Why North Korean soldiers prefer suicide to Ukrainian capture
10:06 Share

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies.

Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two-year contracts, they said, what the f*** are you talking about, you insane Hollywood a**hole?

So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes per details.

Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. I'm Toby Gillis, joined today by Alex Dibble. The mystery surrounding North Korea's involvement in Russia's war with Ukraine is easing, with more details emerging.

If reports from South Korea are to be believed, 3,000 of an initial 11,000 North Korean fighters have now either died or been badly injured. And their fighting capability is rudimentary at best, with no understanding of how modern warfare works.

There are also claims that they've been told to kill themselves rather than be captured alive. So how far can we trust these reports? And if there is scant regard for their lives, how much of an impact can they even have on the war? Our guest today is the Times' Asia editor, Richard Lloyd Parry. Richard, how is South Korea gleaning this intelligence?

Well, that's a very good question. The origins and the quality of this information are not entirely clear. We know members of the South Korean intelligence agency are in Ukraine, helping the Ukrainians monitor information.

the North Korean engagement with Russia and to interrogate these North Korean captives. The three so far, one died and two more in the last few days have been displayed in videos and have survived. So the Ukrainians and the South Koreans are working together. One assumes that this information comes from Ukraine, from Ukrainian intelligence, from observations made on the battlefield.

But how accurate it is, or how reliable it is, is another question. I mean, the Ukrainians, for example, have come up with rather specific figures that 300 North Koreans have been killed and 2,700 wounded. How exactly they know that is unclear. They haven't retrieved 300 bodies. And how they know that 2,700 have been wounded,

We don't know. These numbers could easily and probably are exaggerations. And it's not just numbers that South Korea has put out, is it? Because they've also suggested that the North Korean soldiers are killing themselves when they're caught rather than being taken alive. Do you not trust any of these reports at all? I think, you know, with all this, all these stories that come out in wartime,

You have to be very cautious and perhaps sceptical. I mean, in every war, the contending sides exaggerate, mislead and lie on occasion about what the other side are doing. Obviously, it's in the interest of the Ukrainians to make the North Koreans and Russians look as bad and as horrible as possible. And this certainly makes them look very horrible.

But having said that, there is some history to suicide tactics on the part of North Korea. There was an infamous assassination attempt by North Korean commandos on a former South Korean president, got really quite close to the presidential palace in Seoul, and they had been ordered to commit suicide. There was also, I think it was in 1996, a North Korean submarine wreckage

was washed up on the shore after suffering a mechanical failure off South Korea. And the members of that crew were killed by a superior officer who then killed himself. So it's not without precedent, but, you know, the exact details and the extent to which it's happening now, you have to be a bit cautious about saying that we can confirm it with certainty.

Richard, what we do know, as you say, is that South Korea is on the ground in Ukraine. What's in it for them? Is this about being across whatever North Korea is able to learn about modern warfare?

Yeah, I mean, South Korea is, I don't know if they're particularly worried about that. I mean, on the one hand, it's a training ground, but also, you know, we're told that, that it's very bad that they're getting all this battle experience. But at the same time, we're being told, well, they're just being mown down and, you know, used as cannon fodder.

Again, which is it? You know, the South Koreans and Ukrainians, their interest, their sole interest is in using this information to their advantage, which is why as independent observers, as journalists, we have to be very careful and not to say more than we can. What we can say is that there are a lot of claims. It's very difficult to know, you know, what the truth of them is. In South Korea, I think there's another concern, and that is...

You know, what's going to be the quid pro quo for this? You know, clearly Putin wants North Korean soldiers there, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Kim Jong-un is doing him a favor. So what's Kim Jong-un going to get in return? Again, there is only speculation, but part of the sort of worried speculation is that Russia will assist North Korea with military technology that it needs, for example, in improving its ballistic missile systems, maybe even its nuclear warheads. So that's, I think, the biggest concern here.

But again, we don't know with certainty what's been done and what favours have been rendered by the Russians so far.

The other thing we do know for sure is that South Korean intelligence services are involved in interrogating the first two North Korean soldiers who have been captured alive by Ukraine. Is the real payoff for the South Korean involvement the opportunity to get intel from these soldiers? And will Ukraine allow South Korea to ask them these questions?

Yes, I don't think anyone outside those intelligence circles knows that. I mean, I'd assume that the Ukrainians would...

would like to fully debrief these North Koreans themselves first and find out what they have to say and then share it with South Korea next. I suspect they need the South Koreans simply in language terms. I mean, I don't know how many Ukrainian diplomats and intelligence agencies speak fluent Korean. I suspect the number is pretty small. You assume it is, right?

They're not two countries that had strong relations before this war. So I'm assuming that the South Korean intelligence agents are right in there doing the interpreting for the Ukrainians. But that's not detail that's been revealed.

Just briefly, Richard, Ukraine has given journalists access to these North Korean prisoners of war. A video of them has been released too. Does that not breach the Geneva Conventions? I think arguably it does. As I understand it, Zelensky said that he wants journalists to be given access to these people. I think the films we saw were made by Ukrainian intelligence, not actually by independent media.

I mean, the Geneva Conventions do have things to say about this, about, of course, they protect the rights of prisoners of war, legitimate prisoners of war, which I think these men are. And one of the things they say is they must be protected from, you know, harm, hostility, ridicule and public curiosity. And I think most people take that to mean that if you have prisoners of war, you're not supposed to parade them before the cameras and before journalists if they don't want that.

So, I mean, that does raise questions. I think that if Ukrainian prisoners in Russia were being paraded before the cameras and expected to answer questions, Ukrainians would complain about that. OK, Richard Lloyd Parry, Times Asia editor. Thank you very much for joining us. Now, Richard has cast doubt there on some of the reports by the South Koreans, but many believe North Korea soldiers are taking their own lives when they fear capture on the battlefield.

The former commander of the US Army in Europe, Lieutenant General Ben Hodges, is one of them. He's been speaking with Frontline, Times Radio's interview series on YouTube, which the World in 10 is partnered with. And General Hodges is inclined to believe the reports because of Vladimir Putin's increasing desire to hide the true damage the war is having on normal Russian families.

There's a lot behind the scenes that we just don't know yet about these guys. What conclusions can we draw from this? The Kremlin still is reluctant to draft large numbers of troops out of Moscow and St. Petersburg because they don't want a bunch of funerals.

In those cities, most of the casualties are coming from the regions outside of Russia's two main metropolitan areas. So that allows the Kremlin to say to operate without worrying about casualties. It'll be a different story if they are forced to have to draft troops from those two main areas.

main cities. So I think the North Koreans are filler. They're more fodder for the meat grounder. That was Lieutenant General Ben Hodges speaking to Frontline. And that's it for The World in 10 today. Thank you for spending 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. See you tomorrow.

Hi, this is Freddie Wong from Dungeons and Daddies, and this episode is sponsored by Rocket Money. Houston, we have a savings. That's right. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that empowers you to save more, spend less, and take control of your financial life. Basically, you can see all of your checking, savings, credit cards, and investments in one convenient place. You can understand your spending trends, and most importantly, you can categorize those expenses individually.

and set up a custom budget by identifying top spending categories. Listen, you want track bank statements? It's very difficult. Use Rocket Money to help keep track of all your finances. Rocket Money has over 5 million happy members and it's saved its users over $1 billion across all the app's premium features. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Get Rocket Money today at rocketmoney.com slash all in one. That's rocketmoney.com slash all in one.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.