293: Toxic Relationships: Life After Armie Hammer with Elizabeth Chambers
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Hey guys, I am so excited because we are finally going back out on tour and this is going to be our biggest tour yet. We are hitting a lot of cities, coming to a city near you, and this tour is going to be unlike the last tour and unlike any episode or case that we have ever presented.

It's going to be an all-new exclusive case, an entirely new approach, interactive with you guys, and it is just going to be so great. I am so excited to connect with all of you guys. I am very eager for you to hear this case, and it's just going to be an unforgettable night.

So tickets are on sale now, but grab yours now before they're gone. You can get all of the information at AnnieElise.com. I will also link it in the show notes, and I'm really excited to see you there. So head to AnnieElise.com, grab your tickets, and I'll be seeing you soon. Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly.

Hey everybody, welcome back. I hope you are all having a fantastic Thursday and week. I am currently traveling right now, so because of that, I'm having some tech issues with my equipment. You know that I'm not the most tech-savvy person out there, but that's okay. So in lieu of headline highlights today, I am actually going to release a brand new episode for you. It's one that I recorded a couple of weeks ago that I wasn't planning to release until next week, but...

Here we are. So anyway, thank you guys for your understanding. I will be back with headline highlights next week and of course the deep dive on Monday, but I hope you enjoy today's episode. Elizabeth Chambers has broken her silence about estranged husband, Armie Hammer. Several women accused Hammer of sexual abuse, which he denied. What?

people like him do is like they figure out what means the most to you and then they weaponize it. A firestorm was created around one message in particular that referenced cannibalism. Elizabeth was left to put the pieces of her life back together. Now she's hosting a new series called Toxic. When it comes to toxic relationships, no one is immune. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly with me, your host, Annie Elise.

Hope you had a fantastic weekend. You're having a good week. You are ready to just hang out with me for a little bit, talk about some stuff because I have got a very, very interesting episode for you today. I also want to just remind all of you guys, we are officially going out on tour. We announced it just recently. Tickets are already on sale. They're selling really fast, which makes me so happy. I love that you guys are so excited and I'm so excited to meet all of you. It's going to be

unlike any episode, any tour we've done in the past, which we've only done one tour, but it's going to be interactive. It's going to be an exclusive case. It's going to be a whole new approach to how we do cases, which I can't go into the details. You're just going to have to come and see for yourself at the tour. But yeah, we are hitting so many different cities. It's our biggest tour yet. Tickets are now on sale and you can get all of that information over at AnnieElise.com. Now, as I said, today's episode is one that

I am really excited to share with you because

I just can't wait to hear your feedback on it. And I think you're really going to not only just like value the information, but I think it's going to open up a lot of eyes. Maybe I guess I should have said eye opening, but whatever. You get how we talk here. So today I'm going to be joined by a very special guest. And you know that we don't often have a lot of guests over on here, but I thought it was really important to have her join and share her story because she's

she hasn't really talked about her story in a big way out there. She hasn't shared too much about it. And we talk so much on this podcast about red flags, creating awareness, educating ourselves, knowing different signs to look for in toxic relationships. And she has really made it a mission of hers to explore the dynamics of different toxic relationships. And that all stemmed from coming out of her own. Right.

very toxic relationship. So she's looking at the red flags. She's looking at different forms of abuse, whether it's financial, emotional, physical, mental, whatever it may be. So I am really excited to have her here. And it is none other than the amazing, the beautiful, the incredibly talented and incredibly smart Elizabeth Chambers. Now, you might recognize her from her very high profile marriage to celebrity and actor Armie Hamm.

Now, you may know Armie from the several movies that he has been a big lead actor in. One of the ones that I know comes to mind for me is The Social Network, the Facebook movie. I think he actually, what, he played dual roles in that because he was playing the twins, right? What are they called? The Winklevoss and twins or the something weird last name. And I apologize because that's actually their real last name. And here I am saying it's weird, but he played the twins. He also was in Hotel Mumbai, which if you haven't seen that movie, that movie, like,

irks me to my core. It is so terrifying and it's like my worst nightmare. But he has been in so many films and just so many other ones. So you may recognize him from those, but you also may recognize his name from being essentially canceled a few years ago. Now, before I get into that, into those allegations, the two of them were together for over 10 years. They also share children together. But in 2021, their lives were completely turned upside down when their split went public.

It was also followed by a wave of shocking allegations against Army. Multiple women came forward accusing him of emotional abuse, coercion, and also violent sexual behavior, including very disturbing claims of cannibalistic fantasies and manipulation, saying, he's a cannibal, he wanted to do cannibalistic things to me, a lot of very disturbing allegations. So these allegations...

immediately made headline news worldwide. And because of that, Army was effectively canceled. He was removed from multiple film projects and everything was just, you know, up in chaos. However, through it all, Elizabeth stayed positive

pretty silent throughout all of it, just processing everything very privately while raising her children and trying to pick up the pieces of her life. And rather than retreating, she made a choice. She made a choice to understand. She dove super deep

into researching different topics like toxic relationships, psychological abuse, trauma bonds, red flags that we often see and that are overlooked. And now with all of that information, armed with so much research and so much education, she's sharing what she has learned. And she's sharing it in a very powerful new show called Toxic.

