全英文加更｜如果睡不着，不如不睡了｜学者说
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Hello everyone, I'm Nanxi Hello everyone, I'm Sijia We are Wan Xiang Update In addition to the 8-hour time limit, how can we measure whether you sleep well?

What should I do if I can't sleep before an important event? What impact does those sleep supplements have on sleep? With the opportunity of the World Sleep Day, the new anchor of the World Sleep Day, Nancy Nan, a sleep coach who talks to Bekham, and the author of the book "Sleep Revolution", Nick Littlehouse, we will talk about the myths of sleep together. This is our first time to present the content of a full-English dialogue, and we hope to bring you the original first-hand experience.

We have made two versions. Now you are listening to the audio book version, "The Conversation between Nancy and Nick". We also made a video version with Chinese and English subtitles with our partner Weidu. Welcome to check the link in the show notes. If the English version of the video audio makes you sleepy, we also made a Chinese highlight to pick up the medicine. Welcome to contact our little assistant to join the audience group to receive it. We hope you will support our innovative attempts. We will try our best to bring you the latest scientific knowledge and the latest live experience.

Hello, everyone. My name is Nancy. Welcome to WANxiang Gengxin podcast, where we fuse women's health, evidence-based science and liberal arts creativity for the women's health in the new era. So today we have a special guest, Nick. So today we're talking about one of the biggest game changers for your health, sleep.

Why do some people wake up feeling drowsy, even if they have a long sleep? Why do they wake up in the middle of the night? And can you catch up on the sleep debt? So some of the many questions that we're going to answer today with Mr. Nick Holtz.

little details yeah so nick um you are a sleep coach yeah yeah so i know that you've coached some of the uh world's renowned names such as um david beckham and esternal ronaldo as well yeah so would you like to introduce yourself a bit and most importantly we are introducing nick's book which has been a

best-selling book in multiple international best-selling international best-selling book we call it sleep revolution uh

So Nick, would you like to give a say? Absolutely. I'm not sort of a clinical professor of sleep. I'm not sort of academic in sleep. I spent a long time in the sleep industry working for a big company as an international sales and marketing director for a big comfort group. I helped set up the first UK Sleep Council, which was a council trying to educate the population of the UK about sleep.

because we didn't have one before but I was the chairman of that. Spent quite a lot of time interacting with professors of sleep and that sort of clinical side and learnt a lot from that and travelled the world and watched how everybody slept all over the place in different parts of the country. I think in the end I just realised that why sleep was very important to us all

It was this sort of fourth health pillar tagged on to the other things we do very well like eating and drinking and exercising and then we sort of fit sleep in at the end of it. So I think it was a very random approach. I couldn't find any definitive guidelines. There was some random bits of information which everybody pretty much ignores. So I sort of went, I've had enough of this. So maybe a bit of a

you know, midlife crisis moment in that thought in my mid 40s. How old were you? 42. Okay. And so I thought, yeah, I had enough of this and decided to leave the company. I had to work a 12 months contract because I was the director of a big company. And during that 12 months, I was able to, you know, just work my garden leave. And so I was kind of still with the company, but not

And I did a little fun thing by sponsoring a local football club to the factory in the UK, which is near Manchester in the northwest in the UK. And because I sponsored the team's kit by putting the company's name on the shirt, I got invited to a few football events. And I happened to bump into what's known as Alex Ferguson, who is the manager of Manchester United. And this was...

The late 90s, about 1998, a long time ago. Yeah. You know, I'd kind of put my thoughts about sleep together. I've heard that. Yeah. Why don't we use that? I've had a sporting background, you know. So I used to play professional golf. Okay. So I had a little bit of a sports coaching mindset. So I just happened to have a conversation with Sir Alex Ferguson. Yeah. And, you know, like...

in a sort of general way you would with anybody. And you just ask a few questions like what do you do with the players about sleep? It's like nothing. So there's a huge gap in there. Probably that conversation would have stopped right there and then. But he was very interested in anything you didn't know about. Well, let's find out. So I started to have some conversations with the physio and the doctor and the coaching staff.

And then we started to do one or two little things with two or three of the players. You mentioned David Beckham. The team at that time was called the Class of 92, which had David Beckham and Ryan Giggs. And they went and won the treble in football, which was a unique thing. They won three major tournaments. So there was a lot of focus on them.

And so those players were kind of influencing the national squad. And the national squad got in touch with me and said, what are you doing? Yeah. Because there was no such thing as somebody who talked about sleep. Yeah. Nobody. So they kind of put two and two together and thought, well, if he's in sport, he must be a coach. And he talks about sleep. So he must be a sleep coach. Yeah. And I thought, well, that's me. So I adopted the title.

And then that led to other premiership clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea. They were all intrigued. There was a manager called Arsene Wenger who was French and he came and coached a manager for Arsenal Football Club. Yeah. And he had a completely different attitude towards managing people and performance. I've heard.

he would be very much into sensory things. He would be into holistic things. He would stop them doing all the normal things footballers might do, like stay up too late or eat chocolate or maybe have a beer or wine or two. He'd just, nope, we're performance athletes. So it was a big shift. So they were very fascinated in this subject. So there you go, and it's just been...

We're over a couple of decades in. That journey has gone into professional cycling and Olympic Games. Pretty much any sport you could think of, I've touched. Not gender specific, but from equestrian riders to horse riders to swimmers, netballers, snowboarders, esporters. Because it's about the human being.

their occupation happens to be elite sport and i found a way of putting things together that sort of narrative of kind of technique to go well if we look at that raise your awareness there and we look at that we look at that then little tiny things inside of there it's called the sort of aggregation of marginal gains you know the little one percent factors yeah so raise your awareness on that

have a look at that and do that and then we end up with some really practical and achievable sort of tactics yeah maybe some of your habits a little bit remastered

Take some of those myths away. You know, like get your eight hours all in one block. Speaking of myths, we do have a fast fire set of truths or myths that we would like to go by. So the rule is that we're going to go very fast and you're going to say truths or myths and then a quick explanation. What happens if I get it wrong?

Uh, we'll see. I haven't decided that yet. So okay, get started with the first one. You can catch up on lost sleep over the weekend. Truth or myth? Myth. Okay, any fast explanation? Or just go with it? All you're doing is enjoying some extra time in bed, probably going to sleep a little bit and everything else. But all you're doing is just confusing your brain because it's all about 24-hour patterns and rhythms, not...

One day to the next. Excellent. Okay, second one. Some people can train themselves to function on a four to five hours of sleep per night. That's true. That's true? Yeah. Okay. It's not, you wouldn't say train, but as humans, we actually can quite easily sleep in what's called a polyphasic or triphasic way. That's multiple times in the day until we started changing our world and we were more synchronized with the planet.

So you can adopt a very natural human approach if you try and train yourself to do it.

