Dr. Lex Fridman: Navigating Conflict, Finding Purpose & Maintaining Drive
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew huberman and i'm a professor of neutral logy and optimize gy at stanford school of medicine. Today my guest is doctor lex freedmen. Doctor lex freedman is an expert in electrical and computer engineering, artificial intelligence and robotics.

He is also the host of the lex fridman podcast, which initially started as a podcast focus on technology and science of various kinds, including computer science and physics, but rapidly evolved to include guess and other topics as a matter of focus, including sport. For instance, doctor lex freeman is a black bell in brazil jujitsu, and he said, numerous guests on who come from the fields of brazil judge to both from the coaching side and from the competitor side. He also has shown an active interest in topics such as chess and essentially anything that involves intense activation, engagement of the mind and or body.

In fact, the next room in podcast has evolved to take on very difficult topics such as mental health. He's at very psychiatrists and other guest song that relate to mental health and mental illness, as well as guest focused on geopolitics and some of the more controversial issues that face our times. He's had comedians, he's had scientists. He's had friends. He's had enemies.

On his podcast, lex, as a phenomenal, I would say, a one in an eight billion ability to find these people, make them comfortable, and in that comfort, both try to understand them and to confront them and to push them, so that we all learn, all of which is to say that lex freemen is no longer just and accomplish scientist. He certainly is that. But he has also become one of the more preeminent thought leaders on the planet.

And if there's anything that really captures the essence of lex freedman, it's his love of learning, his desire to share with us the human experience and to brought in that experience so that we all may benefit in many ways. Our discussion during today's episode captures the many facets of lex freedman. Although no conversation, of course, could capture them all, we sit down to the conversation just days after lex return from ukraine, where he deliberately placed himself into the tension of that environment in order to understand the geopolitics of the region and to understand exactly what was happening at the level of the ground and the people there.

You may notice that he Carries quite a lot of both emotion and knowledge and understanding. And yet, in a very classic like freeman way, you'll notice that he's able to zoom out of his own experience around any number of different topics and view them through a variety of lenses, so that, first of all, everyone feel included, but most of all, so that everyone learned something new. That is, to gain new perspective.

Our discussion also ventures into the waters of social media and how that landscape is changing, the way that science and technology are communicated. We also get into the topics of motivation, drive and purpose with finding IT and executing on that drive and purpose. I should mention that this is episode one hundred of the huberman lab podcast, and I would be remiss if I did not tell you that there would be no human um in lab podcast.

Where are not for lex freeman? I was a fan of the next freeman podcast long before I was ever invited on to the podcast as a guest. And after our first recording lex was the one that suggested that I start a podcast. He only gave me two pieces of advice. The first piece of advice was start a podcast.

And the second piece of advice was that I not just make IT me blaming in to the microphone and staring at the camera, so I can safely say that I at least followed half of his advice and that I am ever grateful for relax, both as a friend, a colleague in science and now fellow pod caster, for making the suggestion that we start this podcast. I already mentioned a few of the topics covered on today's podcast, but I can assure you that there is far more to the person that many of us know as lex freedmen. If you are somebody interested in artificial intelligence, engineering or robotics, today's discussion is most certainly for you.

And if you are not, but you are somebody who's interested in world politics, and more importantly, the human experience, both the individual and the collective human experience, like shares what can only be described as incredible insights into what he used as the human experience and what is optimal in order to derry from our time on this planet. Before you begin, i'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and researchers at stanford. IT is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that team, i'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element. Element is an electro light drink with everything you need and nothing you don't.

That means plenty of salt magnesium in peason, the so called electronic and no sugar. Now, salt magnesium, and are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons. In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electroliers ts need to be present in the proper ratios.

And we now know that even slight reductions in electronic light concentrations or dehydration of the body lead to deficits and cognitive and physical performance. Element contains a science back electorate ratio of one thousand milligrams that one gram of sodium, two hundred milligrams of paci um and sixty milligrams of magnesium. I typically drink element first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrates my body and make sure I have enough electrical lites.

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if i've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drink element that's element t dot com slash huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase. Again, that drink element, element dot com slash huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up.

Waking up as a meditation APP include hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga eja, recessions and n sdr non sleep depressed protocols. I started using the waking up up a few years ago, even though i've been doing regular meditation since my teens. And I started doing yoga eja about a decade ago.

My dad mentioned to me that he had found an APP, turned out to be the waking up APP, which could teach you meditations of different durations. And they had a lot of different types of meditations to place, to bring your body into different states, and that he liked IT very much. So I gave the waking up up a try.

And I too found IT to be extremely useful, because sometimes I only have few minutes to meditate, other times have longer to meditate. And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain body into lots of different kinds of states, depending on which meditation I do. I also love that the waking up up has lots of different types of yoga media sessions.

Those who you don't know, yogananda is a process of lying still, but keeping an active mind is very different than most meditations. And there is excEllent scientific data to show that yogananda, and something similar to IT called non sleep deep breath or n sdr, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy even, which is to a short ten minute session. If you'd like to try the waking up, you can go to waking up dot com slash huberman and access a free thirty day trial. Again, that's waking up dot com slash huberman to access a free thirty day trial. And now for my discussion with doctor lex freeman, welcome back.

It's good to be back in a bedroom. This feels like a porn set. I apologize to open that way. I've never been in a point set, so I should admit this.

Our studios has been renovated. So here we are for the monumental recording of episode one hundred, one hundred of the human life podcast, which was inspired by the lex driven podcast. Some people already know the story, but I repeated again.

For those that don't, there would not be a huberman lab. Guests were not for like freeman because after recording as a guest on his podcast a few years ago, he made the suggestion that I started a podcast and he explaining me how IT works. And he said, you should start a podcast, but just make sure that it's not you loving the whole time. Andrew and I only sort of follow the advice.

Yeah, well, you surprised, surprised me. You surprised the world that you're able to talk for hours and site some of the best signs going on and be able to give people advice without any interruptions or edit or any of that. I mean, that takes an incredible amount of skill that you probably born with.

And some of IT is developed. I mean, the whole science community is as badly of man. Stanford is proud of you. So yeah, it's a beautiful thing. This is really surprising because it's unclear how a scientist can do a great parcs that's not just shooting the show about random stuff, but really is giving very structured good advice that boiling down the state art science into something that's actually useful for people. So that I was impressive.

The cold shit, he actually pulled this off and doing IT every week on a different topic that I mean, you know i'm usually positive, especially for people allow in support. But damn, I thought there's no ways to be able to pull this week after week been only getting Better and Better and Better at a whole rent and recent podcast I forget with who of how awesome you are with a runne l colui. She's emotion recognition person, A I person and then he didn't know who you were and I was like, the hell me your in age when the whole world to how awesome here as well.

I'm very gratified to hear this is a little uncomfortable for me to here. But listen, i'm i'm just really happy if people are getting information they like and make actionable. And I was inspired by you and look right back at you.

I I followed a number of your structural formats, a tire. I don't wear a tie. I'm constant reminded about this by my father who says, saw my podcast.

He was like, why don't you dress properly like your friend lax? He literally said that and the debate that goes back and forth. But nonetheless.

how does he feel? Episode one hundred, and how does he feel? Imagine your year here, you hear, after so many episodes done so much. I mean, the number of hours, what is just insane, the amount of passion, the amount of work you put into this, what's feel .

like IT feels great um and IT feels very much like the that horizon is still at the same distance in front of me. You know every episode I just. Get information there in the process that we talk about in your podcast.

We won't go into IT of um collecting information is stealing IT down to some simple now it's walking around listen to music, trying to you figure out what the motifs are and then as just like you I don't use a teleprompter anything like that there's a very minimal note so feels great and I love IT and again, i'm just grateful to you for inspiring and I just wants to keep going and do more of IT and I should say I am also relieved that we're sitting here because you recently went overseas to very intense war zone, literally the ukraine and entire time that you were there and I was genuinely concerned um you know the world's a unpredictable place in general and we don't always get the only vote and what happens us so first all welcome back safely, one piece, one alive, peace. And what was that like? I mean, at a broad level, at a specific level, what drew you there? What surprised you? And how do you think IT changed you in coming back here?

Think there's a lot to say. But first, IT is really good to be back. One of the things that when you go to a difficile part of the world, or a part of the world is going to something difficult.

You really appreciate how grade is to be an american, everything, the easy access to food despite what people think, the stable, reliable rule of law, the lack of corruption in that. You can trust that if you start a business or if you take on various pursuits in life, that there's not going to be at scale, manipulation of your efforts such that you can succeed. So this kind of, you know, capitalism is in its the ideal of capitalism is really still burning brightness country. And that really makes you appreciate those aspects and also just the ability to have a home for generations, a across generations, so you can have your grandfather live in, can tucky in a certain city, his children lived there and you live there and and you you just continues on and on. That's the kind of thing you can have when you don't have more because war destroys entire communities and destroys histories, generations, like life stories that stretch across the generations.

Yeah, didn't think about that until you said just now. But photographs, hard drives get destroyed or just abandon right libraries. I mean, now these things exist in the cloud, but there are still a lot of material goods that have, you know, are irreplacable.

right? Well, even, you know, in rural parts of the united states that don't exist. The cloud, right? A lot of people still, well, even in towns, they still love the physical photo album of your family. A lot of people still store their photographs of families and to the V H.

Tapes and all that kind of stuff yet, but I think there's so many things i've learned and really felt the lessons, one of which is nobody gives a damn when your photos are gone and all that kind of stuff, your house is gone. The thing time and time again I saw for people that lost everything is how happy they are for the people they love, the the friends, the family that are still alive. That's the only thing they talk about that in fact, they don't mention actually with much dramatic sort of vigor about the trauma losing your home.

They're just none. Stop saying how lucky they are. That person x person is still here. And that makes you realize that when you lose, everything is still makes you realize what really matters, which is the people in your life.

And a lot of people kind of realize that later in life, when you're face in mortality, when you're face in your death, or you know, you get a cancer diagnosis, that kind of stuff. I think people here in america, in california with fires, you can still lose your home. You realized like, no, he doesn't really matter.

It's a pain the ass. But what managers are so the the family, the people on so on, I I think the most intense thing I talk to several hundred people, some of which is recorded, have really been struggling to put that out because I have to edit myself. And so you're talking about thirty, forty hours of footage.

And this is a difficult, I talked .

a lot of politicians, the two in the country. I'll be back there to talk to the president to do a three hour conversation. Those are easy to IT.

You know, there the really heart felt and thoughtful folks from from different perspectives on the geopolitics of the war. But the ones that really hard to edit is like grandma's that are like in the middle of nowhere, they lost everything. They still have hope, they still have love, and some of them have some of them, many of them, unfortunately, have not hate in their heart.

So in february, when a russian invited ukraine, this is the thing I realized, ed, about war. One of the most painful lessons is that where create generation hate, you know, we sometimes think about wars, a thing that kills people, kill civilians, kill soldiers, takes away like inger's people. But we don't directly think about the the secondary interior effects of that which last decades, which is anyone who's lost the father or mother or daughter or son.

They now hate the not just the individual soldiers of the leaders that invaded their country, but the entirety ty of the people. So it's not that they hate lampoon nor hate the russian military. They hate russian people.

So that tears the fabric of a thing that for me, you know, my, have my families from ukraine, half my families from russia. But there's A, I remember the pain. The trial for world war two still resonates through my entire family tree.

And so you remember when the russians in ukrainian is far together against the nazi invasion, you, you remember a lot of that. Not to see the fabric of these people's torn apart completely with hate is very, really, really difficult for me, just to realize that things will just never be the same on this particular cultural historical aspects. But also, there are so many painful ways in which things will never be the same, which as we've seen that is possible to have major hot war in the twenty first century.

I think a lot of people are watching this. China is watching this. India watching, united states watching and thinking, we can actually have a large scale war. And I think the lessons learned from that might be the kind that lead to a major world war three in the twenty first century. So like one of the things I realized watching the whole scene is that we don't know what about what's onna happen in the twenty for a century and that might we can have the institution like surely it's not another world.

Just coast.

yeah yeah yeah pendel c yeah Normal.

Bx.

that but you have to remember at the end of world or one, you know, as would your wasson called the the war and all wars, nobody in the, ironically, in a dark way IT was also the the were in twice when people believe this, they will never be another world war. And twenty years after that, the the rise is not in germany, the a charismatics leader that captivated the minds of millions and built up by military that can take on the the whole world.

And so IT makes you realized that this is not possible. This is not possible. And the the tension you you see the this the media machine, the propaganda machine that i've gone to see every aspect of, it's still feeling the division between amErica and china, between russia in india and the africa has a complicated thing, is trying to figure out who are they with, who they games.

