E. Jean Carroll and Sarah Longwell: Such a Bad Man
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All right. Hey, everybody. We've got a wild schedule today, given everything that's going on on the Hill. So I just want to kind of talk to you about the pod calendar, what you're going to be getting from me today and this week. Up first is E. Jean Carroll. And I got to tell you, she's a spitfire. Just finished that conversation. And that will be a nice tonic for your day. And so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

We did something a little different in segment two. I went live with Sarah Longwell to discuss the drama that was going on on the Hill with the BBB. As we were talking, all signs were pointing to the fact that Lisa Murkowski was going to fold and be the 50th vote with J.D. Vance as the tiebreaker that passed Trump's big fugly slut. And that happened just right after Sarah and I taped. But, you know, all of the context is

of that conversation was sort of based around what we expected, which was that Lisa Murkowski was in the end going to fold. Kind of crazy. After all of that, Murkowski gives a press conference later in the day that says that my hope is that the House is going to look at this and recognize we're not there yet. Lisa Murkowski voted for a bill she doesn't even think is done or good and gave the tiebreaker. It's just, it's unbelievable. And Sarah has a lot of

harsh words on that topic. So that's what we did in segment two. Wanted to make sure we got the news to you guys. And just one other update on all that. As stuff happens, we are doing breaking live takes more and more. And usually that stuff is going into the Bulwark Takes feed. So make sure you subscribe to that on your podcast player of choice. And then coming up this week, just so folks know and can plan, we've got a podcast tomorrow and Thursday. And then I'm on holiday.

I think you should go on holiday too. You know, the dailies, the people, those of you who, you know, stick with me every day. We appreciate you. Maybe use that 45 minutes to read or listen to an audio book or I don't know, have a glass of Rose, whatever. It's something to think about. So we're going to do a vacation for one week, one summer vacation, then I'll be back, um,

on July the 14th with Bill Kristol. So that's what you got. Doubleheader today. Two more podcasts after that this week. And lots happening. Stick around for E. Jean Carroll and Sarah Longwell. Appreciate y'all. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm delighted to be here up first with a person that wrote the

Ask E. Jean Carroll column for 27 years for Elle magazine. It's since moved to Substack and she also has a new book, Not My Type, One Woman Versus a President at Long Last. We've got E. Jean Carroll on the podcast. How you doing, girl? Oh, Tim, you are such a faithful reader of Ask E. Jean. I can just tell. You never missed a column. I know. I can tell.

It is so funny you start with that because I asked my friend Dan Savage, as a gay, I was more partial to the Dan Savage advice column, I must say. And I said, what should I ask a fellow advice columnist? And he said, you should ask E. Jean what you do if someone tells you they've been reading you for years and then asks you a question you've answered a hundred times already. So what do you do in that situation as an advice columnist?

Let's just say Dan Savage is one of the premier great advice columnists of all time. Okay. You couldn't have talked to anybody. As a matter of fact, he should be here.

Sitting here instead of me. No, Dan Savage. Well, I think he'd be happy to not be here because he wouldn't want Donald Trump touching him, I think. No, he would not. No, he would not. And Dan Savage would have gotten out of that dressing room faster than I would because he's in very good shape. I don't know.

Well, I don't know. You have that dog inside you, as they say these days, that maybe Dan doesn't. I don't know. I don't have a dog inside me. I have a cheerleader. A cheerleader? I have a cheerleader.

People can already tell. I said this yesterday at the very end. I said, we've got such a fun guest coming tomorrow. And then I said that, and I kind of caught myself because, you know, the book is about sexual assault. And so that's not really a fun thing to talk about. But the book is, it's fun. How did you manage to deal with all of this in such good spirits?

Well, Tim, I found myself in the middle of a high comedy. You know, have you been in a courtroom, Tim? You've been in a court. Yeah, I've been in a courtroom a couple of times. We're not going to do the details because my mother doesn't know about one of them. But yeah, I've been in a couple of courtrooms. I found myself surrounded by characters that not even Jonathan Swift could have created. It was so absurd and so bizarre that

I had to get it down. And when I started to write it down, when I started to take notes, when I spoke every night into my iPhone, the notes so I wouldn't forget, it was coming out funny. It was just coming out funny. Just the details were funny. So that was the truth. That's what I wrote. And...

I think people are really sort of liking it. I include myself among them. I have to say, I don't... I have to live the Donald Trump life, so I don't like reading about it. And so I was a little bit like, do I have to go relive this trial through the news? Oh, I know. And I open the book, and it begins...

with probably the most delightful list of consensual sex partners I've ever heard. Maybe the best list. This is how you start the book. And I was like, okay, now we're talking. A gentle lady's eight men total. Only one one-night stand. They include an Olympian, the man who opened the door for Neil Armstrong when he landed back on Earth, Chris Guest's brother, Dumbledore.

So many acclaimed actors. I think they might have an EGOT if you put them all together. What a list. Well, first of all, Alina Haba Esquire, the fabulous Alina Haba Esquire, who is Trump's most beautiful attorney. And she is, as you know, the acting attorney right now of New Jersey. She's stunningly beautiful.

She's I know you're frowning. I can see your phone. I'm frowning. No, she's not for me. She's highly intelligent.

Deliciously arrogant. She's highly intelligent? E. Jean, she was a parking lot attorney before she was deposing you. No, I don't care, Tim. I don't care. Listen, who got elected? Well, not E. Jean. Excuse me, not Alina, I mean. No, no. She got him elected because after the trial, every single day she went out and spoke to the reporters and said that everything that Judge Kathleen said she could not say. Anyway, Alina asked me

She said she hated to ask me, but could I possibly tell her everybody I've ever slept with? That was her question. Now, she did this. No, she never said that. Oh, yeah. She should have said that. She should have said that. Because I did not put the very man the whole deposition was about. I didn't put him on the list.

She did it to shame me. She did it to try to make me look like a floozy. But of course, it was the one thing I love talking about, right? I love my lover. And it was, I hear you, guff. I hear you. The dog also loves the lovers, apparently. May I stand up and let him out? Please. Yeah, of course. The listeners will love it. We hear you, guff. We hear you.

Yeah, going out. Jim and I here. You...

You had to ask about the lovers. It drives the dogs crazy. I did have to ask about the lovers because it made the book. It was such a great choice to start with it. I went from dreading reading the book to wanting to turn pages. I wanted to learn more, actually, about the eight men. Thank you. Well, one of them showed up at the book party. See, most of them, I am 81. So many of the men...

So do you. Thank you. I'm not 81, though. Yeah. Well, you will be. One came to the book party, and it was fabulous. And he was 88, and he walked in. He had all his brain. He was adorable. It was great seeing him. I introduced him to the crowd. So that was, yeah. So she meant to humiliate me. She meant to make me look like a cheap, hussy, slut person.

you know, skank and all the words of the, but no, oh my God. It was a moment. And Robbie Kaplan's. Your attorney. She was sitting next to me. Yes. The world's greatest civil rights attorney who was born with a lust for competition. She heard this list. And as I named them off, when I said,

Ben Vereen. She rocked forward in her chair and beamed at her notebook. It turns out at the end of the deposition, she says, and just for the record,

Ben Vereen is the first Broadway star I saw in my first Broadway play. So that ended the deposition. It was quite on a high note. Pippin. It was a great list. You didn't memory hole anyone? I mean, there was not a single miss on there. I mean, we all make bad choices sometimes. Yeah, I didn't. No, I'm picky, picky, picky. Yeah.

Very picky. I make bad choices, but not about men. I'm pretty good about men. Well, it was a wonderful way to start. And you're right about Robbie. She's the best. She argued the Windsor trial in front of the Supreme Court. I had her on the pod maybe last summer, and we talked a little bit about your case. So folks should go back and listen to that. She's unbelievable. Yeah. So I wanted to ask about Alina Haba. Yeah.

