How to Build a Standout Brand in Your Niche: Insights from Special Guest Cork & Fizz
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maybe I can talk to you about like, oh, at Trader Joe's, like here are some $10 bottles that would be great to try. And then once you're there, maybe it's like Total Wine has these great bottles for $15. And then it's like, let me talk to you about this small business, this small producer that I think makes incredible wine. You're going to have to pay a little bit more, but trust me, it's worth it, you know? And it's

that point, you've been brought up to that and you're a little more comfortable. And maybe at some point you stick around just with that $10 treat and that's fine. You can still love and enjoy wine at any level. I'm just going to teach you about all these different things so that you know how to explore.

Hey everyone, welcome to the SOB Marketing Podcast where we celebrate the SOB that you are and if you haven't figured it out yet, we mean small owned business. We don't mean SOB. Listen, we know that as a small business owner, you are working hard on the daily to keep your business fully operational while trying to promote it. And while some days it may feel like the business is owning you,

If we're being honest with each other, I bet you would admit that you wouldn't give up the insanity for anything. Our commitment here at the SOB Marketing Podcast is to give you the real talk, what works when it comes to advertising, marketing, promoting your business, and then what doesn't really work. And Chelsea and I promise to always keep the conversation real. Hey everybody and welcome back to the SOB Marketing Podcast, SOB as in small owned business. I promise we are not calling you guys names.

Before we get started, of course, a little housekeeping. Thank you so much for listening. If you've been listening to this podcast and enjoying it, then please, pretty, pretty please leave us a review. It helps us get in front of other SOBs, small businesses, so we can help everyone feel comfortable and confident in their marketing because we don't need to outsource our marketing. So Vivian...

We have an exciting episode. Do you want to go ahead and tell everyone what we are doing?

Yeah. So in this episode, we are getting fizzy with it, y'all. So we have a special guest, Haley Bowman. She is with Quark & Fizz. And so Haley, you guys should know, is a wine enthusiast and an educator. And today we're going to deep dive into how she has been able to really niche down and set herself apart in a super crowded marketplace because

You know, you guys, we do this on the daily. You know, you are not a one of a kind business. We all have competitors. And so it's really a good deep dive into how do you set yourself apart and how do you get people to recognize that you're offering something just a little different. So, hey, Haley.

Hello. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So listen, I absolutely love your story. Chelsea does too. For one, Chelsea, what did you tell me earlier today about wine in general? I feel like wine makes people uncomfortable just because the crowd that it usually brings in is kind of like

snooty, like I know what I'm talking about. You don't sort of thing. I just drink wine that tastes good to me. Okay. I don't know anything about wine. I just want to enjoy my alcohol. Yeah. I think it's very intimidating, but I know you got your start 2018. You and your husband went on this great trip. You guys went to vineyards in Oregon. Was it one vineyard or a couple of vineyards?

It was the area like you would call it Willamette Valley. So we visited a couple different vineyards and wineries in this kind of larger region called Willamette Valley.

Okay. And so that's what sparked your interest where you were all of a sudden, you're like, oh my gosh, I really like wine. And I think I could jump in and dive all in. The one thing I will say when I was reading your bio, you have always been, I don't want to call you a dork. Okay. I would call myself a dork. That's okay. Okay.

You said that you always love like learning, but you are always learning for a purpose, right? So like to get the grade or to get the accomplishment or whatever it is. And this was the first time that you really were like, you know what, I'm learning about a subject just because I want to.

Oh my gosh, yes. That was like, I think that was like the moment everybody always asked me like, why wine? What is it? Like what sparked it? And I could tell them the story of like when it happened and how it happened. But I was like, the why was always so hard. And I think that was exactly what clicked for me when I realized that.

crap. I like, I've always loved learning, but like, you know, in high school it was about getting into a good college and in college it was about getting a good job. And, you know, I kind of lost that desire to continue learning and trying new things until I found wine because there was no longer anything attached to it. I was purely learning because I wanted to learn about this.

So that was 2018. There was that spark and you're like, wine. So cool. I dig it. I want to learn more. You go, you check out all kinds of books in the library. What do you do to kind of start to get yourself like immersed in that? Yeah. So exactly what you said. I mean, the first thing I did, I mean, when I came back, I got this book called Cork Dork. Um,

which is very funny. It's a term like for wine dorks, but Cork Dork, it's by Bianca Bosker. And it's about her. She basically kind of did a very similar thing where she was a tech writer and then she dove into the world of wine and, you know, kind of hit every aspect of it. So that was the first one. And then I was like, yeah, I went to the library, looked up on the, you know, on the computer. I'm like, wine, just give me all the books that are related to wine and

I want to read them all. Then I started a wine club with friends because the other way to learn about wine other than just reading and studying and going that way is to taste a bunch of it and to learn about it that way. I wanted to taste a lot of wine, didn't want to buy all the wine myself. Started a wine club with friends. It was also a great way to create community. We'd

get together every month. Everybody would bring a bottle based on a theme and we would try the wine. And, you know, the first part of it would be very much about tasting the wine and, you know, practicing that process of tasting it and trying to decipher flavors. And

And then the end of the night was more about that community aspect after we've had a few glasses. I was going to say, I'm so glad you're taking one for the team out there tasting all kinds of wine for us. I know it's a tough one, but someone's got to do it right. So then you spent those two years just educating yourself about it. And then COVID hits and everybody's locked down. And I know there was this really...