All it means is you just practice it and see if it works for you, but it doesn't work for everybody. Yeah, exactly. In fact, we found only 1% with the DEC2 gene mutation. That's why I said be careful, train yourself. It sort of suggests that you can sort of go off and start sleeping less hours. But you can use my techniques to find out what's your optimum hours and it doesn't always have to be 8 or 9, it can be 4 or 6. Which we're going to dig into after this game.

So third one, using blue light filters on phones makes screen time at night harmless.

Is that true? No, because screen time at night is about overloading yourself with rubbish or overloading yourself with too much information or overstimulating yourself. The amount of blue light that comes off our tech, you've got fuses and everything, is so low, you can see lots of research now where they're backtracking. It's a good thing to stop interacting with the stuff, but I wouldn't just do it and then put your blue blockers on or put your screens on, right?

yeah so even with filters bright screens delay melatonin as well so we're gonna talk about that later um okay this is gonna be related to our podcast a woman needs less sleep than men is that truth or myth i would say myth okay yeah well you got a bingo so a woman needs more deep sleep but suffer more from insomnia from research but we can talk more about that absolutely um

Okay, this is related to the French I guess drinking wine before bed helps you sleep better. Is that true? Depends on how many glasses. Okay. All right. Yeah, and what do you mean before bed? I mean directly before bed or in the pre-sleep or the before you go I think I think generally you should always avoid any

any sort of alcohol close towards sleep. Yeah, which might impact negatively the sleep quality even though you seem to be sleeping better. Yeah, it sedates you basically. Yeah, that was interesting to get the public, there are some public myths that people might believe in, drinking wine or blue light, all these type of things. So very interested in digging deeper into each of the points.

what I'd like to start with, cause you did talk about in your experience, a lot of the training athletes, right? So we do know that there are certain sets of quality that athletes may have. They are super good at, you know, following the rules or being compliant, right. Uh, but which make them, uh, a good sample to study when we, when we, uh, come to sleep. Right. So you did come up with this R90, uh,

Would you mind talking a little bit about that? What does R19 mean? I'll try to keep it short. Principally, faced with... because I didn't really know what I was doing when I met Manchester United, we started having conversations and then I started to dig into my thoughts and experiences of how I'd start to explain that to the physios and the coaches and they have no idea what we're on about.

So I would mention something like chronotype and they would look at me and go, what's that? I might mention circadian rhythms and they go, what? So it's kind of like, how do I gather a language? So all it was is I had come across that in the clinical world with some professors I'd done some work with, that they would measure the sleep stages in a 90-minute period. Some 60, but some 90.

And during that 90 minute period, the various stages would develop and then they'd look at the next 90 minutes and the next 90 minutes. So 90 minutes is the length of a football game. Okay. Wow. Okay. That's interesting. So I thought, ah, let me use that to engage them.

And that's how, you know, talk about sleep, but not in a way of a passive way, but it's a proactive process. And we can do something about it and get some benefits from it that will help everything else you do. So it was really just to try and keep their attention is to, you know, there's a 90 minute cycle. There's a little gap in between to reset and restart.

And if we look at that as five 90-minute cycles, that's 7.5 hours, which sort of defines the eight hours that they would have in their head. So there's sort of five 90-minute cycles, and there's cycle one, cycle two, cycle three, cycle four. And they're all kind of slightly different, but it sort of gave them a different way to think about sleep rather than one long block of just doing nothing.

So that's really where it came from was recovery and making you more resilient and reset and regain and all those wonderful R's that are performance wise. But it was basically recovery in 90 minute cycles. And that was the way it was encapsulated. And like we have in sport.

KPIs, the key performance indicators. I just put an S in there and said these are the key sleep performance indicators and called them KSPIs. And so we have seven KSPIs and you just take somebody on a little journey from one to number seven and by the time they've gone to number seven they will have been able to find little tiny things in all of those that they can practically just start to do

and change their tomorrow. So it's like the investments, so it's just like just making them more aware of the little key factors that are in play. But if they're always doing things that are against helping their brain do this because you're not in control of it. So it's kind of, it is your behavior while you're awake that enables your brain to take over and give you what you want. You can't just go, I'm going to sleep. So the R90 technique was basically

It's complete focus on what you actually do from the point of wake, not what you do sort of just before you go to sleep. So I guess you mentioned the concept of performance, right? For athletes that's super important and for everyday life, especially some of the working populations, it's also important to feel I'm performing and you get the confidence from performing as well, right?

But when it comes to performance, you have certain steps to follow, right? And I like the concept that when you bring the R90 instead of, you know, regular people say I have to keep an eight-hour sleep. That brings more, I guess...

subtleness and more complex factors to be taken into account. So starting with the performing athletes, right? What have you found? Is there some data you found that when people are sleeping well, how does that impact their performance? Specifically, maybe some examples of some of the people you work with?

There's quite a bit of research that's always been around and it's continued to develop about cardiovascular performance, heart rate variability, HIV. There's quite specific data around that. I think the main thing that I've always found, even though we've got, if you don't measure it in sport, they sort of really don't want to do it.

But even with all the trackers that have been around for a long time, but then when they start tracking sleep, I think generally for us, it's more an emotional and feeling criterion. That if somebody's happy, they're not worried about their sleep. They seem to enjoy going to sleep. They feel energized in their sleep. They don't...

feel they're in a bit more control about it, then there's almost endless, from alertness to mood to motivation to decision making. Everything about you as a sort of human being, the way we would look at it is if you want an athlete to be at their peak performance when they're asked to do, because they just have to do it on that day at that time, is if they've been able to

find a way to go into a training program, then the sort of technique enables them to go through that process of almost shifting how they go around their day, shifting from two cycles to three cycles to six cycles, sleeping midday or late afternoon in shorter periods, which you'd call naps. We call them controlled recovery periods. So what they do is they're able to just sort of manage their sleep and almost decide

That we're not going to sleep.

the night before a big event because the adrenaline, the cortisol, anxiety and stress is so high, trying to force yourself to sleep means you probably tap into... Counterproductive ways, yeah. Sleeping pills and things. So a lot of the times it's to protect them but to give them confidence that it's not about how many hours they're trying to bank. It's sort of during this week we're going for 35 cycles. They look like this with 7 CRPs and 42 MRMs.

And so we have a bit more of an approach to it. So they are easier to coach because you don't need to tell them how to drink. You don't need to tell them how to eat well or train and exercise well. So those health pillars and they're committed. So you tell them that that's going to make them feel like that and they'll do it. However...

their demands are much higher. So their expectations from somebody like me is, yes, I'll do this and yes, we'll do that, but I better win that gold medal. Yeah, I think that's very interesting because I think in the East Asian culture, there's also a tendency to perform, right? So we want to be getting A's, we want to be on the A list, more like the mindset of athletes as well.

