GOOD FOLLOW - Lori Lindsey On Team USA’s Gold Medal Chances + Ilona Maher & More.
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Welcome to Good Follow presented by DraftKings. I'm Megan Reyes and alongside me are Logan Hackett and Katie Novotny. Ladies, how are y'all doing today? I'm feeling more in the Olympic spirit than I ever have before. I don't know what it was about this week, but it just came crashing to me and I love it.

I am very, I'm feeling very competitive as well. I got in a fight with the first baseman during a rec game last week. So it was, it felt good. It feels good. I'm back. I'm back. Logan, I think you're probably feeling in the Olympic spirit a little bit more. I know I am because medals have started to be handed out.

And we have to start the show by celebrating the legend that is Alona Mare of Team USA's Women's Rugby Sevens. She is now an Olympic bronze medalist, and she has also taken social media by storm this week. She is now the most followed rugby player, both men or women. I've been a fan of hers for a while now, and I just have to know if you two are just obsessed as I am. Absolutely. Little flex. I mutuals with her on TikTok. Same!

Yes. From like the very first days. And this is like how we got in contact when she was doing fit checks with rugby and they started to go viral. And then she kind of grew into the creator that she is now, but to see her kind of being accepted and watched by everybody, like even outside of the sports community, outside of women's sports, she is the Olympics right now. And I absolutely love to see it. She deserves it all. I also like how during the last,

week or so in the last week since rugby kicked off that her sisters took over her Instagram and gave us that behind the scenes. I'm not sure if that was to have that always on strategy of that alone as social media was constantly going or if it's because I know some athletes like to go completely dark on social media when they're competing. Maybe it's a little bit of both, but I love that her sisters took over and just kept it going for us and gave us their perspective.

I thought it was brilliant. It was a brilliant play. Like the fact that she's so close with her family and their family supports her so much. Also, it was it's a she's a businesswoman. Very deep in her bag, literally. Well, let's stay on rugby and let's talk about her teammate, Nicole Heverlyn, challenging Jason Kelsey to arm wrestling. And people think he cheated. So we're going to check out this video. Are we ready?

Three, two, one. He's grabbing the edge of the table. Red card. I know this is not the same sport, but he's pushing into it.

It's giving all of his body force. And she's just there like, okay, I got this by myself. I don't. It's not the flex you think it is, Jason. I love you. She put up a fair fight. She did. And I do love that him and his wife have become big rugby fans, had the shirt with Alona's face all over it.

He seems to be living his best life in retirement, and I love that he's spending part of it watching women's sports. Now we're going to move on to gymnastics. Suni Lee and Simone Biles both have gold medals at Paris 2024 already with Team USA taking home gold in all-around team final. But they might also leave with skills named after them if they complete them in the competition. So let's check out what Sunis would look like. ♪

The uneven bars are just... Is she going to catch it? No, see... What the heck? I thought that was her dismount at first. I know that they are heavily taped and heavily trained and highly skilled and talented, but I am so afraid of like a wrist snapping. Or my biggest fear, a nail breaking. I thought you were going to say like a concussion. Like that, I'm...

But they scare the crap out of me. I don't know how you like mentally deal

prep your brain to be like, I'm going up to this level in the air and then this level in the air and I'm flipping my body 800 times and I'm keeping my entire body tight. It's all tight and they're flipping through. It's crazy. It's crazy to me. Well, as we all know, Suni has overcome a challenging kidney disease. Didn't think she was going to be able to do gymnastics again. So to see her win gold...

make it to the individual all-around final and then possibly get a skill named after her is really incredible and I'm always going to be in Sunni's corner. Now let's talk about Olympic food. Apparently they're having issues with the food at the Olympics and countries are telling their athletes not to eat at the Olympic Village. So let's look at this video of two USA swimmers making their own meals.

Come with us to get creative with our lunch today because the dining hall is scary. We can't get ourselves to go into the dining hall today. Oh no. Okay, so the bakery is out of baguettes but we got rolls. Okay, so we've got eggs and ham and cheese and rolls on top of our building.

We don't have a bowl to stir the eggs, so we're gonna just... Oh, that's really hot. Come on, little Yoki. Oh my gosh. Oh, they look good, though. All right, we're doing good. Are we, though? Rotted suey up in this. It's okay, it's okay. We're cooking it up. Oh, oh, you got it, you got it. Yes. I know how to cook, I promise. Mm-hmm.

I feel like they need to get extra points to whatever, to any score they get for making their own food. That is crazy. I know we were talking about how cool it is at the Olympic Village, just sort of like college campus with the, you know, the roommates and getting to be around all the other athletes. But the food should also not be.

giving college campus. These are Olympic athletes that don't want to eat. I did see that the chocolate muffins are apparently really good and people are hoarding them. So maybe at least that might be a source of calories, but that's insane. Genuinely insane. I feel like we got treated better at college than them. It's true hunger games out here. I mean, I can't even record this show on an empty stomach because I start to get a little bit hangry, let alone compete in the Olympics. Yeah.

