#81. The Voice In Our Head
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us on our email, Instagram, WeChat. Details are in the description below. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

All right. Today, Howie, Eric, and myself, we have a little conversation about filler words, which are little nonsense words you don't even realize you're saying. And I think every language, every culture has their own versions of these, like um and like. And so we address some comments we've gotten recently about that. And we also talk about taming our inner voice.

For many people, I think our inner voice sabotages us in the most critical moments when we're under the most pressure or when we're nervous. We share examples of when this happens to us and we look for possible solutions in a book called Chatter, which we explore today. And it gives us a much better understanding of what our inner voice actually is, how it works, and how we can get it to work for us rather than against us when we need it the most. So,

Without further ado, it's The Honest Drink, and here we go. All right, yeah, so...

We were talking about, you know, how we began a couple comments on our last episode, Escape from America. You know? Yeah, you know? You know? You know, you know, you know? You know? So I think that applies to both us as hosts and the guests, I'm assuming. Because I think we do that a lot ourselves. We definitely do that. We do, you know, write. Like. Like. Like. But you make a good point, Eric, what you said before. I think it's...

If you're a native English speaker, you get so desensitized and numb to these like little like fillers, I guess. And we don't even notice it anymore. But if you're relatively newer to, I guess, English, I guess these things will just really stand out, really pop out to you. Which makes sense. Makes sense.

So how do we stop doing it? If you're listening to someone and you might not know every single English word that they're saying. So automatically, like 20% of the words maybe are just kind of flying by you because it's not necessarily your mother tongue. And then you hear the same words over and over and over and over and over. On one hand, you're trying to process the words that you might not be as familiar with.

And you're hearing the same thing over and over and over and over. It's the same thing as the words in Chinese that sound similar to a derogatory term for people, for a certain, you know... 那个. Yeah, right? That. That.

But that's not really the same thing, right? It is. It's a filler word. It's a filler word. It's the same concept. Chinese people have that. Well, for all of our listeners who are not familiar with that phrase, we're not...

trying to be racist. It's a term, it's a word, a filler word in Chinese. It would be like a like or a you know. But what it actually means is what? That. Yeah, that. That. Nigga, that, that, that, that thing, that, that. It's when you're trying to find the word for something and it doesn't immediately come to your mind and you say it, but it's a very common thing and you might hear it in almost any conversation and we filtered it out because we speak Mandarin. Yeah. Yeah.

And so foreigners who come here for the first time and then find themselves in a situation where they're listening to that word, it's surprising and shocking to them. And to the point where there's jokes about it. Yeah, no, well, it's like growing up, I've had a friend that had asked me because, you know, I was, I think I was with my parents at the time.

I forget where we were, we were somewhere in public and my parents were talking to me and he kept just hearing like "niga niga niga niga" and then he pulled me aside he's like he's like is that does that mean what I think it means? I'm like no obviously not. Am I hearing what I think I'm hearing? Yeah yeah yeah. Well what do you say in Chinese? I mean we all have this problem in English right? Things like you know well in Chinese do you guys have anything that you use besides "niga"?

I don't know. I'm a mess when I try to speak in Chinese. I'm a complete mess. But wait, but hold on. Let's back up just a quick second. I think for our listeners in China who might not know what we're referring to by 那个, how do we explain that? It's like, it's a really, really... You're trying to be good about it. I'm like trying to like, it's a tight wire act right now. So it's completely a tight wire act. Okay, it's a very racist term.

That has been used in American culture to refer to African Americans. Black people. Black people. Yeah. It's an extremely, it's like the most racist thing you can say. It's so bad that literally we can't say it. And if we were to say it, it would feel disgusting. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, for our Chinese listeners, you know how much we swear on this show. And this is something we won't say. We can't touch this. Nor should, nor do we want to. But I'm saying, like, it's just like so off limits. And it sounds just like nigga. And it's commonly referred to as the N-word. Yes, the N-word. So, you know, if you want to know more about it, look it up. Thou shalt not speaketh of it. But just to create some context. Yeah.

Anyway, go on. Okay, so Chinese. Yeah, I was asking about Chinese besides Joseph Shaw. Right, because the bigger topic is his filler words. The reason that any of this even came up was that apparently you guys were on a show. I wasn't available last week. I was moving. And you guys were on a show and our guest...

And us, or you guys, I don't know who it was, were using lots of filler words. And it became apparent to the listeners. And they kind of honed in on that a little bit, right? And one of those is, you know. Well, yeah, it's strange because I had not even noticed until you brought it to our attention, Howie, that there were a couple comments in the comment section referring to the overuse of the words, you know.

And then I had listened to the episode. First of all, I really enjoyed our last episode of Vinny, Escape from America. I really enjoyed that episode a lot. But then I didn't notice anything. And then when you had told me about it, I had went back to kind of go back and skim through the episode again. And when you have that in your head, when you're aware, oh, are people calling out this you know thing, I couldn't stop hearing you know, because you're looking out for it. And I think the only reason why I...

I brought it up is because filler words are something that I'm always trying to get rid of. So I'm always aware when I listen to ourselves, whenever we use it, especially me. Maybe that's another reason why I'm so quiet because I'm so bad with filler words. And yeah, so it stood out quite loudly to me that it was funny when the comments came in, I was like, whoa,

I felt that too. Well, the problem is that it's become a reflex. So we are not even aware when we're using it until someone points it out or we listen to ourselves. That's the problem. Because if you want to control it,

We have to be very mindful of how we're talking. All of a sudden, you kind of slow down the way you talk and articulate. That's what Tim Ferriss, if you notice, he does is he slows his talk. Some of his cadences are quite intentional. And so what he's trying to do is adjust the pace of his brain with his words. That's good. And you can kind of...

So he's able to kind of sync things in a way where it doesn't distract you because it can be distracting if you're not speaking off the cuff and you're so...

You're so... Caught up. Caught up. Yes. Or like self-conscious about it. Because normally if we're just speaking and we're not self-conscious about it, we sprinkle in a couple of you knows and rights and people just will normalize to that and not hear it. It doesn't kind of cross that tipping point, that line. But people who are public speakers train themselves and then they have to use a lot of mental energy because...

It's like a DJ and imagine like two records. One is your brain and then one is your actual mouth and you've got to sync them up both perfectly. And if one's moving too fast or too slow, you've got to kind of slow it down and it's a bit complex. Especially when your career depends on it. Yeah. It's like you want to be mindful of it, but you don't want it to interrupt like your natural flow.

in terms of speaking organically and with like the same energy and same kind of freedom, I guess you would normally speak with. And that's what I was saying to you. I think last time is not that you're overthinking it is that don't let the overthinking it, like be mindful of it, but don't let your overthinking it deter you from engaging in the conversation because that is, that is worse in my opinion. You mentioned, you just mentioned overthinking, overthinking. That's a,

It's something that I've been thinking about recently. Oh, really, really good segue, Eric. I was going to share a story, but I guess not. Yeah. Just share your story.

My story or Howie's story? Howie's story. You didn't say you have a story. I was going to continue this topic, but if you want to change it, then I guess we can change it. It's a big mess right now. It's all about Eric. It was a very forceful segue. And then you were trying to squeeze your story in at the same time. It wasn't a forceful segue. It's a traffic jam. It's an intersection. The traffic lights aren't working and we're all kind of like, do I go? Do you go?

This is the moment we realize that this is not a professional podcast. We're a bunch of amateurs. And even though there's hundreds, literally thousands of bottles in the room and that we've thought that drinking all this whiskey was going to somehow improve our public broadcasting skills. We've gotten to a point where we reflected after two years of where are we right now? Should we just shut this tent down and just pack up? I don't know. All right.

All right, go ahead, Howie. Go ahead. No, I was going to say, because we're talking about these filler words, and you were saying in Chinese, is one of the ones that Eric brought up that he sometimes says, and Justin, you laughed and agreed. But one thing that I always say that Vivi yelled at me about

And was like, you guys are speaking like a moron now. It's like, I'm on video. Am I speaking like that? Okay, sorry. I'm not supposed to... Now you just made him 10 times more self-conscious. I'm not supposed to do this because on the last show, there was a bit of self-reflection and that I shouldn't be criticizing...

my great friend and great co-host Howie. And I really just take the piss out of him all the time. Our listeners seem to love it. They love it. They think it's banter, but it's actually just, I'm just attacking him. It's terrible. Okay, keep going. This is drama between you two. I'm going to stay out. Silence. We've made our peace. Yeah, we've made our peace. So, what was I saying? Yes, and...

So my thing was that I'm always saying, 你知道吗? 你知道吗? Well, that's the you know. That's the equivalent. Exactly. Or right. Yes. Because you want to like, yeah. Emphasize. And that's something that's so normal in English. But in Chinese, I've translated it into Chinese. And apparently, it's not a normal thing, right? If you're a native Chinese speaker, you don't say...

After everything, 你知道吗? Because if you do say that, what it actually means is you're almost criticizing the person listening to you as if they're dumb and they don't understand what you're saying. And it's a little preachy. I wouldn't say preachy. It is kind of preachy, but I don't think preachy is completely accurate. It comes off in Chinese culture, I think, a little condescending. Yes, condescending is a good one.