And in it, she's exploring how toxic dynamics really show up in relationships, oftentimes hard to even recognize. And she's sharing what it takes to not only escape them, but to truly heal from them. So today, she's here to talk about her own journey.

what really happened with her journey behind the headlines, and also what she hopes that people will take away from her new show, Toxic. So joining me today is Elizabeth Chambers. Welcome to Serialistly. Hi, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk with you. I have a lot of questions, so it's okay with you. I'm a big fan of yours. Yeah, let's bring it. Okay, so we'll kind of just get right into it. So you went through a very public split. Of

of course. And I'm sure some people are familiar with the headlines. Maybe they've heard bits and pieces, but for anybody who hasn't, can you just share a little bit about just that chapter of your life, how you navigated it and what the turning point was for you where you felt like things need to change? Yeah. I mean, listen, I never met a more traditional girl, right? Like I love the Christmas cards. I like families, everything. And I met the love of my life when we were 19 and 23. And

Every day I was like, how is this my life? Like I have the most amazing kids, the most amazing home. Like again, like, you know, I'm from the South, very traditional. Like I loved the monograms more than anyone. Like everything that exists has monograms on it. And I just felt like,

I just loved my life. But with this perfection also comes this fear that it's going to go away. I don't know. I look back at pictures where I was like, were you so happy? And I was, but also I was holding on so tightly to this idea that I had. And it was. I did have an amazing marriage. And then one day my life turned upside down and I was told that

He told me that he had an affair. And infidelity to me would normally be like a non-starter, you know? But when you have two young kids and one that's just born, you really...

fight hard for your family so we went to like extreme therapy um Esther Perel like I was like we're gonna do this we're gonna do it right and then the infidelity continued and for me that was just not that just wasn't an option and again some so many people are fine with it or people can look the other way but I just live in truth and that wasn't something that I could work with so um ended up filing you know a couple years later when I had it was the last straw and um

And really my focus was not on myself because I knew I was going to be fine, but it was on my kids. You know, divorce in of itself is traumatic. It is inflicting trauma on your children that you've brought into this world with the promise that you will never hurt them. Right. So you're like, now I'm making a decision and a choice. It's,

going to effectively hurt them. And that was something I really couldn't live with. So I became obsessed like a crazy person with figuring out how to minimize and mitigate this trauma. And I spoke to every family separation therapist you can imagine. I mean, I engage people in, you know,

Upper East Side New York, who is a Hasidic Jewish community, or a lady in Denmark, or London and Paris, like just people who were really recommended, who obviously didn't know me. They don't know my kids. They don't know my story. They've never met them. But it was kind of one of those, it's just a research mission and trying to take as much as I could from each one of them to figure out how to minimize it. And

The overall theme is that, again, it's not about my hurt and my pain. It's about making sure that they have a solid father figure in their lives and making sure that we're all the best we can be mentally, healthily, you know, all across the board. So that was so important to me. And now, I mean, five years later, we've like, you know, it was absolute hell for a really long time, especially because it was so public. We were living in the Cayman Islands and

But that was nice because you don't have headlines splash. Yeah, you're removed. Yes. We still have the internet, but you can turn your phone off and pretend it doesn't exist. Yeah. But it still hurts. And it was so much. That said, I'm so proud of us as a family. And my kids are exceptional and extraordinary. And I mean, we did. We made it through. Yeah.

that. And for anyone who's going through that, I would say like, there's certainly light, not only light at the end of the tunnel, but the only way to get through it is to really go through it. Yeah. Go through the hard stuff. I mean, going through, if you're going through hell, just keep going like that's such a cliche, but it's so true. And you have to, you have to like feel it all. You have to live it all. There's just no shortcut. So thank God for, I mean, there's so many amazing therapists that work with children. And again, they don't even

at this point in their lives, they're eight and 10. Like they don't have any idea as to what I went through. Of course not. You've shielded them from that. And they're just too young to know. Right. Right. But I think it's also so important, you know, they just, they have therapists once a week, which she is aware that I'm like, want to preemptively give them the tools in their toolbox. So that's how the show really came about was,

Looking at these family patterns, looking at, I look at my son, he looks so much like his father and his grandfather and his great-grandfather and has the same last name and the same blue eyes. And I thought, you know, at the same time, this documentary came out that was, I didn't really, I didn't watch it, but it was made.

by someone in their family. And I was just like, this is my kid's last name. Can you share a little bit about the documentary for people who maybe haven't heard of it? And you don't have to go into the specifics, but you're citing how it was changing. It was Ami's aunt, and she basically told her story. And I wasn't privy to...

a lot of the information. She wrote a book and she told a story. And I wasn't privy to that information. You get married, you love their parents, you hear their family history that's told to you by the family. And so obviously every family has things, but not every family has them written about. And so I really, I didn't know a lot of these things, but all I did know is that I have two children with this last name

With this DNA and with the future of being exposed to all of this information. So those are the three things I know, right? So all you can do is what you can do with the information you have. So I just, for me, and again, like we go through life as moms feeling that, you know,

that challenges or any sort of trauma is a worse thing for our kids. But like truly it's not, they need, I mean, adversity, kids need adversity. Not only is adversity, you know,

Good for kids like it's necessary for them to build their toolbox So that's like kind of my that was my exciting takeaway in terms of doing the research on for them and for the show is You know, why do people fall into patterns? What how much does your childhood shape who you become who you choose as a partner? Why are we brushing things under the rug when things should be discussed and open openly kind of you know broken down and

in the beginning of a relationship. Like we get into relationships so young. We don't know who we are in our early twenties. We haven't even had a chance to really like- No, it's like your frontal lobe is fully formed by what, 25? I think for males, I think it's like 32. Yeah.

I feel like you're being generous. But they're still in progress. We're not sure. But like, that's a thing. And so I, I'm, I'm grateful, honestly, now that I have the tools and that my children will have the tools. And that's so empowering, right? Like you can run from your story. You can run from your truth. You can pretend it doesn't exist, which bless our parents' heart. Like

Of course they did. Women didn't even have credit cards until they were like, until what, 1977? Like, of course they just brush it under the rug. They didn't have a choice. Yeah. They couldn't, they had to stay in a relationship and everything had to be great because what's the alternative? Like facing it. Well, I think you make a great point with that because not only are so many people used to or conditioned to brush it under the rug, but-

when you have young children, like you said, you were striving for perfection. And it's like, you want to just protect them. You want the full nuclear family intact. You hold on to the dream. And I think so many women and people, anybody can really...

I think everybody can agree and understand that point of view. But then it's like, and I don't know if your parents stayed together, but speaking for myself, my parents divorced when I was very young. And so for me, I always take that element of it personally to where I'm like, I don't care how bad things ever get. I don't want my kids to go through what I went through. But then to your point, it's like, yes, but they need to go through the adversity themselves.