Like, what protein are they eating? Are their blood sugars okay? No, there's not a lot of questions. I don't know.

They're living off baguettes. I can't be healthy. Okay, well, week one of the Olympics is coming to a close. And what better way to celebrate than we are going to hand out some of our own medals for the best moments of week one. So Katie, start us off. Who is taking home bronze? Okay. The bronze medal goes to Egyptian fencer Nada Hafez, who competed...

and got a win while seven month pregnant. Like, are you kidding me? Women can do anything. If this Olympics taught us anything, it's that women are resilient and can do anything. - I love when women, women.

- Literally, I was also like stalking her low key the other day. She's been to three Olympics. This was her best showing, the best she's ever done. She made it to the round of 16 and she went to seven years of school to become a clinical pathologist while doing those Olympics. - Wow. - Shut up. - I saw a comment that was hilarious. I saw a comment that said it's not fair 'cause it was 2v1.

Was it a man? Probably. Because she, you know, obviously is carrying. It's 2v1. It was unfair. Of course it was a man. All right, Logan, who do you have taking silver? All right. Taking home the silver medal is seeing Zhang, who made her Olympic debut in table tennis at 58 years old. Yes. Table tennis is so cool.

Also, the way you have to go so incredibly fast. I feel like we see a ton of young people, even skateboarding, have kids. 58, that's like an anomaly. She's really doing her thing up there and achieving dreams at that age.

So cute. It literally gives me chills. Like we need more 50 over fifties, you know, I want that. What a, what a, what a way to pave the way for everyone over everyone over 17. Listen, age is nothing but a mindset. 58 year olds competed at the Olympics. It's all just a mindset. It's all about how you take care of yourself is how I've

My mantra's been since I turned 30. So for our gold medal moment of week one, we're giving it to the Nigerian women's basketball team. They got their first Olympic win in 20 years against number three Australia. And for brevity...

There's a lot of backstory to this, but it's very special because basically their team was denied entry onto the opening ceremony boat. They traveled three hours all the way to Paris, all excited to get on the boat, only to find out that they weren't allowed. And that's a whole nother topic we can get into. But gold medal to them for getting their first Olympic win over Australia.

Coming up, Logan and I sit down with former U.S. Women's National Team member Lori Lindsey to discuss all things soccer as the U.S. heads to the quarterfinals. We'll be right back. ♪♪♪

Welcome back to Good Follow. Joining us today is former U.S. Women's National Team member and current commentator Lori Lindsey. Lori, it's so wonderful to have you on Good Follow. How are you today? Yeah, I'm great. Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here with you all and talking all things, I think, Olympic soccer. So yeah, this is great. Well, before we start discussing the current team, you were an alternate at the London 2012 Olympic Games. Can you tell us about that experience? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, obviously you want to be in the 18, right. Um, and, and play at all the games, but, uh, we did everything that the team did except for playing the game. So it was like, you were just a sub that never got something. Um, but ultimately it was, um, yeah, just such a wonderful experience. I think, um,

a lot of people that would be listening to this might have an idea just how difficult it is to make one of those teams. Typically, you take 23 to a World Cup. The coach, if you take that exact same team to the Olympics, they're cutting that team down to 18, right? Plus four alternate. And now they've changed this year. They've changed those rooms that...

the alternate and those rules a bit in terms of you can bounce people in and out as we've seen throughout this tournament so far. But for us, that wasn't the case. You ultimately had to like remove somebody from the roster before we could actually be considered part of the 18. But yeah, I mean, listen, this is like...

It is such a wonderful honor to play with the U.S. Women's National Team. So alternate or not, we're on the 18. Yeah, just such a fabulous experience to be able to be at the Olympics, take part in everything, stay at the Olympic Village. We don't typically take part in the opening ceremonies because the tournament's already started. So we did in the closing ceremony. So yeah, dream come true.

What is the best part about that experience other than competing? I always like we see all the fun that's going on, especially this day and age with TikTok and social media. We can see the behind the scenes. But what is that moment aside from competing that is most special as an Olympian? Yeah, I think so, because, you know, obviously with with sports,

soccer or the world cup is huge right and you have the games and that is like the sole focus on football um as we saw last summer in australia new zealand and there's so many more teams uh that are participating and so yes the focus is just on that one sport but i think as americans like for the olympics it's like everything that we dream of right because we love sports we love competing you want to cheer on uh the other the other sports the other

participants that are competing. And so there feels... I think with the Olympics, it's different. There's a real camaraderie because not only are you having fun and you're enjoying it with your own team and trying to win a medal for the United States as a whole and just for your team, you really feel a part of like, okay, I'm cheering on the other athletes. I'm excited about their success as well, knowing that even though there's nuances that are different that takes place for different sports, every

everyone has a similar path, right. Of what it's taken to, um, get to the elite aspect of your sport. So there's like an understanding, I think once you get to that level of like, ah, yes, I understand what you've gone through. I can, um,

I feel your joys. I feel your pain. And I'm excited to cheer you on. So you really feel that, especially I would imagine in a country like France, because it's smaller, you would get the real sense of like, all right, I can feel the energy of the other athletes. And 2012 just so happened to be the last time Team USA won gold at the Olympics. How do you feel about their chances this year?

