There Are No Magic Shortcuts To Financial Freedom
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Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. From the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Camel here with my good friend, Dr. John Bologna, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Sarah is in Norfolk, Virginia, coming up first. What's going on, Sarah?

Hi, my husband and I have been a Dave Ramsey family for quite a while. We're on Baby Step 7. Awesome. And so, yes, it's wonderful. But that means that we're trying to be helpful to family members who need help with advice. And one of them is my dad. I have two siblings and one of them is an addict pretty much his whole life. And

And he's my father is really struggling with how to handle inheritance because he really is feeling like anything he were to put in his hands could really be basically signing his death certificate. So what kind of thoughts do you have or advice or what have you shared with other people regarding something like this? Well,

What type of addiction is he struggling with? It doesn't really matter, but I'm interested. It's been mostly meth. To my knowledge, he's been in and out of prison and rehab. He's in jail right now. And, you know, we are praying for redemption, but he doesn't seem to be able to hold it together very long.

And although, you know, maybe we would have our miracle and see complete change, but we kind of have to plan on that not happening. How much money are we talking about? My dad's net worth is probably in the like seven, eight hundred thousand range. So be a couple hundred grand when it's all said and done. Right. Plus a house or whatever. OK.

Well, I'll tell you what Dave Ramsey would do and what he would say. And he would say, you're not in the inheritance if you're an addict because of the reasons you just mentioned. It'll kill your brother. And so there's nothing – that doesn't make your dad a bad person. This is not how he wanted it to go down. It's not of his choosing. Your sibling chose to not be a part of –

this family and this inheritance due to their behavior, even if it was, you know, whatever the addiction is. And so I would make it clear to your dad that giving this money to the sibling is a bad choice and I would leave them out of it unless there is some clear redemption later on down the road and then we can change it. So just know this is not like a forever thing. We all have hope that things can change, but for now he's not going to be in it. He's not in the will. And I think for that, I think for that very reason, cause it would kill him.

Right. And so in this, it sounds strange to punish them. It's actually the most compassionate thing that I could do is not hand somebody who struggles with meth for his whole life, a quarter of a million dollars. Right. If it was my kid and I was in this exact same situation and my daughter, I'm looking to split my estate. I would probably put a chunk of money either in some sort of trust that was specifically for rehabilitation or

That would I would designate to be used at your discretion, you being one of the kids or probably I wouldn't. And, you know, as I'm thinking about that, I wouldn't put you in that situation because I don't want to make you a target of your brother. Right. Yeah. And so I would designate in a trust and have the trustee say if and when you're interested in rehabilitation, there's this money in this. And but it will go directly because that's.

The custodian of that trust would write a check to the rehab place. It'll never touch your sibling's hands. Right. Right.

Right. Yeah, that was a concern for my dad. You know, he's wanting me to be executor and power of attorney, but saying, I can't put you in that position because your brother will be on your doorstep, you know? And I think that's very wise. My house is the exact same way. I actually asked a friend who tells people no for a living. He's the executor of my will. He's basically a brother. I've known him for 35 plus years, but...

And that's simply so that my family will have the privilege of just being able to be sad and not have to then go to war with each other. It's a drama prevention tool. Yeah. Now, so you're saying then pick an individual outside of the family I trusted. Yeah, or you could even use a corporate trustee. Yeah. I mean, they're out there. There are services that provide these trustees that can manage this. And so the key is you just don't want it to be one of the siblings. Right.

That's holding the pot of gold. Unless you don't care, right? If you're like, dude, I could care less. I'm happy to tell brother no. And I'll put this money in a Vanguard account or a high yield savings account. And when he's ready, it'll be there. And if he's not, then at date X, it triggers and then it goes into my kid's college fund or however you want to do it. Yeah. And your dad can figure that out. Most siblings, I would recommend don't, you don't want to put each other against each other, right?

Right, right. Yeah, that's definitely a concern. I mean, I feel like I could say no, but I just feel like, you know, I mean, he's in jail for a reason. So there would be ramifications, I imagine. How old is your dad? He is in his early 70s. All of my brothers and I are in our 40s. One thing, if you haven't already...

One thing of writing this will out is a, I don't really know how to say this without sounding dorky. So I'm just going to say it and interpret it how you will. Okay. But this is one of those moments when your dad has to understand the gravity of his son's situation.

Yeah.

I know this is hard and the most compassionate thing you can do for your son is to not give him this money right now. And, and that will be a gift to him, to your dad. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think this is why he's struggling with making the call. I think he knows what he needs to do, but he's really been, you know, back and forth with me on, on what it should be. But if you, if you come forward and say,

I'm releasing you dad. Cause he may feel like he has to make you the executor. Right. I don't want to do that to her too. Hey dad, like for whatever it's worth, I don't want this role. I think you should use your friend bill or this service that I looked up online and they're great and they'll do it for us. And that way I don't have to go to war with my brother. And I think it will, I think it would be cruel if you give my brother $250,000 cause it'll kill him. Yeah. And that might free your dad. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I think there is something that's preventing him from just moving forward. Yeah. It's probably a whole bunch of shame that your brother's struggles are because your dad did something wrong. Most dads feel that way. Yeah, I imagine. Yeah. Mom's too, but it's your dad. Where's your mom in this picture? She's passed away already. Okay. Okay. Are you working with an estate attorney already?

He has spoken just briefly with somebody, and I feel like they have kind of said, well, whatever you want to do kind of thing. And so nobody is really, like, firmly guiding him on what the options truly are. So I feel like, you know, he's come to me several times, and we've talked about it. And, you know, I'm just kind of like, whatever you feel like you want to do, Dad. But I do think that...

If he had maybe some more clear direction, like the trustees that you guys were talking about, that might be helpful. Because you can have two. There's the executor of the will, but then if there's a trust, there can be a trustee of the trust. You might be able to split these up, and that's why I encourage you to talk to an attorney and just tell them straight up, hey, we need guidance here. Tell us what you think is in the best interest of our family. But some of the guidance that you give him directly, dad, here's what I would love to see you do, might just free your old man. Finally.

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Hi, I have a question. I am divorced and my ex-husband has asked me to give up the spousal support alimony that he is supposed to pay. And I'm struggling with what the right decision is because I have some guilt over the fact I had an affair at the end of our marriage. And I really just want to do the right thing. Is your affair the reason y'all got divorced?

No. Why'd you get divorced? Because I was at the end of my rope. I was done trying. I was done going to counseling over and over and begging for things to change and they wouldn't. So there was a whole context. So why is he calling you now and asking you to give up spousal support?

Because he didn't want it from the beginning, and when I filed the paperwork, I requested it, and he never responded, so the judge gave me everything I asked for. Why didn't he respond? I don't know why he didn't respond. He was giving the notice. He was like, that would have been the time to make my opinion heard, is in the courtroom. Yeah.

And the judge decreed this is fair, right? I mean, they said, hey, this is what you want. We think this is fair. It was the judge's call. Well, sometimes that fairness comes with a penalty. Like, oh, if you're not even going to respond, then I'm going to give her everything, which is a common. It's like a response slash penalty, right? Yes. Yeah. He was given a notice when he received the paperwork that he had the 120 days to respond or a judgment could be placed against him, but he didn't respond. How much are you getting every month? $1,000.

Well, I haven't gotten anything. It's been almost two years and he hasn't paid anything. But now the state's coming after him and he's supposed to pay me $800 a month. So does he owe you two years back pay plus next month? Yeah, it's like 23 months at this point. Okay. That and the child support. So he sounds like he has a habit of just thinking things will go away. Wow, you really hit the nail on the head with that. Yeah.

Why do you feel guilty? Like you did a thing and it violated your conscience. I would say don't have an affair. You had one, right? We all know that. Let's move past that. Tell me about why you're calling because it can't just be because of that. You feel sorry for this guy. Do you not need this money? And it's more for the principle of the thing. Like, tell me why you're really calling. Yeah.

Well, I do need the money. I don't need it for the entirety of my life, which is pretty much what the divorce decree says. But, I mean, I'm in a financial hardship. He makes like almost three times as much as I do. So, yeah, I do need the money. But I also, I mean, in the long run, like I feel guilty taking it.

I feel like if I hadn't had an affair, I wouldn't feel guilty taking it. Like I owe him something because of that. I think it's deeper than that. I could be wrong. I only have a few minutes to talk to you. But my guess is you've always been a peacekeeper and you've always been the person trying to make sure everybody else is OK. And you messed up. And underneath all that, it's like I'm not worth this money either. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So do you have a, and here's the thing, like there's an economic reality. Do y'all have kids? We do. Okay. What's the, is this, is the child support on top of alimony? Yeah. Has he paying that? No. Okay. Well, I would have stopped feeling bad a long time ago. The first words that just came into my mind was then burn him to the ground. And I know that's not helpful. And that's not why I get paid to do my show. Cause usually I'm getting paid to be more thoughtful, but I have little to no regard for grown men who don't take care of their kids.

And so this is a guy who is – This is not vengeful toward the ex. This is now I've given up on my kids. Yeah. Well, and in fairness, we split them 50-50. It doesn't matter. He takes care of them when he has them. Well, like high five, right? But this is a guy that serially thinks the rules don't apply, and it doesn't matter. I'm just going to go do what I'm going to do.

You lived with that forever. The judge is experiencing that. And now the government has to come regulate because he won't take care of his business. And he's probably got outpaid, unpaid parking tickets. And he's probably the guy that rolls through the toll booth and is like, it's cool, man. And parks in the handicap parking spot and then gets mad when he gets a ticket. Like that just guy just gets under my skin because the rules don't apply to him. And yeah,

Here's the deal. If I were you and I have a job and I am splitting custody 50-50, this is just me. And you can take this for what you would. I would, over time, feel weird about continuing to get a check. I would want to become financially independent. And...

If in this season I'm not there yet, then I would not have heartache about using this small piece of money, $800, as a bridge to get me to economic independence. That would be my goal. But that's not a moral issue. That's not a character issue. The judge has ruled what the judge ruled. That would just be me looking me in the mirror. Do you have any debt, Dawn?

I have one debt and that is my student loan and it's $100,000. That'll do. That's the only debt you need at that point. What do you do for a living? I work in law enforcement. Okay. So you don't make very much money.

