I feel like maybe the same applies to some of like the ultra progressive, very liberal minded people, although maybe they are landing on the right side of history, let's say, or morally they might be on the right side. But nonetheless, you know, a lot of them are not necessarily maybe thinking for themselves and just going with the kind of the popular movement. Right. Well, saying things that are very safe to say, non-controversial as well.

That's a good question because even here in my home with my parents, we watch quite a bit of MSNBC, which is seen as maybe some would say Fox News of the left, let's say. But there's really an important difference, which is as I'm watching MSNBC here,

I know that they are much, much more frequently providing evidence to support whatever they say, whatever argument they make or whatever point they're making. They're often showing legal documents or research holding it up and they're saying, according to this source, according to that source. OK, I mean, but for the other side, for the other side, when let's say Mike Pompeo,

says that there's lots of evidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of this virus. Oh, God, yeah. Right, and then provides zero evidence, okay? And with a straight face on camera will say, well, you know, that Wuhan market where it began is just a few miles away from that Wuhan Institute of Virology. So there you go.

But what's crazy about that is all the American scientists who are studying the virus and most all the American like medical professionals, not the politicians, but the scientists and medical professionals in America have unanimously already come out and said that this is not a manmade virus. Right. You know, they've stated that multiple times, but it feels like the politicians are kind of like ignoring that.

And that message isn't really getting out there. And they're always bringing up, you know, kind of, you know, they're not saying it directly, but they're saying, oh, we're looking into the Wuhan labs. We're looking into the possibility of this. So they're kind of like feeding that narrative. Like there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Well,

You know, they themselves want their viewers to believe their conspiracies, you know, and because they know, they know if you in your personal life are convinced about a certain point of view, then you and you feel so confident you would provide evidence to back that up. Showing evidence is a sign of confidence.

If you lack that kind of confidence, you'll say, trust me, believe me. OK, and if you have sheep like followers, they'll nod their head and say, I do trust you. In this situation, unfortunately, unfortunately, I mean, it's it's a complex situation here in the U.S. where somehow they're just not being held accountable.

Okay. They're allowed to get away with it. You give, we say you give an inch, they take a mile. Okay. So you keep allowing them to say more things and the Republicans in the Senate, for example, right. Or in the department of the justice department will allow them.

are allowing them to keep utter and spew more and more lies. No one's holding them accountable, saying this is unacceptable. Fox News embraces it, regurgitates it. And so that's one of the major problems here is the lack of accountability, the impunity for allowing these things. And then you see, not surprisingly, things get worse and worse and worse. I have three children. If you allow one lie...

to go without any sort of reprimand, right, or criticism, then a child learns, hey, that was an easy way to get out of my little dilemma. They'll tell a second one and a third one. And all of a sudden you have a compulsive little liar who's lying pace. And so that's why you have, you know, that Pompeo or Trump or any of the others, they are preaching to their 40% base, that brainwashed.

They know what their base wants to hear. And so they're going to keep feeding them and tailoring their, their discussion or their news, if you want to call it to that base. And like what already knowing like what they want to hear, what the narrative they want to hear is.

Instead of trying to objectively report the facts. But like...

That, oh, you know, they are part of the broader conspiracy of the media, of the Democrats, the liberals, the deep state. Everyone else is against us. Trust us. Trust us. It really is a very disturbing but effective cult of personality going on in this country and in broad daylight. I like that terminology, cult, because it really is like I feel like

That's where the world is headed. Like with, you know, everyone is so tribal these days. Like you alluded to that earlier, like this, you know, either on my side or you're on their side, you know, it's either this side or that side, this party, that party, you know, this stance, that stance, and everyone wants to take, pick their sides, you

everything reverts back to tribalism and everyone is so divided. And that brings me to kind of say like, to ask, you know, how much effort, because you've worked, you worked in journalism for so long, you've, you've seen kind of like the behind the scenes of how that kind of machine works. You know, how much, how much effort is there by these media outlets to, to,

to try to be objective as they can, as objective as they can. Because I believe every media outlet, no matter which country, no matter what side you're on, they're all trying to tell a story, right? I mean, at the end of the day, they're all owned by some sort of interest, whether it's a private interest or a national interest or a corporate interest. So how much effort is there behind the scenes to really be objective about what they're reporting that you've seen?

Oh, look, that's a good question. It depends on your definition of objective. Of course, what is objective? Well, as objective as they can be, you know. Yeah. You know, look, I've worked for some major media organizations writing for

I wrote for, as a freelancer, I wrote for Christian Science Monitor newspaper, for Foreign Policy magazine, or for the news agency AFP, Agence France-Presse. And I've certainly met plenty of colleagues out in the field.

Beijing, Shanghai, and just around the world. And I don't believe, and this is really important, I don't believe, I personally have never been told that, let's say, my story, any story that I produced was too positive or too favorable to some country, and it doesn't fit our narrative. Okay? It doesn't, and even, you know, some of your listeners, you know,

You may say, oh, but look how biased, let's say, the New York Times is toward China, let's say. Okay. I don't believe that the New York Times correspondent, when he or she is proposing stories to their editor back in New York or Washington or where have you,

is that when they produce a story that their editor is then saying, no, no, no, we need to hammer away at China. You know, we've got this narrative going. And what you're proposing is undermining that. You don't think that's going on at all? I really don't believe that, okay, that that sort of thing is happening. But what could be more subtle, what could be more subtle,

For example, in working for CGTN, China Global Television Network, I was also doing quite a bit of media analysis, analyzing Western media, especially American media, let's say, and reading, let's say, New York Times or the news agencies over a period of time and their coverage. And I think partly...

partly i mean it's it's it's a complex issue to various forms of of bias but one could be a journalistic tendency to focus on the negative okay focusing on it is easier i mean look many that's human nature right you're gonna get more clicks you're gonna get more views if you publish something negative versus positive i feel

Unfortunately. Yes, but also to be fair, to be fair, you know, when I think about why I became a journalist,

all those years ago and why many others do, there's a certain idealism, even altruism, which is to give voice to the voiceless, to empower the powerless, to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, okay? Is to defend the little guy against the big guy, okay? Then you tend to see, hey, there's a problem. I'm going to write about that problem. I'm going to highlight, spotlight, illuminate,

these problems, these challenges. And guess what? That becomes a little too easy because let's say if you're living in a place like China, China, like any other country, of course, has serious challenges that it faces on a daily basis. There's structural or societal challenges. But what doesn't happen very often is for that correspondent to take a step back and say, wait, wait, wait, wait. If I look at the stories I've written, they've been pretty much negative, negative, negative.

Are there only negative trends going on in this country? Is that really all I see around me? Is there nothing positive going on in China, for example? Okay, nothing worth highlighting?

And the example I often give, let's say it would be with air pollution. Okay. It'd be very easy to hammer away at air pollution and environmental protection, all that over the years. Right. And of course, that story tends to make China look bad, of course, right. Not doing enough. Or then you could say, oh, step by step, things are improving. Right. Right.

But then I would ask the question, well, even to you, you live in Shanghai. Do the Chinese people care about environmental protection and air quality? And you would say, well, actually, of course. I have friends and family or I have friends who have kids that are concerned about their kids running around in a playground on a high pollution day or they don't have quality air filters like I do in my apartment or whatever it may be.