Funny part that I read where you had even taken it a step further where you're like, great, we can do this virtually. We could do virtual wine tastings. Earlier I said testings and Chelsea's like, no, it's not a wine testing. There's no test. There's no answer key. I have to tell everybody that all the time when we're tasting. There's no answer key. Yeah.

So then you actually, how did you integrate that into this virtual aspect? Because it's much like, you know, I come from a healthcare world and when COVID hit, we were all like, this was pre, you know, Zoom being like what it is now where everyone's like, I guess now we have to use these alternative ways to be face-to-face virtually. But how did you integrate wine tastings into a virtual setting? Yeah.

Yeah. So the first one started with, again, with that friend group, right? We had been doing this wine club for, yeah, a good two years now. And I was like, I need to make this happen. So that was kind of my first foray into it. And what I did, I mean, these were my friends. So there was no legality worries about it. But I went out, I bought wine, poured it into little plastic cups, dropped it off at everybody's door. And then I'm a super visual person. So I created a slide deck. I like to look at pictures, maps.

things like that while I'm learning things. So I figured they would too. And then yeah, I got everybody on Zoom, hosted the first first tasting, first virtual tasting, loved it. I really focused more on that educational piece. I love learning and I also love teaching. So that kind of got to all tie in together. And like I said, I think having that visual aid as well, something to look at more than like, you know, love looking at people's faces. That's great. But like,

if you start talking long enough, it kind of goes right over my head. Like I got, I gotta have something to look at. Like I'm a podcast while driving person, not record listening to, but I need to do something. Right. So, so that helped. And so then, yeah, I took that idea. They had a lot of fun, but I was like, let's do this every week. And they're like, Haley, you're insane. We're not doing this every week. So I created the business around that and started offering virtual tastings to anybody who wanted one.

So at that point, that's when you turned into a business in 2020, 2021? Yes. Yeah. So the end of 2020, I basically took that idea. And then my husband and I had this little trip in the woods planned. We were going to go hiking and all this. But it was October in Seattle. And I don't know why we thought that that was going to be successful because it rained all weekend. So...

So instead, I took all these ideas that I had and he also helped me and we built a website and kind of started Cork and Fizz. Came up with the name. We had like a list of all these like wine related terms that we're trying to figure out, you know, how do we make something that sounds playful and fun but ties into wine? Yeah.

And so everything happened kind of on that weekend and it jumpstarted the business. And I think we need to just let everybody know, everyone that's listening, you actually officially call him, is it Mr. Fizz? Yeah.

I just call him Mr. Cork and Fizz. I saw somebody do that on Instagram. Just because like, I don't know. I mean, it's his name isn't a secret. You'll find it throughout places. But I just it's just kind of a cute thing. And he enjoys being known as Mr. Cork and Fizz. Oh, listen, when I was looking through your Instagram, I was like, Oh, okay, Mr. Cork and Fizz is out here helping and representing. So I love it.

Yes, he's wonderful. He does not shy away. I've been so grateful. We've done some like fun little blind tasting episodes and he'll jump on a video reel with me and never like, you know, fights me on. He's like, oh yeah, fun. That sounds good. I love that. Well, Haley, can I ask you, we're learning right now how you started Quirk and Fizz. When did the podcast come in?

Yeah, the podcast came in a year ago last June. And the idea behind it, I'd always wanted to do something a little longer format. I, you know, as we've kind of talked about, I love learning and then I also love teaching. And like, the way I like to learn is to listen.

learn in order to teach somebody else, if that makes sense. I think that works best for my brain and it encourages me and motivates me. And so I wanted a longer format way to talk to people and teach them about wine. And I also wanted this to be free. I didn't want people to have to pay for it because a lot of things in the wine world are expensive and I wanted there to be a free resource.

And so after looking at options, it kind of narrowed down to podcast versus YouTube. And video editing is really hard. And I'm really good at talking. Oh, and then the other option was a blog post too. But I'm terrible at sitting down and writing something down. So ended up, yeah, I ended up going the podcast route. Because I'm like, I can talk. I can do this stuff. Like, this will work. And so that's where the idea of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine came about.

Well, I watched a couple of, I was listening to a couple of your episodes. Absolutely amazing. And I'll tell you the way you break it down, because I think wine in general, like Chelsea said earlier, is just so overwhelming. And so I know one of the things that you were doing in one particular episode was you were breaking down the region and that there was a particular grape, but that the region had actually not used that grape. They used a different grape to make the wine. But I think in my head, I...

know that wine comes from grapes, but I don't always associate that they are so different because of the grape itself, right? And so I was like, oh, it started to make me think, well, that's the basis of everything she's teaching. Yeah. I mean, the whole wine world, like you said, I mean, there's so much to it. And I think a lot of times it creates this atmosphere of people are afraid to ask questions. Like

Even though it's like I give the example to people like if you put me on a basketball court and said like go do a layup, I'd look absolutely ridiculous because I've never done a layup on a basketball court. So like why should you have to know how to taste wine and know all of these grape varieties and know that the grape variety in the region impact the wine? Like why would you know that if you've never done it or learned about it before? We all got to start somewhere. Yeah.

Well, and I think most of us are just in the red wine, white wine category, champagne. Those are my three categories, right? I was going to say, that's definitely me. And look, that's the start. You got it. That's where we start. And then we start diving in from there. Well, Haley, can I ask you something?