And just this tension is building and building, and that you makes you realize, like wem my, the thing that might shake human civilization may not be so far off that that's a realization. You get to really feel I media all kinds of other lessons in, one of which is propaganda, is I got to I get a lot of letters, emails and a some of them are full of really intense language, full of hate from every side toward me. Well, the haters towards me as representing side x and extends as variable for every side.

So either almost a, or am a putin show or am a nato show or am an american amErica show, american empire show or I am a democrat, republican, because it's already been in this country politicize. I think there's a sense of ukraine is this place that's full of corruption, why we're sending money there. I think that kind of the messaging on the on the republican side, on the democratic side, i'm not even keeping a track of the actual messaging and the conspiracy theories and and the natus, but they are the tension is there and I get to feel IT directly.

And when you get to really experiences, there's a large number of narratives that all are extremely confident themselves that they know the truth. People are convinced, first of all, that than not being lie to people in russia think there's no propaganda. They think that, yes, yes, there is a state sponsor propaganda overall, smart enough to ignore the the, a, the sort of lane propaganda that's everywhere they know.

We can think on our own. We know the truth. And everybody kind of speaks in this way.

Every in the united states says, well, yes, this may stream media. They are full of messaging and propaganda. But we were smart.

We can think on our own. Of course, we see through that. Every everybody says this. And then the conclusion of their thought is often hatred towards some group.

What of that group is? And the more you've lost, the more intense the feeling of hair. It's a really difficult. Field to walk through calmly and with an open minded and try to understand what's really going on.

So it's super intense that the only words that come to mind, as I hear you mention something that IT seems that hate generalizes. You know it's against an entire group or an entire country. Why do you think IT? Is that hate generalizes? And that love may or may not generalize?

I had so one of the as you can imagine, the kind of question I asked is, do you have. Love or hate in your heart, the question I asked almost everybody, and then I will dig in to this exact question they are asking. I think some of the most beautiful things i've heard, which is people that are full of hate, are able to self introspect the body.

They know they shouldn't feel IT, but they can help. But that's not. They know that ultimately, the thing that helps them IT helps everyone is to feel love for fellow man.

But there they've they can help IT. They know it's like a drug. They say like hate escalates. It's A A vicious spiral. You just can help IT.

And the question I also asked this, you think you'll ever be able to forgive russia? And after much thought, almost it's it's split. But most people will say, no, I will never be able to forgive.

And because of the generalization you talked about earlier, that could .

even include all right, because if you do nothing that's as bad or worse, then um then then being part of the army that invades. So the the people that are just sitting that the good germans, the people they are just quietly going on with their lives, you're just as bad, if not worse, is their perspective.

Earlier you said that going over to the ukraine is now allowed you to realize just so many of the positives of being here in the united states. Have a good friend. We both know my own name, my name, but we ve communicate three of us from tear.

One special Operations. He spent years doing deployments, really amazing individual. And I remember when the pandemic hit, he said on a text thread, americans aren't used to the government interfering with their plans around the world.

Many people are familiar with governments dramatically interfering with their plans sometimes. But even in a seemingly random way here, we were not raced for that. There are there, we get speeding tickets and there's, you know, lines to vote and things like that. But I think the pandemic was one of the first time, at least in my life, I remember where IT really seem like the government was impeding what people naturally wanted to do. And that was a shock for people here.

And I have um what might seem like a somewhat mondaine question, but is something that I saw social media lot of people asking me to ask you and and I was curious about two um what was a typical day like over there? Were you slept in a bed? Where are you sleeping on the ground? Everyone seems wants to know, what were you eating? Are you eating on today? Were you eating your stake or you were you in fairly deprived conditions over there?

I saw a couple photos that you posted with out of doors in front of rubber with pit helmet. On one case, you know what? What was a difficile day like .

over there? So there's there's two modes. One of them I spend a lot of time in key, which is. Much safer than they may be obvious to stay before people who don't know it's in the middle of the country and as much safer than the actual front that the word the battle is happening so much, much safer than kiev even is levive, which is the western part of the country.

So the time I spent a key of were fundamentally different in the time I spent at the front and I went to the heron region, which is where a lot of really heat battles happening. There's several areas of his. It's the north of the country and then there's the best region is east of the country and then there's her on region, which but i'm not good at geography so uh, is the south east for the country that's where at least when I was, there was a lot of really heated fighting happening. So when I was in the hersant region, there's, you know, it's what you would imagine, the place I said, the hotel where all the lies have to stay off for the entire town, all the lights are off, have to kind of navigate the darkness, and the user fAllen to shine on. This is terrible .

for the circadian system.

Yeah, that's exactly this. How can I do this? Where's my element in the flood Greens? How can I function? No, there's um I think I was baLanced by the deep appreciation of being alive.

right? I mean, this is the reason I ask this the reason I ask is we get used to all these creature comforts and um we don't need them, but we often come to depend on them in a way that makes us feel .

like we need them yeah but very quickly there's something about the intensity of life that you seen people's ice because they living through war that makes you forget all those which are comforts. And was actually, you know, i'm somebody that who hates traveling and so I love the creature habits I love. I love a the comfort of the ritual, right? But all of that was forgotten very quickly, just the intensity of feeling, the intensity of love.

The people have each other. That was, that was obvious in terms of food. So there's a curfew.

So depends on what part of the country. But usually you basically have to scala home, like nine P M. So the hard curfew in a lot of places is eleven P M night. But by then you like you have to be home. So in some places is ten.

So at nine P M you start going on, which for me was was kind of wonderful also because I get to spend, I get to be forced to spend time alone and think for many hours in the whatever i'm staying, which which is really nice. And every disagreements and the quiet ness to the whole thing in terms of food, once a day, just the food is incredible, cheap and incredible, delicious people. Still, one of the things they can still take pride in is making the best partial food they can.

So meat, but they do admire american meat. So the meat is not as great as I could be in that country, but I borrow you everyday. You know, that kind of stuff mostly meet.

So spend the entire day, wake up in the morning with coffee, spend the entire day talking to people, which for me is very difficult because of the intensity. The story is one after the other, after the other, which just talk to regular people, talk to soldiers, talk to politicians. All kinds of soldiers are talk to people. There were doing rescue missions of americans. Hang hung out with the tim Kennedy.

I'm great tim Kennedy.

The great tim Kennedy, who also human many others reveal to me one of the many reasons i'm proud to be in amErica is how um trained and skilled and effective american soldiers are.

And I guess repeater for listeners this podcast may we should familiarize them with tim candidate .

is because I realize that a of how .

do you try to summarize them right in, uh, let's we can be accurate, but not exhaustive, as well as any good a good data or accurate but not exhAusting. Very skilled and accomplish and a fighter, very skilled and accomplish former special Operations number american patriot h podcast or two, right? Does he have his own podcast?

Maybe .

maybe we know any stuff .

is yeah .

amazing. Clearing hot pot get with any.

but also tim candies like the ebola ment of amErica into the the most beautiful in the most ridiculous degree. So he's like, would you imagine, what is the team amErica that like? I just imagine him like shirtless on a tank, rolling into enemy territory, just screaming at the top .

of that. He really.

what is that? Now some of that just his personality and humor. I'd like to sort of comment on the humor of things, not just with him is a very one other interesting thing i've learned, but are also when he's actually helping people. He's extremely good at what he does, which is building teams that rescue that go into the most dangerous areas of ukraine, dangerous areas anywhere else, and they get the job done.

And like one of the things that heard time and time again, which it's really interesting to me, that ukrainian soldiers said that, you know, comparing ukrainian, russian and american soldiers, american soldiers are the bravest, which was very interesting for me to hear, given how high them are, allies for the ukraine, an soldiers. But that just reveals that training enables you to be brave. So it's not just about how well train they are and so on, is how intense and ferocious they are in the fighting.

And IT makes you realize, like this is american army, not just to the technology, especially the especial force, guys. This though, is one of the most effective and terrifying armies in the world. And i'm listen, just for context. I'm somebody who is, for the most part, anti war, a passive st.

But you get the sea um you know some of the realities of work kind of wake you up to what needs to get done to protect a sovereignty, to protect some of the values, to protect civilians in homes and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes war has to happen. And I shall also mention the russian side because, well, I haven't got to experience the russian side yet.

I do fully plan to travel to russia. As i've told everybody, I was very upfront with everybody about this. I I would like to hear the story of russians, but I do know from the ukrainian side, like the grandma's, I love grandma's, they told me stories that the russians, really, the ones that entered their villages, they really, really believe they're saving ukraine from native, from naughty occupation.

So they feel that there's the the ukraine is under control of, not the organizations. And there they believe they're saving in the country. That's the brothers and sisters.

So I think I think propaganda and I think. Truth is a very difficult to ride in in the war zone. I think in the twenty four century one, I think you realized that so much of war, even more so than in the past, is an information war.

And people that just use twitter for their source of information might be surprised to know how much misinformation there is on twitter, like real um narrow as being sold. And so is really hard to know who to believe. And through all that you have to try to keep an open mind and ultimately ignore the powerful and listen to actual citizens, actual people.

That the other may be obvious lesson is that. Wars waged by powerful, rich people and is the poor people that suffer. And that's just visible time and time again.

You mentioned the fact that people still enjoy food or the pleasure cooking, or there's occasion humor, or maybe frequent humor. No, joko willing is talk about this in warfare and the that the all the elements of the human spirit in conditions still emerge at various times find this amazing and you I have had conversations about this before but the the appetite of the mind you um you know classic story that comes to mind is you the one of Victor Frankl or elson mandela know you put somebody into a small box of confinement and some people break under those conditions and other people find entire stories within a centimetre of concrete that can you know occupy them and and real stories and richness, or humor, or love, or fascination and surprise.

And I find this so interesting that the mind is so adaptable, you know, we talked about creatures comforts and the lack of creature comforts and the way that we can adapt. And yet humans are always striving. IT seems, or one would hope for these Better conditions to Better their conditions. So as you've come back and you've been here now back in the in the states for how long after your trip depends .

on this park has release. But I felt like i've never less so, practically speaking, of a couple months.

Yeah, we won't be shower recording this bit september. So we .

actually recorded this several years ago.

so weren't discipline in the future. We're simulation you too. I'm still trying to figure out what that actually means. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic Greens since two thousand and twelve, so i'm delighted that you're sponsoring the podcast.

The reason I started taking athletic Greens, in the reason I still take out the Greens once or usually twice a day, is that IT gets to be the probiotics that I need for good health. Our god is very important, is populated by got microbiome that communicate with the brain, the immunity stem and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics and athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiology alth.

In addition, athletic Greens contains a number of adaptations, vitamin minerals, that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and IT tastes great. If you would like to try athletic Greens, you can go to athletic Greens dot com, slash huberman and theyll give you five free travel packs that make IT really easy to mix up athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, at sea, and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin d three k two. Again, that's athletic Green dot.

Come slash human men to get the five travel packs in the year supply of vitamin three k two. I know I speak for many people, and I say that we are very happy that you're back. We know that's not going to be the first and last trip, that there will be others um and that you'll be going to russia as well and and presumably other places as well in order to explore.

And I have to say as a pod casters and as your friend, I was really inspired the yet your sense of adventure um and your sense of not just adventure but thoughtful, respectful adventure. You understood what you were doing. You weren't just going there to get some more time footage or something. This wasn't a kick where a thrill this was really serious and remain serious. Um so thank you for doing IT and um please h next time you go bring tim Kennedy again and I feel like tim can gets you to will .

take a because he really loves going to the most dangerous places and helping people saw I think you will get me to more troubling is worth and I should have mention that I mean, there's many reasons I went, but definitely not something I take lightly or want to do again. I'm doing things that I don't want to do. I just feel like I have to you compelled.

So I don't think there's now i'll definitely talk about IT as we all showed different areas of the world that are seeing a lot of suffering. Yemen, there's so many atrocities going on the world today, but this one is just uh, personal to me. So I want to I feel I am qualified just because of the language.

So most of the talking, by the way, I think I was doing IT IT was in russian. And so because of the language, because of the my history, I felt I had to do this particular thing. I think it's many ways, stupid and dangerous, and that was made clear to me.

But I do many things of this nature because the hearts says, polls post told that. But also, there's a, there's a freedom to not you know, i'm afraid of death, but I think there's a freedom to a almost like, okay, if I die, I want to take full advantage of not having a family. Currently, I feel like when you have a family, there's a responsibility for others so you immediately become more conservative than careful. I feel like I want to take full advantage of this particular moment of my life when you can be a little bit more accepting of risk.

And so you should definitely reproduce at some point um maybe before next time you should just free some sperm.

Um really thing is that we do with eyes path. Is I how that works?