And I said, okay, so yes, Chinese people care. Are they doing anything about it? Is there any evidence to support that? And guess what?

Guess what? Yes, there is evidence. There are more and more NGOs, Chinese environmental NGOs. There are more and more Chinese getting involved and joining NGOs, whether it's university students doing things to turn off the lights or to encourage a greener way of living or environmental activists to protecting rivers and lakes and wildlife and that sort of thing. And so...

It is strange, but sometimes we have to force ourselves to look for positive trends within a society, especially in a country like China, which matters on every level globally. And China ain't going anywhere.

Right. It's only becoming stronger, more influential that in both directions, you know, China needs to learn more about the world, but the world needs to learn more about China. And China needs to do a better job of explaining itself to the world as well. I mean, that's part of the equation, too, is going back to your question, just what also compounds things. And I've spoken a lot to my Chinese colleagues about this.

is unfortunately, and you may notice this as well, sometimes when Chinese officials, Chinese authorities speak, okay, not often enough do they support what they say with evidence, okay? They say, for example, the Belt and Road Initiative is our gift to humanity, right? It's to promote peace and prosperity around the world, okay? And for some people in the audience, that would be fine. Wow, that sounds great, right?

Other people may stroke their chin and say, wait, wait, wait. How do we know that? It's in your self-interest to say something like that. Can you prove it to us? Let's see some evidence to prove that you're really now promoting or now you're achieving peace and prosperity in Africa, in South Asia, wherever it might be. And so the Chinese themselves, it's one thing, again, if you're dealing with sheep-like audiences,

that will just happily consume whatever you're feeding them versus that smart, curious, but skeptical audience which demands evidence to be persuaded. And so this is something I talk about with my Chinese journalism colleagues or those in Chinese communications.

is your target audience expects that and you need to, if you're truly confident about having the evidence, you will make a conscious effort to always provide evidence to back up whatever you say, credible evidence, transparent evidence.

Right. That sort of thing. And that's how I'm not saying you would win over the New York Times, but you would help to overcome some of their skepticism about, you know, the Chinese tend to not be so transparent with their with their facts and evidence and that sort of thing. OK. And so it builds up a certain tension that that deep suspicion of even with, you know, even with Chinese facts and figures today regarding infections. Right.

Right. COVID infections and deaths. Right. I mean, sorry, I'm going on and on now. But you know where China I just checked this morning. Do you know where China now ranks? According to Johns Hopkins University, which is becoming basically the leading authority for the facts and figures regarding COVID around the world. Do you know where China ranks right now on the global list of infections? No. No.

Where? Of course, it started there. Right. And so I was there day by day seeing these numbers, you know, one, two, three thousand new cases a day climbing up to 80,000. My jaw was dropping like maybe I should get the hell out. You know that China now ranks 18th, 18th on the global list of infections. One by one, China's numbers have not budged.

OK, which either means that they truly were so effective at clamping down and knocking out this disease, which I believe in large part they did.

But it's just or or are the numbers off a bit. OK. And I've heard I heard the numbers while I was there. Maybe it's 10 times as large, 10 times as large. But you have countries like Bangladesh and Qatar about to pass China on the list. How can it be possible that a virus which is ravaging

ravaging especially the Western world but but now many other countries around or ravaging these societies still is only only 80,000 84,000 infections in China right and so that only feeds a certain suspicion which is how can that be possible these numbers

Okay? You see what I mean? I'm not even saying that the numbers are off. All I'm saying is that if there's a track record of a lack of transparency or evidence being provided, it just feeds into that suspicion and even conspiracy-minded, you know, like right now with me, with the Trump administration. They have a track record of secrecy, of lack of transparency and all that. So whenever they say something, come

My reflex is not to believe them. Now, I'm absolutely unfair toward them because they've just lied too many times too consistently that now the onus is on them to prove that they're not lying.

Yeah, I think that reflex you're referring to, yeah, very much applies to the narrative on China. And going kind of going back to what you were saying about the numbers and stuff like that. You know, I feel like for a lot of people in the West, whenever there's something new, some news that comes out of China that.

looks kindly on China or that shows China in sort of a positive light or that they could be doing something right, automatically the knee-jerk reaction reflex is, oh, they're not telling you the truth. Oh, they're hiding something. Oh, the numbers are completely off. You know, oh, they're just telling you that, you know, they're brainwashing the Chinese people. And that's like the reaction where it's like there's no longer any sort of accepting of that

of that discussion anymore. It's like they closed their ears off to anything that could be positive about China and just lump it all with conspiracy theories, the government is only telling you what they want, blah, blah, blah.

And I think that goes back to something you were talking about before we started this podcast that I really like this term you use. You're like, you want to be like the human bridge, right? The human bridge, you want to be able to explain China to the world and vice versa. You want to be able to explain the international community to China. And you were talking about the challenges that China has in its global communications.

I just feel China doesn't really, it's really easy to attack China. It's really easy to come up with a lot of conspiracy theories about China because I just don't feel, I don't feel China really fights back and really defends itself in terms of like media and communications as much. So I just feel like it's almost just kind of like a one-sided discussion. You're only really hearing one voice. So do you feel, what kind of measures do you see going forward that China needs to make or is making

in terms of improving its global communications and, for lack of a better word, I guess, explaining itself to the international community to kind of shed light on a lot of things that they're doing? Well, in some ways it's simple. In some ways it's more complex because some of these issues

are related to cross-cultural understanding. Here I am not just a journalist, but also communications consultant, and even specifically global communications slash cross-cultural communications. And not that I'm looking for more work opportunities, but frankly, the Chinese also need a few more Western colleagues to assist them

With helping to explain the audience. I mean, it all starts with, it all starts with who exactly is your target audience. Okay. And what's your understanding about who that audience is, why they're your audience, whether they would be open to your message or not. Why, why not? What are the ways in which you could be more effective and persuasive in hitting that target audience? Right. And so, um,

So you need, I do see a need, and I saw the benefits from my perspective of, let's say, being at China Global Television Network in terms of even working with colleagues there, working with the host of the show, Liu Xin. I was working side by side with him.

with her on her opinion show often and just helping to explain for example the American audience or the the Fox News audience Okay, because when when we're talking about understanding the audience It's also about empathy and EQ imagine yourself in the shoes of that audience Okay, so even as you're talking I'm listening to you. I'm realizing that

That then what also upsets the Chinese very much is there's this dynamic that then they say something to the West. The West is suspicious, doesn't believe. Right. And the Chinese then, of course, would take great offense to not being believed. Are you calling us liars? Are you? And then it and then the emotions on both sides start to rage and you forget.

you know, that it does start with cross-cultural understanding and empathy and building of trust. So going back to your question, so what can be done? First of all, I think there needs to be, no matter how long a Chinese person has lived in the U.S., let's say, as a high school student, then a university student, then working in the U.S.,

Sure, they can go back to Beijing and to Shanghai and say, let me tell you about the American mentality, the American psyche and all that. Right. But ultimately, it's almost impossible to to achieve what a native of that country can achieve in terms of explaining that culture. Right. And vice versa. OK, of course, you come across Americans who've been in China or studying China for 20, 30, 40 years and they're Chinese people.

their Mandarin may be flawless, right? But can they truly feel what it's like to be Chinese? No, there's a limit, right? So likewise, any American company or organization that truly wants to understand the Chinese should have some human bridge, you know, some Chinese human bridge. Hey, can you really explain the Chinese psyche and mentality and culture to us, right? To bridge that final little gap there, okay? Yeah.

