Financial Chaos Can Derail Your Future
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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality. Number one best-selling author of the book, Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host,

Thanks for joining us. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Marcus is in Oklahoma City. Hey, Marcus, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, Deb, how are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

I'll just be quick and to the point, 2020, 2021, I was working a mortgage company. They closed their doors in 2022. I was making quite a bit. Now I'm a teacher, didn't file my taxes for 2020 and 2021. Probably 80% of that was paid.

um, obviously commission. So I did, um, uh, I know I need to file those now, obviously, and I'm going to owe quite a bit. I was just going to see if I can maybe get some, um, advice on how to go about doing that. No, the least harmful way. Ouch. Okay. Here's the thing. Not paying taxes is not a criminal act. Not filing taxes is a criminal act. That's what's weird.

We do not have a debtor's prison. They don't put people in jail for not paying their taxes, but they do put people in jail about $2,500 a year for failure to file. Okay? So that's the danger that you're in. I'm more concerned about that than I am the payment plan. I don't think you're in trouble because 99% of the time that you're not some public figure that you come and self-report

You catch up your filings. They're just all late. You don't get into any criminal issues, but I want you to get it done now. I don't want them to come find you. I want you to go to them immediately. No later than the middle of January. These documents need to be filed. That's the panic. Then the second issue is how do we pay it? Well, number one, we've got to assess the damage and figure out from the actual filings what you actually owe.

And then, you know, your worst case scenario is you're selling some stuff and putting the KGB, I mean the IRS, on a payment plan. Okay? So, because, I mean, if you were doing mortgage origination in 2020, you made some bank. Yes, sir. Yeah. Like what'd you make that year? Probably $250,000. And you paid zero taxes? Yes, sir. Did you save any?

Yeah, yeah, I got about probably $100,000 saved. Oh, good. Okay. Because you're probably going to have $100,000 in our tax bill. Oh, yeah. Okay. If you've got two years of that, you will. Yeah, easy. Yeah. So you're going to give them what you've got to limit it, and then you're going to work out the payments. What you've got to have is a real tax pro in your corner right now.

And if you'll go to RamseySolutions.com and click on the tax ELP for your area there in Oklahoma City, I know them. They're good people. They can sit down with you and help you first get the filings done and then secondly negotiate the payment plan and how much of this you've got to throw at them to keep them off your bank account. Because we don't want them putting liens on everything after you file, but also don't want them putting bracelets on you that connect because you didn't file.

Yes, sir. So we need to get filed, and then we need to develop how tough the path is that we've got to walk through. Do you own a home? Yes, sir. What's it worth? About $500. What do you owe? About $200. Okay. And what is your household income nowadays?

I'm probably about 70. I have three jobs right now. So I'm a teacher. I do some data entry at night, and I do wait some tables on the weekends. Do you have any money other than the $100,000? No. Do you have any money in retirement? I do. Okay. I do not tell people to cash out retirement to pay off debt. I might to pay off the IRS to keep from selling your home. You follow me?

So that's what you've got to get into. You've got to ascertain because let's just say this, okay? Let's say it's $150,000 and you throw $100,000 down and you say, okay, we're going to pay $2,000 a month for three years and we'll be out of debt. That's okay. But if it's $200,000 and you put $100,000 down and you're going to be in debt for a decade, you don't want that. You need to clean out something else, the house or the retirement accounts, and clean up the mess. Right.

So the not filing and it's not the not filing, the not paying and the not filing. I hope it's not a ton more than the hundred when you get there. It's going to be something more than that. But you need to get you need to understand the size of the problem. The not knowing is a bigger stress inducer than knowing the details. So you've got the cancer diagnosis. You just don't know what the treatment is yet. And you don't know whether it's terminal.

You know, so the first thing they do is they scare you to death and you go around for about two months or two weeks with no information. And then they start going, okay, well, here's the treatment plan. Oh, you mean I'm not going to die? Well, that would have been handy information about a week ago, you know, and that's kind of what you're dealing with here is that same set of emotions. So, you know, the, yeah, get with a tax pro today. Okay.

When you hang up, open up RamseySolutions.com, click on TaxProELP at Oklahoma City, and go sit down with them this week. I don't give a crap if it's Christmas. You know, you need to give yourself a gift to get this monkey off your back.

Oh, man, that's scary. Yeah, and I hope he has – he saved some money. I hope he also has some write-offs and records of that kind of stuff so that he can, you know, take this. The better your records, the more you can limit this. Yes, that's exactly right. Write-offs and records. Tax Pro here is huge, though. Do not try to figure this out on your own. No, and don't go ask the IRS what to do. Oh, yeah. Good Lord. Yeah. It's like asking a dog if it's hungry. Yeah.

You know, no, we don't do that. So, you know, where did you get your tax information from the IRS? Oh, my God, you're a fool. You know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don't we don't ask them. We don't ask the fox about the hen house. Hello. Yeah. So, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're tasty. And by the way, don't ask them for grace either, because they don't have any.

This is get your tax pro to help you. I used to talk to Grace. I used to talk to her weekly. She called me all the time. It's like from Christmas vacation. She died 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. They're just not going to be kind. And a tax pro here is going to be your advocate. And they know everything that they can do. They're worth it. So don't try to navigate this on your own. Yeah. And here's the last part of this. Okay. Okay.

These commercials that are on cable TV. Do you have $10,000 or more in tax debt? We can get it forgiven. We have ex-IRS agents working for us. Just give us $5,000 and we will promptly do nothing for the next 24 months. That's what that is. That's a complete freaking scam. There's a thing called the OIC, an offer in compromise that you can get your federal income taxes forgiven. About 1% of them are approved.

You have to prove total paupership, meaning you don't have a house, you don't have a job, you don't have any potential income, and you don't have any assets of any kind. And then they will forgive your debt after fooling with them for about two and a half years. Don't answer those stupid butt cable TV ads. Go get a tax pro and actually work a plan to get the mess cleaned up. This is The Ramsey Show.

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That's Fairwinds, F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Oramar is with us in Canada. Hey, Oramar, how are you? Good, how are you? Better than I deserve. How can we help? Well, I'm actually ecstatic to be on this phone call. I can't believe I'm talking to you guys, but...

I'm calling from New Brunswick, Canada. I actually moved with my family and my two babies, three and four, from Toronto, escaping pretty much what was happening over there. A normal run down home was $2 million. We didn't want to get into a mortgage like that. And because we had the freedom of remote jobs, we decided, well, let's move.

We wanted a more conservative place as well, so it's been amazing living here. But we purchased a house, $400,000 last year. It has been a year and a half. And I feel like I'm on baby step number zero. We are reading the book, and we're doing everything we can, but we had very bad advice with our mortgage. We went on a variable rate last year, and I just feel hopeless. I don't know.