No, I do not. No. Okay. And I never will. Right. But I feel like my job has purpose, so I'm okay with that. Of course it does. Extraordinary purpose. And embarrassingly underpaid for the amount of purpose it has. As a taxpayer watching all these things fly across the news channels the last few months, I think of the teachers and the police officers in my local community and the firefighters, and it's disgusting to me. But it is what it is.

That's not going to be solved on this call. And I'm in a bad mood now because that guy's not paying child support. Now you made John mad. Golly, I get sideways quick on that. Actions have consequences. Your action of having the affair, that has consequences. You feel terrible about it. There's a lot of regret and guilt there that you're going to have to work through. That might take some counseling and therapy. And his actions also have consequences. His just looks like the courts and sheriffs at his door.

demanding that he pay or they'll garnish his wages or whatever comes next. And so we all have to face the consequences and face the music. And so my response to him would be like, this is what the judge decreed. We need this money to take care of my obligations and the kids. This is what you agreed to. And by him not voting, he voted. That's right. In that 120 day period where he didn't respond, he cast his vote and said, do what you want.

And so he has to live with the consequences of that. Now, whether that's forever, I don't know. But right now, you sure could use some money to pay off $100,000 in debt. Yes, absolutely. So I wouldn't feel guilty about taking the money. I would try to compartmentalize this and say, I feel guilty about the affair. I'm not going to feel guilty about supporting my family and my kids and my situation. And a lot of the guilt can be used as fuel if you have a plan. Yeah.

If you get $800 as part of a payment every month, you're going to get a lump sum of what? What's 23 times 18? $18,400, John. If you get a check for $18,400 and you don't send 100% of that to your student loan and you go shopping with it or you go on vacation with it, then that will you be participating in this out-of-control, guilty, mushy, non-intentional feeling that you have, right? Yeah.

But if you have a every month is $800 comes in and I'm putting every penny I can on top of that 800 bucks to go into pay off this stupid student loan. There will be some intentionality to it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. So I think some of that's just you making a deal with yourself that I'm going to keep my promises to myself and coming up with a really good plan.

If you'll hang on the line, we're going to hook you up with EveryDollar. It's the premium. It's the budgeting app of the millennia. It's awesome. But I want you to use that, but I want you to really, really use it and see where this $800 isn't going to go to just going out or whatever.

it's going to go to actually putting the pedal to the floor. And maybe you get your student loan paid off and you've got a small raise and you get promoted and you can say, dude, I don't want your money anymore. Maybe we get there. But I love the idea of you being really hyper-intentional that when that money comes in, I'm going to use it. Hang on, Don. We'll get you the EveryDollar Premium app. Wishing you the best as you begin building for the future and hopefully quit dwelling on the past. This is The Ramsey Show. ♪

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Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a really big fan. Appreciate that. So I got approached, my mother-in-law approached my husband and I recently about, she was talking about basically getting a debt consolidation loan. So that kind of led us into talking to her about her financial situation and learned that she has about $62,000 worth of debt. Yeah.

My mom, my mother-in-law, she works part-time, and she also receives Social Security and a very, very small pension. So she doesn't make a tremendous amount of money. And so she was asking for some advice, and I just want to make sure I'm giving her the right advice because her margin and her budget is not really large. In fact, her minimum payments equal more than what her salary.

margin is. So basically the debt snowball, it's, I just want to make sure, you know, I told her that she should probably just hold off on paying her minimum payments on most, if not all of her debt and just tackle one debt at a time. I just kind of want to know what your guys' input or insight would be. So what are her total bills costs, all of her expenses plus the minimum payments every month?

Um, so her, her total bills, so the, for her debts themselves, they're about, um, 14, 50 a month. And that doesn't include her, is she living on her own? Is she renting? She, she actually owns her home. She bought the home cash. So she really doesn't have a whole lot of like household, um, monthly bills outside of her debts. Um. Okay. So it's food, insurance, taxes, things like that.

Yeah. And how much is she making total from her part-time work, Social Security pension? So on a low month, it's about $3,100. That's just, I kind of asked her like what her lowest paycheck would be every two weeks. That's her take-home pay? Yeah, yeah. Okay. And what kind of debt is the $62,000?

So when she purchased this home, I feel bad. She moved closer to be near my husband and I, and she bought a home cash, but the home needed a whole lot of renovations. And I think she got in over her head. So a few of the debts are for like windows, siding, insulation to the home itself. And then of course, there's quite a few credit cards.

How much is the house worth? She purchased it a couple years ago for about $140,000. Okay. I'm assuming with the renovations and some time, it's appreciated? I haven't done any research on what it's worth now, but I'm sure it's appreciated. I hope it has, especially with the work that's been done, yeah. And is she able to work more?

She's been trying, actually. She is. I mean, she's like 71, 72 years old. So she is trying to get more hours, though. Yeah. Well, I've been accused of telling the elderly to go back to work, so I'm not going to encourage her to do that. I will. I do think the only way out of this is either here's the options that I see.

If she doesn't make minimum payments, it's going to go to collections and people will start coming after her. It's going to destroy her financial world and cause a lot of stress and harm. So I would encourage her, cover her bills first, food, utilities, housing, transportation. Beyond that, keep up with minimum payments. And if she can put any extra, then go for it. But it doesn't sound like she's going to have that unless she works more. The other option I see is she sells this home and downsizes to a different home in cash and uses the profits to pay off her debts. Right.

Oh, because that'll free up 1450. Of course. Yeah. Now, I don't know what you can find in the area. That's, you know, if she can sell it for 200 and she nets 180, she pays off her debt. That leaves her with 120. I don't know where that leaves her as far as home buying. That is a whole other topic just because I don't think she would be willing to do that. And why is that?

Uh, well, she purchased a home to be near us. And, um, she's about to be real near y'all like in your back bedroom. No, believe me, we've talked about that as well. And that's not, I know, I know, but I want you to like hear, hear what Georgia's saying, Jill, like every single month she's alive, she's, she's getting further behind.

So she, it's not about love and it's not about care and grandkids. It's a math problem. It's either you work full time, maybe even doing a better job or you sell the house and downsize. That's the hard conversation you're about to have. She literally doesn't have enough money every month to pay her bills.

Or she lets it all go to collections, collections comes after her, they sue her, and then one day she passes away and they write it off. Right. That's not how I want to go, personally. No, of course not. I want to go with dignity and with God. Yeah. Does she have any sort of retirement at all?

No. So y'all are going to be taking care of her anyway, right? Well, I mean, that is why another reason why she moved closer, I think, to us is because I think she, you know, my husband is probably the best person in our family who could possibly, my husband and I, obviously. Sure. How are you guys doing financially?

We're really good. I mean, we're on, you know, maybe steps four, five, and six. So we're working towards paying our home off. Amazing. So, yeah, I mean, we've made a lot of financial mistakes in the past, but we found you guys about a year ago, and it really did change our outlook. Welcome to the cult, dude. Welcome to the cult. It's awesome. No, I truly appreciate it.

We've had a lot of conversations between he and I about her moving in, and although we are willing, I think she's going to struggle with that. She owns animals. She has a lot of stuff. That feels expensive for a broke person. Yep. I know. How many animals are we talking? Is this like Noah's Ark? What does she have back there? Please don't tell me there's a horse. Three dogs and four dogs.

Wow. So the dogs are eating good and she's barely getting by. I mean, no. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I hope the dogs are eating. I hope they're well taken care of.

Be fair. She didn't come from a whole lot. She worked minimum wage jobs her entire life, you know, raised three kids on her own. Like she, this is kind of the, you know, she, this is what she knows. And so we're trying to help her navigate a better way. But, um, I think the best thing you can do, and this goes almost opposite to what I normally tell people, because I almost always say, Hey, money to quote Jade Warshaw is money's not a math problem. It's a psychology problem. Um,

I think the biggest breakthrough here for your mother-in-law is going to be, hey, we have a big math problem that we can't solve.

And it's easy to say, well, I can't sell those dogs. Of course you can't sell dogs. Like I'm not getting rid of that or I'm not doing this. And it's literally saying, Hey, this, this ends and it ends badly. It ends with you getting sued by a whole bunch of people. It ends with people coming after your car, after your house, after your dogs, after your lizard is it's like it, they will harass you till the end of time. And at the end of the day, you end up living with us anyway, because you have no retirement at all. None. None.

And so we're going to get there eventually, right? Because there's not even, I mean, there's not even any money to move her into a home or anything, right? Does she have Social Security? Yes. Okay. Can she get a Golden Girl situation, get a roommate? She's got a big old house to herself?

It's not big at all. It doesn't sound big. Well, big enough that it's two bedrooms. Her dogs are real dogs, not small like your dogs. They don't take up a whole bedroom. Yeah. I'm guessing she would be unwilling to get a roommate. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, she's not willing to give up the animals to come stay with us. So I doubt she would be.

The only thing I can suggest is sitting down and saying we have a math problem here and we need your input, not on how you feel about stuff, but how you want to solve this because this is all going to go away. And since it's going to go away, yeah, we want to be in the driver's seat of this new direction, but the new direction is going to be forced upon us. And they're all going to be hard choices. But as my friend, Dr. John Deloney would say, you got to choose reality. I want her to keep the house and the dogs and have a farm.

have the cake and eat it too but that's not the reality we find ourselves in when we're $62,000 in debt at 71 on essentially a fixed income wishing you guys the best Jill good luck with the conversation this is the Ramsey Show

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Ali joins us up next in Grand Rapids. How can we help today, Ali? Hi there, you guys. Thanks so much for taking my call. Sure. So my question today is my husband works full-time 40 hours a week. I work part-time about 16 hours a week because I really value staying home as much as I can with our three babies. I have a six-year-old, four-year-old, and almost one-year-old.

My question today is I have much higher earning potential, but I really struggle with the idea of working full time and not being more home with my kids. We do have some debt that we'd like to pay off. So my husband and I are more strongly considering the switch. But just wondering your thoughts. How much debt?

$32,000. It's only student loans. And of course they're for my student loans that I used to get to where I am today. What's your part-time job? I work part-time as a nurse practitioner. Okay. So that's the earning potential. You could flip a switch tomorrow, huh? I could just switch, be a full-time nurse practitioner and make six figures. So...