And so to answer your question, yes, on the one hand, we need more of these human bridges to fully understand the cross cultural gaps and then differences and, and, and similarities. It's not all negative, but similarities. And then, uh,

Look, Justin, I often tell colleagues I've identified what I call a spectrum. China's foreign audience. Who is China's foreign audience? And it's a spectrum divided into three. On the left-hand side, you have the anti-China crowd.

Anti-China. For some reason, they dislike or even hate China and the Chinese. OK, for some reason. And nothing positive you say about China will ever penetrate their mindset, will ever change their mind. And guess what? That's OK. We write them off. OK, just like, as you know, in China,

There's an anti-American crowd that for some reason hates America, hates the Americans. Nothing positive you say about America can penetrate their bubble. Well, I feel the anti-China crowd is much larger than the anti-American crowd in China. Okay, okay. When you say that crowd of anti-China that won't hear anything positive, I could be wrong. I don't have any evidence to support this, but...

I feel that that crowd is a very sizable crowd in the United States. Maybe even, you know, half the people, I feel, fall into that category. I think you're right. And I mean, that's another question, which is that the politicians, you know, are intentionally...

I mean, I can get to that point, but I think that now both sides, China will for sure become a major political issue with the elections approaching, that historically many societies need a bogeyman, a bad guy, you know, to target an external threat. You know, for many, the Soviet Union, you know,

Then in the 9-11 period, you know, we had the Islamic fundamentalists, right, and extremist Muslims, et cetera, et cetera. And now with China's growing strength, it's China, right? Very much that China- Especially in this time in America. I mean, I think America and its leaders or its politicians would like nothing more than have some sort of unifying force, unifying threat

that can distract them from everything else that's happening domestically in the United States right now. And that culprit and that scapegoat, that boogeyman, like you said, China falls right into that role. That's right. That's right. Because it's...

you're typically not going after a weak opponent, but a strong opponent and, and, oh, so powerful that they're able to pull the strings behind the scenes and all that. But, but going back to that, that spectrum, because I think it's really important that it's also okay to write them off because if you're going to try to communicate effectively and persuasively, don't waste your breath on that segment of the, of the audience. Okay. Then on the other side is the pro China crowd. Okay.

That for some reason they, and I'm not just talking about Americans or Westerners, but even around the world, whether it's Africa, Southeast Asia, South Asia, wherever it is, that they love China and the Chinese people for some reason, nothing negative. Nothing negative you say to them can burst their bubble, can penetrate and impact them. But then you have the middle category.

the middle cohorts, which I believe is on the fence and can swing either way. Okay. They may be generally open-minded, maybe even decent hearted. They want to understand the reality. They understand that the world is not a black and white place. They understand that China has certain flaws, but certain positive qualities that are driving the, the economy that's reducing dramatically reducing poverty and,

But the only way to influence that middle category is with what I call evidence-based, right? Fact and evidence-based, but also humanized content or even storytelling. Is that whatever you say to that audience must be supported with facts and evidence and even applying a human face to humanize that story, okay? To humanize that reality.

to tell those China stories. So that's what I teach. And what's interesting, Justin, is I had this discussion with some of my Chinese colleagues in Chinese media. And very often,

They tended toward the category on the right, targeting those who already love China or like China and going on with anti-American. Oh, the Americans are doing this. The Americans are doing that. Blah, blah, blah. Or the West is, you know, they're trying to tie us down. They're doing this, doing that. Because they're being cheered. You know, everything they're saying, the crowd's cheering for them. It's just like reward feedback that...

And that goes along with like any leader or any public speaker or any news anchor, I feel. You know, they want that reward feedback. But that's a very bad kind of loop to be in. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would say they're already on your side. Okay.

OK, if you aim for that middle, you know, how to aim for that middle, that's hard work. That's hard work because that means rather than just saying, hey, issue a press release or give a statement or a speech about how wonderful the Belt and Road Initiative is. That means, you know what?

For that middle crowd, we got to work hard to persuade them. We need evidence. OK, we need credible evidence and maybe not just according to the Chinese ministry of this or that, but maybe international organizations or our foreign partners also to and then to present this evidence in a transparent way with a hyperlink in our in our statements or in our reports and all that so that they can.

see firsthand a primary source is proving what we say. And then, Justin, going back to that, then it requires a track record. It can't be one speech, one report. That has to be a consistency of, hey, that source is a credible, reliable source of information. Maybe not always, but at least...

consistently over an entire body of work right that's right that's right yeah I agree Chinese colleagues too that you know what the past is the past if you're talking about effective communication start now with

With, you know, websites that are and invest heavily in these kinds of communicators, these kinds of storytellers who say whatever we're going to say right now, we need to support with facts and evidence. And the Chinese are getting there. I mean, they just issued this white paper on COVID-19 and, you know, documenting the dates. So then we did this, then we did that, blah, blah, blah.

blah, blah, blah, okay? And it is important in such documents to say, and it's not just according to us, but according to, let's say, World Health Organization or according to the Center for Disease Control, because just like, Justin, here's a good example, is very often when we talk about what China has done to dramatically reduce its rate of poverty, its poverty reduction efforts over the past four decades since the great reform and opening up process began,

Very often when I'll mention this or I'll teach my students this, I won't just say according to the Chinese government, China has lifted 800 million or so Chinese out of poverty. I'll say according to the World Bank, according to the United Nations. Okay. So then when you're writing in English, okay, then...

you know first of all you're showing uh more quote-unquote neutral credible sources right saying this and then the chinese government so you're showing hey there's some sync some synchronicity between the the numbers and so it's not just the chinese saying this but others who are agreeing with those numbers and all that and that's how you build that credibility and and step by step step by step but

But in terms of the messaging, Justin, I mean, I see that the Chinese, for better or for worse, are also learning to fight back in a Trumpian way as well. Okay? Are they? Yeah.

I think so. I mean, if you look at some of the trends now with more Chinese officials being on Twitter or some of the statements, like when once the U.S. said, oh, the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source. Don't ask us for evidence. Trust us. We can't reveal our sources or methods. Then guess what? Then the Chinese countered with, oh, yeah, we think it was the U.S. military.

that brought it to China. And did they provide evidence? Did they provide really credible, believable evidence? Hmm...

Not really, but they're learning to play fire with fire. You know, say, hey, you're going to make some wild accusation against us. Sometimes it doesn't pay to take the high road. Got to get down in the mud as well. Do you think that strategy is going to work, though? Like the, you know, fighting fire with fire kind of strategy? Or do you think that's just going to

turn like, like, let's say that middle category of people, that middle cohort, do you think, or do you think that that's just going to turn them off to the idea of listening to, you know, that, that, that's a really good question. That's, that's really a great question because, because yeah, you may, uh, win the battle, but lose the war.