Yeah, I'm pumped. I'm loving this team. I think it's needed. It feels rejuvenated in so many ways. I think if you look at the team, it is young. There's been a lot of talk that we don't have any Olympians that have won a gold medal, yet there's experience on this team in terms of winning World Cup gold medals. So I think there's a really good balance. I mean, fabulous footballers, fabulous athletes, and just a team that I think

to really get along and have good cohesion or just excited. And then obviously you bring in a coach like Emma Hayes and her personality in front of the media as well, just as I think it was rejuvenated and excited the fan base as well, plus these athletes. So yeah, I love it. I think as we can have continued to see throughout this tournament, more and more cohesion, which is something that Emma has talked about throughout, right. Given that it's been like what six or seven games for her now, now I'm losing track of how many games she's been here, but,

There's still a work in progress, but there's still very much like this. It is on like accelerated pace. It feels like in terms of what this team can do, what it's capable of. And I think we're all on like buckle up. Right. Cause it's been like such a fun ride and we're just starting to get going. I feel like. And you can't really count any country out at the same time. And I, we saw that last year at the world cup, the rest of the world, our,

catching up to the U.S. and their dominance. And that's incredible. That goes to show the investment and the growth of the game. And even still thus far in the Olympics, the U.S. have beat both Zambia and Germany in dominating fashion. And at the time of this recording, they're up right now on Australia. What is the difference that you see between this team and Tokyo 2020 and even last year's World Cup team? Yeah, I think it goes back to what I was saying. There's a cohesion, right? I think in

You know, we're starting to see some of these players. Like, obviously, Mal Swanson was injured during the World Cup. That was a huge loss, right? I think we could all feel the heartbreak for her, but also as fans, right? And as, like, former member of this team and how long it takes to, like...

get to that point and then to miss out. We see her dominance. We see Sophia Smith. I mean, just like, what is it? The trifecta, the trident, they're calling the front three. Like there's just like an excitement and joy to the way that they're playing. I think we're seeing, you know, nuances to, um,

I think there's just a more clear structure that we're seeing with Emma Hayes. And it's more identifiable, right? So if you turn on, yes, we know the intangibles of the US team. We're going to work hard. We are going to like high energy. We want to put teams under pressure. But I also think we're starting to see the nuances of like, oh, I can identify this. This is how they want to build out, right? They want to build out of the back this way. They want to keep possession. They want to...

be closer together. And then maybe in the, in the attack, it's more expansive, right? So that we can pull teams out and then get more players involved. So that's a little bit in the weeds, but I think those are the things that we are seeing under this team that is more clear. And obviously you're shifting players around. You're getting players that maybe had previously come off the bench. They're playing more dominant roles and,

And that's just the evolution of cycles, right? It's the evolution of players retiring and new players coming through. And it just feels like such a wonderful time for these younger players to get their opportunities. And my goodness, are they taking it? And it's been so fun to watch.

And with that win over Germany, they locked up their spot in the quarterfinals. They've been playing well so far, but what do you think their biggest challenge is going to be kind of going on to the next stages and hopefully making it to the finals? Yeah, I think the biggest challenge, and we actually saw it in the first half of this game, right? And we saw it to lead up into the Olympics as well as when teams sit back because against Zambia and then also Germany, they're

they didn't sit back. They still were going to attack. So it leaves room for us to be able to counter attack. It leads, leaves room for us to be able to have more space in the attack. And, you know, one of the talking points always, and not just for the U S from his ash team, I think any team, right. We see it with man city men players, a team sitting back, uh,

against them. It is difficult to sit, to break down a team that sits back and puts a lot of numbers behind the ball. What the biggest test will be is how do teams line up against us, right? How do we react? How do we stay composed? If we don't get an early goal and we saw a set piece can be huge. That can be the difference. We have, I think, wonderful tools on both sides of the ball. And again, it goes back to the nuances I'm talking about under Emma Hayes.

It's like, okay, what does this team look like when we don't have the ball as much, right? If we face Spain or Japan, they would predominantly have the majority of possession, I would imagine, right? So how do we react to that? How do we take our chances when we do get on the ball? And then vice versa. If a team sits back, how do we react to that of keeping possession, being more patient than maybe we have seen in the past?

because we are trying to change tendencies. We are trying to do some things different than maybe some of these players see on a daily basis in the NWSL with their club teams, which is a bit more of a transitional style of play. So Lori, as we, as the U.S., as we continue on in the knockout,

phases of the Olympics. Yeah, it's we. It's we. I'm like in a shirt and I say, it's we. As we continue in the knockout phases, what countries or which countries do you think are going to be the biggest test for the U.S.? Yeah, I'm excited. I think Spain, Japan. I mean, listen, you all said it. It's

with only 12 teams, there's not an easy group, right? Or there's not an easy team to play against. I mean, everyone's trying to pick out like the group of death and it's like, you're looking across the board and you're like, well, okay, every group is a group of death. But yeah, I look at Japan and how they performed in the world cup last year. They've continued that on. There's a rejuvenation in the way that they're playing, right? There's some more directness, but they also can keep possession. Spain obviously is world champions, number one in the world. So that's always going to present problems.