Often whenever a couple calls or somebody in a partnership calls and says, we are trying to decide between this or this, I always want to challenge you to throw three or four ideas on the table just to see because it ends up, it's easy to get boxed in and you end up boxing yourself in a situation. And that usually leads to some frustration and resentment. Yeah.

Because he's sitting there going to work 40 hours a week saying, dude, we could be out of this debt if she would just get off her butt. And, and you would be at work going, I can't believe my stupid husband doesn't make any money. And because you're, because it's an either or instead of saying something like, Hey, what would happen if you flipped a switch for six months and just burned a hole through everything, paid all this stuff off and cleared everything and then flip the switch back off?

Sure. Okay. You know what I'm saying? It's just option three or option four is fill in the blank or option five is fill in the blank. Yeah. Are you guys open to, let's explore all the options here. Would you guys be open to both working full time and having the kids in daycare for a period of time? Yeah.

Yeah, I guess that's so hard for me because I had this vision, right, for how I wanted to raise my kids. And so it's always hard when it kind of deviates. But we also value having financial freedom. So I guess that's a good point. You know, we could just both work full time. We are trying to homeschool, which, of course, is, you know, my oldest goes to a hybrid program. So he goes two days a week. So then, you know, it does require someone to be home. Yeah.

I would just explore all the options and look at the math of it and go, listen, we could be debt free in four months if we did this daycare with two full time or dad stays home full time. And now you go full time and that changes the equation to less income, but you still get to accomplish your vision. So there's a lot of compromises here that can still accomplish your family's vision. And remember, none of this is forever. Yeah, I always the thing I see couples be really successful at is I always like to think in terms of grad school.

Everything is for a season. And if you have a deadline, like we want to have no debt and $50,000 in the bank.

What must be true for us to get that? And then we will all exhale and then figure out, you know what? Them being in childcare or them being in a local public school wasn't as bad as we thought. We quit being on YouTube so much because we were working and it turned out it wasn't that bad. Or we hate every single second of this. And the moment we cross that $50,000 thing, your husband quits his job or whatever the thing is. But if you do it aimlessly, it's real easy to be like, oh, this is the rest of my life.

And then you end up burned out. But having some like a very clear, let's do a sprint. I'm going to flip this switch. I'm going to work Saturdays and Sundays, which means you're not golfing either, honey. And you're staying at home. And we're going to hammer this thing for months. We owe nobody anything. We are free. And then we will reassess.

Sure. Okay. No, that makes sense. Do you find that generally it's pretty easy to flip the switch for folks? Not for professional women, no. It's a nightmare. Okay. You will feel like if you are searching for this to quote unquote feel right, it is a nightmare. And there's billions and billions of dollar industries that are designed to prey on that insecurity. Right.

Right. And you're going to get judgment either way. You will get judged by everybody. I can't believe you're working full time and not home with your kids. I can't believe you're an NP and you're not working full time and you're home with the kids. Either way, you're going to get it from the people you love the most probably. I can't believe your husband's staying at home. I can't believe you just dropped those kids off in daycare. I can't believe all those women went before you to pave the way and you can't win, which means the only way is just don't play that game.

Right. And you and your husband decide. Yeah. What's best for our family. And you may have to grieve some of those pictures temporarily. I wanted it to look like this. It doesn't. Or right this second, it doesn't. But next year it will. Here's what it's kind of like. This is a trite example. And I'm going to get some hate on the Internet. And that's fine. It's like finding going like on a weekend trip to New York City and finding an amazing coat. And it's June.

Like I can't put this on for six months, but it's still a great coat. So it may be that I can't homeschool my kids and work part time and teach the science class in the homeschool cohort because I've got a graduate degree. And so I can't do that until next year.

But it doesn't mean it's not a great dream. It's not a great coat. Or I don't want to say out loud, I really wanted to homeschool all my kids and stay at home. But dude, I miss the adrenaline rush of being in the hospital. I miss it so much. And people tell me that means I don't love my kids very much. And that's not true.

And I would tell you, your kids will benefit from a mom who feels whole and fulfilled and healthy and well than an exhausted mom who hates the life that she has imagined for herself that she's trying to grind her claws through, right? Mm-hmm. What is your current household income? Currently, we bring home about $80,000. And based on that, how much longer will it take to pay off this $32,000 of debt?

Well, we're kind of grinding it out right now. And based on our being more aggressive, we'll be able to get all of our debts, well, probably in the next three to five years, depending on some things, but about three to five years. Okay. I can tell you right now that plan sucks in my book. Yeah. You're going to hate your life. Five years of paying off debt when you two are very capable.

I think we can do better. So I would look at what is the two-year version of this look like? No, what's the one-year version? 18-month. If you can go full-time NP and clean this up in less than a year, think about it. You just gained four years of your life back of this debt payoff sacrifice. I'd rather see you sacrifice for a year versus five. And I'm going to make – can I say something awful?

Sure. Because I know you're now officially a part of the industrial mom guilt complex where everyone's just telling you things and it's just it's like a walking around with a wheelbarrow full of guilt. But what George just said is powerful. But that also means your kids get four more years with non-anxious, emotionally regulated parents.

Sure. That somebody else is not telling y'all what y'all are going to do with your family because of choices y'all made 15 years ago, 10 years ago to go to this college or buy this car or whatever. It's an opportunity to give your kids regulated parents, which is in this current world is, dude, that's the currency, I think.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. So good. So feel guilty about that. I do. I do have concerns that I would be more anxious in a full time role, like because of the stress of what it is. You only have hard choices about that. You only have hard choices, right? Every choice you make is a hard one. So make the hard choice. It's going to get you where you want to be as fast as possible. Sure. Yeah.

If every day you're driving to work and you're having to reapply your mascara because you hate being away from your kids, you will never borrow money again. That's very true. We'll grind it out. There's a price to pay for. We made these decisions back in the day or I made these or he did or whatever. We're having to pay for them right now at the expense of our dream. We're going to get this thing done as fast as possible. I want you all to come up with a nine-month plan because I think...

Y'all can do that. I like the aggression, John. That's about $3,500 a month. We can find that margin. This thing's over before we know it, Don. I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I've taken are from situations that are completely different

Yeah. And what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible. People that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. We actually took a question of a lady and she had three kids pregnant and husband didn't have life insurance. And I'm like, I can't even imagine. Or even if it was opposite, right? If a mom passed away suddenly.

There's a dad with kids and trying to figure out how am I going to afford childcare? How do I outsource some stuff that maybe she was doing? And it just takes the grief and the sadness of something like a sudden death and

to a whole new level. Like when you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills in the middle of next week? Yeah. In the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. And so life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Xander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance and we keep re-upping it because I'm like, I just want it there. Like there's something about that safety of knowing that,

that you have money if something suddenly happens. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You've got to say it out loud, and you've got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of a stinking pizza. It really is. So that is one thing to do to say I love you to your family. So we've used Zander for all of our family's needs for insurance for many years, including, of course, term life insurance. To get a free quote, go to 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282. Or go to Zander.com.

Live from the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm here with the host of The Dr. John Deloney Show, Dr. John Deloney, my co-host, is with me. The number to call is 888-825-5225. And Lori joins us in Seattle, Washington, up next. What's going on, Lori? Hi.

Oh, long story short, 72 years old, was married and divorced now for several years. We had a million five in the account. Now I'm living on Social Security.

Whoa. What happened? Let's make this story a little longer. Yeah, what happened? Yeah, long story short, he filed for divorce before me. There was domestic violence involved. Anyway, he filed. I went to get money from my attorney, and I found out the bank accounts, all of them had like $1,000 or $2,000 in them.

What did he do with the money? I don't think the courts look kindly at people just sweeping the accounts in the middle of a divorce. Well, we'll never know, because when he filed first, everything was frozen, and it looked like we had no money. I had to borrow money from friends and my church to get an attorney. Where is he? He's still living in the house.

I assume with all the money. Probably. What did the judge say or the attorneys? The attorneys, he hired a group of attorneys. I had one probably stinky attorney, basically. The judge asked where the money was. He said he must have gambled it away.

Or lost it in the stock market. Lori, that doesn't make sense. I've been around the legal profession a long time. That's a wild thing for him to say, and the judge would be like, all right, well, cool. Yeah, nothing was said. The only thing the judge found when she went through his things, and the only saving grace for me, was he had a life insurance policy that he had taken out during our marriage for $200,000.

so i got half of that what about your home did they have to buy you out of your house no it was his home before we were married so being we were married less than 10 years it was his whole soul on separate property okay so let's let's do it let's do this let's stop talking about him what's your situation right now because he's gone he y'all are divorced he's over judge he's gone um i am now living in a mobile home

I've got about $8,000, between $8,000 and $10,000 in savings right now. My monthly cost for living and rent and everything is approximately, hold on here, is, let me see, about $13,500.

That I have to pay every month. Wait, like $13,000? No, $1,345. Okay, you scared me. All right, that makes me feel a lot better. And how much debt do you have? I have about $8,500 in credit cards, which I've never had before. What else? That's it. Everything else is paid for. So you could pay off the credit cards today and have a little bit of money left over for a little starter emergency fund and begin to rebuild. Right.

How can I do that? I mean, if I pay everything that I have in cash, I'll have nothing. You told me you have $10,000 in savings. Well, approximately then. That's before I pay my bills. After bills get paid, I go down to that. Well, savings is different from checking. So have enough in checking to cover your next month. No, there's checking. No, I have that in checking. I have nothing in savings right now, actually. Okay. Nothing in savings. So what's your next paycheck, and how much will that be?

I don't work. I just... Are you a Social Security? Yeah, it's $2,100 a month. Okay. So $2,100, your Social Security covers all of your bills, at least. Yes. With a little bit left over. $600 left. Yeah, $600 left for... So here's what I'm advocating for you to do. Pay off your credit cards today. Your next Social Security check will cover your bills. And then with that extra $600, throw that into a savings account every single month and don't touch it.

And cut up the credit cards and stick to using a debit card and cash. And that way you'll never be able to go into debt again, even if you wanted to. I know, but things like being in the mobile home, I had to... There was a major leak. The toilets broke. I had to get new toilets. Did you fix all that? The furnace went out. The furnace, as of now, yes. And there's more work to be done on this place. It's just...