And so Vivi was saying, she's like, I'm always hearing you say tsudama, tsudama, tsudama at the end. Does anybody ever give you shit about that? I was like, why would anyone give me shit about that? You know, back before when she first brought it up. I was like, why? I was dumb about it. I was like, why would anyone give me shit about that? Like, no, people would think that you're looking down upon them. They don't understand what you're saying. Even if you're saying something simple, you're just so used to saying it.

But from our perspective, it's like not condescending at all because we're like literally translating how we speak in English to Chinese and you can't do that because things don't translate equally like that, right? And there's a lot of cultural differences in terms of how it comes off. Yeah, yeah. It's similar. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but I think I used to say like when people ask me something or say something, I'd be like, zinda.

And then they would look at me kind of weird and they'd be like, yes, it's in the... Berena. Yeah, exactly. But like in English, it's like, really? You know, like, oh, really? You know, it's not like...

It's not weird, right? But in Chinese, I guess it's weird for you to reply that way. Yeah. Because it's like, yes, well, why would I like, what, you think I'm lying to you? Like, you know, like, it doesn't translate culturally. Yeah. It's interesting. It's fascinating. And another reason why I shared that, because some reason recently, I've been thinking about what's been going on in my head.

And really thinking these thoughts. Okay. Which brings me to Eric. What he segued in before. You're up, Eric. Batter up. You're going to hear the biggest barrage of you knows right. Softball. You know that you've ever heard ever in your life.

There's another example of that in Chinese that I've heard. And it's interesting that you say that things don't necessarily translate. And when we're trying to synchronize or calibrate our minds and our voices, sometimes they just get a little bit off sync.

And we're struggling because the mind already knows what you want to say. The mind is fast. It's quick. And if you're speaking in a second or a third language, you're struggling to not only find that precise word, but also how to phrase it in a way that...

allows you to communicate in a way that the audience is gonna understand you. And I've heard, I think in Chinese, like you'll hear and it's like a pause. It's like, they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to say something. That thing, right? And then I've heard in English and it's very stark. It's like our listeners hearing, you know, how to say. So you'll hear someone's like, oh yeah, I was at this place, how to say. But that's like a, it's a reverse example, a counter example of what you're saying.

Because they're saying in their minds of Moshua, which becomes a natural filler for

which is normalized by everyone because they hear it all the time and it's a pause. And when you directly translate it into English, how to say, it sounds awkward because you're directly translating those words literally. So you're taking your mind's process and actually speaking it out loud. And that's the issue. That's the issue is that whether you're a native Chinese speaker trying to speak English or you're a native English speaker trying to speak Chinese or any other language,

for that matter, is that like, let's say for us, like we're not really, well, I can't, I'm not going to speak for you guys, but I'll speak for myself. And I've analyzed this, right? I've analyzed this with myself. It's like, I'm not actually really speaking Chinese when I'm speaking Chinese. In my head, I'm actually speaking English and I'm translating into Chinese in real time. Like that's actually the process and mechanism, right?

So it's not like these thoughts are coming at me in Chinese and I'm just speaking it because that would be speaking Chinese. And my thoughts are coming in English and I'm just trying to translate everything in real time directly and literally into Chinese. And that's what happens. And that's the trouble we get into is that you can't do that because things just, many things just don't translate literally. Whether it's with the grammar or whether with the culture or, you know, or with the syntax, right?

A lot of it is different. There are lots of nuances lost. I think it's akin to... I'm trying to think of the right analogy, but imagine playing guitar. So if you know how to play guitar, then what's in your mind in terms of the emotions you want to convey then directly translate into your fingers and into the music. And so whatever scales you're playing...

You're not thinking about the individual scales. You're just playing the music. Yeah.

And I don't know how to play. I play piano. I don't know how to play the guitar. And so when I try to play guitar, it's like I have to go through that extra translation process. And then you just, it's not natural because what's coming from your mind and into the instrument, there's such a massive gap and you lose a lot of that signal. Another analogy could be like you're recording something and then you put it onto tape and then you put it onto a different type of

recording medium and every time you do that you lose fidelity you lose some of the signal and that's what happens when you go from language to language to language i think it's it'll be interesting to see how ai and technology help us solve these problems because you already see people go to different countries and they just speak in their mother tongue and then the app just translates directly and people are literally they can use their own native language and then have a medium in between almost like star trek

Star Trek. Oh, that happened in Star Trek? Yeah, I think it's Star Trek. They have a lot of sort of future-looking type things. Okay, okay. Never really watched Star Trek. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, but then it's hard not to overthink the whole thing, right? Because when you're aware of all this, that all these kind of mechanisms are happening and processes are happening, then you get caught up. And I think that's why many of us, and I know a lot of native Chinese speakers...

In the company I used to work at, you know, their English, like when you speak to them in private, like their English is pretty good. Like it's really good. Like you can speak to them fine in English. But like let's say they were to speak a little more publicly in front of, in a meeting with more people. They completely shut down. They completely shut down because it's a lack of confidence and they're

It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing when you can't express yourself. When you try to express yourself, but it comes off like you're a three-year-old. Well, some people shut down even in their own native language when you're doing public speaking. Yeah, well, that's the number one biggest fear, right? Yeah. That's something I think by doing this podcast, it's trying to help us get over as well. Have you guys ever had a situation where...

you were trying to maybe do something that was slightly challenging. Maybe it was public speaking. Maybe it was something that was something you were learning. Something challenging, you said? Yeah, something challenging or boxing. And then you started to overthink it or you started to think about it. And then it got to the point where it was like paralyzing you and then you couldn't do it. Similar to the analogy you just shared. Sort of like how I view our friendship. Yeah.

A little bit. Okay. That was kind of just completely irrelevant. It didn't help the conversation. But do you guys... No, I get what you're saying. Let me ask it this way. Do you guys ever overthink things or do you ever have this inner voice that's telling you stuff that's not productive? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Of course. I think we all do, right? It's just that to what degree, I guess. Some people have that dial turned up a little bit more than others, right? Yeah. But we all have it. Yeah, I have things that go on in my head and I tend to like overthink things in terms of, you know, coming from the angle of like being a perfectionist. So I wouldn't label myself as a perfectionist because there's plenty of things in my life that I don't,

do like a perfectionist. I don't like behave like one. But then there are certain things that I totally behave like a perfectionist. This show. No, not even the show. I mean, this show is like pretty casual. Choice of friends. Not Howie. No, clearly not the choice of friends. But, you know, let's say like I do something, right? Like, you know, like a workout, like boxing, for example, right? Like I box and

And I'm kind of a perfectionist about that where it actually holds me back because instead of getting into the flow and the rhythm of, of a fight,

or into the strategy of a fight, I'm always just kind of thinking about like every single movement of my body, every joint, every twist of the hip, every pivot of the foot, every turn of the wrist, you know, every position of my head. And I want every single thing to be so perfect that you end up draining yourself of your energy thinking about that rather than just thinking about like, how do you beat this guy? You know? Yeah. And

And it distracts you from the real goal where you end up thinking the real goal is to look good, but the real goal is to win the fight. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think coincidentally, that's kind of a metaphor for life maybe even, right? Like, like we get so caught up on other things that we kind of lose sight of the real goals. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, that's the way I overthink things. I don't know if that's what you're talking about. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and there's two aspects to this. One is I imagine without knowing, you know, without knowing as much as you on boxing, but...

it's a very complex chain of events where you're training all different types of movements and you're trying to build a collection of movements that flow from one to another so that you can attack and go on the offensive with your opponent and if you break everything down to individual pieces they would just be too slow if you if you have to consciously think about all these movements

Like literally in one second, so much stuff happens. And if you're trying to break everything down into your conscious brain, then you're not going to be able to respond in time because you're talking about stuff that's happening in real time. And then like you fail to be able to be instinctive about it. And so it's interesting that you say that.

um, that you start hyper-focusing on these little things and then you drain yourself of energy because you're thinking about all the individual movements. And if you look at like gymnastics or tennis or whatever it is, like the, it's when, when they start overthinking things that things kind of break down. If you remember, and maybe our audience is not super familiar, familiar with baseball, which is, you know, a sport,

developed in North America, but I think people generally know what baseball is. I don't think you needed to explain baseball. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm just busting your nuts here. It's good. It's good. It's good. I just wanted to be thorough in my explanation. But anyways, we all know what baseball is, but a lot of our audience doesn't know who the guests are. But do you remember a guy named Rick Ankeel?

from probably about 10, 20 years ago. Is he a baseball player? Yeah. I don't follow baseball. You don't follow baseball. Rick Ankle? Yeah. Like I know Babe Ruth. Okay. Howie plays baseball. You probably have heard of...

what happened to this guy so he was like the top guy he was like the michael jordan he was a pitcher he threw the ball and oh that guy right and he he he's the guy that throws the ball pitches the ball the other guy has to hit it he has to throw it fast enough and elusive enough where the other person can't hit it but you have to throw it in a certain range you can't just like throw it anywhere and so this guy was a master he had incredible control over the ball he could literally

you know, throw a hundred mile an hour fastball. He was young too. Yeah, he was young. And he was a number one draft pick. He was the most coveted 19, 20 year old player. He played on like one of the best teams, but he got early on, but put in very high pressure situations. And so he did really well for like the first year or two. And then the coach decided that he could handle the highest level of pressure. So they were in the playoffs, like at the end of the season, the last couple of teams, and they put them in a game.

And, you know, he started the game okay. And then he started throwing the ball. And then, like, literally the ball just, like, he threw it, like, twice.