Learning about your process and how you explain and describe wine, can I ask you, did you go into your podcast saying, I'm going to go about this differently, I'm going to teach people differently than, you know, other wine experts out there? Or did you kind of just stumble into it and notice that people needed more than just, this is a red wine from this region and blah, blah, blah?

See, this is not working because I don't know anything about wine. No, you're fine. You're fine. I think that's totally great. I think you're very much onto something of like the idea of how to teach about wine. Because I think, you know, going into the podcast, I did have the benefit of a lot of private tastings that I'd done. And I'd learned a lot in those tastings.

Because it's very interesting. I've learned being somebody who is an expert in something and then needing to teach about it. It's actually one of those things where like I've heard before where like some of the greatest players of different sports actually make really bad coaches because they don't know how to teach about the thing they're naturally good at or the thing they naturally understand. And I think that's been like...

one thing that like, you know, if I'm not to be, I'm the opposite of modest, whatever that is, but I do think that's my superpower. I think I'm pretty good at explaining things. You know, when I was in college, I was a computer science major and I also like prefected, which was kind of like TAing or tutoring for those things. And I understood, I could hear when other people explain things and it would just like go right over people's heads. And for me, it's like,

I love trying to find a way for something to make sense for somebody. And I will try three, four different explanations to,

until it clicks for somebody. Because there's always some way that something's going to make sense for someone. And so I think going into the podcast, I'd had experience from different wine tastings in the past and realizing that I can't just go in and be like, here are the grapes, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, da-da-da. Because like you guys said, you're like, I know white wine. I don't know what the hell you're talking about when you go like, Sauvignon Blanc, what? Or knowing that that's a grape versus Burgundy's a region. It's like,

what the heck are you saying? You've gone a step too far. I did not know that. That was really interesting. Just throw in little nuggets. Yeah. And so like recognizing that everybody's at a different step, you know, what's normal to me and like what is just like, oh, duh, that's da-da-da-da, is not the same for other people because it's that way for me and other subjects. Like if you started talking marketing terms, I'd be like,

I don't really know. I just kind of throw stuff out there and hope it hits, you know? So yeah, I had that experience to kind of go into the podcast. Not to talk about us, but that also is at the core of SOV marketing too. Because when we started the podcast, we were like, we want to be different than other people.

marketing podcasts and other marketing experts and stuff like that because you listen to them talk and you have no idea what they're saying. They're just throwing out buzzwords. Half the time, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to say something controversial. Half the time, they're not saying anything. They're just using buzzwords. So Vivian and I sat down and we very specifically said, this podcast is going to be for small business owners so they can understand marketing and

We're going to tell you straight up the facts. We're not going to use big fancy words or anything like that. You know what I think at the core, listening to you two talk about this too, is the one thing that I realized very quickly when we're talking, you know, about setting yourself apart from others, I feel like the big superpower here is just being yourself.

yourself. And I hate to even use the word authentic because I feel like it's been hijacked for like other stuff, right? But I feel like Haley, you know, talking to you, you don't know how to be anything other than what you are. And so that just translates into whether you're shooting a reel, whether you're shooting a TikTok or you're doing a podcast episode, it's like you are

your superpower in knowing how to take a complex subject and break it down and make somebody feel welcomed. Like, hey, come into this world because like everybody's invited here, right? And I think that's where, like Chelsea's saying, the same thing with marketing where so much of it is like, oh, I didn't go to school for that. Well, great. You don't have to because things change so often. And like, we just want to break it down with you, right? So tell me what the one thing that I saw that I absolutely loved you had is

And I think this speaks to that. You had a TikTok video that went viral. You got 2 million views, correct? Yes, I do have one that's gone very viral. And this one, what I loved about it, absolutely. I was like, this is the thing that is just magical about what you do. It was about

A decanter, correct? Okay, so basically that thing that people take red wine and you pour it into to let the wine breathe and you're supposed to let it sit for like 30 minutes, right? The one thing that you said in that reel or in that TikTok that absolutely, I was like, this is her putting a stake in the, you know, like a flag in the ground saying this is my territory is when you said, does it have to be, can you only do this for expensive wine?

And you said, no, I encourage you to do this for your $10 bottles of wine. And then I start reading the comments and I saw a lady that said, hey, I just did this with the wine I bought at Aldi's. Yeah, me, that's me, my $3 wine. Absolutely. Yay.

But that's the thing is I think what you did there is you're like, hey, if you're not out there spending $100 plus on a bottle of wine, that's okay. This is still something you can do that will help to improve the taste of the wine. And the way you explained it, I was just like, it was perfection. I loved everything about it.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. I think it's so important to, again, like we said, like start where people are at. Like you're not going to reach somebody if you're like, yeah, drink this $30 bottle of wine. When, like you said, I'm used to buying $3 bottles of wine. Like I'm not going to make that jump. Maybe I can talk to you about like, oh, at Trader Joe's, like here are some $10 bottles. That would be great to try. And then once you're there, maybe it's like total wine has these great bottles for 15. And then it's like,

Let me talk to you about this small business, this small producer that I think makes incredible wine. You're going to have to pay a little bit more, but trust me, it's worth it. And at that point, you've been brought up to that and you're a little more comfortable. And maybe at some point you stick around just with that $10 treat and that's fine. You can still love and enjoy wine at any

any level. I'm just going to teach you about all these different things so that you know how to explore. And I also loved what you said about like it being just you, like your own experience you're bringing to the table, because that's kind of how I got out of imposter syndrome. I think for a while it was like, who am I to teach people about wine?

