Serial S02 - Ep. 9: Trade Secrets
47:43 Share

This podcast is supported by the capital one quick super card, earn unlimited one point five percent cash back on every purchase everywhere, plus there is no limit the amount of cash back you can earn and rewards don't expire for the life of the account. It's that simple. The capital one quick over card, what's in your wallet? Terms apply, see capital one not come for details.

How do you, how do you manipulate an entire country to get a an enlisted soldier home previously on serial? Like how can I get in afghanistan? Or how can I get into pack and I get my back at my passport? Ard are a greater reaux race, is telling the families just shut up.

And are the pakistani an armed forces?

Think I can get that done for you. But he really likes johnie Walker black .

label you. The taliban is waiting for all the prisoners, and all of the prisoners in all the muslim around the world they release.

From this american life in W B E E, chicago, its cereal, one story told week by week. I'm sarana. May thirty first twenty fourteen, the debo gets picked up by special Operations team in afghanistan. He's quickly pulled onto a helicopter, leaving the ground like that with space suddenly all around him.

After five years of being locked in rooms, he said he was like crossing in a bss when they landed at a nearby base bow wanted to communicate with these guys who'd rescued him, but he couldn't talk yet. He hadn't spoken sentences, much less had a conversation in so long. He says that he could think of the words, but he couldn't make them come out of his head.

What I ended up doing with something for something right on. And first thing I have them was if there are special forces. And then when I told me, their special forces immediately went into, giving them into and names, and then they got me onto the plane.

After a few minutes, you know, the person closed on me that that the a certain plants, and to me on the plane with the rest of the team, and they got me to background. And that was the last I saw him. I did mention they like, you know, wanted to say thank you and they just the other people around you at the time, you know, they said, okay, will pass and we've got to get going because we've got to get you on the pain.

We ve got to get you some food in you and all that. I didn't want to. I didn't want to bother those guys because I could understand you. I just stand a lot of other things to do.

At that moment, a military transport plane was standing by a guantanamo bay, waiting to take five taliban guys to cutter five years worth of mashing nations high hopes and false start and politicking and cigaret meetings had gone into getting boat onto that helicopter and the five taliban prisoners onto a sea. seventeen. The response to this trade back home in the U.

S. Varied, but probably the loudest response was, I can't believe we just did that. We negotiated with terrorists to release some terrorists, to get back a deserter and IT. Seems people also had questions in afghanistan.

Wait, what was all of this about? Did they really just give up five leaders of the tall born for one american soldier that's hyder acbar? He grew up in the U.

S. But his afghan and allies in carbo. His father was governor of koor province.

Hyder is a friend of this american life. He's done some stories for us. Hider was in afghanistan when the trade happened, and he remembers the talk.

But this belief, this guy was definitely is a general. Remember these conversations? Is this guy a general? No, he's just a soldier. They're going to lack of five lears. There must be something greater at play here.

And there was supposed to be something much greater at play here, something as big and grand as a plan to end the war. So what happened? How did this become the solution to getting bow home? In two thousand nine, the year about was captured, the warn afghanistan was going very badly for U.

S. troops. And a struggle was going on inside the obama administration about what to do, about IT. The idea the president settled on was fully resourced counter insurgency peace talks, meaning talking directly to the taliban about ending the war that was not part of the plan, not yet.

The person who argued the most forcefully for that to change, who said we should start talking to the taliban now with a diplomat name, Richard holberg hole broke, had just been appointed as rap special representative for afghanistan and pakistan. Basically, secretary state Harry clinton had hired him to help in the war hole work with this legendary negotiator. A huge tanasul, ous talent and also a huge personality in her memory about being secretary stayed.

Clinton tells a story about her relentlessly. He was, I once followed her into a ladies room in pakistan so he could finish making his point. He rubs some people in the administration the wrong way, including obama himself. But hobert didn't stop lobbying for a political solution to the war.

Well, Richard did not think that there was a military solution to the war in afghanistan.

That's cuti marton, a journalist and writer. SHE was also married to Richard hold broke.

who died in twenty ten. He did not think that you could just muscle your way to a solution. And you know, general patrice les felt that doubling down on the tally button was the way to go. Richards would have ten second conversations with portrays and and the the just of that was, no, this is not the time for diplomacy and he deeply a resented patrice, who was his friend, referring to him repeatedly as his wingman. Richard would grumble to me since wended the diplomat s had become the military is winging man cot says he .

was in a personal slide to hole road. He didn't care about that. IT was the principle.