Ultimately. Right. And it is about targeted communications, targeted messaging. Ultimately, that middle cohort is very influential. OK, I mean, that is a certain elite strata of any society in that middle cohort are influential.

U.N. officials are the the the the correspondence for New York Times and Washington Post. You will win them over. But at least they'll they'll nod their head and say, hey, you know what? I know there are certain limits on information, all that. But that was pretty fair. That was pretty, you know, pretty substantiated.

What the Chinese authorities just said, they backed up with evidence. And we're going to see that as not the only source of information, but we're not going to accept that as a credible source of information because they're being more transparent. Right. With with supporting whatever they say with with evidence. You know, and I think that's the best you can hope for. You're not going to get any.

any dramatic conversions, but you want to be seen as more credible and believable with your words. Yeah, that is the first step, right? To build that legitimacy and credibility. I guess to simplify it, the idea is that trust, right? As long as there's a degree of trust. I might not agree with what you're saying, but I trust that you're coming from a place of

of where you're at least trying to present the facts, at least you're trying to present evidence to back up what you're saying, you know, and there's that legitimacy there, I guess. That's right. I mean, that's really, when you think about that's the eternal challenge in all of communications, which is how do you persuade someone of anything?

OK, how do you effectively whether it's your own, you know, your best friend or your your your your family member. Right. You have two very different opinions and you feel angry and exhausted. That's like this is hopeless. Well, how effectively are you trying? Should you write them off as being in that left position?

side of the spectrum category, it's hopeless? Or are they on the right side? Hey, we're in complete harmony and agreement on this point. Or are they in the middle? I'm going to have to work hard to persuade my friend or my relative that what I'm saying is true. How am I going to do that? I'm going to provide them with evidence that

Right. And even a couple anecdotes, a couple stories like like I told you, for example, in my neighborhood. Right. Or, for example, in my family, I'm trying to give some evidence and a bit of storytelling to to bring it to life. As I often say that that for a skeptical mind, for a skeptical, even suspicious mind, the evidence touches the brain.

Okay, starts to persuade. If it's, you know, several examples of credible evidence, they start to nod their head. I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Then humanizing with some human anecdotes can then touch the heart. Okay, and start to persuade someone. So then the two-pronged strategy of how to touch the mind and the heart, that's maybe, I think, the only way to achieve impact, okay, with anything.

is how do you achieve impact? And I learned this in Africa when I was living in Africa and what different organizations were trying to do to reduce HIV among people. How do you convince people to better protect themselves and their societies from HIV? You have to provide evidence that such and such policy works, then to humanize, to show real people who have followed that evidence.

follow that policy or those techniques and that it really works. And then people start to nod their heads. Okay, then I'll start to do X, Y, Z to better protect myself and my family from HIV. It's all about behavioral change. How do you change behaviors? Not to mention attitudes toward China, but even behaviors toward China is monumental. How do you do that?

Yeah. Well, you know, you brought up Africa. It seems like you were doing a lot of good work in Africa. I read obviously HIV with protecting orphans from HIV in Africa. You were also an advocate for gender based protecting people from gender based violence over there. What was that experience like? You know, I mean, obviously, Africa is a huge continent. I mean, there's a lot of different countries, a lot of different cultures, all that.

Um, but what, what was the kind of the sum of your work there if you were to describe it? Uh, well, you know, um,

I didn't even give my background for your audience there, but yes. I can put that in the description. I can introduce you before we do the episode. I usually introduce the guest anyway. No problem. No problem. I mean, look, as an American journalist, and I moved as a young freelancer to Central Europe, to Hungary, then later lived in Slovakia.

Six years in Hungary, five years in Slovakia. And I was reporting from across post-communist, newly democratic Central and Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics of Central Asia. And then had a chance to move to Africa following my wife, who was then my wife, now my

my ex-wife, but following her and her career in international development, we took our kids to Southern Africa, to the tiny African kingdom of Lesotho, high in the mountains of Southern Africa. And it was there, that was the first time I'd actually lived in the developing world.

Where, I mean, yes, I've been in these post-communist, newly democratic states of Central Europe, but they were already more developed than some of these countries, especially Lesotho in southern Africa.

I mean, when I was there, Lesotho was number two, well, first number three, then number two in the world in terms of highest rate of HIV infection. Among the most sexually active population between the ages of 18 and 49, they had 23% HIV rate of infection, which means that basically every family,

was touched by HIV, either mother, father, son or daughter, or at least an uncle, aunt, cousin living in the mountains. So it was all around us. And also it was 40% malnutrition that children, babies were not eating enough and were stunted in their physical and mental development and all those huge problems. And when I moved there,

Following her for her job, I was really, really inspired by many of my Western colleagues there that instead of just producing journals, I felt the need to get involved producing books.

First of all, there was no journalism school there. And I realized that I should focus on health and HIV journalism. So I created some trainings and secured funding from different organizations for various trainings for professional African journalists, but also for African students. The main tribe there are the Basutu. So working with Basutu colleagues and students and trying to do, you know, in my own way,

small but significant way trying to teach exactly what we're talking about, which is how to impact, how to

impact individuals and how to nurture behavioral change to encourage people to learn more about how to better protect themselves and their families, how to reduce the infection rates, how to take better care of their children, especially with such hardship, how to more effectively feed their children, to grow fruit and vegetables, that sort of thing. So I was...

I'm really profoundly touched by my experience in Africa. You know, a lot of well-meaning people, but who then in many ways welcomed fresh ideas, in many ways resisted outside ideas. And, you know, there's that walk in a fine line of how to introduce fresh ideas in a way that will be accepted, right?

Again, it comes down to cross-cultural communication, cross-cultural understanding, meeting those human bridges, earning trust, bringing down the walls of suspicion, proving that your ideas or your policies are beneficial and why there should be that buy-in. I mean, so many of these principles I learned there in Africa and then brought to China.

and applied to my journalism and my journalism slash communications. Yeah, that I'm greatly appreciative of the four years I spent in Africa. And that was between 2011 and 2015. So from Africa, I moved to China. Yeah.

Well, as a journalist, you've lived and immersed yourself in so many different countries. You were a foreign correspondent and journalist in 30 different countries, right? So you're an extremely, you're much more than average, much more above average in terms of, I think, your exposure to different cultures, different countries, right?

especially having to work as a journalist where you're really forced to kind of dig in to cultural and societal issues, right? And getting to know, you know, like boots on the ground, as they say, really getting to know and having a finger on the pulse. How do you think that shaped your kind of worldview now? You know, when you look at things and when you look at the world and when you discuss things,

whether it's political tensions between countries and societal issues. How has your previous experience shaped the way you view the world now? Well, that's a really good question, and it is something I think about quite often. I do feel very fortunate, actually. I feel very fortunate to have lived on four continents before.

