Who Do Washington Post Boycotts Hurt? Not Jeff Bezos.
53:35 Share

Hello and welcome to late money, your guy to the business and finance news of the week i'm Emily packed and i'm here with Elizabeth pyres of the new year times and slate hello and info felix senate is the wonderful anish mansky of writers hanna.

hello.

So today on the show there is an election coming up. We're gona talk about that. But first we're gona talk about the drama at the washington post, which lost quarter millions describers this week after the paper s owner, some guy, some CEO kinder guy, I don't know which guy decided, uh, the paper wouldn't run a presidential endorsement.

We're gona talk, yes, about the election, what trump presidency or Harris presidency might mean for the economy. We are gonna at companies maybe cracking down on people for abusing their perks and benefits, especially in big tech. And if you're sleep plus subscriber, there is even a special bonus episode for you all about a new york times, the article that is quite sympathetic on the parents of jailed and disGrace crypto executives from F, T, X. That's all coming up on slight money.

If you love iphone, you'll love apple card. IT comes to the privacy and security you expect from apple plus you earn up to three percent daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interests when you open a high yield savings account through apple card.

Apply for apple card in the wallet APP subject to credit approval, savings is available to apple card owners subject to eligibility, apple card and savings by golden sex bank U, S, A, C, city branch number F, D, I, C, terms and more at apple card 点 com。 This episode is brought you by global x. Since two thousand and eight, global x etf has been committed to empowering investors with an explorer intelligent solutions.

Global x specializes in exchange traded funds that offer exposure to the intelligence ecosystem, including themes like data centers, robotics, semiconductors and cloud computing. To learn more about global access, entire sweet of etf from cover calls, fixed income, emerging markets and more, visit global x etf 点 com。 Okay, so this week, the washington post decided IT wouldn't run its endorsement of surprise, surprise, commoner Harris.

And we learned the reason why I was pulling its endorsement was because jeff bizz, who owns washington post, you know, big billionaire type, didn't want them to run IT. He ran an editorial explaining why people didn't like the editorial explaining why he insisted in IT this wasn't about quid procol. He wasn't doing this because he was worried about trump or the kind of retribution A P second trump term could rain down on anyone of his companies.

He was doing IT because enorme ments don't matter anymore. And that's that's just the truth. That's that's what he said. No one seemed to truck with this argument. And what instead happens, people got very upset, really, kind of surprisingly, to make my mean, really upset the last endless times. The week before their billionaire war also said they weren't going to do an endorsement.

People got moderately upset, but because of who baz us is, I think, and because of what the washington post is and how two thousand sixteen they change their slogan to democracy, dies in darkness and got a trump bump, because people are expecting them to be kind of like the paper of record for the resistance or something. This is like a really big turn for them. Asos, huge. They lost more than two hundred and fifty thousand subscribers as we're taping, just like a huge ten percent chunk of their subscribers are really big bite out of their business.

Yeah, if if you ever wanted to use the word defined correctly because you're a language pedant, this is the appropriate place to use IT that their subscriber base was literally designated.

So yeah so elisabeth, i've see a lot of people arguing this is no way to respond because it's hurting the journalist at the washington post. This boy cot is is bad for that reason. I mean, what do you make of that argument?

It's important to understand, you know why the boycott is happening. I don't think it's because people believe that newspaper should make newspaper endorsements. It's the last minute interference from a billionaire war.

And secondly, the the kind of people who actually subscribed newspapers are high information people. They are not like Normal news consumers and they are much more engaged in these issues. And thirdly, the washing specifically is in dc.

It's a sort of the paper for covering politics and particularly electoral politics. So IT has a very different impact than the only times or even the new york times. So I don't think it's the reaction isn't totally surprising in the sense that if this kind of reaction we're onna happen anywhere, the washington post would be exactly where would have happened. And I just don't think IT really has to do with whether people think endorsements are important, which I I would agree at the in presidential level, they probably aren't. But we do see effects and downbeat elections that make them important.

Do you think the boy cot itself was effective, anna?

I mean, we won't know it's effect whether or not it's effected for a while, but I would say in terms of impacting jeff bases in anyway, absolutely not like he makes us money from A W. S. This is a vanity project for him now whether maybe he heard his pride slightly, okay, fine, but in terms of who IT would impact more, I mean, to be pregnant, they probably would impact act al journalists more than it's got impact jeff zoo.

But I guess one argument would be that the boy cot, though I might not impact jeff basis or maybe even change anything at the post and at least is drawing attention to an issue that might not like. If not for the boy cut, we would not be talking about IT at all. So is the boy cot sort of like an effective form of collective action on the part of subscribers?

Now I think IT is, but that's because cuts or not, they're not just designed to damage a target economically. In this case, you have somebody like basis who does care about appearances and probably you only broke the editorial defending his decision after there was a big backlash.