I like something that you said about, I mean, of course, the latest research, when I read it, consistency is important. But I like your approach when it comes to

you kind of think in a longer interval of setting expectation okay we can have 35 good cycles rather than before every sleep you're getting you know kind of self-punished but it's okay you still have the week the rest of the week to go i think that practicality really is is helpful i think that's the difference between you know what's on paper and what's practical when you're coaching yes i think you can't that's why i said it's it's

it's not an argument as you well know that within that 24 hour and a bit block that we've put a clock on then the human being wants to be in that sort of 30 plus percent recovery state which equals about eight hours

However, up until we invented electric light, we never tried to get all that recovery in one block. And that was not that long ago, in the 30s. So it's kind of like we were multi-phasing our recovery. And it wasn't always about being fully asleep. And there's a piece of research just come out now that even when you're awake in the middle of the night, you can actually be in a sleep phase while you're awake on the earth.

oh wow, didn't know that. So this sort of emerging technology is allowing us to do things. It's sort of like, well, we've always been, you're awake in the middle of the night, that's wrong. So the worry and anxiety. So I think it really does help somebody think about that.

Just like I've traveled into China from the UK and the travel time and the flights and the time zones and the food and the culture and the hotels and nothing's familiar. So you sort of go, well, just because I'm in a hotel room with a bed in it, it doesn't mean to say that I'm going to try and sleep in it. It is somewhere to stay between here and there. So you kind of think, well, during that period of time while I'm traveling,

I will be very much looking at where the opportunities are for me to just go. But if I'm doing this on a more regular basis, it's not a shock to my brain. It knows, it's like, right, do it, bang, do it, do it. And so you start to become really confident. And that, the biggest enemy for sleep is worrying about it. You know, it's like, will I get to sleep? Will I wake up? Will I wake up too early?

I spend all that time sleeping and then when I wake up I go, oh heaven's sake, give me a coffee. Give me a break. What was all that about? It's sort of, where's the benefit? Is it a waste of time? But they sort of, you know, when I'm getting, I'm not getting back from the airport till 12 o'clock. I won't get back home till 2 o'clock in the morning. Well,

where's my eight hours gone you know I'm gonna need to catch up and go to bed early or stay in bed no no no you'll just get three cycles yeah right between the your anchor reset point which I call your sunrise which is your most consistent start to your day which we kind of like because you're creating your sunrise so we've got an anchor reset point and at mine

It's always been, because I'm a morning chronotype person, it's always been about 6 or 6.30, I'm always awake. So I choose 6.30 because it's easy to remember on the hour, half an hour and 90 minutes.

chop your day up into 90 minute cycles, you get 16 and then you start thinking, well, cycle one, I'm going to do some things that help me as a human about eating, drinking, moving,

What? In the first cycle of my day? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're just going to look out of that window for two minutes and get some of that lovely daylight. And that's going to help you as you wander along through your day and help your brain later. Oh, right. So I put an ink on it and made it a proactive fourth pillar. Yeah. Because I'm going sleeping. Yes. So rather than it sort of, oh, no.

there's only eight hours left shut the email down stop that stop doing your netflix put the kids get off the social media try to listen to some whale noises put a candle on you know get some binarial beats and go to sleep so you have really not been helping your brain today so why would you expect it to go off and develop those lovely stages i have a strong feeling as you're describing that a bit passionate maybe

Well, we need that. We know this is kind of your, you know, something that you feel very strongly about. But I couldn't help but to reflect on what you're talking about, right? It's really when we're talking about sleep, we should really talk about the psychology of sleep. And I can see that when you're doing your coaching, as you were describing this experience, really to manage the expectations.

and what sort of reinforcement you give, right? You want people to not feel punished or being anxious about what they didn't do, but to celebrate something that they've done and take a more proactive attitude to it, right? And could you maybe describe a specific case, maybe

In our opinion, maybe more interesting some of the female case as well. We know David Beckham, but you know, are there any female case and especially maybe a very curious the first female case you come across? Because one of the parts of my roles keep confidential. Yeah. Otherwise they don't let you into their bedroom. Yeah. You know, so it's, but I,

I'm happy to talk about the general case. First, she was 17 years old. She was a professional mountain cross rider, cycler, you know, mountain biking. And she was about to get on to the Olympic framework. So as an athlete that can go on to be Olympic.

Pretty much she's on her own because it's an individual sport. They don't get involved with teams. She shared a coach with a number of other people because they had no money. They were funded by things like the lottery or parents. And she's 17. She was immersed in her world like everybody is with the social media and engaging and all that stuff. She was getting advice from

through social media looking for things that would help her she was extremely anxious and stressful about lots of things because she had to dedicate herself to a sport in order to try and achieve what she wanted she couldn't be going off to parties and doing other things and having lots of hobbies it was literally she trains and that's her sport and so it's very intense

Principally, as anybody would know, as you go through each month there are challenges. So she found it was extremely anxious, she became very isolated. She struggled to sleep at all, couldn't get into sleep, couldn't stay asleep. She was using quite a lot of sleeping tablets because she found a way of accessing sleeping tablets without medical advice online, it comes in a little box.

And she sort of goes, well, they're sleeping tablets, aren't they, Nick? She said to me, you know. I said, well, yeah, but they're not really for sleeping. They're to help the clinician try to reset the disorder and should be treated in a very short... Oh, I'm just taking them every night. So basically what happened is...

is I just became her friend for a number of months and we just... How did you meet? She contacted me. So she were aware that she had a sleeping issue. Her coach contacted me because their focus is on her performance, her nutrition and her training programs and this was a bit more like, well, she's struggling to sleep. Well, we don't know anything about that because we're not in control of it. And it was her personal space.

So I think what happened, we were able to find some really, there was a few little sensory things that were quite unique to her, which she never knew she could use them to help her sleep. One of them was a smell of the washing powder her mother used washing her bed. To keep the comfort? Yeah, yeah. Okay. She, because she was still half living at home, and then she'd live away. And it's sort of like, well...

She was having hotels and little things like that. There was tiny little things, things that would help her really reset from a sound aspect, which doesn't always have to be melodic and calming. It's just something that helps her just reset.

She would also start to feel very comfortable because I might be with her and say, right, stop, get off the bike, let's sit on the grass by the tree. And we'd just sit there and just look. And I'd say, you know what's happening now, right?