The whole underbelly needs to be set. Well, the goal is to get out of this mobile home situation. This is not a good situation. You're not living with dignity. You're not living a quality life. Do you have any kids or family or anything? I have no family. I have family, but they don't have anything to do with me, no. Why not? I'm guessing it's because I gave my life to the Lord, and I'm not on their political spectrum.

And that's been for the last 15 years. So it's nothing new. So you have no friends. So 15 years ago, you became a Christian and don't vote the same way they did, and they won't speak to you, and they're going to let their mom die in a squalor? Absolutely not. I haven't heard. Nope. I haven't heard a word from them. So I don't even know if they're still alive. Have they heard a word from you? Yes. I've left messages. Okay. What happened to this life insurance policy?

It got split. He got $100,000. I got $100,000. And then I had to pay him because I bought a car during our marriage. I paid cash for it. I had to pay him $30,000 for that car. What's the car worth now? Oh, maybe $20,000. Maybe. I would sell that car tomorrow.

Yeah, but it's paid for. I know you're broke, honey. If you sold it for $20,000 and got a $10,000 car or a $12,000 car, you could clear your credit card debt without even touching your money right now. Lori, this is me and George. And you make $24,000 a year. You don't need to be driving a $20,000 car. We're just trying to love you. You are scary, scary on the edge broke. Oh, I know, but I'm saying I don't owe anything on the car. It's been well-maintained. I know. It's by a car.

But here's what that means. That means if you sold it and bought a used Camry, that's not nice, but will get you to where you need to go for the next 20 years of your life. Then you can do all the repairs. You can pay off all of your debts and you could have five or $6,000 in a savings account. And if you value the car that's being well-maintained in your gravel driveway in front of your falling apart trailer more than that sort of piece, we can't help you.

Well, I realize that, too, but where am I going to move to? Because rents, as you know, are like where I am. They're like $2,100 for a one-bedroom apartment or studio. You might need to get a roommate or two. Yeah. I mean, none of the options you have are good.

But you're like in a house that's on fire and we're telling you to get out and you're like, yeah, but I don't have to pay the heating bill. It's great. And we're like, no, no, no. We have bigger problems to fry. And so I know all of this is uncomfortable. I know that solving one creates another problem over here, but there's better things to solve on the other side. And right now we're hitting you with a lot of solutions that aren't amazing. I understand that, but they're better than what you got. And so this is an unfortunate reality.

Can I get out of Bank of America? I'm finding their fees are just eating everything up. They ate everything in my savings account that I had in there. I don't even know how that works. I would have left them for a thousand other reasons. I would switch to a local regional bank or credit union today. You can check out Fairwinds. They're a trusted partner of ours here on The Ramsey Show, and they will treat you right without all the junk fees. Wish you the best, Lori.

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Amanda's up next in Cincinnati, Ohio. What's going on, Amanda? How can we help today? Hi. I'm just calling to see... I got myself in a little predicament here with my boyfriend, who I love. He's amazing. I guess it's just I listen to you guys a lot, and as far as, like,

you know, when you're not married, nothing is mine that he, um, so my question is he is buying a body shop and,

where he wants me to be the receptionist, work 40 hours a week. He currently takes care of all the household bills, but I still myself have, you know, a little over $2,000, like groceries, insurance, phone. He wants me to be the receptionist, but I could also go get a different job somewhere and make probably double the amount of money and work less hours.

Sounds like he can't afford to hire you. I kind of... It sounds like his problem, not yours. He's helped me out so much, like, financially, and I feel like I kind of owe it to him. But then at the same time, I'm thinking, like, looking at my future, like, if I go do this for another year, I can't start saving for my retirement. It's just not enough, you know? How old are you, Amanda? I'm 36. 36. How long have you all been living together? I just moved in in May. Okay. Okay.

So let's play this out. You say no to this job offer because you're overqualified, whatever. He's going to say, well, then get out of my house and I'm not paying your bills anymore. Is that what happens next? Or is it just a guilt trip? I was like, after everything I've done for you, Amanda, are you serious? Yes. Yeah. He's not going to kick me out of here. I just feel really bad. Like, I just don't know if it's a good idea as far as our relationship goes to say, no, I don't want to do this.

My wife won't read drafts of my books and vice versa. You know why? Because we love each other and we want to stay married. Right. Like the, the idea that you, I'm going to be honest with you. It sounds like the dynamic of your relationship is very one-sided. It sounds almost paternal. Like you're his kid. Yeah. Does he think he's doing you a favor by offering you a job? Are you working right now?

See, that's the issue, too. I haven't really worked a lot in the past year. My mom passed away and I went through a lot. And I'm finally in a position now where I can get back and start working again. But what makes you think you're just going to go find a job tomorrow making double what he's offering? He's not offering you anything, is he? I'm sorry, what'd you say? He's not offering you anything, is he? He's telling you you're just going to be the receptionist.

He, he's offering me, you know, we haven't went into depth, but he said reception receptionists make about, you know, 15 to $20 an hour. Yeah. But he's going to take that off the quote unquote bills that y'all have at your house.

Yeah, yeah. And you know that and you're gonna have no insurance. You're gonna have no protection and you're gonna end up paying for his business to take off with your sweat equity. You're gonna have nothing and you're not married. You're playing house to a guy that uses help as a way to control you. And you just you just go along for the ride. And you're complicit in this too, right?

Yeah, I just I guess I feel really bad because like I said, like he's helped me out so much financially, paid my rent for me a couple of times when I wasn't working. And I don't know, I feel obligated to do it, but I guess it's just to see what you guys thought. Here's the deal. If I was hiring my wife as an employee of a business I was starting, I would make sure we had written something down.

Yeah. So that she would know a when the job was done, how much that job was paying her because I'm going to have to write her a 1099 or W2 anyway as an employee. And she would need to be able to say because I treat my wife with dignity and respect and she's an autonomous person and vice versa. She treats me the same way. If she ever wanted to not work there anymore, I would want us to have a clean separation. Yeah.

Correct. And so I would not go to work for anybody in any situation without some sort of clear job description and or a contract. It wouldn't be a right to have a contract in your situation, but like to have a clear job description with a pay amount. And I can almost guarantee you, you're not going to get that. It's going to be like, no, just come. You answer the phones. We'll take care of it. And you're going to look at him in three years and he's going to find somebody else to date and you're going to be out on your own with nothing.

That's what I'm so worried about. Like, I, you know, like, I'm not getting any younger. I really need to find something that pays more than $15 to $20 an hour. What were you doing before? I'm a bartender. Okay. What were you making? I was making about $4,000 a month. Okay. So about $50,000 a year versus $15 to $20 an hour is closer to $40,000 a year?

35? Yeah. Well, and then I was also working only about 28 hours a week, and this would be a 40-hour work week. How much do you have saved in your savings account right now? Well, I have in my savings account, I have about $4,000, and then I also have about $50,000 in an inherited BDA. Okay. Do you have any money in retirement in a Roth IRA or something? No. I do have to take the money out within 10 years from the inherited BDA. Okay.

I need you to hear me say this because I care about you, okay? You're 36 years old. Do you have any kids? I have three. Okay. They live with you right now and him? Yes. Okay. You have to hit the gas. Okay. He can't float your bills anymore. You got to work two jobs, three jobs for a season because there is a gap. You're behind, if you will.

Very, yes. The only way you're going to get that is not trying to find a job that will make you more so you can work less. You're going to have to maybe take this job and after you drop your kids off to school in the morning, go drive Uber for a bit. And then after you get home, because it's only paying you 20 bucks an hour, go do another job in the evening for a couple of years. You're going to have to just hit the gas because you got some catch up to do.

Right. Yes. I mean, I do get $2,800 a month for my mom's pension, but unfortunately I've been having to use that and it's making me sick using that. You told us that that guy's paying all your bills. He is paying most of the bills. I still have about $2,000 worth of bills myself. What about the extra $800?

I'm sorry, what? If the pension's $2,800 and your expenses are $2,000 and he's paying the rest of the bills, where's the extra $800 going every month?

Um, I've had a lot of things to pay for. Um, I've spent about seven grand on my teeth. Um, I had to get a will that was 1800. I got my plot. That was 1600. I, um, what else? Oh, I had a trip to Spain, but the Spain trip has been going on. I've said that was paid off, but then we had expenses over in Spain and,

Amanda, America's losing empathy by the second right now. By the second. I know. I know. I know. People who are unemployed, broke, three kids, don't go to Spain for fun. Even if it's paid off. Yes. Do you have any debt? They don't buy a hole in the ground. I have no debt. Okay. There's the saving grace is you don't have any debt. You have $4,000 in savings. And now we have to build a life of our own. I know you've hitched to his wagon in a way. I'm...

I'm not here to get on a soapbox about living together before you're married. But you've put yourself in a precarious situation, and you need to build some independence on your own because right now you're so codependent that it's putting you at risk. Let me say it this way, and this is going to be an uncomfortable way to say this. If you are moving back in with your dad—

And your dad said, you have to do X, Y, and Z. If you want to live in my house, you have a curfew. And you're like, I'm 37 years old. And he's like, you have a curfew. I'm gonna live in my house. And on Tuesdays, we just eat bowls of cold beans. You could call me and I could say, Hey, that sounds nuts, but you chose to live in his house. And so you got to play by his rules.

No, you do pay. Well, you're paying a lot of money flying up. And I think you have to have that conversation with the person you've chosen to move into with.

A, are you going to marry me? Are we doing this for the long haul? And B, I don't feel like a participant in this house. I feel like I'm another child of yours and I'm not going to live like that because I'm worth more than that. And that's where we're going to start with that conversation. If you can't have that conversation, then that's the relationship answer that you need. So here's the spark notes. Do not take this job because you feel bad. Take it because you need money and you don't have any other options right now. ♪♪♪

Switching banks can be a hassle, and I totally get that. But when Winston and I opened up our Fairwinds account, we were shocked by how quick and easy it was. It just took a few minutes online. We didn't have to block off an entire afternoon or track down paperwork. And the next day, we got a personal call from a Fairwinds specialist just checking in. I couldn't believe it when I answered my phone. And I was talking to them. I was like, y'all are the nicest people

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When you're tackling debt or building wealth, you can often forget about one important step to reaching those goals. Insurance. Having the right coverage as opposed to too little or too much can impact how long it takes to get there. And skipping or skimping on insurance, it might seem like you're saving, but when life happens, it's easy to fall back into debt without a safety net. It puts you at risk in a big way. So the right insurance acts as a shield around you, your loved ones, your wallet, and your

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Phoebe is in Jacksonville, Florida, up next. Phoebe, welcome to the show. Hi. So, well, long story short, my husband is in the military, so he is on a fixed income, and I work two jobs. We do live on base housing, and so we live rent-free, no utilities or anything. But he took a major pay cut because of that, because that's kind of a catch to it.