I'm pretty disappointed in your initial comments. You're not at all alarmed about the fact that this is the U.S. attorney? I mean, you seem a little bit more impressed with her than I was. No, she's highly intelligent. She seems vindictive, though. It's not a great trait for a U.S. attorney, I wouldn't think. No, no, she's full of revenge. Full of revenge. They're living and dying for revenge. She's Uma Thurman in Kill Bill.

Run a New Jersey. I understand this, but I can't do anything about it. All I could do, Robbie and I beat her. We beat her. Now, you would have enjoyed some delicious moments in court because Trump treated her with such disrespect in the courtroom. He snarled and snapped at her and told her what to do, told her what to say, told her to stay. He kept saying, stand up, stand up.

And then she would stand up and would have no idea why she was standing up because she didn't know what she was supposed to object to. No, he really tortured her. But she took it and then she stood up and then she defended him and defended him. And he would snarl and snap. It was, you know, she ate a mile.

of his garbage just to praise him. It was not pretty to be in the courtroom watching that. We'll see if you remember this, but you did pique my interest. You had a line in there where you said, Alina Haber reminds me of something, but I'm not going to say what it is. But now I need to know. I need to know. What was it? What were you thinking?

We're just on the podcast. Oh, God. Okay. What I was thinking of, have you seen a dead fish on a slab of ice? Of course, yeah. Okay. Have you really seen that? Oh, yeah. I live in New Orleans, girl. We go to the fish market all the time. Oh, my God. Okay. Porgies. Recommend it. So, you've seen fish on ice that are still alive? Yeah.

And we think they're dead and their mouths are closing and opening like this on the slab of ice. Yeah. That's a Lena Hava. Okay. Now that is the kind of description that I was hoping for. That's more up my alley. I need to ask you about, there's one disappointing thing in a postscript to the book I want to ask you about, which was my first question when Robbie reached out, which is,

Is this cheap bastard ever going to pay you? What's the status of the money? He will pay after he gets done exhausting the appeals. And every time he's appealed in the United States Court of Appeals, second search,

He has lost to Robbie Kaplan. She just argued last week on the $83.3 million. First of all, their arguments are flimsy. Second of all, Robbie Kaplan tore the roof off the second circuit last week. She was like, well, I said Henry V in Agincourt. I couldn't help myself. I mean, she blistered him. Absolutely.

And then, Your Honors, he stood up during my final summation and walked out of court. You know, she was brilliant. She was brilliant. So he's going to lose that. And then he will, you know, exhaust those appeals. And then he'll go to the Supreme Court. Now, Tim, let me ask you, what do you think the chances are the Supreme Court wants to take a case where the president has been found liable for

for sexual abuse and huge damages. Do you think they want to take that case? You know, it seems unlikely to me, but I've been surprised before. I don't know. Seems unlikely. There's a lot they've got to do right now. There's a lot. They're very busy.

tearing apart the seams of democracy so then in your mind is like do you get like one of those big checks like from publishers clearinghouse or how does it how would it work wouldn't that be great i would love to have you come in with one of those videos but i'll tell you you know what i'm gonna do with it if there's one thing trump loves and just loves and worships it's his money

So I am going to take that money and I'm going to give it to everything he hates. I love that. I don't really care about money myself. So let's just torture Trump by giving it. Let's give it away for women's reproductive rights.

Right. Let's give it to the immigrants that he sent in to El Salvador. Yes. See, and it's changing day by day what I'm going to give the money to. So I'm going to do publicly on Substack for everything we send them. I have an official foundation. And everything we support and send money to will be made public. So we can all join in. And if you have ideas...

Tim, and I'm sure you do. I've got some nominations, so things are coming straight to mind. Really? What would be one? Well, I mean, I am obsessed with the El Salvador stuff, as I mentioned. And I mean, you know, like the poor. We're just now into July. We did a Pride Month fundraiser last month for Andri, the makeup artist, who's been sent to a fucking...

hole in El Salvador with no rights. So that is something that jumps straight to mind. But I'm sure we could think of other things. People, the trans folks have been kicked out of the military. That seems pretty good. Though maybe what would bug Trump the most would be to give money to some of his other rich rivals.

I guess we probably shouldn't do that. That probably wouldn't count. Wait a minute. We could give it to Elon Musk. Yeah, Elon, right? Oh, my God. That would drive him insane. Wow. Or at least asking him for an idea. We can keep brainstorming on how to torture him more about that. I do like that. I wonder, though, if you don't care about money, I mean, why did you put yourself through this?

You could have done anything. You could have fed your dogs and hung out. Okay, yeah. Well, the plot of the whole two trials was this kid from the sticks of Indiana grows up, becomes a cheerleader and a beauty queen and a journalist. Yeah. Finds herself in front of Bergdorf's running into this guy named Donald Trump. And what happens is so horrible, she doesn't speak about it.

And then at 75, she finds her voice. And at 80, she goes to trial and beats him. There was a drive behind this to get back at him, which was so strong in me, so strong to not let him get away with this. It took two trials. And I'm still extremely happy we did it, Robbie and me. There's a satisfaction in it.

Total satisfaction. The fact that he won again, did that take anything away from you? That wasn't great.

It wasn't great for me either. I just wonder. I mean, there's got to be part of it that like part of it was tough. Well, I'm just mad that people didn't get off their lazy asses and get out there and vote. You know, we just didn't get out. And now we're all sitting in our houses on our lazy asses doing nothing now as he's tearing everything to shreds. So I'm, I'm, I'm,

wanting people to leave their houses and go out, look at your neighbors, organize a little thing. Stop. Just get off your ass. Doesn't it drive you crazy?

Yeah, I mean, I try not to think about it. I try to just look at my little box here in my room and just rant and do my part. Yeah, well, you're doing a big part. Thank you. But well, not really. I mean, like you said, he won again. It's a mix. Let's just be honest. I don't know. I felt mixed about it. I'm sure Robbie did too. It's like, you know, there are certain things we did and we felt good about what we did. And obviously, I didn't go through anything like what you went through. But then for him to still to not get the fucking comeuppance.

It's a tough pill to swallow a little bit, you know? I mean, you at least got them to get the comeuppance on the money, which is nice, but it's still a tough pill to swallow. Oh, I think we... I think if...

I keep thinking, just fucking leave the house, everybody. Leave the fucking house, and we may be able to get something done. I'm appalled not really. He's a fact. But I'm appalled at my fellow citizens. Really? Really? Really? Same. Yeah? Yeah.

I was in New York the day after, and I found myself – this is a horrible – so I'm just admitting that this is horrible, that this thought come across my brain. I'm just being honest. I found myself walking down the street, not too far from Bergdorf's actually, and looking at people.

And just being like, did you do this? And then looking at another person and being like, did you not show up? You know what I mean? And like getting mad at strangers, just stereotyping them, which is a totally irrational, insane thing to do. No, no, that's rational. No, that's the rational reaction. That's the rational reaction. Just being blase is the irrational if you look around what's going on. I mean, how hot is it right now in New York?

I've heard it's hot. I wasn't up there. Where are you? I'm in New Orleans. It's hot as balls down here. Okay. Shouldn't that be enough to drive us outside? Come on. Shouldn't that be enough? I just, yeah, no. Okay, so you and I are fed up. And you have a big soapbox.

I'm trying. And I have a little soapbox. It's getting bigger, though, hopefully with that sub stack. Once we get to decide how to spend your money, I'm starting to think about that. All right. Most of you all have been following the trials and tribulations of the neighborhood cat. A stray kitten was found, taken in to the home.