How do we even get through this? So we've done what we can and we got the book from the church, Total Money Makeover. We've been reading it, but with two little ones, it's been tough. And I just, I don't know how to deal and cope with all

I guess, paying the mortgage when we initially budgeted for $1,600, and we ended up at a fixed rate of actually we fixed the rate last week, and we ended up at $3,200. So you have a $3,200 mortgage, and what is your income?

So my husband makes $85,000 a year, and I recently started a work with the same company, actually, and I'm making $3390. I'm not on payroll, but I've been with them for 10 months, and they are willing to put me on payroll. It's just it hasn't come to that yet. Is $3390 an hour or $33,900 a year? Yeah.

No, $3,390 monthly plus $85,000 a year that my husband earns, which is, I believe it's $4,900 a month. So we're roughly around $8,000 to almost $9,000 a month. You're about $8,500 a month take-home pay, and you have a $3,200 mortgage, which leaves $5,000 to pay the rest of your bills. Why can you not do that?

I know, right? We feel the same, but unfortunately, since we got our home last year, we had, I don't know why we came up with the bright idea that we wanted to finish the basement that we had in this house because we wanted to rent it out. We said, well, maybe let's do like a side income and have someone be,

be downstairs so is it finished or not it is okay somebody living down there didn't finish it yeah finally okay and how much are they paying you of being 1200 okay and so that's another 1200 on the 8500 now what what other bills have you got other than the 3200 what other debt payments have you got uh insurance i believe it's 240 no i'm talking about debt debt oh that it's um

$32,000 on a home credit line. How much is the payment on that? A lot. It's like $900. $1,100. Maybe because we really got behind. Okay, $1,100. So that's $4,300. Okay, and what else? Yeah.

uh 20 000 on a credit card which i don't know how it even came to that okay or mar stop here's what's going on okay your brain is scrambled eggs on this money stuff because it's you're all over the place just to talk to you and that's where all your stress is coming from okay so the numbers you've given me because you haven't thrown me any numbers here that don't work

You've got $9,700 a month coming into this house, counting the $1,200 rent. Okay? The only numbers you've given me are $3,200 and $1,100 going out. So when you just start... No, no, no, no, no, no. My turn. Just at the top of the page...

Write $9,700 and then write minus $3,200, minus $1,100, minus a little for insurance, minus some electricity and food. And then you're going to go, hey, where's all my dadgum money going? Because that's where I'm going right now. I can't figure out why you're stressed out about this. You should have plenty of money. So what that tells me is you guys are very disorganized.

You're very chaotic. It's chaotic talking to you. I'm not being mean to you, but that's what's happening. It's the stress is in the air. I can feel it. And, honey, you got to get this. You guys got to get, when you push this down on the paper and transfer this financial stress into actual arithmetic, the stress will start to dissipate because you are not out of control here.

Unless you've left out entire segments in this conversation, which is possible. But you've got – there's something about writing it down that makes it come alive and makes it get under control. So, Ormar, it's kind of like –

Remember that time back in high school, Ken, when you have a problem, or you might do it as an adult, and you sit down with your friend who's going to help you with the problem, and you tell them the whole problem, and by the time you actually put it into cogent words, you know the answer, and it's not a problem anymore, your friend doesn't have to say anything. They just got to look at you like you're an idiot, right? And so...

Or worse than that, you write it down. If you write yourself a report on what's going on, by the time your brain goes from jumble to verbal and then one more step from verbal to written, you have processed this information very thoroughly and the answer oftentimes will appear right in front of you. You're on the other end of that spectrum right now, R.E. Marr. So you guys need a budget. That's what you need.

and your time is not being managed well, your kids are overrunning you. I bet your house is a mess. And so, you know, the chaos is in the air. And when you get things orderly and straightened up, the calendar's straight, the budget is straight, you're going to get on top of this, and you're going to be able to run so fast because you're really doing better than it feels like you're doing to you.

Your numbers are not nearly as bad as your emotions are telling you they are. Yeah, what I heard is someone who's being reactive instead of proactive. And the power in writing it down and creating this budget, Omar, what Dave's telling you is right. When you look at just that exercise where he said, all right, let's start with what's coming in.

You guys have got to write down what's going out. And when you begin to get intentional, proactive versus reactive, you guys are letting every day come at you. And I don't think you have a plan at all. And it's just overwhelming. Your emotions are managing this. Your emotions are managing, not your logic. That's right. So get your critical thinking skills up on top of it. Open up an EveryDollar app.

Get that thing going. You've got a total money makeover book. You and your husband sit down, turn the TV off, put the kids to bed, tell them to stay in bed. And we're going to sit here and we're going to read this book and we're going to freaking do these steps. Exactly. We're going to get these forms out of the back of the book even. I don't care if you do it longhand with a yellow pad. But when you get organized, you will feel motivated.

more in control and the reason you feel that way is because you are more in control and it changes everything. Folks, when you jump on your EveryDollar app and do your budget for the first time and you say this is how much is coming in and here's where I know it's going and then there's this big pile of money left over, you're going to go what am I doing? I'm spending like I'm in Congress. What am I doing?

You're going to have that moment where you feel like you got a rage. It's true. Every dollar allows you to see where you are, and then you can start making changes. But the problem is when you don't know where you are, and what we felt in her was this, I just don't know where any of it's going, and I don't know, and I don't know. And here's what we know about just human psychology, when the scariest thing is the unknown. And so every dollar allows me to actually for the first time go, oh, okay.

That's where I'm spending money. Bad news is not nearly as scary as unknown. That is so true. The human brain reacts more aggressively and positively towards bad news than it does the unknown. You might have cancer. It's going to be three weeks before you tell you. That's three weeks of hell. Yeah. And then they say, you got stage three. Bring on the chemo. You're like, at least I know what it is.

The devil I know. Let's fight it. Here we go. Game on. But the unknown will drive you bananas. This is the Ramsey Show.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, it's that time of year. It's starting to get a little bit colder. It's getting a little bit dark earlier. And sometimes if you're like me, you just want to stay inside and get cozy. And for me, my perfect cozy night is me and all of my family piled under blankets, watching a movie, sitting by the fire, maybe even reading a book. Listen, whatever your perfect night in looks like, sometimes therapy can feel a bit like that. A time when you can settle in, finally relax,

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Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Melissa is with us in Rochester, New York. Hi, Melissa. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, good afternoon, sir. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Sure. What's up?

Sure. So the reason why I'm calling in is because I'm having a couple of issues right now. I currently own the home that I live in. It is completely paid off. However, that home is actually my mom's home. What was your mom's home? It's now yours. Yes, it was my mom's home. It is in my name now. It is paid off. However, it was originally my mom's home. She lost it. And so I helped her save the home. And now it's in my name. I don't feel that she'll lose it again.