And so we're struggling with this debt that's been ongoing, and it feels like it's just getting heavier and heavier. My family believes I should stop working two jobs and bring myself out and just take the free college he offered me because my husband is sweet and gave me his GI Bill so I can

pursue my college and just work one job and deal with the debt later. I believe I should continue to grind out with the two jobs and get our debt gone because I know I can do it. I just kind of don't know what to do. I'm not sure. I just wanted your guys' opinion. Wow. How much debt do you guys have?

So I have roughly about $30,000 including my car, and his is just two big ones, so $20,000 on a credit card and $20,000 on a car. Okay, does he need the car if he's on base? Could that be sold?

It could be sold. I think he would be a little bit sad to sell it. And also it was for a long-term kind of thing for future reference and trips that we hope to do later down the road. Y'all are awesome. He's committed to this car emotionally. He put a ring on it and said, I'm going to marry this car. We wanted the truck for a reason, you know, because we want to do vacations and Moab and, you know, all of these things. But it's more of a sound of love. Can I be honest, Phoebe? Yeah.

If I told my wife, hey, you can work three jobs if you want. I'm keeping this car. Versus, hey, if we sell this car, we could knock out like a third of our debt today.

That would excite me and give you the freedom and runway to go to college if you wanted to. And if you sold yours and just bought like a Corolla that everyone would be like, why are you driving that? And you'd be like, because I'm free. Yeah, how about skin again? That would knock out halfway. We spit shake and say we're both selling. Do what? My car is almost paid off. I got 10 grand. Awesome. What's it worth?

Uh, probably like four. Last time I had a Ford Fusion, it didn't value out that well, actually. So it didn't value out, and so you were like, you know what, I'm going to buy another one? Because I really like the car. You're incredible. America, I'd like you to meet itself. It's called America. I like these things, and they're fun, but we can't afford them. You're like, I know, but we want to go to the desert and stuff and whatever. Yeah.

That's why I don't believe in quitting my two jobs. What are you making total from these two jobs? No, stop falling in love with depreciating assets. $50,000 in total. Okay, you make $50,000. What does he make? He makes about $4,500 net income a month. And you make $50,000 net income per year? Yeah. So you all make $100,000 together, you have no bills, and you all can't make it?

The debt has kind of put a weight on us, plus with the economy and everything. No, you make $100,000. You'll have no bills. You guys are bringing in, this is my estimation, over $8,600 a month net take-home pay. But that is with me working two jobs. Doesn't matter. If I take away one job, then I only make about $40,000. Well, let's say you keep, are you working 40 hours total? I work with both jobs about 60 to 70 hours a week. Okay. Okay.

Or sorry. Oh, no. Yeah, that tracks. Okay. And you have a total of, based on my math, $70,000 in consumer debt? Yes. And how much are your actual expenses that you guys have to pay every month, including the minimum debt payments? My expenses roughly come out to, I want to say about...

What do you mean left over? Oh, you guys aren't married. You guys like Venmo each other.

You just said he's got his bills, he pays, I got my bills, I pay, he has this much left over, I have this much left over. Right? I like to pay my bills. I'm very OCD about how I pay my bills and everything. You're just not OCD about being married?

No, we're on our first year. We've been together for six years, but like we're on our first year of marriage. So we're, we're working on the colliding of income and everything, but I kind of like my stuff. Okay. Here's the thing. Here's the truth. Okay. This is just bottom line. Nothing in your life is going to change and that's okay. If that's what you want. The only way

You get away from this debt. You go to school. You have peace in your life. You build an amazing marriage together. You have to begin doing things that make you uncomfortable that you don't want to do. Period. And the irony is for me and George is we can see every day of your life you're doing things you don't want to be doing. Right. But you can't see it.

Because I think the end goal is going to be worth it. And I'm scared to take that leap and go to college because what if in a couple of years I do all the college and go to find a job and it ends up not paying me much? I guess I'm overthinking and I just want certainty. And with paying off my debts, I know that's something I can do. I can put a track on that. I know, I know. But listen, listen. I'm falling into it. You're sitting on a solution now.

And you won't use it. Because here's the thing. Just like my father. It's cool, man. I accept that. He must have been a really handsome, quasi handsome, smart guy. But like, if y'all sold your cars and you worked really hard for six months and y'all did not go out to eat a single time, you would be debt free.

I know. You see what I'm saying? It's so, I can't tell you, and I'm getting kind of worked up and I apologize. It's not at you. It's just that the whole culture we live in. Cause it's right there. It's literally right here. And the number we just, George and I in a previous hour, talk to a woman on a fixed income who's 72, whose family has abandoned her.

And you're sitting on six figures, but y'all don't want to like not buy another crappy car that just gets older and dies in your driveway and take advantage of this glitch in the matrix where you have no bills, none.

And you're talking about not even suffering, just having kind of a bummer of a six months where y'all are just going to have to make out more and go fishing more and go walking around more. Like that's the penalty you will pay to not owe anybody anything come Christmas.

In January, you can quit everything and go to college for free. And as a taxpayer, I am all about paying for veterans and their dependents to go to college. I think that's an amazing use of my tax dollars. I love that. And I want you to do that.

But good God almighty, dude, go debt-free. Basically stop dawdling around. Yes. I think this college dream is a distraction from having to deal with the reality. It's a Xanax. And you're hoping life's going to be better. I basically merged myself. Yes. I got caught up in the whole, whoa, we have to go enjoy life, so let's not worry too much about the debt. And it just kept going in that cycle. But listen, enjoy it like crazy. Yeah.

Enjoy it like crazy. Just start enjoying it in six months when you don't owe anybody anything. And that, my sister, is the true definition of freedom. Y'all aren't free. Y'all are owned by car companies, by the base housing, by all these other entities. Just say, as for me and my house, we choose freedom. It's the 4th of July, for God's sakes. Choose freedom. It breaks my heart because we love military folks. They're fighting for freedom, and yet they're living in a financial bondage. That's not okay. We got to do better.

This is The Ramsey Show.

Today's question of the day is brought to you by YRefi. You didn't plan to default on your private student loan, but now you could have a way out. YRefi helps you explore refinancing options with a low fixed rate and a payment plan based on your ability to pay. So take the next step at YRefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. Today's question comes from Amanda in Colorado.

Amanda writes,

Wow. We could have deleted the entire question and just left the last sentence. How do I not resent him for not asking me to marry him after supporting him for almost four years? Here's the deal, Amanda. I believe that you resent you. He has no reason other than integrity, which he clearly doesn't have,

Why would he marry you? You pay all of his bills. He already lives in your house. You do everything for him. You fold his laundry. You do everything. So you resent him because you signed up to be his mom kind of accidentally, but also intentionally. Fully intentionally. And when he said, I'm just going to pay you a thousand bucks and that's more than fair. I love that for which he claims. This feels like an episode of Judge Judy. Yeah.

He claims it. Why did you not decide ahead of time versus going like, hey, let's take the highest bidder. All right, a thousand bucks, that'll do. You tell him. Now, first of all, this is just one of a thousand reasons I would never suggest for people dating to move in together because of issues like this. But you didn't make the guardrails clear. You didn't say, hey, it's going to be $1,500 rent if you're going to live with me. And you're going to pay utilities, 50-50. We're going to pay whatever, 50-50. You didn't make that clear. Now you're resentful.

Because you thought, hey, if I just let him move in and if I just take care of stuff, he's going to fall further in love with me and then he'll ask me to marry him. And that's not how he chose to live his life. He was like, man, I got a sweet setup. I can kind of do whatever I want and get away with whatever I want whenever I want. And so, cool, dude.

And so, yeah, you've, I mean. What incentive does he have at this point? Besides character, and he doesn't have that. But you knew that when he said, I'm not helping here. I'm just going to give you a thousand bucks a month. And you just shut up. And you were like, okay, cool, cool, cool. I'll take that. And maybe I'll prove to you. I don't know, dude. It's a mess. But Amanda, I think the person you're most upset with is the person you see in the mirror.

You're smarter than this. You're worth way more than this. And truthfully, you think you're better than him. You mentioned that you make more than him, that he's not paying his fair share. He's not going to pay for upgrades, which why would he pay for upgrades for a home he doesn't own? Right. In your house. You're the landlord. You have to pay for that stuff. That's what you signed up for by asking for rent money. Yeah.

So both parties are at fault here. If I was Judge Judy, I'd kick you both out of my courtroom. I'd have the bailiff escort you out at this point in the show. So Amanda, here's the scary question that I'll just pose this to you and anybody else in the situation. You can change no things about what have happened up until now. The only question you can solve is what are you going to do now? Are you going to realize this is a person that I don't want to hitch the rest of my life to? And you're going to have a sunk cost fallacy and say, but I've invested four years...

I'm worth more than this. I'm going to ask you to go. Or you're going to sit down and say, not only is this a financial issue, this is just a, hey, I've asked you to pitch in. And he's like, yeah, I don't really care what you say. Behavior is a language. He's telling you, I don't care what you say. I don't care what your values are. I care what I want. And I'm going to kind of do what I want to do. And you get to ask yourself, do I want to be married to that guy? Or do I want to have a live-in son slash boyfriend like that guy? You get to pick that.

But the only question you can solve is what am I going to do next? And there is no path forward for you that does not come with heartache.

him staying in this arrangement stays the same, your heart's going to ache. You break up with him, your heart's going to ache. You draw a line and he walks away, your heart's going to ache. So I want you to take the path that is going to leave you with the most dignity and the most respect for yourself and for others and is going to get you to eventually where you want, which sounds like a relationship of two people who love and respect each other. And you don't have that right now. It might be a huge blessing that he hasn't proposed because divorce is expensive.