But you even more importantly for the post internally, after this decision was made, half the opinion, coldness, route columns, you criticising the decision and IT made the sort of new side people who were covering bazas, I think, double down on their bezos coverage. So are sort of unanticipated consequences like that are unanticipated for basso. I think a lot of people who are newspaper owners don't understand what motivates journalists are why this would be, you know, a big morale problem internally.

And I think that makes IT more difficult for people at the newspaper to do their job. So at the boy cot wasn't just about giving basis a hit financially, which agree with anna IT has no effect on that whatsoever. It's about a gender setting and really you pulling the issue to the forefront.

yeah. And it's certainly could change BIOS actions moving forward just in the sense that he might try to make sure that a either don't interfere with anything editorially or if he's going to do something and there could be the appearance of interference like try to make sure that there is not the appearance of interference.

But I don't know whether or not this was a quit por co or just a mistake, who knows? But it's IT was like a mess up regardless. IT was bad governance regardless because you should have thought .

through how this could look. It's very trigger ing for people who are already, as we talked about last week, worried about the billionaires and business interest and you know the potential presidency of of danny trump o you know, he enacts revenge against his enemies and he favors his friends. So it's a totally pragmatic decision.

We don't know BIOS is reasoning like that sounds like we're skeets ticals of his explanation that he just doesn't like endorsements. You know it's pragmatic though. If i'm A C E O or a business leader like and i'm looking at a potential presidency, I have government contracts to think about at my mei businesses that makes sense that you would pull the endorsement IT like doesn't actually make business sense at my wrong to be like the defender of democracy in this instance.

I I do think this raises the interesting in question of in this increasingly partisan era, and especially unfortunately potentially Donald trump presidency, how dangerous this is to be a business wor who owns at newspaper because regardless of this, you know, endorsement, the post is a very liberal newspaper. And most newsnight lets have political sides, whether it's conservative or liberal. And if you are also a business owner, and as you said, you do also have all of these potential government contracts, IT does raise the question of this.

This make sense. I think you make sense not to endorse in that case, but know if you're looking at we're more gona talk about this and a little bit the potential comes of a trip presidency versus, uh, Harris presidency. They consent this with most economists as that Harris would be Better for business. And I think that cuts against people's perceptions about partisan you know which parties Better on the economy?

That is a weird contradiction. But what Better for business would make sense because if Donald trump is going to be, you know, picking winners and losers based on who says nice things about him, that means he is in fact worse for business and then and is arguing, and definitely worse for anyone with a journalism or newspaper media business.

Here's we all be synthetic to you people who want media companies, especially if there, you know, in the middle of these big issues, you have to have a tough time to do that. Because what IT happens is you if if you if your company is doing IT well, everybody else with any kind of power will call you and lobby you and traditional you into, uh, Better coverage.

And if you're going to be a media company owner, you really have to just say, i'm going to be totally hands off and then you can turn to those people and say, sorry, you know, it's just my editorial team. I don't interfere. And I think that's that's the best policy because then you .

can be consisted about IT and BIOS has just made that thousand times a million times harder. He can't say that. He can say, well, you know, I just let them do their thing. I don't interfere. Since he just wrote a post explaining how he interfered red at the last minute to put the endorsement is actually really not a smart move at all. By that reasoning, do you guys think boycotts are an effective form of collective action and protest in terms of like making a state and drawing a attention to an issue, like instead of like going on to the streets, to the washington post headquarters, you with picket signs or something, or with science that a boy cot might be like a really effective thing to do? I would say .

that boycott only have work historically when they've drawn more attention to an issue. And that has created other actions outside.

Just the with Charles .

was to cain is his favor, should be run out of committee.

should be found to on the I am publish of the inquiry is my pressure to with a decent, hardworking people in this community, aren't rough, blind by a pack .

of money is.

This episode is brought to you by giving, well, you like to optimize things. You've chosen the perfect credit card to maximize your travel points, and you always find the fastest route when you drive. Should you handle your charitable giving the same way, give oil, spends fifty thousand hours every year doing deep dives into different charitable programs to help you do the most good for your dollar?

Giving well has now spent over seventeen years researching charitable organizations and only direct funding to a few of the highest impact opportunities they found over one hundred thousand donors have used gift well to donate more than two billion dollars. Rights evidence suggests that these donations will save over two hundred thousand lives and improve the lives of millions more giva once as many donors as possible to make informed choices about high impact, giving all of their research recommendations is available on their site for free. And you can make tax deductable donations to their recommended funds or charities.

And giveaway doesn't take a cut, give to give well dot work to find out more, or make a donation like podcast and undersleeves a checked to make sure they know you heard about them from again, let's give well that work to donate or find out more. When you think about businesses growing their sales beyond forecasts, you think about a product with demand, a focus, brand influence driven marketing. But the often overlook secret is the business is behind the business, making selling simple for millions.