I'll be curious to see what happens with Canada because obviously we all are very clear on what's going on with their team in terms of, um, the drone stuff. We don't need to get into that, but that is surrounding them. They've been outspoken about, um, coming together, um, you know, building on this, seeing if they can get one of those third place or, or when today, and I didn't check to see if they could finish second, but regardless, I think anybody that we play, there's always going to be presented, uh,

a challenge, which makes it exciting. That's where women's soccer is now, which also just in general makes it exciting. I think it just is about us showing up every single day and being precise. You mentioned the trio of the forward line of Trinity Rodman, Mal Swanson, and Sophia Smith. They are doing so incredibly well, but how do you think they compare to other forward lines that we've seen in the past? Yeah, good question. I mean, listen, the one thing that we know about the U.S. is that

It's always had incredible strikers, right? I mean, across the board, you could go on and on and on. So it's hard to compare. And the way that I think about this group is amazing. This is their opportunity, right? These players are exceptional. They're all have been in incredible form. They're in their prime, they're before their prime and they're performing the way they are. So I think it feels like unfair to them, but it also feels unfair to like,

all the other strikers because everyone's different, right? And the game's evolving. The thing that I love about this particular group in general, though, is that I was saying this the other day in commentary is that there's like a balance, but an imbalance to that. So you have Trini Rodman who loves to provide the width and she'll take on one-to-one, I mean, generational talent, right? Like she's like, if she gets running at you, it's...

quite literally unstoppable. Like that is like, do you drop off? Do you get tight? She's going to spend. So there's just like, she has the ability to take on one V one. There's obviously the talk about her becoming even a more complete package this year, assisting more creating for other, other players. And then there's like, then there is mouse Watson and Sophia Smith and they're

that they have, right? The connection they have just instinctually so they can play off of one another in the way that Mal plays, which is more often tucked in, they can interchange, right? And we saw that connection against Germany for that first goal. Mal Swanson makes the near post run, drags the defender, Trinity, quick give and go to find the space, plays Mal Swanson, excuse me, Sophia Smith.

And all three of them are getting involved. So I think just for them, like lights out and congrats because I know when you're in this stage, there's nerves, there's excitement and yeah,

They're embracing it. They're having fun and they're giving us content. How lucky are we off the field too? So it's just like pretty good. Phenomenal. I'm like loving it. So yeah. And on the field, what did Julie Foddy, I think just say 14 out of the 16 goals under Emma Hayes, they've been a part of. So yeah,

So other than Mal, Trin and Sophia, what other U.S. players are going to be key for their Olympic run? I know it sounds cliche, but it really is about the whole. Like when you think about the four alternates, right, and they've they started as alternates and some players are coming back and forth. We see Emily Sam's just got elevated to the 18. Corbethune has also been elevated since Jaden Shaw came.

So everybody's playing a part. And with a team that's unchanged in three games, that means everybody also has to play part because you want to play, right? Everybody on this team wants to play, but you also are like, Nope, I'm here for the whole. So that's why I say first and foremost, it really does take everybody because it's,

player is just as important as the first and they would all know that. But I don't think you could look past the list in there. Huge saves. First couple of saves against Germany that kept it zero because they could have been up on us. So we've seen her do that time and time again in big games, whether it's penalty kicks or just run of the play saves. And then...

I don't really think you can, if I'm going to pick out players, I don't think you can look further than Nami Gurma. I mean, just best center back in the world. Like my goodness. So great. And also a shout out to Crystal Dunn because for large parts of this, this, this year hadn't started Jenna Niswonger had been the starting left back for Gotham. She plays as a midfielder or on the front line. That's not easy to balance back and forth. She's also played in the attack and she,

for the way that she's performing. Not surprising, but also that's not an easy task, right? To have not started a ton of the games throughout this year.

start and look like you've been playing every single minute this entire season. Okay. Lori, before we let you go, can we get a gold silver bronze prediction from you? Oh goodness. This is tough though, because I don't know the path. I haven't done. I haven't like delved into the scene, like the bracket. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, oh goodness.