And you guys made it clear you're not compatible. Yeah, I've been doing a ton, a ton of research digging into marriage. Just the question, is it still even worth it? And whatever. So if part of your equation out there is, I bet if I take in...

young man and I quote-unquote support him for four years financially romantically housing and clothing him and feeding him then maybe he'll like me that's not that algorithm won't work just just FYI it's not the way that's not the path to marriage so is what that is do with that with what that what you will Amanda all right let's go to the phones Joshua waits in Phoenix Arizona what's going on Joshua

Good afternoon, George and John. It's a beautiful day in Arizona. How are you guys doing? Love to hear that. Perfect. Hey, I'll be brief. I'll get to my question first and then I can provide some context. So I'm looking for some tools and some expertise. My wife and I are behind on some tax debts and are owing about $9,000 towards that.

Recently, we've gone through the hard thing of downsizing our rental property, moving in with grandparents in order to take care of some debts that we have. So as far as that breaks down, we have about $20,000 in credit cards, Canadian loans, American student loans, as well as this remaining tax debt and the federal portion of that.

it was about $8,500. And then the state is about 500, which isn't an issue. And, uh, this paycheck coming up, I work in sales and I'm expecting a significant amount of money around $12,000 on my paycheck. So trying to figure out how to, how to go about that. Um, my wife and I just recently downloaded the every dollar app and created our every dollar budget, but just like for some expertise and tools around how to settle this tax debt in particular. Well,

Well, the easiest way to sell it is to pay it off. So with that next check, I'd pay off the tax debt. That's going to come first. So all the tax debt is gone. Even though it's not the lowest? Yes. The IRS debt is going to go to the top of any debt snowball list because they can really screw up your life more than any other debt collector. So that's going to go to the top regardless of balance, and that's going to be knocked out with this next paycheck. You're going to have $3,000 left over. I would apply that to your next smallest balance.

Okay. Is there any way to settle that $8,500? Like any expertise or any approach to try to settle that for lower or just write the check, stroke it, and be done? You owe the money. It's the government. They don't play – this is not like a medical bill where we're like, can you – will you take $500?

this is what you owe in taxes. This is what you have to pay. I would not even go about trying to settle it. I would verify the total, make sure that you're only paying what you're actually, you know, that you owe. But if you owe 9,000, I would write the check for the 9,000 and be done with it.

Okay. No, probably not the answer I wanted to hear, but that's the harsh truth, right? Yeah, well, you're going to find now, like you're going to get Facebook ads for like, we'll help you settle your tax debt and just contact us and give us the payments. Don't trust any company to handle this. You contact the IRS yourself and pay the bill and be done with it. No hacks needed. This is money that you owed legally. There's no way around it. And so I would do that and then continue the debt snowball as you would. Smallest to largest balance from there.

I wish you the best. We're all looking for the hacks, John. I wish there was magic shortcuts and buttons. And if I could just contact that company for that debt settlement relief, they said they'd give me freedom. It'll solve my problems. And here's the thing. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. And if it looks like a shortcut, I would run far away. Most of these shortcuts...

I don't know, dude. They're just so predatory and they break my heart because we take so many calls, people who just get ripped off and I hate it for them. Well, they're in a tough spot. Their back's against the wall. They're desperate and they see an ad that says the word freight a minute or debt settlement or debt relief. Yeah. These words are intentional. It's all of these are just math problems and they just don't go away. And it's just it's disillusioning right now. I can find myself getting kind of down just across the country. It's like, no, it's just all go away. It's cool.

And it just won't. And it's going to take hard work and heading right into the middle of that problem. Everybody getting together and doing it together. But it's a mess, man. There is not, there just is not a hack. It was just a path. This is the Ramsey Show.

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From the Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Camel, joined by Ramsey personality Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. We're headed to Santa Fe, New Mexico to talk to Claudia up next. What's going on, Claudia? ♪

Hi, thank you guys for taking my call. Sure. I've been hearing on social media, and I want to know what Dave and you all know about cryptocurrency replacing the U.S. dollar. I know it seems far-fetched, but it just seems like it's huge.

Well, I mean, you heard it from a credible source, social media. Who are we to refute that? I saw a guy on social media the other day. He was swimming in the ocean and he kissed a shark. It was amazing. Right on the face. Definitely not AI. No, not AI at all. We're having fun. But where exactly did you hear this? Like what caused the algorithm to bless you with this fear mongering content? Well, I think it's because you started doing investments. Yeah.

And you know how the algorithm says, oh, okay, so then it starts to say, whatever, lead you to this direction of, well, you can invest here. And we know it's an investment. I don't know anything about how economics works. Or I do know through Prager that the money, the U.S. dollar, really isn't backed by anything. It used to be backed by gold, and now it's a note. Okay, but listen to this. Along that same line, that is correct.

The, the, what backs the dollar is that the whole world has said, we trust that the United States will pay their bills. Right. That's what makes like the debt ceiling thing so complicated. The thing that makes the world spin is the U S the U S will pay their bills. Right. But if you take that away before that, the whole world said, Hey, this yellow rock is worth everything.

Right. There's not that yellow rock does nothing. You can't eat it. You can't plant it. You can't raise it. You can't hug it. It's just a yellow rock that we all said, all right, that's going to be a thing. And so could the whole world, the whole world get together and be like, you know what? We're going to let a bunch of zeros and ones from some kids in San Francisco or Dubai or wherever and across the world somewhere. We're just going to trust them. We'll trust them. Does that sound right? Right.

Well, it's all on trust. That's it. That's it. And as screwy a system as we have and as messy as things are, most of the world's like, dude, I'll put my money on them.

Which is why I think you're hearing such passionate debate right now about the U.S. signing bills that are going to add trillions of more dollars to the debt. There's American citizens that are like, hey, we got a good thing going. It's not perfect and it's a mess, but we got a good thing going and we're going to shoot holes in our own boat because we didn't have the courage to make hard choices. Right, right. And so it's... Let me put it this way. And George, this is how my buddy who's a banker told me this. The day the U.S. dollar...

seeks to be the world's currency that will be such a disruptive force that we can't imagine our lives the day after that. And so he called it a meteorite plan. Like, I have a lot of plans. I have a deep freezer with some meat in it. Like, I'm that guy, right? I got big gardens, whatever. But I don't have a meteorite plan. If we get hit by a meteorite, I'll deal with that then. But me buying a bunch of crypto is not going to be my hedge against the U.S. dollar and pot. It's just not.

And take that for what you will. It's free advice, so it might be worth what you paid for it. In five years, if the U.S. dollar goes away and the crypto bros are worth trillions, you can call and be like, you idiot. And I'll be like, yeah, you're right. I screwed up on that one. But it all comes down to trust, right? And I think that's what Bitcoin is, too. It's all based on trust. I've just been researching it. And basically, it's the same thing. It's just on trust. But let me push back on you.

From my nerd world, research is sitting down and doing science experiments and having it peer reviewed so other people have done experiments, push back on my findings, etc.,

If you're just Googling stuff or YouTubing stuff or chat GPT stuff or looking on Instagram, it's not research. It's learning what you want and it's giving you an increasingly more sensational version of what you're looking for. For one reason, not to give you facts, but to keep you hooked on that device.

And guess what gets clicks and views? It's the dollar is going to crash. Everyone buy crypto. Not the dollar is fine. America is annoying right now and we're fighting ourselves and we are causing ourselves immeasurable damage for no reason. But it's not going away. We're here right now. So I have a follow up question to that research. So that's what we do. That's what we've been trained to do. OK, just go online and search it. So how do you research it?

I mean, there's books, there's people who have done more scholarly work on this. But again, they're going to have a very biased take that says, I'm going to put all my money into crypto and you should too. Can I tell you what I do? This is my personal thing. And this is me working with academics for 20 years, like really some world-class scientists, okay? And even some of my close buddies in the nutrition space, the weightlifting space, the mental health space. I do not ask the question, what do you think?

I don't ask that to George. I don't ask that to my friend Dave Ramsey. I don't ask the question, hey, what do you think about? I simply ask this question. What do you do with? I don't say, hey, what do you think about this thing? Like I ask, what do you do with your kid? What do you do with your money? And what I can tell you is Dave Ramsey, the wealthiest guy I personally know, owns zero cents in crypto.

My friend George Camel, who I call on the weekends and say, hey, man, I need to ask a question about this mutual fund or whatever. And George owns zero crypto. And he's got two young kids like me. And so you're calling two guys who own zero dollars in crypto. I also don't have any gold. I don't buy things that are a store of value, quote unquote, or a currency. All I do is invest into the U.S. stock market, crypto.

and a little bit of international, like we've been teaching for years. And that's all you need. Anything more complicated than that is just a trap to try to get you into someone else's maze. My friend, Lane Norton, Dr. Norton says, most people step over $100 bills to pick up nickels when it comes to health and weight loss and nutrition.

Right, right, right. The shortcut. Me too. Me too.

It's just stepping over the next annoying, boring, next right step for some sensational thing. And so I would go sit with a smart Western pro and I'll tell you what I asked mine. He started talking about, hey, you can ask us, I'm just gonna stop right there. Whatever you did for your family, when it threw like these four, I want that for mine. And he smiled at me and he goes, all right, cool. Because that's what's gonna tell me what you believe is your actions, right? Yeah.

Same questions I asked George. How much are you investing every month right now, Claudia? Well, it's interesting because I don't think we're... None. Ah, there it is. Get off the apps. You're making yourself nuts for no reason. Just get off.

Find some puppy videos. Get two dogs and wipe their butts just like George does. Thank you. Look how happy he is. That's a good life. It's a life well spent. So here's the key. Replacing the U.S. dollar with crypto would require a complete overhaul of the global financial system. We can't agree on anything across the world right now, let alone that. Nothing. No things. Too much volatility with crypto. It's unregulated. It's a private digital currency. It's decentralized. There's too many problems with it still. While it has cool technology and features...

I'm not gonna hang my hat that the dollar's gonna crash anytime soon unless I wanted some YouTube clicks.

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Amy's in Tampa, Florida up next. Amy, welcome to the show. Did I get that right or is it Ami? Yes, Amy. Yes. First try. Okay. How's it going? Good. How are you? Great. What's your question today?

So I financed a used car and I got an extended warranty with it and now recently the engine blew up. And so basically I have no car and I'm stuck with this, like it's a $30,000 loan still with this car. Oh my goodness. You said you got the extended warranty. Does it not cover exploding engines? No.