10 feet over the plate. Okay. And it completely... He lost control of the ball. It was called a wild pitch. A wild pitch. So imagine like basketball. You throw the basketball. Usually it'll hit the rim, right? Like literally, like his pitch was so wild, it would be like shooting a basketball and throwing it out of bounds. It's like Steph Curry open... Like into the stands. Like Steph Curry open, no defenders on him. And he shoots a three and it goes over the backboard. Yeah. Right. And so he does that and people don't think anything of it. But long story short, he...

it created a pattern and then he could not actually pitch anymore because every single pitch would just go like over the stands. They call that the yips, right? Yeah. Like golfers get that. And so like if you were playing catch, like let's say that like

we weren't pitching and you know, he were just like, Hey, throw the ball to me. He could throw it over fine. But when it was in a game and he had to make that pitch, he went from one of the best, most talented pitchers in the, in the league to like not be able to throw the ball at all. So, and this is all like just a true story. Yeah, totally true story. Like, I mean, and, and like, he's very famous. Like everyone knows about this guy and he just could not pitch anymore because

and he spent years trying to get over it mentally, saw a psychologist, whatever, and he just couldn't get over it. He couldn't get back to the level that he was. So then he left baseball, and then eventually, though, to his credit, he came back as a hitter. So he couldn't be a pitcher anymore, and he came back and he had a career as a hitter. And so it was like the strangest thing ever, but it was just a classic case of overthinking.

He could not stop thinking about the entire motion of pitching. And because pitching is such a complex motion that he could not get it out of his head. And so then as he was pitching, his mechanics would just break down because he was trying to think about it too much. Whereas this is something, it's muscle memory. And so it's a case where his mind was overactive, hyperactive. And ultimately he could not be a pitcher anymore. Right.

Whereas he could throw the ball, like physically, if you asked him to throw a ball. But in that specific scenario, he could not control his mind. In a weird way, I feel like I can relate. And I'm not even going to like assume I even know what was going on in his head. But I would think like for me, if I was in that situation, it'd be like the voice, my inner voice of like, don't fuck up. Don't fuck this up. Don't fuck this up would be so loud every time I'm on that mound.

It's like the cliche saying of when someone tells you not to think of a pink elephant, you can't help but think of a pink elephant. And so that voice becomes so loud that it's almost impossible at that point to tune it out. And then you're just bound to gravitate towards the very thing you are desperately not trying to do. That's tragic. Exactly. Because, I mean, pitching is...

Basically, your form and your ability and your level of pitching, your expertise in pitching comes through repetition, right? It's just like golf, like you mentioned, Eric.

Through repetition, through many years of repetition and practicing on every joint, like what you're doing, hyper-focusing on every little thing, and then you finally put it together and you repeat it over and over again until it becomes you don't think about it. You just throw. And then that ball goes into the area where it's supposed to go. No thinking. And then as a pitcher, because I used to pitch,

That's exactly what happens. Because the minute, if you, for some reason, the ball's not going to where you want, all of a sudden you're like, why is it not going to where it's supposed to go? Oh, that's right. It used to be a baseball pitcher. Yeah. Okay. And so whenever I would think that, and all of a sudden I would start thinking to myself, like, why is it not going? Okay, I know. I have to adjust my shoulder a little bit here, and then I got to do a little bit of that, right? And then it'll get even worse. But eventually I realized I have to just shut the fuck up.

Right. And just don't think and just throw it harder, you know, just, just go even harder and without thinking. And then, and usually it works, it works out. Well, it's, it's, it's really, really interesting because both of you guys kind of show like incredible intuition and, and, and this particular topic and whether it's like, you know, pitching a baseball or boxing or like giving a public speech or any kind of moment where there's intense pressure, it's almost like the, the,

you know, the more pressure I put on myself, the more I want to do better, like the worst I'm going to do. And in Chinese, like I've heard the term like xing li zuo yong. And so you just get so into your head and that, and you use the word inner voice to kind of describe this. So there's a book called Chatter, which I recently read, which is really, really interesting. It's interesting because like,

I wanted to talk about this today, but I didn't really describe much about like the content of it. But you guys used a lot of the same words that scientists use

used to describe this particular situation. So it was really interesting that a lot of this stuff really connects and hits home. And yet we don't know that much about it and it impacts us every single day. And so you ask yourself or our listeners, like, are you ever in a situation where you really need to do well, where the pressure is there, the stakes are high, and it's important for you to deliver. And then in that moment, sometimes you just crumble.

Like your inner voice that's supposed to be helping you and encouraging you is giving you this chatter. And then ultimately you fail because you just thought too much. And like, how are you like brilliant? What you said, it was like, you just told your inner voice. You said, shut the fuck up. So then the question is like,

why do we have an inner voice? And like some people's inner voice is really, really loud. And some people's inner voice is not as loud and it's got to affect your confidence. And I have to admit, I have a really loud inner voice. So there's a guy. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. And I, and I, and I, and I actually take my inner voice and I take the AirPods out and I put it on a loud speaker and everyone can hear, but we all have this. And you kind of ask yourself then, well,

like there's a lot of questions that come up. Okay. So what is the inner voice? Is there a biological reason behind it? What do we know about the inner voice? Why is it, why does it sabotage us sometimes, but then why are some people able to channel it in a really positive way? So what's fascinating is that there's a guy, um,

in the U S at the university of Michigan, Ethan cross is pretty well known now as being one of the world's leading neuroscientists around this. And he studies on these silent conversations that people have. Like he's one of the world's leading scientists. Um, and he wrote this book that just came out called chatter. And if you think about during COVID, um,

Like when you're talking to your friends and you're hanging out in nature and you're playing sports, you don't have time for chatter in this inner voice because you're so focused on that activity. But imagine people, especially outside of China that have been sitting their ass at home. Some people isolated for like a year now can't go out.

like that inner voice, I mean, it's like crazy. And so he asked this question, right? He said, okay, well, why are some people able to benefit from focusing inward to understand their feelings while other people crumble when they engage in the same kind of introspective behavior? So he uses like, you know, computer science, like brain imaging, psychology, all these things and he combines to kind of study this stuff.

Now the net net is that this is really cool is that what the book talks about is that he's figured out ways where if you think of your mind as this very complex lock, really, really complex lock, they've figured out techniques of how you can pick this lock of the magical sort of backdoors of the brain so that you can use different techniques to

to unlock your brain and improve these inner conversations so you're not sabotaging yourself. 'Cause we've talked so much on this show how to get you out of your comfort zone, how to stretch yourself, how you put yourself in the right mindset.

The fact that we have positive and negative mindset means that your inner voice can be your enemy and it could be your biggest cheerleader. And often when you need it to be your cheerleader, it's not a fucking cheerleader, right? And so he talks about this notion of chatter, this informal term, and I'll kind of read this and I think people can relate to it. Chatter consists of this cyclical, like repeated negative thoughts and emotions that turn our ability for introspective,

And, you know, kind of reflection into a curse rather than a blessing. It puts our performance, decision-making, relationships, happiness, health, and jeopardy. We think about the screw-up at work or the misunderstanding with a loved one or get, you know, end up flooded by how bad we feel. Then we think about it again and again and again and again. And we introspect hoping to tap into our inner coach, but we find our inner critic instead. And, you know, like Mark Manson kind of talks about this.

And a more just a kind of a colloquial way of like this negative feedback loop.

And so your inner voice, your conscience is powerful because it helps you understand where you are in your life, where you need to get better. And it's your, it's your coach, but why does it become sometimes your biggest critic, critic, right? And so this book is really amazing to kind of illustrate like why we have an inner voice. What's the evolutionary purpose behind it. And then what are some of the things that you can do to, to,

guide your inner voice to be positive rather than negative but i thought it was super relevant because i feel like i'm my worst enemy you're your worst enemy and we've talked about this how is his own worst enemy and this book is about like how do you take your enemy and make it like your actual ally it's pretty fascinating it is fascinating and i have a i guess i have a theory because i feel like i have a theory that like our inner voice is just our fear right

And fear can be very useful and hurtful depending on the context, right? Like fear can motivate you to do great things, to do courageous acts, but fear can also paralyze you. And I think it depends on a moment. It depends on the context. And maybe, you know, in regards to this conversation, it depends on the task, right?

Going back to our analogy of, let's say, a golf swing, hitting a golf ball or a pitcher, throwing a ball into the strike zone, or boxing, throwing a punch. You know, if we take golf and baseball, like there's so much smaller of a margin of error because the golf ball is so small. The golf club, you know, face is, you know, if you're off by just a fraction of degree, you know, it translates into yards to the right, right? Same with a pitch, right?

