Amjad Masad: The Cults of Silicon Valley, Woke AI, and Tech Billionaires Turning to Trump
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Welcome the sucker rose and show us to become pretty clear that the mainstream media are dying. You can't die quickly enough. There a reason they die.

They lie, lied so much that killed them. We're not that talk across to me with the most honest content, the most honest interviews we can without fear or favor. Here's the latest IT does sound like you're like directly connected to AI development. Yes, you're part of the ecosystem, yes.

And we benefit a lot from when I started happening like he was almost a surprise, a lot of people, but we saw a coming .

and you saw A I coming.

so I coming, yeah. So you know, this recent A I wave, you know, it's surprised a lot of people and chat G, P. Came out november twenty two was lost their mind, like, suddenly computer can talk to .

me and I was like the .

into IT at all gram, my closet friends and set of allies and mentors, a big little valley figure. Ah he's a writer kind of like you uh you know he writes a lot of essays and he hates IT he thinks is like a mid dwd right and and is just like making people write worse, making people think worse.

S or not think at all .

right now .

as the iphone is done, as wikipedia, google i've done yes.

we were just talking about that the um you know the iphone, ipad, whatever they met IT so that anyone can use a computer. But the also vate is so that no one has to learn to program. The original al vision of computing was that this is, uh, is something going to give a super powers, right? J, C, look lighter.

The head of a darpa, while the internet was developing the, uh, S, A called the men machines in bioscience, he talked about how computers can be an extension of of of ourselves. I can can help us grow. We we can become, you know, there's this marriage between the type of intellect that computers can do, which is high speed arithmetic, whatever, and the type of interests that humans can do is more intuition.

yes. Um but you know since then I think the the uh sort of consensus has sort of changed around computing, which is i'm sure we will get into that, which is why people afraid of a eyes kind of replacing us this idea of like computers and computing our threat because uh, they're directly competitive with with humans, which is not really the to believe. I hold the extensions of us and I think people learning to program, and this is really embedded at the heart of our mission at report, is what gives you superpowers.

Whereas you're just tapping, you're kind of a consumer. You're not a producer of software and I want more people to be producers of software. Uh there's a book by dog, uh huh uh not hoff rush gov, dog rush gov.

Called program or be programmed and if if you're not the one coding, someone is calling you, someone is programing you. These algorithms on social media, they're programing us, right? So too late for me .

to learn to code though I don't think so. I don't think so. I can baLance my chat book assuming there are still checkbook I don't think through.

But you just go back to something you said a minute ago um that the idea was originally as conceded by the dark guys who made this all possible, that machines would do the math, humans would do the intuition. I wonder, as machines become more embedded in every moment of our lives, if intuition isn't dying or people are less willing to trust theirs. I've seen that a lot in the last few years, or something very obvious, what happened.

And people like, well, I could sort of acknowledge in the bay what my eyes tell me in my instincts, screaming at me, you know, the data tel me something different, like my advantages. I am like, very close to the animal kingdom and I just believe in smell. So but I I wonder if that's not a result of the advanced technology.

Well, I don't think it's inherent to the advanced technology. I think it's it's a cultural thing, right? It's how to end this vision of computing as a replacement for humans versus an extension machine for for humans. And so you go back, you a bertin Russell, uh A A book about the history, philosophy and history of mathematics and like you know going back to the ancient and a pytheos and and all these things you could tell in the writing, he was almost surprised by how much intuition played into science and math. And you know, in the of ancient era, of a advancements in logic and philosophy and all of that, whether I think the culture today is like, well, you gotto check your intuition at the door, yes yeah your bias, your intuition racist or something, and you have to do this is bad um and you have to be this like in a blank slate and like you trust the data. But by the way, data you can make the data say a lot of different notes.

We can ask you totally off topic question just to get me, how are you this well, edge? I mean, so you grew up in Jordan, speaking arabic. C A display, palestinian family.

You didn't come to the us until pretty recently. You're not a native english speaker. How are you reading virtual Russell? yes. And how like what was your education is everyone in is every palestinian family in Jordan educated?

What like a passi an A D aspera is like pretty well educated. And you starting see this generation, our generation of kind of who grew up are starting to um sort become more prominent. I mean, so can valley, you know a lot of c sweet and B P level executives, a lot of them are passing in or a lot of them wouldn't say, oh, there's still bias scribe ation .

all say they are.

They will say they called adam. And of them, some of the is especially kind of blend, but there is a lot of them over.

But how did you so how do you wind up reading, assume red britton ruin english? How did you learn that you didn't grow up an english speaking country?

Yeah well, Jordan is kind of an english speak right. So so was a bridge. I think one of like happened like fifties or something like that ah maybe sixties.

So he was like pretty late in the unbound sh um sort of empires history that Jordan stopping colonies. So there was a lot a lot of british influence I went to. So my father, my father is a government engineer.

He did didn't have a lot of money, so we'd lived very modest life. Kind of like middle lower middle class. Uh but he really Carried about education.

He sent us to private schools. And in those private schools we, uh, uh, we learned kind of using british diploma, right? So I G C S E L levels you that familiar with, yes. So so, uh, your part of the is a british, uh, you know Chloes m whatever is like, you know education system became a national, uh I I don't think is is a good thing.

British schools everywhere yeah bridge .

schools everywhere and is a good education system. IT gives students a good level of freedom and autonomy to pick the of things they're interested in. So I went to a lot of math and physics and also did did like random things.

I did child development, which I still remember. And now that I have kids, I actually use. And in high school, you do that. And high school and I I what then have to .

with the civil race movement. That's the only topic in american schools really yeah yeah you spend is learning with the civil etes moment so everyone can identify .

the other in peace bridge but no one .

knows anything else up doubt um that's so interesting so when you when do you come the U. S.

Try to top and .

now you've got a billion dog companies. pretty. I an amErica .

is amazing. I just love this country, given us a lot of opportunities. Just left the people, like everyday people, like just talking to people I was just talking to to my driver. He was like, i'm so embarrassed I I didn't know who that calls and was so that's why I live here yeah, I was like, well, good for you. I think that means you're like you're just living your life and like my kids and my chicken s and my that's .

great means you're happy.

happy.

But so I started arted with city, please, referring to all these works are like you're not even from here. It's incredible. Uh, so IT back to ai and into this question of intuition.

You don't think that it's in it's inherent. So in other words, if my life is to something can governed by technology, by my phone, by my computer, by all the technology Better didn't like every electronic object. You don't think that makes me trust machines more than my own gut.

Um you can choose to. And I think a lot of people are being guided to to do that. Um but ultimately you're giving away a lot of uh, freedom and and you know there a is not just missing that there's like a huge tradition of hackers and computer scientists that uh kind of started uh ringing alarm bell like really long time ago about like the way things were trending, which is more sensualizing less you know diversity of competition in the market ah and you have like one global social tork I supposed to many now is actually getting a little Better but um and you have a lot of these people you know start know the cyp to movement. I know you are the bitcoin conference and you told them C I A going got really .

angry I I don't know that didn't tell you can tell me who he was. I have some questions.

I should have a, have a feeling about whose that was, but doesn't separate.

No, which just stop right now because I can't. I'll never forget me to ask you again who is the topic.

There's a guy. His name is polar u by the way.

for those watching you on the is the the shooter name that we use for the person who created bitcoin.

but don't know is amazing. That is the thing that was created. We don't know who created he. He never move the money.

I don't think maybe there were some activity here and there, but there's like billions hundreds of billions of dollars locked in. So we know the person is there are not cashing out. It's like pretty .

crazy story, right? amazing. So polar uru .

yeah Paula u um was um uh you know crypto hacker in uh rodesia um and before simba I and he created something called encysted for the masses em four and was one of the early by the way I thinks note and use m four as part of his as part of his hack so he was one of the people that really you know made IT to that autographed is accessible and more people. However he did, he did become a criminal. He became a criminal master mind in manila.

He was really controlling the the city almost, you know, he paid off all the cops and everything he was making so much money for. So from so much criminal activity, his nick game was sleepy with an l and so there's like a lot of you know circumstantial evidence that through evidence, but I just have a feeling that he generated so much cash, he didn't know what to do with IT. We're to store at and on the side, he was building bitcoin to be able to store all that all that cash.

And around the same time that a totally dispute, he went to jail. He got he got booked for um for all the crime. Did he recently got sentence to twenty twenty five years a person I think your Jason like what would you do if you if you would go out and he's like, I would build an asic trip to mind bitcoin um and is a look this is uh, strong opinion, loosely held. But just like .

there's so he is current .

imprisoned in prison in in this .

country .

or the full pins, I think this country does he was doing all the crime here. We're selling drugs online .

and um we should go see him in jail yeah to .

check out the story.

Sorry, I just had to get that out of you so I keep digressing. Uh so you see A I and you know your party A I ecosystem of course but um you don't see IT as a threat.