You know it's interesting. Here's there's always an science protocols. You know there are products on the internet and there are actually a few decent manuscripts looking at how cold exposure can increase testosterone levels.

But IT doesn't happen by the cold directly. A good scientists, as the authors of those papers, where in r realized that it's the VISA construction and then the VISA dilation. You know, as as people warm up again, there's increased blood flow to the testers.

And in women, that seems there probably creed blood flow to the reproductive organs as well after people warm back up. So that seems to cause some sort of hyper nourishment of the the various cells, the service and light cells of the tests that lead to increase output of distortion and in women, testosterone as well. So the cold exposure in any case um is obviously, do you .

do the ice bath? The nice thing to have fun with, everyone's in a while to warm up. No, I haven't done been kind of waiting. Maybe do IT together with the year some point we haven't died ah I want here .

IT week straight forward for you. I always say general comes in waves. And so if you just think about IT walls like you're going through a number of walls of a gentleman as a business, going for time becomes rather trivial with the egg. Two background of one immediately recognized the physiological sensation, even though it's cold. Specifically it's the adrenal and that makes you want to .

hop out of the thing. And you've seen joes, so joe set up a really nice man cave, or his name in a cave, because it's so big. It's like a network of man caves. But he has a iced baath, and I sona next each other. So we have one .

of those here, baths on. So we have to get you in IT when one of these days, maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow. No, though there is A I don't know the underlying physiological basis, but there does seem to be a trend toward truth telling in the sona.

Some people refer to them as truth barrels, minds, a barrow sona shape like a barrel. Who knows why? Maybe under intense heat arrests, people just feel compelled to share that .

I have a complicated relationship personas because of all the way cutting some some of the deepest suffering and interrupt i've done was assa. That's it's I mean, i've gone to some dark places and sa cause I rushed my whole of judo and those way cuts can really test the mind. So your truth telling, yeah, the certain kind of truth telling because you're sitting there and the clock moves slower than IT has ever moved in your life yeah.

So I usually, for the most part, I would try to, you know, have a bunch of sweat garbage bags now that kind of stuff and run. It's easier because you can distract the mind in the sona. You can distract the mind as just you, and all the excuses and all the all the weaknesses in your mind is coming to the surface and you are just sitting there. Sweare not sweating. That's the worst.

And tag web visual after you're in a small box. So IT also inspires some clopton bia, even if you're not close strophe. Bic, um that's absolutely true.

And the desire to just get out of the thing is where the you GTA pretty serious, the gentleman search from from in the song as well IT. Now the song actually will IT won't deplete testoon, but IT kills sperm. So for people that mr. Sixty days perm cycle. So if you're trying to donate burner because that's we've got us onto this or fertilize um an egg or eggs in whatever format disher in vivo as we say in science, that which means a well, you can look IT up folks at the sixty days firm cycle. So if you go into a really hot sona um or a hot baths or a hot tub years in sixty days, as those sperm going to be a significantly greater portion that will be dead, will be not viable. So there's a simple solution that people just put ice back down there or you know a jar, not this jar, but a jar of cold fluid, know between the legs and just sit there and or they go back and forth between the ice bath and sa yeah you probably if you're going to go back over there um you should reach sperm um we're going to do a couple episodes on fertility when it's real tiv inexpensive and your Young who should provide you in now because there is a um association with autism is um males get older.

It's not a strong one at a no but you know men can .

can see heve healthy children and considerable age, but in any case, but no, they don't get wiser. What IT happens is interesting age stake. But it's a little bit like like the the maturation of the brain in the sense that some of this firm get much Better swimming, then many of them get less good mortality. Is a strong correlation of the DNA of the spam.

This is probably good time to announce that i'm selling my spam S, N, F S. To see how much that writing the well.

your children, your future children and my future children proposed to do you to together since i've only done one you to class so um i'm strongly vested in um you having in children .

yes um but only in the friendly kind of way um well friendly competition kind of .

way doman of the clan for sure so. Moving on to science but still with our minds in the ukraine, did you encounter any scientist or see any universities or as we know in this country and in europe and and elsewhere, um know science takes infrastructure. You need buildings, you need laboratories, need robots, you need a lot of equipment and you need um minus city freezers and you need incubators and you need money and you need technicians. And typically it's been the wealth of your countries that have been able to do more research for sake of research and development and practice ation certainly the ukraine had some marvell's universities and marvellous scientist what's going on with science and science scientists over there and um and gosh, can we even calculate the loss of discovery that is occurring as a consequence of this conflict?

So science goes on. The before the war, ukraine had a very viBrant tax sector, that which means engineering and all that kind of stuff. K, F, is a lot of excEllent universities, and they still go on. The biggest hit, I would say, is not the infrastructure, the science, but the fact, because of the high moral, everybody is joining the military.

So everybody, he's going to the front to fight, including, you know, you ander huberman would be fighting, and not because you have to, but because you want to, and everybody know would be really proud you're fighting, even though everyone tries to convince you. Andrew huberman, you have much Better ways to contribute. There's deep honour in fighting for your country, yes, but there are Better ways to contribute to your country.

Then just picking up a gun that you're not that trained with and going to the front. Still, they do IT. The scientists, engineers, CEO, professors.

students.

Men and just men and women are obviously primarily men. But men and women like much more than you would see in other military. Women are everybody. Everybody wants to fight, proud of fighting. There is no discussion of of kind of passive ism.

Should we be fighting? She's this right? You know it's everybody's really proud of fighting so that so there's this kind of black hole that pulls everything, all the resource into the war effort.

That's not just financial but also uh, psychological. So it's like if you're in a scientist, IT feels like what IT feels like a almost like you're dishonouring humanity by continuing to do things you are doing before. There's a lot of people that converted to being soldiers.

They literally watch you do video of how to shoot particular gun, how to ARM a drone with a gade. You know, if you're a tech person, you know how to work with drones. So you are going to use that, use whatever skills you ve got, figure out whatever skills you ve got in how to use them to help the effort on the front.

And so that's a big hit, but that I talked to a lot of focusing faculty, primarily in the tech economics space. So I didn't get a chance interact with folks who on the biology, chemistry, europe, science side of things, but that that still goes on. So one of the really impressive things about ukraine is that they're able to maintain infrastructure like road, food supply, all that kind of stuff, education, while the wars going on, fishing cave.

The war started where nobody knew what the key is gonna taken by the russian forces. IT was surrounded and a lot of experts from outside were convinced that russia take key of and and they didn't. And one, one of the really impressive things as a leader, one of things I really experiences, that a lot of people criticized, elan ski, before the war, he only had about like thirty percent approval rate.

A lot of people didn't like sankey. But one of the great things he did as a leader, which i'm not sure many leaders will be able to do, is when kf was clearly being invaded, he chose to stay. He stay in the capital, everybody, all the american military, the intelligence agencies, nato, his own staff, advisers, all told him to fleet.

And he stayed. And so that I think that was a beacon, a symbol for the rest, for the university, for science, for for the infrastructure, that worth day to. And that kept the whole thing going.

There is an interesting social experiment that happened, I think, for fox, for interesting or of gun control in this country in particular, is a one of the decisions they made early on is to give guns to everybody seme automatics early on in the war, early on in the world. Yeah, so everybody had gone. They also released a much of prisoners from prison because there is no staff to to a um to keep the prisons running.

And so there is a very interesting psychological experiment of like, how's this gonna go? Everybody has a gun. Are they going to start robbing places? That they're going to start taking advantage of a chaotic situation? And what happened is that crime went to zero. So he turned out that this, as an experiment, worked wonderfully to the .

case where love generalized, yes, or at least hate did not. We don't know its love, or it's sort of lack of initiative yourself. You know, common culture directed.

yeah, I know IT right. It's I I think that's very correct to say that I wasn't hate that was unifying people IT was love of country, love of community. It's the probably the same thing that will happen in humans when like aliens invade.

It's well, it's it's the common effort. Everybody puts everything else to the side plus just the share mont of guns. So much like texas, you realized like well, there's going to be a self correcting mechanism very quickly, because the rule of law was also put aside, right, like them.

Basically, the police force lost a lot of power because everybody else has guns and kind of taking the line into their own hands. And that system, at least in this particular case, in this particular moment in human history, worked. So, interesting lesson.

you know, I IT is I had an interesting contrast sales share with you, because you mention texas. So not so long ago, I was in Austin, often visit you or others in Austin, as you know. And many doors that I walked past, including a school, said, um, no firearms passed this point.

He was a sticker on the door. You see this on hospital. Sometimes I saw this at failure. College medicine said, relatively common to see in texas, not so common in california.

And then I flew to the service cover, was walking by an elementary school in my old neighborhood and saw a similar sticker and looked at IT. IT said, no peanuts or other allergy containing foods past this point on the door of the elementary school. So quite a different contractually, you know, guns and peanuts. Now peanut logy is obviously are very serious for some people, although there's great research of stanford showing that early exposure to peanuts um can prevent the allergies.

It's uh but don't start rubin yourself in peanut butter folks if you have a peanut logy that's not of us way deal with that in any case, the contrast of what's dangerous, the contrast of um you know the familiar with guns versus no familiar you know in israel, elsewhere you see machine gun in the airport in germany Frankford you see machine gun in the airport. Not so common in the united states. So again, there's I feel like there's this a picture vision, there's this a picture of pleasures and great versus creature comforts and lack of creature comforts.

And then there's this approach of of danger, right? Um people who are familiar guns I know are familiar with people come in and setting their fireroom on the table eating eating dinner, you know but you're not accustom to that. It's daring.

right? I should mention the people know this throughout human history, but the human ability to um get A A simulated now uh get used to of violence is incredible. So like you could be living in a peaceful time like like we're here now and there will be one explosions like a nine eleven type of situation.

They'll be a huge shock, terrifying. Everybody freaks out. Second one is a huge drop off and how you freak out, you get in the matter of days, sometimes hours, IT becomes the the Normal.

Have talked to so many people in the heart cave, which is one of the towns, seen a lot of heated battle. You ask him, is IT safe there? In fact, when I went to the close and closer, the wars on, yes, people is is safe, and their answers usually, uh, pretty safe.

It's all signal the noise.

You IT like nobody has told me, except like western reporters sitting in the west side of ukraine. It's really dangerous here. Everyone's like, yeah you know it's good like um my own code is died yesterday, like he was shot um but pretty you know it's pretty good like the the farms still running like the how do I put IT they focus on the positive, that's one. But it's there's a deep truth that which is you just get used to difficult situations. And the stuff that make you happy and stuff that make you upset is road to that new Normal to establish.

I grew up in california and there were a lot of earthquakes. Remember the no and quake. I remember the we called pancaking on top of people and cars.

I remember um I moved to southern california is the north wethers ake. Wherever I moved, there seemed to be earthquakes. I never worry about earthquake es ever.

I just in fact, I don't like the destruction they cause, but everyone is. Well, the earthquakes role through this kind of exciting IT sounds like a train coming through. It's like, well, like the earth is moving again.

I don't want anyone to get harmed, but I enjoy a good rumble coming through. Nonetheless, it's signal the noise. But if I saw a tornadoes freak out and people from the midwest are probably comfortable with you destiny by so so I think signal the noises is real.

Before I neglect, although I won't forget, speaking of signal, the noise and environment you are returning to, or i've gone back to one of your original natural habitats, which is the master utes into of technology, which is it's actually difficult, prance and full. M I T right? So you've been sprinting sometime. They are teaching um and doing other things tells what you're P.

P to with MIT recently. But it's i'm really glad that you being the less coast know the difference. Like boss in new york, I feel like a lot. It's like the east coast.

It's very different. It's astonia new yorker, yeah I I love .

IT I get I gave lectures there in front of the in person crowd. What are you talking about for the A I so different netorks of A I and know robotics, machine learning, machine learning. So for people who know the artificial llagas field, they don't use the term A I and the people for outside use eyes that the biggest breakthrough in the machine learning field with some discussion of robotics and so on.

Yeah in person is is wonderful. I'm a soca for that. I really avoided teaching any kind of interaction during covered because people put a lot emphasis on, but also got comfortable with remote teaching. And I think nobody enjoyed IT except sort of there's a notion that much easier to do because you don't have to you have to travel, you don't have you can do IT out in your pajamas kind of thing.

But when you actually get to do IT, you don't get the same kind of joy that you do when you teaching as a student, you don't get the same kind of joy of learning is not as effective and all that kind of thought. So to be in person together with people to see their eyes, to get their excitement, to get the questions in all the interactions. That was awesome.

And i'm still A A soccer and a believer in the the idea of of M I T. Of the university, I think, is an incredible place, is something in the air still. But I really hit the pandemic versions are hard because, and I can say this is not using, this is missing IT.