But a punch has like a much wider margin of error. Like if I throw a punch, I might not have the best form, but I can still hit your face with my fist, you know? It's a very wide margin of error there. So this translates into different tasks that we do. So I think like our inner voice or chatter, as this book puts it, is just our fear. And depending on the margin of error of the tasks we're performing at the time,

and how we handle that chatter or how we handle our fears, it can manifest in positive or negative ways. Right. And that's, that's my, like, as you're talking and as I'm absorbing what you're saying, Eric, like, that's how I, that's how I kind of understand it.

in my own head. Yeah. You know, absolutely. And there's so many angles to this that I think are just like that are, that are fascinating because you, we've done, you know, 90 shows and we've been talking about similar things. We've been talking about the symptoms and we've been talking to other people in different industries to see how they cope with the stuff. And I think that's all been really helpful. Like taking cold showers, exercising, all these are effective ways to,

and when I read this book it was just really powerful because now we can look at the science behind it and then once you really understand the science and the studies behind it then you can kind of understand what the reasons are and then these are

really data proven kind of methods to kind of help, right? Because we've been talking about the symptoms, but we didn't know what we were kind of, you know, getting at. One of the things that they've done though is they can actually merge psychology and neurobiology. And what I mean by that is they can bring in people and put them under different situations and then they can scan their brain. So then they can see like what's actually happening. So we're kind of guessing that,

a lot of the times. And that's why we go back to, let's say, like Buddhism or Stoicism, because those are some actually really effective methods that people have done to kind of tune out that turbulent inner voice and to channel it in the right way. And so those are ancient philosophers where they kind of stumbled upon something that intuitively worked. And then when you merge that with science, it's fascinating. So what they found was that, for instance, right, like

Like meditation. Meditation and mindfulness has been around for thousands of years, but now it's quite in vogue. I meditate, like, you know, and I find it very beneficial. They found by imaging the brain that we spend up to half our waking time and waking life not in the present. Like the inner voice is hijacking your fucking brain. So imagine like you're trying to make a business deal. You're trying to do a podcast. You're trying to not say you know. And half the time your brain's thinking about that and fucking with you.

It's terrible. And they can, and so I thought that was really fascinating, right? Here's another really incredible, incredible piece of data. So your verbal stream of thought, this inner voice, they've been able to estimate if it wasn't the number of words, your mind, your inner voice speaks at the equivalent of about 4,000 words per minute. So that inner voice in your head, because they can kind of somehow image your brain and then basically,

when you're in that mode, they can estimate. Because if you can't... They can also know like what areas of your brain activate. Exactly. And different areas of your brain correlate to different cognitive processes. Right. And also they can study the brain waves that are activated. Yeah, exactly. And then they put it in perspective. They said that imagine like a typical State of the Union address, like when American president speaks. It

It's usually about 6,000 words in an hour. Okay. But our inner voice can do that in 60 seconds. So that typically if we sleep eight hours a day, our inner voice is doing the equivalent of 320 speeches by American president every single day. It's a very fast talker. So think about that. If that inner voice is a little bit negative or doubting you or questioning you,

It's literally like you're climbing a mountain every freaking day and we're talking about how do we improve ourselves, how we live a better life. It's really, really fascinating. So the book points out to a major, major problem, a major opportunity. If we can just channel our brain and get our inner voice to be a little bit less talkative, we could actually do a lot more. I've never really thought about it that way. That's actually really, really fascinating. Because we often think of

Before this conversation, I think many of us, or at least I did, when you think of inner voice, when someone says inner voice, kind of think like, yeah, we all have this little inner voice and it says some things from time to time and it's there, but I'm me and I'm living my normal life and I'm still performing cognitively. I'm still in control, right? But what you just said, and I agree, if you actually reflect on it, actually the disproportionate vast majority of time

You're actually being consumed by that inner voice. And we're so numb and desensitized to it that we don't even realize it anymore. And instead of like an inner voice being kind of like this little bird on our shoulder tweeting from time to time. It's actually a monster. It's like a huge monster like in our head that's just there every day. It's almost like you're being possessed.

You know, like, right. Like, yeah, just to put it like very, like, you know, it can be an extreme example, but it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's in a way like you're being possessed. And it, yeah, it's, it's crazy how much it affects you when you don't even notice. Like, and it reminds me of this again, going with the possession kind of analogy, like

And I don't mean to paint it in such a dark way, but it really reminds me of like, you know, the saying, like the greatest trick the devil ever played was to make you believe he doesn't exist. And I feel like in a way it's like this chatter, like we don't realize how much it actually consumes our waking hours. Yeah. And it's there constantly. It's there right now. Yeah. As I speak. But like, we don't really give it that credit. And we've, and the irony of this is now,

like if we use the you know metaphor and i think it ties in quite nicely unintentionally is that before someone mentioned it you didn't you weren't aware yeah it was just a reflex and you just didn't didn't see it but then once something someone points out something oh that wall looks like this color and once you recognize it then your mind will then put focus energy sort of onto that but it's kind of like the you know thing it's like imagine your mind is

is constantly spending energy. Like you said, when you're boxing, you get drained by thinking about all the movements. So...

beyond just the monster in your head, it's consuming your brain resources. And think about all the shows that we've done. Probably in every show, we've talked about our angst. Like, oh my God, I feel stressed. Or, oh my God, I don't believe I can do this. Or, oh my God, I have this fear. And all of these things are just actually playing in your head.

It's not like they're really reality in that sense. It's your reaction to some type of situation. It's our own internal movie. Yeah. And, you know, how he deals with an industry where he has to have incredible resilience and perseverance, where even if you're an exceptional director, you could put out 20 sort of applications for, you know, and get rejected 19 times. And that causes all kinds of negativity. Yeah.

And so like whenever we wake up, we don't want to wake up. We want to go work out. We don't work out. We don't think this is going to be fun. We come on the show today and we're like, I'm not really feeling it.

All of these things is that chatter in your head. At the same time, think about when you're excited and enthusiastic about stuff. There are moments in your life where like, wow, like I feel I can do anything. All it is is like flipping that mental switch. I found that my negativity and my inner voice is like mostly negative. It's mostly a monster. It's not like an angel. And I feel like, wow, I could be so much more.

if I didn't have a monster in my head all the time. - Dude, I'm like so riffing off of you right now because like, okay, does this relate to you at all? I'm gonna paint a scenario because something you said really resonated with me. And I wanna know if it's just me or do you guys feel the same way? Is that the difference between when you're like super excited and positive about something versus when you're kind of like very negative. - And dreading it. - And dreading about something.

Reflecting right now, I feel like whenever I'm very negative, in a negative state, that chatter, that inner voice that you know, whatever, is just amplified in my head. It's just constant, it's so many voices, it's screaming. But when you're super happy, super excited,

I think more times than not, when I'm like really positive and happy and excited about something, I'm a lot more in the moment at the time. Like I feel myself just like enjoying the moment. I'm in the moment. I'm in the groove. I'm not thinking too much. And you're just in the moment. But when you're negative, it's like you don't even know what's really happening around you, like a few feet from you, because you're just like so stuck in the prison of your own mind.

I don't know if that happens to you guys. Well, you're absolutely right. It's uncanny how you guys have both talked to some of the core points of the research. And I think it's because this really touches on and connects with us as human beings. So they talk about, like I mentioned earlier, like half the time we're not even in the moment. We're like playing back all these...

these movies in our head right and it says that in the book yeah yeah yeah and like I'll get to this in a second I want to address your this particular point but what but but the reason we have an inner voice will then blow your mind away as well it really makes sense but I'll get to that in a second

So they talk about this state that you're talking about of not being in the moment. Because being in the moment is like being in a flow state where all of your mind resources are focused on that particular moment. Like if you go into nature and you experience awe, you're not thinking about anything in the future or in the past. You're actually just appreciating things for what it is. That's like gratitude. But when we then get off that track and we start thinking about

all these crazy things in our head, this inner voice. It's called the default state. And I'll read what he says. He says, this is the activity our brain automatically reverts to when it's not otherwise engaged.

in something in the moment. It's exactly what you're saying. So when you're not engaged in the moment, then your brain then defaults to this sort of like speculative state and it starts wandering. And so we're perpetually slipping away from the present into what he calls this parallel nonlinear world of our minds, involuntarily sucked back inside on a minute by minute basis. And this is always happening to us.

It's fascinating. That's why exercise, that's why, you know, maybe filming, you know, a movie, that's why going into nature and hiking feels so good is because it allows you to, for your brain to actually just rest and focus on the moment. That's all what meditation is, right? And meditation isn't about canceling the thoughts. Like the thing about meditation is that your mind does wander, right?

It's the active meditation is noticing that your mind wandering and then just bringing it back to the present moment in a gentle way. And it's the fact that you're exercising that muscle of like, Oh, why don't you come back? Well, that's, and that's also why it's so hard to like really get good at meditation. Right. Yeah. But it's a skill. It's okay. And so they say, don't judge. It's, it's okay for your mind to wander. And like the science then tells us now why half the time your mind does wander that

That's nature. And you're just training yourself like, oh, my mind just wandered. Okay, well, I've noticed that and now I can bring it back into the present. And I guess that's why, like you said, exercise is so effective because you're literally distracting the chatter with physical resistance. Like physical pain, really. Pain. Yeah. And then you're in the moment of getting through the physical pain

you know, hurdle, I guess. So you can't really like, it just distracts from your inner voice. And it's just a time where you can just, you can just kind of take a break from that chatter. Right. And that's why I think exercise is so one of the reasons why exercise might be so therapeutic to people. Absolutely. Yeah. There. So when you get into like why this happens, so what, here's, here's another thing that's really interesting is,

And again, I'll kind of reference, this is all from the book chatter by Ethan cross. And, um, so he's talking about this and this, again, this we're only on like chapter one, right? There's a lot of stuff in terms of the solutions, but I feel like just relating to the concept and then understanding like why we have an inner voice would be already, we could fill up this whole episode. Right. And I think like the tools themselves are very self-explanatory and we already do them. And we can probably talk about that in the future. Um,

But he talks about neuroscientists involve this concept of neural reuse when discussing the operations of the brain. And what that means, neural reuse, is that the same, imagine like your brain is like a computer. So the same circuitry can do multiple different things. And the reason is that your brain has to do a lot of different things. It has to control your breathing and eating and thinking and all this stuff. And if every piece of the circuitry was separate, then your brain would be like the size of an elephant.