Because you took your glasses off, you took your helmet off. We're just getting a bit of this daylight. I won't bore you with all the science, but there's something going on here which is called serotonin. And it's sort of trying to keep us nice and balanced and the mood's right and stuff. And we're listening, aren't we? Cool. Back on the bike. Do that. So we created breaks. So what happened is, is rather than trying for her to sleep...

and worry about her sleep at night, that she wasn't getting her eight hours, that she'd struggle with that and everything else. We shifted her recovery approach to lots of little tiny breaks, getting them in, little moments like that. 30 minute CRP, we just did nothing. And sometimes she'd go into a microsleep, sometimes she didn't.

we did it the more it happened that took the pressure off her phase three part of the day it made her able to stay up later like not try to go to sleep too early because that's what she was trying to do go to sleep early to try and think if she can get some sleep if she gave enough hours to it so she had more space in the evenings to do more social stuff instead of rushing around

That made her feel good. It made her feel that when she actually got to the point of going to sleep, she would go through four 90 minute cycles and get her full six hours undisturbed, wake up and go. And she knew that all of these little factors, instead of pushing it and pushing it and pushing it, she was more productive, went quicker, was happier, came off the pills and felt so much more confident about her 24 hours that she

She just went from somebody who was probably heading towards unfortunately failure in that sense. She wouldn't make it. She absolutely smashed it. Okay, so she did reach the requirement basically. But we did it without her coach's support. Oh, so her coach didn't recognize the importance of this? He had no idea what I was on about and felt like

She should be on that treadmill, you know in the gym Smashing it like this. Yeah, so for every 60 minutes and she should and I went no She's gonna sit here with me, you know towel over the head listen to some music We're just gonna sit here and we're just gonna take five minutes out and she's you know, right cool Yeah onto the treadmill for 50 minutes, not 60 and we get better results. Yeah anyway, that don't make sense and

That doesn't make sense. What's she doing sleeping in the afternoon? She should be training. What's happening is, in your 24 hours coach, what you've got, I'll call her Susie, shall I? Susie is barely 65% out of, let's not be perfect,

but she's probably at least 20% away from the kind of individual in an overall sense than you're getting out of her because you're pushing it too far. And after a very short space of time, he realised that...

we should start coaching everybody in the whole cycling squad. Yeah. Including himself. Including himself. He's also an athlete, I reckon. Sometimes the thing you have to do in any organization is you know, sort of... See the change. You need to get the people at the top to shift their behavior. That's generally where we all fail is because we're following everybody's rules and we're following all those schedules and those disciplines that we think are the right thing to do. In fact, we should just take a step back

So working with young athletes, and particularly female athletes, the challenges they face are different kind of challenges I face. I'm still in the same world as them. I'm not completely lost it because I'm old and old school. If you're completely immersed in this 24/7 world, you can easily just get yourself locked away because

You just feel you can't engage with anything. You can't go outside. You can't engage in social media without seeing reactions. You're watched. You're concentrated. And the expectations are, if you don't reach some very high peak performance levels,

numbers yeah they'll just drop you yeah exactly i mean there is i'm quite surprised the coach you know there's kind of a delay before the coach get get buying right but there are some data like nasa found that a 26 minute power nap improved pilot performance by 34 percent and the alertness by 54 we also know lebron james sleeps like 12 hours per day is that true by the way is

They kind of say that, but I think you know as well as I do. Yeah, I sleep 15 hours a day. What they're basically doing is allocating that amount of time to doing nothing. Right. And inside of that, basically, if we actually wired them up, you know, front to low and looked at

nah not really they're thinking wandering around in this sort of light sleep mode and then suddenly a bit of deep sleep might happen so they're allocating all this time to be they could actually do it in much shorter period yeah so how many quality cycles did they get is the key question basically yeah i see well that's so interesting i think well it might you know at the end of the day if you do things with people yeah um

And it really works. You know, like they come off speaking tablets. That's a good piece of data. It's a good piece of research. I don't take them anymore. I'll stop doing this. Or I'm like, wow, I'm going faster and quicker. I'm smiling more. They just feel better. I feel more beautiful. Yeah. Wow. You know what I mean? I just feel great. And like you half sort of touched on that sort of, you know,

perimenopause, all that sort of stuff. Since that book came out, where I was hidden away inside of sport, that book comes out and there's been all sorts of knocking on my doors from surgeons, doctors. I think that sort of, that world of menopause and it's like, wow. And there's the medication side which drives some women nuts. But actually, what they loved was this

multi-phasic polyphasic approach to their recovery so they actually so it's all right yes you can just do like a couple of cycles through to two o'clock and then be awake yes go and make some lunch or make some sandwiches or do something and then get another couple of cycles that crp in the afternoon all right and you don't have to sleep at the same time as your husband

Maybe I'll sleep in a separate room. Why not? Because the husband, he wants to go to bed at 10 o'clock. Well, you don't. You're awake. Because you've shifted. So it's kind of giving them the power to adopt a recovery approach.

that was relevant to their world, they find themselves in that time. Not just following our code of this and that. Well, maybe let's dive into some of the more practical examples that our podcast listener might have asked. One of the things is about, because I've done a lot of research about this term called CBTI, right? It's like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. All right.

there are things about so when you can't sleep you also mentioned in your example right one of the things is that when you can't sleep laying bad maybe you should not try to associate you know not able to sleep with bed that you should you know get out of bed is that is that something that you find consistent with your coaching experience or how do you i guess how do you fall back inside of everybody's profile they might have a part they might not

Some might have some kids. Some might be living in a city. Some might be living out in the countryside. There's a number of little variables around that individual. But in principle, once you start thinking about...

I've got my anchor reset point, mine's 6.30. I've got 16 90-minute cycles. That means I've got cycle seven for a CRP. And then cycle 12 is my start of my sleep cycles. I've got five 90-minute cycles from 11 o'clock into 6.30. The first two cycles is where I'm likely to get my deep sleep. And then the other cycles are moving me towards that sort of wake point. So once I sort of get that, I can really start to focus my attention. Yep.

If I happen to wake up, I will always look at the clock because I'm not quite sure whether it's time to get up. So I will look at the clock. It's normally two or three o'clock in the morning for most of us. Now, when you look at polyphasic sleeping, that's quite a natural time to wake if you're in a multi-phasic way. So if you do wake up, maybe you've got a bit of that restorative deep sleep and you're in a bit of a light sleep and you kicked out and you feel quite awake. Wait for the next cycle.

So get up, don't over stimulate yourself, but you know, just get up.

Let the sleep onset and grab a couple of cycles and you're fine So get up meaning that they should in between cycles if they couldn't sleep they should get up and actually not Okay, that's a practical thing Yeah, it's not like you sort of half asleep, but yeah, you're sort of lying there thinking always to go back to sleep What's happening is you feel?

You feel awake. Yeah. And you go, right, right. Internal fight. Should I sleep or should I not? Well, let's not start having a shower and a cup of coffee. Yeah. No, no, no, no. But if you stay, you know, you could watch a nice film, maybe.

Or a documentary. You could listen to some music. You could maybe make some nice fresh lunch for tomorrow, you know, or from the fridge. Just do something. It's a bit freaky. Show up in the middle of the night in the kitchen to make a set which works well. What happens is, what you're saying is, it happens once. Yeah. And you go, it's fine. Okay. Right? I'm just going to go and sit in the lounge and read a book. Yeah. And then go, oh, I can feel it coming back. Yeah.