No, I guess not. No. They're trying, they're kind of like trying to get out of it, I guess, basically. They want me to do like, they want me to pay for the mechanic. So it's not a mechanic shop right now and they want me to pay for the tear down for it. Who does? To figure out like exactly what's wrong. The warranty company. The warranty company wants you to pay for them to tear apart the car to figure out what went wrong? Well, no, the mechanic wants me to pay first. Okay.

And then maybe they'll reimburse you? Exactly, yeah. And then maybe the warranty will cover it. Maybe they won't. Yikes. Okay, what was the car worth before this issue?

Probably about $18,000 and then I bought the extended warranties and then out the door it came to $30,000. What? Whoa. What? Yeah, so now it's only worth $13,000. How is it worth $18,000? You bought it for $18,000. You bought $12,000 worth of extended warranties? Well, it was $6,000 and then I guess some fees got added. I don't know how it got up to $30,000. You bought a $6,000 extended warranty? Yeah.

Yeah. And they just added $6,000 more in fees? I'm confused. I'm not convinced that you're—I feel like you're smarter than this. Yeah, it was a really dumb thing. I don't know how that's how it happened. If I bought a $6,000 warranty, they're paying for everything. They're paying for my toothpaste that morning that I used to brush my teeth. They're paying for everything.

What could possibly be the holdup? Because you must have bought the Cadillac, Lexus, atomic, diamond, platinum warranty. Because think about that. You bought a warranty that's one-third the value of your car. Yeah. So how are they protesting any sort of service?

I don't know. And then I've messaged the warranty company. So I was at a shop before this shop prior because I had issues with the overheating. So they replaced the water pump on it. And then two days later, I was driving down the road and it started overheating again. And then it just wouldn't turn on. So I towed it back to that shop and they said, oh, it's nothing that we did. How long ago did you buy this car? In February. Okay.

Okay, and where did you buy it from? Like, was it a dealership? It was a place in Tampa. It was a Discovery Auto. It was a dealership. Have you went back to them? Yeah, I did. And they sent me a form that I signed that basically says I bought it as is. Yeah, but if they sold you the warranty, there's got to be some...

Here's the thing. Also, I'm not messaging. They didn't disclose that there was anything wrong with the car at all. No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you bought that warranty through that dealer, then there may be some liability on their part that they're pushing a bad product on you. Yeah. And here's the second thing. I'm not messaging anybody. I'm calling everyone. I'm going to find a buddy who's a lawyer that's going to write me a letter. I'm calling everybody I know.

I'm not messaging anything. This is too big of a deal. It would be my part-time job. Whenever I'm not working my full-time job, I'm working on this and fighting it. I'm going through the fine print. I'm working with an attorney. I'm showing up in person every day until they know me by name. Okay. Do you own a house? No. Okay. I'm making up a number here, but if you have a $500,000 house, depending on where you live, obviously, your homeowner's insurance is going to be $5,000 or $10,000 a year.

You paid $6,000 for a warranty against an $18,000 car. At that ratio, that would be like buying a warranty for a half a million dollar house that costs $175,000. So what you paid is so out of whack proportionally. And you should be able to get your money back for the warranty at least.

Yeah, that's what my next step was going to be. I just wanted to figure out if I should still continue to try to get it covered by warranty. Yes. But I have to pay up front for the whole teardown of the engine and everything. That is insane. I've never heard where you have to pay, and then maybe the warranty company will reimburse you later. And Amy, I'm confused by your lack of just going to war over this.

I don't have the money. I don't know anything to do that. To get a ruler out and go line by line down this warranty that you have. Oh, I've been I've been emailing the warranty company. I've been going through it and everything like that. And I've reached out to like the Better Business Bureau and all that. OK, do you have any money right now?

No, not really. What do you make? I have a few hundred. I make hourly or salary? Salary. Salary, I make about $49,000 a year. Okay. And what other debts do you have outside of this $30,000 car loan? I have a $8,000 personal loan, a $700 loan, and then I have a couple of credit cards for $200, and then three for $500, and then one for $300. Okay.

And then I have another car loan for $13,000. What? What happened to that car? That car I gave to my mom. But you're still making the payments on it? Yeah. Why is she not paying the payments? She doesn't have a job right now. Okay, so this runs in the family. Okay. Can you sell that car immediately? The other car? What's it worth, the one your mom's driving? It's not worth what I owe on it. Have you rolled a lot of negative equity into these? No.

That car, no. But that car I bought for, I think, more than it was worth as well. And it's only 2% interest on that car. Well, at least there's the good news. We have 2% interest. Oh, Amy, we need to change everything. I'm cringing. You're getting hosed at every single dealership you go to. Yeah. What's the interest rate on the $30,000 loan? 7%. And did you roll negative equity into that one? That one, no, I didn't.

That was just... Here's the deal. You're underwater on this car, obviously. And right now, it's to the tune of $30,000 because I don't know if this car is worth anything. And so your best bet is to try to get it fixed up so that you can sell it. Because your other option is trading it in or selling it for parts at this point if it's kaput. Right.

And that's going to put you in a giant hole to where you're upside down by, you know, $28,000 if you get rid of it for $2,000. And so getting the warranty refunded, if they're not going to come through and fix anything, is one at least step. But you're going to need the difference in a personal loan in order just to get out of this payment. And then you still need a car to drive. Right. In which case, I would rather take your other car back that you owe $13,000 on because at least you're less in debt than that and mom needs to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

But you're going to have to make a lot of hard choices and fight really hard probably for the next few months to battle this thing out. And in the meantime, how are you – what transportation do you have? Right now we have a car that I use from work. Who's we? That we use for customers. I've been borrowing it from my – From your employer? So we have like a crew car, yeah, that customers will use.

Are there any folks over there who know cars pretty well, who can help you navigate this mechanic situation?

I'm sure they know mostly about planes, so. I mean, I feel like they're cut from the same cloth. They've got to know what an engine looks like to be dealing with this. So I would be begging folks from work to say, hey, can you help me with this? I'm struggling. I want to make sure I don't get hosed once again. But the key is you've got to come up with a difference just to get rid of the car loan. And to do that, you're probably going to need to fix it up. And that's going to mean saving up and...

And when you can, in covering the difference in cash or with a personal loan, I don't know of another way out of this right now. Unless you just sell mom's car and try to cover it, but you're way underwater on that too. We're out of options here.

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Carlina is up next in Burlington, Vermont. What's going on, Carlina?

Hi, thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to say first that I love you, Dr. Delaney. You're just such a blessing for so many people. And yeah, I retweet that statement. Thank you. I wish you would tell my friend George Campbell that because he's mean to me off air, but thank you. I accept. And then my question was, how do I budget for a regular expenses, including things like kids growing up? Um,

We're debt-free, but we seem to be spending every single bit of our money every month. What do you mean budget for kids growing up? That's like a thing they all do.

Yeah, I mean, like, my baby just turned one, and, you know, she's eating more food. My 7-year-old is, like, just eating like a teenager now. My 15-year-old, he ate an entire horse the other day. It's the horse that George told that poor woman to sell one time. My son just ate the whole thing. Like, they'll eat everything.

I just don't know how to budget for things like that. Heating in Vermont is a big part of living here. How long have you lived there? My husband's lived here all his life, but I've lived here eight years. We've been married eight years. So you guys know, and you can go look at your bill for the last year and go, oh, look at that. It spikes in the wintertime.

We pay more for heat in December than we do in July. No way. And so you'll be able to kind of find those trends and then you'll adjust the budget as the month goes on. And so the key, have you done a budget formally yet? Or is this just sort of like, how do I prepare for these expenses? Yeah.

No, I've done budgets before, but like, okay, another one would be the car, the van is just hitting 100,000 miles. And so last time I went to get a service for like oil change, they said, oh, you know, you need to do this maintenance and this other thing. And those are things I didn't budget for.

Okay, so this is going to change your life when it comes to budgeting, and it's called sinking funds. And so for things that are necessary in your life, ongoing, that you know you're going to need to cover at some point, you just set up a sinking fund. So there's going to be a line item in your every dollar budget that says car maintenance and repair. And every single month, you're going to put $100 into that account so that over the course of the year, you will have saved up $1,200. Okay.

So when there's the oil change or the little repair, you're going to have the money sitting there ready to cover it. So that's going to help you cover those longer term expenses that are coming up over the year. Maybe it's an insurance bill that you pay yearly.

Just divide it by 12 and then put that amount in a line item in the budget. I think the key is you're not actually adding any of these line items to the budget, but then you're surprised when they pop up. So for the kids, maybe we need to have a new line item for kids' clothing. If they're moving through clothes really fast as they grow, let's have kids' clothing in the line item in the budget for $50 a month, whatever you guys decide. What would be for a family of six, what's a good food budget?

I wish I could tell you that. It's so dependent on are there dietary needs in the family? Where are you guys shopping currently? I know like we, I love Aldi. That's where I go for the grocery shopping because it keeps the bills low. I have no clue what a family of six should be spending. You can check. They have the government, you know, lists of here's how much, you know, people have spent that are in your shoes. But that's really dependent on you. The key is how do we get it lower than it was last month?

And keeping it in check. So don't make it outrageous. Don't decide, well, I'm going to spend 300 bucks for six people for the month. That's not reasonable. So make it realistic and put a number out there. You can see what you've been spending and then go, hey, we've been out of control here. We've been spending 1500 bucks a month. Let's tighten this down to 1000 bucks a month or 1100 bucks a month to cover us. But I also and maybe you didn't say this and maybe I'm just I'm just tired today.

But I don't want you blaming a one-year-old for their appetite increasing, right? Or their seven-year-old for beginning to eat more and more. That's just what kids do, and it's amazing and awesome. No, no, no. No, no, no, not at all. I'm just overwhelmed with just the food cost and all of these things that seem to have

have to have a line in the budget. And then sometimes it just feels like we don't even have enough money for what is budgeted. Sure. Yeah. Some of that is a frustrating, annoying, like really heartbreaking amount of discipline at a grocery store.

Like I can only buy these things with these coupons, especially nowadays groceries are still so expensive. Like I can only buy this much stuff. Mom, can we, we just can't come on mom. And every parent wants to be able to get their kid that $2 thing. And we literally don't have that margin right this second.

