Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hi, it's Phoebe. We're heading back out on tour this fall, bringing our 10th anniversary show to even more cities. Austin, Tucson, Boulder, Portland, Oregon, Detroit, Madison, Northampton, and Atlanta, we're coming your way. Come and hear seven brand new stories told live on stage by me and Criminal co-creator Lauren Spohr. We think it's the best live show we've ever done. Tickets are on sale now at thisiscriminal.com slash live. See you very soon.
Hey, I'm Sean Ely. For more than 70 years, people from all political backgrounds have been using the word Orwellian to mean whatever they want it to mean.
But what did George Orwell actually stand for? Orwell was not just an advocate for free speech, even though he was that. But he was an advocate for truth in speech. He's someone who argues that you should be able to say that two plus two equals four. We'll meet the real George Orwell, a man who was prescient and flawed, this week on The Gray Area. Travelle, how are you?
I'm well. I'm well. I'm very grateful. And I'm happy to be talking to you on this side. On this side. How long have you been out? Well, today will be like a little under a month. Thursday will be a full month, full four weeks. Last month, Travell Coleman was released from prison after nearly 14 years. We first met him at Fishkill Correctional Facility last summer.
In 1993, when he was 18 years old, he shot a man three times in Harlem. I didn't plan on actually doing anything. I just had a gun. And I was riding around and, you know, I happened to see a guy, you know what I mean? And I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe I could just rob this guy, you know? Travell rode away on his bicycle without knowing what had happened to the man.
For years and years, he didn't tell anyone about that night. The police never suspected him. We shared Travell's story in two episodes we released last fall. They're called The Confession, Part 1 and 2. Travell told us that he always thought about the man he'd shot. And 17 years after the shooting, Travell walked into a police station and turned himself in. He was 36. You know, I started thinking about it more and more. I'm like, well, look, you know,
If anything did happen, that will be ... I just felt like that was the only way I can resolve it. You know what I mean? I just thought about it. Well, if I turn myself in, I could find out what happened to him, and if something did happen, then here we go. You know what I mean? Then I could kind of move on, whatever happens after that. Because you didn't know if he was alive or dead.
No, I didn't. I didn't know. After a while, I told myself he was all right, but I still didn't know. I didn't know for sure. Did it get to a point where even though if he had died, you knew that you would be going to prison for a very long time, it didn't matter anymore? No, it didn't matter. It was like...
It is what it is at that point. That's how I looked at it. Whatever happens, this is it. After he turned himself in, he learned that the man he had shot had died. His name was John Hengel. Travell Coleman was sentenced to prison, 15 years to life. Travell's lawyer, Steve Zeidman. You know, I've heard of people turning themselves in, but it's usually soon thereafter the crime, or it's somebody who knows law enforcement is looking for them.
What makes this entirely unique is that Travell was never a suspect in the first place. So no, I've never experienced anything like someone coming forward 17 years after the fact. So no, this is absolutely extraordinary. When we last spoke with Travell and Steve, they had submitted a clemency application and were waiting to hear from the governor's office. And then, in December of last year, Steve got a phone call. Getting that call from the governor, from my perspective, it's...
It's hard to put in words because clemency is so rarely granted, even in as compelling a case as Travell's. So when a call comes, you know, there have been times they've actually said to me, take a seat. We have some good news for you. This was one of those moments. Travell was being granted clemency. That feeling right there was probably...
more concentrated than actually getting out. Because at that point, you know, we were anticipating, you know, something good happening, but then again, you have these doubts, like, well, maybe not, you don't know, you know what I mean? So it was kind of like a, you know, kind of a roller coaster of emotions that I was going through at that time. And so it was like a weight was lifted type of thing, you know what I mean? The governor has the power to commute a sentence and basically say, "You're going home tomorrow."
Or they can do what they did in Travelle's case. They can say, we're reducing your sentence to make you immediately eligible to see the parole board. So I was thrilled to hear the news that clemency was granted. I was not so happy to hear that he wasn't immediately going home because the parole board is never, you know, you can't guarantee that. Tell me a little bit about what happened.