And although my memory isn't so sharp, I do somehow, when I teach or when I consult, it is somehow bringing the breadth of that four continental perspective and things that I've learned, things that I've seen, especially commonalities.

and certain differences, like one commonality, even referring to what we discussed earlier, is unfortunately this idea of sheep-like behavior. I've seen in America, I've seen in Europe, I've seen in Africa, I've seen in China, with all due respect, meaning that generally the majority of every society,

I've seen really has very provincial or parochial interests about me, my family, my community, my city, my country. Okay. And the majority of people are not so interested in the rest of the world or international affairs, global affairs. In fact, most people are quite comfortable with, um,

doing as they're told or living a more comfortable life or identifying a leader they trust and saying, that's good enough for me. If they say this and that, then I'll generally follow without those sharp critical thinking skills and questioning why, why, why, and according to whom, and why do you say this based on what, that sort of thing, why this policy or that policy. That I've seen globally, okay? And then this critical thinking approach

uh strata is is more elite you know some people think elite is a negative word but there is a certain uh elite that that has higher standards for how they consume their news and information and and and media and all that you know more skeptically so that's one thing that that i feel like

I feel fortunate because if I'm going to give my opinion, and again, it's just my opinion, my analysis on that. I don't want your audience to think that he thinks he knows the ways of the world. That's based on my experience. At least I feel like I have a certain degree of credibility because, oh, he's lived on four continents. He lived and worked on four continents. On the other hand, Justin, just the other day,

I was talking to my family about our kids, about our children.

and about how our kids have been affected by COVID-19. I have an 18-year-old, and my sister has an 18-year-old, and both of them just really got screwed out of their last semester of high school, meaning their prom, their great celebration, their graduation ceremony. They're all getting screwed out of their first semester of university, which should be a wonderful, memorable time. They're probably all going to be doing it online.

Right. Forget about your first college parties and then making mistakes and all that. They're all going to be at home in their sweatpants under the same roof with their parents and all that and how they're all getting screwed somehow. And I was saying, I said, you know, one one thing I hope is that our kids will gain a greater appreciation for some of the little things.

some of the importance of certain freedoms, the freedom to go outside, the freedom to shake hands, the freedom to put your arm around your friend's shoulder, or even enjoying the movement to be in a classroom, to be studying with your teachers and buddies and all that. Because one thing I've learned

As I often say, in Africa, for example, I learned to appreciate clean water.

Because in Africa, we always had a water filter or bottled water or whatever. There's always a fear of, is this fruit or vegetable washed by tap or filtered water? And will we become sickened by drinking the water? So I learned to appreciate when I come back to the States, drinking freely from the tap. So this is great not to worry about it. Guess what? In China, in China is where I learned to appreciate clean air.

OK, because because Beijing's polluted air does have a serious health impact and even psychological impact on me that it was making me cough and wheeze and sniffle and my eyes tearing. And and then I'd wake up, part the curtains and see what kind of day if I saw a brownish haze, it would affect my mood. Another day of pollution. I have to be indoors. OK. And then guess what? I'd come to the U.S.,

To visit, and I'm not saying American air is perfect. There are lots of issues with pollution here too, but I'd be like a puppy dog sticking my head out the window, helping down fresh air as we drive around. I feel so good not to have to wear a mask and to not have to worry about pollution.

in a dramatic way as possible. So these are important lessons that I learned to appreciate the seeming little things of air and water and all that, that much of the world has to deal with.

But as an American, we say, oh, we're number one. We're the greatest, blah, blah, blah. Why? Because of our freedoms. What do you mean? Show me that you really appreciate what freedoms? Freedom of speech, freedom of expression. Look at the crackdown. Right. And getting back to whites versus blacks. When I see a cop, I don't feel a pang of fear or worry. I do think with that white privilege of, oh, they're there to help.

Right. Or they're there to protect. If I were a black man or if I had a black 18 year old son, OK, wearing a hoodie or something that I would warn him, hey, you better be on your best behavior around the cops and you better not, I don't know, play your music too loudly. Better not talk back. Better drive within the car lanes or whatever. Better be careful and all that because. Right. And so these simple sort of freedoms happen.

It is something I need to talk about with my own kids more to appreciate the little things and the big things, especially during this epidemic. But that's something that I feel like I've benefited from by living on different continents. Well, that's beautiful, man. I mean, that's beautiful. I've said this before, but I feel like I think one of the most important gifts you can give to any young person growing up is...

is world exposure. You know, I was fortunate enough that when I was growing up, I mean, I haven't been to as many countries as you have, but I, you know, I was pretty well traveled growing up. My parents liked to take me to different places. I was fortunate enough and privileged enough to be able to travel like that. So, you know, looking back now, I feel like that's completely shaped the way I think about things, the way I see people, the way

I approach certain discussions and issues. And I think it's had such a profound impact on me in terms of being more exposed. And in a certain way, I don't, I mean, I'm not trying to say I'm more enlightened than anybody, but, you know, a certain open-mindedness to issues and like what you're saying and appreciation. So I just feel like,

travel and exposure is probably the most direct way and probably more effective than any media you can read, anything a journalist can tell you. I think if that person was just to go there and live there and see it and live it and be immersed in that culture themselves, you don't need to explain anything more to them. They will get it. They will know right away.

I agree. I agree. And, and, but, but, you know, the, these key words that, that we were then fortunate, we were privileged, you know, it's like, I didn't, uh, you know, whine and cry and demand that my parents take me traveling or something, right. They did it. And although my sister and I were hitting each other in the back seats or annoying each other, you know, somehow this sort of exposure, uh,

sank sank in you know it really did sink in and and had some some effects and then i hope for the same with my with my own children although uh i mean my my sons who are 18 and 16 my daughter is 11 my sons at age 18 and 16 have already lived on four continents okay already and although each step of the way from slova from new york to slovakia to lesotho to beijing

and now the two younger ones are in istanbul um uh each step of the way we were pretty much living in a bubble you know a foreign a foreigner bubble right uh and uh and unfortunately each step of the way they weren't being encouraged to learn foreign languages in school especially the local language

Although in China, I'm very proud to say that my kids were learning Putonghua every day or learning Mandarin every day. And still, even in Istanbul, my two younger kids now are taking Chinese lessons to reinforce what they're learning. My older son has learned enough Chinese that he really can be our guide. And I said, you know, this will help

be your comparative advantage at university and beyond. He's interested in international business and foreign affairs and that sort of thing. So I'm really hoping that my kids not only feel more comfortable around the world as global citizens,

but also feel open-minded that they have had experience with classmates, with white skin, with black skin, with the whole rainbow. Every shade of color. That's right. And in their own way, they've been able to humanize others. They've had classmates and best friends and been over to their homes and all that. And that's what we need more of is humanizing the other.

you know, not just the evidence, but learning to humanize the other, to lower these bridges. And that's why, that's why, you know, I'm always happy when my Chinese students then study in the U.S. for six months, a year, or a full four-year education. And I would want this for my own kids. I think every kid,

should spend a year abroad somewhere, anywhere. Just go anywhere because you're guaranteed to have your mind pried open to the other and instantly to have a certain worldview to even learn about your own country

more clearly, to see it from the outside and the way it's viewed and to question the way you've been raised, not to turn yourself against your own society, but to see the nuance. Yeah, it's not so black and white. Yeah, there's more of this cross-pollination, right, of people and ideas, right? That's a good way to put it, yeah, cross-pollination. The seeds being planted of all different alternative ways of living and systems, right, and all that, yeah.