That business is shop fy. Nobody does selling Better than shoplifting home of the number one check out on the planet. And the not so secret secret shop fy with shop pay can boost conversions by up to fifty percent, meaning wave your cards going abandoned and more sales.

So if you're growing your business, your commerce platform Better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web in your store, in their fee, and everywhere in between businesses that sell more, sell on choppy, upgrade your business today. Sign up for a one dollar per man trial period. M lasselle flash.

funny. Now, as we have teazed, effectively, we will turn to just a small, a small little issue, just a small minor thing. What would a Donald trump presidency or a Harris presidency mean for the economy? So as far as I could tell when I comes to trump, I think the big the big thing is for Harris, it's sort of like more of the same.

I don't see her policies as all that different from what we're currently living with. So you would think it's more status s qual. The economy is a relatively good shape right now.

Not much to see there with trump. He is proposing a lot of big changes. I think he has said he would be amenable to getting rid of income taxes altogether in in favor of terriers.

Regardless, he wants to do big time terf s. He wants to extend his tax cuts. He wants to crack down on immigration. It's questionable as to whether or not he will truck with federal reserve independence. And he's also in his first term and still now is chAllenging economic data.

And I would be nervous about a return and him messing with, you know, the data that we rely on to even understand the economy. So anna, what are your thoughts here? What do you think a tram presidency could mean?

Practically speaking, I think he's not going to be able to do everything. I don't think he could abolished the income tax. What would IT practically? What are the warning sights?

What are you thinking? yeah. I mean, I think if you'd look at the vast as vast majority of economists, they will say that almost all of these policies would be quite negative. Obviously, things like reducing immigration and tariff s could be quite inflationary.

You also have the potential for a trade war because if trump were actually to put on these types of terrify is not like other countries aren't going to respond, they're going to respond. You also wear at a point in the economy where, yes, things are going relatively well despite toy's loves you jobs support, although there was kind of wear jobs support. Still inflation still isn't actually where we needed to be.

We still needed to come down a little bit. The fed is just starting to reduce rates. And now you have the potential for this just enormous you know tornado to come in and potentially really disrupt things.

And I think and then on top of that, you have the quite significant concerns about what this will do to both the deficit and the debt, which have expanded massively under both, I mean, Frankly, since two thousand and nine, theyve expanded massively but expanded quite a bit obvious ly sense the pandemic. And there is pretty wide agreement that trumps policies would be far worse for the deficit, especially if his tera ff don't create the type of economic growth that he somehow thinks they're going to. Now granted, I think a lot of economies are also somewhat concerned about what you know any party would do because IT doesn't seem like any party is really interested in no fiscal responsibility.

But I think there's far more concern with trump. And Frankly, you can see that in terms of what we've in the markets, investors seem to be voting by having bomb yells go up. Now it's a large market. There are many things driving that. However, IT seems fairly clear that part of IT is concerned that the more likely to is that we're onna get a trump presidency, the more likely is that were going to have .

a less directly responsible government yeah of misperception that republicans are more fiscally responsible in the front but trump pad I had dead and deficit any president mon history but you know, that also have been true of other republican presidents.

Theyve had higher death and deficits and democratic presidents in recent history and constantly started trying to try angle on why voters still think that republicans are Better on the economy generally. And I heard a theory yesterday that sort of an intuitively makes sense to me, which is that voters do underline on some level that republicans represent the interest of the wealthy. And so they assume virtue of that the republicans are smarter because they're richer. Or the perception is that their Richard, and that doing explain trump a little bit.

I think also voters and people, I mean, I think i've think like this a little bit. Voters don't think of tax cuts as an expense. They think of spending as an expense, which intuit vely make sense.

But tax cuts wind up costing, allowed money and increasing deficits. But I think regular people don't see IT that way. They just see IT like money back in my pocket.

Whether they see government spending as something that needs to be cut, needs to they want elan musk now to come in. So I mentioned him this time. I this should be like a about that brings to come in and like cut expenses, government expenses. So I think that's like a difference .

in the perception. They don't realize the tax cuts are stimulus. They think that if they're getting a check that's materially different in terms of government spending, that in tax cut because they don't quite understand how the mechanics of how we do that.

Well, yeah, tax cut feels like you're getting your money back and a check feels like something else for the most part.

And I would actually say trump s is a bit of anomaly on this, but for the most part, the conservative party has historical been the party of smaller government, less inter ference in the economy, fewer regulations, lower taxation, where reas democrats have traditionally been the party of bigger government.

And so while one can certainly look at stock market Marks and say, well, you know, the stock market actually is kind of doesn't really care whether there's a democratic republican. If you actually look at what actually happens to the deficit, a little tRicky to say whether what happens with republicans, what happens with democrat. But IT is true that the parties do have these identities.

