Talking Dateline: Down the Basement Stairs
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Everybody, this is talking date night. I'm judge mac. What's and i'm joined by Dennis Murphy. Hi Dennis. Hey about how you doing, i'm good. Um we are here to talk about the episode from last friday, which is called IT down the basement stairs.

Now if you, the audience, have not seen this episode, or if you've not heard IT on podcast IT is the podcast episode right below this one on the list that you just chose from to get here. So go there, listen to down the basement stairs or watching on television, and then come back here. I don't think that I have ever covered the case at date line where there were four trials.

I think that's the headline. The other thing, we've been in courts a long you I think my experiences, state prosecutor goes for a one time they lose, hang jury, they come back and they go again. But after two, if they don't get IT, after two, you know, everybody shake hands and goes home.

That's my experience. I've never, I can't recall one going four rounds like this. But where somebody, he's there, we gna spoke of records. Look at IT up and i'll be proved wrong. But IT is extraordinary.

yeah. I mean, there are our cases that go more times, but frequently that hinges on evidence that was admissible one time, being inadmissible another time. This is kind of the same case, and prosecutors sort of couldn't make IT go speculation.

I don't think they could play the movie as IT were for the jury and tell them what happened in that house. Okay, here are the two women at the top of the stairs. What happens? Is there a fight as one fall is one pushed? And what happens when they get to the bottom of the stairs? Everybody wants to have, you know, luminous or frame or something that explains IT, but they didn't have that kind of technical of evidence. It's not a who done ted to me so much as what in the world .

happened here in this last trial. The thing that the prosecution offered, sort of as a theory, was the idea that there was some sort of fight between the two of them and the and falls down the stairs, uh, and the then Karen has to kind of make up her mind. And I gonna face a domestic violence charge, lose my job, lose the house, lose the child um or my only option is to accelerate this fight. IT is a murder as a laender cement for.

and said to me just years ago, sometimes you have to finish what you started and you ve got to Carry through. Now if this is all happening, I think it's split seconds. But that is the difficult except .

that there is absolutely nothing supporting that theory, except that the prosecution kind of offered IT.

Really, it's all speculation, you know. And there was an interesting thing that happened in the last round, josh, which was just september. It's a charge of first grade murder.

Now keep in mind, the homicide is a hands around the next strangulation. Prosecutors saying, this is her wife. She's a parameter and she's choking the life of about her for four minutes until she's did.

I mean that that's lots of you do accidentally.

And yet the jury came back with a lesser they bought a conviction of guilty on the charge of manslaughter. Ally, I think they just didn't know what .

to do with them. Yeah, I mean, the decision to retry now you ask prosecutors about that and they said in, in, in your interview with them, they said we were sort of spurred on by the family. The family, do you want to go again?

The family said, yes.

we do. I know, you know, I know that's not .

how IT works of right?

Prosecutors are not supposed to bring cases thinking like let's throw this fighting ti at the wall and see if it's sticks.

They don't, anna, go at the kitchen table at the victim's family and and see a show of hands of, tell us how many people want to go forward again. I mean, of course, if you have to be sensitive to them, because as they can be very painful out, right? Same parade of witnesses again, all the awful charges, all the awful stories told. But now I think this is the district atterley decided to go for IT. I thought .

probably the strongest parts of the prosecutors were the the phone void. You know, like you can see when he stops using the phone.

What you have to understand here is that the prosecution cases built on a timely and one end of the timeline book and is is is phone call that that the and makes you a relative IT goes the voice man I think is not answered. And twelve, twenty one, the phone usage stops. So this woman who is making thirty, forty, fifty calls a day and text messages is suddenly on radio silence.

great. Before one one P M. And then the medical examiner says one P M is, is his estimated time of death.

And that to me is a pretty good example, are of time of death and she's on the phone all the time and then suddenly she's not on the phone uh that that that would be if to me as a jury.

that's the start of the time line and then as as Carol will tell the police in interview latter SHE said, well, he was about three oclock, uh, answers to me. Look, i've got a night shift. Tony, do me favorite.