No no, I don't see as a threat all and I think I heard some of i'm excited yeah I am the basis of very little information .

actually actually tell me what is your .

theory about the thread of you know what I always .

I want to be the kinds man who would meet up front his limitations and insignificance um and on this topic i'm legitimately ignorant but I have read a lot about IT and I read most of the enormous stuff about IT. And the idea is, as you well know, that the machines become so powerful that they achieve a kind of autonomy and they, though designed to serve you, wind up ruling you.

Yeah and you know i'm i'm really interested in uh ted kissing keys writing his two books that he wrote obviously as to say totally opposed to letter bombs or violence of any kind um but take inky had a lot of provocative and thoughtful things to say about technology is almost like having live in help which you know people make a lot of money. The old one have live in help. But the truth that live in help is, you know there they're deserve you but you wind up serving them in inverts.

And A I is kind of species of that. That's the fear. And I don't want to live. I want to be a slave to a machine any more than A R D. M. So this kind of that simple, then there's all other know a lot more about this and I in that world. But yeah, that's my concern as .

actually a quite valid concern. I would like d couple the extension al threat concern from the concern. And and we've been talking about this of like machine, like us being slaves to the machines.

Es, and I I think that kids and skies a critique of technologies, actually one of the best. Yes, thank you. Yeah.

I I wish he hadn't killed people because against ling, but I also think IT had the opposite of the intended effect. He did IT in order to bring attention to his to his theses, and ended up observing IT. Yeah but I I I really wish that every person amErica would read, but not just that his manifesto, but the book that wrote from prison because they're just so at at the least they're thought provoking and really important yeah yeah.

I mean, briefly will get to the essential risk in a second. But he talked about this thing called the power process, which is he thinks that is intrinsic to human happiness, to to struggle for survival, to go through life as a child, as an adult, build up yourself, get married, have kids, and then become the elder and then die, right? And he he thinks that modern technology of disrupts this process and makes people miserable.

I do you know that I read IT. I am very curious, like I read a lot of things, and I just don't have mental censorship in a way like I can love. I'm really here.

I'll read anything you think being from another country has helped you in that way.

Yeah and and I also I think just my childhood um I was like always different. I I when I had hair I was red, I was bright red this half of my red head and um and you know because of that experience I was like, okay, i'm different. I'm comfortable being different. I'll be, i'll be different.

And a and you know that this commitment to not worrying about anything you about conforming or like IT was forced on me that i'm not conforming just by first of these different and being curious, being you know um good with computers and all that um I think that Carried me through your life. I just I like I get, you know, I get like almost a discussed reaction to conform. M and like mob mentality.

I had a some more experience. I totally, we ve traveled to an awful lot of countries on the show, to some free countries that windle number, and a lot of not very free countries, places famous for government censorship. And wherever we go, we use a virtual private network of VPN, and we use express svp.

We do IT to access the free and open internet. But the energy thing is, when we come back here to the next states, we still use express VPN. Why big tech surveilLance is everywhere is not just north korea that monitors every move its citizens make.

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So kosinski, this is that struggle is not only inherent to the condition but in an essential .

part .

of your evolution is a man or as a person um and the technology disrupts that I mean.

that seems right to me. Yeah I actually struggle to sort of dispute that ah despite being a technologist, right. Ultimately, uh, again, like as that is like one of the best creating, I think we can spend the whole podcast and really trying to teasing apart I think ultimately where I kind of prefer.

And again, IT just goes back to a lot of we're talking about my fuse. And technology as an extension of us is like we just don't want technology to be A A thing that's just merely replacing us. We wanted to be an empowers thing.

And what we do at rapid is we empower people to learn the code, to build startups, to build companies, to become entrepreneurs and um and I think you can um in this world you have to create the power process. You have to struggle and uh yes you can yes this is why I am also you know, a lot of technologists talk about U, B, I, any verse again, I think it's all wrong because this just goes against human nature. Thank you. So so I think wanna .

kill everybody, put them on the door. Yes.

yes. So you know, I don't think technology is inherently at odds with the power process. I believe IT of that. And we can go to to to .

essential threat. Yes, of course I agressive. Can we buy interview people for.

We are general night was about four hundred different threads. So that's what's what's out there. I know um i'm sort of convinced of that. My only make sense uh to me and i'm kind of threat oriented anyway.

So people with my kind of personality year, like always looking for you know the big bad thing that's coming, the astro of the nuclear war, the A I slavery um but I know some pretty smart people who very smart people who are much closer to the heart of A I development who also have these concerns um and I think a lot of the public shares these concerns yeah in the last thing i'll say before soliciting you review of a much Better informed view of IT is that there's been surprisingly and telling ly little conversation about the upside of A I. So instead, it's like this is happening and if we don't do a channel, will that may I think, is probably true. But like why should I be sad about IT? Like what's the upside for me, right?

Do you don't mean Normally when some new technology or or huge change comes the people who we're profiting from like, you know, it's going to be great. It's going to be great. You're not going to ever have to do x again.

Sw, you're closed in a machine. Impress a button theyll be cleaned. Yes, i'm not hearing .

any of that about IT as a very suit observation. exactly. Tell you why to tell you why it's like a little bit of a long story because I think there is a organized effort to scare people about a eye.

Organized organized yes. And so this this starts with a mAiling list in the nineties is a trans humanist mAiling list uh called uh dex tropic. And these extroverts, they might get a extropy or something like that, but they um they believe in the singularity.

So the singularity is a moment of time where are you know is progressing so fast or technology genre progressing so fast that you can't predict what happens. It's self evolving and you just all Better off. You know, we're entering a new world where you just can't predict IT, where technology can be controlled.

Technology can be controlled, can remake. We make everything and and those people believe that a good thing because the world now sucks so much and we are you know we are imperfect and unethical and all source of irrational whatever and so they really wanted to um for the singular order to happen. And there's this Young guy on this a list as named L A cosa e and he claims he can write this A I and he would write like really long essays about how to build this ai.

Uh, suspiciously, he never really publish code, and it's all just prose about how he's going to be able to build the eye and he's able to to fundraise. They started the thing called the singular ati institute. A lot of people excited about the future, kind of investing in a tea most famously. And he spent a few years trying to build N A. I again never published code, never published I me like real progress um and then came out of IT saying that not only you can build A I but if you build IT will kill everyone so he kind of switched from being this optimists you know singularity is great to like actually A I will for short kill everyone and um and then he was like, okay, the reason I made this mistake is because I was irrational and the way to get people understand that the eyes gona kill everyone is to make them rational so he started blog called less wrong and less wrong is like walks you through steps to becoming more rational look at your biases, examine yourself you are sit down mediated on the all the rational decisions you made and try to correct them um and then they start this thing called center for advanced rationality or something like that see far and they are giving seminars about rationality but the tech minor about .

rational what like um i'd never .

been to one but my guess would be if they would talk about the bias, whatever but they have also like weird things where they have this almost struggle session like thing called debugging. A lot of people rote block posts about how that was demeaning and IT cost psychosis. And some people, twenty seventeen, in that community, that was like collective psychosis. A lot of people were not going crazy. And is all .

rain about IT on the end bugging? So that would be like kind of your classic code technique. You to trip yourself there ah is very common.

yes. Yeah, it's a constant inculding. Is that what you're describing?

Yeah I mean, that's what I read on these accounts. Yeah they sit down and they will like all of your mind and tell you where you're wrong and and all um and and IT IT caused people used to stress on Young guys all the time, like talk about how going into that community has caused. Here's the stress.

And they were like offshoots of this community where there were suicides, there were murders, there were a lot of really dark and deep shit. And the other thing is like, they can't teach you about rationality. They recruit you A I risk because of a rational, you know, you're a group or all rational.

Now we learn the artifice tional ality, and we agree that the eyes gonna tell everyone, therefore, everyone outside of this group is wrong, and we have to protect him. A I is going to kill everyone. But but I also, they believe other things, like they believe that, you know, a player is is rational and and everyone .

that holy emery yeah .

like like you can have sex with mutio partners essentially .

what they think that I mean I think it's um it's certainly a natural desire if you're a man to sleep with more and different women for sure but it's rain the sense how like you've never met a happy poli as long term not .

a single once .

I might be self serving .

to recruit more impressionable people into a .

and their hot girlfriends yes right.

So so .

that's rational.

Yeah supposedly. And so now they convince each other all these you cough like behavior. And the crazy thing is like this group ends up being super influential, uh, because, you know, create a lot of people that are incident.

I and the A I labs and the people who are starting these companies were reading all the of so elan a, you know, famously read a lot of nick boston. I have a Jason figure to the rational community. He was part of original mAiling this. I think he would call himself a rational part of the rational a community. But he wrote a book about the eye and how a eyes is going to kill everyone.