If it was just, okay, let's just go if it was up to me. And I don't even know if this is possible. So like, LOL, like, no, that's not it. To start the tournament, I don't know if I would have put us at gold. And it's a toss up for me, right? Just because, you know, we had...

hadn't scored goals. There's minimal time under Emma Hayes. I would probably at this point in time, just because they're world champions, put Spain as the gold medalist, us as silver medalist. And then I'm going with, oh goodness, I need to look at the brackets, but Japan is the third as the bronze medalist. Again, I don't even know if that's possible. How about you all? Do you all have any, do you all have any predictions? I,

I feel like I have to say U.S. is gold. Yeah. I mean, when you flip it back on me, I'm like, well, shoot, I don't know either because I also don't know the bracket. Spain is definitely somewhere in there. I would have said a week ago Canada. Sorry, Logan. Logan's Canadian. I don't know if I consider that also. I might have to go with yours. I also like Japan up there. I initially had France in there, too. Oh, I forgot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, the way that we're playing, I feel like...

it's going to be hard to stop us. Um, and also, um,

Spain is freaking good. So, and all these teams are good. So, and coming off a world championship. So, but like, this makes it fun, right? So I'm like, let's go. Here we go. Well, Laurie, thank you so much for joining. Good follow. It was wonderful having you on the show. Oh my goodness. Thank you. Great to see you both. Thanks for the conversation. Coming up is one topic that you may not have heard much about at the Paris Olympics, the sex testing of elite women athletes. And there's a reason for that.

For more on the history, we sat down with Rose Eveleth, the reporter and host of the new series Tested, a co-production from CBC and NPR's Embedded.

It's been a three-year wait, but the Olympics are back, and the CBS Sports Podcast Network has you covered with everything happening in Paris. It's a new era for the U.S. women's national team, and attacking third will tackle all the women's soccer action. First cut will keep close tabs on golf, while beyond the arc will follow the U.S. men's basketball team on a quest for another gold. And we need to talk now will provide comprehensive coverage of women's athletes at the Olympic Games. Follow

and listen to all CBS Sports podcasts for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by our good friends at NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I'm sure by now you've all got back into your Sunday routines, but they could be even better. With NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV, you get the most live NFL games all in one place, every game, every Sunday.

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I'm Rose Eveleth, and I am the host of a new show from CBC and NPR's Embedded. It's called Tested, and it is about the past, present, and future of so-called gender verification tests in elite athletics. So this long history and current situation where some women are being asked to prove that they are actually women. And in fact, today, some women are being asked to take medications and change their bodies in order to compete in the female category at the elite level.

The show kind of looks at why that's happening, where this comes from, and what we should be doing in the future.

One of my big questions when I first started researching this was this question of why. Why are we doing this? Why did anybody at any point think that women needed to be tested to make sure they were really women? And the answer is really complicated actually and very fascinating. So there were sort of three things that the folks in charge of sports at the time in the 20s and 30s were worried about. The first was this idea that men would pretend to be women and enter into women's competition and of course win because men are better at sports is the assumption.

thing they were worried about was women who were maybe not 100% women was the way they would talk about it. That maybe they were really only 60% women and 40% men and that that somehow was wrong and should be fixed in some way or excluded in some way. And the third thing they were worried about was

women actually turning into men if they competed in sports, which is a thing they really believed could happen. That if you were a woman who was maybe one of these borderline cases, you could actually be tipped over and turn into a man because of competing in sports. And so all three of those things are kind of in the ether and sort of fuel this question of sex testing in the 20s and 30s. But what I learned in researching this is that as soon as women

enter into the Olympics on the track, particularly in track and field. So 1928 is the first year women are allowed to run on the track. And as soon as they do, men are pointing fingers saying, "That's not a woman. That's not a woman. That woman looks wrong. There's something wrong about her. We should do something about this." And 1936 is when the first policy is on the books for track and field, which it's sort of very vague.

And again, there's no information about what that exam looks like. We assume it's a physical inspection of probably genitalia. And that's when it starts. It starts all the way back at the very beginning.

The language question is a really tricky one in terms of what words do we use. And, you know, this is a story that spans 100 years as well. So this language changes over time. And, you know, it was really in reporting and making the series was something that we grappled with. But some of the key things to know is that when we talk about the modern athletes today, we're talking about athletes who have

have variations in sex biology. So the medicalized term for that is DSD, differences of sex development. There's also the word intersex. Intersex today is much more like an identity term, sort of like queer, in that you sort of opt into it. It's something you sort of self-identify as. Whereas DSD is a medical term that is sort of

put upon someone by a doctor. Throughout this series, I follow a bunch of athletes who are currently dealing with these policies: Christine Boma, Maximila Imali, and some others. And my goal was to use the words they use for themselves. These women don't use the word intersex for themselves. They also don't really use the word DSD for themselves because that's sort of not a term they'd ever been familiar with until they were told it was something that they now are. To be clear, these are not trans athletes.

The athletes in question here were all assigned female at birth. And just like Christine, most say they never suspected that there was anything different about their bodies.

The biggest thing is that women with these DSDs produce a high amount of testosterone naturally in their bodies and they can use it. So some women produce a ton of testosterone but their bodies are totally insensitive to it so it doesn't really do anything. These women naturally produce high levels of testosterone so this is not doping, they're not taking anything, it's that their bodies produce this and their bodies can use it.