He thought the military had too much sway that he was dominating political strategy in these wars. Bali oser also worked a whole work in the astrop office. There is a special adviser. He's middle east scholar balan osa says in holBrooks view, the whole military verses diplomacy debate was out of wax. In other words, IT was general patrice who should be hold rook swingman.

Handmade military is a handmade den to diplomacy. And that baLance has been lost during the bushes and and and that I I I think he believed that that was fundamentally wrong and would fend and would get amErica into greater trouble. So holBrooks view is that you use the military to get that the taliban to the table. But the goal is to get them to sign a document, an agreement.

Meanwhile, hook is being sideline. This whole time, people in the administration are trying to get him fired. In fact, though, hilary clinton protected them, to make matters worse, holberg had a crummy relationship with hammed cars.

I cars, I thought holberg could undermine them in the afghan presidential elections, the summer of two thousand nine. And cars, I wasn't entirely wrong about that. So all around, hobert isn't so popular, and neither is the notion of the U.

S. Sitting down with the enemy, the taliban. But IT seems the enemy was interested in talking to us.

Diplomats in germany had been meeting with a thirty something afghan guy who was close to muller omar, the taliban leader. His name was thaa aga back in washington. They didn't say his name out loud though. These, the code name, eric hallberg.

was a baseball fan. Yes, I was a very familiar name. Or at my.

a meeting with the era would be risky. You don't know the guys for real whether you're being played either side knows, in fact, but harper wanted to try IT. He took A A hillery clinton who was skeptical, but gave the go ahead for a first face to face meeting between the taliban in the united states government.

IT was to be just outside munich right after thanksgiving twenty ten. And IT was to be secret. The taliban insisted be secret, or they walk.

Pakistan didn't know. The british didn't know few people in the U. S. government. New few people in the taliban knew. They met in a small village in a safe house run by german intelligence.

Although tia baga had worn western suits in his earlier meetings with the germans, at this meeting, he wore traditional afghan clothes, a White tonic tibco opened by reading a formal propaganda istc statement. He knew the americans wouldn't like. The americans don't have a set agenda.

They're mostly there to listen. But while they weren't talking terms, the us. Did have some non negotiable les.

We wanted the taliban to stop fighting, break with alkali and support the afghan constitution, including rights in there for women and girls. That was especially important to hillery clinton. The big goal was to get the taliban to start talking to the cars.

That government. The idea, as the state department put IT, was to get afghans talking to other afghans about the future of afghanistan so we could get out of the room. The taliban wanted a few things, too.

They wanted the us. To distinguish between them and alka take their names off A U. N.

Sanctions list of terrorists. They wanted a political office outside of pakistan. They wanted to in doha, cutter, and they wanted their prisoners back.

And that's where boat comes in. By that time, the handies had been holding him for almost a year and a half. Now at this meeting, his fate becomes tied to the fate of the peace process in afghanistan.

If the U. S. Hands over some taliban prisoners they'll hand over the american soldier be part of water called confidence building measures that would pave the way for substantive peace talks.

The americans weren't allowed to call IT a prisoner exchange, by the way. They had to call IT a mutual release. So bow is part of the discussion, but he's not the point of these talks. He's not the crux of anything that's pretty clear when i've asked diplomats and state department officials about IT but was like a line item, an important line item, but a line item nonetheless.

I've heard and read a number of different accounts now about what the taliban initially asked for an exchange for both one source told me I was always five particular guys that get more the tell and wanted another source who was at the meeting told me that at first I was a simpler er demand for taliban prisoners held a gog room in afghanistan tai baga turned us down for an interview so I haven't been able to definitively pin this down in any case. When the muni e meeting was over, the americans, a contingent from the White house state department, they fly home, report back to their bosses, sums up it's on home work drives out to the airport to meet his guy. He's so eager to hear how he went.

And then just a couple of weeks later, hobert dies. He was at work when his air drop shirt. He was rush to the hospital surgery, but on december thirteen and twenty ten, he died.

Just a pause here for minute. A bunch of people I talked to for the story were sad about hobbs's death, not just for him, but for afghanistan. They had this feeling that maybe if hobo hadn't died when he did the talks with the taliban could worked out differently, that we wouldn't still be in this massive of a war. Here's balin.

Nsr hall book was the only, I think, statement at that time in the united states who was willing to take the risk of owning reconciliation.

Yes, that wasn't afraid of .