So I don't think it's completely unreasonable that people would say that most conservative candidates, if if people believe that a smaller government is Better for the economy, that they would support the conservative. And now the thing with trump, and I think this is why you have even a lot of traditional conservatives, not necessarily in his camp, is because he's really he's what he's asking you for, is a tremendous amount of government interference in the economy. I mean, he wants to cut taxes, but it's the taxes of things that really essentially trying to pick winners and losers like that.

that is about the most interference yeah. And so the other thing I would say is this notion that higher deficits are bad used to be a big thing in american politics and culture. And if that's really gone away, I think um now use both sides.

They don't really talk about attacking deficits the way they used to. It's just not not an issue, especially in the in with trump. Trump really has been the one to sort of minimize that as an issue um for politics and politicians when you look at estimates of what either Harris or trump would do to the deficit yeah trump is slightly worse but Harris know you know budget .

hawker anything they both spend lot. It's not marginal. And I I think part that you are I think you are correct that there's there's you know trump has made in a non issue, but partly because first, it's so easy for them to make anything else in issue.

But also nice campaign stays away from IT as supporters stay away from IT now that they can't weapon ze IT against democrats. Uh, the ones you understand where the dead deficit actually are now. And so it's easier for them.

They started to talk about things that are right in front of the face of voters. We have talked about this before. But when I talked trump supporters in my family, they still their number on issue is inflation, but they can flag inflation with cost of living and and they talk about gas Prices a lot.

And so it's easier for trump to kind of make an economic grassie that all of that is the fault of the by administration. Partly, these people just don't understand these systemic effects. They don't understand what terrorists would do to inflation or with the port you mass deportation would do.

One thing I think is really interesting, like trump, his policies are so conflicting, like he wants to guess, cut taxes theoretically to stimulate the economy. He also wants to do this math, deportation, which would get rid of millions of people. Terrible for those people, but from an economic perspective, terrible for the job market.

So you you're simulating the economy the same time you're shrinking the labor force. That's how you get inflation. That's how we got inflation after are partly why we got inflation after the pandemic.

We had very low immigration you know during cove um but the we stimulated the economy and we had labor shortages. We saw wages go up quite a bit, especially for loaded workers. Those two policies are are very conflicting and I think gonna be problematic. And I don't see from business owners perspective, his immigration policies are gna be terrible. And I could see some maybe some tension and conflict beare happening.

Yeah I mean, I I think it's it's interesting when you talk to people in business who do support trump often what you hear is this is just an negotiating tactic. He's not actually going to do these things.

And to me, that response doesn't entirely job with history because for most Normal candidates, I would say that's true because most times on the campaign trial you say whatever to get elected and that you do something completely different once are actually in office. But during trans first administration, he did quite a bit of what he said he was going to do, almost everything he was all enabled to do. You know, I think that's why there's become a quite a bit of concern now that we might not only get a trump presidency, but potentially this red wave. And then that would mean that trump have a lot more of a hand in order to really push through some of these more extreme measures.

Yeah, another factors. And I mean, you know related to that, I don't think we'll have a red wave even if you get selected. But you know if if he doesn't have complete control of.

Congress there are there are ways in which congress can mitigate anything that he does want to do. But one area where i'm not sure that they can is the the ways of what he wants to interfere with economic data. That's something that he can sort of doing unattended.

And you know he did IT with the census if he started doing IT with the B L S or you other organizations that we are agencies that we rely on to actually understand how the economy is performing. I'm not sure there's a lot that people can do to stop him, and then we really are up shit. Great because we won't fully have a picture of what's happening.

The one thing that i've often felt maybe to just make myself feel Better is that Donald trump loves polls and he seems to view the stock market as a pull of him when he's in office. So there's a part of me that feels like if things really just start to blow up because of some of his policies that that maybe could make him pull back now, we could also make him be like, oh, the stock markets been taken over by the which on but IT could also .

make simple is best felt. It's interesting right now.

So you you kind of mentioned this already. But one reason markets and economists don't like these really big deficit is because what they do to the cost of barring into bony's ds and and a, you should step in at any point where I overstep an explanation of bonelli. Right now, long term, the yield on long term bonds, ten year treasury ies is higher, maybe then some people would expect partly.

And that means the cost of borrowing is higher notice for treasury bonds. But for things like mortgage, that's partly because people are abundant. Investors anyway are worried about the chaos that a trump presidency would bring, the chaos in the deficit and that a tram presidency would bring.

And we're already seeing in the U. K. And in france were seeing bond yells go up there too.

And IT sounds really nerdy and monkey. But if the cost of borrowing U S. Bonds goes up, IT makes the business of running a government harder.