They're better in a healthy dynamic and healthy co-parenting situation than unhealthy, which for anybody listening, don't start spreading rumors. My marriage is perfectly fine. I'm just saying it's like there's so many reasons for wanting to keep it intact, even if it's not the best situation for everyone involved. And so I would imagine that that's a very difficult decision to finally have to come to to say, okay.

I'm filing. This isn't the best situation for us anymore. Exactly. Or, I mean, it's actually just as simple as saying, would I want my daughter to stay in a relationship where she's not being respected? Or do I want my son to feel like it's okay? Absolutely. Because as moms, we do things for our children that we don't do for ourselves. You know, like I will happily eat a cookie for breakfast and pie for lunch. But like when I'm pregnant, I'm like...

you're building a superhuman, like, you know, it was a crazy person about like 9,000 ounces of organic salmon every day for the brain. Um, so like we do things for our kids that we don't do for ourselves. And so, um, yeah, I, I think it's, I'm so grateful because truly adversity as adults too. I mean, it just makes us stronger and, um,

Really, there's nothing that you can't do when you're set up for that. And that's like, again, why the show is so important to me because the conversations about financial abuse are so important, emotional abuse and balance in a marriage. And I cannot tell you when our, I mean, even before we aired, I'd have people messaging me and

I went to Vanderbilt, had great grades, financially independent, met a man who took over my Audi payment and got me a new car. And next thing you know, I have no autonomy. You have nothing. Yeah. I am basically asking for an allowance. And she was in a shelter. I mean, this is very upper class, highly educated woman.

successful before she was married, woman who basically had everything stripped from her little by little. It doesn't happen quickly. - Nope. You don't even know what's happening. - Exactly. And it's almost done so masterfully and with such an art. And that's something we talk about a lot on this show, and I know we're gonna dive into it more, but the red flags, the different forms of abuse, how they manifest, how people groom you. And it's like, it truly can happen to anyone. There's no perfect victim. There's no perfect prey. It's like,

everyone's susceptible to it. And like you said, you don't even know what's happening. You're like, this guy's taking care of me. Oh my gosh, he wants to pay my car payment. Or, oh, he wants me to live with him and so I don't have to pay rent. And before you know it, there's nothing of your own anymore. You can't escape that situation because you feel like there's nothing. And it's a really scary place to be. Right. And you find yourself in a shelter. I mean, there's so many different ways it could go. But

That is, I mean, that ultimately is the messaging and the conversation that needs to happen because there's shame. There's so much shame attached to this when you're like,

And you literally did everything your mom, you know, told you to. And we're fed this messaging. I say this all the time. We're fed this messaging in Disney movies. And then we're fed this messaging and, you know, by YM or Cosmo or like. YM. Oh man, that's a throwback. That's a good one. No, that's a good one. Like 17. It's like learn to give the perfect blow job. So he puts a ring on it. Yep.

Like that's what we were taught to do. To learn to get the perfect blowjob because you want to. Yeah. You know, like not because that marriage is our goal. And they like really they groomed generations of pick me girls. Yeah. And I agree with that. It's interesting, too. I wonder, have you noticed? Because this is I think we're similar in age. And I've noticed from our generation growing up, people were.

aiming to be married by 25 or 30, pop your first kid out by 30. And now I'm noticing the younger generations, most of them are kind of taking children off the table completely. And they're not getting married until their 40s because they want to live their life. They want to do that. And I'm like, I think it's finally progressing in a good direction to where people are feeling more independent. But I definitely have noticed a shift because then I think even when I was growing up, our parents got married when they were

early 20s started having kids. So it's like, it seems as though it continues to get pushed out further and further. I hope so. I think so. And with, again, more conversation, more advances in science and people being able to freeze their eggs. But also I think, I don't know, I think it's next generation. Like,

I started in news and I can't like, we have to laugh at all the bad jokes and rooms full of white men that were like 70. And we had to like, think, make them think they were funny when they weren't. And I don't think this next generation really, I don't know. I think that they're a lot more, I think they're a lot, a lot more like in tuned with what's fair and what's not. I agree. I hope. I think so. I definitely, especially just speaking for myself, employing a lot of the younger generations, they definitely are more vocal. Exactly, yeah.

I agree. I can barely get them to show up to work half the time. Yes, exactly. I wasn't going to go that far, but you're totally true. No, it is true. Okay, so you came to this hard decision to file for divorce and to move forward and really take ownership of your life, which is such a brave and courageous thing to do. But it's also not just a typical breakup or divorce that so many people go through. You were on this huge platform, this huge stage. The world was looking at you. Tabloids were circling, like articles happening all the time. During that, how...

How did you protect your peace? And not only that, but then decide, I want to dive into this further and start researching things about this and come out. Right. Well, I knew like there was so much, again, so much circulating about

And while I was really frustrated because a lot of it was misinformation or, again, very, like, skewed in a sexist way. And there was, I mean, like, flat out lies. I was so tempted to, you know, to, like, defend myself or defend the situation or set the record straight. Like, that's what we do. Yeah. But also, I also know that...

At the same time, you know, the press wants it to be a mudslinging on us and it was not going to say anything negative. And to this day, I would never say anything negative about my children's father to them or, you know, ever make them think that I have nothing but the most respect for him.

Um, but I knew that like, that's what would feel good at the time. And my mom always says, nobody ever regrets taking the high road. Um, so it was really hard to like sit there and see people spiral and weave like, um, untruths that said, all I had was my experience.

journey and my children's mental health. Right. So I really did dive deep. I did like obviously tons of therapy and I went so woo woo. I was burning paper, sending it to the ocean. Did you do any of the like ketamine therapies or anything like that? I didn't do that just because I really like my brain chemistry. Okay.

That's all I see on my TikTok. I know. And I'm like, I'm kind of curious, but I'm also kind of scared. I am too. I like the MDMA. I just read this really crazy book, wonderful book by Amy Griffin. I'm like, wow, that's so fascinating. But like the one thing I will say is I really appreciate how balanced and like non-mood, like I'm very balanced. So I just don't want to mess with that. Yeah. And there was enough stuff that was being messed with. So no, I just said like sound baths. That's good.

Yeah, that's good.