But it doesn't come back like quickly. It will come back. Easy. Into bed, get two more 90-minute cycles, wake up at their normal time and go, well, that was all right. Yeah. So they start to do it on a regular basis. And all you do is use that, what you know about, it's a dangerous word called sleep restriction.

Oh yeah, that's scary. It's like sleep hygiene. Oh, I need to be nice and fresh and clean. It's like, don't worry. But they can just go, all you do is we'll just change your behaviour a little bit in the evening. Yeah. And we'll shift from 11 o'clock and move it to 12.30, which is a cycle on. So we're happy because it's part of a plan, not just random. And we'll do that for a couple of nights and it'll just reset it and we'll go back to 11. Mm.

So I'm happy. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very interesting. About two years ago, this exact same day, March the 17th, we did record on our 21st episode 21. We did talk about sleep. And one of the things we did talk about, the concept is called the orthosomnia. Orthosomnia. Orthosomnia. I thought that's such an interesting concept because...

You want to be good at sleeping, but you over track it so that you get so much that you get so anxious that you couldn't sleep. So I think that's a concept that's good to be aware of. We've got so much...

so many years and so much knowledge and research about hydrating, about nutrition and about exercising, right? We're at it all the time, developing things and checking it and researching it and back, right? And then suddenly what happens is not that long ago, we go from just fitting sleeping at the end of the day

We've got no education. Parents aren't talking to the kids. The teachers and everybody are not talking to the kids. Even the doctors know very little about it. The surgeons, everybody in the medical, it's all like, well, get your eight hours, don't eat too late, get your 16 to 18 degrees and happy days. And get a consistent sleep time and a consistent wait time. Right. Right.

I'm going to ignore that. So it's kind of, suddenly then you go, oh, I only got 10% REM sleep. I slept for 7.25 hours and my tracker says I should not go to work today or take it easy. I need to take it easy today. But I'm meeting Susie at the gym at 3pm.

I'm meeting my mum for lunch. I'm going to have a meeting. I've got an exam. I've got to take the kids to school. I don't even know that. It's because whatever the data says to you,

when you reflect on it, you're going to ignore it because you've still got to go and get it done. So it kind of creates that sort of mindset of it's interesting and it's a guide. And we don't want to sort of put it to one side because it's interesting. You do have to reflect all the variables, all the influences. There's nothing perfect about anything.

And you need to build a lot of knowledge of what you're doing through the seasons, when you're on holiday, when you're with your friends, when you're sleeping with somebody or not sleeping with somebody, when you've got maybe an illness. And all these factors you have to put together and go, well, this is what's likely to happen when these factors are in play. So don't worry about it. It's likely to be four out of 10 and about 3% REM sleep. That's what's probably going to happen. Don't worry about it.

So that is wonderful. They came up with a name for it straight away, didn't they? Yeah. Anxieties created by... Yeah, I think that's something, you know, we want to track how we're our performance, but we don't want to be, you know, locked in or being, you know, just overwhelmed by it at the same time. So finding the right balance is very important.

So okay, change of topic. I'm very interested in jet lags because in your book you did talk about jet lags, naps, and some of the maybe cover a bit about sleep medication as well, just in your observation. So what's the best practice to get over a jet lag? No idea. No idea? There's so many ways that people...

find their own way because they travel a lot. If you don't travel a lot, probably the consequences of that's just going to hit you like we've done things like following the food clock. So you always keep, you know, eating breakfast, even if it's nighttime or light therapy tools is always a good one to try and reset your inner clock because you've shifted through a time zone. The basic principle is

You just need to give yourself your brain your body just a little bit of time and it will reset naturally You can't just go through time zones for fun and expect not to have some reaction to it and I think that's why the sort of the technique of sort of thinking polyphasically is you know that trips coming and

So you start to think about your recovery more multi-phasically. So you can start to think about shifting that before you even get on the plane. You know what time scale you're going to. So you can almost start using light to sort of go, it's actually five o'clock today, not three o'clock in the morning. And you can start to move along that route. And then while you're flying, you can move along that route. When you get there, you can start. And when you come back, definitely east and west and west and east.

it's going to hit me going back home to the UK from China. More than when you come over? Yeah. No idea. No idea, okay. No idea. Okay. I think every piece of meat is kind of really difficult to understand that with a lot of people. Some people react to these things and not. I think maybe we'll find out some better answers soon. Yeah, there are some papers related to this that we can...

I think for me, just personal experience, right? I do fly to a lot of countries and I always find it a bit harder for me to adjust, you know, for a shorter time zone difference than a longer time zone difference. Like from the US to China, I found it easier. Right. Even though it's, you know, 16 hours. But from UK to China, I found it harder. Right. This is a bit awkward time to adjust. Yeah.

So yeah, I'm usually pretty good at sleeping in the plane. I think especially this one trip, it took me a while to adjust. I did find some research that

for this short time, you know, jet lag especially, it's not chronic, you can, you know, melatonin could be helpful, but not used chronically, right? I see in your book you don't advise people to, you know, chronically use medications, right? Is that something you want to talk about on that topic? It's just...

You know, there's things developing all the time. I think, you know, one minute nobody's talking about melatonin and everybody is and then there's supplements and this and they start off on 10 milligrams and end up with loads of fluid. I think it's like a lot of the things that sort of creep into the sleep world, isolated, sometimes intrusive interventions. It's just trying to solve the poor approach or trying to put it right in some way. So I always sort of suggest is that

we can bring in certain interventions once we've got a really natural approach in place. So once we've got that in place and we've got those 16 cycles, we're doing little nice natural things, we've got a nice balance of inside-outside exposure to light and that blue light energy wave and we've got that diminished light and if we are using blackout to create darkness, we need light to wake us up. If we get that in place and now we're comfortable we've got an approach,

then maybe we can use melatonin maybe we can use some blue blockers particularly when we move into the sun just to protect ourselves to overexpose you to like maybe we can use that yeah not without a reasonable approach and a defined approach to you every day because otherwise they're going to come in and probably create other problems and if you don't know that you're melatonin deficient

Be careful. If you're not, if you're stuck in an office all day long under those types of light, which is really diminished, you know, measure it in lux, it could be just a few hundred lux at best. By that window, it could be many thousands. Outside, it could be 80,000 lux. If you're not getting any sort of balanced approach to your light exposure during the day, then poppy melatonin supplements is sort of like, it doesn't,

It can work for certain people, but then they become addicted to it and they can't sleep without taking it. So I basically go, I'd rather not do anything until we've got a very natural approach. Because if you feel you need that, then there's probably an answer of why you think you should do that. It's because you're not doing that.