And so the argument is that because they have this higher level of testosterone and because their bodies can process that testosterone and potentially benefit from it, they have an unfair advantage over women who don't have that testosterone level. The director of the Health and Science Department at World Athletics, Dr. Stéphane Bremond, said in an interview:

If a person claims to be a woman and wants to compete in this protected female category, then she should be happy to lower her testosterone level. If this is not the case, then one must ask questions about her true sexual identity. I've never heard of any kind of sex testing being done on men. And the reason for that is that

A, there's this idea that of course women would never try and sneak into men's competition because they would not win, which we know is not true in the sense that we know that women have indeed had to pretend to be men to compete in things like the marathon because they were not allowed to do so. Men are allowed to have as much testosterone naturally as they please. It's great for them. And so these rules really only apply to women. The idea here is that

Women are worse at sports. And so if we are going to have a women's category, we need to make sure we're protecting that women's category against essentially men who might try and compete in it.

And that idea, that sort of idea of protection, is really at the core of these policies. The 800 meters race yesterday for women was a disgrace. The first five women crossing the finish line collapsed. They burst into tears, falling onto the grass unconscious. Very feminine trait. Even this distance makes too great a call on feminine strength.

In the show you hear about a bunch of athletes, but the two main athletes that I spent a lot of time with were Christine Boma and Max Imali. So Christine Boma is a silver medalist in the Tokyo Olympics in the 200. She is an absolute superstar in Namibia. She's the first woman to win a medal at the Olympics for Namibia. And so she is just like an absolute icon there.

She's chosen to play by the rules and try and take these drugs to lower her body's testosterone level and attempt to make it to Paris to be able to compete at the Olympics this year. The other athlete I spent time with is Maximila Imali, who is Kenyan. She has a couple of Kenyan national records, the 100 and the 200.

And she is choosing not to take the drugs. And in fact, she's choosing to try and fight these rules and take world athletics to court and take them to the court of arbitration for sport. So if you are an athlete in this position, you have technically a couple of choices. You can play by the rules, which means that you change your body in some way. And medication is one way you can do that. Another way you can do that is to

opt for a surgery to remove the organs in your body that might be producing the testosterone. So some of these women have internal testes that are producing the testosterone. You can have what's called a gonadectomy to remove them. That is obviously a permanent change. If you do that, you do have to be on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of your life. The other option that World Athletics gives in the regulations is that these women could, according to the rules, compete in the male category, even though they are not men.

Obviously, none of you athletes are doing that because that doesn't make any sense to them or to really anyone else that they would go and compete in the male category. When a whole crowd shouts at somebody who's won their first Olympic ticket that you're not a woman,

Imagine what it does to that person. The emotional impact on these athletes is in some way, in my opinion, worse than some of the physical stuff. You can stop taking these drugs, right? But you can't unring the bell of people talking about you. These women are 18 when they find this information out, 19. They get a phone call from someone that they often don't know, have never met, who tells them, "Hey,

I know you think that you know yourself, and I know you think you are female, but actually our tests show that you're really not. So there's that. That's bewildering and confusing to learn about yourself at 18. Then you also have people whose information gets leaked to the media for whatever reason. Suddenly we know this about these women. And so now you have them going home to their home countries and people coming up to them on the street saying,

I heard you're a man. Aren't you a man? And having to answer that question. And then on top of all of that, you have the media who, for some reason or another, feels that they need to comment on these women at any given time. Jenny, I shall be watching the Namibian, Christina Mboma, very carefully. She is, of course, one of those athletes with a DSD question mark hanging over her head. Every time one of these athletes shows up, it's, this is a DSD athlete, this is a DSD athlete.

You have this invitation almost to comment on their bodies, what they look like, their performance. And those comments are shockingly similar to what you heard in 1928 and 1936, right? "A shot and discus double was achieved by Tamara Press, who's big enough to play tackle for the Chicago Bears." I've been following this topic for over 10 years, ever since I heard about a South African runner named Kaster Semenya who made headlines back in 2009

when athletes, officials, and journalists all very publicly questioned whether she was really a woman. "The controversy continues this morning about that champion runner from South Africa who's now undergoing a battery of tests to determine if she is really a she." "You have the head of the International Federation for Track and Field saying about Kastor Semenya, 'She is a woman, but maybe not 100 percent.' Is she really a woman? Is she too fast to be a woman?

"I mean, you're hearing almost the exact same things echoed again in the media. People talking about, 'She's so powerful, she's so strong, look at her muscles.' We haven't come very far, unfortunately." Casta Semenya's impressed in two performances since an 11-month absence, while authorities investigated her ambiguous gender.