Um, the beauty of it was I could turn off my phone and, um, you know, I could just be in the moment and be with my kids. And those are their fondest memories. Like they don't know I would put them to bed and go like sob in the shower with the door closed. Um, they don't know that have all my friends picked up the pieces and made it seem like a really fun night. Like you're going to help me do dinner, dinner service tonight because I didn't have a nanny or babysitter. And I just like, you know, needed to cry alone. Like they didn't know. They just thought, um,

That was just the community. And it was, it was, it was all of those things. Both can be true. Yeah. So, okay, let's move into the show toxic because I know you started talking about it a little bit. I teed it up in the beginning of this episode, but it explores all sorts of different types of toxic relationships. And like you mentioned too, there's so many different forms of abuse, financial, emotional, mental, physical, all of these things. So what inspired you to

not only lean into your history, but everything that you were learning and researching it, and then put it into this new format of a show. You know, it was a full circle moment. Jason Sarlanas, who's president of Investigation Discovery and Discovery, he was my producer when I was at E! I had just come out of news and he was a producer 22 years ago. And he told my agent, you know,

I want her to do a show that's exactly about what she wants to do." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." Like that is a dream come true. I don't even know where to start. So really it started as this idea of patterns, relationship therapy,

parenting, how do we examine these relationships? And, you know, originally I didn't know if it was going to be, if it was going to be like, people have toxic friendships. People are in very, look at everything. Like so many people in court, people have very toxic relationships in their workplace. And then ultimately in diving deeply into these cases,

the romantic ones were the ones that really changed the course of people's life and in some cases ended it. So I became very clear that our show was going to be about toxic relationships. And it became very clear that our show was going to be about toxic relationships that have ended tragically. And sometimes that tragedy is in a grave. And sometimes that tragedy looks like coming out on the other end and stronger. But I mean, we just...

that it became so clear. This is something that is, you know, we have our dateline, we have our cold cases, but this is really the prequel. Yes. Like we look at these cold cases on dateline, but we don't know what led up to that. Right. And so the only way to potentially save lives and potentially like help people is to have this conversation started. And, you know, like during, especially during COVID, there were like little things on TikTok about like breadcrumbing, ghosting, and these little phrases started coming up and nothing was on TV about it. No.

And it was like a conversation you have with your friends over wine or something about like online dating. But it was very like loosely in the zeitgeist. But it wasn't very clear. And there certainly was not a show that says that.

If you don't wash out for X, Y, and Z, you can end up here. And that's really what I wanted to happen. I wanted everyone to end every single episode being like, am I in this relationship? Is my sister in this relationship? How can I prevent my kids from being in this relationship? And as moms of boys...

holding them accountable. Absolutely. I love that because another big topic that we always discuss and weave into all of the cases that we talk about on this podcast is we talk about it to create awareness and to be able to identify what are some of the red flags? What are things that maybe you aren't questioning yourself about that you should be? So with that, what would you say one of the most misunderstood signs of a toxic relationship is?

I would say one of the most misunderstood signs is the variation of love bombing, right? Like I love love. Like I, and I like for me, I'm not like a someone who can have disconnected sex, right? So I think there's a very fine line between somebody really feeling that connection, right? They say like, when you know, you know, and I felt that like, you know, I felt that and I believe in soulmates. So I think yes, when you know, you know, right?

But also when somebody is love bombing somebody else so much and that's their pattern or they do research, like there's so much information online. So for example, in episode one with Kelly Sutcliffe, he brought her mom's favorite white lilies, right? So she thought that was so thoughtful. That was so romantic. Or is that textbook? Yeah. Because he does it. So I think that's like the number one thing that is the trickiest.

because is it romantic and thoughtful or is it formulaic? That's a good point because so many people, I think, have the misconception that a relationship is only toxic if there's this overly dramatic abuse or manipulation happening, but really...

it's the subtleties that are weaved in as well. Or to that where you would be like, oh my gosh, he did his research or he was listening when I said this. So he brought it. He's so thoughtful. And it's like, no, this is a calculated move and what he's trying to do to where you then will, you know, almost push out the bad into your blinders and only focus on the good. Exactly. Exactly. And moving really quickly. So many of these women are so successful in their own right, but they move in very quickly, you know, usually under three to six months. Yeah.

And really just becoming so integrated so quickly into their lives while isolating them from their friends. I think, and I always say like the best indicator and red flag that you can literally get on a first date and people are like, I don't want to ask about relationships on their first date. I'm like, ask, save yourself the time. By the way, save yourself like the energy as, and say like, what's your longest relationship and why did it end? If they can't say a nice thing about an ex or if it's always the ex's fault, then

Red flag. Yeah. Like, run. She was psycho. She was an alcoholic. They loved to be like that. Like, never taking any accountability. And that is really... And again, I go back to this as a parent. Like, our job as moms, because one thing that was consistent across the board is all of these moms excuse these men's behavior. And I have a daughter...

daughter and a son. And I'm like, you're strong, you're powerful. There's nothing you can't do to my daughter. And to my son, I'm like, oh, how could I make it? You know, like, it's just hard not to. So holding men accountable for their actions and teaching them to be a gentleman who respects women. And when they don't do that growing up, having repercussions.

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What would you suggest with that on a first date, asking about the relationships? Are there any, if you had to pick like three questions. Yes, that's such a good question. Just what would you advise people who are listening, who maybe are still in the dating pool? What would you advise them to ask people? I mean, like everyone's so, again, it's the pick me culture. Like, I wouldn't ask that. That seems psycho. That seems crazy. I'm sorry. Like, do you want to waste five more hours on a second date if this person is, you know, is very much...

presenting these red flags. So for me, I like, listen, it doesn't need to be a job interview, but you can be like super cute and playful about it. Just say like, what was your longest, or even like present your own information first, right? Like, yeah, my longest relationship was X, Y, Z, but it didn't really work out because our relationship

you know, our work was not aligned. I was working too much. Or what was your longest relationship? And like, just make that a casual conversation, not like they're on the spot or being interrogated, but it is really important. And if they're like, she was a great person, you know, timing is everything. Green flag. Yeah. You know, at the very least yellow. We're not giving them too much credit too soon. But yeah, I think it's so important to ask that question and then, and what, find out about their friend group, you

you know, a lot of these textbook narcissists and textbook abusers, and I think people throw around the word narcissist too much, but with tendencies, they don't have a really great group of friends. Like, so do you like sports? Do you watch sports alone? Do you watch sports with your friends?