IT wasn't afraid of IT. He advocated that was a very, very unpopular and and risky uh, position and I don't think anybody else was willing to do IT after that nobody stood up and said, i'm now mr. reconciliation. I'm now the champion of this thing and the irony of IT was that, you know he was being so much effort was being put on marginalizing him uh h that that you know, when he actually died we realize you know how much was he actually Carrying and how important he .

was right after holbrook dies. That's when political reconciliation with the taliban officially becomes U. S. strategy. In february of two thousand and eleven, Hillary clinton gives a speech in honor of hole broke, actually, in which, for the first time in american official, speaks out loud in public about talking piece with the taliban. Still, many people in the government aren't happy about IT.

Now I know that reconciling with an adversary that can be as brutal as the taliban sounds just tasted even on imaginable, and diplomacy would be a lot easier if we only had to talk to our friends. But that is not how one makes peace. Here is the original vision.

After munich, over the next six months, everyone would agree to terms on the confidence building measures. The office would happen, the trade, including bow, would happen. And then the goal was by december two thousand and eleven, and an international conference planned in bonn, germany, cars I would be there, and the talks afghan to afghan would be underway.

Such an orderly vision, instead, what happens is fitful is the best way I can think of years of fits and starts for people in the diplomacy business. The pink ponging trajectory of these talks is probably familiar but to me, as I was trying to figure out what happened with bow and his connection to these meetings with the talian, I just had no idea. I would look like this and i'm not gona take you through every step because we'd be here all week, but I just want to point out some of the moments of like, if only because they really bring home how fraught and fragile diplomacy can be.

So after muni e, there's this brief moment of hopefulness, let's say, cars, I had created a high piece council in anticipation of ending peace talks. The U. S.

Had a couple more meetings with taaoa. And then stagnation. Nothing is signed.

Nothing is moving. Washington is wary. It's deering. Michael schinner was the s.

Rap for germany at the time. He'd helps set up the U. S. Taliban talks in the first place, and he says, after munich, IT was like the motor of the whole process, spattered.

be lost time, enormous, precious time afterwards, with every last month, the perspectives to get this situation healed becomes more difficult. You know, they took so damn long.

Taiba needed to show progress to his bosses. The time ban we're going to ani. In addition for taiba, it's no easy thing for him to get to these meetings in secret.

He worried, understandably, that his life might be in danger if he became public. He was talking to the U. S.

Factions inside the taliban didn't want peace talks, and no one had consulted pakistan about any of this. In pakistan had long wanted to be a player in any peace talks. Cars I was perpetrating worried that the U.

S. And pakistan were up to something behind his back. IT all had to stay quiet.

In two thousand and eleven, ambassage mark growth men replaced holbrook as s rap. Well, I was supposed to be secret. IT would have been Better if I had been quiet.

But as as I know, you know, from doing your research, people just kind of talk and talk and they did. We suffered a lot of leaks from washington and also and also from cobo. And why? Well, because you know, he wasn't the most popular thing in the world to be doing the result.

In may two thousand and eleven, the washington post and their speaker in germany both reported that the talks were happening, and for the first time, they named Thomas a. The taliban walked away from the talks. Clinton rush to islamabad to smooth things over with pakistan.

Another state department official flooded doha to ask the cuttery to please, please ask the taliban to come back, which a few months later they did. But according to Michael schinner, the leaks meant the taliban now had to dig in on their demands to reassure their own people. They weren't selling .

out to the americans the Price for the continuation of the process got higher because the demands become higher. And if you would have acted earlier, much less would have been a to be paid.

Stanner didn't specify, but I believe he's talking about the gmo detainee's that the taliban now fixed on that demand. And that made things harder because getting prisoners out of gimmick prisoners, just as president obama, that's not easy. There are laws about IT.

You have to tell congress, you have to get the secretary of defense to sign off on IT. Someone in the esta. p. Office at the time told me when they discussed at meetings, the defense department just really, really, really oppose transfering.

Anybody out of guantanamo? Big picture, mark rosman schools with the same as holBrooks to create a stable afghanistan inside a stable region. And he had a plan, a series of international conferences in meetings, to get other countries to commit money and support to help, not only end the warn afghanistan, but sustained a peace.

He explained all of this to taiba when they finally met. And what were, what did he want? Like what? What became clear to you was like why he was there.

They wanted their prisoners out of bowsman says at one point they did try to offer tia bag of prisoners from background, but that was a no go. And he told the reporter David road that they try to offer up for different taliban guys from get more lesser figures who'd already been cleared for transfer. But that was also rejected.