However, sir, my mom has made infrastructure changes to the property without... This was before I even had the home. She had made infrastructure changes and she didn't properly permit the house. So she's gone now a couple of years of having...

rooms that she created into the house that weren't permitted. And so now I'm in fear that I may be facing any type of legal issues or ramifications that can come out of a house being in my name and her doing things to the home before they were even in my name. And so now I'm trying to just save myself any issues that may come out of all of this. And I want to just un-deed myself and deed my mom back on the property and just give her the property to take care of. How old is your mom?

My mom is 70 years old. Okay. What did she do to the house? She refinanced it. No, I'm talking about the structural issues. What did she change? She added bedrooms to the property. So she did an addition. Yes. It changed the square footage of the house. Are they not within code? Well, no, they had, if you didn't permit and you changed the square, she changed the footprint, right?

Yes. So the actual outside structure of the home is the same. It was never changed. But what she did was she built up additional walls, creating bedrooms. Inside. Inside the original footprint. Inside the original footprint, correct. Yeah, that's why I'm asking. Well, they have no way of knowing what happened there. Right. Correct. So, no, you don't have any liability. Nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about? Right. Nothing to worry about. And that's why I asked the code question. Did she rewire the house without getting an electrical permit?

No. Did she replumb the house without getting a plumbing permit? Yes. Completely replumbed the whole house? Well, she added a bathroom. She added one bathroom. Yeah, okay. Is the construction done of reasonable quality? Yes, it is. I don't think you've got a thing to worry about. Nothing at all.

I think you got a thing to worry about. It would have been better to permit it, but lots of people do that kind of stuff. I mean, that's a fairly normal practice. Yeah. Some municipalities are much more strict than others. I can't tell you that, you know, Rochester, New York is not like the toughest in the world or something. I don't know that. But in general, most people, you know, it's inside the footprint. She didn't change the dimensions of the house.

And, you know, she didn't illegally do a trade other than adding a bath. I really, truly, I don't think you get a thing to worry about. And I wouldn't give her the house back. She's going to borrow against it. Well, and here's what's going to happen is she's going to screw it up. And then she's going to try and leave it to you when she dies. And you got the mess again. You're going to get it back. This thing's a boomerang.

Yes. And now my one fear right now is, so the conditions of the house, the roof needs to be replaced. That's about $20,000. The driveway needs to be replaced. Fencing needs to be added because she hasn't... Is she living in it or are you? We're both living in it right now. What do you make a year? Right now I'm not working. I decided to put myself back into school and I just graduated two months ago. How do you people eat? Where's the money? My mom.

Well, I have savings that I use up right now. I only have about $2,000 savings left. And you have a paid-for house that's all run down? Come again, sir? You have a paid-for house, but it's all run down? Yes, it's run down. And what are you getting ready to do for a career now? I'm getting ready to go into public safety, law enforcement, to be specific. And you'll be making what? I'll be making approximately $60,000 a year. Okay. All right.

Well, I would not date it back to her. I would either sell it to an investor as is and you guys go about your merry way or I would sit there with a plan to gradually do the repairs that need to be done out of cash from your new job. Part of this is you want to get rid of all the negative things that your mom represents by getting rid of this house.

Yes, sir, because right now she rents out. That's where some of the income is coming in. She did additional bedrooms. She rents out the bedrooms. And so that income, she claims it all because that's technically her retirement, so she doesn't work. I'm sorry, the house is yours. How does she rent out your house and she collects the rent? Y'all are weird.

Yes. It's only because, it's only because the house was originally mine. I did save it from her. I didn't technically have any financial investment in it. Um, how did you save it? Um, I was able to, um, when she short sell the house, I was able to purchase it for about $40,000. And that's called a financial investment. Yes. And she has since then refunded me that money. Okay. Uh,

You don't have boundaries is the bottom line. You know, I think you might be right, Melissa. Actually, I'm going to change my mind right here in the middle of this call. Wow. I think you deed it to her and let her have it, and you go have a life. And when she passes away, you auction it off. Don't you ever move in it.

I think this house and all the chaos that occurs around your mother in this house is all a huge negative spot for you. And a clean, fresh start in criminal justice system is a great thing for you. Clean, no chaos, simple little one-bedroom apartment, and you build up some cash again. And you've come out even. She gave you the money back that you used to save the short sale. But you can just push all of this chaotic chaos

over to the side and not have to worry about it anymore. And just, I would, yeah, I would talk to a title company and I'd deed it out of your name into hers and you go move. But only if there's a clean break there. Yeah. You have to stay away. You rent your own place. You have to have your life completely separate, completely clean. All the chaos stays over there on her side of the fence. Don't help with the roof. Anything around this mom figure is chaotic. I can smell it in the air. She's a character. Okay.

Mom's a character. And then you're sitting there trying to be a normal person in the middle of this character, and that's why I called y'all weird. So I couldn't figure out how you own the house, and she's collecting the rent. But now I'm starting to understand. So, yeah, I think it is a good idea. Let's just get away from it. But not because of the remodeling.

Because of the chaos around your mom. And this is never going to be, it's always going to be the weird part of your life until you give it a little bit of distance and a little bit of a boundary. All right, Casey's in St. Petersburg, Florida. Hi, Casey, what's up? Hi, thank you for taking my call. Sure, how can I help?

So I've just been listening to your show for about a month now, and I understand a little bit about the baby steps, and I actually just signed up for the Financial Peace course through my church. Wow, great. To get started on that, yeah. So my situation is that I am 41, single. I have $183,000 in student loan debt. You're a doctor or a lawyer?

Nurse practitioner. Oh, good. That's even better. Okay. So you're making what, $110,000? I'm making $135,000. $135,000. Great. I love it. What other debts have you got?

I have $8,000 in private student loan debt, $5,000 in a parent plus loan for my daughter. And I have, this is the really hard part to even say out loud, is I have $19,000 in credit card debt from medical bills.

and other things. Okay. What we're going to do is just do what we do in Financial Peace University. You're going to live on beans and rice, rice and beans. You make a wonderful income. And as a nurse practitioner, you can also pick up some side gigs called ER on the weekends, and it pays really well. I want you working all...

Good.

Good question. I'm proud of you. Get at it. Holler if you need some more help.

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churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement. NMLS ID 1591. NMLSConsumerAccess.org. Equal housing lender. 1749 Mallory Lane, Suite 100. Brentwood, Tennessee 37027. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. Hey guys, if you've been listening to the show and you're enjoying it, we could use your help. Literally. I mean, really, we need your help. It changes everything if you will subscribe to

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Push our show forward. We know a bunch of you are sharing and subscribing and following because we see your numbers, number one. But number two, we see our rankings going up in every one of these platforms. So thank you for helping us with that. Doesn't cost you a thing. And it's a way that, you know, we're not going to spend like $300 million today.

On a football stadium to tell you we're here like so that or something like that. Excuse me. I got allergies, but the but yeah, you don't want to do that. And so we're not going to do that. We're not like that. So but you guys are our biggest champions to help us move this thing forward. We need to create a crusade in America and have a renaissance in the art of living. Well, having the right career, the right mental health.