And it's being intentional, as George said. It's planning out expenses before we get there, right? But it's a pain and it's not fun, but it shouldn't be that much of a surprise. And what helps is we do a monthly budget meeting and then we have a little weekly check-in. Hey, what's coming up in the week ahead? Are line items still accurate? Do we need to tweak anything, delete something, add something? And that can make it much more palatable to realize that you're in control and that life isn't just happening to you.

Even if it's something annoying to pay for, we have a miscellaneous line item that just is a little catch-all for the little surprises. You know, $50 a month, that's the catch-all. I wasn't expecting that $6 charge here. Now we have a place for it. And that way you're sort of planning for the unplanned.

George has a line item up for $175 for extra hair care. That's on top of his haircut. I do. Well, here's the thing. I spend more on my dogs than I do my own child at this point. It's out of control. But you know what? It's a blight mark on America that he does that. 100%. Have you guys used every dollar before, Carolina? No.

Oh, yes. And we're eating at our savings. And that was, I guess, my next question was, how do I know at which point we have like an income problem? You have one right now. If you're living off your savings, you have an income problem. If you're debt free and you have no margin and you're living off savings, it's for sure an income problem and an expense problem at the same time.

Because you can always make more, but then you'll just spend more if you don't solve the other side of the equation. So I think you and your husband sit down tonight with every dollar and make it realistic. And go back in the bank statement and go, hey, did we miss anything? What do we need line items for? And then actually meet up once a week, track the transactions, and see if you feel a little more in control and a little less chaotic as the month happens. Okay. Do you have to use every dollar premium before that connects to your bank account? No.

No, we've used the app, the Adobe Premium. Okay. Well, I'm going to gift it to you today to help you guys win on this journey. It's going to connect to your bank. There's a new experience in there that will help you with recommendations. And I think that's the more you use it, the more comfortable you're going to be with all these ups and downs and the kids are eating more. And if they're eating more, up it a little bit each month until you find your baseline, you figure out what works for you guys. What are you guys making a month?

So my husband makes like $4,000 a month take home. Okay. And then we have a renter, but that pretty much pays off our mortgage, most of our mortgage. Okay. And I'm going to stay at home. We homeschool. Okay. So $4,000 a month is what you have coming in, and the renter helps cover some expenses. And what are your monthly expenses as you've been doing this budget? Okay.

Well, our rent, well, not our rent, I guess the leftover mortgage is about $1,000.

Okay. It sounds like you don't know the total expenses, which tells me it's probably been a while since we've really dialed in this budget. So that's your homework. Figure out exactly what your expenses are going to be for the month of July. Today, we're going to talk about the expenses.

It's July. It's the start of July. Let's figure this out and dial this in. It might take 90 days to get used to it, to get all the pieces dialed in, but you're going to feel so much better when it's done and not go into a frenzy every time the kid needs a little more milk. I hope that helps. This is The Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day, Proverbs 9.9. Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still. Teach the righteous and they will add to their learning.

Jimi Hendrix said, knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens. Dan joins us up next in Minneapolis. What's going on, Dan? Hey, gentlemen. How are you doing today? Great. How are you? Great. Say, I have a 19-year-old son who is going to be entering his second year in college here. We've always pushed for living the debt-free lifestyle. He has about $50,000 saved up in his savings account for college expenses. Wow.

Year one, he's already paid his way through. He's going to a South Dakota State University, which is a fairly reasonable school. And with his scholarships that he's been awarded, we're kind of anticipating maybe $10,000 a year out-of-pocket expenses for him. What we're getting at is he actually threw a question at me the other night that I wasn't really...

anticipating and he says dad what about what about this thought he goes what if uh i take out a student loan which i'm not familiar with how all the student loans work and uh whatnot but he says you know i'm not going to get any interest tacked on until the end he says what if i

invest my money in some sort of a Roth account, gain some interest in the next four years. He's on a five-year plan to get his master's degree as a structural engineer. And he says, what if we try to gain some interest on that money and then pay it off as a lump sum when I get out of school? What do you think about that? Oh, boy. Well, I think your debt-free plan is out the window, number one.

And I think we've then trained him to use a word that I think is a cancer amongst young men in society, which is arbitrage. That's what he's doing here. Bro, it's all about arbitrage. If I can make more in the market, why would I pay down my low interest debt? That's the path he's going down and it will then spiral. This will be a gateway drug into –

more risk in his life that he thinks he can manage. And he's assuming that this money is going to grow if he invests it in this period of time in four years, right? And we've had that conversation, you know, and I've shown him some losses with, you know, just the latest stock market decline that we had here.

Yeah, while he's in school, he's going to be checking that investment account going, oh gosh, it was 50, now it's 43. I'm going to pull all my money out of the market. That's what's going to happen. And he can't invest in a Roth account. That would be a retirement account at that point.

Yeah.

I would just pay my way through, graduate debt-free, and not have to worry about what life looks like four years from now. What happens if he doesn't graduate? And he's still on the hook, but doesn't have the degree with the job on the other side. Yeah, there's a lot of things that could twist into that and make it bad for him. Right now, he's doing very good. It's keeping him on track. He knows...

you know annually what about what it's going to cost him he knows how much he needs to work in the summertime along with taking some summer courses he's really going down an excellent path right now but i didn't want to deter it but i wanted to uh i wanted to call in and get another opinion and uh just tell him that he does think a lot of the ramsey program they taught it to him in high school as an elective and uh so he's he's been a believer so can i buy in he just i just needed that other voice to maybe

Well, I think more than me and George, can I tell you a voice that he really needs right now is yours. And there's something powerful about saying, hey, like that's a you asked me a phenomenal question. And I actually had to go get some other wisdom on it because I hadn't thought it all the way through. Well done, dude. And your rising sophomore son's chest will puff out about six inches because he got a great I'm proud of you compliment from his old man.

And a, hey, you stumped your dad, man. That's an excellent, I can tell you're really thinking this stuff through. And I want to tell you a story or two from my personal life where I thought I had it all figured out. And then I didn't understand what I didn't understand. And that's called wisdom. And life came at me. And man, I want to let you know you're an engineer mind. You're a brilliant young man. And life doesn't play out on a spreadsheet. Yeah.

And if you can give him one or two stories from your life that you had it all mapped out and then it went sideways, that's,

In my life, I would have about 10,000 of those stories because I always have a plan and a scheme and it never works out right. Then you'll find a closer relationship with your son. You'll model for your son how to go, wow, I learned something new. I was challenged. And you'll give him a great gift, which is any dad looking at their son saying, I'm proud of you. That's a great question. So you see what I'm saying? Like your voice right now matters a lot.

And I appreciate that, but at the same time, that second opinion also matters. It does. It does. Do you appreciate that? What do you have for advice on anything other than like a high-yield savings account, which we're in now, which is, I think, just below 4% where his money is sitting? That's exactly where I would keep it. That's where mine is. Yeah, that's where I keep my money that's not in checking. During the last break, I just moved some to my high-yield savings account. So, I mean, I don't know.

These rates are still historically high. I'm still shooketh that we are sitting at 3.5%, 4%. He's speaking King James. That's how shaken up he is. When I was saving up for a house, I remember it was 2% in a high-yield savings account, and I was losing my mind. I was like, the banks are losing money on me. How are they giving us 2%?

And so perspective helps. And the other thing that helps them realize is that when you pay in full for that next semester, you're going to show up to class. You're going to pay attention. You're not going to flunk out. And when it's someone else's monopoly money that maybe I pay back later, maybe there's a forgiveness program. Someone dangles when the next election comes up. Or it's this. Here's what's going to happen. Dude, my dad's got a 2020 F-150. He's trying to sell for cheap.

What? He's selling it for cheap, man. And he's going to have $50,000 in an account. And he's going to call you and say, Dad, I can get a truck that's worth 40 grand for like 20 right now. That's how that's going to happen. And I only know this because I worked with college students, even great ones for 20 years, and all of them act like college students.

Even the great ones, right? It's just, yeah, I mean, this is just a pretty amazing moment. And I want to also credit you. My son right now, he's 15. He thinks I'm the dumbest person who's ever lived. So you are right. A second opinion does matter. And I've always said Hank's a genius. Yeah, he's pretty sharp. And he's like, Dad, I don't think you're that good at what you do. But anyway, but like, yeah, getting a second opinion is awesome. But man, telling a personal story and kind of mapping it out, that's awesome. Kudos to your son. There's a piece of this, Dan, and you've...

believed this principle for a while now is that there is it's a better life to just believe in the principle that owing people money is a bad thing regardless of the interest rate regardless of the spread or the arbitrage and so my fear is that he does this and then he gets out of college and goes dude the dealership gave me zero percent apr on a new car why would i not take that leave the money in savings i'm a genius i'm gonna be a tiktok star talking about this stuff

And that is what I think is causing a lot of people to get trapped in the maze of the lending world, which is what they want. They want to lure you in with all the low interest rate and now it's actually smarter. And every financial advisor would tell you, hey, no, leave your money invested. You shouldn't pay cash for things. Just leverage as much as you can. And so I think there's a principle to it where you just decide early on that you're never going to touch debt.

You're going to be unbelievably wealthy and focused instead of losing sleep over the next arbitrage scheme. And so I hope this gets to him. I would encourage him to read my book, Breaking Free from Broke. I'll send it to you if you can get it over to him or if you prefer the audio book, we'll get that over to you. I have a whole chapter about student loans that I think will set him free of this and cause him to go, oh, my gosh, why would I touch debt if I don't have to?

And you guys have done such a great job. It makes no sense to go backwards now. So way to go. Dad of the year right here.

And kid of the year, man. Son of the year. I love young... 19-year-old with 50 grand in savings? Yeah, young men and women that work really hard and ask hard questions. And I love students who are young people who are like, wait a minute, that's all good questions. It's all great. Yeah. His critical thinking skills are working. It's just with a wrong motive underneath it all that I'm worried will add more risk and stress to his life. He's already got a lot going on. A 19-year-old is having an existential crisis every day. Especially an engineering major. Engineering majors don't have many.

It's not like the young poetry skater boy that said see you later boy like you were. The artist, the troubled souls we are. That's right. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show on the books. Thank you to Dr. John Deloney, the whole crew in the booth keeping the show afloat, and you, America. We'll be back before you know it.