Yeah, so I guess the takeaway for people is that first go with, you know, some of the stress release approaches and also try to set the right expectations with their cycles rather than hours. And also, you know, play around with the lights, the natural lights, and also do not force yourself to sleep when you can't. Absolutely. And I think that's why it was sort of like all this

sort of very specific tips from the science and the neuroscience. You can read lots of books by lots of professional people and they give you all of this science about sleep. But actually inside of somebody's world you've got sports people who are disabled, people with all sorts of things going on in their world. And so sometimes

the rather need for certain interventions to help them with their process. The same thing applies to them all is get something natural working and if we feel we need to add something to it, we do it as a good informed decision. I was doing an interview yesterday and it was talking about how young people, particularly in China, are awake at 3 o'clock in the morning ordering medications.

to help them with their health. Okay, wow. So sleep up trying to be healthy, trying to learn how to be healthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the worst time to be doing anything. There's a term called the revenge bedtime procrastination, you know? That's kind of... I mean, it's also true for our audience, right? Because our main audience is midlife women, right? So we were trying to see... Of course, for a woman going through...

and menopause, you are, besides just the physical symptoms and all these chronic disease risks, there are also all sorts of life issues, right? So with the various relationship or work, right? Being senior executives and also...

you know just with societal stress as well right so all of those uh right before you go to sleep it start to feel like oh i can finally take some time for myself and then the approach is to scroll down social media which i think is easy to say but it's hard to do right i'm sure you've seen a lot of this what are some of the good practices to kind of get rid of these

I mean, if at all, of the revenge, bedtime procrastination, right? I think it's, you know, sometimes it's just starting that little journey. You know, this is what I want them to do. Well, I'm not going to tell them to do it, but I'll take them on a little journey and they'll end up there. And one of those things is, as you know, is if I just grab a hold of your hand and take you outside and sit on that bench,

when we just take 10 minutes suddenly very quickly kind of life's not as bad as it seems if we go for a walk in the woods if we go you know if we go out when we go camping and into the mountains and by lakes and things like that you very quickly sort of were able to put things in context so what you bring into somebody's world

is that you are creating that space, you are doing these little things that help that process and they end to put everything in context as you're going through your day. So those little tiny moments when you might just

grab that little moment for yourself. What that's doing is helping when you get towards that point there. And if you do sort of shift somebody, but I like to try and go to bed at 10:30 and get my nine hours and that's not working. And so if we just shift that say to 12:30, which sounds late, but not everybody's asleep. It's just part of 24 hours. It creates a bit of space and we create that bit of space for you. And so let's do all the normal things

Don't stop getting on your text, stop scrolling, you know, you've got to be in bed by ten. Create that little bit of space and then say, at least do something else with that moment in time that's positive. Make some great food for lunch tomorrow, do that, do that. But just take the pressure off. When you start doing that, hopefully they start to feel a little bit more proactive about it.

So, just a couple of questions from the podcast listener, right? One is asking, I dream every night. Does that mean my sleep quality is poor? What can I do about it? Because I remember your book also mentioned some certain environments like temperature, all those. I wonder from those factors, you know, she can do some self-analysis on the

which is besides the mad side because we talk a lot about the stress release right yeah i'm not really a dream expert uh what i do know is it it normally happens with certain stages of sleep so yeah it kind of indicates that you're in those deeper sleep stages which is not a bad thing when you're the dreams you said my experience with my dreams sometimes they're completely random probably sometimes i dream and i don't remember anything

And sometimes I just wake up and think, well, that's a good idea. You know what I mean?

I think as long as it doesn't turn into sort of night terrors and scary and waking up feeling really scared and everything else, as long as it's sort of wandering along that route, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Okay. Another question. My father dreams, snores, and says he wasn't asleep. What's happening? It is what? What was that question again? It says my father dreams, snores, and says...

he wasn't asleep what's happening i think it's a sleep apnea issue basically talking about yeah you know a lot of a lot of people who snore if you just shove them onto their side it normally opens up the airways and makes it a little bit better maybe they've got pillows that are too thick and darker and anti-snoring maybe the matches are too hard maybe they're mouth breathers all day long instead of nose breathers so training them to be nose breathers

Tai Chi or breathing things to be nose breathers because that helps when you're going to sleep and most people when they ever identify when you've been in clinics and they identify with well I wasn't asleep they normally are they just don't recognize it you know even light sleep is a sleep I remember there was one thing that I thought was interesting in your book you did talk about you should sleep on the side that's

Not the site that you normally use? Is that something like that you want to talk about? It's only because you sort of, you know, my own experience of sleeping and everything else, and most people would end up on what would be classed as an orthopedic firm type mattress because they kind of think like that. Yeah.

But in the sport, what we're trying to do is get a complete physical balance so they recover posturally okay. We don't want any sort of pressures on joints and muscles.

I also became aware of, you know, if we were sleeping outside like we used to, I'd probably find somewhere reasonably safe by a rock or under a tree. I'd probably curl up in a fetal position, protecting my heart and my genitals. And I'd probably do that on the opposite side to my dominant side. The reason for that is this is less sensitive and this side can protect me. Ah, okay, so you free that side. So I go, oh, so the brain likes that. Also know that

You know, if you're on your front, because there's something too hard underneath, you like the floor, you'll go on your front in a free fall position, you'll turn your head sideways, try to get rid of the pillow, so your neck's twisted, things like that. So you'll move to your back, and the pillow you had when you were on the side is now under your head, pushing the head up, locking the... And then you move out of that position. So...

That sort of fetal position on the opposite side to your lumbar side, it just seems to be a really natural... If you watch children, they just curl up like

Yeah beds and in cots if you so on your back you seem to be like you're exposed even under your doobies and blankets you so you wouldn't sleep flat on your back if you're outside So I think all those sort of indications from humans are how they slept so and it makes a lot of sense we we basically get a

layers so it's not soft. It's like a pair of trainers on your feet. They're really comfortable, support your body weight and you can wear them all day. You've got materials where you can release into it with a natural body shape like that. So no pillow, beautifully balanced like that, spine aligned and just lying like that. You can go through those cycles with less disturbance, not having to move around so much.

So that's why that one seems to work. So it's kind of like it's a good indication if you can lie on the surface in a fetal position on the opposite side to your dominant side and release into your mattress surface and don't feel you need a pillow. You've probably got a surface. Don't need you. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Yeah. So probably last question I'll pick from the podcast listeners is what's the best way to recover from a bad night's sleep? A bad night's sleep? Yeah.

Maybe some nap for 20. Forget? It's kind of like one of those things, you know. You did what you did yesterday and the day before and you go into sleep state and it's just not worked out. So you wake up and it's like, wow. So maybe you didn't get into those deep sleep stages. I think the more you become aware of all the little factors in play, you just go...

well i should have known that was coming because you know i had a glass of wine i actually i did this i didn't get my napkin in the afternoon i couldn't do that so it's kind of all that process so i knew that was coming but if you if it just happens and you just go wow what's that

Then all it does is just carry on with your normal process. I mean my R90 technique process. So you just get lots of light, hydrate up, balance, bang, do a little thing every cycle, stand by a window, do that, get to the next bit, put your little CRP in, thank you very much.