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Can I ask you a little bit more about the deposition of having to watch him? I guess let's go back to the positive. Having to watch him get kind of humiliated had to be sort of joyful. And when he confused you with Marla.

Did that sink in immediately for folks who didn't listen? Robbie shows him the picture of where you and him were together because he said he'd never met you. And he looks at the picture and he's like, is that Marla, which is his ex-wife? How'd you process that? Well, it was Robbie Kaplan. Here's how...

devastating Robbie is, do you realize, Tim, that she told him three times before she showed him a picture of me that she was going to show him a picture of me? She warned him. But Robbie, as you know, set trap after trap after trap, and Trump fell into almost every one of them. So when she comes up with this photograph of two couples,

She didn't mention my name. She just says, can you identify the people in this photograph? And he looks at, he doesn't recognize Ivana, of course. And he says, you know, he recognizes my ex-husband, John Johnson. Because he was on TV. He watches a lot of TV. Yeah, he watches TV. And then he said, and that's Marla. And Robbie didn't say a word. He said, yeah, that's my wife. And then Habba leaps in.

No! That's Carol! Robbie was absent. You know, it was perfect. And so the jury was shown this while he was sitting there in court, you know, calling me Marla. And it was...

I guess it was sort of a divine moment to watch. The jury was mesmerized by him anyway. They were just so delighted by everything he did. But their eyes all went to him while he was sitting after he made that mistake. So it was a wonderful moment.

And Robbie showed that deposition to the jury every chance she got. I believe it. The other kind of iconic moment in a more negative way from the trial, I was wondering how it struck you having an A, having been through it personally, but also as an advice columnist, I'm sure you heard from lots of women that dealt with sexual harassment. And Robbie says to him, well, Trump's asked for the Access Hollywood tape. And he says, well,

Well, historically, that is true with stars, that they let you do it. That's what he says. And then Robbie says, what do you mean it's true with stars? It's true with stars. They can grab women by the pussy. And Trump replies, well, that's what, if you look over the last million years, I guess that's been largely true. Not always, but largely true, unfortunately or fortunately. So he won't even grant that it's a bad thing. No. He's like, maybe, or fortunately. Maybe it's a good thing. This is his world view.

He is, it's all in our bones. We love a strong man, as you know, Tim. We love a strong man. We're going to go the other way, but that's for the advice section at the end. There we go. And part of being a strong man is having whatever you want. Having whatever you want. And he just has the right person.

to have whatever women he wanted. And as we know, at least a dozen women came forward. Some say 23, some say 48. So he took what he wanted. And people voted for him because that's the sign of a powerful man. That's the sign. He can have whatever he wants. So of course he's not going to deny it to Robbie in a deposition.

You know, he's not going to deny it because he's talking to his people, talking to his people, and that's what they want to hear. His voters want to hear. He can have anything he wants, and that's how it's been for a million years. So vote for me. There's a moment where I felt like that was like that the culture was rejecting that.

And I don't know, it kind of feels like we've backslid. I don't know. What do you think about that? Oh, yeah. No. Do women have rights in half this country anymore? No. No. Yeah. Backsliding. But that'll change. We can change it back. You think so? We can change it back, Jim. We can change it back. I like your optimism.

The other women, you had several of them testified at the trial and you've written about them. Just talk about their stories and like, I don't know how you guys have connected. And, and I don't know, at some level, I can't, it's hard for me to put myself in your shoes, right? Like, is that, is it nice to hear from other, from them? And is it a balm or maybe it's stressful? I don't know. What was it like to kind of build a relationship with the other women that went through this? We have, what is called the sorority, right?

We have the strange sorority and it's the women who've come forward and we all banded together. We banded together on election night. That was a real donor. Yeah. You were all together or just on text? We were on Zoom. Zoom, yeah. And a couple of us are really struggling, really, really struggling. The impact of him on their lives is,

It just crushed their lives. Others are like me. I don't center my life around it. You know, it happened.

I tried to move on. So we help each other. So the strong help. The weaker ones, they can come to the group and say, things are tough right now. Things are so tough for women who have been pounded by him and then have him go out and deny it. He denies it. So these women think

that everyone believes they're a liar and they're a whore, you know, so it's hard to deal with. But the group of us, you'd be amazing. You should come to it. I would love to. We'd have wine and we'd laugh our asses off most of the time. I would be honored to be included. I like talking about feelings and I hate Donald Trump, and I like wine, so that would be good. I feel like I'd fit in. Yeah.

One of my hobby horses, you said you're mad at the people. One thing that I'm mad at is, and some of them I kind of hate media criticism because media is so big and like some people are better than others. That's just the way the world works. But with you guys, I felt like in 2016, there was this big outpouring of coverage and interest around the Access Hollywood tape. So it's like he admitted it, right? And these folks are coming out and then he wins.

And then it's like, oh, well, he wins. I guess people don't care and it goes away. And then they'll cover your trial. But it's like, he doesn't get asked about this anymore. Like he hasn't been since he's won this time. Nobody, no journalist has asked him about the women that he assaulted anymore. It just gets memory hold. And that just really pisses me off.

Well, right now we have more important things to deal with than sexual assault. We have the democracy being split to smithereens. So sexual assault is extremely important. But right now we got a fight on our hands. Yeah. A fight. No, it's, well, every time I see him, no, I've learned not to think of it when I see him because, you know, the constant. He's such a bad man.

Yeah. That it's astonishing to me that we would vote for a man like that. Yeah. When you were having to go and do the deposition and think, like, how did you kind of just deal with that? I mean, like, just the thought of, oh, I've got to, you're writing about this in the book, like, I've got to get dressed up a certain way, and I've got to talk a certain way, and he's going to be in the room. And, you know, what was that like? Oh, my God. Are you kidding? It was years. Yeah.

It was years. As soon we'll be in our sixth year. So Robbie Kaplan.

prepared me. She and the Carroll team prepared me. We did a mock jury, Tim. That's where you have typical New Yorkers come into a ballroom, they're given lunch, breakfast, and every other thing, and we put on an entire trial for them. Then they split into three groups and the Carroll team watches them as they make their decision. The mock juries all agreed on three major things.

Number one, it's possible two people could end up in a Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. Yes, they all agree. Two, they all agreed, yes, something sexual could have happened in a Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. All agreed on that. And all of them totally agreed one of those people could have been Donald Trump and one of the people could have been E.G. Crowe. All agreed. You know what they disagreed about? No.

They thought I wanted it because I was so old and unattractive and such a dissecated old carcass. They could not imagine somebody as glorious, as fabulous as Trump attacking me. So that was a problem. He's a genius blob. He's horrific. He is like his makeup, the little tiny hands. Why would anyone –

Well, the jury sees him as the glorious Donald Trump. The hair? Yeah, no, the hair. That's horrible. No, the hair. Okay, so then, I mean, that has to be pretty dispiritic. That then you're like, well, I got to be hotter to win this case. Yeah, I got to be fuckable is the word. So what we did was,

is we looked, I had a talk show, a TV talk show in 1996. I went through that. Some of the shows took screenshots of my hair, my,

cut in a bob and we did the then i found the hairdresser and the makeup person who made me look like that in 1996 she came every day to trial did my hair and makeup exactly like it was in 1996 i wore the exact same clothes i wore in 1996 the exact clothes yeah they're back it's back in trend yeah uh

Oh, I don't have a book here, but the thing I'm wearing on the cover, I bought it at Bergdorf's in 1993. So that's the kind of... And I didn't look like I looked in 96, but I looked like somebody who could have looked like somebody in 96. And it was enough. It was enough. So that's... It was a trick.