The taliban wanted bees, five guys. At this point in the middle of two thousand eleven, there were seventeen afghan in guantanamo o all of them accused of being tied to the taliban or to terrorist groups. So why was thai arga asking for these five back and exchange for bell?

If you look at especially two of the biggest on the list guys name, lafoa l and o and I, what happened with them is actually a really interesting window into what was going on with the war right in the beginning, in two thousand. One because, and this is a surprise to me at that time, late two thousand, one, some taliban commanders surrendered. So there is this opportunity, some people argue that we blew IT, that there was a big missed opportunity to get the taliban to stop fighting, that we could have swept in when they were weak, st contain them, made peace.

In other words, all the things we'd still be struggling to do. A decade and a half later, I talked to carlota goal about these guys fossil in nori carlota as a reporter for the new york times. And he arrived in afghanistan just a couple of weeks after the U.

S. Started bombing. The taliban regime was unraveling. And in the north, where kalaa was, hundreds of taliban and alkali fighters had just been trapped in the city of kondo's SHE read a newspaper story about what happened next, but never got published.

So much else was going on then in afghanistan. In retrospect, though, what he saw was a singular moment in the war. I talked to carlota over skype.

SHE was in her office and tunes. SHE was in north africa. Carrisford now. So the sound isn't great, but he told me the story of what he saw he says he was up north at this big mudford were general dustin also was dustin was this infamous commander who was fighting the taliban and the us. Was supporting him so dozens there at this ford .

and he he received delegation of taliban um who wanted to surrender and IT was amazing we with bunch of us reporters were waiting there all day and suddenly these of this convoy of pick ups arrived in sweeping into the um into this mud world thought um later night in the dark and they were you know I was full of they were all taliban they were you know manning these big guns on the back of the pics and they swept in they're pretty scary but actually they were coming to the talk to to the talk going to surrender to dost and mola fossil was their leader so mulai .

l was there and noise and ni was with him and these were two of the guys that a good decade later the taliban would ask us to release an exchange for bow carlota says noise and had a reputation as someone you could reason with he was a quiet guy than fossil a provincial governor but fossil carli said he was .

one of the most feared men in the land was um corporation commander who had a string of massages to his name and people out there in the north terrifying these guys and and he you know yeah mean people would be telling me all week because i'd been there week or so um people are saying this is the man who who would shot these fingers up people's north strokes and to push their head back and then slit their throat he was he was really a uh I would say he was accused of many war crimes and he was known to committed mind because of a lot of the northern tried as the taliban sought to and here is ma.

fossil and ni and others they're surrendering. They head into this meeting with dust on there are americans in the room too CIA.

Probably a lot is waiting outside, and they took hours, and eventually they call us in midnight, the press and mother, father was, that is very short. T grumpy looking doctor made him basically say, on camera in the fight. He didn't actually think, say the words no, but he was, he said we will give up our weapons and and the fighting so was IT was an incredible moment to see. And not many of us were up there and not much of IT got the papers that time but IT was the only public surrender of um the taliban forces.

Kerala says in the days that followed, bozzle delivered hundreds of his fighters, taliban and also foreign fighters, and pakistani came streaming in and handed over their weapons. Apparently the understanding was that puzzles fighters would be allowed safe passage back to where they came from, but IT didn't happen. Instead, many of them got killed at a now infamous ous prison uprising, which lasted for days.

Hundreds more got packed up in container trucks and is fixed at the whole other brisley chain of events. As for fossil and nori, dustin kept t. Them under house arrest for a while. IT is own rather fancy guest house, but eventually he gave them up to .

the americans. What we left later was they, they were taken to one of the worship in the gulf, I think, as quite a few prisons were at that time. And then they later, and did not in going on them.

they were, in fact, in that group of first arrivals at one animal on january eleven, two thousand, two. You've seen the pictures from that day, men on their knees and jump suits, Spark wire. As for the other guy's anti bag s list, they all seem to have been in contact with, if not CoOperating with, either the U.

S. Or the cars I government when they were arrested and sent to guantanamo. One was the taliban's deputy intelligence chief, who was at a meeting with C.

I. A agents, when he was grabbed and grow up in a carpet, Carried away like that in broad daylight. Another was the former taliban interior minister who'd been in contact with cars, eye at a job.

And one was meaning in amErica at the airport when he got arrested. So those are the five. Actually, there was one other guy that tell bin one of back, but he died at wantonness o.

He had a heart attack after exercising on an elliptical in early two thousand eleven. If the taliban could get these guys out of gmo, IT would be symbolic in a bunch of ways. First off, it's a hugely morale boosting message to their own fighters.