And you'll probably just reset and it'll be fine. Just something happened out of your control. So don't, the worst thing you want to do is start to worry about it and think it's going to happen again. Yeah, but I think it's easy to say, right? But hard to do. So people want to do something, you know, like want to say, okay, I can take some actions. At least I can,

Yeah, it's easy to tell so just don't think about it, but you know, that's the elephant in the room you will think about it They will because normally Somebody who asked that question? Yeah, because they've got no definitive approach to their 24 hours exactly they're fitting sleeping just at the end of it and so It's sort of like well if you start doing something about it Yeah, when that happens if you're doing something about it, you won't be worried about it But you will be worried about it

Yeah. If you haven't got an approach to it. So if someone who you're a coach for, let's say I ask a question and you're my coach, sleep coach, besides telling me just not worry about it, are there anything else you would tell me? It's a difficult question to answer because on the one hand, if you've got somebody who's got no approach to this and just fits it in the end of the day, then these things are going to happen. So you can't just go, well, take that or do that and it'll solve it. Like go to bed early or...

Grab a nap in the afternoon. If they don't normally, right? But once somebody's got that, I do have a CRP every day, or at least five out of seven days. I do all of these little micro moments. I have a consistent start to my day, right?

Because that's my sunlight so I keep my light in place I do that and I'm already shifting between five cycles or four cycles depending on what's going on in my world So I'm doing this anyway, right? And if I wake up in the middle of the night, I do that. Yeah, I get up and do this So they're already doing that. So if every now and again it doesn't work, I just don't worry about they just crack on because they already set itself but if it just happens on its own and

can you stop that happening? Not really because you drink too much beer, you drink too much alcohol, you don't exercise enough, you're not eating the right foods. You're lying next to your husband who snores like mad. You know what I mean? Your bedroom's too hot, your duvet's too warm, your pillow's wrong. There's too many things out of place to even think about trying to reset it. You've just got to get on with it. I guess if I may, I think I kind of get your point where...

besides not worrying about it you can kind of go through the checklist and see how you make the next day better right and and try to assess your routine so any time can be a good start for you to you know embrace a good sleep or at least get get to that routine bit by bit yeah

and try to assess. If you just look at it like that and say to somebody, right, okay, if you have a bad night's sleep and you haven't refreshed, what can you do? Right. Yeah. Set yourself an ARP, a consistent day, chop your day up into 16, 90 minute cycles, start to think about little tiny things in every cycle throughout your day and

Think about how many times in a week could you grab 20 minutes? Oh, I'm at work and I'm in the office. 20 minutes of nap, by the way. That's the nap time. 20 minutes, 30 minutes in that space. And you say, well, I can take you places where you'll see people just, they do it everywhere around you. This is like, there's no excuse. Because once you start getting it in, once that rhythm starts to happen, you just go, I don't need to worry. If it doesn't go perfectly that night,

I didn't wake up as refreshed as I normally do because my objective is it happens more often than not. Yeah, so you think in a longer spectrum and you know, do not get stuck in that one data point basically. Our ideal would be five 90 minute cycles, that's 35 cycles in seven days. We've got seven of these little CRPs. We've got that one. So that would be our ideal. But when we're looking ahead, things are going to change.

But we're also optimizing. So sometimes it just looks a bit different. Yeah. But not 20. Right. And you're not like, well, let's go for more than 35. Well, why? Hmm.

because we know you're over-training. So you still go, let's look at this week. Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. Well, that's going to be like 30 cycles. That's all, right? So that's how the coaches were able to look at their schedules with the athletes and look at it and go, we're pushing too far. Well, thank you, Nick. It was really helpful. I think my biggest takeaway is that I did sense a lot of your coaching work were being...

you know being able to be close to your coachee and we don't say client but your coachee and really understand a broader uh you know besides the techniques right really understand broader sense of what they are facing in life and to create these kind of

stress release mechanisms in a personal way and also create this comfort for them to embrace a better sleep or even test out certain things that may or may not work for them. So yeah, very thankful for this conversation. It's a good way to put it across. Any other feedback or thoughts from this conversation that you might... I would just advise anybody to be very

cautious about diving into the myriad of isolated interventions that's coming their way. Like what? Like what were you most worried about?

eye masks with this in it with ai tech in it with that and some do this some do that they all claim to be the helmet or something you've got this you've got vr helmets you've got that you've got that you've got beats and sounds and this and yeah noise things everything can supplement yeah beyond belief yeah and take this supplement at night and you'll sleep really well and all this stuff all right okay is all i would say to everybody is is just get

Just raise your awareness about sleep in the sense of the key little factors that are in play. And they're probably not what you think when somebody says, you know, how can I sleep better? Yeah. And it is...

It is as simple, like you said before, is I don't walk into somebody's life as I'm going to help them sleep better and do certain things that help them sleep their eight hours better with better quality and better REM sleep. Well, we don't do that. What we do is we start that little journey of making them aware that they need an average of about 10,000

lux light exposure in the first couple of phases of the day if they spend too much time sat there and not there and there then it gets all imbalanced and what they become is they've got a brain their friend and they need to help that brain throughout every 24 hours to be able to when they want to go it'll go off and it's able to do its job for you

if you push it here there and everywhere and you're not conscious of these things you can't expect it to do it it'll just keep adapting and modifying and it's a brilliant organ that's all it'll keep doing so just step back wherever you get your information from obviously that book is one of them it's just a starting point to just make you aware that you've actually got this

Little thing called a chronotype knocking around and the more you like you said straight away. Well, there's no point You know asking you to do certain things in certain phases that you will do it and you will push through it Yeah, but ideally you'd rather do that then

And when you suddenly start realizing that if you can factor some of that into your week, so it's not always fighting There are some bits now as you keep doing these things suddenly you start shifting your behavior around and you become Amazing you think wow

i've stopped taking those things starting by knowing yourself knowing your type and then you know go through that i really like the example when you said the smell the you know what comfort make a certain person comfortable and all those factors alter absolutely yeah so you can prescribe your own you've got many sort of things today but we used to get hold of the phone when that came yeah

and got the athletes to record them reading bedtime stories to their children in their bedroom. So in the bedroom it's nice and dark, just the night light on, there's probably some little twinkling of music in the background, the kids are sitting there listening like mad and asking questions and they're reading a story.

Put that on there, so when they were halfway around the world at a major event, in a hotel room, almost a minute, how do they switch off? And they'd just pop that, listen to that, and it would shift them. So it's that mindfulness, it's that shift. So it's kind of like, you were saying to me, that if I just...