And so the reuse means that you're using the same circuitry like the chip, but it can do multiple different things to get the most out of it. So for instance, the hippocampus,

is a part of the brain that's shaped like a seahorse. And it's deep in the brain. But not only does it create long-term memories, but it also is the part of the brain, I think, that is involved in balance and navigating through space. So two totally different functions, same part of the brain. So it's a very, very talented sort of multitasker. And so I think...

Because your brain has multi-use, then when it's not being used for one thing, then it starts getting used for the other thing. And that's when you start ruminating and then potentially having negative thoughts and stuff like that.

So it's really, really interesting that there's like a biological sort of basis. And of course, we're oversimplifying these things. But it's like a biological basis for why you have these things. And then what happens is like our environments then sometimes push us to move in a direction that may be counterproductive to us.

It's really, really interesting. So why, because you just mentioned it before, like why, what reason does the book give for kind of like the biological reason why we even have this inner voice? Okay. So this is really fascinating. I'll do my best to explain it. And, you know, we're not scientists and everything like that. And so, but it made sense to me, right? So,

You probably also read in Sapiens that human beings have the ability to tell stories and to simulate things. And so we can go into the future and imagine what something is like, and we can kind of go back into the past. So this ability to simulate makes us human, and it kind of differentiates us from animals because we're conscious. And that's part of the reason. The other reason is really, it's a little bit subtle, and let me try to get this right, is that...

You know, like when we're having conversations, you mentioned the term like, oh, I'm really riffing on this. And what that means is that you have a working memory. So whatever I said 10 seconds ago, 20 seconds ago, your mind remembers that. And it's multitasking now. So it remembers what I said. It can play back what I said. But you can then talk and address that topic at the same time. So there's multiple threads going on in your head.

And that actual mechanism is related to the inner voice. The inner voice is a working memory that allows you to play back what happened, what happened 20 seconds ago, 30 seconds ago, so you can react to it. That same inner voice is the shit that's telling you, I need to punch this way, I need to run this way, I need to move my arm this way. So that same inner voice is kind of your working memory, and that's a necessary mechanism for us to respond to the world.

So we can have an actual dialogue and conversation. So the inner voice is kind of like RAM, right? Memory, right? And you can remember these things. But the way it does it is it plays back that stuff in your head. So as I'm talking to you, I remember what you said because it's playing your voice in my head. And then that is your inner voice. That's mind-blowing, isn't he? Can I understand it kind of like it's like an echo? Yes. Okay.

It's like a perpetual echo in your head. Yes. Now going, and I'll quickly pivot and then I'll come back to your comment, right? And use my inner voice. Um,

So pivot back to a little bit. So the ability to engage in mental time travel is an exceedingly valuable feature of the mind, like going forward and going back, like the storytelling piece and the simulation piece, because it allows us to make sense of our experience and experiences in ways that animals can't. And we can also plan and prepare for contingencies in the future. And that's why we're like humans, because we can plan for risk.

So Yuval Harari talks about this and Ethan Cross talks about this as well. And then going back into this time traveling piece, that's part of that sort of inner voice. And then it's also part of that echo. Yeah.

So it's quite interesting that you need to have a working memory to be able to move forward and back. Now they talk about a story, and this is even more interesting, right? I won't get too much into it, but there was this woman who was a neuroscientist, like coincidentally, and she injured her brain and she injured precisely the part of the brain that was the working memory. And she kind of lost her identity because she lost her inner voice, right?

And so, but what was really, really interesting was before she got injured, she was one of those people that had a lot of chatter and negativity in her head. And all of a sudden she lost the chatter. And so it was like, it was, it was cathartic for her because she was like, wow, I'm not, I don't have that negativity anymore. But at the same time, she lost the identity of who she was because she didn't have the inner voice. So the inner voice is the thing that tells you that you're Justin. And without the inner voice, you're not you anymore.

She eventually recovered. Backlog of memory, right? So like for her, I guess, was she just like constantly just living in the moment? Like she was just only aware of the present moment. She had memory, but she didn't have the inner voice. Was that a positive or a negative experience then for her? It was both. It was very, very negative. And that's the moral of the story is that she...

It's not memory memory. Like she still remembered stuff, but she didn't have the echo chamber. So then she didn't have an identity. It was just like reading an encyclopedia, Wikipedia of who she was. No, I like what you're saying with the RAM because the RAM is a really good analogy, right? Because like if you're storing like long-term memory, that goes into the hard drive, right? Yeah. But RAM is like for like the actual operations of the computer. Yes, yes. Yeah.

And again, quote, so being robbed of language and memory on one hand, to your point, Howie, was terrifying and lonely.

the negative aspect. On the other hand, it was ecstatically, euphorically liberating, free from her past identity. She could also be free from all her recurring painful recollections, present stresses and looming anxieties. Without her inner voice, she was free from chatter. So she knew objectively the situation. She had the ROM, she had memory, but she wasn't playing the negativity over and over and over like a negative highlight reel. So she was liberated from that. What's fascinating is the fact that she even remembers the

that that inner voice existed at a certain period of time in her life and she remembers how it made her feel yes and the tone yes but now that inner voice was gone yes and even though the inner voice was like ram yeah you know that it is a is a form of memory that's it's kind of like a mind fuck right so it's kind of like i can't even imagine what that is or what that would feel like

Because to me, the whole inner memory, the inner voice thing is you're so connected. That's you. That's you, exactly. That's you. Well, that's why you're saying she lost her identity. Right. Now, what we don't know is because, again, we're being very on the surface and this is like for fun, is that she eventually had surgery and got the brain, the blood clot removed and then she recovered and, you know, she's fine. So, like...

I think it was after this experience where she then recollected and reflected on that. In the time, maybe she just felt disconnected, but maybe, I don't know if she was able to articulate it. she probably had, you know, family members or close people around her that were telling her a lot of this, how she changed, you know? It might not all have come from her own observations. It might be, you know, her partner or people around her. It'd be like, ooh, you really changed. Like, what is this? And then,

you know, kind of came to that realization. Can I ask you guys something? I don't know if this would, if this was even brought up in chatter at all, but I'm just curious. When you hear your inner voice, do you actually hear a voice or do you just know? I think if you actually heard a voice, you'd just be insane. Do you hear a voice? I hear a voice. A literal voice. Shut up. You hear a literal voice. I hear a literal voice. Like my voice right now.

Like you're hearing an actual voice. Yeah, I hear a voice. No, no, but like in the same way you're hearing my voice at this very moment. What does it sound like? Is it like a little bitch or what? No, they said it's like half, like there's a certain percentage of people that actually hear a voice and other... Yeah, they call it... But is it your voice? They call it insane. Does it sound like you? They call those psychopaths. Does it sound like the same you on the podcast? No, no. Is it your own voice?

I don't know. I mean, I can't. It doesn't sound like me because whenever I hear my voice, I hear it differently all the time. But you literally hear it. I literally hear it. Just like you're hearing my voice. Like talking to me. He's a crazy person. No, I'm serious. Are you serious? Are you joking? I'm not joking. I'm serious. I hear a voice. That's really scary. Yeah. And it's weird because I hear a voice, but at the same time, it's not like it's real time right now.

What is it like? It's hard to describe. It's like I hear a voice, but it's as if, for example, if I told you I hear a voice, but your understanding of what I just said of I hear a voice is the equivalent of a chapter in a book. If I were to try to describe it.

the equivalent. So that's the thing. It's like 4,000 words a minute. Yes. Right? So he's hearing 4,000 words. I'm not even there yet. You guys got ahead. I'm still caught up. Well, he's one of those 2,000 words a minute guys. He's a little slower. I'm still caught up on the fact that you're saying you literally hear a voice like, hey, Howie, like what I just said to you, like that's how you hear it. Like it actually comes out.

In my mind, yes. Like in your mind that you know it's not really there, like other people can't hear it. Is it word by word? No, no, what I'm trying to say is you know that other people can't hear it, but you hear it just the same way as you're hearing me talk right now. Like for example, like what's it saying now?

So what it said was, what the fuck, guys? Right? Like literally something like that. No, like you literally heard it. Is it like subtitles? No subtitles. It's a sound that comes out in my head that I hear. And then...

Schizophrenia. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. When I hear it, but when I hear it, like the what the fuck guys, but the meaning of what the fuck guys, of how I understand it is literally what the fuck guys. You guys can't even keep up to what I'm trying to say. You guys don't have a voice at all. Are you kidding me? There's so much content packed in. There's a lot of context. It's a 4,000 words a minute thing. There's a lot of context to that one line. I could give a shit about the context. I'm just saying you literally hear the voice. Like, I

Like, just that sound on the table right now. Like, you hear it just like you would hear that. Well, not in reality. It's in my mind. Yes. But I hear the voice. No, no, but the only reason you know it's not in reality is because you know other people can hear it. But if, like, let's say I said I heard it, you would think it's a reality? No. Is it word by word? It's like, it's the way I see a photo, you know? It's like, I can understand. If I see text, I can look at the text and understand it.

what that text says, but then it's a lot of information at once. You guys don't have that? We'll do the research. Do you have this, Eric? No. Okay. Because when he asked that question, my immediate reaction in my inner voice was just more like, it's a feeling. Like, I'm like...

you know, it's a feeling. Yeah. That's the general, I think majority of people are like that. Well, just kind of like how some people can like taste colors, right? Yeah. Maybe. Is it, or is that, I can kind of understand what he's saying, but I don't know how, no, I, I intellectually, I fully understand. Have you ever had conversations with yourself like back and forth?