But the thing is, I know I know about wine and the way I teach about it is not going to be the same way that anybody else teaches about it because they're not me. They simply can't. They don't have my experience or who I am. I'm going to teach it my way and the world deserves to have somebody who can teach it my way.

And so tell us, you have, let's see, you offer three services. You do virtual wine tastings, you do on-site wine tastings, and then you also do the, is it a community or is it the one where people can travel and meet you and have a whole like wine touring experience with you? So I've definitely like,

expanded my offerings. The way I break them down is I do private tastings, which incorporate those virtual ones or in person. So if you're in the Seattle area, I will come to you and host a tasting, bring the glassware, everything. You just have to get the wines. Virtual tasting, obviously, we meet online. So I cannot bring you glassware, unfortunately. We have a similar experience, but it's private. You and a group that you choose come and do the tastings.

And then I have this virtual tasting club, the community. It's called the Cork Crew. It's basically like a monthly tasting club. We get together, learn about two new wines every month. And then I bring in different people from the community. So that author of that book I loved, Cork Dork, Bianca Bosker, she came in and did a Q&A. And then I've had other winemakers come in. And so it's a way to like, I call it a community because you're meeting with the same people every month. And it just...

You get to feel this great connection with people all while learning about wine every month, all at home, which is like very comfortable. You don't need a DD. You don't need to worry about getting a taxi home. You can just enjoy some wine and your kids can be in the room next door because you're just tasting some wine, you know, and not having a whole bottle. So I do the membership. And then I've recently expanded into...

like tours and retreats. So right next to Seattle, it's a little place called Woodinville, crap ton of tasting rooms. And so I do like little day tours there, or I can host you for a full retreat somewhere around here as well, if that's of interest. And then finally, I have like little printables. I'm just starting to get into the world of like

like done for you tasting kits. So you can host your own, like my next one is going to be a wine and cheese pairing kit. So it'll have everything you need, shopping list, instructions, checklists, tasting guides. So you can host like a fun little wine and cheese pairing at your house with friends.

That is amazing. I was going to say genius. Genius. I love it. Yeah, I think it's because that way you don't have to like – and like you said, that same pressure of like worried about whether you know enough or anything like that, you don't have to worry about it. You got my exact tasting notes. I'm going to tell you which wines to buy, which cheese to pair it with, and you're comfortable because you're at home with friends and family and you can explore together. Well, and I think this is a great example of knowing your target audience. You know the people that listen to your podcast that –

invest in your community and all of those things, you know, this is the kind of thing that they want. Yeah. Like they're people that want to, like, they're not, that's one thing I've had to learn of like that target audience of like, I'm not looking for people that necessarily are me.

Right. Because the people who are me are going to go further, you know, in a way. Right. They're going to probably go beyond even my learning of wine. But even then, they still want community. They still want a fun way to learn about wine. But a lot of the times my target audience is somebody who just wants to do something fun with wine. They like wine. They want me to tell them what to buy. Great. I can help you with that. I got some lists, you know, things like that.

So I have to do my big sister duties here and tease Chelsea because the one thing you just said, which is, you know, I'm not necessarily my target audience. Her and I have had many a discussion about this. We're like, she'll tell me, she's like, well, I don't listen to YouTube and do this and that. And I'm like, it's not about you, boo. It's not about you. Okay. We've had this discussion between both of us. Okay. There have been times where I had to tell her that too, but it, it is,

The number one rule of marketing, the number one rule of business is you really need to know your target audience and you need to remember that you are not your target audience. It's also one of the hardest things to do. Now,

No, I really, I mean, I agree. And I think it's always like an adjustment, right? So you're always having to come, it's almost like you're, there's the center and then you start to veer off and you have to like auto-correct, right? It's like, oh, okay. But I love that you, you know, it's like you went into it and you were very strategic about the fact that

you knew your educating style was going to be just a tad different. And so that way it allowed you to attract this whole other audience of people. Because I'll say, I don't think personally, I wouldn't follow somebody that was saying,

sitting there using all these big words or trying to explain it at a level. You know what it reminds me of? I used to work FMB back in the day. I only waitressed for like, I want to say two days because waitressing was not for me, but I could hostess the crap out of some stuff. Okay. I was a good hostess, but they would let me sit in on these wine, like when the reps would come in and I always messed this word up, the sommelier. You got it. Yes. Okay.

the sommelier would come in and I would just kind of tune out. I'm like, I'm just here to taste it. That's really the only thing I want to do. Are you a small business owner feeling overwhelmed by marketing? We understand. That's why we created the SOB community just for you.

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Okay, so I do want to reel this back in a little bit to marketing because I do want to say some things in terms of marketing. Your unique selling point, who you are, it does not necessarily have to be your branding. It absolutely can be. Haley is a great example. Her brand and who her entire business is, is her unique selling point because it's different from other wine experts.

It could also be unique product features or customization. It can be the level of customer service that you offer. It can be how you market yourself. There are different ways to make yourself stand out against your competitors. It does not necessarily have to be who you are. Now, I want to say for small businesses, that's probably the easiest way to do it because you are you and there's no one else that is like you.

But if you wanted to go about it differently, if you wanted to focus on, you know, I have unique products. A great example is Dutch Boys. They have a twist and pour paint container. That's different. For customer service, an example I have...