You heard the clemency was going to be granted, and then you were going to have to go in front of the parole board. What did you have to do to prepare to go in front of the parole board? Was that meetings between both of you? What are we going to say? What's our case here? Yeah, the process of preparing for the parole board, it's pretty daunting. Travelle and I met. We talked about the interview. We exchanged a lot of emails about what to expect.
What are the trickier questions? What are the hard questions? How do you respond? I know Travelle on the inside, working with peers. There was a parole preparation workshop run by the men inside. But it's gathering materials to give to the board to make the best case possible. Keeping your fingers crossed that you don't get some of the parole board commissioners who are unlikely to release anybody, frankly.
Once you get a parole board date, it's just a matter of chance about who are going to be the parole commissioners. And remember, this is on video. It's not in person. There's supposed to be three parole board members. Often there are just two. And not a lot of notice about who's going to be in front. So you can only prepare so much. From my perspective, I prepare for the worst. And by the worst, I mean the commissioners who are going to ask questions.
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. And are you thinking the whole time, if this doesn't go well...
We've got one shot here. You know, it's interesting you say that. When Travelle got clemency and was made immediately eligible to see the parole board, there are a bunch of folks saying, well, the governor gave him clemency. Of course, the parole board is going to grant release, which to me is like that anybody would just assume that is a little frightening.
So you see the board, if you're denied, they can set your next interview two years down the road. If you're denied then, they can set your next interview two years after that. So the stakes remained real high. So it's not as though, okay, we'll be back next week. Correct. We'll take another number. We'll wait. It's years, potentially, of life. There have been people who've been denied parole 10, 12, 14 times. One of the first people I ever worked with was in 44 years on a 25-to-life sentence. He'd been denied parole 14 times.
The day of the parole hearing, Travell was brought to a building at Fishkill. The parole hearing would take place over a video call. While you were waiting to be called, were you with other people who were going up against the parole board that day? Yeah. Well, yes, it was about 10 of us. Did you talk beforehand? Yeah, we talked. It was, you know, a lot of it was nervous chatter, you know what I'm saying? We were just...
consoling each other, not consoling each other, but just, you know, kind of helping each other get through it. Yo, man, you know, don't worry about it. You know, oh, you should be all right, you know, one of those things. Yo, look, how long you been in? Oh, man, don't worry about it. You know, stuff like that. And, you know, it was a couple guys there that I actually knew, that I actually worked with. So we sat there and talked, you know.
How does it actually work? I mean, do you—Travel, what happened during the hearing? Steve, you were there on Zoom or— No, you can't have anybody present. Travel's there on his own. I was just there. I was—you go in a room, and you go—you sit down, and you're right in front of, like, a TV, probably about that big. And then the people pop up, and they pan around, and they introduce everybody, and
And then when they usually have one central person to ask all the questions. Were you nervous? Yeah, I was nervous because, you know, I mean, you know, it was just intimidating. I never experienced anything like that, you know. I didn't know if I was going to say the wrong thing. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know the temperature of, you know, how those things work, you know what I mean? Do you remember the first thing they asked you? I think the first thing they asked me was, how do I see people?
Like, how do I think I'm different now? I think that was one of the first questions because when I first sat down, they just kind of just ran down everything. Like, they were talking.
You know what I mean? They didn't ask me anything. They just was like, "Oh, okay. You know you're Travelle Coleman and is that correct?" I think that was the first question. I was like, "Yes." And then they decided, "So you committed this crime this day and this and that." And then they start when they went on and on. But then that was the first question. They said, "So why do you think you're different now?" Do you remember what you said?
I mean, I just told them that I was a follower back then, you know, and, you know, I've learned to be more of an individual these days. And I understand that I had to have a more righteous direction in order to live, you know, unlike, you know, I was living, you know what I mean? And I understood that. Travell told them about what he would do if he got out. He wanted to get a job and work on his music. When it was over, how did you feel like it went?
