The 3 Tools You Need to Master Arguments Now, Plus the #1 Way to Diffuse One! With Jefferson Fisher
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Today, you're going to learn how to master arguments in your life. You asked for it and backed by popular demand, communication phenom and trial attorney Jefferson Fisher is here to talk with you and me today about three tools to help you master arguments and conversations, plus the number one way to diffuse an argument and the one phrase that immediately shuts down a toxic conversation.

Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a fifth generation award winning attorney, writer and speaker. His work has gained him millions of followers all over the world through short, simple, practical social media videos teaching people how to argue less and talk more. Whether it's handling a heated conversation, dealing with a difficult personality or standing your ground with

Jefferson helps you communicate during life's everyday arguments and conversations, and his brand new book called The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More is out now. Jefferson says we can change everything about your life by what you say next. And you and I are in for a treat because Jefferson has stepped away from his busy legal practice. He got on an airplane. He flew here to be with you and me today.

Whether you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family. Remember, this episode is not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too.

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Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.

Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. I'm honored to be here. I'm so excited you're here. Wow. What has happened with you, with your advice, with your videos, it has become a phenomenon. Thank you. Very sweet. Thank you. Yeah, it's truly been a blessing. And right now I'm just holding on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm excited. So much to dive into today. I am so excited.

So excited to talk to you about arguments. How we master arguments and communication and the tools that we can apply to master arguments. You talk about, you know, one of the most powerful ways to diffuse an argument, the

the one phrase that shuts down a toxic conversation. And I want to ask you about three tools though, that you, that you teach that I think are so powerful. Um, you know, your new book, the next conversation, uh, that I've read cover to cover. It is just packed.

packed with things we can apply to our life right now. But I want to ask you about specifically, you know, when it comes to mastering arguments and conversations, because we all have them and some of us have them, but avoid them. Some of us don't want to deal with them. Some of us don't know how. Some of us let them take us down. Some of us let them, you know, feel deeply personal. We don't know how to handle them. Maybe we didn't learn from our parents or we didn't learn from how we were raised or, you know, school and, you know,

I think that these are the tools that can fundamentally change all the relationships in your life. And so three tools you talk about when it comes to mastering arguments and conversations. Can you talk about conversational breath, quick scan, and a small talk? Yes. These are all about saying it with control. So when you think about

a conversation that turns into an argument. Like it's just that sense that the tone didn't sound right. I don't like how they said that. And all of a sudden things start to spur in your mind and maybe your nostrils start to flare and you start to kind of bow up a little bit. Or somebody says a word that's not kind and you start to spiral. Did they just say what I think they said? When those things kind of happen, thoughts start to speed up.

And so does your breath. Your breath gets faster, like you're ready to run. That's your fight or flight. You're ready to run. Or you're ready to hurt. So you really want to say that hurtful word. You want the word to cut because you're wanting that threat of whatever they said or whatever they did

to go away they just undermine me your body says i don't like that hey uh i don't like that and all of a sudden you start to get defensive a conversational breath the power of it is it allows you to sink back down to make sure that your emotions stay in check or you don't feel emotionally flooded it always keeps your logical analytical side of your brain in motion same thing with

Navy SEALs in the military, they do tactical breathing. So what a conversational breath does, it takes advantage of the research that's already out there on what they call a physiological sigh. And so it's injecting a sigh into your breath without sounding like one, but you get the benefits of it. And how you do it is you breathe in, and at the very top, you breathe in just a little bit more, one second, and then you release.