Essentially I think he modeled his views more recently but originally he was one of the people that are of being in the alarm um and you know the foundation of opening eye was based on on a lot of these fears like elon had fears of a hyle ling everyone uh he was afraid that google was going to do that and so they are group of people. I don't think everyone had opening. I really believe that.

But do you some of the original founding story was that and they were recruiting from that community is so much so when, uh sam altman got fired recently, he was fired by someone from that community, um someone who started with effective altruism, which is another offshoot from that community really. And the A I labs are intermarried a lot of ways with this, with this community. And so IT IT ends up if they kind of you know borrows a lot of their talking points. But by the way, a lot of these companies are great companies now and I think they're cleaning up house.

But there is I mean, it's all just use the terminate sounds like a cold to me. Yeah mean, that has the hallMarks of IT in your description. And can we push al deeper on what they believe you say they are trans humanists. yes.

What is that? I think I think they just unsatisfied with with human nature, unsatisfied with the current ways um we're constructed um and that are irrational, we're unethical uh and so they start they long for the world where we can become more rational, more ethical by transforming ourselves either a by merging with A I via chips or or what have you changing our bodies um and like fixing fundamental issues that they perceive with humans via modification, tions and merging with machines.

It's just so interesting because um and so shallow and silly um like a lot of those people I have known are not that smart actually because the best things I mean reason is important and we should receive you given us by garden it's really important in being irrational is bad on the other hand, the best things about people, their best impulses are not rational.

I think there is no .

rational justification for giving something you need to another person. Yes, we're spending in the and of time helping someone for loving someone, and those are all rational. Now banging someone's a girlfriend, guess that's really but that kind of the lowest impulse .

that we have wait to hear about effect of altorf m so they think are natural impulses that you just talked about, or indeed irrational. And there's a guy h no spute singer of philosopher from australia.

the infanticide guy. Yes, see so ethical for killing children?

Yeah, I mean, so their philosophy is utian and that you can calculate effects yeah and you can start, apply IT and you get into really, really we are territory like you know if um there's all these problems, all these thought experiments, you know you you have no two people at the hospital uh requiring some organs of another third person that came in for a regular chock up you uh or they will die your ethically um uh you you're supposed to kill that guy, get his organ and and put IT into into the other two and so IT gets I don't think people believe that per say I mean but they but but there are so many um problems with that there's another belief that they .

have you can I say that belief or that conclusion grows out of the corp. Leaf which is that you're god like a Normal person realizes sure IT would help more people if I kill that person and gave us organs to you know a number of people like that's a math question yeah for you, but i'm not allowed to do that because I didn't create life。 I don't have the power.

I'm not allowed to make decisions like that. Yes, because i'm just a silly human being who can see the future and is not a nited because i'm not god. Yeah I feel like all of these conclusions stem from the misconception that people are god.

Yes, I that sound right. No, I agree. I mean a lot of the um yeah I I think it's .

you know there .

ed route fundament unsatisfied with humans and maybe perhaps hate hate the humans what are deeply I think that such a i've never .

heard anyone say that um as well that they're disappointed with human nature that disappoint with human condition. They disappear with people's flaws.

And I feel like that see I mean on one level, of course, I mean, you know we should be Better and but that we used to call that judgment, which we're not allowed to do, by the way um that is super judges actually what they are saying is, you know, you suck and it's just a short hop from there too. You should be killed I think. I mean, that's a total lack of love.

Where is a Normal person? A loving person says, you kind of suck. I'd kind of suck too. Yes, but I love you anyway, and you love me anyway. I'm grateful for your love.

Right, right, right. Well, they'll say you suck, join our rational community, have sex with so but can I just .

clarify， are these these aren't just like, you know, support staff at these companies like other?

So know you've heard about S, B, F and f. They had was called a political, yeah, right? They're all having six for each other given now .

I just want to be super cand shallow, but given some of the people they were having sex with, that was not rational. No, so first we do that.

Come on. Yeah, that's true. yes. Well, so you know, you know it's IT.

What's what's even more disturbing? There's you. Another ethical component to their philosophy called long term ism. And this this comes from the effective altruists set of branch of of rationality m long termism. And so what they think is in the future, if we did the, if we made the right steps, there is can be a trillion humans, trillion minds, they might not be humans, might be A I, but be trillion minds who can experience utility, can experience good things, fun things, whatever.

If you are you to leti an you have to you put a lot of weight on IT and maybe you'll discount that sort of like discounted cash flows um but you still you know have to post that. You know you know, if if their trillions, perhaps many more people in the future, you need to value that very highly. Even if you just want a lot IT ends up being value very highly.

So a lot of these communities in up all focusing on A I safety because they think that A I because rational, they arrived and we can talk about their arguments in a second. They arrived at the conclusion that I was going to kill everyone. Therefore, effective ultras and rational community, all these branches, they are all kind of focused on A I safety because, uh, that's the most important thing because we want a trillion people in the future to be great. But you know, when you are signing sort of value, a that high is sort of a form of past gales wager IT is um sort of, uh, you can justify anything, including terrace m, including a doing really bad things if you really convinced that I is gona kill everyone um and the future holds so much value, a more value than any living human today has value, you might justify really doing anything and and to built into that is a dangerous framework.

but it's the same framework of every genocide movement yes, from, you know, at least the french revolution to present, yes, of a glorious future justifies a bloody present, yes. And look, even not accusing them of genocidal intent, by the way, I don't know them, but I, but those ideas lead very quickly to the camps. I are just .

talking about gently. I like to talk about ideas, but if they were just like a silly berkeley called to whatever and didn't have any real impact in the world, I wouldn't care about them. But what's happening is that they were able to convince A A lot of billionaires of these ideas.

I think elon maybe changes mind, but at some point who was convenient these ideas, uh, I don't know if he gave them money. There was a story at some point the waster john, that he was thinking about IT but um a lot of other million ears give the money and now they're organized and they're dc lobbying for A I regulation theh. They're behind the air regulation in california um and actually profiting from that.

Uh there was a story in A I wears where they are the main sponsor A D HDR ics behind S B one zero four seven um started a company at the same time that certifies the safety of A I and as part of the bill, he says that you have to get certified by third party. So there's aspect of IT that are um kind of let's less profit from IT. By the way, it's all allegedly based on this article. I I don't know for sure. Uh I think senator Scott t uh, winner was trying to do the right thing with the bill, but he was listening to a lot of these called members, let's call them and um and and they're very well organize and uh also a lot of them still have connections that the big eyes labs and um some of them work there and they would want to create, you know, a situation where there's no competition in A I regulatory capture per say I am not saying are like the direct motivations. All of them are true believer s but you know, you might you you might kind of inflated this group I have directed in a way that benefits this corporations.

Yeah, well, i'm from D. C. So i've seen a lot of instances where you know my bank account lines with my beliefs.

Thank haven. Yeah, just going to happen once up that way. It's funny. Um climate is the perfect example.

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I wonder, like about the core assumption, which i've had up until right now, that these machines are capable of thinking, yeah, yeah. Is that true?

So let's go this through their chain of reason. I think the fact that it's uh, it's a stupid called like thing, a actually account does not automatically mean that their arguments are are ong .

uh I think IT does you .

you do have to kind of discount some of the arguments because because IT comes from crazy people. But the argued the chain of reasoning is that um humans are general intelligence, have these things called brains. Brains are computers.

They're based on purely physical phenomenon that we know their computing. And if you agree that humans are uh, computing and h therefore we can build a journal intelligence in the machine. And if you agree up till this point, if you if you're able to build a join in the machine, even if only at human level, then you can create a billion copies of IT.

And then IT becomes a lot more powerful than any one of us. And because is a lot more powerful than any one of us IT would want to control us or IT would want, IT would not care about us because it's such it's more powerful, kind of like we don't care about ants. We will step on ants, no problem. Because these machines are so powerful, they are not care about us. And I I sort of get off the train at the first chain of of reasoning but every one of those steps I have problems with um the first step is, uh the mind is a computer and you're based on of what and the idea is, oh well if you don't believe that the windows, the computer then you're believe in some kind of spiritual thing well you know uh you have to convince me you haven't presented an argument but but but the idea that like .

speaking of rational but this is what reason looks like right um .

the the idea that we have a complete description of the universe anyway is wrong right? Are we don't have a universal physics. We have physics of the small things, we physics of the big things.

We can really coherent them or combine them. So just the idea that you being a material sort of incoherent because we don't have a complete description of the world. That's one thing. That's an argument. No.

no no no. It's it's a very interesting argument. So you're saying as someone, I mean, you are sign you're effective a scientist. Um you you just state for viewers you don't follow this stuff like the limits of our knowledge .

of physics yes. So you know we have essentially two conflicting series of physics. These systems can't be kind of married.

They're not a universal system. You can do them both at the same time. Well.

that suggest A A profound limit to our understanding. Yeah, what's happening around us in the natural world?