I don't know how I feel about this example. It's from when I was in college. When I was in college and they were trying to teach us the exact thing we were talking about right now, my professor was like, Starbucks. And I was like, no. But he was like, Starbucks is a great example of providing that extra level of customer service.

And he was saying he goes to the same coffee shop every single day and they know him and they knew it was his birthday.

And he now that's the he always tells that story. That's like his favorite story to tell to every class. Like, oh, look at Starbucks. They do it so well. They know my birthday. That's knowing your target audience, because if I went to Starbucks and they were like, happy birthday, I'd be like, no, I'm never coming here again. Why do you know that? Like, I would be uncomfortable. So know your target audience that works for him, not for me.

Well, and I will say that for some people, like what's interesting is you hear of like, you know, premium brands, if premium is your thing, your flag in the ground, they say like Tesla has never done a commercial, right? Because they've never had to because the people they're trying to target are people.

you know, in a different group and they have other ways of reaching them besides paid ads. So I do think it does affect knowing that audience affects everything that you're doing. And Haley, I know I saw a reel that what was interesting to me is I feel like you do this

You keep your target audience top of mind, no matter what it is that you're putting out there. So there was a reel that you recently did, and it was asking basically wine enthusiasts what advice they would have for like people that are beginning, right, in their wine experience. And just two of the, well, three of them that stood out to me, one of them, there was a person that said, just because you don't like a wine doesn't mean that you don't like that grape, right? Because not all Chardonnays, for example, taste the same. The other one was drink what you like.

Okay. Like it doesn't matter if you like it, drink it. Don't, don't like change your, what do you call it? Your talent. Yeah. Your palate, because you think it'd be better like, oh, it's cooler to like champagne than it is to like Chardonnay. And then the last one was join a wine club. Right. So I think the thing is, it's interesting because even when you're not directly sharing the advice yourself, you're actually

asking your community, the people that are probably way more knowledgeable because everyone's kind of on a different tier, you're saying, hey, give the beginners, quote unquote, some advice. Like, what would you say to them? And so I just feel like that's so important because you're not just doing it when you're speaking, but you're encouraging that conversation outside of that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's and I think it's like important because like for me that just it really solidifies that like my community and my audience like I have really created that and like and I've done that with my content because I'm not afraid to say when I think something is kind of BS in the wine world. Like I will put that out there like, you know, I'll be like, I think clean wine is ridiculous. I don't know what a clean wine is. I think that's just marketing BS. Yes.

And so I know that nobody following me is going to be like that. I also am always like, I'm very approachable and I make the wine world approachable and I hate, I make fun of wine snobs, you know, that like try to make wine super fancy and elitist, you know? So I know those people aren't going to be following me. So I know that when I put something out there for others to teach others about it, you know, I know those people who are knowledgeable in my world are going to be very similar to me because why else would they be following me?

They would be annoyed by me. Right. Well, I think it's just so cool how you're – and I'm sure you take that into your community as well. Like in your community, like all these monthly calls –

I'm sure that the conversation is never stuffy. No, no. I mean, and that's the thing that's great. And like, we can learn from each other, which is really cool. There's a, there's a gal in the club who speaks Italian. So whenever we come across Italian wine, um, I ask her, I'm always like, all right, how do I say this? Cause like, I don't speak Italian. The only other language I know is Spanish. So I speak every, uh, foreign language with a Spanish accent and it's not right unless it's Spanish. Right. So, um,

I'll usually ask her and I'll be like, am I saying this right? You know, because you can look it up online and stuff like that. But it's nice to have somebody there who can like help out with that. And we're all, you know, we're all very encouraging. It's like if somebody smells a wine, it's like, oh, I smell this and this, you know, and somebody else will be like, oh, yeah, me too. I kind of get a little bit of that, but also some of this or, oh, no, actually my wine is very different. I don't get that, but I get this. But it's never a like,

you're wrong, I'm right. Because we all recognize that we're all having our own experience and we're all wanting to learn about wine in a very approachable way.

Going back to what Chelsea reminded me of, it's not a wine testing, it's a taste. Exactly. I'm very curious about that because like you said, in my experience, when they would bring the people in, they would give us a little bit of wine and they would go around the room and they'd say, what do you taste? And I was always kind of scared to like,

tell them what I was tasting. Cause I'm like, that's clearly not what anybody else is tasting, but is there something to do with your palate that it's very, I guess, different for everybody else. So maybe there are things that I don't taste as prevalent. Most of it actually has to do with your, your nose, your smell. So when, when it comes to wine and honestly, any food, most of the flavor comes from you smelling it. It's why like when you have a cold and your nose is all stuffed up, food doesn't have much flavor because,

Because you can't smell it, right? Your tongue can only taste like five to six different sensations, you know, sweet, sour, acidic, umami, right? There's only about six of them, but you can smell thousands of things. There's actually proof that we could decipher more smells than dogs. We just don't train our nose to do that.

Um, so the thing is when you're tasting wine, most of the taste comes from your nose and from smelling and smell is the sense that is most tied to your memory. It's actually a scientific thing. The, the way that it comes in, the sense, the, when you sense, or when you smell something, the, you know, when it goes back into your brain and for you to smell it, it goes directly past your hippocampus. And one other thing that are tied to memory in your brain.

And so your own experience and your own memories are going to determine what you smell in a wine. And that's why it's going to be different than the person next to you who's had a totally different experience. Yeah, that is so cool. I'm going to tell you guys the creepiest thing ever. But like I always tell my husband that like it's there's this weird thing with smell and memory. Right.