And so always the exhale needs to be a little bit longer than the inhale. So it's typically a two second inhale and one second at the top. And then you got about a five to seven or five, six second exhale. And you just do that often. That's going to be your first breath that you take. That's going to allow you to continue to keep your analytical side engaged before you go into that argument. It's going to keep you calm every single time. So that's the power of a conversational breath. It's like,

but you never have to go up for air. It allows you to stay locked in in the zone. So it changes your body in an argument. It takes advantage of what you know about your body. What do we know? We know that we engage in fight or flight. You get that threat, that trigger, and all of a sudden, I'm on fire. The breath does. It's the number one way of pulling yourself down and saying, no, no, no, there's no threat. I'm not going to be emotionally threatened.

overloaded in this moment, I'm going to make sure I'm locked in. And that's what happens when you say calm, you know, the person goes, starts a rapid, rapid, rapid, and they try to draw you in. That's the, that's where the power is, is you're allowing yourself to stay calm in that moment. And somebody being calm in the face of conflict is a very, it's an impressive moment when you see people that are calm in the face of fear or face of stress or

It's a sign that this person is emotionally regulated. They know how to keep themselves in check. This is so good because in a leadership role, if you're leading a team, if you're head of the family, if any of it, right? And you are the one that's able to keep your calm in these situations, people automatically respect you and they automatically see you as the person to turn to for leadership. Yes.

And so much of our, for many of us, our humanness

you know, we react so fast. Like, what did you say? Wait, what? Did you, you know, I mean, it's just so easy to do it. And so, so Jefferson, so this tool, this tool is big. Okay. Okay. Because this is how you get your power back. And this is how you don't lose your power in an argument, like when it's just getting started. So when you feel like an argument's happening or it's transpiring, you feel it brewing, do you do this right away? You just take

And breath, you go in for a few seconds. Can you teach us one more time? I'm going to do it with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's going to be two seconds. Do it with us at home. Okay. One second at the top and then about six seconds out. And it's allowing you to pull it out. If you can, you try and do it through your nose because it's smaller nasal passages. Breath goes out slower. That calms you down. So it's a way of when you're mouth breathing all the time, you breathe in more oxygen and

and it triggers you a little bit more. It kind of keeps you in a low-grade state of anxiety when you're always breathing with your mouth. Breathing through your nose allows you to slow it down. So when you ever see somebody that they're unhappy and they kind of have their nostrils flaring, and they go like they're trying to, their body is in that moment without them even knowing it, try to calm them down through their breathing. And so when you're able to concentrate on your breath, it truly, it's the number one thing, Jamie, that you can do

to calm yourself in the moment before you escalate. Because what happens if you don't take that breath is exactly what you said.

It's the excuse me. Did you say and you start to just boom you're done you're gone now you're in fighter now. Yeah, it's extremely hard differently Yeah, you've lost your power and you're not the same person. You're not the same person That's what I call the ignition phase as soon as things start to turn to friction and they combust you're now ignited and now your your pupils they'll dilate and

You ever seen that? They'll dial it to make sure that you're focused in. So your focus narrows so you can concentrate on what's around you. Make sure it's your body saying, do I need to run? Is there something under the bush? What we got? I mean, that's why your palms feel sweaty. All of a sudden you don't feel hungry because your body's suppressing any hunger to get you ready to run. Your heartbeat goes faster. That's why people, their voice will shake.

Their eyes were water. It's their body preparing them to get going. People who want to leave a conversation. This I know will resonate with anybody. You've been in that conversation on the phone and all of a sudden you just go, I just want out.

People who want to leave a room. People want to hang up the phone. It's the emotion. It's the overwhelm of their fight or flight going, get out of here. Get away from the threat. I just need to leave. So it's the same way with people. Let's say we have a couple that is they're not great at communicating when they're in fight or flight.

It is natural to want to pick up something and throw it. I mean, it's just what it is. And instead we do it with our words. The flip side of it is to run from that. Your flight is, I want to leave. I want to slam the door. I want to get away from them. I don't want to talk to them anymore. It's the same exact concept. You're just doing it with your words. So good. And the second one, second tool is,

you know, on this topic of mastering arguments, that's so good. Just that tool right there. Yeah. That's really, really good. And again, I love that we can just do it because you're taking your power back. You're not going into fight or flight and you're not going to, you're less likely to do things you regret. You're more likely to be able to unravel and resolve. And ask yourself questions like, where's this coming from? Hmm.