Look at the lengths will go to get our prisoners out. More than that is a huge public relations Victory. The united states at the highest levels would be recognizing them, the taliban, as a legitimate organization, not treating them as a rag tag band of terrorists.

And finally, to them, it's a Victory for their understanding of justice in this war. Since most of these guys say they weren't exactly fighting with americans when they were captured in the first place. Mola fazl himself explains this line of thinking in his military tribunal at guantanamo.

He tells the tribunal about the meeting with jostle. The reporters quote, there were Cameron and journalists there. He meaning those.

He says, there's twenty five year war between person to person, village by village, city by city, province by province, and try against tribe. If you think this is crime, then every single person in afghanistan should be in prison or bring them here. I never ever fought against the new government.

I never fought against america, and I didn't do anything wrong against them. And why am I an enemy combatant? And quote, IT does seem true that fossil was a brutal fighter, a powerful commander and possibly award criminal.

But you can argue the same is true of general doesn. Dottin has also been accused of war crimes. He's now first vice president of afghanistan, our ally.

And one last thing on this, in two thousand, one hammad cars, I had come to an agreement with taliban commanders in the south. The taliban would hands over control of four provinces peacefully, and in return they get amnesty. But the U.

S. Said, no, you can do that, wouldn't let that happen. Instead, we proclaimed by a secretary of defense, Donald failed that because the taliban, harvard of summer bladon, we would be treating them the same way we treated international terrorists.

We do not give amnesty to terrorists. We do not negotiate with terrorists. We hunt them down.

The talks with the taliban suffered so many setbacks over the years, it's hard to even contain them all in my head, so many factors were in play. In so many different countries, some of the setbacks were pointed and intentional. The league, for instance, some setbacks were immutable table, a simple case of bad timing.

And some setbacks were so human, just old fashion screwups. The most obvious assault on the talks came in september of two dozen eleven. A guy came to the door, a former afghan president from hunan robani, Robin.

I was heading afghanistan's high peace council. The guy said he had a message from the taliban and blew up Robina's house. Robinia was killed, as were four others from the council.

Robot y's assistant massie stanzi was badly injured. No one took responsibility for the attack, but many people suspected pakistan was behind a mark, rosman says. Losing the help of those guys, and especially having stanic eyes out of commission for so many months was terrible.

We talk about afghan, talking other afghan, about the future afghanistan. They were the afghans. Yeah, they would have been doing this work.

And whoever did this IT was a very IT was a very strategic move. The robi assassination happened a couple months before the big international meeting in ban, set for december two thousand eleven. The one that a year earlier had been something of a finish line.

Now IT felt like they were back to square one, and then a year and a half later, a screw up with some very bad results. Mid twenty thirteen, boo had been in captivity for four years. By then, after various armed twistings in washington and in kabul and in doha, IT looks as if they really might be able to crank up the talks again.

Things have shifted some instead of the prisoner exchange first they're going to do in office. The taliban wanted in office in doha as a home base for political talks. IT would show they were legitimate political actors. The office had to become issue .

number one for them. And carzo was naturally cautious about this.

There's a new esta p by now. Ambassage James dobbins, he's working with cars, eye and with cutter, who's the inner media cautious is probably an understatement for carsey on this thing. He doesn't trust us.

He doesn't trust our stated objectives in afghanistan or ferial. He's worried, were trying to cut him out of the talks, make a side deal with pakistan. Maybe he obviously doesn't trust pakistan.

He thinks maybe this whole office deal is a pakistani orchestrated plot to get recognition for the talian. His worried cotton is essentially letting the taliban set up a shadow government with this doha office. So it's shaky to say the least.

Carse co Operation here, the united states is trying to make sure everyone abides by the ground rules, including the detail that the taliban cannot throw around the word's islamic emerge in connection with this office. Very important. They have to call IT something .

like the political office of the taliban movement, not as a the representation of the islamic emerge, which was what they called their government. So they shouldn't present themselves in effect as an alternative government of afghanistan.

So everyones agreeing to the sort of ground role.

The assumption was that a in june, the office would open and we would begin discussions and the detainee exchange would be most likely the first order of business.

meaning the exchange for bow would be the first order of business. So june th, the office opens. It's this new, pretty elaborate multi story building with a wall around IT. There's an opening ceremony. Back in the U. S, the time difference means that something like three or four in the morning in washington, jeff eggs, who is in afghanistan and pakistan, director for the national security council, the staff had been up all night waiting for the opening on TV.