You know, so I'll be excited to see for my own kids how they develop and evolve and and, you know, their own attitudes toward racism or xenophobia or or just their own courage to to explore new cultures on their own. Yeah. Like right now, my 18 year old is, although I wanted him to come to the US for university, looks like he's headed to London.

Okay. Now, of course, it's an Anglophone, you know, English speaking country. So it's not that scary for him as a native English speaker, but still he knows no one there, but he's confident enough that it's okay. I'll figure it out. You know, I'll, I'll get by. I'll, you know, get my bearings straight. I won't, I'm sure he won't feel that intimidated and he's comfortable enough in his own skin that he's ready to, you know, settle into a different culture and be open-minded about it. I think, you know, so yeah,

So I think my, and even my 16 year old said, maybe I'll go to school in the Netherlands. It sounds like they have some really good universities there for STEM, for engineering. And I was like, okay, you know, and let's see how it goes. So anyway, Justin, what do you think about STEM? Yeah.

About where we're headed as a society. Do you think that the walls are lowering or more walls are being built? Look, unfortunately, I think more walls are being built at this time. I mean, that's just based off of what I see happening around us.

But I mean, in the long term, I don't know, you know, in the long term, I don't know what's going to happen. But look, I, you know, because my interests selfishly, you know, I talk about, you know, thinking more globally and everything, but selfishly, like my interests and my allegiances really lie between China and the United States, you know? And so I tend to focus on,

Right or wrong, I tend to focus a lot of what I see happening. I tend to frame a lot of what I see happening around the world through that lens, right? Through America and China. And look, I love both countries. That's an important lens for sure. Well, yeah. It's not too narrow a lens. I love both countries. But unfortunately, what I see is this more division between them.

And I see the US agenda very clearly. No matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat, I think there is one unifying thought and idea in America is that China is the enemy. I feel, I mean, not every single person, but the vast majority of people think

I feel believe that to be the case and see China as the threat because whether you're a liberal media outlet or a very conservative one, the narrative is more or less the same, just two different degrees. But it's always painting China as the threat.

And in many ways it is, it is the threat. If you want to frame the word threat or define threat as in competing as a superpower, then yes, it is a threat.

But I feel like a lot of it is being framed where China is maliciously and aggressively coming after you, which I honestly don't see as the case. I feel China is just trying to position their own country and do what is best for their own people. And they have their own issues of sustaining the type of population, 1.4 billion people they have to look out for. So they have to fight for their place in this world as well, just like any other country would.

So I guess to go back and not to get onto a whole like political rant, but I see more walls being put up. I see more tension building up. You know, obviously we see this with the trade wars and everything. I mean, these are all symptoms, right? So, you know, one of the reasons why I love to have people like you on the show and talk to people like you is to try to get a bit of a more global perspective on

on these issues, right? And try to talk about it as objectively as we can. And none of us are completely objective. I mean, I know you believe that as well. So I see a very unstable time ahead. And in these unstable times, I think it's more important than ever that we have these open discussions, that we talk to people, we reach out to people.

who may not share the same thoughts and talk and have a platform to talk. And I've been very vocal on this podcast in criticizing almost media. I feel media in many ways is brainwashing people with certain narratives and

in certain agendas. And so I feel like there should be more scrutiny, more responsibility for journalists. And now obviously you have good journalists out there. I'm not saying all journalists have had this agenda intention, but a lot of the ones that have the loudest voices do have very clear agendas in my mind. So I feel like the journalists and people in the media

are kind of like the key to how we kind of

how we come together, how we prevent anything from boiling over in terms of actual conflict between countries. Because like you say, most of the population are the sheep mentality, are I will listen to my media anchor or news outlet of my choice and basically take what they say for face value.

So I feel the journalists are kind of almost the key to all this in terms of public sentiment. Look, I agree with you. I think a few more points. First of all, in international affairs, there are no angels, no saints. Every country is out there.

Not to name names in this situation, but no one should delude themselves into thinking my country is saintly, is angelic on the international stage. Really, really. And this can be a problem sometimes as you think my country is a force for good. Well, you know what? On the ground, it can be a lot of ugliness, okay? Because more or less every country wants to win in its own way. Every country has its own

self-interest at stake its own self-preservation at stake very rarely does a country and a leader act purely in in the name of altruism or idealism this isn't for us this is for everyone okay so so no one they wouldn't be doing their job as the leader if they were to think that way

That's right. And guess what? Sometimes the foreign media catches on to some of that, those less than idealistic, less than altruistic agendas and how some of the dirty dealings are done. OK, and exposed. OK, I won't say much more than that on that point. But but I think a couple of things going back to what you also said is.

What, especially with the November elections coming up and those among your listeners who care about China and how China plays in the U.S. public and public attitudes, public support and all that.

Yes. Like I said before, you know, the Republicans have latched on to China as a bogeyman, right? As the bad guy. It fits a certain Hollywood-esque narrative of good guys versus bad guys, black hats versus white hats and all that. And the Democrats, while they agree that China is a rising power and a quote-unquote threat in many ways, they also recognize that

that they also need to be, quote, tough on China or else they risk appearing weak on China. Meaning that once the Republicans make that and Trump makes that a key issue, then the option is not to say nothing because then you'll be attacked for being weak on China. So then you'll see the Democrats also pushing backward. Then you'll see both sides talking about who's going to be tougher on China. Yeah, yeah.

of political necessity. Okay? So then, guess what? On the American public, it's going to have some effect of, you know, hammering away, China's a threat, China's a threat, China's a threat. And all these Chinese people we see, more and more Chinese students and Chinese professionals, hmm, right? They're taking over. They're taking over. That's right. That's right. And I...

can only imagine what it must be like for some of the Chinese who are here, how uncomfortable the environment has become, right? For their colleagues or teachers or classmates who say, hey, I have a Chinese friend. Hey, we get along very well and blah, blah, blah. So that's why the people-to-people exchange is so important, right? But also, I think an important point that I've detected over the past year

Justin, is like with the trade war, with the trade war and with the U.S. going after Huawei, for example. Or I shouldn't say the U.S. I'm always trying to clarify the Trump administration going after Huawei. It's important to make clear that that Trump does not. OK, officially, they recognize or represent the U.S., but in many ways they represent their 40 percent base, the minority base.

And I've detected now a certain loss of self-confidence, a certain loss of American self-confidence, okay, with a company like Huawei or high-tech, artificial intelligence, trade war and all that. You know, I mean, look, I used to be younger and more naive, but I...

since there was that attitude of America is prepared to compete with anyone, right? We are number one. We are the best for this reason, that reason. Look at how we've evolved into a world's largest economy. And now I see instead playing the victimization card. Everyone is screwing us over, you know, primarily China and all the others. We've been getting the short end of the stick on every trade deal. And we need to protect ourselves. We need, instead of saying we're ready to go head to head,

with Chinese and hardworking Chinese, Chinese enterprise and industriousness and all that. It's like, no, now we're looking for ways to block the Chinese from our markets or somehow to hamstring the Chinese. Or calling it, you know, just saying, oh, it's unfair, right? You know, it's like if you're losing in a basketball game and instead of just...

