The Sunday Story: So you want to be an influencer?
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There was a time when if you asked a kid what they wanted to be when they grow up, they'd choose from a list of well-worn professions, right? Firefighter, astronaut, doctor, pilot. I wanted to be a lawyer for crying out loud. These days, if you ask that question to teenagers, you're likely to hear this answer. Influencer. Maybe like influencing as a side job. Because when I was younger, I wanted to be a YouTuber. I'm a small streamer. I have like a Twitch channel. Influencing. It's the new hot profession.

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First. And today I'm joined by Waylon Wong, host of The Indicator from Planet Money. Waylon and her colleagues have put together a special series about the influencer industry, how it got started, why it's such a desirable career path for younger people, and how they actually make money at it.

Waylon, hey, how's it going? Great. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, I'm super excited to talk to you about all this. So I hear this word, I'm totally aging myself. I understand that I am. But influencer, it's like everywhere in the ether, right? So I wonder if we can just start with the basics. What exactly is the definition of a social media influencer? Because I feel like it could be

pretty broad and subjective. Yeah. And so the way I like to think about it or the way that we thought about it for the series was an influencer is someone who is earning money or aspires to earn money from the content they put online. And that could be a variety of platforms, right? It could be TikTok, Twitch, Instagram, you name it.

I like how you distinguish someone earning money or aspiring to. So they can call themselves an influencer even if they're not actually influencing yet. Yeah, that's the interesting thing is there's a lot of people who want to do this as a career and maybe they haven't gotten that

first brand deal yet, but they're going for it. They're building their audience and they're hoping to get noticed enough so that a brand might come in and say, hey, will you showcase our product on a video and we'll pay you some money? And then that's how you get the ball rolling on becoming a professional influencer.

So let's talk about how this has evolved because it used to be back in the old days that, you know, if someone wanted to be an independent content creator, blogs were all the rage, right? So how did it evolve from there?

Yeah, so I interviewed this researcher named Emily Hund, and she really starts the story of the modern influencer industry with the Great Recession and with bloggers. So if you think about 2008, 2009, you have a lot of young people graduating into a lousy job market. And this is also an era where you've got the first iPhone, so that puts a camera in everyone's pocket. You have social media like Facebook and Tumblr that are free to sign up, very easy to use.

And so this combination of economic precarity plus, quote unquote, free tools that would enable blogging as a way of not just self-expression, but also building an audience online that maybe could be monetized, that gave rise to bloggers, which then paved the way for influencers.

And I talked to a woman named Beth Monsell. So in 2009, she was a recent college grad working a low wage job and she started posting about budget friendly meals on Facebook. Then she turned that into a blog called Budget Bites and she was able to monetize her blog by selling ads on her website.

I remember the first time that I earned like $35 in a month. And I was like, oh, that's my groceries for the week. So that's great. Wow. I just want to point out her groceries are super cheap. No, I know. She was on a budget, but still, yeah, the halcyon days of $35 covering your groceries. Right.

But do go on. Well, so Beth actually has been doing budget bites this whole time. She still does it full time. And she's branched out to TikTok and Instagram. And she just hired her first full time employee. Wow. I have been working past burnout levels for years. And I was like, OK, if the blog is going to survive and if I'm going to survive, I have to hire people. So I did. And I'm really glad.

Okay, so are you going to tell me Beth morphed from being a blogger into becoming an influencer? You know, what's really interesting is I asked Beth how she felt about the title of influencer or what she calls herself because the term influencer can be a little polarizing. And she prefers to think of herself as basically running a digital media company.

But you could consider her part of this influencer industry because she does make money from the content that she puts online. An influencer as a term really starts to supplant blogger as the term du jour in, I would say, like the 2010s.

And then today it is a full blown industry. So you've got talent agencies, training courses, conferences, networking events. And Rachel, do you know the proper question to ask an influencer when you first meet them? The proper question to ask it? I mean, I guess I would. Oh, this is snarky. But I would I would want to know, like, why do you think you're so awesome that you need to influence people?