The right ways of handling your money. I mean we the people can do better We don't need someone else to tell us how but you hey, we'll leave the charge if you'll help us. It's that simple Kara is with us in Indianapolis. Hi Kara. How are you? I'm doing well. How about yourself better than I deserve? How can we help?

I currently have a job that works great for my family. It's a good income. I'm just not passionate about it. I've only been there about four months, and historically I stay with my job a long time. I was just offered my dream job this morning, and I am nervous about discussing that transition with my current employer because I haven't been there very long. So how do I go about that?

Well, first of all, congratulations on getting offered your dream job. Let's not just cruise past that. How did that come about?

Well, I have a history in cardiothoracic surgical ICU nursing, and I'm now a nurse practitioner. And so I heard about the opening with the surgeon that I used to work with through a friend, and I reached out, and they were really excited that I reached out. What will you be making at the new job? $120,000. And what do you make now?

122. Okay. But I'm guessing there's room for growth here with this new job? Yeah, yeah. Every year they're pretty consistent with making sure that they compensate you well. Yeah, okay. Well, first of all, congratulations. So my answer to this is always the same, and it's really simple. I want you to put yourself in your boss's position.

And I want you to, in your mind, you just kind of role play that out. How would you want you to come say, Hey, listen, I've only been here four months, uh, but I got a past relationship with this surgeon and opportunity was there. I reached out. It's my dream gig. Uh, I,

I'm sorry to put you in this lurch and do this at this point four months in, but this is an opportunity that I have to take. I mean, that's your reasoning. You don't have to explain that away, but how would you say that in a way that is humble, filled with gratitude, certainly sensitive to the fact that, hey, you're leaving only four months in, but you don't owe them a certain amount of time.

What you owe them is your best, and I don't think you'd ever be able to give them your best if you turn this opportunity down. And so if you have that mindset, how would you want someone to handle it with you? That's the best way to go because I know you're a person of character and a person of class. Did they pay you anything or pay moving expenses or a signing bonus or anything when you took this current job? No, it's a better schedule for my family. No, the one you're in today.

What we're saying is, are there any strings attached? The four-month-old job, do you have anything you owe them because they paid for you to move or they gave you a signing bonus and now you're going to take the signing bonus and run? Nope. Okay. All right. So you just took a job, didn't cost them anything, and okay. I'm with Ken. I think you just be sensitive to how would you want to be treated if you were them? Mm-hmm.

If I'm them, I'm disappointed, but this great lady is going to go. She got something that she likes better. She's going to go do it. There's not a lot I can do about it, so I'm going to be classy about it and say, well, I certainly understand. Are we going to do a two-week notice, or what are we going to do here? And, you know, just be honorable and kind and kind.

tell the truth and just be you know i think you say out loud i'm sorry i did not take this job intending to do this i this fell in my lap and it's something i've always wanted to do and i'm going to take it uh but i do feel bad about the way this worked out and i'm sorry

Yeah, I do. Okay. I just wanted to, was there a more professional way to say that? But that sounds compassionate and professional. Sometimes profession gets in the way of people stuff. And I love the way Dave said that. I think he gave you a great perspective from the leader's perspective. Just be a good person. And you are a good person. That's why you called. There's a sense of guilt. I get this call a lot on the Ken Coleman Show, Dave, and people feel guilty because they're good people. But if you're not doing anything ethically wrong,

and you're not doing anything illegal, then guilt shouldn't enter the equation. Well, you understand as a human that has good relational skills that you've greatly inconvenienced someone and actually cost them money. That is correct. Because when we put somebody on at Ramsey, it costs us quite a bit of money to onboard somebody. And then they turn around 90 days later, they're gone. It's a net loss for us. That's correct. But I also don't want them to stay here if...

They have their dream job. That's right. And further down the line, though, I don't want to be, as an employer, used. You know, I'm going to take this job and then keep looking.

Correct. And all over the place. If I can get 10 cents more, I'm going to jump. Now, that is a lack of ethics. I agree. And job hoppers are very different. That's not hopping. That's just speculating. Yeah, that's wrong ethically. But that's not what Kara's doing. No, no, no. Good job. Oakley's with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Oakley. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, thank you so much, Dave, for having me on. I appreciate you guys. Sure. How can we help?

Hey, so I just wanted some insight and wisdom from you guys on how a young couple like my wife and I could best attack the debt that we have, become debt-free with the situation that we're in, and ultimately pay off, again, everything that we have. How much debt do you have, not counting your house? About a little under $50,000. Okay, and what do you guys make?

Collectively, about 115, 120. Okay. And so if you lived on 70 and made 120, that'd be 50 not counting taxes. You'd be out of debt in a year. You follow me? Yep. We've got to count taxes so you're not going to make it in a year. But that's the math. Yeah. That's the math. You've got to count taxes.

You've got a good-sized shovel and a medium-sized hole. This is very doable. Now, what do we do? We get on a written budget on EveryDollar and go to EveryDollar.com and sign up for slash budgeting and sign up for one of our free webinars on how to use the budgeting app.

to get things under control. And you and your wife sit down. You stop all investing. You take any money you've got that's not in retirement, and you throw it at this debt. We're going to list the debts smallest to largest. We're going to attack them with a great intensity, a great vengeance, like, ah!

Like paint yourself blue and wear a kilt, right? I mean, you're getting after it. You know what I'm saying? And so you knock it in the head. You knock it in the head. You knock it in the head. We're not going on vacation. We're not eating out. We're going to take our lifestyle down to scorched earth, and we're going to live on less than $70,000 so we can pay off $50,000 with a $120,000 income in around a year. And you can do that. What's your smallest debt?

Actually, it would be my student loans, about five grand. Okay. Yeah. And so you're going to have that done in a little over a month. Boom. One done.

And you just keep doing it. Just keep doing it. Keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. And that's the process. So jump on everydollar.com slash budgeting and sign up for Rachel Cruz, Jade Warshaw, or George Camel doing a webinar for free and get yourself into that EveryDollar app and get this thing going. You can do this. It's called the debt snowball. List them smallest to largest and attack them in that order.

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Build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author and host of The Ken Coleman Show, where he helps you have a better life.

at work and at your career and all of those kinds of things. So we're going to talk to you about your life and your money as we always do. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Josh is with us in St. Louis, Missouri. Hey, Josh, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave, thank you so much for taking my call. I just want to take a second, and I appreciate all that you do. You've truly changed my life over the last few years, and I just want to take a second to say thank you. Sure. What's up?

Awesome. My question is, how should I feel about a prenup? I know your stance on prenups and I know kind of, um, you know, extreme circumstances. And I believe kind of like my circumstance is kind of extreme on both ends. So a little bit about my background. I am currently 28. I followed the baby steps through and through currently on three B I make about 300,000 a year. And, uh,

That's divided up into about $100K in retirement, $100K for a down payment, and $25,000 to $35,000 in just a bank account, checking account for an emergency fund. So I'm getting married in June to my wonderful fiancée.