That doesn't make you annoyed? Your feminist juices don't start flowing over that? Like, this is crazy. Tim, who are you looking at? I'm a woman. I'm into clothes and hair. What can I say? Hey, same. Hey, so are you! I'm into clothes and hair, but it's just more like the principle. It's about the principle of the matter is I shouldn't need to look fuckable for you to believe that I was assaulted.

No, you understand in the history of sexual assault trials, the center of the trial is always the woman's body, always the woman's body. That's it. And any of the young men who've accused, you know, famous politicians of really bad behavior, if any of those go to trial, the young man's body will be at the center of the trial. That's true. So that's, yeah. Yeah.

All right. What are you doing now? Are you good? Do you have your Zooms? Are you just hanging out up there? I've got my exercise ball, as you can see. I'm living in upstate New York in my Hubble. And I hike and I got a best-selling book. So I'm thrilled. Are you scared at all? No. These fuckers are going to come for you? No, I've got a gun. What kind of gun do you have? I have a Mossberg...

Really? Huh? Have you shot it? Yes, I've shot. Of course I've shot it. Of course. I don't, I haven't shot it. I've only shot a gun one time. I got peer pressured. Oh, what'd you shoot? Was it a handgun? I don't know. Some little, I don't know the different types of guns. I'm a gay from the suburbs, Jean. I don't know. It was a little gun. Was it a hand? Yeah, I don't know. We were in a little range. We were in a little shooting range. Just a little rifle maybe. Well,

No, I didn't hit anything. I missed it. I'm not saving anybody with a gun, but you can shoot? I'm not a great shot, but it's a shotgun. The principle of shotguns is you just aim it in the direction and you're going to hit something. All right. So, yeah, that's – so I feel fine. And also, did you just see that white blur run out of it? Okay, that dog waves more than I do. And you can hear them outside right now?

Well, I saw them run through. I can't hear them right now. No, they're good protection. Okay. Well, I'm good. I was just worried about you. I just don't want you to be all alone up there without, you know, worried about anything. No, no. It's cool. Robbie got around my hubble 24-hour surveillance. Listen, you even look at this place. Yeah.

You look at it. The police come down. No, really. It's... Get out of here, Kash Patel. You little masked micropenis agents. Oh, the mask. The goggle. It's horrible. It's horrible. It's horrible. It's frightening. I mean...

No. And it's not masculine, I don't think. It feels camp, almost. Like they're trying to be scary because they're overcompensating for something. She is totally scary. And totally. It's all performance. It's all performance. You're right. You nailed it. That's the word. Yeah. All right. I want to do advice column start. Is there anything else you want to say about Donald Trump or the book that I didn't ask you about?

You want to go off on it? No. Well, you're famous for doing great interviews. I want to ask you about advice column life.

I feel like I could have been an advice columnist. It's an alternate journey that I thought I think about for myself. You'd be good because you're funny. When you look back on it, is there any stuff, you know, you have all this wisdom now, like, is there anything you kind of look back on any of your advice columns? You're like, man, I missed that one. I wish I could go back and email. Half of them. I can't stand the advice. I get half at least. I'm like, what the hell was I thinking? But, uh,

Basically, overall, my whole thing was get the hell up and go do it. You know, because people write to advice columns saying,

because they want to be told to do something. They want to be told what to do. So I have no compunction, neither does Dan Savage, telling them exactly what to do. Dan is brilliant because he has changed a lot of people. He has changed a lot of people's lives who've never read his column. That's how big his impact is. He has pulled the strings for,

behind the scenes. He did so much for me. I don't do you hear that from do people get to that's got to be fulfilling to people come up to you and talk about the advice. They say you don't remember this but in 1994 I wrote to you about my career and I didn't know what to do and now I'm running a company you know now I'm running the whole company or whatever or yeah. I don't think Donald was ever much for asking for advice.

Well, no, he did ask me for it. That was how we went on the shopping thing. All right. I guess that's true. He was going to ask you for... He wanted advice about buying a gift. Yeah. That feels fake. What?

What do you think? Did that feel fake? No, it was a totally great scene. Hey, you're that emotional. No, no, no. I'm not saying that you're saying it's fake. I'm saying, was it a pretense that he asked you to do that, do you think? No, I think he actually was. And then I think it developed. Yeah. Because I was flirting my brains out. I admit it.

Okay. I'll reluctantly allow it. It was, you know, a moment in time. We all can get caught up in a moment. Yeah. And it was hilarious. And he was not like he was. He had a sense of humor back then. No, it was something very light turned very dark. By the way. Yeah.

I didn't notice this, but Laura Miller, you know, the great book reviewer, she said that what happened to me, you know, going from laughing, laughing, laughing to this very dark thing is what happened to the country. We're all laughing, laughing. He's such a clown. He's so ridiculous. And then boom, everything turns dark. That's exactly the same scenario. Yeah.

Yeah. I love your facial expression. I just don't like to think about it like that. But yeah, that's right, Laura. That's right. All right. Well, here's what I'm asking you for my advice because of this, because you can see this burden on me.

In three days, I'm taking a real vacation for the first time in a while. And we're going to Europe. We're going to go to Gay Pride in Madrid. We're going to go to Amsterdam. We're going to go to see Oasis at the end with my college buddies. Oh, fabulous. And my advice question for you is...

I want to go dark. I want to just not pay attention to this. I'm worried that I'm going to be unable to do it, to compartmentalize it, to turn it off. How do I do it? How do I get 10 days of freedom, of peace from this? E.J. and Carol, do you have any thoughts on that for me? Yes, I do. Okay. It's your brain. You make the decision. You make the decision.

Just fucking turn off your phone. You make the decision. You make the decision. Tim, you make the decision. Yeah, I have agency. And then if you're going to have any respect for yourself, you're going to not go back on it. Because how can you look at yourself in the mirror? You're having a great 10 days. Oh, my God. Amsterdam. I mean, can you imagine how wonderful this is?

I mean, can you imagine? I'm looking forward to it. Why would you even look at a headline? I don't know. It's the job and I'm an addict. And maybe I don't have control over myself, actually, E.J. and Carol. Maybe it's like fentanyl. Maybe it's like a version of, maybe it's just a news fentanyl that I'm dealing with. Well, you're a hard case because your job is the news. Mm-hmm.

and bringing it to people in such a way that they understand what's going on. That's what you do. Important role today because it's happening so fast. We do need somebody.

to explain to us what the hell is going on in ways that we can understand. I do not know what's going on with the bill right now. Our next guest, Sarah Longwell, is going to do that part with me. I figured we weren't going to do Medicaid reimbursement rates with you. Excellent. Tell her hello. I love her George Conway stuff. It's just, I mean, really. Okay. So you decided. There's no trick to it.

There's no trick. You know, you can put rubber bands around it and all that stuff. Then if you're going to turn it on, you have to like turn it on, take the rubber band off and do all that. Do you want to try that? I might have to. That's an interesting idea. You wrap it up in paper, put a rubber band around. Now, if we're going to check, you have to take the rubber band off, undo the paper and then turn on the phone. Try that. If I have to resort to that.

Well, I guess I won't be able to send you a selfie because it'll be wrapped up, but I'll have my husband send you a picture of me with the phone wrapped up. If I have to resort to that in Amsterdam, that's what I'll send it to you. Please. Oh, I would love that. Then I'll put it all over the internet and you won't even be able to see it because you won't be checking.

I hope that is true. I really, honestly, E.J. and Carol, you are an inspiration. I'm so grateful you did this. The book is so delightful. I mean, I hate to call a book, again, about sexual assault in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room delightful, but it just is. It is. And your bravery is something that I just...