Okay, maybe that can be like the second question. Okay, I'll ease into that one. Okay, you tell me, Waylon, what is the first question? Well, my colleague Robert Smith went to this influencer networking event in Brooklyn, and he discovered that the question to ask, the opening line is, what is your niche?

Because I guess that's going to determine how successful you are if you have one. Yeah, and so that's what Robert asked an influencer that he ran into at this event. My name's Onyx. I am 25 years old. Right now, I make videos about gaming as well as product reviews. Excellent. So Onyx Clark is really just starting out with a niche in video games. They record themselves playing their favorite video games, and then they're hoping to get enough viewers to start making some money at it.

I mean, this seems sort of like a dicey industry. I mean, doesn't Onyx need kind of a regular income?

Yeah, you know, Onyx has done some teaching and right now is looking at work in the nonprofit sector. It's also worth noting they are getting some parental pressure. My family are immigrants. I'm the only one born here in the U.S. So a lot of them are just like, what are you doing? But I feel like not taking a chance on yourself is really the thing that I like. That's worse, honestly.

OK, so what kind of chance do they have when when a young person or anyone stakes their claim on getting into this industry? Yeah, this is one of the big driving questions that we wanted to dig into for our series. So we spoke to Leah Haberman. She teaches social media and influencer marketing at UCLA Extension. And we asked her about this career path. And this is how she framed it.

you know, they're looking at big creators, big influencers out there that already have these traditional businesses and are very successful. So I think that we now see a roadmap to being able to make money at what you're doing. So when Leah Haberman runs her classes for influencers, she tells them what you're really doing is starting your own business. So you have to treat it like a business. You have to think about your product and who your customers are. Okay. I have so many more questions. We're talking to way

to Waylon Wong from NPR's podcast The Indicator about their new series on the influencer economy stay with us we'll be right back

We're back with Waylon Wong, reporter and host of The Indicator from Planet Money, talking about the business of being a social media influencer. So, okay, Waylon, I am curious about the economics of this entire industry. Oh, for sure. We were also so curious. This is one of the biggest questions we wanted to get into. So we found an influencer willing to share about how much she actually makes and spends. Her name is Kendall Hoyt. She's a fashion influencer with a vintage goth vibe.

I love it. Vintage goth vibe. So maybe that's her niche. Yep, that would be her niche. Exactly. Now you know what to ask her if you run into her at a networking event. That's my first question.

Today I'm going to be showing you how to dress like a Vivienne Westwood model. First, put on a blouse. Any blouse. Doesn't matter. Then add either a corset or a vest to give off that Victorian feel. See, this is information we can use, right? Love it. Yeah. And Kendall has about half a million followers on TikTok. And here's where it might be helpful to think about, you know, is half a million followers a lot? In the industry, under 100,000 is considered a micro-influencer. Okay.

And then over a million, you're kind of reaching celebrity status. So Kendall at 500K, she's kind of right in the middle.

And she told us she spends about $200 a month on clothes. She also gets clothes gifted to her by brands. Then she has these capital expenses, right? Her laptop, her tripod. That adds up to another couple thousand dollars. And then, of course, there's the time investment. So she does have a full-time job in advertising. And that means that she does her influencing on the side. And it takes about 10 to 15 hours a week. Ah, but this is a side gig. So do we know what she's making? Yeah.

Yes. So my colleague Darian Woods asked her, what does she make? And she said in 2022, she made about $15,000. Right.

Right. So it's a side hustle because I imagine it's hard to make it a full time paying career. Yeah, especially if you live in New York like Kendall does. So we spoke to Ryan Hilliard about what it takes to really make a living at influencing. He's a general manager at a company called Hype Auditor, which analyzes influencer data. And he told us you need like a lot of followers to have the comfortable cash flow.

There's kind of a magic number, and that's probably close to that. I have a million followers and I can do this for a living. And then only about 1% of all influencers make it to that top level because the competition is so intense. And then Ryan Hilliard points out that earnings can really vary too. It depends on things like how loyal your followers are, whether they're actually clicking on your links and what platforms you're on.