And her family is extremely wealthy. And although I do not, and her parents and grandparents are extremely wealthy. So they,

They are, apparently I'm supposed to be signing a prenup, um, obviously before the marriage and kind of, we're going to go over that. And my question to you is how should I feel about that as well as, um, you know, what to look for in a prenup? Like what, I don't, I don't necessarily know what questions to ask my lawyer. And just one last thing is my income could be going from, you

you know, to 400, 500 plus over the next two to three years annually. So yeah, that would be my question. Yeah. Wow. How old is your fiance? She is, I am 28. She is 25. Does she have any money? No. And you didn't ask her for a prenup? I have not. No. The prenup was for the potential inheritance.

The prenup is for the potential inheritance. I have not had a sit-down discussion with them. When did the prenup discussion come up? After you were engaged? It was after we were engaged, yes. But I kind of had an idea. I don't know the specifics on their net worth, but they are extremely, extremely wealthy. Yeah, okay. So...

All right. You know, the only way I know how to answer a question is what would I do if I woke up in your shoes? Okay. So when my children were married, my net worth was in excess of $100 million already at that point. And none of them signed a prenup. And we didn't ask them to. None of my in-laws signed a prenup.

And we didn't ask them to. Now, I have my estate plan set up to where certain things are controlled only by Ramsey blood and trusts, so you can't get to them in the event of a divorce. Thing number one. Thing number two, I'm just not that guy, so I'm not worried about it. This is God's money. I'm managing it. I figure he can take care of it. I understand their concern if you were –

If you're making $30,000 a year or something, it would be more of a concern. But frankly, it's a little bothersome if I'm in your shoes. Not enough to cancel the whole thing, but it's troubling that these people, obviously they want to protect what they built and make sure it goes to their kids. Let me ask you, here's another thing I would want to find out, and I don't know. In most states, the divorce process,

stuff we've been involved in on the financial side and an amount of inheritance generally in the event of a divorce goes to the person that inherited the money. They don't split it in most states. So if you inherit your mama's house and you get a divorce, you get your mama's house. You don't split it with your ex in most states. Okay. Now I don't know Missouri law and I'm not a lawyer, but I've experienced that in,

you know, being called in in the middle of divorce situations where we're helping negotiate and all that. I've experienced that to be the facts that the judge or the statutes award that that way. So I would learn about that in Missouri. Number one, they may have that protection built into the law is what I'm saying. And then you've just got to decide how much you care about this issue.

Because I don't think, and what this issue means, what does it mean to your relationship? What does it mean to the family you are marrying? Because you're marrying her and her family. And so, you know, it's really low class that this came up after that.

You made a contract to get married. They bring up, oh, but by the way, after you've done a contract to get married called getting engaged, we're going to add something to the terms of the contract after you've already signed it. That's low class. I'm curious, Josh, what does your fiance think? How does she feel about this? Is she completely in line with the parents or does it make her feel weird? What's going on here?

To be honest, I mean, she's the oldest of four daughters total. And they're an awesome family, super down-to-earth people. But they've never really had to work. You're not answering my question. And you're being really nice because you're a classy dude. I'm going somewhere with this. How does she feel about it? When it came up, what was her comment on this deal?

She, I mean, she understands. She understands it. I mean, she, what I was getting at is she just doesn't really have, like, she doesn't know. So she's okay with it. My point is it wasn't a head tilt or a red flag or yellow flag. It was just like, oh, okay. Is that what I'm hearing? She does what she's told.

Exactly. Okay. That helps. She listens to her parents. Yeah, she listens to her parents. Well, that makes this relationally a little bit more difficult. Had she had the same feeling, the yucky feeling you had, I assume you have a yucky feeling about it? Or am I making the wrong assumption?

Well, I just like go back to what you guys feel about prenups and that it is an extreme situation. But like, I don't, you know, it doesn't feel good. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. Like, do I need to do anything on my end? What else is going to come up after you're married that they tell her what to do?

Well, the one other thing was, exactly. Yeah, the one other thing is, apparently, so the family are in development, so they're big into real estate, and they build houses and have a lot of land. Another thing is, apparently, they're going to be building us a house and putting it in a trust to where we don't have a payment. Apparently? Yeah. This has all been decided. Apparently? Yeah.

Wait a minute. This is my freaking house. There's no apparently. I'm involved in the decision. I think this ought to be premarital counseling. I bring it up with your fiance. I'm shooting up flares now. I think the two of you need to sit down with the pre-marriage counseling. You're getting married in June. This family has problems with leaving and cleaving. That's right. This is the Ramsey Show.

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Thanks for joining us, America. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today.

Open phones at 888-825-5225. George is in Sarasota, Florida. Hi, George. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hello, gentlemen. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So, moved with my family to Florida two years ago. Left my business in Washington State, and it's been there in Tacoma, Washington, for about

five years and in the last couple of years trying to, um, you know, work remotely managing the business. It was a struggle. Uh, we bought a piece of property here. We're planning to build and, uh, you know, a month ago, the business burned down basically completely. And now I'm trying to figure out what to do next as far as,

Um, maybe, you know, we saved up about $120,000 plus the land is worth about a hundred. And, uh, we are thinking either to start something new, like the business that I was doing there, which is auto wrecking.

on the smaller scale, or for me to just get a job, be more stable, sell the land, and buy a house, which is what my wife wants us to do. And we have three little kids, five, three, and eight months old. I assume you had good insurance. I had no insurance. Business was struggling, and yeah. So you just lost it. I lost it, yeah, pretty much.

Some stuff survived. I would say like 90% was lost. So what's the land worth? Because you own the real estate, right? I did not own the real estate. My landlord had the insurance for the building. But the land I purchased here we were planning to build on is worth about $100,000. And we have $120,000 in savings. And you're renting? Yes. Okay. Okay.

What would you do right now if you could just snap your fingers with the skill set you have, knowing your industry that would pay you the most? What would that be? There are a couple options. I have maybe going into consulting for a company, out of company, or I honestly work for myself my whole life, 36. And I don't know. So do you have trade skills?

I do have trade skills. I used to work in a body shop as a tech, as a repair and cars. And I can get back into that. What was the actual business? You said it was auto wrecking? Yes. What's that mean? That's recycling. A junkyard. It's like a junkyard. I was doing more of like indoor auto wrecking, which was

Parting cars out, selling used auto parts. Okay. So you would buy a totaled car, part it out, sell off the scrap, and sell off the parts. Correct. Indoors. And when you were in Tacoma and you all lived there and the business was flourishing, what did you make? What was your best year profit? Taxable profit. About $150,000. Okay. All right. What does it take to set that up? So you lost...