I really look up to you. So thank you for doing the pod and writing the book. And I love being here. All right. Let's stay in touch. Let's do that zoom or maybe you, me and Robbie sometime or something. I don't know. I would love it. I would love it. And I want you to have the best 10 days of your life. I'm going to do my best. I'll do my best. I'll report back. Thank you so much. EG and Carol. There she is. Sarah Longwell. Oh,

Hello, hello, hello. You're just finishing. Hello. Hello. I'm sorry to jump on your recording. I hope you were good. We were just finishing. It was perfect timing. We just had... Tim just did the best interview. Just the best. It was so juicy. It was so good. I do not believe you. No. It was brilliant. All right. I'm going to sign off, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye.

All right, we are live. We're doing things a little bit differently today. We're doing a Bulwark pod segment live on YouTube because there's so much news happening on the Hill. I'm Tim Miller. I've got the publisher of this year Bulwark, Sarah Longwell, along with me. How you doing, Sarah?

I'm great, buddy. How are you? I am good. Did you stay up all night? Did you stay up all night and follow the various machinations of the bill? I didn't. I just read the briefings from our friends Joe Pertico and Andrew Egger here and the Punchbowl guys this morning. I was reading E. Jean Carroll's book last night because we had a kind of sultry conversation for the pod today. So anyway, that's a little break for people from the Medicaid rate cuts convo. I want to just lay the groundwork for where we are.

As we sit here right now talking, there is I guess they were supposed to start voting like 15 minutes ago. It seems like Republicans are indicating that they have the votes for this. There were four Republican senators that were iffy. Rand Paul concerned about debt. Tom Tillis, Murkowski and Collins.

on Medicaid and some of those other issues. It seems like Murkowski has cut a deal, and so she would be the 50th vote, and then J.D. Vance would be a tiebreaker as stuff develops as we're talking here. We'll keep people posted. But I just want to talk to you first just about the biggest picture state of play. This is a ridiculous way to do a bill. Andrew wrote about this this morning. Senate Republicans are trying to pass this law this morning, even though they were still writing it over the weekend.

Brian Schatz, Senator from Hawaii, summed up the state of play this way. One of the world's worst legislative processes I've ever seen. No bill text still. Almost a trillion out of Medicaid. A subsidy to move a space shuttle to Texas. A statue garden. Four trillion in debt. Hospitals will close. Trash. What is happening with the process here?

Well, it's called reconciliation. And we could really use a reconciliation on reconciliation because this is a little procedure that's been around since the 70s. I think sometimes people call it like the bird rule because I think he was the one who came up with it. The thing is, is it isn't until really modern times here, right, to get it. It's basically a maneuver to get around the filibuster, which I would just say as somebody...

who's like, has been in the past a bit of a traditionalist, somebody who likes, you know, to force bipartisanship out of people, which is what the filibuster is supposed to do, right? It's supposed to make you get some consensus. Instead, everybody, like, you might as well just get rid of the filibuster.

Like, why have it if people are just going to use this reconciliation, which is a budgetary process? It's like a budgetary process that they use. And then what they do is they pass these, they jam everything in to one bill. It's the reason that Trump has called it the big, beautiful bill is because it's like, yeah, we took literally everything we want to do and we put it all in one place. And now we're going to we're going to jam it through with this little maneuver on this budget. And it's a terrible way to live because they are still right now.

They are writing the bill as they go. It's not like horse trading the way they used to do it to kind of get to consensus. It's just pure bribes and carve outs for people so that they will go ahead and jam this thing through with them.

Yeah. Speaking of just how just absurd this process is, I just have this coming across the wire. Senator Jim Justice says that the delay here is because senators are haggling with the parliamentarian over last minute handwritten legislative text.

It's like the original deal that Murkowski had gotten to get when it seems like she was going to be for this originally before that kind of unraveled last night was a Medicaid and SNAP carve out for non contiguous states.

So just Alaska and Hawaii. Things are really different when you're out there. It's a whole different ballgame. And then that didn't pass the parliamentarians muster. So it ends up doing this thing where Alaska doesn't get the Medicaid carve out, but they do get a SNAP carve out. But now it's a bunch of other states and it's based on like their error rate. So.

So the people that are claiming that they want to get rid of waste, fraud and abuse are now rewarding the states that have the biggest error rate and snap because, you know, there's some pretense then that they can't figure out how to get the food. Like the whole thing is it's a preposterous Frankenstein joke. And Lisa Murkowski, I guess, is going along with this because she just is focused on getting stuff for Alaska.

Yeah. So let me let's talk about Murkowski for just one second. There's a lot of ways that Trumpism corrupts people. There's you know, it is obviously it's it's it's sometimes people are like Trumpism is not a thing because Trump has no real guiding ideology. That's true. Like it's not like when people people say Trumpism, they're like, and this is the philosophy that we all, you know, agree on.

Trumpism, though, it's forces he unleashed on our politics. And one of them is, I'm going to get mine and the rest of you be damned. And so I think that Lisa Murkowski might be telling herself, because a lot of people tell her this, like, I've met Lisa Murkowski a number of times. She's been one of the moderates. She's often who you turn to in moments of rebellion.

Republicans really doing something insane. Like you look at Collins, you look at Murkowski, you look at Tillis, maybe you look at Cassidy and you say, you guys are normal. You know, this is wrong. And they do, which is why they seek carve outs. Why is she seeking a carve out for her own state? But I want to tell Lisa Murkowski something as somebody who's admired her, defended her, really been somebody who pushes for the need for there to be moderates still in the Senate and the House.

What is the point of you being a moderate if you're going to vote for RFK, if you're going to take carve-outs as a bribe just for your people, if you're going to sell out the rest of the country? For the people who think the moderates are going to save us, and me as somebody who's long believed that they were important,

If all it takes is a carve out for your own state, like you don't understand your full job and you too have been corrupted by Trumpism. You too have drank this particular Kool-Aid of as long as I get what I need for my people, then everyone else can go screw off. And it is deeply disappointing if that's what happens. Yeah, it's funny.

The Murkowski thing, it's like, she still has an opportunity to do the John McCain. We're sitting here, we're waiting for the parliamentarian and the rules. And we've had dramatic moments in the past where a moderate has given the thumbs down. So, you know, folks, many folks call Lisa Murkowski's office right now or send them that little live clip of Sarah, try to encourage her to do the right thing. But I just, you know, I mean, it also is a, there's another element of this that I think is at play.

which is like the interpersonal... I always go back to the high school cafeteria explanation of all this. When John Thune gets the leadership, gets Senate Majority Leader, he isn't... They are friends. They have worked together on bills. You see we're moving to the Senate floor here now, so you can see what's happening there. Barry, if you can mute that. And it feels like there's almost...

It's favor trading on two levels, right? It's like I'm getting some favors for Alaskans, which is my job. I'm also working with and cutting deals with John Thune here. And it kind of does, it compartmentalizes what's happening with this bill and takes out the bigger picture of the damage, whether you're concerned about the debt or whether you're concerned about all the money that's going to the ICE.

prisons that are now going to be bigger than the federal prison system or you're concerned about the Medicaid cuts and SNAP cuts in other parts of the states. And I think that's what's happening here. One other funny thing, and funny in the dark comedy way that happened last night with this bill, an excise tax on wind and solar came in. That's hard for me to judge this claim, but the wind and solar people are freaking out that this tax would be devastating to them.

Lisa Murkowski, it wasn't part of any consideration. Lindsey Graham, I don't know where it came from. That is how haphazard this process is. Even if you thought it was a good bill, which it doesn't seem like anybody really does, they're just doing this by the seat of their pants to such a degree that they don't know where some of this stuff is from.

And this is like a whole industry, like an emerging industry in our country that has like the government has been participating with for a long time. It's got real infrastructure. They would just be like ending it. And here I don't know if it is a a anti Elon thing that Trump wanted stuck in there because, yeah, everybody's like, I have no idea where this came from. And think about that is one example amid racism.