And and that's like the big worry about deficits that down the line that makes the cost of running the government higher and IT makes IT harder. And you know and that's where the trouble comes in. So the bond market is pricing this in this this worry over trump chaos, but the start market really isn't. And I don't maybe understand exactly why I am. Maybe you could like pass that out for me.

And one thing I would just point out is that we are already at a point where we are spending over trillion dollars to face our debt like we're spending service are dead and we're spending on defense like that, that significant. And if bond yield ds stay elevated and the debt stays elevated or increases, that problem just gets worse and worse. And also just quickly to say globally, what's happening in the U.

S. Is definitely also impacting what's happening with by yields globally. Although you also have other issues, they're obviously you had the budget that was released in the U.

K. This week that span responded to negatively because it's gna be more borrowing. You also have issues and friends like with with concerns. There's so there are lots of things going on here.

But when IT comes to the stock market and when you say the stock market, what you really probably mean is the S M P five hundred. And still, so much of that is being driven by a small number of companies that are continuing to do, for the most part, pretty darn well. And they're also there's being supported by A I euphoria.

There's lots of different things. There's actual earnings there. Now yes, in theory, if we were to see bony's stay elevated or actually to increase or if people thought, oh, actually the fed is just not going to be able to cut nearly as much as we thought IT was, that actually should turkle into the equity market just because the discount rate is increasing.

But right now, part of the issue is just the stock market really is a small handful of companies. It's not the entire economy. IT is a small handful of companies.

So it's not the best gage I an truck might see IT as the best cage or pull on his performance, but it's really not, at the moment, very connected at all.

And also markets are just not economic indicators. And there is why trump loves the deal as an indicator that he doesn't necessarily he's not that sophisticated about actual economic indicators. And he knows that the average voter knows what the deal is. They know what the stark market is. They may not understand, you know, GDP productivity ratio IT makes the economic story more intelligible to people because it's something that they're more familiar with.

I want to spend at least ninety more seconds because we have mostly talked about trump and said how terrible he would be for the economy. That's kind of my summary. Some business leaders, do you say that Harris would not be good for the economy?

That this is an argument. People don't like the any trust crack down from the by administration. They don't like more regulation.

There's banking rules there. There's all kinds of things that businesses really are not happy with at all. The business community are not big fans of the administration. So there could be some negatives there too. Maybe anna.

Yeah, I mean, that depends on what who you're talking in the business community. But yeah, I mean, I think obviously, if Harris were to be elected in and Frankly, SHE would really probably need support in both the house in the senate to actually push through things like increasing corporate tax rates or you know going after corporations on other ways.

And Frankly, I don't think most people think that, that would happen even if sure elected just because it's unlikely you're going to have a blue wave. But look here, I mean, I think there's it's reasonable to think that the idea of putting on tremendous more regulations, the idea of increasing taxes significantly and and you have had here is engaged in some kind of populist retour c around like I am going to, you know, try to control grocery Prices. I mean, she's not actually going to try to control grocery Prices. That type of language doesn't in gender a lot of confidence in people in the business world. I mean, I think what you probably a lot of people that this would want is, is honestly a herr's presidency with a republican gress because then Harris isn't going to do what you think crazy, but you're not actually going to get any tax changes or anything because nothing is going to happen.

I guess the big thing will be looking we don't know what's going to happen on tuesday, but we do know that the trump tax cuts expire next year and congress does, in fact, have to do something on taxes.

And that's gonna just be I think no matter who wins, it's going to be a wild free for all of people just scrambling to pass whatever kind of policy they they want to get done because it's probably one of the few opportunities, assuming that we get to vide government, one of the few opportunities to get anything done at all. So that's something i'm keeping an I on. One of the things .

I also think is interesting, and it's another way where trump is quite animal in terms of the conservative candidate, is that when he comes to anti trust, like vans, so he as his bp is actually very supportive of the anti transport icy that we currently have being even tougher. Red like this again, is not your traditional conservative ticket.

Yeah, vance is a can head that the nickname for supporters of lena .

on this is a certain strange to watch. Because trump is not a traditional candidate. He invents, don't agree on everything, and but he seems, you know, unaware of what some advances policies are. And so he he gets by, incited by them in interviews. And he later started to deny that that the baLance has the position he has, or IT has to be explained him because he didn't sort of ask baLance about these things before he died, pointed him as the running made.

This podcast is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes IT easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and that could mean hundreds more in your pocket.

Visit progressive 点 com after this episode to see if you could save progressive casualty insurance company and affiloir tes。 Potential savings will vary not available in all states. If you love iphone, you'll love apple card. IT comes to the privacy and security you expect from apple plus.

You can earn up to three percent daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interests when you open a high yield savings account through apple card, apply for apple card in the wallet APP subject to credit approval, savings is available to apple card owner subject to eligibility, apple card and savings by gold sax bank U, S, A solid city branch member F, D, I, C, terms and more at apple card dot com. What I really want to talk about now is one of the most important news stories of our time. I'm kidding.