That administration, as in all cases when people criticize institutions, the pandemic has given more power to the administration and taking away power from the faculty and the students. And that's a from everybody involved, including the administration. That's a concern because the universe is about the teachers and the students that to be primary.

And one of you have a pandemic is an opportunity to increase amount of rules. Like one of the things that really bothered me and I scream from the top of the M. I T.

Dome about this is they've instituted a new team ticket system, which is, if you're visitor to the campus M I T, you have to register. You have to first all show that you've vaccinated. But more importantly, this a process to visiting, you need to get permission to visit.

One of the reasons I love M I T, unlike some other institutions, M I T just leaves the door open to anyone in classrooms. You can roll in the ridiculous characters, the students that are kind of like usually doing business stuff. Our economics can roll into a physics class and just, you know, you can not allowed, but it's a grey area as you, you you let that happen and that creates a flourishing of the community that is beautiful.

And I think adding extra rules um puts a squeeze on and limits some of the the flourishing and I hope some of them disappears of a time as we can let go of the risk aversion that was created by the pandemic because we can enter the new the Normal return back. Some of that forcing can happen. But when you're actually in there with the students that I was this magic, I love you, I love IT. Well.

some of your earliest video, oh, is on your youtube channel or of you in the classroom, right? Tell this all started.

Yeah, that's how youtube like putting stuff fan and youtube surfing, right? Well.

at the time when you did IT, again, you're a pioneer in that sense. You did that George ters and did that putting up lectures um is yeah I would I teach still every every winter I teach direct, of course and i'll be doing even more teaching going forward. But the idea of those videos is being on the web is yeah that Spikes my court is all a little bit yes.

So times you get to and everybody has a different experience for me being a junior research scientist, the the kind of natural concerns I who I and when I was given this letter is like, I don't deserve any of this.

That's your humility coming through. And I actually think humility on the part of instructor is good because those that think you know that they are entitled and who else who else could give this letter then I worry more. I think it's um I once heard I don't know if it's still true that the at kal tech, right the great california institute technology not far from here um that many the faculty you're actually afraid of the students not physically afraid, but they're intellection afraid because the students are so smart and teaching there can be downright frightening i've heard but that's great keeps everybody on their toes and um I think and i've been corrected in lecture before at stanford and elsewhere no one of my lab is a USA o say we you know last like you said this and now you said that IT on the podcast and and I think is that moment where you sometimes feel that that urge should defending you oh you you're right and I think he depends on how one was trained. My graduate advisor was wonderful at saying, I don't know all the time and he went to harvard radCliff U C S F and kale ch and brilliant woman um and had no problems so I don't .

have that problem. So I just have two guys that somebody speaks up, grab, dragging out of the room, never seem again. So everybody is really supportive. I don't understand the among of love and support is very.

the last few students are there and everybody seems to be. Now I think that i'd love to sit in on one year election, as I know very little about AI machine learning.

where robotics I ever talked at. Mt, have you ever like given lecture? Oh yeah.

when I was on the job market from as a faculty member, my final two choices were between MIT p power. I had an on paper offer, wonderful place, wonderful to do neuroscience. And you see santiago, which is a um wonderful news science program.

In the end, that made sense or me beyond west coast for personal reasons um is some amazing their own science going on their goodness. And that's always been true and it's going to continue. It's been a long time since have been invited back there. Oddly enough, when I started doing more podcasting and I still run a lab, but I I shunk my lab considerably when I was doing, i've done more protesting, receive fewer academic lecture and rights, which makes sense. But now they are sort of coming back.

And so when people invite now, I always say, you, do you want me to talk about eventual salomon and its role in uh, anxiety and aggression or do you want me talking about the podcast? And my big fear is i'm going to go back to have a lecture about the retina off with an athletics reader just getting that wouldn't happen. But um this I think it's great to continue to put keep a foot in both places. I was so happy to hear that you're teaching in mmt because podcasting is one thing, teaching is another, and there's overlap there in the when diagram. But listen, the students, they get to sit in on when you've lectures and you may see me sitting there in the audience soon when i'd creep in to your class sunglasses it's right wearing a red shirt um you won't recognize me are certainly um receiving a great gift of watched your lectures on youtube, even the early ones and listen I know you to be .

a phenomenal teacher yeah there's something about so also doing like that are pretty late last night working for deadline on on a paper. One of the things that I hope to do for hopeful ly the rest of my life is, is to continue publishing.

And I think it's really important to do that even if you continue the pocket because you wanna be just on your own intellectual and scientific journey as you do podcasting, as at least for me, and especially on the engineering cyc, I want to build stuff. And I think that's like keeps your ego check, keeps you humble. Because I think if you talk too much on a microphone, you start getting you might lose track of. Now the grounds in that comes from engineering, from science and the scientific process, in the criticism that you get all that stuff and how slow .

and additives ties. We have two papers right now. They are in the revision stage. And it's been a very long road. And I was asked this recently because I went with my chairman.

He said, do you want to continue run a library? You just going to go full time on the podcast. And stanford has been very supportive, I must say, as I know, mi t has been of, and I said, I absolutely want to continue to be involved in research, into research.

And we start time at these papers and we're looking over my this was my euro's review and looking back, like, goodness, these papers have been in play for her very long time. So it's a long row. But you you learn more and more.

And the more time you spend, you know, my optically looking a bunch of data, the more you learn and the more you think, I totally agree, talking to these devices for podcasts, wonderful cus. It's fun. IT relieves a certain age that we both have, and hopefully IT land some important information out there for people. But doing researchers is like the I unite. I guess if you know, you know there's like the the the unpeeled of the onion, knowing that there could be something, there are just .

nothing like IT. I mean, you do, especially with the pandemic. And for me, both twitter and the park have made me much more impatient about the slowing ness of the review process, because winter will do that. Twitter, will that be, would pocket you? You have a cool, you find something cool, and then you have ideas and all, and you will just see them, and will be out pretty .

quickly and interest. And you can .

write up something like there is a cultural computer posting of an archive and uh preprinted that don't get a new review. And sometimes they don't even go to the review process ever because like people just start using them if it's code. And like what was the point of this IT works like the itself evident that IT works because people are using IT and that that I think applies more to engineering fields since an actual tool that works.

IT doesn't matter of IT. You want to scientifically prove that IT works. IT works because using for a lot .

of people will start interact. But I just for a point of reference, the famous paper describing the double hillites which turned watch and crick the nobel prize and earn rosin Frankly nobel Price too of course but they got IT um for the structure of DNA of course that paper was never reviewed at nature they published IT because it's importance with self evident or whatever then .

he was yet purely editorial decision.

I believe I mean that's what I was told by someone who is currently in other nature um if that turns out to not be correct, someone will tell us the omens for sure I think that's pretty interesting, right? And perhaps the most significant discovery in biology and bioengineering, which leading to buy engineering as well, of course, of the last century, was not peer reviewed.

Yeah but so the air why sign? But many others have i've talked about this, which is, I mean, anything people understand how poor the pure review processes, just the amount of because you think pure review IT means all the best peers get together and they review your stuff. But it's unpaid work and is usually a small number of people and a very, very, very select perspective. So they might not be the best person, especially its super novel work.

and it's who has time to do IT. I'm on a bunch of editorial board still why I don't know, but I enjoy the peer review process and sending papers up. Often times the best scientists are very busy and don't have time to review and often times, uh, the more premier journals will select from a kind of a unique kit of very good scientist who are very close to the work, sometimes to be look very far from the work.

they are really and both have negatives, right? If you very close to the work, there are jealous y and all those basic human things very far from the work, you might not appreciate the the nuance contribution and .

their psychologies aren't interpret again. But good friend of mine who is extremely successful neuroscientists, how would who's investigator IT said, I always told me that um they I won't even going to say whether not who they are. They select the reviews on the basis of who has been publishing very well recently because they assume that that person be more benevolent because they're been doing well so that the the love expands.

It's good point to that actually but you know the the idea that editors might actually be the best reviews so that that was the traditional that that's the thing. I to mention the area once that talks about the back several decades ago, editors have much more power and there is something to be made for that. They editors are the ones who are responsible for crafting the journal, like they really are invested in this.

And so, and there are also often experts, right? So that makes sense for an idea to have a bit of power. In this case, like usually, if an idea is truly novel, you could see IT and um so it's IT makes sense for an adult to have more power. That regard of course, for me I I think pure review should be done the way twitter down, which is like crowd source .

or amazon .

rows the crowd and let the crowd add depth and breaths in in context for the contribution. So um you know if the paper over states the degree of contribution, the crowd will check you on that um if there's not a support or like the conclusions are not supported by the evidence, the crowd will checking you on that that should there could be， of course, a political bigger in that enters the picture has present very controversial topics.

But I think I trust the intelligence of human beings to figure that out. And I think most of us are trying to figure this whole process out. I just wish I was happening much faster because on the important topics, the review cycle could be could be faster.

And we learn that to cove IT, that twitter was actually pretty effective doing science communication. Really interesting. Some some of the best scientists took to twitter community their own work and other people's work and always putting into of the cafe is not bear viewing so on. But it's it's all out there and the data just moves so fast. And if you want stuff to move fast, twitter is the best medium of communication for that is cool to see.

I'm now on twitter more regularly and initially was just instagram. And I remember you I used to have this over over dinner during conversations where i'd say I don't understand twitter and you say I don't understand instagram. Course, we understand how IT worked and how to work each respective platform, but I think we were both trying to figure out you know what is driving the psychology of these different venues because they are quite distinct psychologies. Um for whatever reason, I think i'm finally starting to understand twitter and enjoy a little bit.

Initially, I wasn't prepared for the level of kind of reflective scrutiny that that sounds a bit oxymoron, but that people pick up on one small thing and drive IT down that that trajectory didn't seem to be happening quite as much on instagram. I love your tweet. Say I do have a question about your your twitter account and how you do you have serve internal filters of what you'll put up and won't put up because sometimes you'll put up things out about life and reflections.

Other times you'll put up um things like what you're excited about in A I or of course point very podcast, including your own others as well. Know what do you how do you approach social media, not how do you regulate your behavior on there in terms of how much time I said, I know you've talked about that before. You know, what's your mindset around social media when you go on there to either post or forage or respond information?

I think I try to add some not a sound good shape, but some love out there into the world. L, S, O, J, simpson called a twitter world. I think there is this viral negativity that can take hold and I tried to find the right language to add um you know good vibes out there. And it's actually really, really tRicky because if there's something about positivity that sounds fake and i'm not I can't quit put my finger on IT, but whenever I talk about love and and the positive and almost child like in my curiosity and positivity, people are start to think like surely he is like skeletons in the closet, like there's dead bodies in his basement, like this must be a fake he added. I keep mining the basement that's the details.

I was referred to your attic. I don't have an added or a basement in nord dead bodies.

I just want be very clear yeah I do have an attic and actually haven't been up to maybe there is bodies up there but as I out up for the basement called on there, I like IT no but there's assumption that this is not genuine or not um is this is genuine and some kind of way and so they tried to find the right language for that kind of stuff to had had to be positive, some of IT. I was really inspired by elan's approach to twitter.

Not all of IT, but the when he just is silly, I found that a silliness. I think it's a herman has he said the something to pair a phrase that all my favorite writers and think and step of as said, learn what is to be taken seriously and laugh at the rest. I think I try to be silly, laugh at myself, laugh at the absurd of life, and in part when i'm serious, tried to just be positive, uh, just see a positive perspective. But and also, as you said, people pick out certain words and so on, and they attack each other, attacked me over a certain usage of words and to go tweet.

I think the thing I try to do is think possibly towards them like do not ask like so whenever somebody criticizing me and so on, I I just smile if there's a lesson to be learned, I learned IT and then I just send goodby bes their way, don't respond and just hopefully sort of through karma and to kind of the ripple effect of a positivity have like an impact on on them in the rest twitter, and you find is like that builds your actions, create the community. So how I behave gives me surrounded by certain people. But you know, lately, especially ukraine is one topic like this. I also thought about talking to somebody we start to me and rotate who's extremely controversial if from the prospect of a lot of people's a massage ist.

And I ve heard his name and I know that there's a lot of verse around IT, maybe you could familiarize ze me. I've been pretty nose down in podcast prep and I tried to do this fiction thing for about three, four weeks. I about, yeah and it's sort of worked. I did get some time in the car out of wilderness right myself, which was great. I did get some downtime but in any event IT I mainly considered reading and reading in nature sona ice bath working out um good food or the extra sleep, these kinds of things I really felt I need IT but I pretty naive when IT comes to the kind of current controversies. But i've heard his name and um I think he's been deplore form on a couple of platforms .

to have that right. So I should admit, while I might know more than you is not by much. So it's like it's like a five year old talking to a four year old right now is an athlete.