I don't know, 3,000 things that are in there. Right now, six minutes ago, they're saying that they removed that excise tax. But like, that's, this is what we're doing. Like, we're just doing this live. Like we're coming to the floor of the parliamentarians working on stuff on a napkin. We're putting taxes in and taking them out. It's ridiculous. I mean, like they haven't even read, they haven't even read the bill.

Uh, they have no idea what's in it. And this is what's interesting is, you know, as well as I do, that one of the biggest attack ads ever levied on Nancy Pelosi from the Republicans was we're going to have to read it to find out what's in it about the ACA. Uh, but the thing about reconciliation too, that it really robs the American people. Speaking of the ACA.

That bill had to be debated for such a long time. Right. And you had they went through different provisions and like hearings. Yeah. And they held hearings. There was like the death panel thing. So the American people actually had time to give it some due consideration. And they acted like serious grownups who had difference of opinions and they heard from industry and whatever. None of that's happening here.

Like, unless somebody has the ability to call somebody, like somebody over at the Wind and Solar Association had to call up and be like, are you going to crater our whole industry? Like, and they had to go find, I don't know, Joni Ernst in a state where, like, they have a lot of wind. Like, say, do something, like, get it out of there. And that's how the whole thing is being crafted across a million different issues, right?

Elon's kind of right. Elon is right about this. I want to get to whether how uncomfortable it makes you feel with Elon in a minute. I have two other things I want to get to. J.D. Vance first is just, you know, the most unbearable person in all of public life. He did this tweet thread last night.

that says this about the bill. It's not really a great sign when the vice president of the United States has to offer this level of caveat about why people should pass a bill. You would think that the VP would be a cheerleader for the one piece of legislation they're actually going to pass this year. No, this is his argument for the bill.

The thing that will bankrupt this country more than any other policy is flooding the country with illegal immigrants and then giving those migrants generous benefits. The OBBB fixes this problem, and therefore it must pass. Everything else, the CBO score, the proper baseline, the minutiae of the Medicaid policy is immaterial compared to the ICE money and immigration enforcement provisions. Could there be possibly a more cynical argument?

for passing this bill than what the vice president offered. No, because, dude, so do a standalone bill to fund ICE. Like, this actually isn't hard. People opposed that, actually, back in January. Some of the immigration hardliners said they should do that.

Yeah. So this is when you say, like, there's no way to make law. It's not just cynical. Like, here's what I hate. I hate when people who are pretty smart act really, really stupid to do this. Like, he knows perfectly well the idea that you have to pass a gajillion trillion dollars in new debt on a

On a bill that nobody's read that is about giveaways to rich people and hurting people that Trump doesn't like and that we have to do it all because there's one provision around funding ICE and that's the only way it can get passed. It's just it's preposterous. It's like it's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

It is preposterous. And I'm stealing this from seeing multiple things from Andrew Agar this today. So people should sign up for his newsletter if they haven't morning shots with Bill Kristol. But he's like, he sent this funny tweet that's like, wait a minute. So the three trillion that we're adding to the debt is immaterial.

but the 8 billion that is going to ICE is the thing that matters. It's stupid on its face, and it's condescending, and it's also hateful, and the actual substance of the ICE policy is also terrible. They're funding, they're putting a ton of money into jails, so great news for the private prison industry, for ICE prisons, and they are not giving any money for new judges. Right.

So if you look at the whole context of this, like what they're going to do is they just want to have the money in the budget to advance their no due process agenda where they just nab people off the street and hold them in cells. So like that is the part of the bill that J.D. Vance is like, it's so important that we are able to nab people off the street and hold them in cells that we can't we should not care about the debt busting part of the bill or the cuts to Medicaid and food stamps.

I love the term immaterial. Like I like the idea that you're saying it's immaterial. You don't, don't be silly and pay attention to all of these other things. The rest of it is immaterial. Okay. Well, if it's immaterial, take it out. Do the other thing. It's it's no, no big here. Here's the thing about the judges. I don't, we don't have to go like down a huge rabbit hole in immigration, but I'll tell you, even in Trump 1.0, they understood that.

That to deal with the border, the number one thing you needed was a lot more immigration judges to process people in and out. Like to be able to handle the reason, one of the reasons that people sort of disappear. Sorry, there's a siren going by. One of the reasons that people end up doing like the no show and, you know, just kind of like,

is because their court dates are so far away. Like it's impossible to get in front of a judge. And so like by the time they get in front of a judge, they've been here for a very long time. And so like a sensible policy, just like one that made sense, like a common sense one would be that you would fund a ton of new judges. But no, you're right. What they want is to fund a bunch of places to just store people without due process.

One more thing on J.D. the Prick is he tells this story, like he tries to make it seem like there is a coherent narrative for how he went MAGA, like the scales fell from his eyes and he saw that nationalist populism was better than the old corporate republicanism and the neocon republicanism. So that's why he started to care more about immigration and about working class Americans.

But here's the thing. In 2017, that aforementioned John McCain thumbs down vote, J.D. was on John McCain's side. So in 2017, after Trump was president, after he suggested he might be Hitler, and he wrote this. The Senate bill offers a bit more to the needy, but still leaves many unable to pay for basic services. And the rosiest projections of each version, millions will be unable to pay for basic health care. This should not be acceptable.

So it's like during his populist conversion between 2017 and now, he also somehow has decided that he cares less about health care for poor people. Like the whole thing. You know what I mean? It belies the narrative that he wants to tell about his conversion in a major way. This is where there's a bunch to unpack here in terms of both Republicans and

having to come to terms with the fact that their new voters rely on these social services, right? When you, when you, the previous Republican party was all about fiscal discipline in a way where they were like, look, we're going to be, you know, clear eyed, which meant somewhat cold about things in order to try to like make these programs solvent. Like there were like these academic conversations. This was part of the Republican party when we talked about it, but now, right. The Republican party is,

They're voters. And I have like I've heard this a ton in focus groups where people are like, you know, I don't want to lose my stuff. Like, I'm glad Trump's doing things, you know, taking on trans things and saying there's two genders. But like, I don't want giveaways to rich people that are going to cut my benefits. I rely on those benefits. And actually, I'll play some focus groups on for you in a minute. And so so part of this is and this is where Trump is such a weird animal because on since he talks like a populist.

But he still governs in some ways like the worst version of the old Republican Party, right? Which is, I'm going to give total tax cuts only to my wealthy friends. Like, this is true. The Democrats' critique of this is absolutely true. That there is, the thing that Republicans are panicked about right now, the reason they are jamming this thing through, is that if they think if these tax cuts expire,

on their watch and their tax rates go up for their voters, that that's the only failure, right? But that's what they don't seem to be thinking is that it's going to be a massive failure for them when so many of their voters lose SNAP and Medicaid benefits. And also, I want to just talk about J.D. Vance's, I don't know that it's a, what did you call it? A

I would like to call it a conversion story. I call it the salt of Mar-a-Lago journey. Okay. I would like to call it his transition because yeah, I think, and that's what he's getting right now. He's getting his, his transition care where he basically litter. And look, the thing is, it's not a new story that JD Vance was a different person. He was one of us, one of us back in the day, literally never Trump blogger. And he was literally one of us.

Yeah. Trump was Hitler. You know, the whole. But this idea, right, of his transition was that he really cared about poor people. This is not a bill that supports poor people. It's just not.