I had a babysitter growing up. I was very, very little. And so my mom was working at the time. I had a babysitter. I cannot for the life of me remember her name, but I remember her smell. Like I guess it was a certain type of lotion that she used. And I will be out in public sometimes and I catch a whiff of it. And I'm just like,

It instantly takes me back to feeling like I was a kid again with her. And I'll stop and think about her. And I'm like, I wish I could remember her name. But it is the weirdest thing. Like you said, it has the capacity to just like kind of, I don't know, make you time travel a little bit. Yeah. And it'll take you to that memory before it'll take you to the name of that smell.

That's the thing, right? You weren't trained on that smell. So like when people smell wine and they're like, I don't smell anything or maybe they're taken back to that memory, but they can't name it. That makes sense. You weren't trained again to do that. Instead, like, you know, I remember I'd smell a wine and there was one that smelled like my backyard because it smelled like lilac. We had lilac bushes. That's, you know, right. But I wouldn't know that until I realized the connection or like there was one that smelled like my dad because of his cologne. Turns out his cologne had sandalwood in it.

that was the smell I was getting. But it's like, you might not know the name of it until you figure it out, but it could take you to a memory and you know the smell, you just can't name it.

Haley has sold me. We're going to get into wine now. I feel like we're doing this like wine club, this monthly wine club for sure. I love it. Well, and the, what would you say Haley was like the hardest thing for you once you decided that like, you know, I'm going to approach this a little differently. I know you mentioned imposter syndrome. If someone's listening and they kind of feel that same way, they're like, you know, I, I,

Because I'm going to tell y'all, I feel and I feel this Chelsea sees the struggle with me all the time. I'm a corporate galley. I feel like we were trained to kind of remove our personality from like work. Right. That's why everyone says it's just business. Right. Like like somehow you're going to be different in business than you are as a person. Right. And so it's untraining myself and allowing myself to be to show up as who I am and have these opportunities.

opinions because I'm always so scared to have an opinion because I don't want to offend anybody, but I should, you know, be okay offending some people because those aren't the people we're trying to attract into, you know, that could benefit the most from this stuff. But I guess I say all that just to say, what would your advice be if someone's like, I want to show up and I know I have this unique way of presenting this, but I'm scared that I'm maybe going to, I don't know, lose some followers, get some pushback, not be as popular. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the, you know, the two things that come to mind of that first I've already mentioned is that like, you know, that imposter syndrome is like you are the only you. Nobody can do what you can do. And the world needs that. Right. Like.

this belief that like, imagine like one of your favorite, you know, content creators, your favorite businesses, your favorite, what if they let fear stop them? Wouldn't that suck to not have the thing that they created? Like you would so miss that. And so like, I think kind of putting yourself in those shoes, it took me a really long time. I don't know why. I've worked with a few different business coaches and, you know, working, I think that helps too, like having people to talk to and then being in these mastermind type things. But

recognize that your audience is out there. And just like you said, like when you're, if you say something and it scares people away, they're probably not your audience and that's okay. You probably want to scare them away. You know, like when I send out an email and it, you know, I get some unsubscribes, sometimes it makes me sad. But then other times I'm like, you know, I wasn't for them. Like that makes sense. I don't want them on the list if like they don't want to hear what I have to say. And like recognizing that like,

There are people out there that want what you are giving them. They exist. And I don't know why. Sometimes I get in my head and be like, I need to change it up. I just don't think people want an approachable wine teacher who does this and this and this. And y'all are already proving they're like, me, I want it. Yes, please. You know? Yeah.

That audience exists. Yeah, exactly. That exact audience exists. The one thing I want to focus in on, and Chelsea and I have talked about this a couple of times, there's with marketing, I think what we're trying to remind people is 50% of marketing is attracting the right people. 50% by nature, that means 50% of it is marketing.

pushing away the other people, right? So it's like this very, it should be a very clear way to, I think of it as a funnel, right? If somebody is not into what I'm doing, I don't want you in my funnel because then I'm spending money to push you down further into it to buy my product and service. And then I'm wasting money because you're just never going to buy from me, period. I have a question that's kind of interesting.

not on topic, but since you're right here, I really want to ask. I'm just kind of curious, what would you say is the most common question that you get from your audience? Ooh, good question. I think, I think the biggest thing is like, what, what should I drink?

you know, and there's different forms of that. You know, there's sometimes like the really straightforward, like, do you have any recommendations for, I had someone reach out and was like, I'm looking for a Chablis, which is a Chardonnay from a region in France. I'm looking for a Chablis. Do you have recommendations? It's for a Friendsgiving. I don't want to spend that much. You know, it's like super, super clear. And then other times it's just like,

listen, I look at the wine list at the restaurant and sometimes I just close my eyes and point at something. Can you help me pick something out a little bit better than that? I have an embarrassing story. So when I was in college, I studied abroad and we were in Prague, but we decided to take a trip to Italy. So we were in Venice and

I was only 19 at the time, but you know, abroad you can drink when you're 18. Just had to show my passport. So I was like, ooh, I'm going to drink. And I was like, ooh, I'll have this. I just picked a random wine because I don't know anything about wine. I'm like, this name sounds cool. I want this. And the waitress was like, that's a dessert wine. I'm not going to give that to you. And I was like, she's like, you can have it after you have your meal. And I was like, okay, thanks.