Take the child to the mall. Get out of my hair for a while. Let me get let me get a little tip here.

which is another part of the prosecution case, which raises the question, why is care of calling her?

You said you wanted to sleep. Why I got you. Onna, wake up now.

if he wants to sleep. Why are you calling at .

creating a digital alive by those calls that you just mentioned in going around them all with her debt ccd and buying this than the other thing trickett SHE doesn't need, but IT establishes that he's at them all store at five to one P M. I think that's important. Just join me in the weeds over that. McDonald, think that's a small bit .

of evidence that a the thing I think when presented story, which is this is the first really persuasive piece of evidence i've heard she's .

taken me out to the mall and instead of going to burker king, they go to mcDonald. So that doesn't really matter except that mcDonald has a bunch of of trash cans. Uh, it's pouring rain.

And the surveilLance video sees cara get out of the car in the rain. She's got a few rags and puts them in the farthest can. Now what is that about? I think I think a person that does that has some splinted to do what is going on with teaching the cleanup rag.

Those are things that if I were a jure in that case, I would be listening to very carefully.

And then there's a whole issue with the paychex, which is part of this time line. If SHE tumbled down the stairs, the paint can was not in reject or there was no way that he was going to spill IT. And yet there's paint on her, a lot of wet paint on the floor, some of the paint destroyed and some is not.

So in one trial, they brought in a paint expert, a guy who literally watches paint dry, and he says, in my experience, what what i'm seeing here, this should be wet, this part to be dry. And yet, you know, meanwhile, the body is cooling down, and rigor morus is setting in the body is knowing the scientific question. This probably happened around one o'clock, and yet the paint seems to be went later then that should be so something, things that out of wacker.

Okay, i've got a couple of questions about the paint guy. First of all, i'm gonna ound snarky here as if i'm on date with date line podcast and not the talking date line podcast. So sume but um that guy needs to spend every penny of the expert witness money that he's getting on a Better suit because that one has seen Better days uh well.

as you know, he becomes the problem in that case because the testimony was thrown out an appeal. They said he was out of the sky. He didn't have the experience to testify what he testify do and I I think expert witnesses brought into clarify things for jury to in holds in the story, right? And this pain expert didn't do that.

What you really want the pain expert to say is what it's doing there in the first place on the body. And he can do that. He can sort of tell you quickly, dry or doesn't dry, but IT didn't clean up the story at all.

That's one of the things that the prosecution sort of didn't do. If care is guilty, if SHE is involved here, what's the point of the paint? You're pouring the pain over the britt because what then you think that mean? You think that SHE, uh, the little obscure evidence of strangulation?

I mean, there a couple DNA other's life.

You're not to hide anything with paint. So what? What's the idea?

Dateline armchair detectives, this is for you guys to figure out, because I totally didn't get why IT was or when that happened on that timely.

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Here's an interesting thing. Prosecuted often say about juries when they start thinking about what's possible is when you get quintals. And when you start getting to think about what's likely, you get a conviction.

So you know, one of the message is the prosecutors tend to put out sort of at least implicit, if not explicit, is, I mean, look, who else was this gna be? Who else would do IT theyd had fights before they're been? Domestic violence was in the background of the story, the way it's in so many deadline stories.

So if it's not her than who else says IT, well, in this case there were a couple of mother. I mean, I know suspects is the right word because each of them had some some kind of alibi, but there were at least somebody that police could have looked at as possibly being involved in this. So is, let's talk about them a little bit.

There was a performer, romantic interest. That woman was a police officer. He was in and out of man's life and there were money issues and uh, some jealousy. And, you know, put that in a shaker with ice, and you could easily explain a fairly legal story.

This would not be the first time that is jilted ex and that are committing a murder, as we know, from watching, tainting. I presume that there was nothing from the x lover to and saying, you know, you'll pay for this, you'll be sorry. I mean, because anything remotely threatening or you know stocking or repeated calling that would have come in.

I can't get that story to fool up either.