Were you still nervous? I was. I was nervous because I wasn't nervous. I was uncertain. I didn't know, you know, at that point, you know, no, they don't give you any indication of what they're going to do. They're just, okay, you know, all right, good. Thanks for coming today.
And I saw, you know, I knew a couple of guys that went in there and, you know, it seemed like they did well, you know what I mean? And then they wind up, you know, telling me later, like, yo, man, I didn't make it. You know what I'm saying? So I didn't know. I didn't know what to think. You know what I mean? I was like, you know, all I could do was wonder. But the only thing that did help me get through that, those long, long years,
Seven days. They said, we'll be getting back to you early next week. And this was maybe a Wednesday. She said, we'll be getting back to you early next week. So, you know, the first thing I thought, Monday, I should have an answer. You know what I mean? So that's what kind of helped me get through the weekend. I said, okay, Monday. We'll be right back. Steve, you know, you knew the day that Travelle was going up against the board. Were you differently, of course, but in the same way thinking differently?
Oh, what's going to happen? What's going to happen? Kind of on pins and needles. Very nervous, very anxious. And, you know, the thing about it, too, is a case like Travelle's, because it was because of who he is and the high profile nature, that adds an extra element of concern. Because ultimately, whether it's the governor, the parole board, they know that their decision is going to be public. It's going to be scrutinized. It's going to be in the media.
And in the back of my mind, I just kept being fearful that somehow that was going to tip the scale in the wrong way. Were you trying to be positive, though, to Travelle? Were you trying to not let your quiet fears show? Yeah, always, always. I remember the last time we saw each other, just saying, and I know it sounds like a cliche, but, you know, you got this. He had the answers to every question. We really didn't need to even prepare that much. And it's also the way people come across. And I know that that's subjective for all of us, but...
I mean, some people come across as just thoughtful, mature, humble. And to me, that matters to the parole board, whether it should or not is a whole other thing. But yeah, confident, you know, trying to convey confidence and keep some of my own fears to myself. You know, just because with each passing day, there are two ways to think about it. You know, you're thinking, okay, is it with each passing day, is that good or bad?
There was a way in which I was hoping, okay, this was Wednesday, Friday. They should just let you know Friday you got parole. And when we didn't hear Friday, that kind of made me a little concerned. Travell, did everyone know that you had gone up against the parole board, your friends? Was everyone kind of waiting along with you to hear what was going to happen? Inside, not outside. I mean, of course, outside. Yeah, well, inside, just the people that I dealt with, like the people in my unit.
You know, I mean, it's kind of a big thing when you go to the parole when you're inside because everybody knows with time. There's a certain set, like a certain week when everybody goes to parole. So, you know, I like ran into a couple of people while I was walking over there. So people know that you're going to parole, you know, so. Did the guards know? Did you speak to any of the guards about what was happening? Yeah, some of them. Like I said, there's no, there's really no secrets in prison, you know.
Even the guards, oh yeah, I heard you went to parole the other day, good luck, you know, stuff like that. They were mostly supportive. On the Tuesday after his parole hearing, April 2nd, Travell was called into an office at Fishkill. And you didn't know when they just said, come down here, you'd know it could have been... Yeah, it could have been bad. So the thing is...
It's true though. Now I know it's not really a legend. You know what I mean? In prison they say if you get, when you go in the office, if you get a small envelope, if the envelope is really, really thin, if you see it and they hand you that, then you probably be coming home. You know what I mean? But if you get a thick envelope, that means it has all your stipulations, the reasons why they denied you and all of this stuff in there. So if you see a thick envelope, like...
kind of like understand what's getting ready to happen, you know? And I kind of saw someone at the desk, you know? So I'm like, oh, I didn't know which one was mine. You know what I mean? So I'm like, oh, man. So then I sat down.
And then the lady, she said, she reached over and look, my envelope was super thin. I was like, wait a minute, this might be good right here. So I opened it. And at first, I really didn't know what I was reading. And she said, all right, go to the second page. And I went looking. I expected it to have old letters, like approved. Yeah.