Up there, you lost tools and some inventory in the fire. Mm-hmm. Tools, equipment, inventory. What's it take to set the business up and get it running, not counting the land and the building? It would take some tools, some equipment. Yeah, like 50 grand, 40 grand? Probably around there, yeah, 40. Yeah, okay. What I would do if I were in your shoes is I would take some side gig hustles, hustle and grind to make a living, and

and I would go rent a warehouse somewhere, and I would sell your land. Now, if you sell the land, you've got $220,000, right? Correct. Okay, and we take $50,000 out of that, and now I've got $170,000 to put down on a house.

Okay. Okay. And I'm going to start the business in a rental property, not an owned piece of real estate. This time I'm going to put insurance on it. And you know how to make $150,000 a year parking out cars on the inside, inside of a warehouse, right? Yes. And you can get to doing, you can turn a profit within 90 days of doing that, can't you?

Yeah. Yeah. I figured you could because that's a quick turn business. You have the access to the supply of the totaled vehicles, and do you have a distribution for the parts to part them out? You know how to get them sold right quick? Because you weren't doing that on a local basis. You're doing that on a national basis. National and international, yeah. Yeah, the parting out is an Internet function, right? Yes, correct. Yeah, okay.

This is not like some good old boy in Sarasota wanders in and buys a transmission from you. You're parting this sucker out. You're sending every little piece all over the dadgum world out of this thing. And you know exactly what the... Yeah, 95%. You know the cars in your gut without even asking that have parts that are in high demand so you know what to buy. That's correct. Yeah, because the parts on that particular vehicle will sell. The parts on the other vehicle won't sell, so I don't screw with it, right? Right.

That's 100%. Yeah. This is his skills. It is. The issue that I want to address real quick is the relationship issue. Your wife wants you to get what she's calling a stable job. That means a salary. And so you've got to think through that. What is her concern? What's her big concern? Because I agree with Dave. You can absolutely do that. I would be working in some trades, and I'd ease into it a little bit based on what's happened. But I want to know what she's so worried about.

She's worried about me being home and having less stress because I had to leave. Well, we decided to leave to Florida. I had to work from home. Why did you move to Florida? It was just something we wanted to do. Bull crap. Why did you move to Florida?

Okay, so there is a little bit of politics. It's closer to my wife's family and better for our kids. There you go. Okay, that's fair. That's a good answer. All right. Now, yes, so I'm with Ken. You can do the parting out on the side at first until you get it up and running, but you can make more doing this than you can any trade job or any side hustle. Agreed?

Yes. This is the way you make your family the most money is reopen this business and run it. But don't get in the real estate business. Be in the part business. Mm-hmm.

rent the dadgum warehouse from somebody. Let them deal with the real estate like you did before. This time carry insurance on your stuff, for God's sakes. But other than that, yeah. And so you can drop 50K there. You can set 170 aside for a house, start talking about when we're going to buy the house. Actually, the truth is that you may want to rent for two years and establish a really good income as a self-employed person to qualify for a decent mortgage guarantee.

out of this particular business. But you're not, you know, you got to get that business really rocking for two years to be able to use that money to qualify for the mortgage because you're going to have two years of self-employed income to prove it out. Otherwise, you're going to be making 60 or 80 doing a trade and that's the base of the house you're going to buy.

So if I'm you guys, if I can get my wife on board, I'm going to say, let's get a rental and have a two-year plan. I'm going to work my tail end off. We're going to get this business up and running, and then I'm going to quit the side job and run the business full-time. I'm going to come home at 5 o'clock, and I'm going to hire staff and people working for me so I don't have to be gone all the time. And we run a business during normal business hours, and we grow it, and we're going to make $250,000.

because we're going to staff up and we're going to run, you know, hire some marketing people, some tech people, as well as some people to do the actual wrench turning. And let's get this thing up and going. And three years from now, you ought to be making serious money. That's that and buy a house with 170 down or 150 down. Keep 20 as your emergency fund. But yeah, you're, you know,

Considering you had no insurance and considering you didn't have a good plan before, you've got a lot of good options in front of you. He really does. In great financial shape, minus the insurance issue. Yeah, exactly. And if you'd have the insurance, you'd have been another 50 ahead or whatever it is or more. Yeah, that's lesson learned. Lesson learned. This is The Ramsey Show.

Hey guys, George Camel here. Let's be real. If I had a dollar for every time Ramsey Solutions gave away free money, I'd probably be rich enough to give out my own cash prizes. And here's another one for you. We're giving away $20,000 at the Take Control of Your Money livestream on January 23rd. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely signing up for this event. Plus, my friends Dave Ramsey, Jade Warshaw, and Rachel Cruz...

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Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Ben is in New York. Hi, Ben. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi, how are you doing? Great, man. What's up?

I am currently living with my parents. I am 29. I've been saving for several years now, and I'm trying to figure out if I am ready to buy a house and if I can afford to get my own place at this point. Okay. How much do you have saved? $100,000. Okay. What keeps you from leaving there and buying a house?

Um, well, I was mostly just trying to reach a certain, I was trying to reach that goal of a hundred, a hundred KC. You got a hundred K you got a hundred K. I mean, common sense tells me you could go buy a house in Albany with a hundred K you're 29 years old. How much do you make? Uh, about 70, 75. Cool. All right. I would definitely do it like this week.

You think that's a good idea? Because I didn't want to rent. I didn't want to be throwing out money. Dude, impulsive is not on your list of things to do. We don't have to worry about you being impulsive. You're 29. You live at home. You're not impulsive. Okay? Time to go. Yes. Go get you a house. Get you a life. Yeah, for sure. No, I like it. I love it, man. So how much do you make again? 70. What do you do? 70. I work in accounting.

Okay. You are risk averse, aren't you? Man, you're just, hey, it's time, man. Go out in the sun. See the sunshine. You are a numbers dude. I love you. I'm a nerd. I'm a numbers nerd too, man. So I'm right there with you, Ben. You've been crunching numbers and crunching numbers and crunching numbers. And the problem with those numbers nerds is, and you're one, I'm one. So I'm owning it with you. We can get paralysis of the analysis and you have a bad case.

Sure. Get a house. Get a life. Go have some fun, man. And tell your mama you love her, and you'll see her in five months. I mean, she's going to be glad to get rid of you, I promise. I don't think she is, actually. I think that's part of the problem. He's an easy guy to live with. He is. But let me tell you something.

It's not like he's having parties in the basement or something. We're seeing more and more of this, and I'm not picking on Ben, but I do want to say this. Ben, go buy a house. There's two things that are going on. Number one, he's got the analysis paralysis situation. Yeah. But he also, along with the fear of change, is how comfortable he is at mom's house. And that can just keep you – because you can justify staying –

by using the numbers. And I think you've got to be realistic. How much of this is, I'm just afraid to kind of go out and start adulting. That wasn't even a term 10 years ago, and I hate saying it. I'm a little embarrassed that I even uttered it. But I mean, it's time for a lot of... A great callback. But yeah, I just think we got too many young 20-somethings that are just terrified of change.

and we gotta call that let me just tell you when you're out there and on the wire and there's no net uh it is terrifying yeah it's also exhilarating and it it's also what makes you a man or makes you a woman my son yeah so yeah um i hey um you know yes ben you should go buy a house and we're not picking on you but you did open a can of worms so we'll deal with it for a second um

Here's the thing. Moms and dads, you're not doing your kiddos favors when you leave them in the nest too long. A eagle that stays in the nest too long becomes known as a turkey.