And then another thing that people really, really do is if they've done their research, all of a sudden, like they know that you like to hike because of an Instagram post. Oh, I love to hike. So again, we're not interrogating them. They're not like hooked up to a polygraph, but- I wish they were. I know what I'm saying. That's my ideal first date. That would be great. That would be amazing. I would say it was a lot of time and energy and heartbreak.

But you know, what was the last, oh, like dig into that a little bit. Make sure that they just didn't do their preemptive research and coming with the answers that you want. What did you like to hide? Like make sure that they have their own interests that are not mirroring yours. Yeah. You know?

opposites attract and it doesn't they don't need to assimilate to you definitely um so really like just again it doesn't have you're not like coming with your three by five index card of questions right but like weaving that into casual conversation is so important and i will i really wish that we could normalize that without girls being like oh my gosh and again i hear this so much yeah um i don't want them to think i'm crazy okay well your time is valuable you are

and a coveted asset, so treat it as such. Like you're not like, why, why do you want that? You could date, that's 20 hours. Time is the only thing we don't have rollover minutes in life. Like, why are you wasting your time to try to figure out somebody? Cause you're trying to be polite or seem chill. Like you can seem chill and get the answers. It's interesting too, because you mentioned the piece about, do they have a lot of friends? Do they have a big friend group? And I remember always hearing growing up, if somebody doesn't still have childhood friends in their life, then they are a red flag. There is something.

you know, to worry or to look into a little bit more. So even, sorry about that. So even aside from like love bombing or just, you know,

the friend piece of it, what other red flags, subtle red flags, or even, I guess, major ones would you say people should be on high alert for that maybe are not as obvious? I think it's like just getting to the core of who they are, right? Like being able to read if they're twitching, if they're like... So many, and again, I'm basing this just on season one, but we had a lot of different cases. I mean, you see six cases...

on the air, but we did a deep dive into so many more to get to those six. And a lot of them had obsession. And by the way, this is not anything negative towards the military. Like so grateful for everyone who's fought for our country, but a lot of them had fascination with the military or maybe they were not enlisted or some sort of fascination with government

police department, FBI, military across the board. Like some, I don't know. That was just something that was really interesting to me. They were fascinated by it. You mean in terms of like a hobby or just an interest? Well, a lot of them were, were former military, but the ones that weren't kind of like lied about it or said that there's a whole, like there's a whole sect of people who say that they're Navy SEALs. Now, do you think that's because they want

Of course, I mean, they want to feel more powerful and more important than they are. So they would. And I remember I forget which case it was where somebody lied about being, I want to say, Purple Heart or something like that. And it was like this entire thing. So that's interesting. And you saw that as like a pretty common thing. That was consistent throughout or just, you know, like they like to go to the gun range. They like to again, it's a starting control, like quietly. Yeah.

by saying, I have a collection of knives, I have a collection of guns. Oh, I just do that because... And then you kind of justify, like you sound like a psychopath if you're like, I have a collection of knives, but then tying that into some sort of military fascination or allegiance in a way. I also think, again, like just asking about how their longest relationships and how long if they lived with someone, right? So hopefully...

as you're dating, like someone's on the trajectory of really focusing on their own life, their own career, and not really being dependent on moving in with one woman after another. And in Kelly's case, she thought that she was, I think the second wife, she was the fourth. And he had moved in quickly with all of those. So again, like asking questions about the past and finding the relationship with their parents.

That was another thing that was so mind-blowing to me in terms of our survivors. I came into this season thinking that every single person probably had that modeled for them, like that their mom was in a relationship...

But the craziest thing was that every single one of them had really lovely marriages as examples. Which, again, back to my point that not only is adversity not the worst thing for children, it's necessary because they never saw their parents fight. And I know because I interviewed these people. It was like, leave it to Beaver. Yeah. And they had never seen. So the first person that comes along and sweeps them off their feet.

they assume that, um, that they're- That's just how life goes, you know, and that it's great and you found your perfect fairytale ending. Right. So ask them about their relationship with their parents, their mom in particular, um,

I mean, there's just so many little things that you can weave into a normal conversation. I do it with people I'm not on dates with. And I just, it's just. Are you doing it right now? I'm just kidding. I'm doing it with you. Tell me about your mother. Tell me about your father. Oh, now we're going to have a whole therapy session. Exactly. Lie down. I'll get a notepad. But no, I think it's just, I mean, we are, humans are wildly textbook. Yeah.

in a lot of ways. And I'm not saying like you want to necessarily go ahead and put people in boxes, but prejudice and prejudging exists for a reason. And if we can flip that and make it work for us instead of a way to judge someone in a negative light, let's get those tools in our toolbox so we can save ourselves time, energy, and in many cases you've seen lives. Because

And they're getting more, they get better with each survivor and with each victim. And I think that's like one of the things that really echoed with every single episode was, I have to stop this now because he's getting better and better with each target. And when all of these women shared that and

And I hope in next season we find men because it is when all these people said that they said it was such fear because they knew they were close. They knew they were lucky to be alive. And and that to me is just I mean, that's terrifying. Yes, exactly. Is there a particular case, whether it made it into the season or was one that you discovered through your research that really stuck with you or stood out to you for a certain reason? I

I mean, all the ones that are on air do for so many different reasons. But I think probably the most heartbreaking of all-- well, I mean, in addition to the heartbreak that you see on the screen, was the people that we found

And they had wild cases. And then we were engaged. They wanted to share their story. And then they would go radio silent. And then you would look online and realize that they went back to their abusers. And, you know, trying to paint the picture of he's better. And that was really difficult. I mean, there were two stories in particular in two cases that, you know, would have been so helpful to tell. And they both went back.