The first indication that there was a problem was the flag.

the flag of the islamic emirate. They also had a sign outside the building that said islamic emirate john kerry was secretary of state by then. Within minutes, he calls the admire of cutter.

Remember, we're not communicating directly with the taliban at this point. It's all through the katari ies. So Carry personably ly impresses on the empire.

It's not success posed to say islamic emerge. The one word you can have on that flag, on that building is a merit. We are upset.

It's not what we agreed and it's going to make cars. I flip as lid is exactly what he feared. Carney, Robin worked in the israel office, then is an expert on afghanistan and pakistan.

He had been heard by holbrook. He was in the air when this happened, flying to doha from dubai. So I got off the plane and I see my blackberry.

Oh my god, what's happening? So I went, I went directly to the embassy. The flag is lowered at a site pretty fast, but the offending sign is still on the outside of the building, is there all day.

On day two is still up. Baring decides to go there to try to find someone to take down the sign. The embassy is shown on cars.

He gets a ride in some guy's private car. They arrive at the taliban office building. They're surrounded by armed cattaro security, the whole thing, for a while, until they can figure out who barney is, what he wants. But he is not leaving, until someone shows up with some tools, basically where you stay there, yes, and watch them take IT down. And then I took a .

photograph of the wall without the sign, and we failed IT to the U. S. Empathy in cob only showed the president.

But by that time I was too late here's jeff eggs .

that all that took was know the optics of that one flag being thrown in there um to really derail um at that point years of effort carbons and secretary kerry flighted doha to .

find out if there's any way to salvage the situation and to find out why IT happened but dbs learned is that IT seemed to be a genuine misunderstanding. The taliban thought I was fine for them to call themselves whatever .

they want IT the katari said that in discussions that IT occurred in two thousand twelve or eleven the us. And said, we don't care what you call yourselves. You just have to understand we won't call you that now I don't believe any us official said that um but the guitar AI is believed IT um and as I say I think I think IT was the taliban warn trying to demonstrate bad faith they genuinely believed what they were doing would be unexceptionable and where I think surprised by the reaction IT all could .

have been avoided as the thing damon says the arrangement had a whiff of amateur ness IT wasn't even being handled formally by the katari I foreign ministry. They have this kind of be team on IT barne y. Rubin says the office agreement kept changing to accommodate everyone's concerns, but that there was never a final document. Everyone signed off on line by line anyway. Now the taliban had lost face .

they felt at once. They had been, in effect, humiliated by having to take down their flag and their sign that they couldn't go forward with the talks.

So peace talks ground to a halt, but was staying captivity for another year.

The aliva like simple state power ward.

people do want to deal or not sami use outside the afghan reporter, sami interviewed someone high up in the taliman for us. We agreed not to say who IT is. This guy told sami, after four years for a half years of holding bow, they were getting fatigue cut.

That office, I believe, is while getting too much long. They made a contact, or two thousand, or and then IT was thirteen. Still nothing was coming as a result. You know, american is just quite slow and responding and they told him that we have to bring everything in the knowing of of, but is to obama and is not like a easy case. So I understand that's why there was like communication while getting longer and longer.

In two thousand and thirteen, the year before boo was released, the taliban had a lot going on. We wouldn't IT for a couple of years, but mum r, the taliban leader, had actually died. In spring of twenty thirteen, mula sangean, who was in charge of keeping bow for most of his time as a prisoner, was killed in a drone strike in september of twenty thirteen. Sami says he imagined the pakistani's were also pushing the taliban to settle this prisoner deal because they were getting pressure from the americans about IT. So there were all those reasons.

and I would see the pakistani army Operation.

the pakistani I army was gearing up to launch attacks in waziristan against the pakistani taliban. And so people there were on notice, including the hatton's who are holding bow. You might want to to get out there before you get killed.

But obviously, you know, the hagan's I people was told that we are going to do Operation so the area will be totally abandoned for all kind of militants except their fighting. So I can move uh, some of them move to appanage stan. And they know in a aniston they could couldn't hide him because the media has access to anywhere they want.

Yeah, yeah. Early in twenty fourteen, the taliban finally let the americans know they're ready to make a deal, but not on a peace plan. Instead, they tell us, if you just want to to swap for your prisoner, we're ready.

Bow is now cut loose from the broader talks about reconciliation. He's free floating, and it's up to us whether to grab them ultimately be the White house would have to make the call. Jeff eggs was working at the White house as a special system to the president for national security affairs. Jeff says they took stock of the situation.