In your mind. Yeah, but I'm very well aware that I'm not actually hearing what those voices are. It's just me thinking in my mind. It's just me meditating. So the thought, does the thought have a sound? No. No. Okay, that's the thing. You can look it up. There's some people that actually have...

They hear sounds. And they're not crazy. It's not about being crazy. They're not all crazy. Well, some thoughts have sounds, but I know it's like just my own voice talking to myself. Like I'm talking to myself. I'm like, okay, Justin, you're being stupid. Yes, yes, yes. I know it's me as well. It's not like I think it's some stranger talking to me. No, I know, but it's not like an actual, I would never characterize it as a real sound that I'm hearing. Because I would always characterize it as, oh, that's my thought. I'm thinking this.

To myself. So this might be able to capture what I hear or imagine more that maybe you guys can relate. You need to get checked, bro. I don't need to get checked. No, I really don't. Honestly. This is the honest drink. For example, what I just said about what the fuck, guys. Right? Like that sound. Yes. It's not like I hear my voice. I literally play back some point in my life that I've heard that phrase spoken by somebody.

just pop out. I think that's even worse. Really? Because if it's your own voice, it's like, yeah, we all hear our own voices, right? Like you hear your own voice when you talk to yourself, right, Eric? That's not crazy. Are you kidding me? But the fact that you're hearing a different voice other than yourself in your own head. Because it's like a playback of a memory.

That's a demonic possession. It's a demonic. You're characterizing a demonic possession. The closest thing I can think of is like movies where this shit happens. Yes. Movies, right? Where you hear another thing in your head. I literally just saw The Conjuring 3 yesterday. Oh, it came out? Yeah. The Conjuring 3. Is it good? It's pretty good.

What's The Conjuring 2 and 1? Great film. Conjuring 1 is amazing. There's a scary movie called The Conjuring, and they've made sequels. It's about demonic possessions. Yeah.

right? It's like the exorcist, you know, stuff like that. It's in the same vein. No, no, no. Like seriously, like what you're describing is demonic possession. Hey, you know what's interesting? Maybe that's why you can't get any sleep. Like that's why you're like, you look like a hot mess every time. Because when you read, when you read about those, like the, the, the,

the crazy like the psycho people that do crazy things they say it's a voice oh it's a voice that told me and they never say it's their own voice they always say it's a different voice and I believe it and they can't they can't stop it and they can't stop it and they can't describe it but they know it's not their own voice like all these serial killers like that go crazy like that's what they say you know what that equals equals you guys better watch out

No, I'm... We are scared. Like, I'm literally scared. My inner voice is going to tell me to get the fuck away from your outer voice. I'm so shocked you guys don't have this. I'm shocked. We're normal. I'm actually scared to be alone with you in a room from now on. Like, you're laughing. I'm not laughing. It is a bit scary. But it does explain... Like...

When you and I debate, argue... It explains a lot, though. Right. When you and I debate and argue... It explains a lot. Like, when you and I... When Justin and I debate and argue, especially for me, some of my dysfunction, it just comes... It's like anger management. It's from, like, certain things that happened in my childhood. It's more just, like, emotional outbursts. But there's no, like, demonic stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

But when we talk about Howie and some of the weirdest... He just threw a trump card on the table. He was just like, fuck all your self-help bullshit. I'm possessed by a demon. He's like, he just told us that Haha Monsters has four people. Oh, you have chatter? That's cute. I'm possessed by a demon. You have chatter? I have an army. He's like, every show...

Like our listeners are like, oh, you guys are so funny. The three guys. And then Howie's like, what do you mean three guys? There's four. Wow. No, seriously. But that's never like bothered. Okay. Clearly it bothers you, right? No. It doesn't bother you. Did it start at a certain point in life or has it always been? It's normal. When was the first time you heard this other Howie? This voice. Yeah.

Okay, so I think because maybe we have the same thing, we're just describing it differently. No. No. Because I literally, because the way my brain works, it's just constant flashes of things that I've experienced that make up the thought process of...

So, for example, what I just said. Okay, so you don't actually hear a voice. It's playback. It's like I hear sounds. I hear the sound. It's a voice. It's a sound. So you're not thinking the sounds. You literally hear the sounds. Okay, so that's the thing. So this whole research of a percentage of people hear the voice and a percentage of people don't.

I think it also comes down to how you describe it, right? So for me, the way I was describing it, just like you said, it's a feeling. Well, technically, yes, it's a feeling for me too because I'm understanding the context of the phrase or word or whatever, the thought, right? A lot more complex than what it actually is, which just went over your head. I just saw your eyes glaze over. No, no, no. I get that.

So I'm saying that it may be the same thing. It's just that I have like my sensitivity to sound or whatever maybe is more high than you guys. I don't know. No, I don't think it has anything to do with sensitivity to sound. Look it up. I think it's just the very fact that you're even characterizing as a sound. Yeah. Like I would never characterize my own inner thought as a literal sound.

It's not like a literal sound, it's thoughts in my head. And I would use the, maybe I would phrase it as like a voice, but I think that's very colloquial, that's very common for people to phrase that as a voice, but we're all very well aware it's not a literal voice, it's a thought, right? Yeah.

But you're saying it's a literal sound. And that's where I'm caught up. And that's where I'm worried. But here's the thing, because I understand it's a thought. It's not like I'm staking it as another person or whatever. But you were very clear about it being a sound. Like a literal sound. It is a sound. Yes, I hear a sound. I hear a sound. Okay. All right, we'll let go of that one. You need to see a doctor. I don't need to see a doctor. You need to see a priest. A priest. You need to go to the Vatican and book an appointment.

I mean, they need to check this out. I know. This is, well, without sort of like crossing a line here, this is like the early signs when like, you know, in America when like those really bad things happen and then they saw these things like this guy started posting here, posting here, and then something really bad happens where lots of people, you know, meet their end. Yeah. And they're like, oh, why didn't we notice this before? And then like the friends are like, yeah, I did talk to him. He had these inner voices. He could hear these sounds, you know? Yeah.

This is the pivotal moment. Yeah. Yeah, this is the first time you ever said this. You're lucky that, like, I mean, we're not in... We've never discussed this. Yeah.

Like you're lucky we're not in the U.S. because like they might just get them. Who's they? They. They'd be like listening to these podcasts. Which group? I mean. You know, it would be funny if all of a sudden like a bunch of priests are knocking on a door and they're like all ready. There's like crosses. Yeah, crosses. Yeah. With like holy water. Not even priests, like they're Muslim. It's just like a random other religion. Yeah.

But the downside of this, and let's kind of like talk a little bit more about the downside of this, right? Because now we know that this thing kind of exists and we all have it. And it kind of puts a name and, you know, some context to it. So, like this ability to be able to think creatively, to have this conscious thought and all this stuff, right? You have this powerful circuitry.

very powerful. It's like a supercomputer. But then if you give the supercomputer and you put a virus in it, which is kind of what happens to your inner voice, then it could have really, really negative type of consequences. I don't even think it's like a virus. You know, like sometimes you need to defrag your computer or like clean out a lot of like old files. Right? You need to maintenance the memory of your computer sometimes, right? Like I think it's that. What generation are you in? You don't need to do that anymore? No.

Like my knowledge of computers, obviously, you know is very limited. You're like in 2000. You know something? Defrag. You don't defrag anymore? Look, I think that... Is that not a thing? Seriously, is that not a thing anymore? I think defrag is an interesting analogy. I don't think it's the appropriate one. The reason is this. Because the inner voice, the problem with the inner voice is that it keeps playing over and over and over the same thing. And that's kind of like a virus. So essentially, you have a supercomputer and you give it the wrong code.

And then it just keeps executing that code over and over and over. And it's sort of, it's self-destructive, right? So I'll read you another passage. And I think this is really, this is the outcome. If you get your mind in the wrong state, chatter in the form of repetitive anxious thought

It's a marvelous saboteur. It sabotages, right? It attacks when it comes to the tasks that you work on. Countless studies reveal how harmful it is. It leads students to perform worse on tests. Tests are important in China. Produces stage fright, so when you're speaking, and a tendency to catastrophize, which means like you think the worst among artistic performers.

So you might be like, you know, playing the piano and then you forget all your, the music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And it undermines negotiations in business. Right.

One study found, for instance, that this type of anxiety from chatter led people to make lower initial offers when they're negotiating businesses, earn less money, and do worse at their jobs. So this is a prevalent mental issue. Oh, no, it's definitely a real thing. And that's why, like, is there anything in the book that speaks to the correlation of the intensity of what the chatter is

with the higher perceived stakes of the situation or task, right? Because just like what you had just mentioned, to me, when, you know, in my life, I have had certain situations

extremely nervous situations, right? Like if I was about to perform for the first time in front of an audience or I was doing something that I thought was super important and critical that I nail, right? Like I've had moments where I was like super, super nervous. And every time in those moments where I'm so nervous right before I'm about to go on stage or do something or whatever,

I go blank, right? But when I'm in the shower days before preparing for it, everything comes like super clear, super crisp. I'm like fucking the smartest man on earth, right? But right before I'm doing the pass when I'm super nervous, I'm always struggling to remember the most basic things. And so I'm fascinated and curious about what the correlation is with our perceived stakes when it comes to this chatter, right?