What I really want to talk about now is grab gate. This is what happened at met a few weeks ago. I think I was on his number two weeks ago. Meta fired two dozen workers because they are taking advantage of the companies perk their meal park. They give uber eats credits or grab hub credits of its like seventy dollars a day actually for three meals.

And so metal workers we're using uber, eat or whatever to not get their meals, but to order stuff from the, from the C B S, to get wine glasses, medicine, you know, have dinner sent home to there, where that's not the point response. Eat the food in the office. That's why they give you the money for the food.

Then IT turns out there's there's more R R crackdowns happening inside companies. E Y, A fired workers because they are watching to training videos at the same time. And I guess that's not allowed, although I think it's incredible multi tasking and now business insider and I think the watery journal both have pieces on kind of like, is this the end of the big tech perks? You know, these workers have gotten all kinds of like posh benefits, laundry money, meal money, vacations, jim, whatever.

Are people cracking down? But first, before I want want to talk about people cracking down, I want to ask Elizabeth, is IT OK to use your ubs meal credit to buy shit at the cbs or one gasses like, maybe this is fine. So these workers have even been fired?

I think IT shouldn't. okay. I mean, these things are sort of packed into compensation packages. You know whatever people are trying to do recruiting, there they go and you get this meal benefit.

I don't really see as as a cash outlet for the company is the same amount of money either way, if it's making workers life, okay, you're bit why not? What I think people are using IT for though is our companies are using IT to fire people. They want to fire anyway and not position IT as layoff.

Maybe that in all cases, but I I think there is a cynical appointment of that sometimes. You know, one of the perks that somebody mentioned was laundry reimbursement, and this was somebody who hadn't gotten in trouble for IT. They said, you know, am I supposed to am gone in trouble if I also wash my spouse ses clues? Or do I actually have to start separating our stuff because that technically he's not an employee? There should be like a reasonable you know assessment of whether somebody trying to you be abusive to the system or they're using IT in a way that's creative and and you know beneficial. I mean.

I think the interesting thing there too, is how the kind of interweaving of our work in our life, which was obviously happening for a long time before the pandemic and then since the pandemic has happened even more so. And and so IT raises that question because accompanying to say, I only want these things to be used for work related, but then part of the reason they are giving them is because they want you to work on the time that really should be your family time. So you know if raises a lot of those interesting questions.

yeah I mean, they are giving workers seventy dollars a day so that they eat all of their meals at the office like that's probably not yeah good work life baLance to begin with? No, definitely.

I probably also imagine that I think this is a problem for multiple reasons. I think partly because tech workers in particular, but workers in general now don't have as much powers they had a few years ago. But I also think it's because there is this clear towards a more hybrid working style.

I know certain companies have are trying to put the tooth pace back in the two, but I think that, that chip has sailed. I'm going to mix metaphors here, but I think that it's reasonable to say that if you are giving people more ability and so they're to be setting more time at home, you should pull back perks at the office. I actually don't think that's completely unreasonable.

This happening because the labor market is lowing down? Or is that just like we heard about at this time, but it's going on all the time people are cracking down or like policing these kinds of benefits. I I read there is the journal had a story from like two thousand and nine fidelity or brand of fidelity, fired some like investment managers, I believe, because for for running a fantasy foobar, which seems, I mean, if ever was fired who did fantasy football at work, we would have no work force standing more basically um but IT was two thousand and nine and you know and and the the argument the reporter was making was like in time in downturns they'll there's any excuse becomes before you and then you fire you know you take any excuse my vibes based analysis .

is just that companies are still pretty pissed off that workers are not coming back and then is sort of have this attitude towards that workers are somehow abusing the system. And I think it's filter into other aspects of office and worklife ve lot of the pieces that we read in the prep to talk about this, we're coming granted from places like the journal where tend to be more management friendly than labor friendly.

But the framing was always, you know, companies are getting tired of employees and scrolling their phones during meetings and using the office copy or to copy things for their kids, whatever, and they sort of framed IT as stealing from the company. And you know, on the same basis, you could argue that having to do a lot of stuff at home for work or do IT, you know, outside of Normal office hours is stealing from labor. So but the vibe seems to be very pro captive. And a lot of stuff we're reading that.

So true. Stealing from labor is never a big deal. In fact, it's like if you're not stealing from labor, what are you even doing? Like if your workers aren't checking their their phones, you know, twenty four, seven are you are they they've care about their jobs or they even quote and quote, engaged at work.

You know, the obsession with worker engagement. There is so much less talk about employers abusing the perks that we provide for them. I feel angry also. Here's a question.

So I did math and seventy dollars a day for, you know, full time worker working five days a week in taking two weeks vacation that comes out to seven thousand five hundred dollars a year. Elisabeth anna, would you rather just have an extra seventy thousand dollars hundred a year in your paycheck? Or do you want these usage? credit?