- What's the statistic, isn't it? It takes eight times to successfully-- - Well, it takes eight times to call the police. - Oh, wow. - Eight episodes of domestic violence. They say seven to nine episodes of domestic violence just to call the police. - Wow. - And if you see throughout our season, everyone said like, "Aren't you so disenchanted with men? Aren't you so disenchanted with dating?" And I'm like, "No, you have to look for the helpers." Because in every episode, there's a helper.

And in Kate Randa's case, she would have gone back to the man that shot her in front of her son and shot her parents and almost tried to kill her son. But if not for a child protective services worker, Shantrice, and she said...

I will take your son away from you if you go back to that man. And so it takes that. It takes a helper oftentimes, or it takes an FBI detective like Detective Lippman and Kelly Sutliff's case. Like it takes those people to say, you're not willing to help yourself.

So I am going to step in. And that's what gives, I would imagine, not only them hope, but you hope too, reporting on it, researching it, investigating it. And as you navigate your own personal life, it's like there are good humans. Because that's one of the questions I think that I get asked the most often is, how do you cover such heavy material, heavy cases, real life stories, and not become hardened by that or pessimistic about it? And I always say too, first and foremost, I think

their stories deserve to be heard and told and hopefully in an educational way. But yeah,

I also think too, it's like you have to know that there's good behind it as well. And there are people like you call them helpers. And so that's what gives hope and encouragement for just humanity as a whole, as lame as that sounds. But you're doing such good work because as we both know, I mean, it's not the justice system and I'm sorry. And it's not like the people don't go into that line of work.

understanding that it's so flawed. I mean, look at Morris County. They've never prosecuted a single domestic violence case in this entire county in New Jersey. Really? Never. Wow. I mean, it's unbelievable. No one spent a night in jail for domestic violence. So you know what? You want to beat the crap out of your spouse, move to Morris? Nobody had really said that.

on television, nobody had really made that known. So you giving a voice to so many victims and to really laying things out, I mean, that was the thing that was so disheartening was the justice system fails you. So of course someone's going to report. You really have to be your own advocate and it has to become your life work. I mean, if you are gonna get the justice that you need or the protection,

No one's going to do it. No one's going to do it. You have to be an advocate for yourself. And that is daunting enough when you're already trying to leave somebody who you love. Exactly. So I think it kind of, at least with me, and I'm sure for the listeners, it brings it full circle. It's like sharing these stories and the red flags to look for and all that.

hopefully it gives them enough knowledge and insight before they ever find themselves in a situation like that so that they can identify what's going on, not even need to be put in a position to escape it because they're not getting into it. And then you're not fighting the justice system and everything else that's like a domino effect. Exactly. Exactly. And having that community, you know, there's so many, Kelly, again, she's been such an advocate for women. She had her firearms taken away from her. She's the only domestic violence

survivor to have her firearm taken away. He knew that the magazine law had changed in New Jersey and that her magazine of her gun had 20 instead of 10. And so he had her gun taken away from her. So after she had already, you know, filed so many complaints. And so he took her gun away and she said, okay, well, I'm going to get dogs and then started a whole foundation for dogs. And she had the P with protective dogs. So what happened?

she's done though is create this community where people see her story and come to her before it's too late or come to her after. And I think just this conversation, conversation, I always say that, but like that is our best, that's our best weapon against this injustice is talking about it and making it common logic in a dream world. Every 13 year old who, when they turn 16 and starts to date is like, no, no, no. Like that's what we need for future generation. And I always say our demographic is people who have dated are dating are going to date, which is everyone. Yeah.

And then to get the help. Hopefully people who have bad patterns can say, wow,

I saw this, I didn't have an opportunity to really change it or change course correct. And the ones that want to get help understand the power of therapy. Yeah, I think removing the stigma, feeling any sort of shame or like you have to protect or hide or not ask if something is weird in a relationship that you're in. Of course, I understand if you're feeling threatened or it's now at a violent or dangerous level, you may not feel comfortable saying,

talking to somebody or sharing. And I certainly understand that. But before it gets to that point, feeling that there isn't a stigma and you can ask your best girlfriend, like, Hey, he kind of did this. Like, should I look at it weird? Should I question it? And just not feeling like women, I think tend to feel is like, am I going crazy? Am I too over, like looking into this too much? Am I overanalyzing? It's like, no, it's

ask the questions. This is your life. Exactly. So a lot of women, I would say too, especially just in cases I've covered, and I'm sure cases that you've covered, they stay in relationships as we talked about earlier, because they're feeling afraid, threatened, financially trapped, emotionally manipulated. I mean, the list could go on and on. So what would you say to somebody?

Who knows that their situation is unhealthy or suspects that it's unhealthy, but doesn't even know where to begin. Right. And that's such a great question because it can manifest itself in so many different ways. I would say get your ducks in a row while quietly being compliant. So, you know, you know, you're not happy. You know that the result is.

or the reaction is going to be a big one, that's when you really start taking care of yourself. And that's when you buckle down and you say, I need to speak to this therapist. I need to involve my parents or whoever your close circle of friends is and be vulnerable with your friends and find resources. I mean, people have reached out to me and of course, whenever

Whenever somebody does, you can't be so involved in every single case, but resources are huge. If it's a specific divorce attorney who is really fair and not money hungry, but just wants to help people in this department. Or if it's like in the case of our third episode, Carrie, who's an amazing lawyer who really focuses on revenge porn. And that's like, that is her thing. She has a whole, that's like her whole market and her whole client base.

is certain things. So I think like asking for help, doing the research and then having an exit plan and doing all of that very quietly so you don't blow everything up and face more violence. What would you say out of all of those resources? Because I think those are all such great tips. And if they're not prepared to, of course, go to the police because they know the reaction is going to be big, they're scared. What would you suggest as being

the most strategic and smart resource to go to? Is it a therapist where you can be fully transparent with everything and you know that that's under lock and key? Those words will never get out. Is it a parent who you trust will remain, of course, on your side, but also quiet? Where would you say the best resource to start is? Right. I mean, that's the thing about parents too. They have their own stuff, right? That's tricky because I've known people who have been in really unhealthy relationships and I