And Ben, I didn't just call you a turkey. I'm talking about a concept here. Okay. So Ben, you're, you're free from this. You were, we love you. We're happy for you. I'm glad you got a hundred K. You need to buy a house in the next month and you need to move immediately for your sake. And it's good. It's good. You know, we're there, but, uh, so our oldest, when she came out of school, easy kid, uh,

Oh, yeah. Denise to this day. She's just a pleasant, easy person. And and she moved back to her. She's only one of them moved back to our house after college. And she was waiting on a roommate situation to develop so she could go get the first rental property. Right. And so she's living there for about two months. And we said, OK, that's probably enough. And she's like, what? I'm like, you know, you got it. You got to get this done.

Not because we don't like you. She was not in our way. She's like Ben. She could have lived there and we wouldn't have noticed. She'd been there until she was 29. We wouldn't have noticed. But we're like, no, you are missing out on life.

When you're 22, 23, 25 years old and you live in your mama's basement, you're missing out on life. Yeah. And so you need to go be somebody. And it breaks our heart because we love you. We like having you around. But it's not about us. It's about you and your development as a person, your emotional, your psychological, your spiritual development, your financial development. You become a different person when you buy your own eggs and pay your own light bill. Mm-hmm.

And fold your own clothes. Or don't. But they're your clothes. Yeah. And that just changes. There's a little thing happens there. A little different thing. And again, Ben, for God's sakes, we're not picking on you. Okay? You called up. You're a nice young man. We appreciate you. None of this is aimed at you. But I'm just telling you, folks, moms and dads, you are stunting their growth. 100%. Reminds me of that movie with Matthew McConaughey, Failure to Launch. It was a horrible movie. Yeah.

No, I think it's a great rom-com. Matthew has done some really good work in his life, and that is not on the list. This is exciting, folks. Dave Ramsey with a strong opinion on a rom-com. I never thought I'd see the day. This is great. If your co-star is Terry Bradshaw, I'm just saying. You're right. The quality of the script writing was low. I'll give you that. But when Stacey wants to see it, I say, okay. Yeah, well, yeah, there is that. I'm blaming it on her. Yeah, I would.

I'm blaming it on you. Joe is in Louisville, Kentucky. Hi, Joe. What's up? Hi. Thanks for having me, guys. How are you? Better than we deserve. How can we help?

Good. So just quick background. Last year I left a job that I was at for about 15 years. Since then, I've been struggling to find a job to make what I need to make to pay the bills. And I'm primarily using job boards, and they just seem to not be going anywhere. Oh, they're awful. That's horrible. Yeah. Resources out there, I guess. What were you making? Yeah.

I was making about $130,000 a year. Doing what? It was commissioned, so it kind of went up and down. Sales and management. Okay. And why did you walk out the door without having anything to go to?

Uh, well, they, uh, had a new ownership come through and one of the first changes they made was pay, uh, for the regional managers. So I ended up, um, was on the pace for about 70 K after they, uh, took over. Okay. So cut your pay and you said you should stick it. Okay. I got that. Yeah. All right. So have you been working? Have you been working? Okay.

Yeah, I've been working. I'm currently making right now about $55,000 a year. So do you know how to sell? Yes, I can sell. What were you selling before when you were making $130,000? It was furniture.

Wholesale or to customers? I mean, or to consumers? I'm sorry? Yeah, to customers. So retail to customers. Wow. I got to tell you, my mom sold furniture, was a manager of a large furniture chain for 35 years. And if you can make that kind of money in furniture, those margins aren't that high anymore.

you've got a lot of options in front of you right now, a lot. And you've got to stop job boarding and you've got to start having coffee with people that you know, civic clubs, churches, you know people. And look, you can sell anything. You're not a guy who's stuck in an industry. In other words-

You aren't just effective in the furniture industry. You know a product. You know a service. Not only can you sell it, Joe, but you led a team of people. Medical device sales, you can make two and a quarter. Easy. Easy. So I've looked at some medical...

like sales jobs. I just feel like, you know, I don't feel like it's, you know, I'm qualified, I guess, for it. Do you just apply anyway? Yes. There aren't doctors making the sales. There are sales people making sales to doctors. Yeah. I got a friend who's a former college football player. I'm not knocking football players. He's advising surgeons on

on orthopedic devices in the operating room. Not because he's a genius, because they trained him on the devices. Dave's right. You don't need anything other than a willingness to learn and basic intelligence, and you have both of those in droves. Hey, we're going to send you Ken's book, From Paycheck to Purpose. I want you to go on his website and learn his... Oh, no. Also, we're going to send you Proximity Principle. That's what he needs. Because that's what you do instead of job boards. It'll help you do what you're supposed to do.

Hey, Dave Ramsey here. Dr. John Deloney and I are coming to a city near you on the Money and Relationships Tour. You, the audience, will vote to choose the topics we talk about, things that impact your life, like investing in your future, money, stress, and marriage.

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Get current and get paid off. Go to Yrefy.com slash Ramsey today. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Andre in Indiana. I'm being managed.

out of my job at my current employer. When I realized what was happening, I got ahead of it and have turned in my resignation so I won't have a termination on my employment record. I have several interviews lined up and I'm not worried about finding another position. My question is, how should I approach obtaining a letter of reference from my current employer should I need it?

Well, you're going to approach it now before you leave the building. Number one. Number two, you're going to approach it with some gratitude and humility and just say, hey, I appreciate this opportunity to be here. And I would love if you feel comfortable being a reference for me and give me a reference letter upon request. Are you comfortable with that? It's just a man-to-man conversation or man-to-woman conversation. And that's about all you can do there. And hopefully you've left well. Yeah.

We don't know what the situation here is, but I'm such a proponent for people leaving well. Even if you feel like you're not supposed to be there anymore, even if you feel like you've got some tension, you feel like maybe it wasn't the best situation for you, leaving well and not burning that bridge is always the right way to go because you have to assume that any future employer is going to call your past employer.

And so humility and gratitude in class would be the three ingredients in the ask. And by the way, with every remaining second you have at that place before you leave, act with class. Yeah. Smile, act with class, do everything. So most employers, Andre, do not give references on formers because of the liability. Right.

And so we don't. If someone calls here, the only thing we'll confirm is that they worked here between this date and that date. And that's the only thing we'll tell you. We won't say whether they're awesome. I didn't realize that. That's good for me to know. I did not. I've heard of that. I didn't know that. Because we don't want to get sued. Right.

because we referred them or told somebody, you know, this guy, he wasn't good. And then you turn around and you get all this other stuff on you. So, yeah, we just, and that's not that unusual in the employment market, we've learned. When we're trying to check references, it's tough to get people to actually give you a reference. I want to sidestep, Ken, I want you to coach for a second here, and I want to join you in it.