I just don't yeah, I think that feels like there really wasn't anything .

and he was that out, he said at the gym and there was the security and there .

was some video of leaving the gym and even though there was a even though there's that eighty mrc y of her you know not too terribly far away. Uh so now, uh the other parameter mark yeah um are you able to tell what's going on there? I mean, was he having a relationship with him to what was going on there?

I think that was to something going on a tie with a text time. And I certainly was fluttering stuff. But is that a is that is IT woo stuff?

I don't think so. I don't see him making a move on her, especially she's with a baby in the house. I don't know. I I just can't see that narration working.

yeah. And like, okay, let's say something is going on there. He's gonna kill her. why?

But you have to get that person in the timeline againe josh, if she's so she's having lunch with the baby and they're going to the mall. When do you get that? The unknown person from the bus station who was walked up the hill and and killed or you know the parameter or the from the former, the police officer friend him. How do you get them in the house to do what they do? Carrer puts herself in the house as he tells the police.

And there's no I witney testimony anywhere that anybody else, any neighbor or any passer by or anybody saw some unknown person at the property or casing IT or walk. And by looking to know that there's just nothing like that.

what I call the one of man and only stories.

you know there's just not right and that gets you back to what prosecutors want juries to think, which is, well, if it's not her, then who else could I possibly be and theyd had problems before. That's that's that's the way prosecutors want you to think. Um I have to command um you and your production team here who I believe to be the the wonderful to simpson um so I ve got a couple of stories uh because getting that piece of audio from the judge saying if you two don't stop this， essentially i'm calling the department of children and family services and you can tell how sort of at the end of his rope the judge is which gives you a little window into and and cars is relationship that you otherwise that's a great thing to have is that little piece of audio that's true and good .

on so for doing and I am getting a scalding from the bench. And the issue is the thing that joins them is the baby, briana. They both love the child and they they both want to have they've actually filed for divorce and that we're restraining orders, everything else. And at the heart of all that stuff seemed to be the child and you yet to all these character witness who said, I saw them come by the Sandy service, and they were radiant from their vacation on the cruise ship, and the everything looked fine. The parameter, the meal is not telling any stories about and reporting a huge fight in the previous forty eight hours is is none of that kind stuff right?

Was was marked the parameter that he said, I I can't imagine cr doing IT or did he say I was.

you know, I think he got in a jam. M, because he had a slightly not candid story about what he was doing that day, and then he untwisted that story. But once you lie to a cop, cops don't like to be lied to.

You know, josh, what happens? I mean, there you moving up that pad of people of interest very quickly at that point. So he guy called in a jam in the story. And then that's how we stayed in IT for a long time. But in the end, he was not a suspect for them.

No, he was not. And neither was the, neither was the x you i'm .

struck all these years later, how little of interest is that? This is the same sex couple marriage. Uh, IT was news in two thousand and ten, couple ghosts of the course, and he gets married. The same sex aspect of this, to me, totally falls out of the story.

Yeah, this is a couple that we the kind of couple that we cover all the time. And there sometimes they're happens and they're not happy. And you know, one of the things that the defense said was you these people were together a long time and you're looking at only the brief period of time that they were strange, but the rest of that time they were going on fine.

And let's lots of couples goes through periods in which they are not getting on some people separate and then get back together. Um and it's not it's not an indicator that once gona murder the other uh one of the things that I was was struck by was the the shop aholic anio oh yeah so he gets access or mark gives an access. This is credit SHE runs up a seven thousand doll bill. Who does that? Who does that on her friends?

Go to me. That's not couch change.

know. I mean, come on. I mean, I wouldn't charge seven hundred dollars on a friends card unless we'd like specifically agreed to IT or something like that.

The police officer, the end and out of fair that she'd had, uh, she's also getting charges run up on her car. So I think it's part of the mix. You know, how does money fit into this thing? Jealous y anger, resentment, money. A very bad moment at the top of the stairs. You know, you can make your own script like this.

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Um so so here's a new thing that we're trying on talking date line. I'm not supposed to call if you were male, but my feeling is that was good enough. David is not for me always say watch a and we're going to prove that, uh, we are watching with you and sometimes you have questions and so we're going to try and and for new answers.