So, brilliantly, this book actually, it talks about this particular aspect. And so, what it says is that, like, when the stakes are high and you find yourself, and inevitably in those situations, you're overwhelmed by emotion because, like, this is it, right? You've been building up to it. And when you're building up

with emotion and this sort of anxiety, what this part of your brain does is it harnesses your intention because now you're like the stakes are bigger. So it basically takes all the CPU power and directs it

But then it then sometimes malfunctions and directs it at the specific obstacles that we encounter to the exclusion of everything else. And then it hyper focuses in that moment. So like before, like days before, you're not that emotional about it because it's not yet time. Yeah. And so you're not there. You're not dressed up. You're not in that specific atmosphere. So your brain actually doesn't hyper focus. And so...

this goes back to like fight or flight that we've talked about with like Matt Beadle. Remember that? And so it's like when the stakes are high, when that lion is there, then your mind and your body devote and it channels all the energy into that one area. And sometimes it latches onto the wrong thing and then it malfunctions. But it almost like consistently does that. Like,

Have you been in that position recently that you can actually take out and talk about? Not like super recently, but I've been in that situation many, many times. And I feel consistently the chatter is always a saboteur rather than a helper. Interesting. In those most nervous, most high stakes situations. And I'm wondering why that is. And I'm wondering if that is the common situation

scenario and it's the outliers like the Michael Jordans of the world that it works differently for them where they're able to like rise and be even better in those high stakes situations rather than crumble and I'm just I'm wondering is are most of the population the crumblers and it's the

few people, the very few percentage of the population that are opposite and actually perform better under those high stress situations. Therefore, you know, that's why you only have one Michael Jordan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm just wondering, because in all the situations that I can call back to, even in objectively non-high stakes situations, but even just nervous situations. For example, going back to my boxing analogy, because this is, I go to boxing because this is the most literal physical representation of it, right?

The first time, like I've been training for years, right? And boxing, training, punching bags, learning combos, learning technique with my coach, hitting the pads, right? Blah, blah, blah. You're feeling good. And I remember the first time that I went to spar a real live opponent, like full live sparring.

I was super, super nervous before I got in the ring. I was like super nervous where my legs went soft and- - Really? - Yeah. I was super nervous. I was super nervous not in the, it had nothing to do with like getting hurt or anything like that.

I was super nervous in that I didn't want to let myself down because you build up all this confidence training, right? And you build up all this, you have an inflated ego, right? And you're fucking like, yeah, I've been training for all these years. I can hit the heavy bag like this. I know these combos, you know, I'm fucking, I'm fucking killing it. Right. And so you build up your own ego and your own confidence and you build yourself up and you put yourself up on a pedestal. But when it's time to actually spar somebody, right?

It's like, okay, well, this is the moment of truth. And the last thing you want is to get exposed to yourself as like you're nowhere near as good as you thought you were, you know? And it's very, it hurts the ego, right? And it crushes the confidence. And so the first time I was about to spar, I was super, super nervous. My legs went soft and I couldn't even, I swear to you,

before the bell rang, like, well, like, you know, the metaphorical bell rang for, you know, to spar. I couldn't even remember how to throw a punch.

Any punch. You? Yeah. I just like, I couldn't remember. That's a shock to me. Like physically I can, but like in my mind, I'm like, how the fuck do I throw a punch? You psych yourself out. That's crazy. Like I don't know what to do. Like I felt like I didn't even, I've never trained. That seems like. Like mentally I felt like I've never trained. Like I don't even know how to throw a punch. I can't even feel my legs. I have no idea what to do. All the shit that I thought in my head before then just went completely out the window. Yeah.

And that is like an extreme picture and a very literal picture of what I'm talking about. But similar situations have happened time and time again in my life in my most nervous moments. And look, and many times I power through it, I get through it and it's fine, right? But it's that moment right before where I just feel like I've lost all hope and all ability.

And so this kind of ties exactly into, I think, what you're saying. And I can very much relate to that. And I have to imagine that you're not the only one, that you're not the only one that's gone through this. And it's easy to think of yourself in that moment paralyzed. The word is really paralyzed. And I felt that same thing where it's like,

Because like, it's almost like you get into a trance and after it, right? Whether it's a speech or a presentation or a boxing match or whatever it is, and then you have time to think. And maybe it's only 10, 20, 30 minutes of reflection. You go back and you're like, what was wrong with me? Like, why couldn't I do anything? I think another kind of strange example is like, sometimes you get in an argument with someone

And then like in the moment you like someone like has a zinger and like cuts you down and then you're just so fucking pissed. And then you want to come back with something strong and,

And then you can't think of anything. Like in that moment, your mind's kind of blank and you just can't think of anything. And then like 20 minutes later, you think of like 30 different things you could have said to the person to like, basically it's like a punch. And you were in that moment, like you, you could have like punched, you could have jabbed, you could have hooked, you could have crossed and you couldn't think of anything. And I think like a lot of people go through this experience. I think everyone can kind of relate to this moment and it's not just you or me or whatever, but,

And it's paralyzing. And what's really interesting is the book talks a little bit about this. They contrast this to what happened to the pitcher, Rick Ankeel, was that when he was doing a similar movement with the pitch, you got to throw it 100 miles an hour in the perfect place. What he did, they characterized it as he unlinked

So these 20 different movements, he unlinked them all and all of a sudden his mind had to manage all 20 movements at the same time and he couldn't do it anymore. And I feel like that describes you whereas I couldn't even remember all this stuff because you were trying to use that other part of your brain to manage it and that other part of your brain as a stress response

took over because the emotional moment of the situation was so high. Similar to Rick, right? When he had to pitch the ball to the plate in that movement, he couldn't do it. But he could throw a 100-mile-hour ball to you, but in that moment when he was thinking about that specific thing, the wrong part of his brain took over. Yeah. It's like when you need it the most, it lets you down, right? Interesting. But I'm curious to

To know, like, does the research say anything about why some people excel in these moments and why some people crumble? There are seven chapters in the book. We talked about really the first two.

about the issue and the scientific background. Chapters three through seven talk about the techniques that people use to overcome them. And there are ones that you actually unconsciously do all the time. You might not realize. And I don't necessarily think it's people who have the ability versus don't have the ability. I think it's more like people who use the techniques versus don't use the techniques. It's not a mix. Can you like really quickly just like, just mention some of the techniques? I think we need to wait till the next episode.

Ooh, a little cliffhanger. Yeah. A little cliffhanger. These are things you already do. Like what? Like what? Okay, I'll say... Like what's one thing? Okay. This deserves a whole episode, okay? Okay, I know, but you gotta give me something. I will share a personal example. And I'll try to... And how we don't like... Don't divulge my personal information to the whole world. Why are you calling me out on that? Because you did it last time.

So, and it's not my brother, but anyways, there's a, there's a person in my family that I, that I care about deeply recently, you know, who has been doubting themselves a little bit and, you know, had some stress and, and, and I mean, this is a really smart person. It's not my brother, by the way, but a smart person, a lot of success and their life. And, you know, it's a good person, like a really good person, great values. Right. Yeah.

And this person had a couple of setbacks and started doubting themselves and all this stuff. And so I was talking to this person today and they were like, man, I just can't get anything right. I'm so stressed out. I got all these things going on. I can't do this. And, you know, like I got to take care of this thing. And it was a little bit overwhelming and I was overwhelmed by the whole thing. And I kind of stepped back a little bit and I was like, I really want to help this person. So I said, hey, like,

Like, I kind of understand what you're going through. Like, I had some similar situations, you know, and I let the person talk about it. I said, you know, I think a lot of people go through this stuff. I don't think it's just you. I think like we all struggle with this thing. There's many people that struggle with this thing. You need to tell yourself like, hey, you're not alone on this one.

People go through this. And I shared some examples that were similar. And I'm like, people that this person might think is really capable had even worse situations. And so I kind of zoomed out for this person and said, wow, like everyone kind of goes through this in their own way. Don't be a victim. Don't think, don't keep using I, I.

I'm feeling this. I have this challenge. I, I, I, I, I. It's like, hey, a lot of people are going through similar things. It's not easy. Definitely not easy. And zoom out a little bit. And then don't use the word I. Say the word you. And encourage yourself. And then I connected this back to the conversation we had a couple weeks ago.

just keep going. This is what you came for. Remember that when I was running that race and I was unconscious. This is before I read the book. Yeah. And this is back streets back. Yep. Back streets back.

I'm glad that people recognize that reference. And this is from Kate and this is from Scott Jurek and some really talented runners. And so there's nothing in this book that I think that people don't know. It's just that the science behind it backs it up. And so one of the techniques they say is that don't refer to yourself as I and then get into your little pity party, zoom out and start talking to yourself like, hey, Justin,

Hey, Eric, you can do this. So start talking to yourself like outside of yourself as a third person. Yeah. And then what they talk about is when you... Like a coach. Yeah, like a coach. And when you look at like great athletes and they overcame something, because athletes really go through a lot of mental shit.