The podcast.

So basic summary, he used to be a fighter. Kick box, I believe was pretty successful. And I SAT during that. And after that, I think he was in a reality show. And he had all these programs that are basically like pick up artist advice.

He is this the community of people where he gives advice on how to pick up women, how to how to be successful and relationships, how to make a lot of money. And there is like IT costs money to enter that those programs. So a lot of the criticism that he gets this kind of um it's it's A A primer scheme where you convince people to join so that they can make more money and they convince others to join that kind stuff. But that's not why i'm interested in talking to him. I'm interested because one of the guest may be mentioned who, but like one of the female guests ahead, really a big scientist said that her two kids that are thirteen and twelve really look .

up to Andrew.

and I hear this time and time again. So like he is somebody that a lot of teens, Young teens, look up to. So I haven't done serious research, like I I actually try to avoid doing researching to.

I agree to talk, and then I go deep. But there is an aspect to the way he talks about women. That while I understand and I understand certain dynamics and relationships work for people and he's one of such person.

But I think him being really disrespect tiful towards women is not what I. Is not how I see what he means to be a good man. So the conversation went to have with him is about masculinity.

What does masculinity ity mean in the twenty first century? And so when I think about that kind of stuff, and because we're talking about twitter, it's like going into a war zone. I'm like a happy go, lucky person.

but you send me of the ukraine, but I don't want to have this conversation .

on twitter because is really, really, really tRicky one because also, as you know, when you sit when you do a pocket like everybody wants you to one to win and like there's not, is everything you do is positive. Maybe you'll say the wrong thing is like inaccurate thing. You can correct yourself with the anger with Donald trump, with folks like this.

You have to I mean, is a professional boxing. They get to push the person. You have to be really equate. You have to be a sympathetic because you can just do what journalists do, which is talk down to the person the entire time. That's easy.

The hard thing is to emphasize, with the person, to understand them, to still men, their case, but also to make your own case. So that case about what he means to be a man, to me, a strong man is somebody who is respectful to women, not at a weakness, not of a social justice warrior signals and all that kind of stuff. But out of that's what A A strong man does like.

They don't need to be disrespectful to prove their position in life. He is often not a lot of people say it's a character. He's being massaging tic.

He's being a massage ous as a kind of for entertainment purposes. So like an avatar, yes, but to me that avar IT has a lot of influence on Young folks. So the character has has.

has impact. I don't think you can separate the avatar in the person in terms of the impact. As you said, in fact, there are a number of accounts on twitter and in sera and elsewhere which people i've only revealed their first names or they give themselves another name where they're using a cartoon image. And part of that I believe in and at least from some of these individuals who actually know who they are, I understand as a and attempt to maintain their privacy, which is important to many people are and in some cases um so that they can be more in flaming and then just pop up elsewhere as something else without anyone knowing that it's the same person.

Some of the this is the dark star. I'm been reading a lot about ukraine and not see germany of authorities and forties and so on. And you get to see how much the absurd returns to evil quickly.

One of things that were one thing I really don't like to see on twitter in the internet is how many statements end will allow. Well, it's like. You think just because something is kind of funny, or is funny or is legitimate, the funny IT also doesn't have a deep effect on society.

So there's such a difficult grey area because some of the best comedy is mark and mean. But IT revealed some important truth that we need to consider. But sometimes comedy is just covering up for destructive ideology.

And you have to know, the line between those two hit there was seen as a joke in the late twenty and the thirties, the native germany, until the joke became very serious. You have to be careful to know the difference between the the joke in the reality and do all that I in in a conversation. I'm just such a big believer in conversation to be able to reveal something through conversation. But I don't know one of the big, you know, unite chAllenge ourselves all the time. I don't know if I I have what IT takes to have a good, empathetic, but adversarial .

conversation. I need to learn more about this type person or not learn about that. Yeah sounds sounds like maybe it's something to skip. I don't know because the end i'm not familiar with the but I was going to ask you um whether not you seek out out or whether not you would ever consider every Donald trump as a .

guest on your podcast yeah i've thought to joe a lot about this and. I, I, I really believe I can have a good conversation down drop, but I haven't seen many good conversations with him. So like, part of me thinks, part of me believes is possible. But he often effectively runs over the interviewer.

Now you can sit him down, give an element and athletes, I mean, that's nice, cool air condition black curtain studio you've got, and you know, a different side might come out.

Context is powerful. Well, just really good at this, which is relaxing person, you know, like here, have a drink, right? Smoke joint, whatever IT is, but some this energy of just less relax and there's laughter and so on. I don't think as people know, i'm just not good at that kind of stuff.

So I think the way I could have a good conversation with him, it's to really understand his world, of you be able to steal man as world, you and those that support him, which is, i'm sorry to say, for people who seem to hate don, trump is a very large percentage of the country. And so you have to really empathy with those people, have empathize down or trump the human being. And from that perspective, asking hard questions.

Who do you think is is the counter point? If you're gonna see, you seek baLance in your gasp ve, you're going to have trump on, then you have to have who are well.

it's .

interesting. File seems to be you strongly associated with sort of counter values at listen in the I the public this is retiring soon.

But I yes, he is retiring so necessary the interesting Anthony, yeah, definitely. But I don't think he's a kind of baLance. He's he's a complicated, a fascinating figure who seems to have attracted a lot of hate and and distrust.

But I love from in love I love some people. But I mean I know people um not even necessarily scientists who have you know profile shirts. I've seen people with a thousand you excuse me certainly, but um who adore him there, people who adore him on the same whether people that adore trump IT IT is so interesting that you know one species of animal is get such a divergent neural .

circuitry it's almost feels like it's by design and every single topic would find tension. And division is fascine to watch. I M. I got a really witness IT from zero to one hundred in ukraine, where there is not a huge significant division, there was in certain party, ukraine.

But across the europe, across the world, there was not damage division between russian ukraine and IT was just born overnight, this intense hatred. So if you see the same kind of stuff with with fault chi over the pandemic, at first we're all kind of ddt and uncertainty kind of there is IT together this with a pandemic. Of course, there is more difficult because you're isolated.

But then you start to figure out like the the is probably the politicians in the media. I try to figure how can I take a side here and how can I now start reporting on this side or that side and say how the other side is wrong? And so I think getting functional is a part of just being used as escape goal for certain things as part of that kind of narrative of of division.

But I think so. Trump is a singular figure that, to me, represent something important in american history and not sure what that is but I I think you have to think you put on your history and had go forward in time and think back like how will he remember red be remember red twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years so now who is the opposite of that? Um you have to I I I would really have to think about that because because trump so singular.

I think A C is an interesting one. But SHE saw Young. It's unclear to know how. What if you represents a legitimate ge scale movement or not? Bernie Sanders is an interesting option, but I wish he would be thirty, forty years Younger, like the Young. Bernie would be a good.

the scientists working on that.

Yeah, I think so.

Not him specifically.

but well, yeah, I maybe him. We never know. There is a big conspiracy theory that putters, that is that's a body double is no longer putin? No, no, no.

A hard time conspiracy.

There is no, no, no that the put you see on camera today is a body double well one thing that .

um you know in in science in a particular in anatomy um there's a classification scheme for different types of anonymous which they either say you're a lumper or a splinter and some people like to call a whole structure or something nonnegotiable ily just for simplicity， but for a lot of reasons. And then other people like to micro divide the nucleus into multiple names.

And of course people used to be able to name different brain structures after themselves. So there will be the the nucleus of lx and in the human for siculus or whatever. Um less of that now is but um in by the way, those structures don't actually exist just yet. We we haven't defined that. I was making those names up.

But um what's interesting is IT seems like in the last five years, there's been a lot of there's been a trend used me toward a requirement for lumping like you can't say IT seems that it's not allowed, if you will, to say, hey yeah you know and here i'm not stating my I will never reveal my preferences about pandemic related things for hopefully obvious reasons. You know, some people say vaccines, yes, but masks, no. Or vaccines and masks, yes, but let people work.

And other people say, no, everyone stay home and the other people say, no, you know, no vaccine masks, let everybody work. No saying no vaccine, no and and stay home. I don't think so.

There's this sort lumping, right? The boundaries around ideology is really did started defy science. I mean, he wasn't scientific, was one part science ish at times, and sometimes really hard core science. Other times there was politics, economics. I mean, we really saw the confluence of all these different domains of society that use very different cricket to evaluate the world.

I mean, as a scientist, you know, I remember when the vaccines first came out, and I ask somebody, you know, one of the the early concerns I had that was actually um satisfied for me was how does this thing turn off? You know if you started to generating a money, how's actually get turned off? So I asked a friend, you know that you know a lot about R N A biology and um and has to turn off the explaining to me.

I like okay um make sense um some other questions uh so but most people gonna think about IT at that level of detail necessarily but IT did seem that there was just kind of amorphous blob of ideology that they grabbed onto things. And then there was this need for a kason between them there. IT was almost felt like he became illegal in some ways to want, you know, two of the things from that menu and one of the things from that menu. I really felt like I was being constrained by a kind of like dental box model where I didn't get to define what was in the mental box. I could ever add mental box a or mental box z, but nothing in .

between anything on that topic. And I think a lot of topics, most people are in the middle with humility and certain dis trying to figure that out. And I think there is just the extremes defining um the nature of this division.

So I think it's the role of a lot of us in our individualized. And also if if you have a platform of any kind, I I think you have to try to walk in the middle, like with the empathy and humility. And that's actually what science is about. This is the is the humility. I'm still thinking about who's the .

opposite of trump. Maybe he is. I mean, maybe that is that and to to trump, I mean, not everything has an opposite. I mean is, you know maybe he's in the end of one, maybe he's in the minority of one because he was an outsider and from washington who then .

made IT there. But he also, I wonder, you have to pick your battles, because every battle you fight, you should take very seriously. And just the amount of hate I get, I got, and I still get, for having set down with the Fisher CEO. There was a very valuable lesson for me.

That one was got you a lot of heat.

The still does.

because you had some, some pretty controversial, still lifer. C, O.

I believe C, O, S.

turn over like crazy. There's a thing I do know you in science of somebody moves institutions like a big deal. Most people don't have more than two moves in in their career, maybe, but they often move to the next buildings of big deal.

But in in biotech, it's like have a former calling on from send a when he's spent C, O here, there is A C O, there is. He went back to the company, was a CEO before. Know if he's pride back to the university who worked up for for all I know it's amazing how much moving around there is. There is a very itinerant profession .

yeah I think there in certain companies, I guess in biotech would be the case though. The year is more of like a manager types. So you can sometimes jumping around benefits your experience, so you get become Better and Better being a manager.

There is something like leader revolutionary C, E, O that stick ground for longer because they are so critical to pivoting a company like the microsoft o currently, a 3 approach SE。 Somebody like that, obviously, mask is somebody like that, that is part of pivoting a company into new domains constantly. But if I buy attack, there's a machine.

And in is a lot of people, big farmer, it's like big tobacco. It's the apeda me of everything that is wrong with capitalism. It's a it's evil, right? And so I showed up in the conversation where I thought was a pretty open mind and really asked what I thought were difficile questions of him. I don't think he's ever set down to a grilling of that kind. In fact, i'm pretty sure they cut the interview short because of that.

And I thought, you know literally was hot in the room and was sweating and I I was asking tough questions for for somebody that like half the country or a large percent of the country believes he's alleviated, a lot of he helped through the financial resources that the adviser has helped to leva a lot of suffer in the world. So I thoughts for somebody like that. I was asking pretty hard questions.

Boy, did I get to hear from the side. Usually one of the size is more intense in their anger. So there are some political topics like with take, for example, I would I would hear from a very will probably be the left, far left, that would write very angrily.

And so that's a group you here from the vision CEO. I didn't get almost any messages from people saying, why did you go so hard on on him? Uh, you know, he's a, he's an incredible human, incredible leader and CEO, a company that helped helped us with the vaccine, and nobody thought I would be possible .

to develop so quickly.

You not get letter. I mean, care there about the c of people. That said, everything for me being weak that I wasn't able to call on this person. How do you sit down? How do you platform this evil person that have you make a look, human, all that kind of stuff, and you have to do that.

Of course, this great is great because I I had to do some so searching, which is like, did I like you have to ask some hard questions? I love criticism like that. You get to like, you know, I have some low points.

There's different, some despair. And you start to wonder, like, what are too weak? Should I ve talked him? What is true? And you sit there alone? And just like marine in that, and hopefully over time, that makes you Better. I still don't know what the .

right answer without one is what I feel that money plays a role here. You know, when people think big farmer, they think billions of dollars, maybe trillions of dollars, really. And certainly people who make a lot of money get scrutiny that others don't part of visit.