And at around the same time, there was you some sense that we were we were only going to lose opportunities to recover burg. All the more the resources, the western and coalition resources in afghanistan declined.

In other words, we're about to start withdrawing our troops, transitioning out there. So this isn't gonna get any easier to get him back. The united states had asked for a proof of life video of bow in in january.

He arrived. Haven't seen IT, but i've talked to a few people who have, and they said bow looked to be in bad shape as movements were strange. His speech was incoherent.

People told me he was alarming. Egr says the White house wasn't weighing any other options for Better, for worse. And they worried, but wasn't gonna in captivity and the U. S. Was getting out of afghanistan.

IT was the IT was the combination of those factors that gave rise to the idea that you could you could salvage those two line items.

The two line items being, we get bow back, they get the five guantanamo prisoners back.

Those two line items in the original of confidence building plan for for city's ing the political process as a stand alone pair. And but at .

what once you hit twenty fourteen, there is no broader agreement. It's just it's just the trade, right? Well, I wouldn't .

put IT that way. I would say that the broader agreement was sitting up on a shelf gathering dust.

Something was Better than nothing. And maybe, maybe one day someone would take down the rest of the big beautiful agreement to make peace and dust IT off. And they're be two fewer .

line items to argue about.

During those last months before bow was released, both says the taliban started to treat him Better. They fed him Better more regularly. He got a little real thing so he could gain some strength.

He'd already got ten, a toothbrush, which he said he'd asked for during a video taping, but now they gave him some science books he had also asked for. He said they gave him college level physics and chemistry books. U.

S. Officials, including secretary of defense truck ele, start making trips back and forth to cutter to iron out the deal we're not negotiating with taboo anymore, or anyone else from the taliban about IT directly. These aren't talks, the transaction and the cataracts are the brokers.

We dropped an agreement with the guitar's about how they'd monitor the five taliban who is supposed stay in cutter for a year. There's this video i've watched a few times on youtube for may twenty six, twenty fourteen, memorial day, chicago is visiting early to national cemetery. A vietnam war veteran, an activist for P O W M I. A cases, confronts hagon about bow.

We're getting out of afghanistan. We need to get him home. We know he's a live.

He says, please, sir, you've gotta bring him home. Hague stands there patiently. Awkward dly in the sun, hearing the guy out.

I can't say anything except we're doing everything we possibly can, and we are. The next day, work comes back from the D O, D legal council. The guy haggle had travelled to cutter with.

He says we have a deal, meaning the taliban holding bow are good to go. Everything about this transfer was top secret. If I got out, they worried IT could fall apart.

Somebody could get killed on mate twenty nine th, a delegation of five people from cutters comes to go on tonio to escorts the taliban guys back to doha. The catalyst talked to each of the taliban guys, and then they wait. The deal was that the U.

S. Wouldn't release them until boat was in U. S. custody. But the taliban holding boat are taking much longer than anybody anticipated. Eight hours later, they realized this is not happening.

They have to house the cuttery in a nearby nail hotel. The taliban guys they put in a kind of holding sell near the airport. This was not supposed to happen.

Carol rosenberger, reporter from the miami herald, have been looking out for this taliban trade for years. Actually, caro's been covering guantanamo since the day IT opened. She'd watched three of these taliban guys arrive there on day one.

Carol was down at guantanamo at the end of may, and he said he noticed these big planes to see seventeenth across the water from where he was. You can just make them out, squinting across the bay, seeing, you know, the airframes of, see, seventeenth on the airstrip. And like, why does that leave? Right, right, right? They don't park them here.

Another day goes by. The planes are still sitting there. Now it's made thirty of carles asking people debase what is going on with these planes.

They're saying stuff like c seventeenth. What's see seventeen? S, I don't see any c seventeenth, which to me confirms it's probably the bird doll trade.

Finally, the morning of saturday, may thirty first, the us. Gets word, bow is safe. The plane leaves for doha on IT are the katari ies, the taliban prisoners in U.

S. Security personnel, according to a progressive investigation when they were planning to transfer, a defense department official said he thought the U. S. Security would be a good idea because they were concerned about, quote, one of the nuckles heads trying something unquote. Jim dobin said to me about the trade, IT wasn't a disaster and IT wasn't a really achievement.

IT was a successful and necessary Operation, but IT wasn't going to end the war, which IT courses disappointing and also makes this deal hard to assess. You can easily say the taliban really got a lot of bang for their buck on this one. If you look back at the things they want IT at that first unique meeting in twenty ten, well, check, check.