Yes, IT does. And I think that this is, again another air of the rational types is that just assume that, you know, we were so much more advance our science actually so .

sounds like they don't know that much about science. yes. Okay thank you. Thank you for i'm sorry.

ask you to yeah that's not even the micros my argument uh there is um a philosophers lash mathematicians, scientists. Wonderful name is, uh, sir Roger penrose.

I love how the bridge kind of give the sir title I want accomplished the uh he wrote the spoke called the imperance new mind and in the and it's it's based on you know the imperor new close the the idea you know the person of naked uh in his opinion the argument that the mind is a computer is this of consensus argument that is wrong the in is naked really a is an a that wrong in the way he proves that is very interesting um there is in mathematics there's a something called girdles in complete asteria。 And you know what that says is um there are statements that are true that can be proved in mathematics. So he constructs geral constructs like a number uh system where he can start to make seatless about the number system.

So the you know he creates a statement that like this statement is unprovable in system f where where the system is f the whole system well if you try to prove IT, then that then that save me becomes false. Uh, but you know it's true because it's unprovable in the system. And Roger paros says, you know because we have the knowledge that IT is true by looking at IT despite like we can prove IT I mean the whole feature of the sentence is that IT is unprovable um therefore our knowledge is outside of any formal system therefore yes the human brain is or like the our mind is understanding something ah that mathematics is not able to give give IT to us to describe, to describe ah. And I thought the first time I read IT IT read IT, a lot of these things is the famous.

you would tell me last night, i've never heard of the britain Russell self cancelling insertion.

Yeah, it's like this statement false. It's all the light. It's all the liar. paradox.

Explain why that's just, that's going to float my head forever.

Why is that a paradox? So this statement is false. If you, uh if you look at a statement, agree with that and then IT becomes true.

But if it's true, then it's not true, it's false. And you go through the circular thing and you never stop and a broke logic in a way yes. And virgin Russell spent his whole you know big part of his life writing his book, uh, principal mathematical.

And he wanted to really improve that mathematics is complete, consistent, uh deciders computable all of that. Um and then all these things happen girls and can please serum cheering the invention of the computer. Actually this the most ironic piece of science sister that nobody ever talks about.

But, uh, cheering invented the computer to show its limitation. So I invented the cheering machine, which is the ideal representation of a computer that we have today. All computers are cheering machines. And he showed that, um uh, this machine, uh if you give IT a set of instructions, IT can tell whether those set of instructions will ever stop, will run and stop oh, will complete to a stop, or will continue running forever, is called the halting problem and this makes this proof that mathematics have uh undecided ability is not fully decided, able or computable so all of these things were happening as he was writing the book and you know IT was IT was really depressing for him because he he kind of went out to prove that in your mathematics is completed all that um and um this caused kind of a major panic uh at the time between mathematicians and all that is like, oh my god, like our systems are not complete .

so IT sounds like the deeper you go into science and they are honest. You are about what you discover, the more questions you have yeah, which kind of gets you back to where you should be in the first place, which is in a posture of humility. yes.

And yet I C. Science used certainly in the political sphere, mean they are all dumb people. So it's like, who cares? Actually, come on, hair is selected about science.

I don't here IT. But so also so smart people, I believe the science the assumption behind that demand is that is complete and it's noble and we know IT. And if you're ignoring IT, then you're ignorant, wilfully or otherwise.

right? Well, I my view of science is a method. Ultimately, it's a method anyone can apply.

Its its democratic. It's decentralized. Anyone can apply that method, including people who are not trained.

But in order to practice the method, you have to come from a position of humility. I don't know that's using this method to find out and I cannot lie about what I observe.

right? That's right. And and today you you know capital s science is used control and is to uh proper and eyes and a you .

know in the hands of, you know just really people should know about just dumb people with, you know pretty ugly agendas. But but we're talking about the world that you live in, which is like unusually smart people who do the stuff for living and are really trying to advances the ball in science. And I think what you're saying is that some of them knowingly, you're not just don't appreciate how little .

they know yeah and and you know they go through this chain of reasoning for this argument and you know none of those are a minimum um you know complete uh and like you know they don't they just take IT for grand. If you even doubt that the mind is is a computer, you you know i'm sure a lot of people will come a herrick and call me h you know all source of names because it's just dogma .

that the mind is a computer.

that the mind is computer is dogma and log I um yes, well.

I mean the let me count the ways the mind is different from a computer first. Did you're not assure of a faithful representation of the past? Memories change for time, right? In a way that's misleading, who knows why but that is a fact right that you not true of computers that's right to think yeah um but how how are we explaining things like intuition yeah in instinct those are not feel well, that is actually my question. Could those ever be features of a machine?

You could argue that a neural networks are set of intuition machines and that's what a lot of people save a but in your al networks you know and maybe I I will describe them um just for the audience uh newer networks are inspired by the brain um and the idea is that you can connect a network of small little functions, just mathematical functions, and you can train IT by giving the examples.

I could give you a picture of a cat and if it's yes, you know i'll say this network has say yes if it's a cat, know if it's not a cat. So give you a picture of a cat and then the answer is no, then it's wrong. You are just the weights based on the difference between the picture and the answer.

And he do this, I don't know, billion times and then the network encodes features about the cat uh and this is little exactly how new networks work is is you tune these small parameters until there is some embedded um feature detection of your specially in classifiers right um and this is not intuition. This is uh basically uh automatic programme, the way I see right course. If we can write code manually, uh you can go on website right code uh but we can generate algorithms um automatically be a machine learning.

Machine learning essentially discover these algorithms and sometimes discoveries like very crappy algorithms uh for example, like you know you know all the pictures that we gave IT of a cat. Had a grassy m so IT would learn that grass equals at the color Green equals t yes. And then you give IT one day a picture of a cat without grass and IT tails are like, what happened? All turns out IT learned the wrong thing. So uh because it's obsequious, what is actually learning people interpret as as intuition uh because it's not uh, the algorithms are not uh, it's explicated and there is a lot of work now on trying to explicate these algorithms is great work companies like anthropic. Um but you know I I don't think you can call IT in tuition just because it's obscured.

So what is how is intuition different? Human intuition.

We don't for one we don't require a trillion examples of cat to learn a cat.

Good good point.

Um you you know a kid can learn uh language with very little examples. Right now when we are training these large language models like ChatGPT, you have to give you the entire internet for a to learn language and that's not really how humans work. And the way we learn is like we uh combine in tuition and some more explicit way of of learning um and I don't think we figure out how to do IT with machines just yet.

Do you think that structurally is possible for machines together?

so. So so you know this chain of reasoning um I said I can go through every point and and arguments to the country at least like present doubt but no one is really kind of trying to deal those doubts um and uh and um my view is that i'm not holding these doubts you know uh very, very strongly but my view is that we just don't have a complete understanding of the mind and you can you at least can use IT uh to argue that a kind of machine that acts like a humid but much more powerful can kill us all.

But you know, do I think that machine ah you know A I can get really powerful? Yes, I think A I can get really powerful, can get really useful. I think functionally can feel like it's general. A I is ultimately a function of data, the kind of data that we put into IT, it's the functionality is based on the data, so we can get very little functionality outside of that. Actually, we don't get any functionality outside of been proven that these machines are just the function of their data.

some total of what you put .

in exactly gargarin. yes. Uh, the cool thing about them is they can mix and match difference functionalities. That they learn from the data as he looks a little IT more general.

But let's say we collected all data of the world, we collected everything that we care about, and we somehow fitted into machine. And now everyone one's building these really large data centers. You will get a very highly capable machine that would kind of look general because we collected a lot of economically useful data, and we will start doing economically useful tasks.

And from our perspective, IT will start to look generals, i'll call IT functionally A G. I. I don't doubt we're sort of had IT in some direction like that, but but we haven't figured out how these machines can actually generalize and can learn and can use things like intuition for when they see something fundamentally new outside of their data distribution, they can actually react to IT correctly and learn IT efficiently. We don't have the science for that.

So because we don't have the understanding of the ah on the most fundamental level, you began that explanation by saying we don't really understand the human brain and so like how can we compared to something we don't even really .

know what IT is and there are couples there a side there is a machine learning scientists slay. I don't know how to pronounce uh french names but I think that his name um he he took A A sort of an I Q like test you where you're rotating shapes and whatever and um and entrepreneur put a million dollars um for anyone who is able to solve that using A I and all the modern aise that we think are super powerful, couldn't do something that like a ten year old kid could do.

And IT showed that again, those machines are just functions of the data, the one you throw, a problem that's novel at them. They really are not able to do IT. Now I get I am not fundamental kind of the fact that they will get there, but just the reality of where we are today.

You can't argue that we're just gonna put more computer and more data into this and suddenly IT becomes god and kills us all because because that's the argument. And there, you know, going to D, C. And the going to all these places spring up regulation.

This regulation is gna hurt. Make american industry, it's gonna. Urt startups is going to make IT hard to compete. It's going to give china tremendous uh uh advantage uh and it's gona really hurt us based on these flood arguments that do not actually batting with these real questions.