I would love for commentators, whether they're calling a live race or whether they're reporting on this, to actually do a bit of research about what does that mean? When you say, oh, she's a DSD athlete, do you actually understand what that means? Does the audience actually need to know this information? Like, what am I actually saying here? What am I telling the audience about this person and why? Why do I think that the audience needs to know this about this person? Because in fact,

really is that anytime Christine wins, it's with an asterisk. It's, oh yeah, she won, but she's one of those, you know? And like, is she really talented or does she have this thing? But also, I mean, watch interviews with Christine. Watch interviews with Max. Actually get to know them as people as opposed to just sort of a symbol of a topic, right? This controversial topic.

There's nothing controversial about Christine. She's living in the body that she was born with. The rules are controversial. Just being thoughtful about how we talk about these women is really, it should be the bare minimum, and yet we are not crossing that bar. As a doctor, there's a saying, we don't treat labs, we treat patients.

We don't just artificially obsess over a number. You use the labs as one piece of information, but we are never treating the lab. And that's why this is such an artificial thing that they're asking Castor to do is that they're forcing her to become a laboratory value when bodies just don't work like that.

In general, when we tune into sports, what we're watching is people who are by definition outliers, right? By definition, their bodies are doing things that you and I, no offense, could not do, you know? And in some cases that we celebrate that. And in other cases we say, actually, we need you to regulate your body so that you don't have that advantage. I do think that there's going to be more and more interest in pinpointing what genes in particular do these elite athletes have and what advantage does that

give them, if any. But I still think that we do need to be really thoughtful about what it is that we're doing and why. And does the sort of risk and the privacy risk and the sort of like backsliding into eugenics land outweigh the benefit of fun facts about why these athletes are so elite?

There are a lot of different options people have floated to potentially solve some of these problems. One of them is a third category that we would put people in. It's sort of an interesting, squishy place because sometimes people talk about, "Okay, we'll put non-binary people in this third category." Sometimes people talk about, "We'll put trans competitors in this third category." Sometimes people talk about, "We'll put these DSD athletes in this third category." Those are three quite different groups.

And just having them all just get lumped into this third category is a little strange. So this is the IOC position, the Olympics position. It's OK if you want to regulate. But if you're going to do that, you need to have really robust science that shows very clearly an advantage. And that science needs to be based on the specific individuals who we're talking about. So in the case of world athletics, it would be--

Specifically the women in elite track and field who have DSD conditions, the people you actually want to regulate. You need to do a study on those people and figure out what their advantage is compared to non-DSD athletes at the elite level. There's also this idea of like, let's just let everybody compete as the gender that they are, which would be my preference personally. You know, that seems like the simplest in some ways answer to this problem.

So there's a million ways this could go, and I think each of these does have pros and cons, right? Like, there's no obvious perfect solution to some of these big questions. It's hard to know how to measure success in something like this. Some people would argue, "Yes, we've been totally successful. We're doing a great job." I think that it is hard to make that case. You've spent thousands and thousands of dollars, put thousands of women through a whole lot of humiliating tests,

And you haven't caught a single man masquerading as a woman. That has never happened ever once. And so your return on investment's probably not so good there. What you have done instead is, again, put women through all of these tests, told women they are not actually women, they need to leave, and had women kicked out of the Olympics. You've had women stripped of their medals over sort of a misunderstanding of biology, stripped of medals, stripped of records. And all in the name of, again, seeking to prevent

a thing that we've never seen, that has never happened. As far as I know from all my reporting, no DSD athletes will be competing in track and field in Paris. None of them were able to get through the hoops of the medications and then had time to qualify and were able to get there. But also ethically, this question of how many people have to suffer and for what? And I don't know, it just doesn't, the calculation just doesn't work out, I don't think.

I've spent the last 10 years thinking about this story, in part because it has so many compelling wrinkles, so many people I've come to care about, so many twists and turns. But I think the reason I spent so long trying to tell this story is because it forces me to grapple with how we try and impose order on a messy, confusing world, all in an effort to create neat categories.

when in reality, there is just a continuum. And you have to ask, how much suffering is worth allowing, and whose, in the name of categorizing?

Welcome back to Good Follow. It's impossible to cover such extensive and expansive history in a short segment. The six-part series details this fascinating topic and is well worth a listen. Tested is available now wherever you get your podcasts. It's now time for this week's DraftKings Picks. USA Women's Basketball is on their quest for an eighth straight gold medal.

Looking at winner splits, they are leading the way on DraftKings Sportsbook at minus 1800 and they're getting 98% of the bets. I'm picking the United States to win in this Sunday's matchup against Germany. And I have Asia Wilson for tournament MVP. She is sitting at minus 240 to win MVP and has 66% of the bets currently, which is no surprise for one of the world's best.

Behind Asia in the MVP odds is Brianna Stewart with a plus 250. And it's so fun watching these two play together in the Olympics. Logan, what do you think about this dynamic duo of Asia and Brianna? I love them. They're the two best players in the world. They're the face of the WNBA. They're the face of basketball at the Olympics. They're the face of team USA basketball at the Olympics. They are the face period. Um,

I think those are very good picks. If we're not going with Asia Wilson MVP, we're going with Stewie MVP. And that's exactly what is needed. Even looking at the odds from a minus 240 to a plus 250 is a very big spread. But so that says a lot about Asia. But that really shouldn't take away from the elite athleticism that is also Brianna. And to get to see them play together on the court and go for that eighth straight medal is really fun.