They are often not always visible. But uh, I think that there is a natural and reflexive and i'm not justifying IT. Um I don't feel this cause I do I know some people who are very um wealthy, some people are very poor.

Um I can say IT scales with happiness at all。 People are always shocked to to hear that. But um you know but that's what i've observed in very wealthy people but that people have a lot of money are often held to a different standard because um people resent that.

Some people resent that. And maybe um there are other reasons as well. I mean among people who are very wealthy, often times the wish is for status, right not money. You get a bunch of billionaires in a room and unless one of them is ion, who is also has a status for his accomplishments, a typically if you put a nobel prize where in the room with a bunch a billionaire they are all talking to that person right um and they're many very interesting billionaire um but status is um is something that is often, but not always associated with money, but is a much rarer form of um of unique ness out there, positive uniqueness. If wants to consider status positive because there's a downside to but um so I wonder what are not the fighter C E O caught extra heat because people assume and I probably him, his salary is quite .

immense yeah so because I have a lot of data on this, I can it's a very good hypothesis was test and scientific.

He tell me it's a great, how about this? But it's wrong. I know this more. I know this more. I want to .

think it's wrong. There is that effect is there for a lot of people. But I think the distrust is not towards the C. E. O. The distance is towards the company.

One of the really difficult searching I had to do, which is just having a interact with adviser folks at every level from junior to the CEO. They're all really nice people. They have a mission.

They talk about trying to really help people because it's the best way to make money is come up medicine that helps a lot of people. Like the mission is clear. They're all good people, a lot of really brilliant people.

Pds, so you can have a system where all the people are good, including the C. E. O. And by good, I mean, people that really are trying to do everything, they they get a whole life to do good.

And yet you have to think that that system can a deviate from a path that does good because you start to deceive yourself of what is good. You turned into a game where money does come into play from a company perspective. Where you convince yourself the more money you make, the more good you'll be able to do.

And then you start to focus more, more and more or making more money and then you can really deviate and lose track of what is actually good. I'm not saying the Sally find that does that, but I think companies could do that. You can apply that criticism to social media companies, to big farmers companies.

That one of the big lessons for me, that I don't know the answer is, but that all the people inside the company could be good people you want to hang out with, people you don't want to work with. But as the company is doing evil and like, that's a possibility. So the distress, I don't think, is towards the billion in our individual, which I do see a lot of in this case, I think it's it's like wall street distrust that the machinery of this particular organization has has has gone off track is the .

generalization of hate again. yeah.

And then you good luck figuring out what is true. This is the, this is the tough stuff. But I should say the individuals like individual scientists at the N H in in visor, I just incredible people like there.

They're really, they're really brilliant people. So you know, I never trust administration of the business people, no fence business people. But the scientists are always good. They they have the right motivator in life, but again, with they can a blinders on to focus on the science, not to germany has history of people just to focus on the science, and then the politicians use the scientists to achieve whatever and they want.

But if you just look narrow, ly at the the journey of a scientist is a beautiful one, because they ultimately in IT for curiosity in the moment to discovery. Where is money, where I me, prestige probably does come to play later, later in life. But especially Young scientists there after the the, it's like that pulling IT, the threat of curiosity to try to discover something big, get excited by that kind of stuff. And beautiful to see.

So is beautiful. And other former graduate, now a post rocket alter, and I don't even know he had a cell phone. You would come in and put her cell phone into the desk.

And he was tremendously productive. But that wasn't why I brought IT up. SHE was productive as a side effect of just being absolutely committed and obsess to discover the answers to the questions he was asking as best he could.

And IT was you could feel IT you could just feel the intensity and just incredibly low activation energy. If there was an experiment to do, just go do IT um your teaching and M I T. You are obviously traveling in the world that you're ring the past a lot of coverage of chess recently.

which is interesting.

I H OK sure. And let's get to those for sure. And then you're going to like IT oh no. okay. And then and then also some very divertisement message again. Um the also you still seem to have a proclivity for finding guess controversial, right, do you about A C O, either in intense people and said what we're getting folks is a we're not doing neural imaging here in the traditional sense of putting someone into a scanner. What we're doing here is we're using as the great carl dicer of who was on your podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for connected. He's an incredible person.

He's an incredible psychiatrist, bioengineer and human being writer. And your conversation with him was phenomenal. I listen to IT twice, actually have taken notes. We talk about IT in this household. We really do his his description of love is not to be missed.

I'll just leave IT at that because if I try and say I won't capture IT well but you know we're getting A A language based um map of at least a portion of lex freeman brain here. So what else is going on these days in that brain? As IT relates to robotics, A I our last conversation was a lot about robot and the potential for robot human interaction. What even what is a robot that said a um are you still working on robots or focused on robots and you know where we are science showing up in your life besides the things we've already talked about.

So I think the last time we talked was before ukraine.

yes, or you were just about to leave.

yes.

So that I mean you so that's why I went on like, you know, might be the you said you want to come out here .

before after come out .

to see before you go. But here you are in the flash, I .

think. So a lot of just a lot of my mind has been occupied obviously with that part of the world. But the the most of the difficult struggles that are still going through with that.

I haven't launched the company that I want to launch, and the company has to do with the eye. I means that maybe a longer conversation, but the ultimate dream is to put robot in every home. But short term, I see their possibility of launching a social media company.

And the the it's a nontrivial explanation why that least the robots in the home. But it's basically the algorithms that fuel effective social robotics. So robots, you can form a deep connection with. And so i've been really you have been building prototypes but struggling that I don't have maybe, if forward to be critical, the guts to to watch a company and that well, it's combined.

I think you've .

got that .

got somebody. It's clear if you will do an interview with the visor CEO and you're considering putting this tape fellow on your podcasting. You're gone to the ukraine that you you have the guts. I know it's also a um IT means not doing quite a lot about.

but that's what I mean. But IT does takes the thing is, as many people know, when you fill your day and you're busy, that busy ss becomes an excuse that you use against doing the things that scare you. A lot of people use family in this way. You know, my wife, my kids, I can't. When in reality, some of the most successful people have a wife and have kids and have families, and they still do IT. And so a lot of times we can fill the day with busy work with a like, like, yeah, of course I have poke us all this kind of stuff and they make me happy and all the wonderful the research is teaching so on but all of that can just service an excuse from the thing that my heart is is the right thing to do and um that's why I don't have the gust, the guts to say no to basically everything and then to focus all on because part of IT is i'm unlikely to fail at anything in my life currently because I already found a comfortable place with the with the startup is most going to be most likely going to be a failure now, an embarrassing failure.

So well, the machine learning data that i'm aware of, I don't know a lot of our machine learning, but the within the realm news science say that a failure rate of about fifteen percent is optimal for neuroplasticity and growth.

Whether or not that translators to all all kinds of practices isn't clear by getting trials right, eighty five percent of the time seems to be optimal for language learning, seems to be optimal for mathematics s and seems to be optimal for physical pursuits. And look, on average, right? I'm sure that you have more machine learning geeks on that listen to your podcast and listen this podcast, but doesn't mean you have to fail on fifteen percent of your weight sets, folks. Something could be sixteen percent. Now i'm just killing, but it's it's not exact but but it's a pretty .

good rule of them. I think a lot of start up founders would literally murder for eighty five percent chance of success. I think I think given all the opportunities I have, the skill set, the the funding, all that kind stuff, my chances are relatively high for success.

But what relatively high means in the start of world is so far, far below eighty five. It's we are talking about single dig percentages. Most startups fail.

But I think that means you know, the decision to focus on the company, not all the things, means the decision to close the hatch on dopamine retrieval from all these other things that are very predictable sources of doping. Um not that everything is delpy mine, but know dopamine is I think, the primary chemical driver motivation.

You know if you know that you can get some degree of satisfaction from scaling social media from uh that partial cup of coffee, that's what you're going to do h that's what you're going to consume unless um you somehow invert the algorithm. You um and you say, you know it's actually my denial of myself drinking that coffee that's gonna the the dopamine and then you know and that's the beauty of having a is that you can make those decisions you know this is the essence, I I do believe, of what we see of David gog. And there's much more there there a person that none of us know and only he knows, of course, but the idea that the pain is the source of dopamine, the, the, the olympic friction, as I sometimes like to call IT, is the source of dopamine e.

That runs counter to how most nervous systems work. But IT was its decision based, right? It's not because his musculars is a certain way or his you know he had crisper or something. It's because he decides that um and I think that amazing.

But what he means in terms of starting a company and changing priorities as a closing the hatch on all or many of the current sources of dopamine, so that you can drive dopamine from the failures within the narrow context, and is a very reduction ist view, kind of neural centric view of what we're talking about. But I think about this a lot. I mean, the decision to choose one relationship versus another is a decision to close down other opportunities. So I think that the you know, the decision to order to one thing of the many of versus others is this decision to close down those other hatches. So I think that you absolutely can do IT is just a question of can you flip the algorithm.

have remap the source of doped to something else is right?

And maybe and maybe go out there not to succeed, but make the you know the journey is the destination type thing, but you know when you're financially vested in your time, and as far as I know, we only yet one life, at least on this planet, and you want to spend that wisely, right?

And a lot of that, the people that around you that would be people are really important. And I don't have people around me that say you do to start up is very difficult to find such people .

because that .

s doesn't make sense for you that up. The people that love me my whole life have been telling me doesn't make sense what what you're doing right now.

Just do the thing you're doing previously.

Why do I get the sense that because they are saying your APP uni, i've talked to people I love, my parents, family, so on friends, i'm one of those people that needs unconditional support for difficult things like I know myself. Coaching wise is good to I like, so so here's how I get coached best. Let's save restore. I like a coach that says you want to win the olympics, they will not force you. Can I say I want to win the gold metal at the olympics and freestyle restful.

I I want a coach that doesn't blink once and hear me and believes that I can do IT and then is viciously intense and cruel to me on the an pursuit like if you want to do this, let's do this right? So but that support that like that positivity I don't i'm never um you know i'm not energized nor do I see that as love a person saying like basically curis that like saying like you're a you're too old to when the olympic games, right you like all the things you can come up with that's not helpful to me and I can't find adoption or haven't yet adoption source from the the haters like basic people they're criticizing. You are trying to prove them wrong. I IT doesn't IT never got me off like IT never .

where some people seem to like that. I mean, David, garages that seems to come. He seems driven by many sources that he has access.

I I don't know, because i've never asked him, but I I if I were adventure, guess i'd say that he probably has a lot of options inside his head is to how to push through chAllenge, not just over campaign, but but i'll post sometimes about the fact that people will say this or people will do this. And you know it's and talk about the push back approach. He'll also talk about the push back approach that's purely internal, that dos involve anyone else. Great versatility there.

Yeah there's literally like a voice. He is that that represents some kind of like devil that wants him to fail. And he's, you know, he calls him bitch and all kinds of things.

Fuck you. There's always like an enemy, and he's going to get that enemy. And I wish maybe that something, I mean, really interesting. Maybe you can remap IT this way so that you can construct, like that's a kind of obvious mechanism construct in a morphs blob that is a hater that wants you to fail, right?

This kind of the David gans thing you're in that that blobs says you're too weak, you're too dumb, your, you're too old, you're too fat, you're too, whatever, and getting you to want to quit and so on. And then you start getting angry at that blob. And maybe that's a good motivator. I vente personally really tried that.

Well, i've had external chAllenge when I was a postdoc. Very prominent laboratory. Now, several prominent laboratories. In fact, we're working on the same thing that I wasn't I was ably post stop working on a project pretty independent from the lab I was in and there was competition, but there was plenty of room for everybody to win.

But in my head, and Frankly, I want discloses and and because there was some legitimate competition there yeah and a little bit of friction not not too much healthy scientific friction um yeah I might have pushed a few extra ours or more little bit I have to say IT felt meta lizer I felt catabolic IT didn't um I couldn't be sustained by IT and I contest that with the podcast or the work in my laboratories doing now focus on stress in human performance. It's that and it's pure love I just I want it's pure curiosity in love. I mean hard days but I never there's no adversary in the picture. They're the practical that you know workings of life.

that those the thing that joe really inspired me on. And people do create several relationships in podcasting because you get like egypt do this to get, you know they hate things, some videos be successful. There's a feeling of like, like jealous y and some people even see that is healthy, like this, like mr bees of somebody popular youtube es out.

how? How do they get one hundred million views? And I only get twenty views.

mr. Bees devoted his, according to him his entire life he's been focused on becoming .

the massive youtube chat you know he's inspiring in many ways but exist of people that get become famous for doing much less uh insane pursuit of of greatness and mister bees like this, people become famous and you know on social media so and easy to be jeal so that I just one of the early things I ve learned from joe is being a fan of his pocket is how much cel everybody.