Kind of their daughter was living out the fantasy of the life that mom never had. And she's like, just stay, just stay. So I think parents can be tricky. And again, I'm not a licensed professional, but I think therapy, if you can afford it, is always the best option because they can help.

everything is protected and they can give you really professional advice and steps. It's like, you just need to have, again, I keep saying exit plan, but a plan of action where you know that you're moving in the right direction. But, but again, and then look at our episode four where she was dead in eight months, you know? So again,

It's just even just that she was so almost comatose because she was being drugged every day. I think it's just advocating for your mental, physical health and emotional health and going to the professionals who can provide that. You can say, I'm going to a doctor, depending on how controlling your situation is. You don't have to say a therapist. You can say, I'm going to the doctor. But really just taking that first step, because I think

I always say, people are like-- And even online, it's just ridiculous. People are like, "Why did they stay? Why did they stay?" And it's like--

If you open a door 10 times and you get punched in the face 10 times, you don't open the door. But people don't understand if you open the door 10 times and six of those times you're hugged and told, you know, love bombed and told that like, you're amazing that you keep opening the door. And I think that that's like a very real way to put it when people can't understand how someone can stay. Yeah. They opt to like...

We're both probably incredibly optimistic people. And I can see if you're optimistic, you're going to think that they're going to change, especially they're going to tell you, I'm never going to do it again. So that you almost, I think naively want to believe because you want the hope to be the new reality. Yes. And you're in this cycle in your brain, like your brain neuron path needs to be interrupted because you're

It's like just believing it's in a cycle. And so I say anything that will get you out of the cycle, anything like that will just get you out of that cycle so you can see the forest for the trees,

and someone can tell you this, this, and this. And then again, that's accountability, right? If you're speaking to a therapist, you're allowing more helpers into your life. Like the opportunity for someone to give you an ultimatum when you can't maybe give it to yourself. Of like, if you don't leave this person, I'm actually going to report you to Child Protective Services because you're putting your child in a dangerous situation. Yeah, it forces your hand a bit. I love the door analogy. And I think too, when the conversation is about

Reaching out and making that first step, which is obviously incredibly difficult and takes so much courage. It's like I would imagine that even if they reach out once to a therapist and what, like you said, if you disguise it as a medical appointment or whatever it is, once you successfully have opened the door a little bit with that and you realize like it's okay.

I think that would then give these victims to more courage to continue to speak and open up more, share more, and then hopefully start getting some traction to where they feel confident enough to form the exit plan. Exactly. Exactly. Not, you know, not tiptoeing about it. These people, I mean, these therapists are there for a reason being very open and honest upfront. I mean, they're expensive. It's expensive to have a therapy session and, and you don't want to waste your time. And so I always say,

to i have friends that are in situations like this and i tell her the good the bad and the ugly at the top yeah um like don't we don't need like you're not don't be embarrassed we're not going to tea you're not going to tea like you're not going to get into it 100 yeah and see if they're the right one too right like so there's therapy and then there's good therapy yeah and there's also such thing as bad therapists let's be real definitely um so figure out if that's something that they have

experience in if that's something that they have the resources. And if not, try someone else. But don't waste your time and money

by being polite in the beginning. Just say, you know, lay it all on the table and let them understand the severity of the situation. That's great advice. So for people who now I'm sure are going to go binge toxic after this, because you guys definitely should, the episodes are fantastic. What do you hope people take away from it when they watch it? Whether they are in the most healthy relationship, whether they're in an unhealthy relationship, what's the hope? I mean, the hope is just that, again, I want everyone to

end with questions, really question themselves, question the loved ones. I always say if you have, sure, if you, if I say right now and come up with three people that you feel like are not in balanced relationships that could be toxic, you can come up with them right away. See something, say something. It's not always our position unless, you know, if it's an acquaintance, not really your position, but like if it's a friend, just have those conversations with them, take them to coffee, check in with your friends. I want that to be like a huge takeaway. And then B,

look at those little microaggressions in your own relationships and address them. I'm not saying I want to come in and blow up everyone's marriages, but... Girl, but kind of. Yeah, but post-abortion is fun. But I want there to be balance. There are so many instances where there are just small things that make the other person feel little that aren't addressed. Maybe one

You know, one person really is excited for dinner or some dinner for someone and they're like, oh, it's fine, but they never really give them the validation. Or maybe it's like never really like always just kind of undermining in small ways. So, you know, I always say there's imbalance in every relationship. There's an imbalance.

One person's usually more extroverted and more socially adept. There's an imbalance financially. One person always makes more money, whether you want to admit it or not. There is an imbalance. Fertility was like maybe one person really wants to have a baby. The others finish. Like I didn't know fertility was abuse. Abuse was a thing before the show.

There's always an imbalance and that's fine because that's actually just natural. But when it becomes an issue is when that imbalance is used as power or aggression against you. So, you know, if nothing else, if you're so happy in your marriage, but there's just one thing that you feel like could be a microaggression or a micro imbalance that doesn't make you feel good. That's also like on the very, very smallest scale. Yeah. Something I hope people take, you know, I'm not like, even if you are in a really healthy relationship, there's always, it's like that's,

that's why I love mental health and therapy because you can always biohack your brain, right? You can biohack your emotions. We do that all the time with our bodies, but like, why are we not biohacking our happiness? Yeah, absolutely. So like look for those little patterns and, and it doesn't just have to be marriage. It doesn't have to be like, you know,

romantic relationships. It could be platonic. It can be a balanced friendship where you feel like you do an imbalanced friendship where you feel like you're always picking up the pieces for someone else and just have that conversation. Like all we have is each other and our community and conversation. And with that, it can be so powerful. I think even relationships with parents too, there's so many different dynamics that come into play with that too, where you want to, no matter what age you are, you still feel as though your parent is your

Yeah.

So like just, I think questioning things and looking at things under a microscope without having like necessarily big reactions unless they're necessary. And most importantly, check in on those people. I always say like you have one life to live. We know the date we're born. We don't know the date we're gonna die. But like that dash in between on your tombstone, like I want that to be like the most pixelated, vibrant, gratifying dash imaginable. And when you consider that people are in really bad,

toxic relationships where they live almost like dead inside just explaining just great I'll wait till the kids graduate I hear that so often I'm just gonna wait till they graduate why you are you are you

you're miserable. They are miserable. And you're going to wait so they can say that both parents slept under the same roof. Yeah. No, you're not like a sacrificial lamb. You have your own life to live and they will be so inspired and live by example and live their life. If you live by example. Yeah. And so I, I, I hear that and it kills me.