Oh, yeah. Of course. Like, athletes probably go through the toughest mental thing that anyone goes through because it's so competitive. And they then kind of deconstructed a lot of statements from top athletes when they went through something terrible. And what they realized was, like, the really successful ones were like, all right, LeBron, you can do this. And LeBron would talk about LeBron...

like in the third person or in the second person. Oh, this is what he said? Yeah, yeah. Like LeBron was an example. And so when he made that decision, right? Like remember like when he left the Cavaliers to the Heat, he had to step out of the situation and be objective about it. Okay, LeBron's got to do what's good for LeBron.

- But I bet he talks like that all the time anyway. - Well, that's why he's LeBron. - LeBron says he wants a Gatorade. - Yeah, yeah. And so like I was talking to this family member and I started using, I'm like, I really get what you're feeling. I think I feel it too. And I said, I think that a lot of people go through this, that's just you, what you need to do is say, hey, and I started using some of these techniques of zooming out a little bit, using the second person, using the third person, providing the perspective.

And it was helpful to this person. I'm glad. Interesting. So there's a lot of techniques in here. Every single technique here is nothing new. You'll be like, oh, I did that before. It's just using it consistently. You know, I just want to share a story. What you just said right there triggered something that happened recently that actually used that technique and actually worked. Okay. Yeah. So I was...

Keep going. Yeah, because I was on a shoot, right? And I was in a position where I was doing this like trick shot, right? And we didn't test it. And so we're on site. All these people on site, clients on site. We don't have time to test it. We're just going to go with it. And then the cameraman did it and not good. Like really off. And technically, I didn't know how to remedy it. He did not know how to remedy it.

But this was like one of the money shots, you know? And everyone was like, what the fuck is going on? This looks horrible, right? And then all of a sudden, you hear the warping sound. I'm like, whoa, what the fuck am I going to do? That was just in his head, by the way. Yeah. No, but did you literally hear it? Yeah.

Sound did get muted. Yeah, I became in my own world. Everything became slow motion kind of thing. Yeah, so I got caught in the moment where all of a sudden everyone just looks at me.

Like, what am I gonna do? Right? And I kept saying to myself, I'm like, I don't know how to fucking fix this. I'm not a goddamn DP. Right? It's like, and like, it's like, I didn't have time to fucking test this. You know, we have the budget to test this. And also I'm like, I, I, I, right? Yeah. I'm like, what the fuck am I gonna do? And literally, like the first AD next to me is like, Howie, should we just, do we just do it and just like force it through? Or like, you know, do you want to talk to client? And they're asking me all these questions. I'm like, shut up. One second. Just give me a second.

And I was like, give me 10 minutes. Everybody, just 10 minutes. Stand down. And so all of a sudden, I changed it to like, all right.

what do you know about animation? You know, like, yes, you cannot remedy the way you're doing it now, but what do you know about this type of technique that maybe you can utilize? I'm like, okay, well, you have done like multiple cameras before. We don't have multiple cameras on set, but what can we do with what we have on set? Like I'm asking these questions to myself and all of a sudden it became clear. Also, I'm like, okay, well,

maybe you can do this and then blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and then I'm like boom come over here quick meeting five minutes everybody chill we had a quick meeting and everyone started giving their two cents like yeah you can do that and we can do that blah blah blah blah I'm like boom let's do it and the whole fucking plan changed like 180 degrees if you know anything about production if everything is laid out pre-production and you're changing everything by like

really like flipping upside down, you don't normally do that because everything is like a well oiled machine. Everything's set up to go a certain way. And you're literally taking the train and be like, we're going backwards and going left. You know what I mean? You can't, it's a fricking train. And so we, so with the talent of all the teams on site,

We figured it out and like did it. But it was that moment of- Asking yourself questions. Like I broke down. You got outside of yourself. Yeah. For like three minutes, I was like- You were like howie. Sweat pouring out. Sweat. I'm like this client's right next to me. There's like 80 people on set. And I'm just like, everyone's staring at me. I'm like-

what am I gonna fucking do? And then, but the second that for some reason, like naturally translate to, you know, you, you, you, and then, you know, utilizing experience and stuff like that to try to come up with a solution, everything calmed down. And yeah, we know these techniques. We don't always use them. And to quickly go back to what you were saying, it's like, Justin, why does this happen in the big moments? And I just like, I just, it dawned on me when you're in the shower, like,

Like you have the gift of time. So in that shower, in that moment, you can do anything because there's not that pressure. But like with Howie, in that moment with everyone around him, he has to deliver in that moment. And when that happens, that part of your brain, the amygdala, whatever that Matt was talking about gets activated. And how do you pivot to not letting that brain run that project? And this ability to step back and outside is critical.

So you brilliantly described it. And a lot of it is just asking yourself questions as well. It's not just like giving yourself advice, like you can do it, you can do it. It's like, what do you know about this? What can you do about it? And what that allows you to do is to step back from this echo chamber because you're really having kind of a panic attack. And think about it. How can you, if you're a firefighter, go fight a fire when you're panicked? Because you put yourself in a panic mode.

And you can't do that. And so this is the first technique that they talk about. There's probably 10 or 15 techniques we can talk about the next show. I'll just share the scientific description of this one that Howie just described. It's called distant self-talk. Using distant self-talk. And one way to create distance and get out of the echo chamber is using language. And when you're going through a very difficult experience where your brain is going to activate in that way, use your name and the second person you to refer to yourself.

So like, Howie, what are you going to do about this? And the reasons why is doing so is linked with less activation and the part of the brain associated with the inner chatter and the negativity and leads to much better performance under stress and less negative emotion. And it's called distance self-talk. It's very similar to what Matt was saying. Matt Beadle was saying was that your brain has all these different circuits and how do you activate that other one? That...

Trigger is changing the language. You know what's brilliant? What you just said right there, because going back again, I'm back on set.

Before I started asking myself questions and stuff like that, it was literally layer upon layer of you're fucked. You know what I mean? Everyone's fucking staring at you. You're an idiot. I can't believe you didn't fucking force yourself to test this shit. You wasted all this time. Like the worst voices. Like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. That's the fragmentation you're talking about. The defrag. And those voices just compound. It's like layers. But the second that...

I was like, stop. And then we have to ask ourselves questions. Literally not one of that fragmentation, that negativity layer stepped in. Not one time. It was just pure question, result. Question, result. Question, result. There's none of that negativity of that fucking devil on your shoulder. Yeah, it's interesting that that works. Yeah.

Because in the moment, I didn't think about it at all. I did not analyze until we had this conversation. And now you're calling back to that moment. Yeah, because going back to what you said about boxing, Justin...

I mean, I can relate to that when I used to play darts competitively, right? And like... Humble bragging. Not bragging at all. Everybody listening, he is actually not joking. He literally used to play competitive darts. Let me recap for you. That's not a joke. Let me recap for you. I know it's easy to think that he's like completely joking and it's just comic...

but it's a real thing. He used to play darts competitively. And let me quickly recap. Howie Lamb, he's just as handsome as he appears on video, if not more so. Okay. He's an award-winning director, commercial director. He's made films. He's a competitive dart player. A really stroking...

A pitcher. Stroking him right now. A pitcher. And not only that, he has an internal voice that he can hear. Amazing. Well, maybe that's what allows him to do all these things. Anyway, what were you saying? No, what I'm saying is that when doing darts and you're in that competitive moment. Because there's no higher stakes situation than competitive darts. The stakes are so high. Competitive darts. Because you look behind you, you see this dude twirling his dart, waiting for his throw. With a long mustache. Exactly. You see the five people in the crowd watching you throw.

Trying to hit that bullseye. Yeah. I mean, you can relate to like Michael Jordan. Yo, the stress kicks in. Simone Biles. Like, you know. You know what they feel. Yeah. The stress kicks in. Because you play darts. The stress kicks in. I'm like, what if I don't hit that bullseye? My life's over. You know? You know. You know. You know the feeling. But anyway, so that negative chatter, I hear that as well, even in fucking darts. But anyway. All right. That was a great conversation, guys.

Thanks, Eric, for bringing this in. Yes. The book is called what? Chatter? Chatter by Ethan Cross. K-R-O-S-S. Cross. Check it out. Yeah, there are a lot of new books coming out. They're not paying us. I wish they were. I wish Ethan knew that I was plugging him, but he doesn't. Well, why don't we reach out to Mr. Cross? Yeah, let's get him on the show. Sure. Yeah. That's something I really want to do is start getting more authors onto the show and talk about the books they write. Anyway...

I just want to make a quick reminder. This is something that we haven't had a chance to say, is that we are also now available in China on Wang Yi Yun. Wang Yi. Yeah. So if you want to listen to our show and you are more accustomed to using Wang Yi as an app, you can find our show on there. We have all our episodes on there so far.

Some of our episodes have been taken down, but... On Shimalaya. On Shimalaya, but on Wang Yi, they're all still there. So if there's any episodes that were taken down that you want to listen to, you can find it on Wang Yi, just letting you know. Do what you will with that information. Anyway...

Now, we really appreciate all the support we've been getting. Podcast has been growing and we really appreciate it, guys. This is not something we thought people would even really want to listen in a thousand years. But, you know, we're very happy that many of you do and we can relate to you guys. So we love you. Be good. Be well. This is The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. And I'm Howie.

And I'm Howie's inner voice. I'm Howie's demonic voice. Good one, Eric. Okay, we're going to leave it on this. Howie, you need to get some help. Yes. Cheers, guys. Cheers. Okay, peace.