Israel plans Gaza exodus amid outcry over Trump's vision
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ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. Welcome to the World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, Stuart Willey and Alex Dibble. The outcry that followed Donald Trump's proposal that Palestinians be cleared or expelled from Gaza to enable a Riviera of the Middle East

has continued, despite some elements of the plan being clarified and some other elements of it appearing to be slightly watered down by the White House. And after Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Riviera plan was a good one, his defence minister has now gone further and made suggestions as to how Gazans could be relocated.

Israel Katz has also ordered his country's military to draw up a plan to help them leave voluntarily. Our guest today is The Times' Israel correspondent, Gabriel Weininger, who can help us unpack just what's going on. Gabriel, what's prompted this move?

Of course, it comes hot off the tails of the rather outlandish press conference that was held between President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday night. Trump, of course, proposing that the US take over Gaza and in fact, own it. Katz has jumped on this plan and said that he will instruct the Israeli army to facilitate any efforts of Palestinians voluntarily leaving the Gaza Strip. Of course, this is something that

on one hand, should be allowed, you know, Palestinians should be allowed to have freedom of movement. And it really just shows you how much control Israel has over the Palestinian enclave, which has, in fact, imposed a very strict blockade on the air, on the sea and on land crossings since Hamas won the elections in 2006 and took over.

since then. Palestinians have had very little freedom. They've had to ask the Israeli military to give them any permits to leave to study, to leave to get treatment.

Everything is dependent on the Israeli military allowing that permission. For example, Palestinian fishermen have to request and stay within a certain nautical mile of the shore. There is no airport. That's why it's been called by the UN as the world's largest prison. So the fact that Katz would have to even say that Palestinians should be allowed freedom of travel, it should go without saying, but it really...

He's really jumping on the back of the idea that Trump is saying to forcibly displace Palestinians from their homeland.

This is something that echoes much of Israel's right-wing desires that have been pronounced over the past few years and the settlement movement being emboldened. Katz is jumping off the back of that and calling on other countries to absorb the Palestinians, which of course is not his prerogative. He's saying that there are several countries, in particular the countries that

unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state without a two-state solution, that they are, quote, legally obligated to absorb the Palestinian population. This is what he's proposing, and this is what he's instructed the Israeli army to do.

Gabriel, as you say, he has singled out those who supported Palestinian statehood, name-checking Spain, Ireland and Norway. In Ireland, refugees are a hot-button issue. They are a hot-button political issue. Spain has the hard-right Vox party that is strongly anti-immigration. What's been the reaction from those countries?

They've towed the party line in the way of saying we call for a continuation of the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, which is in its second week, and to call for a two-state solution. So a diplomatically negotiated two-state solution and certainly not what Trump is proposing, which would be essentially a forcible transfer of peoples. I think there's been wide discussion.

condemnation of this proposal. And they are sticking with the international law in saying that there should be no such thing as forcible transfer. And any peace negotiation should be negotiated in a proper way to enable Palestinians the right to self-determination, the Jews the right to self-determination and safe borders on both sides.

And for those wishes to be fulfilled for both the Palestinian people and the Jewish people in Israel. Something that struck me here was that Mr Katz was very clear in saying this departure should be voluntary. Was that, as you say, a nod to international law or the condemnation that came after Mr Trump's suggestion that Palestinians be forcibly displaced or something quite different? He also said Hamas was blocking Gazans from leaving.

I think that was an effort by Katz to put the blame on Hamas for using Palestinian civilians as a human shield. Much of the Israeli operations that have been conducted in the Gaza Strip over the past 16 months before the ceasefire have been targeting hospitals and schools under the claim and under the understanding that Hamas are hiding behind civilians and within civilian infrastructure underneath hospitals in tunnels and

hiding weaponry in civilian homes. So this is a way for

to put the onus on Hamas and say that the Ghazan people are Hamas's responsibility, which of course is quite counter to the idea that Hamas have been defeated and are no longer in power. On one hand, he's holding them responsible for the Palestinian people as a governing body, despite the fact that they are listed as a terrorist organization. And there are no direct talks between Israel and Hamas because, of course, there's no recognition of one another on each side. So it's a bit like a

trying to have his cake and eat it, on one hand giving Hamas the power and on the other hand saying, well, you know, Hamas isn't a body that we can negotiate with or draw up any fair peace plan and post-war construction plan for Gaza in the future. Of course, there is absolutely no plan on the table for what's going to happen or no plan that's been agreed upon, especially by Israel, for the post-war vision of the Gaza Strip.

We've seen the White House, to some extent, rowing back on Trump's vision for reconstructing Gaza. Indeed, now they say it is for Israel to clear Gazans out. Middle East states, as we said in yesterday's episode, have rejected, sometimes forcefully, this plan. How is the Riviera idea being seen within Israel?

Well, it follows on with his son-in-law's plan, Jared Kushner's plan to turn Gaza into some kind of holiday destination. And I think that kind of

We ignited a lot of the far right wish to resettle Gaza. And we've seen that, of course, over the course of the war as well with settlers calling to move into northern Gaza and to not allow civilians to return to their homes, those who those million civilians who fled south. So it's really fueled the fire, I would say, and they have become very emboldened.

We've had Itamar Bengvir, who has left the government but is still a very strong voice and is quite impatiently waiting for the ceasefire to fall apart.

and for fighting to resume, we've had him praising this and saying, this is what I wanted all along. And we've had Smotrich quoting Psalms and using the Bible to say that this is Jewish land, essentially, and this is what should happen. And God will rejoice at the idea of Israel and Israelis reclaiming what they say is their biblical, what is their biblical homeland, but what they say is their biblical heritage and their biblical birthright.

So this has certainly emboldened the Israeli right. And

It's put a big damper on the potential for the ceasefire negotiations. There are other people saying and experts who I spoke to today who are saying that Trump has done this, this outlandish statement in order to ensure that the hostages are returned and that Netanyahu's coalition can actually stay together and ensure that the ceasefire is seen to its conclusion. Because, of course, we have two more phases to go of the ceasefire. It's nowhere near complete. There are still

Several dozens of hostages held in Hamas captivity. And this could be Trump's way of making that happen and keeping those right wing elements of his party placated. But that being said, it's a very dangerous game if that's if that's his tactic.

So despite Ben Gvir's hopes, that ceasefire seems to be holding on. Indeed, we're expecting more hostages to be released on Saturday. Qatar, though, was notable in not reacting to Trump's idea at all. They say because negotiating that second phase you mentioned is more important. Where are we with pushing through to that next phase?

So that ceasefire is entering its second phase, which will see further hostages released, as you said. And the prime minister of Qatar is set to meet with Steve Witkoff, who is the advisor for Donald Trump, to ensure that all of that goes ahead. And negotiations have been going on throughout the last two and a half weeks now.

on logistics, on the practicalities of making things happen, on the continuation of, I don't want to say peace, but on the cessation of fighting, and to talk about the reconstruction of an absolutely devastated, war-torn Gaza. Israelis...

are very much hoping that this goes through. We're still seeing gatherings at Hostage Square in Tel Aviv. People do not feel satiated or they don't feel like this has come to a conclusion until all of their hostages are home. And we see time and time again, the beloved, the families of hostages going on press conferences and saying, we are so happy to have those who have been freed come home, but we are still waiting for the rest of them.

Gabriel, thank you. The Times' Israel correspondent, Gabriel Weininger, there. That's it from us. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. We'll see you tomorrow. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.

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