That sounds like they are not in. And what gives me, paul, is not um so much the technology is the way that the people creating the technology understand people so I think the wise, incorrect way to understand people is as not self created beings. People did not create themselves.

People cannot create life as beings created by some higher power who at their core have some kind of impossible to describe Spark a holy mystery. And for that reason, they cannot be enslaved or killed by other human beings. That's wrong.

There is right and wrong. That is wrong. What to graze on grey area because they're not self created yeah right. Um I think that all humane action flows from that belief and that the most inhumane actions in history flow from the opposite belief, which is people are just objects that cannon should be improved and I have full power over them like that's a real that's a totalitarian an mindset and it's the one thing that connects every genocide movement is that belief so if IT seems to me as an outsider that the people creating this technology have that .

belief and and you didn't even have to be spiritual to have that belief, look, I um we .

certainly tainted don't yeah I think it's actually a rational conclusion.

I'll give you an interesting antidote again from science we've had brains for a half a billion. If you believe in evolution of that, we have had brains for half a billion years, right um and we've had kind of a human um like species uh for you know you know half a million you perhaps more about about a million years. There's a moment in time, forty thousand years ago, it's called a greatly f forward where we see culture, we see religion, we see drawings, we see we are like very little of that before that tools ever and suddenly we're seeing this, this cambridge, an explosion of culture, right?

And winning is something larger than just like daily needs are the world around them.

But yeah, and it's not if we're not was still not able to to to explain IT David, read this book. So I think who you are, where we came from and that he talks about, uh, trying to look for that genetic mutation that happened that potentially create this explosion. And they do they have some idea of what IT could be in some candidates, but they they don't really have that right now. But you have to ask a question like what happened thirty or forty thousand years ago, right?

Where it's a clear, I mean, it's disputable, that the people who lived during that period, we're suddenly grappling with metaphysics. Yes, the worship of things.

this a clear separation between between, again, the animal brain and and the human brain, uh, and is clearly not competition that was like, grow computer rain is is something else happened? But what's so interesting .

is like the instinct of modern man is to look for something inside the person that caused that, whether I think very natural and more correct instinct to to look for something outside of man that caused that. I'm open to both yeah I mean, I don't know the answer and I do know the answer, but not just pretend I don't but t at very least both are possible. So if like you can find yourself to looking for a genetic mutation or change change, then you know you're sort of closing out that's not an in a scientific way of looking at things actually you don't for close any possibility science you can't interest .

yeah uh that's very interesting. Uh so you know um I I think that uh these machines i'm betting my business that on A I getting Better and Better and Better and it's going to uh make IT all a Better, but it's going to make IT all more educated OK.

So okay now now is the time for you to tell me why I should be excited about something I bitter earing.

Yeah so um um this technology, large language models where we kind of fed uh uh a neural network. The entire internet and IT has capabilities mostly around writing, around, uh information, look up around a summer zone, around coding a does a lot of really useful thing and you can program IT to get to pick and match between these different skills. You can program these skills using code.

Um and so the kind of products and services that you can build with us um are amazing. So one one of the things are most excited about this application of the technology. Um there's this problem called the blooms two sigma problem. Uh there's this uh you know uh scientists that was education. And um he was looking at different interventions to try to get you know kids to learn Better, faster or have just Better educational outcomes.

And he found something kind of bad, which is there's only one thing you can do to move kids not in a marginal way, but in two standard deviations from the norm, like in a big way, like a Better than ninety eight percent of the other kids um by doing one of one two dering using a type of learning called mr learning. One of one cheering is the is the key formula there. That's great.

I mean, we discovered the solution to education. We can up level everyone, all humans and earth. The problems is like we don't have enough your teachers to do one of one.

Touring is very expensive. No country in the world can afford that. So now we have these machines that can talk, they can teach that can um they can present information, uh that you can interact with that in a very human way.

You can talk to, you can talk to you back, right? And we can build A A I applications to teach people one of one. And you can you can have IT. You can serve seven billion people with that. And and we can everyone can get smarter.

I'm totally for that. I mean, that was the promise. The internet didn't happen. So I hope this was going to say this for last. But I can control myself. So I just know being from dc that when the people in charge seeing your technology, the first thing they think of is like, how can I use this to kill people? Um so what are the military applications potentially of this technology?

That's one of the other thing that I I sort of very scapa al of this lobbying effort to get government um to regulate IT because like I think the bigelow offender would be of abuse of the china logy public government yeah think you know I watched your interview with the jeffrey hacks um who is like a columbia professor very very mainstream um and I think he's got a sign to like a land um ut of study of coffee, the origins whatever and he he arrived at very at the time introdux view that I was created in a lab and I was created by U S.

Government um and and and and so you know the government is supposed to protect us from these things and now they're talking about pandemic readiness and whatever will talk about talk about a how do we watch what the governments doing? How do we actually have democratic processes to ensure that you you are the one of using these technologies? Because they're going to regulated, they're going to make IT so that every day people are not even able to use these things and then they're going to have free rain on how to you .

know how to abuse things.

just like with scription, right? Scription one that's right.

But theyve been doing that for decades. Yes, if we get privacy, but you are not allowed IT because we don't trust you by using your money and the moral authority that you gave us to lead you, we're going to hide from you everything we're doing and nothing you can do about that. I mean, that's the state of amErica right now. yeah. So how would they use a ee to further express us?

I I E can use in also of way, like autonomous ones ones A A lot worse. You can uh, you know there's a video and they are not well like that. You know, chinese guard was and so you can have robotic set of dogs with shooting guns a little size I like you can him is a dog lover that's so offensive .

to me that is kind .

of offensive yeah.

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There was this huge expose in this magazine called nights seven two about how is reliably using um A I to targets uh suspects but ended up killing huge numbers of civilians. It's called the lavendar a very interesting peace.

Um so the technology wound up killing people who were not even targeted. Yes, pretty dark. Um what .

about violence? I think this recent uh A I um boom, I think you could be used for services. I am not sure if IT gives IT special advantage.

I think the they can get the advantage by again, of these lobbying groups are successful part there, you know their ideal outcome is to is to make sure that no one is training large image models. And to do that, you would need to insert uh, surveilLance apps at the compute level. And um and so perhaps that's very dangerous.

Our computers would like spy on us and sure we're not training a eyes. Um I I think you know the kind of A I that's really good at surveilLance, this kind of the vision ai I was china sort of perfected. So that's been around for a while now. You know i'm sure there's ways to abuse them models for for surveilLance, but I can think .

of that right now. What about manufacturing?

Um IT would help with manufacturing right now. People are feeling out how to do um ah I invest in a couple of companies that uh how to apply this technology foundation models to robotics. Um it's still early science, but you might have uh huge advancements and robotics, uh, if we are able to apply this technology. So the whole .

point of technology is to replace human labor, physical and mental. I think I mean, historically, that's what you know. The team engine replaced the ARM. It's set set.

So if this is as transformative as IT appears to be, you're going to a have a lot of idle people and that I think the concern that LED a lot your friends and colleagues to support ubi universe basic income like there's nothing for these people to do. So we just got a pain to exist. You said you're posed to that. I'm addiitional opposed to that.

On the other hand, like what's the answer? Yeah so you know um there's there's two ways to look at that. We can look at the individuals that are losing their jobs, which is tough and hard.

I don't really have a good answer, but we can look at IT from a macro perspective. And when you look at IT from that perspective, for the most part, technology create more jobs over time. You know you know, before alarm clocks, we had this job called the knocker upper. You which could see your room. You pay was I come every day like ck.

the village bell. You and you .

know that job disappeared. But like we we had you know ten ten times more jobs in manufacturing or perhaps you know hundred or thousand more jobs in manufacturing. And so overall, I think the general trend is technology just create more jobs.

And so I will give you few examples how A I can create more jobs, actually can create more interesting jobs. And entrepreneurship is like a very american thing, right? It's it's like amErica is the interpretation country.

But actually new firm creation has been going down for a long time, at least one hundred years, just like been going down. Although we have all the excitement around startups or whatever, uh, silicon valley is the only place that are still producing startups like the rest of the country. There isn't as much start up a new firm creation, which is kind of sad because, again, the internet was supposed to be this, a great wealth creation engine that anyone has access to. But the way he turned out is like I was concerned .

this one geographic well, looks I mean, respect looks like a monopoly generated, actually yeah.

But again, IT doesn't have to be that way. And the way I think I would help is that I will give people the tools to start businesses because you have this easily programming machine that can help you with programing and will give you a few examples. We there is a teacher and denvers that you know, during of IT was little bored, went to our website.

We have a free course to to learn how to code and uh, he learned a bit of coding and uh, he used his knowledge as a teacher to build an application that helps teachers use A I to teach. And within a year he built a business that's worth tens of millions of dollars that bring in huge about of money. I think he he raised twenty million dollars, uh, and that's a teacher who learned how to code and created this massive business really quickly.