It kills me. It's just wait, get to their 18 and then I want to make a move. And I just, and again, not here to judge. It's just, you know, your life is more valuable than that. Yeah. Your life is valuable too. And you should be making the most of it and not sacrificing for somebody else's happiness. Exactly. Yeah. I think too, for anybody who thinks that there are no microaggressions either, or they're in a perfect relationship by watching this series, that's,

you are seeing just like you see on this podcast, other podcasts, whatever, you're seeing all these different dynamics and relationships. So it's also educating you on knowing what to look for in your friends, in your loved ones relationships so that you can be a source of strength for them, even if they're not ready to reach out to you. So I think there's anybody can learn from it. And it's what you said. And I hope like, I mean, I hope that we're also looking within, right? So in doing the show, I'm like,

I stopped. I was like, guys, I think I'm a love bomber. And they're like, okay, but I was like, wait, I need to like talk to my therapist and break this down. Because like, if we're not looking inward, something's wrong. Like, you know, that's like the definition of narcissistic tendencies. But I really became, I was like, maybe I'm the problem. It's me. And I really felt like I needed to examine it. But again, you can need to feel that connection. You can like,

I will say, I love you when I leave you. Like I love mom, everyone, but it's not like, I just, I just feel, you did hug me the moment you walked into the studio. Just kidding. I was just, I was just plotting. No, but like, you have to ask yourself, right? Like, do I do certain things that my parents did? Um, and, and be aware because that really is, is the key too. So you can lead with vulnerability and, and make sure that you're keeping your behavior in check. Yeah, absolutely. Like, because I was like, why do I love people so quickly? And it's friends. It's,

And I'm like, I asked my therapist, like, I mean, that's just how you were raised by Southern parents and everyone's just hospitable. And, you know, you own bakeries because you love hugging strangers who come in to giving them cupcakes. Like that's just how you are. But you need to be aware that in a relationship that you're being really open and honest with someone.

Because, you know, people have proposed. I'm like, why did... No, no, I don't. And then because I'm making them believe that it's further and more, you know, and more serious maybe than it is. So yes, you can be someone who's very ingratiating and loving and say I love you soon and fast, but like also just be open and honest about where you are in that relationship and understand like that having that awareness of yourself is half the battle. And then everything else is just...

conveying it. Absolutely. For anybody listening who is maybe going through a toxic relationship of their own right now, and they're not ready to take a step forward or reach out to anybody, what advice would you give them for anyone listening? I mean, again, I'm not a licensed professional, but I would say watch Toxic and see how

things are presented and how differently it can end and, and really get on these people's Instagrams on their TikToks on there. You know, follow people who have been through it and educate yourself. Like this is your time. If you're not ready to leave, this is your time to gather evidence and information and present it to your friends.

I don't want to say perpetrator if they haven't done anything yet, but present it to your partner in a way that really tests where they are in that, where they lie. Like I think everything is on a spectrum of everything. And so, you know, present certain ideas to them, watch a show, watch an episode of any true crime together, see how their response is to that. And I think it's really interesting because a lot of true crime

consumers, their partner doesn't like to watch with them. And in Kelly Sutliff's case in episode one, he said, when he was trying to kill her, he said, "Thank God you watched so much Investigation Discovery.

Because now I know how to make it look like you tried to murder me. Oh, my God. And he literally quoted that because she had watched so much. So I think really put yourself in situations or dynamics where their colors are revealed, whether it's a dinner party with a friend that you've confided in and say, like, when this came up, did you see this? You know, I think it's just that if you're not ready to

It's just that that's kind of the stage of information gathering. I love that. Just educate yourself as much as possible so that if you are ready in the future, you have all the tools. Exactly. And know that you're not alone. I mean, the statistics are staggering. It is...

shocking how many people, but by the way, have come out on the other side and really healthy relationships and loving relationships with more tools than they would have ever had. So I don't want everyone to think it's a death sentence because it's really not, but you have to do the work and you have to leave. And I think that's the hardest thing is because they just feel like they so they're going to be loved, right? It just feels hard. It feels so hard to say I'm leaving someone who loves me 60% of the time and makes these promises and

to be alone. And I think that's another thing that's like our society needs to change. Be alone, do the work, like love yourself, figure out exactly who you are. You do not need another person, period. Like where the construct of marriage was created when people died at the age of 30 and got married at 13, like, right. And we had kids to work on their farm. Like, no, this, this lie that Disney movies has told us. And,

And that, you know, these dating magazines have told us like, no, you don't need to be with anyone to be happy. You don't need kids to be happy. Just be happy with yourself in 100%. 100%. Well, thank you so much for joining today. I really appreciate it. And everybody go watch toxic. You have two episodes left for release. We have two. Yes. It's a two part about the same person. It's, I know, I don't know if you saw bad vegan, but that man has been on the run for nine years and, and yeah, we find him. Oh,

there we go and can you let everybody know where they can find toxic where they can find you yes of course i am elizabeth chambers on instagram and then toxic is every monday night on id and then we're also streaming on max so go binge on max and then um catch episodes new episodes on mondays amazing all right well thank you so much okay thank you so much for listening to another episode of serialously today i hope you enjoyed it and found it insightful educational valuable all

all the things. As another reminder, don't forget, get your tour tickets before they are sold out if you want to come. We are coming to a city near you and it's unlike any tour, any episode, any case we've ever covered. It is going to be an entirely different approach. You are not going to want to miss it and I cannot wait to meet all of you. So tickets are at AnnieElise.com. All the information's over there and grab them now. Other than that, I will be back with another episode very soon. Thank you again so much for tuning in and until the next one.

Be nice. Don't kill people. Watch out for all of the red flags and just, you know, keep your senses on high alert. All right. Bye, guys.

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