So I was like, you know, so I just like was looking and all I saw was a date and I saw the date. So I looked at the date and I really couldn't believe what I was reading. I was like, how come it say 42924? And she was like, that's what it says. You made it. She was, you know, according to her, she didn't know what the result was, you know, but she said, well, that means you made it. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, really? So I was like, wow. I said, praise the creator.
And she said, yeah, I mean, you know, you made some good decisions, you know, so congratulations. What was that walk back to your unit like? Just talking about it is like I got a little jump, you know, butterfly, you know, it was the feeling was just so liberating. Like, you know, I was able to walk and look at, you know, in fish care, you can look at the highway when you're walking by and it's just, it was like, wow, you know what I mean? But the funny thing about jail is
Unless you're walking out the gate, you're still like, I'm still in jail, you know? The only thing that was going through my mind was like, I still have to wait 25 more days, you know what I'm saying? So I'm like, okay. The part that then became a little sticky, and this is where corrections and government officials can be a little cavalier about time, because they had the time, the release date wrong. Technically, Travelle was eligible for immediate release, but that's not what the paperwork said.
And to try and get someone to pay attention because their first response is, hey, the guy got paroled. Good enough. This is great. He's going home in a couple weeks. Everything is good. What do you need us to look into? So it wasn't done yet. You saw that and said, okay, well, now we have to fix this. It's not, you know, it's from my perspective, and this is as an outsider looking in, it's not done until you walk out the gate.
And I tell family members, you can't, don't exhale completely. Clemency is beautiful. Celebrate. But we're not there yet. The parole board, the interview, it looks like it went well. Not there. And even when you get the letter saying you're going home, until you walk out, until you walk out. Yeah, basically. Then you can exhale. Then you can fully celebrate.
you know that day everybody that went to the parole board you know i saw them we were all going they all called us all at the same time so people were you know coming from wherever they were coming from but you saw them with their papers in their hands some of them were looking sad some of them were you know you could tell that they made it you know what i mean so for me when i got back you know i was i was i was overjoyed you know what i mean but then so when i got back steve my daughter and my wife the first three people i emailed boom
emailed them sent it out and I called my mother and I said and she told me she said look if you get paroled don't call me and say you know get this long drawn out thing and just try to you know look my god you know she said say it quickly like just call me and just say I'm coming home you know what I mean so I was when I called her that's exactly what I did you know
I said, "Ma," she picked the phone up and she knew something was up because I don't usually call her before 11:30. And this was like, it was about 9:30-ish, so I called her. And she said, "What's going on?" I said, "Ma." And I was getting ready to draw it out too. And then I was like, "Oh, I remember what she said." I said, "I'm coming home." And she just was like, "Oh," she just screamed so loud. I was like, "Ah, man." We just laughed and just, it was just a joyous occasion, man. - We'll be right back.
Everything was lined up for Travell's release on April 29th. You know, I'm like, OK, I'm mentally preparing for a whole month. I'm like, OK, I got a little time to get myself together and stuff like that. April 2nd, I'll never forget in the morning, they called me and said, they want you to come down to the office and sign out. I was like, sign out?
I said, I don't go home for another, like, almost 30 days. You know what I mean? It was April 2nd. I go home in 27 days. So I'm like, I said, sir, why are you calling me so early to sign out? I'm not going home until the 29th. So he says, oh, no, you're going home April 4th. You're going home on Tuesday or Thursday. I was like, and it was Tuesday. I said, sir, you serious right now? I'm going home two days from now? He was like, yeah. The mistake that had been made with his release date had been fixed.
I mean, that's why things happen so fast, is when they finally realized it, they said, okay, wait a minute, he's going home Thursday. Oh, I never really knew what happened. Yeah. Who was there when you walked out of the gate? My mother. My mother was there. My ex-wife. My sons. My aunt. A friend of mine that drove her up there. My brother. What was that drive up to Fishkill like? Before he even came out, what were you all talking about? We were like friends.