We have series of photographers doing millions of dollars in revenue. Uh, so IT just is, you know A I will decentralize access to the technology. There's a lot of ways in which your right technology tend to centralize, but there's a lot of ways that people kind of really look at in which technology Candy alizad.

well, was, I mean, that promise makes sense to me. I would just I certainly wanted to become a reality I we have a mutual friend who share my name is so smart and a good humane person um who this very way up into the subject and participate in the subject an he said to me, well one of the promises of ai is that IT will allow people to have virtual friends or mates that IT will feel will solve the loneliness problem. That is clearly a massive problem in the united states. And I felt like I don't want to say because I like him so much, but that seemed really bad to me.

We have the same intuition about about know what's what's dark in the stories .

an versus can he's a wonderful person but I I think I don't what saggy, but why I don't disagree, I don't argument, just an instinct but like people should be having sex with shines .

right that's right. Um like I I would go so far to say some of these applications are like a little unethical like the playing of lone man a with no with no opportunities for for made and um like you know I will make IT so that they were actually not motivated to go out and and they .

didn't get like porn.

And I think that's really bad. That's really bad for society. And so I think the application， look, you can apply apply the technology in a positive way or you can apply native way.

Know, I would love for this, you know, doom called if I said they were like trying to, you know, make IT that A I applied a little way we had a was h we're gna lobby. You're gonna sort go out and a you make IT make IT so that um a is is a positive technology and we all for that. And by the way, there are in history, there are no times where the culture self corrects, right? Think there's some self correction on porn that's happening right now. Um you uh fast food, right? I mean, you know just generally junk, you you know everyone is like whole food, food is like high status, like that there are you can go to and people are in and needing healthy and chemicals .

in the iron water. Another thing that was a very ec concern even ten years ago, was only the work is was Bobby Kennedy cared about that no one else did right now that's like a feature of Normal conversation.

Yes, everyone is worried about microplate sics and that s right .

ah which is I think of gentian concern. So what i'm not surprised that they are cult in silicon value. I don't think you named the only one. I think there are others that my sense and i'm not surprised because of course, every person is born with the intuitive knowledge that there's a power beyond himself.

That's why every single civilization has worried something and if you don't know that IT doesn't change, you just worship something even dumb or yeah but so my question knew is someone who lives and work there is what percent of the people were making decisions until the kind valley will say out loud, you know, not i'm a Christ, your muslims. But they like, i'm not, you know, there is a power bigger than me in the universe. Do people think that they.

For the most part now yeah like I think most I I do not see most people but like you know the vast majority of the discussions seem to be like more intellectual and he will just take for granted that everyone has like a secular, mostly secular point of view.

Well, I think that you that the truly brilliant conclusion is that we don't know a lot and we don't have a ton of power. That's something right. So like the actual intellectual will over time of these honest though.

this is the view of, like many scientists and many people who really went deep. I am, I don't know who said I to remember, but someone said, like the first sculp of science making an atheist, but at the bottom of the cup, uh, you'll find god waiting for you.

Matteh wrote a book about this, supposedly about covert, was not about cover, just cannot recommend IT, uh, more strongly. But the book is about the point you just made, which is the deeper you go into science, the more you see some sort of order reflected. That is not random at all. Yes, in a beauty exhibited in um in math even and the less you know and the more you're certain that this is but there there's a design here and that's not human or quote natural it's super natural. That's his conclusion and I A format but how many people do you know in your science world who think that.

Yeah, I can count on on on one hand. Bis, interesting. Yeah.

that concerns me because I feel like without that knowledge inevitable.

yeah. And and you know, a lot of these conclusions are from hubs like the fact that there are so many people that believe that A I is an eminent sentier threat. A lot of people believe that we're going to die, are all going to die. Next five years comes from that hubris.

How interesting. I never until I met you, I never thought of that. That actually, that is itself an expression of hubris. I never thought of that.

Yeah you can go negative with hubs. You can go positive. And I think the positive thing is, is good. Like I think elon is an emitted of that is just a self belief that you can like I fly rockets and build electric cars is good and may maybe in some cases is delusional, but like net will kind of put you in on a on a good path for for creation. I think you can go pathological if you, if you know, if you, for example, S, B, F. And again, his kind of part of those groups just sort of believed that he can do anything in service of his ethics, including seal. And to all of that.

yeah, I don't I never really understood well because I understood too well, I think but the the obvious observable fact that effective altruism with people to become shadier twenty other not Better yeah I mean is is such .

an iron and but I see if feel like it's in the name if you call yourself such grand ose thing, you typically horrible like the islamic state is neither islamic or state effective offers .

are neither actions this no, that's boys that wise. So I don't think to your earlier point that any large language model or machine could ever arrive at what you just said. The iron, because, like the deepest level of truth, is wrapped in irony always. And I know a machines don't get irony, right? No, I could.

Um and maybe I I mean I I don't think I don't take a strong of a stance as as you are like you know the capabilities of the machines, I do believe that you know if you represented.

I don't know. I mean, i'm asking, I really don't know.

They are capable. I think maybe they can't come up with really novel irony that is like really insightful for us. But if you put .

a lot of ida and they APP.

they are a machines machine imitating like, you know, the way large language models are trained is that you give them a corporation tax, and they hide different words, and they try to guess them, and then they are just the weight of those new watchers. And then eventually they get really good to guess, guessing what humans would say.

Well then okay. So you're just kind of making the point unavoidable. Like if if machines that you have said that makes sense or the some total of what's put into them, yeah then and that would include the personalities and biases of the people in the data.

And that's right. Then you want like the best people, the morally best, say the most humble people to be doing that. Sounds with the least humble people doing that.

yeah. I think some of them are humble. Like I wouldn't like I think some people work. I are really outstanding and and want to do the thing but there are a lot of people with with the wrong motivations coming at IT from fear and things I got.

I think this is the point I will make is that um you know free markets are are good because you're gna get all sorts of entrepreneurs with different motivations uh and and and I think what's what um what the terms the winner is not always the ethics of whatever, but it's the larger of culture like what what is the what kind of product is pulling out of you they're pulling the porn and the um you know chat bots, whatever first is, are pulling the education and the health care. And I think all the pots of things that will make our life Better. I think that's really on the on the large or culture I don't think we can regulate that with government or whatever. But if the culture creates demand for things, just makes us worse as humans, then there are entrepreneurs that will spring up and will serve.

This is truly right. And IT is IT skidding its tail at some point because, of course, you know, you you serve the basic human desires, and you create a culture that inspires those desires. In a great number of people, there was the more porn you have, the more point people want actually.

I wonder about to push back from existing industry from the guilt. So I give you the M A. For for example, you mention medical advances, that something that makes sense to me for diagnoses, which really is just a matter of sorting the data like what's most likely, that's right. And the machine can always do that more efficiently, more quickly than any hospital individual doctor so like and diagnosis like the biggest turtle yes. Um that's going like that's going to actually put people in a business, right? If I can just protect my symptoms into a machine and i'm getting a much higher likelihood of a correct diagnosis that I would be after three days the male clinic like who needs the male?

I actually have a conquer story about that. I've i've dealt with like chronic issue for couple years. Uh, I spent hundreds, thousands of dollars on on doctors out of pocket, get like world's experts in all hundreds of thousands .

of .

and they couldn't come up with the right diagnosis. And eventually IT took me like writing a little bit of software r to collect the data. What I but I ran A, I, I use the I, and he gave me a diagnosis.

They haven't looked at and I went to them. There was very sceptical of IT. And then we are the test. Turns out that was the right diagnosis. Incredible is amazing to change my life.

That's incredible. You be you had to write the .

software to get there a software.

So we're not that far from like having publicly available.

right? And by the way, I I think that anyone can write a little software right now at report. We are working on a way to generate most of the code for you is we have this program called one hundred days of code.

If you give IT twenty minutes, you know, do a little bit of coding every day and like three months, you'll be good enough quoter to build. Uh, you know, I start up. I mean, I eventually you'll get people working for you and your upscale and all that.

We all have enough skills. And in fact, you know, i'll put up a chAllenge out there. People listen to this if they go through this and they build something that they think could be a business, whatever unwilling to help them get IT out there promoted, will give them some credit and close whatever just you have. Tweet at me or something to mention this, this post .

your twitter .

emc de A M A S A D.

So but there are what of enchanted interest I an poison thing but i'm revealing my biases um but I mean you saw in action during covet where you know it's always a mixture of motives like I do think there are high motives mixed with low motives because that's how people are you know it's always A A book base of good, bad but um but to some extent the profit motive prevailed over a public health yes, that is, I think, fair to say and so they if they are willing to hurt people to keep the stock Price up, they I mean, what's the resistance you're onna get to allowing people to come to a more a accurate diagnosis with the machine for free?