So you just didn't get it until after you were new? No, I just, I didn't get it at all because by then I was like, for sure. Well, you know, at that point you were like, okay, now I feel silly. Yeah, I mean, I feel like there are so many better ways. First of all, you can drink a dessert wine whenever the hell you want. Like, who says that you have to wait until...

We need to go back and tell 19-year-old me this, okay? Because 26-year-old me is like, absolutely. I would have been like, I want it anyways. But 19-year-old me would not. Well, and then even if it was like, even if you didn't know that and she wanted to tell you that, you know, there's a nice way to say like, hey, just want to check in. Like that's a sweet wine typically

had it dessert. Do you still want it now? Or would you rather have, you know, this or this? Again, like, I feel like it's like that, that educational piece. Cause yeah, all you needed was probably like that one interaction. And then you're like, well, shit, I don't want to try it anymore. Like, I don't want to talk about wine at all anymore. Yeah. That's exactly what happened. I did think that story was going to go somewhere else. I thought she was going to honestly be like, I pointed to something and it was like a thousand dollars and then she paid a thousand dollars. No, absolutely not.

Well, and that's the other thing too is like some people are like, you know, if they give me a big wine list at a restaurant, I typically just go for the second cheapest, you know, because I don't want to go for the cheapest, but I've heard the second cheapest is the best, you know? And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's not wrong. But like also just like how do I try new wines? How do I find wines that I like that, you know, because I think a lot of people are afraid to try new wines and get away from the wine they're used to trying because they're like, well, what if I don't like it?

And I'm always like, well, what if your whole life all you ate was chicken nuggets because you knew you liked chicken nuggets, but that was it. And you were like, that's it from there. I'm only going to like, wouldn't that be like, I mean, I love chicken nuggets, but I'd get sick of them. And it's like, why not have the same attitude with wine? Like there is a very, very, very low chance you're going to hate the wine. It might not be your favorite, but you're probably going to like it enough to drink it. Why not take that risk?

to try it. But I think it helps to have a little bit of that knowledge about each of the wines, you know, and understand it a little bit better. So like, you know, when you're ordering chicken cordon bleu, right? You're like, I know kind of, I know I like chicken and I know I like this, you know, so I know I'll probably like it. And so it's like with wine, if you see a Chardonnay from France, you know, if you see something called Burgundy, you'd be like, oh,

oh yeah, I know that that's a Chardonnay and I've had one of those before. So that might be a good one to try. Like you just want to know enough to like be able to choose wines to drink.

And listen, if you guys are listening to this, I want you to take what Haley just said and actually apply that to your marketing too. If you are not experimenting with marketing initiatives or stuff like that, that it just means that you're, I don't know, you're kind of stuck, right? And so great, it might be working for you, but you don't know if something else might work a

little better at a cheaper cost or you know what I mean? So I think the experimenting and the being open to trying new things is definitely a big deal. But Haley, you said something else that caught my attention and that was

You utilize social media, podcasts, all that to share information, to get people kind of into your community so that they know about you and then you're front and center to them. But you also have an email list, which means that you're nurturing, right? That community and that relationship. How often do you send out your emails at once a month, once a week?

Yeah, so I've, I've changed it up a little bit recently. When I first started the mailing list, I sent out about a weekly email. And I never had anything super strong. It was just kind of like, Oh, what are we gonna talk about this week? Great, let's throw it out there and see what happens. And so I've moved to about a bi weekly. So I, or I guess twice a month, I feel like that either means twice a week or twice a month.

You're right. It's bi-weekly. Yeah. It confuses me too. I'm always like, that doesn't sound right. I know, right? Every other week. And usually I send one that's just like, you know, about one of my offers and, you know, or my story or something like that. And then once a monthly roundup, like what's going on in my life. But I've actually, I think this is a great part of marketing. This is an area that I've always been like,

I have this mailing list. What do I do with it? I want to make sure people feel nurtured and they feel like they're getting stuff from me. And I've always seen it as like, just take it next level above what social media gets, which I think is a good intro way to get into it. But I've been slowly trying to create, you know, workflows and connect them to like my, you probably know the word form, but the things where people sign up for the, for like a freebie and then it brings them into my workflow, you know?

Yeah. So I've been, you know, working on building those so that it like people come in and then I direct them to things that they would like. Right. I think right now I'm very much just like, here's what I do. And instead it'd be like, oh, you bought my 15 wines under $15. You just want me to tell you what wine to buy. Great. Did you know I also am building this wine and, you know, wine and cheese business.

done for you at home tasting kit, you're going to love that too. And not, they're probably not somebody that wants a private tasting. They just want me to tell them what kind of wine to buy. Right. So long story short, I'm still, it's still a work in progress, but we're, we're getting there. That is perfect. That is exactly what you need to do with your email list.

You are segmenting your audience and making sure that you're delivering the information that they actually want, right? We don't want to send messaging out to people who don't really want to hear about that part of your business. Vivian and I have a course called Rock Your Fair. It is about

how to participate in vendor markets and craft fairs. Okay, you would not be interested in that. We're not going to tell you anything about that. We're not going to waste your time. We're not going to waste our time because it's not something you would be interested in. And that's perfectly okay. We can send you to a different segment

of what we have and I think it's like and I think like an important thing at least for me and you guys tell me if I'm wrong I think this is you're the you're the experts in it but like one thing that overwhelmed me when it came to mailing lists at first was like I felt like I needed to do that from the get-go and then I was like terrified of like how to do it and I was worried that I'd never be able to have that unless I started with that and then let it kept me from like doing it and so I've now have learned to take the approach of like like I just told you I'm like this is what I'm working towards do I have that yet no I'm

but I'm working towards having that eventually. In the meantime, I send out these emails and people have stuck around quite a bit. So I think it's working okay. But it's like, there's always something I can go to. It doesn't have to be perfect right away.