A kid the day before Christmas. Like, it was so, just such excitement. Travelle's brother, Karan. That's all we could talk about. Like, we would stop talking about it for 30 minutes to try to change the subject, but would somehow get right back to the joy of knowing that he would be home soon, you know? And what was it like to be able to be with your brother today?
Right? Not in a visiting room. Not anyone monitoring what you were saying or what you should or shouldn't do. It's the best feeling in the world. You know? Like, we're...
We're right now in the process of, you know, building a relationship as two grown men, you know, with kids. And, you know, I was a teenager when he went away. And, you know, he was going through everything that he was going through. So we, you know, wasn't as close back then. So now that, you know, we're both, you know, free and grown and able to just, you know, build a relationship.
a new relationship and it means the world. Did it feel surreal driving away? Yes. Yes, it felt like, you know, because I had drove down that same road plenty of times, like going to a trip or going to medical trips, you know what I mean? That's the only time we really leave the facility, you know what I mean? So, you know, the ride down that same road, like, and knowing I'm not coming back,
Knowing that I don't have to come back that day, stuff like that, it was definitely surreal. Steve, what is it like knowing that Travell is out now, home? Well, Travell, I mentioned this to him, there's a group called the Clemency Collective, which is 22 people who receive clemency. And there's a planned meeting to kind of welcome the newest member of the collective, which makes everybody pretty excited. But the other part of it is,
And this is not to put a burden, I'm saying this with Travell right here, but to the extent that it fits within his life to be sort of a spokesperson when the time comes for clemency, for what it meant for him, for what it means for others. I'll say this other part too. When he got clemency, word spread so fast. And I don't mean just, I mean everywhere actually, but in the legal community, people knew about it. The governor's office obviously knew that he got parole. So it sent a message.
You know, because he's known to people, right? And so him getting clemency, him making parole, it reverberates. My hope is it opens the door a little bit for others. Is it, have these past four weeks been what you expected them to be? Been what you thought about they would be when, you know, two years ago or three years ago, you're thinking if there's a day when I'm out. Has it lived up to what you thought it would be? Yes, I could say yes. I'm not, I'm not going to.
I really didn't think about going home a lot, you know what I mean? Because that's just not healthy to do when you're in there because you start thinking and you start getting anxious. So I tried to just, from time to time, coming home did cross my mind, you know what I mean? It was just a happy feeling of like, wow, maybe one day this will be over, you know?
So for me to come home, it's that feeling manifested, you know. So I feel the joy that I thought I would feel, you know. When I first came home, you know, it's definitely a difference. You notice that, you know, wow, you know, I'm able to, you know, do certain things, certain liberties are restored. But, you know, it's kind of like riding a bike. Like you really think, you know, you never really forget how it is to just be able to just move, you know.
What was it like to be with your sons and daughter? I mean, what, you know, you talked about that when, you know, being out with them. And have you gotten to spend a lot of time with them since? I mean, I've got to spend not as much time as I would like, you know, but...
Like, I would like to, like, take a trip with them and, like, go somewhere, you know, be able to relax and, you know, wake up and be with them again, you know, things like that. But, you know, with the curfew that I have in the place where I'm staying, it's not, you know, that's not really possible right now. You know, I still got to come home every night. I mean, come back to that place every night. So I haven't had a chance to really, like, you know, spend nights with them and stuff like that.
When that trip does happen, where do you want to take everyone? I don't know. I would like to go with my kids. I would like to take them to somewhere fun. I'm trying to get away from saying Disney World. Are they too old for Disney World now? Nah, nobody's ever too old for Disney World. I'm probably going to something like that. You know what I mean? I don't want to take them to something like that. I also want to...
Just experience things with them, you know, experience seeing different things. It doesn't have to be super exciting or anything. Just, you know, maybe just seeing, you know, a certain region or, you know, something like that. At his parole hearing last month, Travelle submitted a personal statement. In it, he wrote, By no means do I believe that I'm excused for taking Mr. Henkel's life. What I expect of myself is to be aware of the second chance at life I have been given—
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