Yeah so in in some sense, that's why I think open source A I people learning how to do some of the stuff themselves is is is probably good enough. A of course, if there's a company that's building the services, it's going to do Better. But just the fact that this AI exists and a lot of IT is open source, you can delete on your machine and use IT is enough to potentially help a lot of people.

By the way, you should always talk to your doctor. I talk to my doctor. I'm not giving people advice to to figure out all themselves, but I do think that, uh, it's already empowers so that that sort of step .

point for someone like me. I'm not gona talk to a doctor until he apologizes to my face for lying for four years because I have no respect for doctors at all. I have no respect for anybody who lies, period.

And i'm not taking life advice and particularly important life advice like about my health from someone who's a liar. I just not doing that because i'm not insane. I don't take a real test advice from how most people I don't take financial advice from people are going to jail for fruit. So like i'm sure there's a doctor at there who would apologize, uh but I have a met one yet. So for someone like me who's just i'm not going to a doctor, I uh this could be like a literally lifesaving right?

So um to the question of whether there's going to be a regulatory ory capture, I think that the the the I think that's why you see silicon valley ating into politics, you know so in valley and what was always sort of any politics, you know, when I was remember came twenty five. Ve was a early on in my time there was was the romney obama debate and I was his positive .

imagine a debate between romney and obama who agree on everything.

Yes, I I didn't see a lot of daylight and and people just making fun of romney。 So that was like he said something like a pinders for of women and kind that stuck with out whatever um and I remember asking everyone around me like who who are you with I was like, of course democrats, of course uh why isn't anyone here for republicans? Uh they're like they're dumb and only dumb people but republicans and and you know silicon value was this like one state town in a way? Uh, actually look, you know there's like data unlike donations by company for for state is like networks is nineteen nine percent to democrats and like one percent to uh, republicans. If you look up the you know diversity of parties in north korea, as I feel a little Better.

more choices that more honest media too but I I .

mean you see now a lot of people are surprised that a lot of people people on tacker going for republicans, for trump um and uh particularly mark rison and then harwich h put out uh to our podcast talking there are the .

biggest venture capital is in the states. I think I .

don't know what metric you would judge， but they are certainly on on the way to be the biggest, the most I think the best of her sure um and um and they put out A I didn't I should .

have watched I didn't yeah so .

they're reasoning for why they would vote for trump, by the way you know would have never done that and like twenty, eighteen or nine, whatever. And uh this vibe shift that's happening and .

how was IT received?

Uh, it's still it's still mixed, ed, but I think way Better than happened ten years ago been cancelled. No, take their money .

just watching. But in recent times, so big and so influential, they're considered smart and not at all crazy no that like that that's gotto change minds if in recent harrow's is doing yeah .

have certainly changed minds um a lot I think you know give people some curse to say I I for trump as well at minimum but I think IT does change and they put out the argument is um you know they put out this agenda called little tech know this big tech and they after lobbying and whatever, who's lobbing for little tack, like smaller companies, companies like hours, but much smaller too. Like one two percent companies and actually .

no one is your company would .

be considered little in so .

convolution but I want a little .

company right so um but yeah got like really you start that just started right like you know typically no one is protecting them sort of politically. No one is really thinking about IT and is very easy to disadvantage startups like you just talked about with health care regulation. I are very easier to create regular ture such that companies can't even get off the ground doing their thing.

Um and so they came up with the agenda that like we're gonna be the you know the firm that that's going to be looking at for for the little guy the little attack right which I think is brilliant and even part of the argument uh for trump is that you know uh the U A I for example like the the democrats really excited about regulating ai. A one of the most literal things that happened, I think, uh, camel Harris was invited to a safety conference and they were talking about existence al risk and he was like, well, someone being denied healthcare, that is sentiment for them, someone whatever that essential. So he interpreted essential risk as, like, any risk is essential.

And so that's just one animal. But like, I was like, I is a two letter word and you clearly don't understand IT very well and they are they're moving very fast regulating IT. They put out an executive order.

A lot of people think they kind of, I mean the the twigs they've done so far from a user perspective to keep IT safe, really like just making sure hate White people.

like it's .

about pushing a destroy an to tell italian social agenda, racist social agenda, the country like is that gna be embedded in that permanently?

Um I think it's a function of the culture rather than the regulation. So I think uh, the culture was sort of this world culture um in america, certainly valley. And now that the vibe shift is happening, I think I think a microsoft just fired their D A I T. microsoft. Yeah I mean, that is a huge vive.

They are going to learn to code.

Do my something perhaps 哈 um so uh you know the you know I won't pink this on the government just had but it's very no I spent democratic .

members of congress I know for effective lied pressure to the labs like no you can IT has to reflect our value yeah .

I and I get I was George washington .

know a picture of dance are washington you know that it's already changing .

is what i'm saying。 It's already a lot of these things are being reversed. It's not perfect, but it's already changing. And that, I think, is the function of the larger culture lure change. I think elan buying twitter, uh is uh in letting people talk and debate, moved the culture like I think a more moderate place. I think he's gone a little more um you know a little further, but like I think that he was net positive on the culture because IT was so far left a IT was so far left inside these companies the way they were designing their products such that the George washington look like there's like a black George washington have you ah that's just insane, right?

I was like I was in and free out. I don't want to hear. I don't comport with my you desires, but I don't want to be lied to.

George washington was not black. Now the a with so if you're me, um you're my enemy, right? I think so. I mean.

you're and I would say it's a small element of these companies that are doing that. Yes, but they tend to be the control. They were the controlling element, those like sort of activist folks that were and I was at facebook in 205 and .

worked to facebook。

I worked a facebook, worked on open source mostly. I worked on react and react, one of the most powerful kind of wave programing user and faces so I mostly worked on that. I didn't really work on the kind blue APP and all of that um but I saw this side of the cultural change were like a small minority activists.

We're just like shaming anyone who is thinking independently and it's sent silicon valley and I just like a sheep like direction where everyone is afraid of this activities. St class because they can cancel you. They can you know um I think one of the early shots fire there was like branded an eke the invention of java script, the invention of the language that like runs the browser.

Uh because the way he votes or or donates whatever get get fired from his position of co of muscle brothers and that was like seen as a win or something and I was like, again, I was like, very politically yeah I was not really interested in politics and like twenty twelve thirteen when I first came to this country but that way I just accept IT is like all these people to ross liberal is what you are, whatever. But he just looked at that was like, that's awful. Like you know, no matter what his political apis like you year, year, year taking for a man his ability to earn a living, eventually he started another brother.

Company is good, right? But um this like sort of cancel culture, create such a bubble of conformation. And the leadership class of these companies were actually afraid of the employees.

So that is the fact that bothers me most. So kind of valley is defining our future is that is technology. We don't have kind of technology in the united states anymore and manufacturing creativity obviously been extinguished everywhere in the visual arts, everywhere so come away is the last yes important was the most important yes.

And so the number one requirement for leadership is courage. Number one yeah number nothing even comes close to bravery um as a requirement for wise and effective leadership so if the leaders of these companies were afraid of like twenty six years unmarried creature girls in the H R department, like wow, that's really cowardly. Like shut up.

You're not leading this company. I am like that's super easy. I don't know why that's so hard. Like what the .

reason I think IT was hard IT was because these companies were competing for talent hand over fist and IT was a set of zero interest era and and sort of the U. S. economy. And everyone was throwing cash at like talents. And therefore, if you offend the sensibilities of the employees, even to the slight test bit a, you are afraid that there they are, gonna ve, or something like that I am trying to make up an excuse for.

But you can answer this question because you are the talent that know you came all the way from Jordan to work in the area, to be at the center of creativity inside. So um the people who do what you do, who can write code, are the basis of all of this. Are they I don't like they seem much more like you were James do more. They just they don't seem like political activist to me.

For the most party there, there are still uh, a segment of this of programmer population.

Well, they have to be rational because code is about reason, right?

I mean, this is the whole thing. You know, it's like I don't think I mean a lot of these people that we do coding things that yeah like, look, I think coding could help you come but very easily over, right. I .

think if this .

is true .

and that is .

true and that must people are compartmentalise ed, right? Like now i'm doing coding. Now i'm doing emotions, the brain, computers, but not exactly that point. I you know when that is that.

So no, I am really, as you know, responsible for the most amount of people learn in the code in amErica because I I was like a um I like built the reason I came to the U. S. Is I built a piece of software, was the first to make IT easy to uh code in the browser. And I went super viral and a bunch of U S.

Company started using, including a code academy uh and I join them as like a founding they had just started two guys, amazing guys they are just started and I joined them and I would be taught like fifty million people out of code like many of them many millions of them are american um and you know that the a sort of redder again a time what you would say is like coating is important because no teacher has had to think competition thinking and all of that. I was like not maybe i've said IT at some point, but I i've never really believed that. I think coding is a tool you can use to build things, to automate things to its a fun tool.