The first one is from someone named to ban in los Angeles and he rides the gift card you gave me, doesn't have any money on a you son of, oh, that's a text that's not your male. Ry, um I got ta wrong um and seems like a lot of work and was very emotional says to me masi, who writes us a lot on twitter. I wonder if cara planned this. There was a crime of passion. If you believe that camera is in fact guilty， what you think i'm plan or plant?

Well, I think and was certainly the fires crack of the two. He loved to have the mister mike in her hand, and SHE had a play list for her own cariole SHE loved the attention and he was a Sparkle. Krell was not by all accounts.

Does that mean that he is more likely to put on smokers and come up with the dvs plan to get rid of her wife? I I don't think so. I don't think that works out.

Uh, this thing seems I don't think anybody woke up that morning and said, this is the day that and is gonna die. You know, this is something, in my mind, speculation. Something happened that was triggered at the top of the stairs there. And I don't know what IT was and neither does the prosecution.

Here's a question from math. Are the jurors allowed to know about the previous hung juries? Uh, and I think the answer to that is that they're not no.

not my experience that I can't be aware of any of the facts. It's only what's presented to them in the in the courtroom.

Here is one from Terry, and he says that I miss something. Maybe he just fell down the stairs. I mean, is that is that possible?

SHE said, I did that. I fell on the there. Yes, terra, you did fall down the stairs, but you didn't have to regulation Marks on your throat.

And they plod that out if they theorized, well, let's see if somebody's up at the top of the landing here and they take a miss up, what happens? Bump, bump to bump. They learned that they would not hit the pank in.

So IT doesn't count for the pink in. The paint is a confusing factor. Uh.

the paint being a confusing factor is is perfect for this. Next question is from paul robby, who is a friend of mine and a big deadline viewer and I think doesn't miss an and her question is a pretty good one. Um is paint drawing junk science? I mean, paint does dry. Uh, so what is you know does that qualify as junk science? I'm thinking the prosecutor would argue now um others might argue differently.

Well, are there scholarly journals that you can point to? And I think the problem here was the credentials of the particular paint experts they had. He was a very well qualified engineer, but they decided that he could not have a legal opinion for this jury about what happened with the paint and help quickly added ed.

here's a question that I think we can both answer from. I am maria M Y R A J. Um I can't wait to see a date line show that starts with they were evil, mean people that no one like who could have killed them and then exposed all the dirt okay, so i'm onna refer you to a show that you a day line episode that you can watch on p cock and it's called stone cold.

I did that story in two thousand a few years ago. Here's the thing about that. That was a guy who did not line up on the victim in that case, but his girlfriend certainly liked him, and his brother really liked him. We interviewed to do and them, but many other people had a problem with this guy. So h sometimes as we do stories like that, you've probably done stories like that, which the personal wasn't popular.

There's there's not all the man or women of the year, but if you want to see an episode of day, land is only three minutes long. No, I suppose that would be the ingredient.

All right, before we go, I want to say that if you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, you should call the national domestic violence hotline at one eight hundred seven, nine, nine, seven, two, three, three, or you can text, start S T A R T to 8， eight, seven, eight, eight, or you can visit W W W, the hot line T O R G. Denis burpy, thank you for joining us. The episode is down the basement .

stairs charge. Thanks to you and good holidays to human friend.

Couple of things before we go. We found another case that had four trials that was a key episode called the house on the lake. And I was coincidentally also produced by sue simpson.

You can find out on peak oxides. And twenty five, episode twelve, and my episode that I mentioned, stoned cold, that can also be found on peacock season twenty seven, episode thirteen. And if you ever have a question you want to answered, you can reach us on social at dateline nbc or hashtag dateline. Meanwhile, i'll see you friday is on abc.

Hey, i'm your shahid, and i'm the host of the optimistic project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia and more to uncover what inspires them to create a Better tomorrow.

Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the optimist project wherever you get your podcast. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.