And again, I can maybe I rode my whole document thing, but I don't get energize by people that are they become popular in the podcasting space in youtube. IT doesn't. It's awesome.

It's all of IT is awesome, and i'm inspired by that. But the promise is not a good motivator. Inspiration is like too cool.

Humans can do this. This is beautiful, but it's not i'm looking, i'm looking you know, for for forcing functions. That's why I gave away the salary of my mt.

I was hoping my bank account had zero. That will be a forcing function to be like go shit. And I you know and you not allowed to have a Normal job. So I wanted to launch and then the podcast becomes, you know a source of income so I can .

take me yeah yes. Well, you know, here I I have to confess my biases. You you are so good at what you do in the remo podcast and you're excEllent other things as well. I just have less you know, experience in those things. I know here I am taking the liberty of speaking for many, many people and just saying, I, I, I sure hell hope you don't shut down the podcast bot as your friend and as somebody who cares very deeply about your happiness and your your deeper satisfaction. If it's in your heart, heart to do a company well, then do the company and .

a lot of IT. I wouldn't even careggi as happiness. I don't know if you have things like that in in your life, but i'm probably the happiness I I could possible be right now.

That's wonderful. But the thing is there's a longing for the start of that has not do with happiness. It's something .

else that's pretty .

sure i'll be less happy because it's a really tough process. I mean, to whatever degree you can extract, happiness will struggle. Yes, maybe, but I don't see IT.

I I think I has a very, very low points. A lot of people who find find companies, found companies know about here. And I also want to be in a relationship. I want to get married. And sure as hell start up is not going to the the likelihood of that we .

could start up a family and start a company.

Well, that i'm a huge believer in that which is getting a relationship at a low point in your life.

which is sorry, i'm not disputing your stands. No, I agreed with that. I just everyone a while. There's there's a lex freedman ism that that hits a particular circuit in my brain. I just laugh out.

I just think that it's easy to have a relationship when everything is good. The relationships that become strong and are tested quickly are the ones when he is going down.

Well, then there's hope for me that. So um you know before we SAT down um I was having a conversation with podcast producer who is A I won't say David rather he's a summer of podcast and finds these amazing podcast, small podcast and and unique episode. Anyway, we were talking about um some stuff that he has had seen and read in the business sector and he was talking about the difference between job, career and a calling right and and I think he was extracting this from conversations of of C E S and founders at sea. I forget this specific founders that that brought this to light for him.

But you know that this idea that if you focus on a job, know you can make an income and hopefully you enjoy your job and not hate IT IT too much of careers is represents a sort of, in my mind, a kind of series of evolution that one can go through in your professor twenty. But a calling has a whole other level of of energetic pull to IT because IT includes career in job and that includes this concept of sort of like a life. It's it's very hard to to draw a line between a calling in career and a calling in the other parts of your life.

So the question therefore is, do you feel a calling to start this company? Or is IT born of a compulsion that um irrate you? Is that like something you wish would go away? Is something that you that you hope you won't go away?

Now I hope you won't go away. It's a calling. It's a calling. It's like beauty. It's like when I see a robot, when I first interacted with robots and IT becoming the stronger the most ophrys gated the robot I interacted with, I see a magic there. And you're like, you look around, does anyone else see this magic?

Like it's it's kind of like maybe when you fall in love like that, that feeling like does does anyone else noticed this personnel just walk in the room? I feel that way about robots and I I can elaborate what that means, but i'm not even sure I can convert into words. I just feel like the social integration of robots in society will create a really interesting world.

And um our ability to enter promotional es when we look at a robot and our ability to feel things when we look at a robot is something that most of us don't yet experience, but I think everybody will experience in the next few decades. And I I just want to be A A part of that of expLoring that because he hasn't been really thorough explored. The best robotics in the world are not curly working on that problem at all.

They they tried to avoid human beings completely, and nobody is, is really working that problem. In terms of when you look at the numbers, all the big tech companies that are investing money, the closest thing to that is alexa and basically being a servant to help to tell you the weather of play music and saw on, it's not trying to form a deep connection. And so I as you just notice, ed, the thing not not only do I notice the magic, there's a good feeling which I try not to speak to because there's no track record, but I feel like I can be good at bringing that magic out of the robot.

And there's no data that says I would be good at that. But there's a feeling is just a feeling. My guy, you know, when I, because i've done so many things, I love doing my playing guitar, all that kind stuff to I never felt that feeling when I doing jets. I I don't feel the the magic of the genius required to be extremely good a guitar. I don't feel any of that.

But i've noticed in others great musicians, they will they noticed magic about the thing they do and they and they ran that and I just always start um I think he had a different form when I before new robots existed, before A I existed, the the form was um more about the magic between humans. I I think of what is love, but like the smile the two friends have towards each other, when I was really Young and people would be excited when they first note each other and see, notice each other, and there's that moment that they share that feeling together. And I was like, well, it's really interesting.

IT is really interesting that these two separate intelligent organisms are able to connect all on this deep emotional level. It's like, huh? It's it's just beautiful to see. And I noticed the magic of that.

And then when I started a programing programing period, but then programing A I systems, you realize, oh, that could be that's not just between humans and humans, that could be human than other entities, dogs, cats and robots and that. So I, for some reason, IT hit me the most intensely. I saw robots.

Yeah, it's it's a calling, but it's a calling that I can just enjoy the the vision of IT, the vision of a future world, of an exciting future world, is full of cool stuff. Or I can be part of building that. And being part of building that means doing the hard work of capitalism, which is like raising funds from people um which for me right now is the easy part and then hiring a lot of people. I don't know how much you know about hiring solent cell ent people that will define the trajectory of not only your company, but your whole existence as a human being. And building IT up not feeling them, because now they all depend on you, and not feeling the world with an opportunity to bring something, something that bring joy to people. And like all that pressure, just nonstop fires, they have to put out the drama, the having to work with people, you know, to work with, like lawyers and the human resources and supply chain, and and you know, like, because this is a very compute heavy the inf the computer infrastructure managing security cybersecurity is because you're dealing with people's data so I have to understand not only the um the saber security of data and the privacy how to maintain privacy correctly, but also the psychology of people trusting you with their data and what is how how you know if you look at moxie berg and jack dorsey, those folks, they seem to be hated by a large number of people.

Jack, am I? You know, I think I always think of jack is a as a loved individual. But you have .

a very positive you I like .

check a lot and I like his mind and I someone close to him. I've described him to me recently as he's an excEllent listener. That's what they said about jack, and that's my experience of him to very private persons.

So will leave IT at that. But I think jack orca is one of the one of the grades of our of the last two hundred years, and it's just much quieter about his stance on things in a lot of people. But much of what we see in the world that's wonderful I think um we know him and that a gratitude i'm just voicing my stands here but .

on the person this is really important yeah a wonderful person, uh a brilliant person, a good person. But you still have to pay the Price of making any kind of mistakes. As the head of a company, you don't get any extra bonus points for being a good person.

but his willingness to go on rogan and deal directly and and say, I don't know an answer to that in some cases, but to deal directly with some really chAllenging questions to me and him tremendous respect .

yes is an individual. He was still part of them is so you've said your kid and I love jack to and interact with headrest yes um but he's also part of the system as we talked about and I would argue that jack shouldn't brought anyone else with him .

on that podcast if you .

he had a of oh he had A I I guess the the the lead the head legal with him and also he requires a tremendous 的 of skill to to go on a pocket I joe rogan， and be able to win over the trust of people by being able to be transparent, to communicate how the company really works. Because the more you reveal about how social media company works, the more you open up for security, the the vector of attacks increases.

Also, there's a lot of difficult decisions in terms of censorship or not that are made that if you make them transparent, you gonna get an order of mantua more hate. So have to make all those kinds of decisions. And I think that's one of the things I have to realize as you have to take the that available .

of potentially .

hate if you make mistakes.

Well, you you have a very clear picture of this architecture. What's required in order to create a company. Of course, there's division of labor too. I mean, you don't have to do all of those things in detail, but finding people that are excelling to do you to run the critical segments are is obviously key. I'll just say what I said earlier, which is if it's in your heart' heart to start a company, if that indeed is your calling and that sounds like IT is, then um I can't wait.

Does does heart have a heart? no. Was that expressing with me?

Probably not in my last one point. Early days we work on cuttle fish and they have multiple hearts, and they they pump ed Green blood, believing in very fascinating animal speaking of hearts and Green blood. Earlier today, before we SAT down, I solicited for questions on instrument .

and brief post.

So s in real time. My podcast team is always teasing me that I never have any charge on my phone when these people that likes to run in the run in the yellow or wherever is iphone phone yeah always .

the iphone and people are out.

Battery got a new one. I mean, this one has plenty of battery. I just got a new one. So i've have different numbers for different um things, personal and work at that. Um i'm trying that now um alright get into the I have I have .

a chest thing to dimension to.

Oh yes, please what I insult you if I look these questions .

as me no no. But I think all you by king is so there's a controversy about cheating hanneman, who is a twenty seven hundred player.

Oh yeah, I have a clip on your clips channel. By the way, I love your car channel, but I listen, your full channel.

The big accusation is that he cheated by having, I mean, it's it's have joke, but I started getting me to wonder whether so that you can cheat by having vibrating anal beds, so you can send messages to literally .

phrase that statement, not you can, but one can.

one can, one can you? A personal attack is, but made me realize .

I I use IT all the time for the .

pocket to send myself messages to remind me myself of notes um but it's interesting I mean i'm not onna call .

you again yeah that's exactly .

what I keeps my phone I did get me down this whole rabbit hole of how would you be able to send communication um in order to cheat in different sports. I mean, that doesn't have to do with chest in particular, but is interesting in chest and poker that there is there's mechanisms such a modern day where you're streaming live the competition so people can watch them on T, V, if they can only send you a signal back. They you know it's it's just a fun love thing to think about and if it's possible to pull off. So I I want to get your scientific evaluation .

of that cheat using some .

sort of interactive device vibrating moscow, basically.

Yeah so there's a famous I believe there's a famous real world story of physics students are going to get some of this wrong. So i'm saying this um in kind of course form so that somebody will correct this. But um I believe that was physics graduate students from U C.

Santa crews or somewhere else, maybe I A caltech bunch, a university so that no one, you know, A A when they want university that went to vegas and used some sort of textile device for a character ting. I think this was demonstrated or also not this particular incident. I don't think in the movie casino where there were they were, they spotted a Robert to who you have a not so vagrant once to, by the way, in taxi driver.

I wish I had A A .

eo impression right now. Travel's bo, look at up, folks travel, bio as know, like every shapes. And to a man, I would. So they had a tapping device on his ankle that was signally someone else was counting cards and then signaling to that person. So yeah, that could be done in the tactile way.

IT could be done, obviously, ear pieces as if it's deep erp as I think that there are ways that they look for that um certainly any kind of vibrational device in whatever all of us provide, its only to paid attention to that was still playing the game yeah I think it's it's entirely possible now could not be done purely nearly could there be something that was and listen, IT wouldn't have to even be below the skull. This is where whenever ver people hear about neural link or brain machine interface they always think how you have to drill down below the skull and put a chip below into, think there are people walking around nowadays. Google s minoring devices like levels which I ve used, and was very informative for me actually, as a kind of an experiment game.

A lot of interesting insights about my blood sugar regulation, how reacted from foods. That said, well, you know you can implant a um tack all device below the skin with a simple incision. Actually one of the neurosurgeons at neural link I I know well because he came up um at some point through my laboratory and was a stanford and he actually has put in a radio receiver in his hand and his wife as a two and he can open locks and at of his house and things like that so he's been to the in under the skin you know you can go to so how to use a pier, sir, you go to a, you know, body piercer type person and they can just slide IT under there. And and it's got a battery life of something, you know, some fairly longer ation.

How do you experience? Oh no, that just allows .

him to open certain locks with just his hand. But you could easily put some sort of tatis device in there.

Um but this have to connect to the nurse or is .

this just like just .

vibration vibration and you .

can and be blue th linked? I mean, no, i've seen there's A A engineering toria the university of elano I champagne urbana, that's got an amazing device, which is about the size of a banda IT goes on the clover als and IT uses sound waves pinned into the body to measure citation. I think about this for a moment.

This is being used in the military where, let's say you're leading an Operation or something, people are getting shot, shot in on a laptop. You can see where the bullet entry points are. Are people dead? Are they bleeding out? You know, entry exit points.

Um you can get if take IT out of the battlefield scarier, you can get breathing body position twenty four hours a day. There's so much that you can do looking at cavitation. So these same sorts of devices are on twelve. Our blue tooth could be used to send all sorts of maybe every time you're just used to hold your hand.