You can do art with that. You can do a lot of things with that. But ultimately, I don't think you know you can you sit people down and sort of make them more rational um and you get into all these weird things if you try to do that, you people can become more rational by virtue of education, by virtue of seeing that you know taking a more rational approach to um to their life yields results. But you can't you can't like really teach IT that way.

Why I agree with that completely. That's interesting. I just thought I was a certain because I have to say without getting in a controversial territory, every person I have, every man who writes code like it's kind of similar in some ways. Every other person .

could not sure yeah.

not a broad cross section of any population now and all well.

people who make IT a career. But I think anyone ever can write a lot.

But I mean, I look paid to do right right? Yeah um interesting. So bottom line, do you in then we didn't even mention elon mask David tax um I have also come up for trumps. So do you think the vibe shift in silicon value is real?

yes. Actually I would credit sax in origin like perhaps more than elon because is one party's state. Yeah no one watches you.

For example, I know you ever watched anything, so of you was want to offer journalist, but most people didn't get any right wing or center right opinions. Uh, a funerals part. Didn't seek IT IT wasn't there you're swimming and just you know liberal, democratic, uh sort of talking points. I say sax uh in the all in podcast was sort of the first time a lot of people started on a weekly basis hearing a conservative talk .

being David time mazing.

And I would start to hear at parties and things like that. People described their politics as sex sexism. I know I agree with you most of time, agree with you know sexes a point of view on all in podcast like yeah you're kind of maybe moderate or center right at this point ah what he's so .

reason of his first is wonderful person I am might be in but like I didn't have any sense of the richer that podcast until I don't have no sense at all and he said, like we do my pocket shame because I love David tax I do the pocket like everyone I ever met text me oh, you're on all in podcast is not my world I didn't realize that is the vector if you want to reach sort of business minded people were not very political but are probably going to like send money to a body who's bundling for combo because like but she's our canada. Yes, that's the way to reach people like that.

right? And Better, Better way. This is my point about technology can have a centralizing effect, but also decentralizing. So youtube, uh, you can argue youtube is the centralized thing. They're pushing opinions on us, whatever.

But you know, now you have a platform, youtube, after you fire from fox, uh, your rope sacks, uh, can I have a platform? Uh, and put these opinions out. And I think you know there was a moment during covered that I felt like they're going going to close everything down。

Yeah for a good reason you felt that way? yes.

Ah and and maybe there were maybe there's gonna some other event that they will allow them to close IT down. But yet one of the things I really love at about amErica is the first amendment is just the most important institutional innovation in the history of humanity. I would .

be without IT. I must be we .

really protect like we like we should be so covering of IT like you know what you know like you're .

wife for something. Can you talk with great hands off. Can you just repeat your description of its importance historically?

I'm sorry you put IT so well. Um it's the most important institutional innovation in human history.

The first amount is most important institutional innovation in human history. Because I love that I think it's ABS absolutely right and is someone who grew up with IT in a country that he had IT for, you know, two hundred years when I was born. Um you don't feel like it's like what the first one minutes like just part of nature and it's a gravity IT just exists but as someone who you know grew up in a country doesn't have IT which is the true of every other .

country only that has um .

you see is that what you see that is the thing that makes amErica amErica .

well the things that makes IT so that we can change course. Yes right. And in the reason why you know we had this uh you know conformists, mob rule mentality that people call work， uh uh you know um the reason that will now past that almost you are still kind of there but we like we're on our way passed that is because of uh of the first amendment and free speech and again, I would create on a lot for buying twitter and letting us talk, debate and push back on the craze right?

It's kind of IT was beautiful. I've been a direct beneficial even as I think everyone the country has been so i'm not quit and I love you on but I mean little aware that like a foreigner has to do that a foreigner reign born person you elon appreciates IT in this way. It's like it's a little depressing like what in some american born person do that? I yes, I don't we don't take IT yeah, I wrote a thread is like .

ten things I like about america. I expected to do well but you know I three four years ago I was super viral, did lossy journal cover IT peg and you know called me and was like I I want to write story bit like okay, he's like a twitter thread great but um you know I I I and I just like talk about Normal things in free speech, one of them, but also like hard work, appreciation for talent and all of that. And he was starting to close up, right? I started to see your matter grazy kind of like being less valued and think that's part of the reason why I rode the thread and what I what I realize is like, yeah, most americans don't think about that and don't really value IT as much and so maybe you do you .

do need absolutely right I um but why do you think I mean, I have seen I I hate to say this because I ve always said my whole life that foreigners um are great you know I like traveling forever countries i'd like my best friend is foreign orn actually, as opposed to mass immigration as I am.

Which I am arabs really like you.

by the way, I really like eras. So turn off the brain washing, just sidewalk. I feel like we had bad experience with arabs twenty three years ago, and what a lot of americans didn't realize.

But I knew from travel, a lot of them in at least, yeah, was bad, is bad. However, like that's not representative of the people that I have dinner within the middle at all. Someone once said to you, like, those are the worst people in our country.

And right hand, no, I totally agree with that strongly. I was defend the erb in our hard felt way, but I no I I wonder if some of the specifically the higher income immigrants recently, I ve noticed, are like parting the same kind of anti american crops that they're learning from the institute. You know, you come from put job and go to stanford and all of a sudden, like you've got the same rotten decade attitudes of your native borne professor from stanford.

Do you see that? No, I am not sure what's the distribution like I mean, speaking of of indians, I am on the right, on the right back.

We who's the best, who's a private example of what like the is thought through, not just like first to be a good, but why is good?

You know, I am not sure. You know, i'm not sure. good. Yeah, I think it's yeah, I think farmers, for the most part do appreciate more but it's easy. You know I talk about how I just you know try not so and act tonic, but it's very easy for people to go in these um one party state places uh and really get you know become part of this like mob mentality where everyone believes the same thing in any any uh from that is considered cancellable offence.

And you know you asked about the shift and looking valley, I mean part of the shift is like, yes, look very has a lot of people who are independent minded and they see the sort of conformist type of thinking in the democratic party and that's really repulsive for them where you know there's a like a party line so like a baLance sharpers attack shoppers attack. Everyone says that and then the debate happened or unfit, unfit, unfit and then, oh, he's out of koala. Koala a is like great.

It's like, you know lop and there's like no range. There's no there's very little descent within within that party and maybe republicans, I think at some point where we're the same, maybe now it's a it's it's sort of a little different. But this is what why people attracted to to the other sites about about this is advice for the democrats. Like if you want silicon value back, you you know maybe don't be so controlling of opinions and like, be okay with more than .

you have to inquisitive, but power to do that. I means the same as raising teenager is always the life of every parent of teenagers, where a child is going in the direction you don't want to know what shooting heroin direction, you have to interview next force, but there a lot of directions a kid can go that are deeply annoying deas, and you have to restrain yourself a little bit.

If you want to preserve the relationship, actually, you want to preserve your power of the child, you have to pull back and be like, i'm not going to say anything this time will come back to my my gravitational pull strong enough, i'm gona lose this child because he does something that offends me today. You know, I mean, can hold too tightly. And I feel like they don't understand.

I feel like the democratic ty, i'm not an intimate, of course i'm not the meetings, but I feel by their behavior that they feel very threatened. That's what I see. These are people who feel like they're losing their power, yes, and they have to control what you say on facebook.

I mean, what? Yes, you wonder what people say on facebook. You know you've lost confidence in yourself this right?

Do you feel that? yeah. And I mean, you know you know there's a matt A A B and Michael burger and a lot of folks, a lot of great work on censorship, yes.

And the government's kind of uh, involvement that and have they push social media companies? Don't if you can put IT just on the democrats because I think part of IT happened during the trumpet monstre tion as well for sure. But I think they're more excited about IT. They really love misinformation as a term which I think of b inter .

all that matters whether it's true or not yeah and the term miss and this information doesn't even address the veracity of the claim is relevant to them. The fact is true more upsetting .

yeah it's like everything where we talk about earlier is making people stupid by taking the faculty of you're trying to design, uh, truth I think that you know that's how you actually become rational by like trying to figure whether something is true or not and then and then being right wrong and and then that a really a kind of trains you for having a Better judgment when you talk to a judgment, that's how people build good judged。 You can't outsource your judgment to the group.

Which again is like feels like what's asked for us, especially in in liberal circles. Is that no, that he knows Better. Two weeks to sources, fred, you know, take the jobs, stay home where they mask.

Yeah, just like talking down to us as children. You can't discuss some things on youtube. You get band at some point of, you couldn't say the labeling theory, right? This is now the mainstream theory yes. Um and I get on a lot of the south corrected because of the first amount .

yeah anyone oh that was that was as interesting as dinner was last name little less profit but I. Really gratefully.

you took the time to do that. Thank you.

That's absolutely my pleasure. IT was mine.

Thank you. thanks.

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