I want to play your aforementioned focus group audio and then kind of talk about on the other side what you think the political implications of this are going to be if it continues on this trajectory and they jam this through on a 50-50 vote. Let's listen. I draw SSI disability. I get Medicaid and I get food stamps and I don't draw money for my kids, okay? I'm supposed to live off $900 a month from the government and

And with them turning around and cutting Medicaid, I'm already struggling to pay for medications. They're going to take and take and take until there's nothing left. More requirements for Medicaid, I think, was good. And also the overtime, the taxes on overtime and tips, I thought was good, too. I know it increases the national debt, but I think if we get some of these programs under control, that'll eventually even out. I'm not quite sure about...

the budget increases and the debt ceiling, putting everything into one bill. It seems kind of crazy to try to push all these things through at the same time without people picking and choosing what they think is not good.

So the first woman was the one I really wanted to play because I think that she's a really good example of people who are part of the Trump coalition now. Right. And there's a lot of people like her. But the other clips are also people you kind of have. It's an interesting you've sort of got the Elon wing of the Republican Party where people are concerned about it adding to the debt issue.

And then you've got the personal consequences wing of the Republican Party who are like, no, this is going to impact me. I don't like it. I don't care about it. Then there's also the sort of third category of people who I would be like,

I don't know. I kind of trust Trump. I think it's going to be fine. I hope it's going to be fine. Like, fingers crossed. But my parents are old. And so I hope that, you know, they don't get kicked off Medicaid. But the overall thing is the voters don't like this bill. Like Trump voters don't like this bill. Like he doesn't have a cheerleading section on this. Like the people who are voting right now to pass it.

are not listening to their voters. The bill is so unpopular, and it's unpopular basically based on what people know about it, which is they're still like, I don't know everything that's in it, so I'm worried. They know it cuts Medicare and Medicaid. They know it gives tax cuts to rich people. And

Like, there's nobody who's there saying, and they know how much it costs. And they're against this kind of reconciliation, these big bills. Like, I've heard this a lot in focus groups where people are saying, why do we do it this way? Like, this is crazy. And so I just, I can't think of a time when you've had something that is like this much of a

unpopular thing that these guys are going to jam through only to like, they know this is going to be actual nightmare fuel for them in 2026. Like this gives Democrats just a perfect position going into 26. How do you square that? Like what you're hearing the focus groups from, I mean, the top line numbers on, on this bill are bad, but like there's some other polls came out recently that like show that people really also don't know a lot about it yet. Um,

And I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's what Republicans are banking on. On the one hand, maybe that they can sell it better. They do have ads running on this right now. I've been seeing some of them down in Louisiana. But at the same time, they're jamming it through because they also seem conscious of the fact that the more people learn about it, the more they're going to dislike it. So I don't know. How do you kind of square all that?

I mean, I said this on TNL, but there's like one of the I can't remember who the legislator was who said this, but he was like, you know, you got to get these things passed fast because otherwise they're like a dead cat on a on a front porch or a dead cat on the steps. Like the longer it sits out there, the more it stinks. And and so, yeah, this is the more voters learn about it. This is why Trump has really tried to focus on the gajillion things that are in there. There's only a few things people really know.

Cuts Medicaid, tax cuts for the rich, and the no tax on tips stuff. You heard some people say that, like, oh, it's good for gig workers. That's the main thing. This bill does a lot of things. And it's going so fast that I think even people who are really experts in this, like we've got some very smart experts in health care and John Cohen.

I mean, we're all in our slack and he's he is I'm not sure there's anybody who knows more than John Cohn and like Joe Pertico and basically sleeping up at the Capitol. And we're all in slack right now being like, what does it say? What's in there? Like what? Because not only it was it was unclear always and now it's more unclear because they're changing things while it's going through.

Yeah, one thing I did, I just want to follow up on because I mentioned yesterday on the pod, speaking of like all of these changes that are just happening like overnight, was there was this horrible provision that was going to ban states from regulating AI for a certain number of years or else they weren't going to be able to get any money from the federal government. That did get stripped last night, 99 to 1. It was a Ted Cruz provision. So, yeah.

I guess people don't really, it doesn't seem like people like Ted Cruz that much, uh, 99 to one again. So that was, that was a pleasant change. Um, all right. We're still waiting to kind of see if, uh, there's any additional developments, um, on, uh, on, on the actual vote here. Uh, but in the meantime, the Trump Elon feud reignited this morning. Um, uh, Bannon, uh, suggested that they need to nationalize SpaceX, uh,

Again, that's something he's been asking for for a while. Elon replied to Bannon that Bannon needs to go back to prison for a long time. So they're still at it. And then Trump was asked about deporting Elon outside the White House this morning. And we're going to break our no Trump audio rule just because this is too delicious to miss. Let's listen. Why did Elon ask that he could have a fourth one?

I don't know. I mean, we'll have to take a look. We might have to put Doge on Elon. You know, you know, Doge is the monster that has, that might have to go back and eat Elon. Wouldn't that be terrible? He gets a lot of subsidies, Peter. The dentures are out really. So he's sounding more and more like the SNL version of himself, I think, um, with the dentures there. But I thought that, I thought it was interesting. There are a couple of interesting things I noticed there. Um,

So Doge is a monster in Trump's view and the monster he wants to go back and maybe eat Elon and go after his subsidies. I think that was kind of revealing. I don't know. What do you think?

I mean, I like it when he asks the reporters, you've heard of Doge? You know what Doge is? And then he completely, then he says something that maybe makes it seem like he doesn't know what Doge is. Like, it was unclear exactly what he defined. It's a monster that could eat Elon. I mean, I guess what he means, I mean, it's just a threat to take away the substance. I mean, and when you say it's revealing, I mean.

I think what's never been clear is when Elon had his hands all over the federal government, like, what did he do? What did he do in there? And I think that Trump's Trump has spent the I mean, he's only been there for five months. And Doge was like central to what he did for the first few things. Right. Kept putting Elon in the White House. And now now Doge is is.

Is it, I guess, something he's going to wield against Elon or it's a bad thing? It was unclear to me. What do you think he was talking about? I just, yeah, I think Trump sees Doge as something that caused him pain and that he wasn't really that bought in on. Yeah. Honestly, like I just, I think that he, Trump kind of saw it as Elon is a really rich guy that helped me win.

And he's sucking up to me and talking about how I'm the greatest. And he got us into the outer space. And he's like a real successful guy, right? And people respect it. And so Trump is susceptible to that kind of flattery, as we know, right? And so I think that it's like he felt like, okay, well, I got this really smart guy that wants to come and be my shadow president. And he thinks that there's a lot of fraud and waste. And I don't really like these people.

deep state officials anyway. So if he wants to cause them trouble, who cares? And I'll just let him loose. But that wasn't part of Trump's agenda. When you hear Trump talking on the campaign trail about deportations and tariffs and revenge in the 2020 election, you know what Trump cares about. He might have mentioned cutting spending before. It's not like he never mentioned it, but it was not. That was not what Trump cared about. And I think that Elon got in there

And it became a fucking hassle for him. You know, people were always at, people were mad at him. People were asking, he's like, why? And then all of a sudden Elon's calling him a pedophile. And then it's like, wait, wait a minute, you know? And so I, to me, it seems like he's flipped on the whole thing, right? Like the whole, now the whole thing is kind of tainted, uh,

And he sees it as a political loser for him. And he's mad at Elon over it. Anyway, that's my psychotherapy for Donald Trump for the day. Yeah, I think that's pretty good. I do think it's interesting the way that Don, I mean, the mafia stuff, right? The way he's going to wield the federal government against Elon. And to be clear, he backed Elon off the first time they had one of these fights with these threats. Elon kind of did a...

Shouldn't have gone there. It was too much. I went too far. And I don't know if he just started hitting the ketamine pipe. Is ketamine something you take out of a pipe? I don't know. Snort, usually, I think. Not an expert, but my understanding is snorting. So I don't know if he's back on the ketamine or like...

If this is actually a deeply held principle, but part of what Elon is doing right now is he's back in the like, I will primary everyone who every Republican who votes for this bill. And it was like, if it's the last thing I do on this earth, which is very intense, Elon feels. But I'm like.