So I don't have to pay, right, to click on someone's video and learn how to dress like Vivian Westwood or some other content. So is this all advertising? Like how do these influencers actually get paychecks? Yeah, there's a few big categories of how influencers get paid. The main source would be from sponsored posts or SpawnCon. So this is when an influencer gets... SpawnCon, you did not say that. That's a thing. I said it unironically too. How about that? Okay.

So SpawnCon is where an influencer gets paid to showcase, you know, like a face cream or a new purse or a pair of shoes. Kendall Hoyt says she charges $4,000 for a single TikTok post. Whoa. So SpawnCon is like big category number one. Another way influencers make money is through what's known as an affiliate link.

This is where you click on a link in the influencer's profile, right? That's right. So the link might go to a retailer's website and the influencer gets a cut of that sale or maybe they publicize a specialized offer code and then they get a cut that way. And then there's another big way that they can earn money and that is by providing exclusive content for subscribers. So earlier you were like, oh, I don't know

I don't have to pay, right? And normally you don't, but there is like- But I could. You could, yeah. This is one way that influencers try to make money as well.

And, you know, the thing to remember is that all of this takes like a lot of work. Ryan Hilliard, who is this analyst, says influencers with large followings still have to spend something like 30 plus hours a week just managing content and their brand relationships. Like you might be cold emailing brands you want to work with. You're reviewing your contracts. You're negotiating your rates. My colleague Robert Smith spoke with an influencer named Jalen Baden, and she confirmed, yes, it's a tough

a ton of work. I do love my spreadsheets. I keep track of all of the brands that I've worked with, the amounts that were paid, the contract terms, just so I kind of have a running list to refer back to. And it's just helpful to keep everything in one place.

Jalyn used to work at an investment firm before she started doing videos. And she said she learned business skills like reading a contract and negotiating prices or how to write a business email. And this has all been really helpful for being a full-time influencer. And Jalyn, on average, charges around $5,700 for a video. Wow. I know. And she estimates that for her time, about 60% of it is fun stuff. Yeah.

The Gleam battery toothbrush has me feeling bougie on a budget. It has soft bristles, gives me a powerful clean, and it fits my bathroom aesthetic. Affordable luxury is how I'm moving. Gotta keep it gleaming simple. So that's like the fun stuff. And then the other 40% is like desk work and taxes, like the boring stuff. That is like a very non-glamorous side of this business.

Yeah, speaking of boring stuff, but very necessary. What about, I don't know, benefits, a retirement plan, health insurance? Do these exist in the influencer business?

So the Bureau of Labor Statistics doesn't currently have a lot of good data on the industry itself. And influencers don't have a strong voice as a collective. So there's not a lot of bargaining power to speak of or even consistency on rates. And they're really living this freelance life. So, you know, 401k plan, health insurance, that stuff is not necessarily a given.

So that seems to be something that you'd have to calculate, right? That's a downside of the profession. That is a downside, yeah. And it's not the only one. We spoke to one influencer named Lydia Keating. I'm a content creator, or if you'd like to call it an influencer, but I prefer the term content creation. It just seems like a little more respectable.

So Lydia lives in Rhode Island and she makes fitness and lifestyle content. But actually, when my colleague Adrienne Ma talked to her, she was in Austria. And then when Adrienne asked her if she was over there for work or pleasure, she had this interesting answer. Kind of both. And that's always kind of a weird thing in my life now that like anytime I decide, oh, I want to do something for fun.

it gets tangled up with like, oh, and that could also be like a really good content opportunity. Yeah, I see that. So yeah, a big downside of influencing is this blurred line between work and life. And Adrienne also talked to a woman named Charlotte Stavrou. She runs an influencer marketing agency in the UK called Seven Six. And she had some real talk about the life of an influencer. One thing I would say about being an influencer is there comes a point, right?