I'm not a good gambler so I only play that when I go to this is because just long, boring and you know games we get you get some good mileage of each and of each run usually but the um you know maybe every time you're supposed to hold a person gets sort of all like a stomach since ing because this is stimulated vegas a little bit get a little bit of so doesn't have to be more code IT can be yes, no, maybe you right, I can maybe no. IT can be Green, red, yellow types, signaling IT doesn't have to be very sophisticated to give somebody a significant advantage. Haven't thought about this in detail before this conversation.

but oh, others in immensely pope fly.

No, I don't follow the gambling .

tendered to be one of the greatest poke plays of all time. The generally he's just incredibly good but he got um there is a big case where he was accused of cheating and proof and it's not really cheating, which is what's really fascinating is IT turns out so he plays poker. Texas hold mostly but all kinds of poker IT turns out the the grid and the back of the cards is often printed a little bit imperfectly.

And so you can uh use the assembly of the imperfections to try to figure out certain cards. So if you play and you remember that a certain card is like, I think the in that deck that he was accused of an eight and nine or slightly different is symmetry wise. So you can now um ask the deal actually to rotate IT to check the symmetric.

So you would ask the deal to rotate the card to see that there's to detect the a symmetry of the back of the card. And now he knows which cards are eight and nine s and or like clear to be eight and nine. And he was used using that information to play to play poker and win a lot of money, but it's just a slate advantage.

And his cases and in fact, the George found this that he's not actually cheating. But it's not right. You can use this kind of extra formation. So IT is fascinating. You can discover these little holes and games if you pay cost of attention.

Yeah, it's it's fascinating. And I think that you I didn't watch that clip about the potential of cheating event and chess and and and the fact that a number of chess players admit to cheating at some point in their career. Very, very interesting.

What is online? So online cheating is easier, right? When you're playing online cheating in a game where the machine is much Better than a human, it's very difficult to prove that you're human. And that applies, by the way, another really big things in social media.

The boss to if you're running a social media company, you have to do what the boss and they become one of the really exciting things in a machine learning and artificial intelligence, to me, is the the very fast improvement of language models. So new al networks that generate text, the interpret text, generate from text, images and all that kind of stuff. But that's you're now going to create incredible bots that look awful ly a lot like humans at least then I can be those crypt .

to bots that seem to populate my comment section when I post anything on in um actually delete those even though they add to the comment roster and if just they bother me so much ah I spend you know at least ten fifteen minutes on each post just the leading those I don't know what they need to do. I'm not interested in um those whatever IT is they're offering. Um speaking of non boss, i'm can assume that all the questions are not from box. There are a lot of questions here, more than ten thousand and good. I'll just take a few of working from top to bottom.

What ideas have you been restless with lately? And I think about the the company has won. But as I scroll to the next, what are some others or some .

of the things we talked about, which is.

The ideas of how to understand what is true, what is true about a human being, how to review that, how to review the conversation, how to chAllenge that properly, that at least so understanding not the region, so that that applies to everybody from downtown m to light putin.

Also another idea is there is a deep distrust of science in trying to understand the growing distrust, the science, trying to understand what's the role of those of us that have foot in science, fc community, how to be, how to regain some of that trust. Also there is we talked about the um how to find and how to find there, how to how to find and how to maintain a good relationship. I think that's really been I i've never felt quite as lonely as I have this year with ukraine.

It's just like so many times I would just lay there and just feeling so deeply alone because I felt that my home, not my home, like literally because i'm an american I love. I'm a proud american at all, dying american. But my home, in the sense of my degeneration ally, my family's home, is now going, is now, has been changed forever.

There's no more being proud of being from the former russia. Ukraine isn't just. It's now a political message to say if, if to show your pride.

And so it's been extremely lonely within that world. If with all the things i'm pursuing, how do you find a successor has been tough. But obviously, and there's a huon's of technical ideas with the start up of like how the how you make this .

thing work well, that the relationship topic is when we talked little bit about in last time, we we touched on a million little bit more detail. Um we're going to come back to that. Um so i've i've made a note here um what or who inspired likes you to wear a suit every time you podcast? That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that.

So they took to answer that question. One is a suit and two is a black suit and black tie. Because I used to do I used to have more variety, which is like there is a black too, but I would sometimes do a red tie and a blue tie.

But that was mostly me trying to fit into society because, like varieties, you're supposed to have some variety. What inspired me is at first was a general culture that that doesn't take itself seriously terms of how you present yourself to the world. So in academia, in the tech world, just like google, everybody was wearing like pajama as and the very relaxed in attack.

I don't know how IT is in the signs in chemistry, but in computer science, everybody was like very, I mean, very relaxed in terms of the self they wear. So I wanted to try to really take myself seriously and take every single moment serious, everything I do seriously. And the suit made me feel that way.

I don't know how IT looks, but made me feel that way. And I think in terms of people I look up to the war suit that made me think of that is, is probably Richard fine. I see on derful human being as I seem as like the epidemic class and humor and brilliance, you know, obviously, I can never come close that kind of van, you know, be able to simply explain really complicated ideas and to have humor and wait.

But definite part to that. And then there's just the, you know, madman, that whole era of the fifties, the class inss of that. There's something about a suit that both removes the importance of fashion from the character.

You see the person, I think, not to, I have forgot who said this might be like cow. Somebody like this is that, you know, you you are wear a shabby dress and everyone sees the dress. You wear A A beautiful dress and everybody sees the woman. So in that sense, I correctly, but not good. I .

think .

there's a sense in which a simple, classy suit allows people to focus on your character and then do so like with the full responsibility. That like this is why, yeah.

I love that and I I love what you said just prior to that. You know, my father, who again is always asked me why I don't dress formally, like you do, always said to me, growing up, if you overdress slightly, at least people know that you took them seriously. So it's a time, a sign of respect for your audience to in my eyes um someone asked, is there an A I equivalent of psychodeviant s and I am assuming they mean, um is there something that machines can do for themselves in order to alter their neural circuitry through unconventional activation patterns?

yes. Obviously, well, I don't know exactly how second was work, but you you can see that with the all the division models now with delhi in stable diffusion generates from text art and there's is basically in a small injection of noise into a system that has a deep representation of visual information.

So is able to convert text to art in in introducing uncertainty into that a noise that's kind of maybe I could see there's a parallel as I col x and is able to create some incredible things from from a conceptual understanding of a thing. IT can create incredible art that no human, I think, could at least easily created through a bit of introduction of randomness. Random does a lot of work in the machine learning world just enough.

There are a lot of um request of you for relationship, a lot of requests about statistics about you data about you specifically flipping past those. What was the hardest built to achieve in your jiu? I would have assumed the black belt. But is that actually true?

No, I mean everybody has a different journey through you just as people. Now for me the black bell was the ceremonial bill, which is not usually the case, because I thought the words like, I trained twice a day, for I don't know how many years, seven, eight years, I competed on stop I computer against people much Better than me. I computer against many, and beaten many black bolls and Brown balls.

I think for me personally, the hardest built was the the Brown beat. Because for people who know you, just the the size of terminate divisions for blue bells and probables is just humongous, like worlds. When I computed at words that was like hundred and forty people in the division, which means you have to win, I forget how many times, but seven, eight, nine times in a row, tomato.

And so I just had to put in a lot of work during that time. And especially for competitors and structures usually really make you earn about. So to earn the purple bells, extremely difficult, extremely difficult.

And then to earn the Brown belt means I had to compete nonstop against other purple bells, which are Young. You talk about, like the people are usually compete, are like twenty three, twenty four, twenty five years old. They are like shit, incredible cardio.

They can for some reason are in their life where they can no kids, nothing. They can dedicate everything to this pursuit that they're training two, three, four times a day. Died is one point you're going. And for me, because they're usually bigger and tolling me and just more aggressive actual good athletes, yeah, I had to go to through a lot of words to turn that around well.

but then think.

yeah, I should .

I try you? I did the one class, but I I really want to embrace IT.

As you know, many pursues leggit are different for doing your twenty years authorities and later it's like it's a different you can you know, you know you can have a bit of an eagle in your twins. You can have that fire under you, but you should be sort of more than like and wise and patient later in life. Well.

one would hope that the wisdom I think .

rogan is still a meat head. He's still goes hard and crazy and he's still super competitive on that. So some people can. And just as somebody like that.

whatever they're doing, they're doing something right because they're still in IT. And that super impressive. There were uh far too many questions to to ask all of them but um several, if not many, asked a highly appropriate question for where we are in the ark of this discussion and this is one admitted that you ask in your podcast um all the time but I get the great pleasure of being in the the question ask her seat today and so what is your advice to Young people?

So I just gave a lecture in my tea and the amount of love I got there is incredible. And so of course, what you who you're talking to is usually undergrads, maybe Young graduate student. And so there one person did ask for advice, uh, as a question.

At the end, I did much of kuni. So my answer was, uh, that the world will tell you to find a work I baLance to a to a explore, to try to. Try different fields to see what you really connect with, you know variety, general education of that kind of stuff.

And I said in your twenties, I think you should find one thing you're passionate about and work harder than than you worked at anything else in your life and if IT destroys you, destroys you, that's advice for your chinese I don't know how university true that advice but I think of these give that a chance like sacrifice, real sacrifice towards um I think you really care about and work yourself that said, i've met so many people and I am starting to think that advice is is best applied, your best tried in the engineer disciplines, especially programme. I think there's a bunch of disciplines in which you can achieve this is much fewer hours, is much more important to actually have a clarity of thinking and great ideas and have an energetic mind like the ground in certain disciples does not produce great work. I just know that in computer science and programming, IT often does.

Some of the best people ever that have built system, have programmed systems, are usually like the john carmack kind people that drinks soda, eat pizza and program you know eighteen hours a day. So I don't know actually you have to, I think really go discipline specific. So my advice applies to my own life, which has has been mostly spent behind the computer.

And for that ah you really, really had to put in the hours. And what I mean is essentially IT feels like a grind. I do recommend that you should at least try in your own that if you interview some of the most accomplished people ever, I think if they're honest with you, they are going to talk about their twins as as a journey of a lot of pain and a lot of really hard work.

I think what really happens, uh, unfortunately, is a lot of those successful people later in life will talk about work like about so say, you know what I learned from that process is that is really important um you know to get uh like sun in the morning health to have good relationships. This exactly but like I think you have forgot, those people have forgotten the value of the journey they took to that lesson. I think work live baLance is best learn the hard way.

I, my, my, my own perspective, there's certain things you can only learn in the hard way. And so you should learn that the hard way. yeah. So that does the different advice. And I should say that I admire people that work card if you want to get on my good side, I think are the people that give everything they got towards something that doesn't actually matter what IT is, but towards achieving um excEllence in the thing that's that's the highest think that we can reach force human being I think is excEllent at a thing I love IT.

Well speaking of excEllence, ts at a thing whether not its teaching IT, mmt or the podcast or the the company that resides in the near future that you create, I once again, i'm speaking for an enormous number of people that know excEllence. And hard work certainly are woven through everything that you do. Every time I sit down with you, I begin and finish with such an immense feeling of joy and appreciation and gratitude.

And IT wouldn't be a lex freeman podcast, or in case of a lexman being a guess on a podcast, if the word love weren't mentioned at least ten times. So the feelings of gratitude for all the work you do for taking the time here today to to share with us what you're doing, your thoughts, your insights, your um what you're perplexed about and and what drives you and and your callings and I read at home, yes, please, he was trying to cut me off. I was getting along.

No, no, no. This is I think good about this reason is one of my favorite rubber frost bomb. And I, because I wrote several essays on IT, as you do, because they think is a popular one that's read in.

So essays being, like trying to interpret poetry and one that sticks with me, mean both its calm beauty, but in the seriousness of what he means, because I ultimately think it's the no, this, so stopping by woods on a snower evening, I think it's ultimately a human being, a man asking the the old sister the outcome of question of why live. I think this poem, even though IT doesn't seem like IT, is a question of a man contending with suicide and choosing to live whose woods these are. I think I know his house is in the village, though he will not see me stopping here to watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must then kick queer to stop without a farmhouse near between the woods and frozen lake, the darkest evening of the year. He gives his harness bells a shake to ask if they're some mistake. The only other sounds, the sweep of easy wind and downing flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep, a mouse to go before I sleep. The woods representing the darkness, the comfort of the woods representing death. And he is a man choosing to live.

And I think about that often inspires ing my dark, dark moments your promise to keep. Thank you for having me, Andrew, your beautiful human being. I love you, brother.

I love you, brother. Thank you for joining me today from my discussion with doctor lex freedman and special thanks to doctor lex freedman for inspiring me to start this podcast. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe our youtube channel.

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