Stop for two or three minutes and just looked out that window. Yeah, I'm just looking at that distracted I tell you what, she says yeah because if I look at something that's chaotic all my brain is doing is processing that so it's chaotic It's madness. It's pressure. It's anxiety But if I just do that I'm just giving it a chance and the more I do that the more I'll benefit from it so it's kind of

I can't sleep in the office, I can't curl up on the floor, I can't do that. Well, I tell you what, I've been into organisations, there's everybody sat at their desks, all there like that, beaving away like that, headphones on probably, beaving away at their desks and they're all working like that. I went in, did some work with them, six months later you go back, they all look exactly the same. They're still there at the desks, doing this and doing that. However,

Half of them, there isn't. There is something on the screen, but it's a picture of the outside world. Okay, well at least a weird... There is something going through their headphones. So they are sat there, but they are just taking their 26 minutes without having to go into sleep hard or go over there. And some of them, if you look closely...

I'm just kind of slightly knocked off. Do you know what I mean? I've just been able to let go. And because everybody's aware of this, you know? Yeah, I think we also have a podcast listener told us, like, because I have a co-host, like, her voice is a little bit...

calmer I guess and we also have people saying okay just listening to the podcast we can fall asleep we don't know if it's like good or bad thing you know absolutely it's true yeah it's just that little trigger to switch up yeah and feel comfort I guess safe in a way and instead of like well

And then you start off with, you know, the office has got all the windows down this side, so all the daylight's coming in to these desks. On the other side of the room, the light's much lower, but it seems bright. So you find out who's got a morning-type chrono, who's dragged themselves into work on coffees. The other ones have been up and been to the gym and all full of beans. So you just go, we'll get some lamps on the other side of the office.

to give them the same level of life as the people who sit up or why don't you swap or why don't you hop desk and you move over there and it's so i think that comes down to a well a broader question of the social construct right like maybe and how is that you know specifically more designed for early birds than night owls a lot of ways right definitely so

It's one of the questions I've been raising a lot. I'm not saying that all the people I coach or people who read my book have all been successful at what they're doing. But the thing is, over the last 10 years or so, the heightened awareness about sleep, there's so many more books, there's so many more people talking about sleep, there's so much...

more stuff about sleep and how important it is and everything else. So it's become this big subject, right? However, it's not really having the impact we would like. So there's still a lot of mental health and well-being issues. There's still a lot of these issues. We see the growing things in all sorts of... I think we've just created more of a fear factor around it.

Because we say it's so important, you know, if you don't do it, right, you're gonna get Alzheimer's you're gonna get this you know, right if you don't do that, you know that if you don't get your eight hours, you're gonna get sick a lot of fear die and it's like oh my god, well, no, we just want to find a way a simple way of going into that health

Trying to bring some things out of it so we get it right more often than not. Just get that better and then that will help the other areas of our life. And when we get the other areas of life, that will help that. So it's kind of like, don't get too panicky about, you know, because it's, you know, if you work multi shifts and shifts like parents do, but your occupation is shift work, frontline workers.

Five days this, three days that. This is the nature of our world. So it's kind of like, I have to sleep during the day. Well, that's what I have to do. This is like what we're born with, I guess. Sometimes we need to take all sorts of tools and science and analysis to get back to what we were born for, I guess. So it's only because, you know, as soon as you go, well,

You must sleep well in it because you're in an elite sport sleep. It's a performance you have to have. I don't even think about sleep. I'm sleeping. I have cycles. I have this. I don't worry about it. I fit things in. Sometimes I'm not doing this. I'm not doing that. And it's a really good way to sort of start to, and it will build and build and build and build. So, you know, don't, the last thing you want to do is try to get too serious about it. Get stress about it.

I just bought this new mattress, cost me thousands of pounds and it's supposed to give me a perfect night's sleep. It's never going to do that. Yeah, that alone is never because you've got to have a holistic mind. You've got sold something with bad information because it can't. It just sits there like that. It's you that gets on it. Exactly, you've got to be part of it. Yeah, but I spent lots of money on it. So what? I coach people

to sleep anywhere anytime on anything anywhere anytime yeah because if i've got a professional mountain climber who's going up that mountain and they get stuck there for a few extra days because of the weather and they're hanging off the side of a cliff you know sleep on a cliff how do they do that we'll adopt this multi-phasing approach before they go and do it

You know, it's all those sort of things where you go, yeah, well, I can... That's what you're supposed to be able to do. Yeah, so this book, I remember, so it was written in 2014. I was asked to write it, which is rare by a publisher. Okay. But they contacted me about 2014. We...

went through a bit of a process and started in 2015 so it was published in 2016. 2016 and then this one is republished 2020? Yes the Chinese population seemed to really resonate with the book so they did another five year contract which was quite unusual but yeah it's still there's lots of other books around and everything else but yeah we did talk about Matt Walker's

I mean it's an amazing science you know but you sort of and that's why I was kind of like wandering around all of that a couple of decades ago and going wow it is really important this is but can you tell me how to do it and I'm like

Well, not really. Just make sure you do it. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, exactly. You need some practical tools, right? So that's really why I went, okay, well, I need to try and find some way. Yeah.

Getting people closer towards all the benefits that they can get from sleep But the last thing you want to do is not be able to give that advice to somebody who's about to have a child in nine months and say well you know Or somebody's working night shifts You can't do that you have to give them something so they can try and get the benefits from it Yeah, but even there, you know with the things that around them not just blanket, you know

I hope you will get your rooms tonight 16 to 18 degrees otherwise you're not going to sleep well what are you training coaches yes you are so you have to train literally every time I'm not in a sort of business sense but every organization I go into every athlete or coaching I work with and we've got systems in set up in Japan at the moment where we are training young coaches to go out and coach other people

but it's all basically along those lines. Pretty much, you know, I think you went through the whole book. You don't need a coach, do you? You know what to do. It's sort of like you get a really good idea. The only bit where I sort of come in is just being able to wander around and

spot a few little things and say, Oh, let's do that. Yeah, really? So it's kind of, that's where I come in with the elite athletes, but in general terms, when somebody's got just a bit, I do think being a coach is more than just a knowledge, right? You have to like yourself, right? Obviously, you're very observant, right? You have to build certain relationship with the

coachee in an easy way so it requires a lot of qualities and talents and plus the tools right so the right training so it's not it's not that simple to be you i guess in that so yeah because this is a there's a lot going on you know i was a

an international sales marketing director quite young so the people you come across ceos and other types of businesses is kind of like a relationship understanding about what they're might be doing in the world i'm i was married for a long time we've got kids i've got grandkids now so there's that whole experience there i used to be a professional golfer so i know i know what what it takes to sort of practice and train yourself and be disciplined and motivated to get something to happen

So there's kind of a lot of experience, a lot of sort of counselling goes on, there's a lot of sort of... Do you have multiple coaches for yourself? No? I think that's what you're saying, it's sort of...

you know, all the sort of skill sets that come together through experience and all sorts of stuff and what you learn, what you do, you bring that all together into some place. So somebody doesn't feel like, you know, they're just, it's just somebody specifically talking about that. We sort of go on a little journey together, you know, and ultimately, you know, ultimately end up going, just don't worry about sleeping. Yeah. The best way to...

Fixed lips, not worry about sleep.