Well, and I think that's the thing that keeps most people from doing or starting any initiative is they don't want it to be messy. And I'm sorry to tell y'all, it is messy at first because the thing is, how do you expect it not to be? You've never set something up or done something like you just got to get your feet wet in order to then feel comfortable and know the full capacity of the platforms you're using and the, you know, the downloads you have. But I'm with you. It was interesting when I started doing

the email list, it was very basic. And then I was like, oh, I want to do a welcome sequence. So then anytime someone comes in, I send them a set of like two emails, three emails. And then, you know, well, if they like this download, then they'll like this. They might be interested in the course, but that's all stuff that you build over

over time. So you never, you know, you never build the machine first. You got to like put the parts together and then it starts to, to all fit. So Haley, to wrap up this conversation, I'm going to ask you a very loaded question. I'm sorry, but for Haley,

the small business owner that is struggling to find their niche and their unique selling point, what is one thing they can do today to start that journey? Ooh, that's a good question.

The first thing that comes to mind, so I'm just going to go with it. I'm like, maybe there are better answers. But the first thing that comes to mind is honestly ask people. You know, like my business started with my friends and family supporting me. And like my, I think I was in business probably three months before I had my first virtual tasting booked.

where I didn't know the person ahead of time. So, you know, but like, like those friends and family who are supporting you, they are true customers, you know, and they are seeing you from the outside. So I think, you know, to me, it kind of helped hearing an outside perspective and to hear like, what is it about what I say that like, you know, connects with for you? And what do you like? What did you like about this tasting or what, you know, and like, kind of

And hearing from other people, I mean, obviously you, you know, you want to do some of it internally. You don't want it only determined by people from the outside. But I think it's a good place to start. And like, because you're, a lot of people are, you know, don't, they want to be humble. They don't want to brag about what they're good at. And they don't want, you know, you're almost trained to not notice that. Yeah.

Uh, and so hearing from other people might help you kind of pinpoint what that is. I love that too, because I think too, there isn't enough separation as a person, um,

What people do is something that comes naturally to them, they don't think anything of. They're like, oh, but I just do that every day. I'm naturally curious and I'm going to dive headfirst into something and come up with all these slide decks and do all that because that's just who you are. You're a natural dork. You just like...

diving headfirst into stuff. But that's your power. The thing is, no one else is going to do that. And so I think that's where it's nice to have a group of people that sometimes are like, no, no, no, this is definitely the one thing that sets you apart. Yeah. I think that and then combine that with the one thing that came later for me was like, what do you like doing?

Right? Like, I think that's so important as a niche and especially in starting your own business. Like, you didn't start your own business to do stuff you didn't like to do. So, like, you might experiment and try some things. But, like, in the end, it's like – like, because I do have a blog. Technically, there are some blog posts. And every once in a while, I throw something on there. But, like, I don't like writing very much. So, like –

That is not for me. And so it was like realizing that like no to the blogging, but I do like educating people for free. How about a podcast instead? You know, I like that aspect of it.

Thank you for saying that. I always, it blows my mind. Like, you know, I, you know, I work a big girl job. I do this on the side and I'm like, why would I make my life miserable by doing stuff I do not like doing in my free time? That is just the craziest thing. And you're not going to love every aspect of it. That's fair. But like, I think it just takes like looking at the things you offer and be like, do I get enough benefit out of this to keep doing it? Well, Haley, it was wonderful.

It's wonderful talking with you and we 100% would love to have you on again. This has been great. We are three dorks all together. It works really well. And I can tell you're just like us. You can talk.

I sure can. But Haley, why don't you go ahead and tell everyone where they can find you, you know, anything you want to mention about Cork and Fizz. Yeah. If you want to come find me, if you're, you, you enjoy listening to podcasts. So since you're listening to this, I do have a podcast all about the wine world and learning about all aspects of it. You can find it. The Cork and Fizz guide to wine is what it's called. It's on all the podcasting apps. Um,

And then if you want to dive deeper into the world of wine, come follow me on Instagram. I am at Cork and Fizz. You can find my website for all of my different services that I offer. It's just CorkandFizz.com. Trying to keep it very simple around here. Just search Cork and Fizz and you're bound to find me.

And so we've got everything from those private tastings, virtual or in person. We've got that court crew virtual tasting club, the private tours and retreats. And then, of course, depending on when this comes out, I'm working on that new those new done for you kit. So that wine and cheese pairing one will be the first one. But I'm hoping to have more and more of those coming out. So keep an eye on those in my shop.

Well, listen, I think this episode is actually going to come out before Christmas. If you guys are looking for some Christmas gifts or even some stuff to some fun things to do on New Year's Eve, that's right up their alley. So go ahead, check out those downloads, those products. And we have thoroughly enjoyed having you on here, Haley. And I think you definitely have given Chelsea and I a new appreciation for

for all things wine. So we appreciate your time. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. And go be the best SOB you can be, y'all.