Credit seventy k obviously. And you know, the comedies can rate, these things are off, so they have an incentive to do IT this way.

But well, I ve on the credits .

because something tax on that.

I think, well, I think if if you have so if you're above a certain amount of income, I think that that's a rational decision. But for a lot of people, or cash is important, you know, I think they would take the cash.

no. I mean, I think it's reasonable as you know, how to percent like if your margin tax rate is rising than IT becomes much IT makes much more sense to get things something tax than them. If it's less than IT makes more sense of cash.

Well, I mean, if you're making forty thousand dollars a year, you want the seventeen thousand extra. But these these big tech workers are making like two hundred grand, three hundred grand a year.

you're probably not getting seventy thousand dollars if you're only making forty thousand dollars here.

Well, I also think .

there there is a lot of with the corporations when they talk about these abuses. I think the the big one is for these companies that provide meals in house like google. And they have these, you know, find dining experts to command and treat these incredible food bars. They started banning people from being bringing top where to the company because they would take food home. And I understand worrying that some people might abuse that, but outside of an extreme scenario where someone comes and just empty the whole bar axiom, I I just I think this is you know, nit picking things at the margins that really demoralize people whenever you start policing them aggressively.

We had a free lunch when I was at half host that that we had like different restaurants would come in and have booth set up and you could get like IT was IT was truly amazing and people would bring a up wear. They would get one lunch to eat in the office and then get a second lunch to take home. And I remember people growing about IT, but I was like, who cares?

Um also I would do that. It's like you get home very late and exactly affecting tired do you know want to try .

also if you I mean, there's always so much wasted food from corporate events. It's not like people are eating all the food. There is always a hn of food leftover.

yes. Oh my gosh. S felix interviewed Carry on about her recent book, which was about her time working at a private equity firm. And the descriptions of food in that book are astonishing.

SHE would describe these lunches where they would, they would bring in sushi from nobo, elaborate to cupcakes from somewhere, fancy cakes, all of IT. No one would touch anything. And then they would to throw IT all away, just like in succession, just like when they throw out the lapstone s because the guy wants pizza.

I think just give people money generally though, because one of the things that at at least during preprint of IT, when people were still in the office all the time, i've worked with so many startups that offer benefits that really are study machi wellness benefits that first of all, people don't have time to you take advantage or whatever. But there is a kind of Peter nal ism to IT that, as you know, workers can make their own decisions about what will keep them healthy. And sometimes it's just infantilizing. You know, I am not a fan of force and force fun at work so you know sort of corporate retreats that are entirely belt wildness or you know work I worked in I worked with the company that um where people did two and three minute meditations before meanings and you know the sort of I guess hippie side of the company loved this and then everyone working on editorial hated IT and IT was the same idea that was like, well, this makes everyone happier and healthier it's like, well, IT probably makes everyone little healthier .

but I do you know it's not healthy eating all three meals of the day at your dust at work from take .

out place yeah .

the cafeteria today has replaced the refectory of old modern men. Has created new words for his new way of living and thinking.

So before we get to the numbers around, I wants to tell you about today's sleep plus bonus mini episode available in your podcast. We're talking about covering the parents of convicted criminals actually, and why that might be more complicated than IT first sounds. And should we even care about the parents of convicted criminals of their adults? That's all in the sleep plus bonus mini episode is really good.

So I recommend that you listen to IT sleep plus members can get access to that in their fees right now. You're not a sleep plus member and you don't want to hear ads and you want other great state stuff. You should sign up for sleeve plus because with slap lus, you get a free listening on all slave podcast and unlimited access to all sleep dog on content.

There's a members only news letter and of course, an exclusive bonus segment in every regular sate money episode and a lot of other sleep podcasts as well. Subscribe now on apple podcast by clicking try free at the top of our show page or slide down calm slash money plus that slave down calm flash money plus. This podcast has brought to you by progressive insurance, fiscally responsible, financial genius, monetary magicians.

These are things people say about drivers who switched their own insurance to progressive and save hundreds, because progressive offers discounts for paying and for phoning home. And more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you and you need IT so your dollar goes a long way.

Visit progressive dot com to see if you could save on car insurance, progressive casualty insurance company and fillies. Potential savings will vary not available in all states and situations. Or should we do numbers that is with what he got?

Okay, my number is seventy and that's disables. And so i've been thinking about our leaf blower conversations and the wirecutters recommended a lef lower that is around seventy despoils in its electric and its cordless less. And IT looks a little bit differently than the gas and leaves or so IT sort of like cloth leafs and little bird.

That made me started look up. It's like, well, what is the Normal leaf blower? Sounds like. And and I found a study that basically said, if you're holding the leaf flour, the the start of averages are somewhere around one hundred and sex disciples.