And that's a very powerful question to ask yourself when you're taking that breath. And it doesn't, when I say conversational breath and walking through you with it here, that's exaggerated. You easily can do it and it does not look at all like you're doing it. I use conversational breaths, that physiological sigh before I go speak. I might do it in a moment where I might be nervous. Using that as a way to just calm my nerves, I'll stop shaking because my body's

pumped up, excited. But it's a great time to ask yourself in moments of conflict, where is that coming from? To ask that from the other person in your mind when they make that comment. Where is that coming from? How do they feel threatened? What is threatening them? And that's the secret of saying it with control is that you not only get to notice these symptoms and what triggers you,

It's also showing you and revealing to you the signs in the other person that when you hear that raised voice from them, what it truly is, is a plea from their body to connect, to remove the threat. Mm-hmm.

Wow. So you can apply this to every type of situation in your day-to-day life. And then when you have clients on the stand, and do you prep them? Like, okay, when this other attorney comes after you, do you teach them this tool to not take the bait and just react and go somewhere they don't want to go? It's one of my proudest moments when I can see a client who...

who was struggling, getting nervous. They did not like it. I mean, what I do is I'm offering them to the wolves and for people to try to hurt their credibility, prove them wrong. And a lot of things are at stake. But when they take a breath and I walk it through them, I mean, it's always, we run through a list. And one of the things I'll have them repeat is, what's the first thing you do? And they say, my first word is my breath. To allow them, when they get that question from the opposing attorney, they're going to

breathe, they're not going to automatically engage because that's how you know that you're going to start to spiral unless you give it to them. But that's the power of just a conversational breath allows you to do a whole lot more.

All right, the second tool. There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life.

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And now more of this incredible conversation together. All right, the second tool, quick scan. Yes. Quick scan. Yes. So quick scanning is something that developed over meditating, which was new to me. And it was the ability to scan your body in real time. Often if I am getting worked up, it's because my shoulders are really tense. My jaw is, like I clench my jaw a lot.

um but i that's where i hold my stress or in my shoulders so you can tell things when your your fists are clenched and what we do is we ignore those symptoms so many times if you scan your body meaning you're right now if you just sat and go okay

I'm just going to breathe. What's my body telling me? Where's my discomfort? Maybe you had a pain in your back you didn't really realize. Do you start at your head and just kind of like, do you close your eyes or can you do it without anyone else knowing if you're like in a crowded room? Right. You can do it exactly where you are right now. Okay. Everyone at home, do this with us right now. You can do it. Teach us how to do this. Absolutely. You can do it right where you're sitting right now. So let's say even if you're driving, you can do it too.

It is the ability to start with your head and slowly scan down your body.

and you're going to be looking for where are you tight where are you holding your tension where are you where do you have your knots it might be in your jaw it might be behind your ears it might be in your your shoulders it might even be um sometimes in your your feet of how you're positioning yourself where is the stress coming from and what you need to do is find a word and it's going to come to you a promise is going to come to you you're going to find a word

of how you're feeling in this moment. Just take a second and think about it. What's the word that's coming to you in this moment? There's no right or wrong. And you know what? You don't even have to find a word if you don't want to. It's just you're expressing the feeling. Your body knows it. And once you have it, try to say it in your head. And when you do, relax your body right in that moment. And automatically, you're going to feel more in control

of your body, you're gonna feel more control of your mind. Because what you're doing is you're finding in that moment where the stress is, you're releasing it and you're labeling your emotions. What I say is when you can claim it, you control it. So when you can find that, for example, let's say I'm feeling tense or I'm feeling angry or impatient. I do this when I'm in the, I'm gonna say I'm at the grocery store, it's taking forever, which yeah.

A lot to be said there, but if I say, just scan my body, say, patients or inpatient, all of a sudden I'm now labeling what exactly I'm feeling in real time. And then I feel like, okay, it's separated from myself. I'm detaching from it. I am not de-feeling. I am only experiencing that feeling. And over time, what I've learned is...