They got some of their names of the U. N. Sanctions list, their office isn't official, but there is that building in doha. And they got their prisoners back from git mono less.

And all they gave up was bow, the guy they plan to give up all along, the guy they were tired of holding. All in all, a tidy Victory. On the other hand, we had to get bow back.

somehow. Nothing else had worked, and there was no way. The united states government was gonna let an american soldier dying captivity and other countries trade all the time.

Israel say bell trade prisoners, even for the remains of one of their soldiers, and there are now five fewer prisoners at guantanamo. O, president obama would like to close guanta nomo. When I was taking a Carol rosenberg, one of the things he pointed out was at these five taliban guys hadn't had intel value for a long time.

Some of bladon was already dead. And also, as prisoners, they didn't do any of the things you sometimes hear about from get more officials. They weren't hunger strike me, or gathering up their battery fluid and cups and flinging IT at the guards, with the exception of one that I didn't even chAllenge their detention in federal court.

Has so many other detainees have these guys didn't know that they SAT there in communal confinement, following the directions, praying when there was prayer time, eating when I was food time, sitting there sort of, you know, I don't want say like boot, but you know, sitting there following the rules and not being a problem, they would call them here highly compliant and to me that says, like, that's like A P O W right there. They're there thinking, i'm a prisoner of this war and when the politics change of the war ends, i'm going to get out of here. Good afternoon, everybody.

This morning, I called bob and Jenny berg dolt and told them that after nearly five years in captivity, their sun bow is coming home the day the trade. Right after lunch, obama appeared in the rose garden along with ghost parents. He thanked the service members who recovered bow.

He noted that the united states is committed to winding down this war and to closing gmo, and he gave a shout out to the earth while peace talks going forward, the united states continue to support in afghani process of reconciliation, which could help secure a harder piece within a sorer gn and unified afghanistan. Babb and Jenny bergdoll had been reinsured many times over the years by many people, some very higher people in the military and at the pentagon, that if boo came home, he wouldn't face serious charges. The time with the taliban would be punishment enough, but they probably didn't need to consult a military layer. So the birdhouse thought that day in the rose garden that IT was over, mission accomplished, not quite next time on cereal.

Serials, produced by Julie snatch, dana chivas and me in partnership with mark boal, Megan ellison, huggin grand, Jessica whisper, g page one and entrepreneur hour glasses are editorial advisor producing help this week from JoNathan man hear when any danger field as our digital editor. Research by Kevin garnett checking by Michelle haris copy editing Emily cannon is our line producer.

Our music is composed by nick thorburn, fitz mires and mark phillips. The show is mixed by cable in ski, Christian Taylor, our community editor, other serial staff, sleeper garson and Kimberly henderson. Special thanks this week to David holbrook and H.

B. O. Christopher d. Chivas, Bruce Mason reporter, Christine a. Lam of the sunday times, David road arish, peo and biz ebb. We learned about carlota al story from her book the wrong enemy amErica in afghanistan and the tape of chuck ago at orleton comes from Patrick jay hues got his website, Patrick jay hues dot org and our website serial podcast at org, where this week we have a timeline of the afghanistan peace process showing where both story fits in that serial podcast at work. Stay tuned for a preview of our next episode.

But first, what is the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a cyst? Al ball, until then, over forty thousand business ses have future proof.

Their O O O D P bringing counting financial management, inventory, hr into one fluid platform with real time insights and forecasting, are able to appear into the future and seized new opportunities. Dowd, the cfs guide to A I and machine learning for free at next. Sweet com flash N Y T.

That's next. We dot com slash N Y T. This part is supported by ma, a modern design company, crafting simple elevated furniture from premium ecofriendly materials designed to enrich your space.

Duas core collection, the classes bed next stressor and pillar bookshelf combines japanese joining with thoughtful design for timeless style and lasting quality. Assembly is quick and easy taking despite vish minutes and no tools required to explore the full collection and get one hundred dollars off your first bed. Had a thuma dot co.

That's T H U M A dot C O serials a production of this american life and W B E Z chicago. What present obama did was IT took a lot of a lot of unrest and a fortitude to make that decision. We want to say yes, coming up on the next epo de of cereal.

He served the united states with honor and distinction. And then he, shit is in your face, final bike, or call me and he said sunday, we need to have a talk about this I said, OK. I haven't seen from you or any other journalist a real dig into how the army came to that conclusion.