where it's not as fun as it was. So at the beginning, when you start off, you get invited to lots of events, you get lots of things gifted to you for free. You're, you know, the hot ticket of the moment sometimes, and it's very exciting. But then when someone else comes along who's also great and maybe hit a trend and maybe did something that made them bigger, then you might move over and then you're fighting for

That seems exhausting. Right? And then Charlotte pointed out yet another dark side to influencing, which is bias and discrimination. Okay, tell me more about that. Well, Charlotte's agency found a roughly 20% pay gap between white creators and creators of comics.

of color. And some of that might be chalked up to follower counts, but surveys also show that influencers do believe race and ethnicity play a part in how much they get compensated. Adrian spoke to a Black dance influencer, Ronald Michelle, he goes by Ronnie Boy, and he said that he was once paid less than a white influencer for the same marketing campaign, even though their followings were basically the same. I feel like

There is racism in the industry. And because of that, that makes us have to work extra hard to gain what is easily accessible to other white creators. How do you feel about that? Honestly, it sucks, you know, and it makes you just want to learn the game.

and then learn the game smart to where the game can't use me. He sounds savvy. He sounds like he's up for it. Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, I think it just takes a lot of going into this industry, you know, like eyes wide open, you know, to figure out if this is for you. And that brings us to kind of one final downside. It's something kind of poignant that influencer Lydia Keating told Adrienne. The truth about this job of being a content creator is just,

or my version of it but I think this is true for a lot of content creators it's a lonely it's a lonely type of work it's just you and your phone to be a content creator is to lack community that seems so ironic though because the definition of doing what you do is having a community having a following at least but it's like a community that I don't even feel like I'm part of in a way

That sort of just makes me sad. But it's also I hear in there just the reality of work, right? Even something so exciting is just promoting the latest face cream that you think is really awesome. I mean, any work just becomes a grind after a while. Yeah. And, you know, Adrian said something really interesting when we were discussing some of our reporting. He said maybe this loneliness that Lydia is experiencing.

talking about. Is this just a kind of loneliness that is inherent to like American work culture, right? So it's like, if you're an influencer, you're not immune to maybe feeling isolated. And is that more of an issue with American work culture than with being an influencer, which I think is interesting food for thought. Yeah. Waylon, before I let you go, is there just anything that particularly struck you as you were doing all this research? Yeah, I think for

For me, one thing that I found really interesting, especially talking to this researcher, Emily Hund, is that, you know, this is basically just the form that advertising is taken now. So big brands are really invested in influencers and influencer marketing. They dedicate resources to it. And Emily points out that...

The influencer industry was kind of born out of economic precarity during the Great Recession. And now you have this entire generation of people like Gen Zers who are also kind of taking up this mantle of, well, maybe if the systems aren't working for us, we can kind of make our own way in the process.

They've like built up this entire industry. They have kind of created this future that's very diffused. You know, you think about like all of the people out there making videos. Some of them go viral. Some of them you never hear about. But this like collective force of just creative talent and a lot of these videos are super fun. Like I get lost in TikTok sometimes. There's so much interesting stuff out there. All of it kind of like adding up to a real kind of culture changing force.

Well, you have changed my mind. I'm going to admit that. I went into this conversation with a little bit of like a secret eye roll. Oh, you're right. They're upending this industry, marketing and advertising. And you know what? Good for them. Good for them. That's right. Waylon, this has been so fascinating. Thank you so much for talking about this new series and bringing us all this reporting and conversations. We appreciate it. It was absolutely my pleasure.

You can search your podcast app for Indicator Influencers to listen to all five episodes of the series. The Indicators Influencers series was produced by Corey Bridges. It was fact-checked by Sierra Juarez and Dylan Sloan. Emily Kinslow is the Indicator Podcast Coordinator. Viet Le is the Senior Producer and Kate Kunkanen edits the show.

This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. The Sunday Story is produced by NPR's Enterprise Storytelling Unit. Our supervising producer is Liana Simstrom, and Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Rachel Martin. Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.