You don't have to have this full top of the head to the bottom of the toes. The more you do it, the better you get at it. Like right now I can tell you where I'm feeling tension or I'm carrying my stress of all what's happening. And the more you understand where it's coming from, the better you're going to be able to ask questions about it because your body's hiding stress. As a wonderful book, The Body Keeps the Score. I mean, it's just this idea of your body knows stress.

where you're keeping it way better than you do. I would be the first to tell you that two years ago, if you said, hey, do you get stressed? Do you have anxiety? I'd say, no, no, I don't. In February of two years ago, I had my first panic attack and I thought I was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack because I was so convinced. And when the doctor came in, he goes, do you have anxiety? I said, no.

I remember looking at my wife, I'm like, tell him, I don't have anxiety. Cole's a cucumber. And she looked at him, she like nodded, like, yes, he does. So often your body is the one that keeps the stress,

You're convincing yourself otherwise. So doing a quick scan is a very easy, easy way that you can do it anytime, anywhere that's going to allow you to better recognize how you're feeling in that moment. That's so good. Let's just say you're in a room with a group and someone's doing something and you're getting so angry. You're about to say something or it's really bothering you. So in that moment, almost without anyone knowing it, you can just sort of scan your body, have that word,

which might be frustration or disbelief or betrayal or whatever it might be. And in your own mind, you're naming it. And then now you're sort of like able to observe it. You feel it in your body. You make the decision to sort of like,

release it if you can or at least acknowledge it right and now you're more in control about huh maybe right now in this moment i'm not going to roll my eyes at the person or i'm not going to get up and leave or i'm not going to say something i might regret you kind of do this tool so that you're in control yes and you can decide how am i going to respond you got it yeah in my mind i have um

a desk, like I have a desk, I have my file cabinets in my mind of what I like to do and think of with a quick scan. It's like I'm writing it down on a sheet of paper and I'm looking at it and then I'm making the choice to put it back down on the desk.

I said, I'm not carrying it. I'm not putting it with me. I'm not putting it in my pocket. I'm not wearing it. I have now observed it and go, huh, okay, that's anger. All right. And then I put it back down. And you leave it. And then you leave it. And it's not stuck on you. It's not in you. It's not with you. It doesn't mean that wasn't valid. It doesn't mean that it wasn't real, that I didn't feel it. Right. It's just what do you do with it? What do you do with it? Yeah. And it gives you your power. Exactly. It gives you your power back. It lets you say, okay, I've scanned it. I've looked at it. I don't need that right now.

Okay, the third tool, small talk. Oh, so small talks, what the power of that is, it's not like a, sounds like an affirmation, this idea of having a small talk with yourself. The difference between a small talk and affirmation is affirmation is more like, I am enough, I am worthy, where it's kind of this intrinsic thing. A small talk is a way to bring up who you want to be when you communicate.

And there are lots of different ways that you can have a small talk. What I found with my lessons that I teach, and I use small talks for myself. Well, first let me define it. A small talk is nothing more than a conversation that you quickly have with yourself. It can be two sentences. It can be one sentence. It can be a phrase. And I write them down at the top of my yellow legal pad in trial. And these are things like,

wait for the right pitch, let the facts speak for themselves. These things that UB Jefferson, like that is ways, these are ways that I am recalling in the moment, who do you want to be? How do I want to show up for myself? And how do I want other people to experience me? And I have done it and worked with every client that I have to work on their small talk of who do you want to be when you communicate? And one of my favorites

is I had a client who her small talk was, tell them, Doris. Tell them, Doris, which was a line that her grandfather would tell her grandmother when her grandmother was getting worked up about something. I was going to tell them something.

pull them up one side and down the other, tell them something. And so she wanted to have that confidence of her grandmother. And so she would say to herself in her mind, you know, no, tell them Doris. And so that gave her the confidence to say what she wanted to say. Small talk is something that you keep intrinsic to you.