If I was another team, I'd actually just stand in the middle of the court and start crying. Just be like, you know what? I have to use the bathroom. Mom, just give it up. Please. Just give it up. Just lay on the ground. Let the USA walk all over you. Yeah.

I don't know if y'all have seen this news, but Don Staley, who is on the selection committee, has been quoted saying that if they could redo the process of selecting the national team for the Paris Olympics, that Caitlin Clark would be in heavy consideration for a spot. Logan, what do you think about this? Would you have Caitlin on this Olympics roster? Nope. Not in a bad way. You know what I would do, actually, to be honest?

And I was... That no was so aggressive. I'm so sorry. I love it. I love it. No, but you know what I want to do? Don't put her on the main team. They have all their stuff together. Put her on the three-on-three team. They need her. And I think she would...

absolutely kill it. They haven't been doing the best. They got off to a little bit of a rocky start, but I think she is much needed on that team. And then she's still representing Team USA as well. So everyone's happy. 98% of the bets are on USA. And you're like, I think I would, I think I would change it. I think if I could do it again, I would change it. Why? Well, I think it's interesting because I've seen things. And again, I, when it comes to X's and O's, I don't know a lot, but I've seen things, especially on social media where people were upset that

that she wasn't named to the three-on-three team, but does she not, does she have experience in that? I mean, not to say that she doesn't know how, but three-on-three is a different type of pace than your typical five-on-five.

What's the league that's starting at like next year, the three on three? Unrivaled. Yeah. Like there's like talk that she might do that. So get her there. See how she does. Give her experience. Get her in and train her. And then and then let's talk about that. I still think there's a huge piece of the conversation that is experience is not.

being thought of as highly as it should be. I don't know much about the actual tactics of basketball, so don't come for me saying that I said she's not experienced enough to play three on three. I'm just regurgitating what I read on social media, which for better or for worse. You can come for me. I don't really care. I have filters set up. Usually I just get robots, so I'd welcome a conversation. All right. Well, anything you don't like, I'm going to follow direct to Katie Devati.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, as you all know, the foundation of this show is that communities get built one good follow at a time. And each week, one of us will highlight a person, page, or brand as the good follow of the week. So Katie is up this week. Katie, who is your good follow? We talked about her earlier, but it bears repeating.

Alona Mar is absolutely outstanding. I can't get over the fact that she's only 27 years old and she's making such a name for herself and standing up to so many tough topics in such a vulnerable way. Like I am just blown away by her. Let's check out two of my favorite clips from her so far. You know, there's only one person in this world who can tell you what you are.

Me. Now. Me. Sue Sylvester. This week, a hot new bombshell enters the villa. Don't call me up. I'm going out tonight. Okay, so these are two of my top because she hits all of my niche interests. We got musical theater in Glee. We have Love Island, Trash Reality, and we have sports. It's a perfect Venn diagram in my opinion. I was going to say, if there's a Venn diagram.

Instagram of Katie's interest. It is a flat circle and it is a loan. Amar. Yeah. And she's nailing it. And so I love that. And this is the fun stuff. This is what social media like started out as right. We were there for the entertainment, but she also uses her platform to talk about,

very important conversations that hit me personally so deeply. She talks about BMI and as someone who consistently gets told that I need to eat less and I'm overweight and obese and should go on We Go V by doctors, like I need to hear this from her. And so do a lot of other women. And she also talks about how important different body types are at the Olympics and every body matters and every body can be strong. Um,

And she also stands up to bullies in her comments in a fire way that I wish I had the cojones for. Yeah.

Let's check this one out. As the Olympics officially start today, I want you all to take a look at all the different body types on display. All body types matter. All body types are worthy, from the smallest gymnast to the tallest volleyball player, from a rugby player to a shot putter and a sprinter. Truly see yourself in these athletes and know that you can do it too. I do have a BMI of 30. I chatted with my dietician, and we talked about BMI, and we talked about how it really...

isn't helpful for athletes. BMI doesn't tell you much. It just tells you what your height and weight and what that equals. I've said it before, I'm 5'10", 200 pounds. And that BMI doesn't really tell you what I can do. So yeah, I do have a BMI of 30. I am considered overweight, but alas, I'm going to the Olympics and you're not. Oh, it's so good. She just uses her platform for such good. And you love to see that from athletes and in a fun way.

It's so fun. And it's the role model that we all need. And I look up to her so, so much. It's been really hitting me. Everyone needs to go follow Alona. And we want to hear from our fans. Who is your good follow? Please send us your nominations at Good Follow Show. Tell us why your good follow should be featured. We want to talk about them. Good Follow is brought to you by DraftKings. You know where to find us. Same time next week.

Woo!