I guess trying to play harder or playing better. You're saying, oh, what you're doing is unfair, you know, and calling fouls left and right, I think. And there are certain issues that even the Chinese acknowledge, you know, like intellectual property rights and all that. Some of the concerns or criticisms have some legitimacy, okay, and are worthy of negotiating and recognizing.

rectifying and all that, but overarching. There's a certain how can we compete with the Chinese? The numbers, like you said, 1.4 billion, but also they're hardworking. They're everywhere. They're all pushing, pushing, pushing to be number one. I learned that living in China. It's just

so much economic pressure on each and every Chinese to survive, each and every family and all that. Yes, there's something cultural about the hardworking Chinese, for sure, the cultural working hard, but also so much pressure to work hard and to survive and all that on families. The moment they have a newborn baby, the pressure to, okay, tutors and extra classes and get them into a good school and onto a good high school, onto a good university and all that. So much pressure on the Chinese, I see.

But anyway, on the U.S. side, I see, yeah, some wavering in American self-confidence. And part of that is also being fed

by this victimization complex of, you know, everyone's screwing us, that sort of thing. Right. Everyone's playing unfairly, but some, the, the, for some reason we've been playing fairly, everyone's playing unfairly. Yeah. So this national psyche that's, that's been planted and growing deeper. Well, that can be a very dangerous thing, right? That mentality, that psyche, that, that feeling of, of desperation, of, um,

When your back is against the wall, that is when you're at your most dangerous. And I think that's a good analogy of what we kind of see playing out right now is I feel America as a whole, the sentiment is kind of like their backs are against the wall now. And now the claws are going to come out. They're desperate.

And they're going to do whatever they can and fight whatever way they can for their own survival. Well, I think fortunately, you'll see some easing of that really once once we get rid of Donald Trump. Well, do you think do you think he's a I mean, I kind of think he might get reelected, to be honest. You think Biden has a chance against him?

I think anyone has a chance against him. Yes, because look, if you look at the numbers, Trump's numbers, of course he won.

in 2016, but he didn't win the popular vote. It's always important to remember that because of the peculiarities of our electoral system, that he did win overall, but still had 3 million fewer votes than Hillary Clinton, 65 million to 62 million, okay? And even then, he lost some of the moderates, okay? There are Republicans against Trump now. And so his numbers have never really gone much beyond 40%. Okay?

And so now the only concern is, I believe, the only way he can win is by cheating in some form. Whether it's him whining about mail-in ballots or somehow fraught with cheating and all that, which is utter bullshit because there have been lots of studies about how much actual cheating and dishonesty there is. A tiny, tiny, tiny...

But again, he wants to feed that conspiracy that somehow people mailing in their votes is going to rig the election. And then also individual states and all that, some trickery regarding minority voters and all that. It's really disgraceful what's happening in 2020. So the only way he can win is with cheating. But now there's such groundswell. And even getting back to the George Floyd scandal.

And what's happened to racism? You know what? I realized the other day, I said, you know what? It's been tough to make anything stick to Trump. But racism, I believe in this for or against right now is one way to get rid of him. OK, because the majority of Americans are not racist anymore.

Or at least the majority of Americans do not want America to be a racist society. They want a better society. Okay. They embrace, if you want to call political correctness a certain, you know what, I want to get along. I want, even if I have certain ugly reflexes about certain minority groups or whatever. Okay. Yeah.

you know what, it's better, it's healthier to keep those to myself, keep those in my own head, okay, or within my own four walls, but I want a healthier society that moves forward, okay, less violence, less hatred, that sort of thing. And so you're seeing some numbers of even Republicans, surprisingly, who are turning against Trump's rhetoric that this lack of healing

rhetoric coming out of him so I think that racism could be a major issue coming up and I think it's a winning issue for our side because you're with us or against us very few people relatively want to be pro-racism okay well I think sorry go ahead go ahead

No, no, no. I know that we've run long and I'm sure you want to wrap up soon. No, no, man. Not at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation. In fact, whenever it is you get back to Shanghai, I think we should, you know, you should come by again. I'm sure there's be much more we can talk about at that point in time. I'm sure there's probably be a lot more events that have transpired between now and then. But I was going to say like, you know, going back to what you're saying about Trump,

Being anti-Trump doesn't necessarily mean you're pro-Biden. I think that's where I'm concerned. I feel the people who are supporting Trump are very united in supporting Trump. So no matter what percentage of fan base he has, his fan base is very united and strong in that respect.

But however, on the other side, if you're anti-Trump, it doesn't necessarily mean you're pro-Biden. I think a lot of people are looking at Joe Biden and are very kind of split. Like they don't know how to feel about Joe Biden. Like they want to like Joe Biden because he's not Trump. But I think that's the main thing. I think people want to like Joe Biden because he's not Trump, not because he's Joe Biden.

Especially even the way he kind of presents himself now and talks, you see a lot of concerns, I think, with Joe Biden.

You know, that's a really good point. But you know what we say here? One thing I learned long ago, unfortunately. Of course, when I was younger, I used to be more idealistic and pro this, pro that. And then continually disappointed, even disillusioned, of course, with politics. I mean, even I remember when people voted for Barack Obama, our first black president. And what a milestone achievement. And people were talking about hope, hope, hope, and all that.

that almost immediately the disappointment began, the disillusionment began, because you could only disappoint people because politics is a dirty game. Ideally, it's about compromise. It's not even about winning, but about some form of compromise, which pisses off idealists. You don't want to compromise ever. And so people have mixed feelings about Barack Obama and all that. But the phrase that I've learned about American politics, unfortunately, is,

choosing the lesser of two evils. Okay, lesser of two evils. I remember voting in 2016 in Beijing at the U.S. Embassy, going in there not...

With all due respect to Hillary Clinton, I wasn't pro, pro, pro Hillary. OK, because there were things I liked about her, things I didn't like about her. But absolutely, I was anti-Trump. OK, and now even more impassioned. I can't even put my hatred aside.

for him and his administration into words. And I think, like I said, I think about 60% of Americans feel similarly. It's love or hate. And so the ultimate decision in November is not about whether you're pro-Trump or pro-Biden, but whether you're pro-Trump or anti-Trump. And whatever it is, whatever you feel, there's no time for idealism as, oh, I wish it were another candidate. It's about getting rid of, excising this cancer

in the White House, which has been so damaging to the US and even to the world in so many ways. America is standing in the world and to global harmony in many, I mean, okay, what it is, you know, I mean, in terms of climate change or looking at withdrawing from the World Health Organization during this pandemic. During a pandemic, yeah. Yes, on so many levels.

He's been bad for the world itself and not to mention us poor Americans. So what he's done to traumatize us over the past three months. So, so yes, that's why whatever, you know, at this point, I only want to hear about pro Biden or anti Biden. If anyone is better. Okay. Anyone with a decent mind,

with a decent heart. Okay. And to me, Biden clearly satisfies that minimum requirements. Okay. He's not,

I hate to say it, Trump is clearly mentally ill and we've been sucked into his mental illness for three and a half years, which has been really traumatizing for many of us. I see the impact on me and my family and others, how we've been affected by having someone lying every single day and trying to convince us that his lies are truth. You know, it's just, it's a sickness, right?