You can write them down, but they're just little mementos or reminders of how you want to show up. They're not something to say out loud. You can put them on a billboard. They're not public. It's just what relates to you and how you want to react. Maybe it's something about not wanting to interrupt. Maybe it's something of wanting to make sure you stay in your ground the next time that somebody says that thing. It's an agreement with yourself of making sure that like a mini huddle,

This is how I'm going to show up every single time. And you do it by starting with a verb. So if it's stand up or speak slowly, like for mine was wait for the right pitch. Begin with a verb. Why a verb? Because it puts it into action. It makes it tangible. Verbs feel movement. So whenever you can use the power of language, use a verb. A verb is what's going to give you that little bit of a powerhouse.

power punch to say, no, I'm going to put this into motion. It's not more passive like an affirmation of I am worthy, I am enough. No, it is telendorus. It is, you know, stand your ground. These things that are going to allow you to use it. Like, for example, in taking it personally, a great one is put

put it down. I'd say, put it down, Jefferson. I use that all the time. I tell myself when somebody says something, I read a text or an email and I read it negative in my head and I'm ready to respond to them. Yeah. Put it down, Jefferson.

And so you see how that's connected to me looking at the paper and putting it on the desk? Yes, and putting it down on your desk. You got it. Yeah. That small talk means so much to you. Exactly. Yeah. And everybody listening has their own little nugget that they keep to themselves of what's important to them, what matters to them. Is it something with your family? Is it something that's connected to your values? Yeah.

that drives who you want to be, how do your legacy to play out. - So good, and it gives you that North Star. - It really does. - Right, in every moment. - Just a little mini pep talk with yourself.

That is so good. So everyone at home right now, think about what is your small talks, right? The ones that you want to have that you're going to like channel and tap into, like who you want to be, right? So like redirect. Yes. Redirect your focus in those moments. What I love so much about these three tools is they also just put you back in your power, right? They give you the power now to decide how I'm going to handle this argument or how I'm going to handle this conversation versus like,

you're in fight or flight and you don't even have control over what's about to happen. You got it. And you're about to repeat patterns in the past and all the things. And these three tools give you your power. I love, Jefferson, that you say you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to. Yes. And we get invited to a lot. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. You don't have to attend everything.

every argument you're invited to. And these three tools give you the decision, am I going to accept the invitation? Am I going to politely decline? Right, yeah. How are you going to RSVP? That's the power of saying it with control. Because first, with any communication,

You have to learn how to control yourself. Yes. And that's where that power is going to be. And when you can have that conversational breath to inject yourself with your analytical side and continue to speak in logic and control and keep yourself calm, you're able to quick scan your emotions. When you're able to have kind of a midi pep talk with yourself and you know where your North Star is, you can say it with confidence.

control and that exudes confidence in so many ways. And more often, it even allows you what I love about it. You just get to acknowledge it and see it in somebody else. Like when somebody yells at you, instead of concentrating on, I can't believe you would yell at me, what you hear is,

No, they're trying to push the threat away. So what are they threatened by? When somebody's yelling, like you see a wild animal, you might yell to make it go. You clap. You go, hey, get scared. I mean, that is the same exact thing. We yell to make the threat go away. So when you say it with control, you turn it into curiosity. Mm-hmm.

I love it. Remember, this episode is not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too. Make sure to pick up Jefferson's new book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less,

more. And check out his brand new Jefferson Fisher School of Communication. We'll link it in the show notes. And if you love today's episode too, well, my only ask is you please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening or watching it on, then give it a five-star review, and then share this episode with everyone you believe in.

Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. Just thank you so much for joining me. And before you go, I wanted to share some words with you that couldn't be more true.

You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. It's an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. And here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need.

Blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay as long as you like because you belong here. You are worthy. You are loved. You are love. And I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Do you struggle with negative self-talk?

Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit.

The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life. It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love.

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If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence, and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief.

And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me.

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If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. I am so excited for this book. You know why? Because it's going to save so many people. It's going to save people.

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