So that is a pretty significant difference if you if you must have a leaf power IT seems like the electrodes ins are Better and seventy despoils is about the um equivalent of a dicon. Her driver, sixty five disciples, is your new presso. When it's cleaning itself.

so miss. So cleaning themselves, they do.

I ve got to get one of those. They're great. Also, what is up with dyson hair dryers are this was to be like Better than regular hair dryers. Have you guys use them? It's a different conversation, but I need to know know they're .

suppose be a Better. They're insanely expense sive. But I I guess I just don't care about my hair that much.

I just seems like way I drive my hair faster.

I would be interested in that if you .

could actually make my hair look like what IT looks like after I come out of this long. I would pay for that.

but I don't. Yeah.

I would pay a lot for that. Yeah, we all have long here. We're the target market for IT, but I I don't know. I am too well. I don't care.

Anna by .

number is nineteen point four, and that's days is actually somewhat related to our last topic. So IT appears that the sick man of europe is actually sick. So the average number of days that german workers are taking off has increased pretty significantly since the before the pandemic. This has been seen in other places, but IT seems to be particularly notable in germany. And also, I think apparently is particularly conversation in germany, I guess because i'll mention elon musk are test for I guess the germany was actually sending people to unexpected visits at people's houses who said they were sick just to make sure they were like actually sick just crazy. And there was actually a study .

that that's .

ah razing the worst example of corporate policing for real.

Elan must get your door. Like, can I take your temperature?

I like thinking. Like fares buler.

Like you dine and person.

right? You put your hand on the lamp to get the pum.

exactly.

So why? Why do we think this is happening in geria? Well.

they said partly it's because they actually did change a lot to make IT easier to get a doctors. No, which to me raised the question of, you need a doctor. Know like what have you an eighth grade? But apparently that seems to be part of IT.

I think the other reason people are talking about IT is because germany's economy is really struggling. And there actually was a study that tried to suggest that like well, people and take on the sick. Now of course, that's ridiculous because because german's economy struggling, because they're biggest customer, china is struggling and they no longer access to cheap oil and gas from russia.

That's what struggling. It's not the sick workers. But IT is interesting that that's what people are looking at.

People are so quick to blame, but you have to blame the workers.

So quick to blame the workers. Come on, kay. My number is eight hundred, eight hundred million a that is the sales in sales of nerds gami clusters in twenty twenty four.

So I don't know. People are aware of nerds gummy clusters, but there are this incredible Candy. They are a gummy, but they're surrounded the little chunks uh, with crunchy little nerd.

So it's like this great textual experience and they're really good. My family really like them. Six years ago, before the invention of nerds gummy clusters, their sales were less than fifty million dollars.

So I mean, that's like fifty hundred percent increase, something I don't know i'm talking about. Nerds got me clusters because that was just halloween and we didn't really talk about that last week. Apologies to everyone.

Nerds get me clusters are so hot right now that an article about them appeared in both the wall street journal l and the new york times five days apart last week. Basically the same story of, like, the creation of the nerds gammy clusters, and like why there did have done so well. And like how kindly they generally like, helps to make them really learn by people really love them. And you know, people talking about them on red is saying, like my wife left me because I ate too many nerds coming clusters. I don't think that's actually true, but it's worth repeating .

that may not I know problem, I don't know probably .

something else going on there. Yeah but so you know if you don't if you don't know about these, very, very popular. And I recommend .

them if you had one.

Oh yes. So lizabeth th, I have had.

i've had taken on a scale of one to ten. Where do you rate them as a Candy?

I would rate them as Candy, like if you're accepting chocolate, like if chocolate isn't included in the scale and is ten the best and won the worst. Yes, I would write gummy clusters as a nine Candy. Yeah, there might be Better than gummy bears. If people like gummy, which are also got me anything right now, is very, very popular with Candy eaters. And enough, you guys include yourself selves.

My kid, he ranked all of his halloween Candy last night. Put them in pilots from one to ten.

So this is the way.

What's his top Candy? His top with schedules and and he said, because it's consistently. You and the bottom was tt year old I said.

yeah, I get that.

I was just going to say that like when I was a little kid, I would also, I really enjoyed organizing all of my Candy. I usually did not eat tremendous ped my Candy. I I like chocolate that I don't actually like Candy.

but android organza IT. And on that note, that's IT for a show today for your thoughts or comments. Candy recommendations, send them to slate money at slate 点 com。

If you are a slate plus member, you should go and find the slate plus super special bonus segment where we're talk about the parents of Young adults that are in prison, such as sam bank, man fried and they're polite and why the new york times cares so much about IT. That's for sleep lus members thanks to sherrod and jar downing for producing I am Emily peck and on behalf of anish, man, skin of this, the fires. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you back here next week on slate money.