Rooting for you, buddy. You should do that. This is what I wanted to get out of you. Do you feel any mixed emotions about Elon now at all? And you really turned on him very harshly, but now he's kind of speaking your language in a lot of ways. Elon is concerned about the deficit. Elon thinks maybe we need a centrist third party. Elon thinks Donald Trump's a pedophile. You and Elon are starting to come into alignment in a few areas. Does that make you...

Yeah, this is like that onion thing, like worst person in the world makes a decent point. And so like...

I think he's right about the fact that, and I do, I am enjoying watching him exact pain from them because the fact that he has elevated how much spending there is in this bill, what it's going to do to the debt and deficit. You're right. Like I was a super moderate Republican, but one thing I care a lot about is the debt and the deficit. Um, and I think that Republicans should be shamed constantly, um,

By their former, you know, comrade in arms for the way that they're blowing up the debt and deficit because people should know that it's all talk with them. It's all talk, the Doge stuff, all of it. I think that similarly, there's some emotional stuff on Elon's side, though, where he felt like he was trying to do something on Doge and he.

Like he got embarrassed by it. Like he went in there and actually couldn't do any of the things that he said. Then the administration hung him at Trump hung him out to dry on it. And so now he's like back coming for Trump. So I do think they are taking it personally. But I also think Elon has realized that Trump holds. And I think actually maybe I have to slightly.

Trump holds more cards than Elon. Like I always sort of think, man, Elon's got a lot. He's got a lot of money. He's threatened to primary people. You know, he basically bought Trump out this last go round, like spent, I mean, just so much money on the election. I wouldn't that be scary, but like Trump,

does have a lot of leverage because trump no longer it's not like trump cares about congress and so like he can just go in there and snip snap snip uh elon's contracts those things remember when trump was doing though everyone should have a tesla they had teslas out on the front lawn of the white house and i was like this is absurd and now trump's like i don't want an electric car who wants an electric car that's garbage

On to your point about the Republicans claim to care about the debt being shamed. I think we should just take a moment to specifically shame Ron Johnson. Ron Johnson got out on his high horse talking about how this bill is a debt bomb and how he could never support it and how he got into Congress because he was worried about irresponsible budgeting. And he went on the All In podcast with Elon's pals and they all buttered him up and washed his balls. And I was like, Ron, you're the one real guy. You're the one straight talker in Washington. Where's Ron today voting for the bill?

voting for the bill. So he learned the lesson about, I guess, you put, watch the Elon Trump feud. So no, no principled Hawks, fiscal Hawks to be had, even though I guess if this bill does pass, it'll go back to the house and,

And we'll have a chance to be disappointed again by the remaining three people who claim to be fiscal hawks in the House, like Chip Roy, I guess. So here, let's talk about the House for just one second, because part of what's interesting is there's a bunch of people who've already said no. I mean, a bunch like Chip Roy. They say like they're already no's on the Senate version of the bill. Yeah, Ralph Norman from South Carolina just said that.

And so they don't have a lot of room, but what's interesting is the dynamic is kind of flipped in the house versus the Senate. In the Senate, there are people that we think of as moderates that we think could have pulled the John McCain and, you know, knock this bill out. Uh,

But on the House side, though, it is like the genuine fiscal hawks. It's Massey, you know, whatever. And like, yeah, genuine. But some of them hold out. Like they will create trouble. Yeah. Massey will for sure. We'll see if anything else. Massey will for sure.

Uh, so I think that this is, this is not the last time we're going to have to do a live stream watching people vote because it will be, uh, you know, the wing of a hair's breath, um,

of whether or not this thing passes the house and it's going to change again. Yeah, it won't be the last time today. So once again, for folks that are just tuned in on the live, this is a part of the Bulwark podcast for today. We're going to continue to live stream here in a little bit. Once I have to hop off, um, uh, with some of our other friends, JVL, Jonathan Cohn is kind of an expert on the bill. Miss Sam Stein might pop on. Sarah's going to hang out and I might come back. We'll see how things go. But, uh, the new, the latest thing we have right here is, um,

The Senate parliamentarian knocked down a handwritten parenthetical notation and the Murkowski focused Medicaid provision that created a special preference for an Alaskan Medicaid fund, according to some Democrats. So, you know, I don't, I don't know Lucy with a football around here. Um, but, uh, interesting that, uh, Murkowski hasn't gotten everything that she wanted as far as the carve outs are concerned. And, um,

And they need her vote. I mean, they either need her or Collins, it seems like, or I guess Tom Tillis or Rand Pollack. That's the four. They need one of those four. And Murkowski was the one that, at least as the time we're taping this, looked the most optimistic. So we'll see. Sarah, before we sign off here...

I've got two real quick questions for you, and then we'll continue kind of live coverage with a different group in a minute. So stick around. But does this make you at all less worried about the fascism? It's the only green line I can I have a green shoot. I have this whole thing. The only silver lining is like these people don't seem like very effective authoritarians right now.

I mean, Congress, though, what it is is no, no, no. Trump is the authoritarian. And what Congress has done is assume a supine position so that his authoritarianism can run right over them. Right. They basically don't do their jobs. If they stood up and killed his bill and said, we're not going to give this to you, I would feel like, hey, no.

you know, that's good. That is a green shoot. But the Senate moderates, here's the thing. The Senate moderates roll over for this and Murkowski votes for it. And look, there's other Senate moderates that have already rolled, like Cassidy. Like, hey, hey, Cassidy. Former doctor. How's it going with the vaccines? Are we happy with, did Maha keep their promise here about how they're going to take vaccines seriously? No. No.

The moderates go elect Democrats like there is no point to the moderates. They they do not do anything to stop the authoritarianism. So, no, I'm not I'm not sanguine about that at all. Final topic. Bill Kristol made me mention this to you. He sent me a message and he said, we have to ask Sarah to close the pot about the Trump fragrances.

Bill quoted the Merry Wives of Windsor in saying it must be the rankest compound of villainous smell that ever offended the nostril. I thought that was a very Bill Kristol poll right there. Trump is now selling Chanel, selling not Chanel smelling, but Chanel priced fragrances. And I don't know, does that...

Does that fill you with despair or laughter? The idea that the president is such a fucking hack, grifter, late night salesman? Well, this is always the tough thing about Trump is he gives you something that you want to laugh at. But if you think about it for a second, you're like, it's too embarrassing to contemplate. The president of the United States...

phones, shoes, fragrances, and it's like Trump 45 and 47. It's like it smells like winning. Like, I am embarrassed to live in a country where there are people who would buy that. You should feel ashamed. I don't care what it smells like. Maybe it does smell like winning. Maybe it's really good. The fact that you would purchase something from this guy, like, that's the least American thing I can think of. Americans should mock this kind of stuff. Imagine what J.D. Vance...

would say about a third world country's leader selling a fragrance. I think we all just know what would be, what would happen there and how they would, how they treat those folks. But that's what, that's what it is in ours. We have our own banana Republic, a mega banana Republic. All right. Thanks to Sarah Longwell for doing it live with me, um, with all the breaking news on the Hill. And, uh, Oh, so special. Thanks to Eugene Carroll for coming on the pod. Go check out her book. It is, it's really an enjoyable little read. Um,

She is something else. So we'll be back here. As I mentioned at the top, we'll be back here tomorrow and Thursday before we go on vacation. So stick around for those two pods. We'll see you all then. Peace. Marianne and Wanda were the best of friends all through their high school days. Both members of the 4-H club, both active in the FFA.

After graduation, Marianne went out looking for a wand to look around this town and all she found was Earl. She put on the horse. She let the infant get better to die. Good for the taste. Why don't you let it rot? The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.