And so, as you see, I have very strong feelings about my own country. But, you know, Justin, one thing I want to mention before I forget, because I think this is really interesting or important point, moving forward, we're talking about walls being built and bridges and all that. I think one litmus test, one major gauge of us moving forward, even as an international organization,

is actually international education, looking at international education and how the combination of the pandemic and Trump administration policies are anti-foreigner racism or anti-Chinese xenophobia, how that's going to affect the numbers of Chinese, let's say, specifically coming over to America to study, whether it's in high school or universities, etc.

And how that will affect, you know, I mean, for your listeners to understand that the Chinese are the largest community of foreign students in the U.S. and are growing, right? They're a major source of, of course, tuition dollars.

But they're also a major source of diversity, even just the opportunity to meet Chinese or to have a Chinese in your class and to say, so what do you guys think about the trade war? Or what do you guys think about what's going on in Xinjiang or in Hong Kong or with Huawei or anything like that?

So just to have Chinese in the classroom or in your community walking around or in your workplace. And so I'll be very curious to see the decisions that Chinese parents are making, which is, you know what?

I don't want my little angel to be exposed to hatred or discrimination and sending them to America, but still recognizing the value of an American education, still recognizing the value of prying open their minds to the wider world, right? And American culture, recognizing that America still has a preeminent place on the international stage, the world's largest economy and everything.

a beacon in many other ways so that's that's what i'm looking at is is is even with the this enrollment for for you know whether more students will more chinese students will cancel

their decision to come to the U.S., whether they'll be allowed to come and granted visas, right? But then also whether the application for the next round in the fall semester, you know, how many Chinese parents will now be discouraging their kids, their children from... That's a good point. That's a really good point. Never thought about it.

I mean, it could very possibly be drastically lower in the coming years. As a barometer, as a barometer, because one of the things I'm doing right now, I'm working with Chinese high schoolers. I'm working with a group of 10 Chinese high school students on a journalism project online. And four of them are in China, five are in America, and one is in Australia. Hmm.

And actually, even just yesterday, I think it was that China said something about Australia that Chinese students should think about. Reconsider going to Australia because of, they say, because of eruption of anti-Chinese racism and xenophobia. But that's also connected to broader political tensions between Australia and China. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a barometer.

that international education will really indicate, because for Chinese society, by the way, it's also not good for Chinese to return to a more insular society.

way of living where, you know, China's own borders close and we say, okay, here we're safe just among ourselves. And, you know, here we can just rely on each other and not be more open to. Yeah, I think that's a tendency, you know, in Chinese culture, because China historically, for all its thousands of years of history, has historically always been very insular.

you know at the height of you know when china was at its golden age you know historically in ancient times when they were probably the most powerful nation in the world you know they they never went out to to colonize other territories you know like the europeans did you know so they were always very inward looking you know zhongguo right the central country right so

I feel like that could be a tendency and it goes back to what we were talking about, like this cross-pollination and how cross-pollinating crops

cultures and ideas between countries is extremely, extremely important. And that I hope that goes up and I hope there's more and more of that in the near future. But like you say, you know, it would be, it would be very interesting to see, it'll be a really good barometer to kind of see that cross pollination in the education, international education. And that would be very telling, I think, in terms of what we can expect in the next generation. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes. And I mean, you try to think I'm always looking for evidence, right? So what would be evidence of cross-cultural, international relations and cohabitation and

you know, harmony and all that. It's like, okay, you can look at companies doing business. Are there going to be more or fewer because of the trade war, because of the pandemic, but then especially these people to people exchanges, academic exchanges, cultural exchanges. And so, you know, like I said, one great way is to, to keep an eye on students, whether they're high school, university grad students,

scholars, whether there really will be a clampdown on that, whether it's government policy from this side or Western societies, but also whether the Chinese themselves will be more reluctant because in their mind, they'll think that anti-Chinese racism and xenophobia is stronger and more pervasive than it really is. Unfortunately, the media on the Chinese side is playing up

as if every chinese on the street is being shouted at and threatened and attacked and all that and it's certainly not as widespread as the way it's being presented so i worry about that too how accurate a representation the chinese are receiving as to that you know how hostile is it really but

Some of it is true. And like I said, it's going to be ratcheted up in the coming months and a run-up to the elections Yeah, when do you when do you think the travel bans are gonna be lifted if you had to guess? Do you see a light at the end of the tunnel with that? That's a really good question. No, I myself I'm not allowed back into China yet. Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm still here Because I'm not allowed back into China You know

I guess economic pressures, economic demands will allow for some lifting of that. But, you know, it may only be when there's a cure, when there's a vaccine. Right. For any society, for example, if I'm the Chinese, I'm thinking with empathy. If I were a Chinese society, why would I allow in vaccines?

foreigners, widespread foreigners, right? Or widespread arrival of foreigners. Even if, wow, we really want their tourism dollars. Hey, this ain't, there's no messing around with this virus, right? And so you might have to just bite the bullet, right? With tourism and then with students and with cultural exchanges and all that and say, we can only open up and freely allow for freer travel

when all countries can be reassured, you know, because we don't want a second wave, not to mention a third wave or more. So vaccine and cures is the only thing, you know, it's really the only time we're going to see some normalization of relations. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, Michael, this was a very fascinating conversation. Thank you for your time. This was great. My pleasure, Justin. I was happy to. In this age with so much isolation, physical isolation,

and emotional isolation, it's great to reach out and still to connect across oceans and cultures. You have a foot in both worlds in your own way. I have a foot in both worlds in my own humble way. So it's great too. But I think that gives us unique perspective, right? I mean, it's something that I really value personally.

being able to have, you know, a foot on both sides kind of thing. It's frustrating. It's, it's frustrating as shit sometimes, you know, because, you know, you, you try to talk to people that don't, you know, that don't see it that way. And it gets very frustrating, but I wouldn't have it any other way. And I think, you know, having conversations like this is a therapeutic in a way.

I'm sure it's very different for you as a Chinese American because I can imagine to some degree maybe not being accepted fully by one or even both sides. For me, it's obviously different as a Lao Wai, but I do feel very fortunate. Let me ask you something unrelated. Are you a New York Knicks fan or a Brooklyn Nets fan? Do you follow the NBA?

I would say I'm a New York Yankees fan. Okay, you're a baseball guy. You're a baseball guy. I'm a baseball guy, and I grew up in New Jersey, and the Nets don't have as deep roots in the region as the Knicks. They're much more a storied franchise. And I lived in Brooklyn for a bit, too, so...

I pull for both, but I'm not nearly as passionate about basketball as I am. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Had to ask. Pinstripes. Yes. For the Yankees. But anyway, thank you, Michael, for your time. It was awesome talking to you. We're going to stay in touch and we're going to figure this thing out. And then whenever you can make it back, you know, we'll have you here in the studio for a proper drink.

That's for a proper drink. That's right. That's right. You'll need it by then. You'll need it by then. I feel like I missed out since all your other guests get to clink glasses with you too. Yeah, man. Justin, thanks so much for this. This is great. Okay? Thank you, Michael. My pleasure. See ya. See ya. Again, bye-bye. Bye-bye.