Um, let's pretend that Andre, I'm going to make up something for Andre. I don't know anything about him. So this is all pretend. Sure. Okay. Let's pretend he's 26 and this is his second job. And he says, I'm being managed out of my job. Now, if you were working at Ramsey, we don't manage people out of a job. We do manage them if they're not competent. Okay.

We're going to talk to you about it and help you work on your competence. We do manage you and talk to you about it and create uncomfortable conversations. If you're not handling your relationships with others inside the building, well, if you're being a twerp, okay. And so, um, being the, being the potential employer of someone in this situation, uh,

I wouldn't take the position I'm being managed out. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you've got a pure political situation going on. I mean, just because someone tells you to suck it up buttercup and get better, that is not being managed out. That's correct. So if I were coaching Andre, I would ask a lot of detailed questions about

What does that actually mean? And to the best of my ability, be able to discern, well, you're not being managed out, or maybe you are. Now, what it's going to look like in this case, if we're assuming what he's saying, is that someone is basically making you as uncomfortable as possible, not in a way of leading you for growth,

and having an uncomfortable conversation with your growth in mind, but actually being a turd to you to get you to quit because they don't want to fire you. Does that happen? It does. But in this case, that's bad leadership. So I would be asking enough questions to find out what's really going on. And to your point, if they are holding you to a standard that they hired you to keep,

You aren't being managed out. You're being held accountable for what they're paying you for. So I would be diving into what's really going on and then coaching from there. And in many cases, and I'm going to say this. Just because you're uncomfortable. That's right. Doesn't mean you're being managed out. That's correct. Or held to a standard. Right. And so what we've got to determine, we're seeing this a lot with the younger generation, accountability is really, really hard. We had one a while back that just couldn't seem to get to work on time.

wander in an hour late and we say, you know, well, you're creating stress by, yeah, that's kind of like what we do here. We create stress for you. You need to be here on time. If that's stressful, just suck it up. I mean, that's a, I know. Oh, I'm sorry about your anxiety. Get your butt to work on time. Okay. This is what we do. And so, uh, and that's about how it would sound. I mean, we might be a little kinder than that, but you know, it's a pretty simple thing. We opened the building at a certain time and you need to be here by then.

Yeah. You have to reframe it. It's not creating stress, right? They say that. I'm not creating stress. No. But it's like anyone that ever told me I'm not perfect in the apple of my mother's eye now is managing me out. That's just a bunch of crap. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay. So now there's two possibilities. You're being that. I'm not saying that Andre is, but be careful when you're using a phrase like I'm being managed out. You are taking the position of victim, and you might not be the victim. That's right.

That's what I'm saying. You might be the victim. You might be a bunch of political junk and they're moving the chess pieces around trying to knock you over and get you out because they don't want you there and they don't have the backbone to just fire you. You know, the metaphor I would use here, Dave, is are you being coached or

Or are you being mistreated? There you go. And a coach, and I usually return to sports because I grew up playing sports. Discomfort does not mean you're being mistreated. Yeah, you know, I watch these NFL training camps. These are millionaires. And the coach is pulling them off the field, and they are coaching them up. They're getting out those little Microsoft pads on the sideline, and they're showing these young quarterbacks that are franchise quarterbacks. Here's what you did wrong on this interception. That's not mistreating that kid.

That is coaching that kid on what they expect of them because they're paying them millions of dollars a year. And the same metaphor holds true in the workplace. Is your leader coaching you or are they mistreating you? Yeah, that's true. There's a wide gap. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying because we spend a lot of time and money to hire you and get you in here. That's right. And so we're not going to manage anybody out.

Yeah, it costs you more to replace them. Exactly. We're going to try to help you make it. That's exactly right. But that may involve discomfort. And it should. Usually doing something you've never done before or something you suck at and you've got to get better is discomfort. It's not comfortable. It's outside your comfort zone. A quarterback feels really uncomfortable when he runs off the field after throwing an interception because there's 75,000 people that are mad at him and his head coach. But guess what? That's

That's the price of admission. That is the ticket to the BME. So step it up. So again, I think that's a good clarification. Are you being coached? And if you are, expect discomfort because that's what's called growth. That's right. And you're moving up and in. If you're being mistreated, then you're being managed out. But either one of those could fall under this –

I don't like the phrase is what I'm saying. It feels very victim. I felt the same thing when I saw it. But it could be that he might be the victim of some toxic politics. It very well could. That happens all the time. There's no question they're bad leaders. Because spineless leaders will do stuff like that that's passive-aggressive rather than just fire somebody. That's right. So you don't have that trouble here. We're going to tell you this is what we're doing. If it doesn't work, we're going to tell you it didn't work.

We're not scared. We're not afraid. And we're not mean. And we're not unkind. So, hey guys, for all of you listening to the show on YouTube or the podcast, it's about to end. You can get the entire show, including the next segment.

on the Ramsey Network app, which is free. Download it in the App Store or Google Play. You can go out the full video or audio podcast production, either one of the whole thing, but certainly the last segment every day. So click in the show notes and check it out. We'd love to have you join us. The Ramsey Network app in the App Store. The whole thing's free. We're not charging a thing for this. This is The Ramsey Show.

What up, what up? It's Dr. John Deloney from the Dr. John Deloney Show with some amazing news. The latest episode of United States of Anxiety is available right now exclusively on the Ramsey Network app.

This docuseries follows real people from my show as they embark on a 90-day journey to transform their lives, and I personally walk alongside them every step of the way. Okay, now, here's a sneak peek of what the new episode is all about. And don't forget to click the link in the show notes to download the app.

What's up, Kelsey? So I've lived with crippling anxiety for as long as I can remember. How do I stop it from constantly coming up in different areas of my life? What does crippling anxiety mean? Paint me a picture of that. All right, so you're ready to jump in? I'm ready to jump in. We're going to check in with Kelsey 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. I cannot even function because I'm just crying.

My mom left us when I was four. I truly felt like for a while I had no family. She's experiencing things that really hurt a long time ago. Tell me about this boy. He triggers me a lot.

Scared of losing Paul, scared of doing the wrong thing, scared of not being enough. It just feels like it would be exhausting to be Kelsey. It is. Whenever somebody's playing whack-a-mole with their anxiety, when it just keeps moving, that tells me the underlying system's not okay. How do I get my inner child out of this relationship? Because I feel like she's running the show. One of two people that's supposed to never leave took off. How is this burden? You're burdened, that's right. To the one person.

Who should carry it? All of it. Did you ever tell that little girl that it wasn't her fault? I don't know what to do. You either have to choose to let this guy love you or you got to choose to let this guy go.