Serial S03 - Ep. 7: The Snowball Effect
53:20 Share

This forecast is supported by U. S. bank. At U. S. Bank, when they say they're in IT with you, they mean IT.

Not just for the good stuff, that gray and openings and celebrations, although those are pretty great, but for all the hard work that took to get there, because together they're proving day in and day out that there is nothing as powerful as the power of us. Visit U. S.

Bank tok. Com to get started today. Equal housing lender member F. I. C.

Listen, listen, listen, listen. When I was IT put me how is right this previously .

on cereal?

Deterrence and how to fix communities and all that type of I try I try not think of that. That way I can prove you guilty.

will give you missed the meter.

You may get a big judgment, but it's just going to go to the stack over here and that aren't even pay.

Where I didn't not say that he felt along.

From this american life and W B E Z, chicago is cereal one course told week by week. I'm .

saracenic.

After the police surprised, arrested juicy nickson at the east clean courthouse, held them in jail for a few days, he set up a call with his lawyer, Scott Randy.

they. Taught through the .

new most charges Jessie picked up and also about whether Jessie feuding with the east clavet police might lead to a lawsuit scot rampy pays around his clotted office while Jessie filled them in explaining the arrest of the block party on the fourth july. How do we felt like the police asm unfairly?

I. Was shoulder .

got injured? How they left him at the hospital with five tickets? How when he showed up in court to deal with those tickets, the police arrested him again and he says, the room in a rocker room with no bathroom for two days.

I was kicking on the door, back on door, and, you know, uh, when can I use the bathroom? Can I use the bathroom? Can I use the bathroom when a manual?

And I heard Jessie had been locked in that same room where the east clavell police had put Arnold black with his twenty two million dollar verdict without, well, there's Jessie's lawsuit right there. Now how could that not be a giant settlement waiting to happen? But Scott msy wasn't that interested in the holding cell story, didn't seem outraged by IT.

He thought that might be hard to prove. Instead, he wanted to hear more about the other thing in the fourth of july. From jersey's description, IT did sound like maybe the police had targeted him. Maybe that could lead to a civil action.

Okay, let me, let me ask couple of questions. The thing on and on the fourth, what proof do we have that that happened? I have several video, several video, and they have video. Then you, then also you have video from people's cameras, and probably somebody camps is you talking about, definitely get a Scott m.

He tells Jessie to gather video evidence, fine witnesses, seventy ten people would be good, he says, preferably people without criminal records. And then he'll assess the potential for lawsuit.

Second, you, you have on your family have videos. This time past, IT became obvious.

Scott empty, wasn't gonna ile a new lawsuit? Jessie didn't produce the evidence scotland he had asked for, but also Jessie, as a client, was proving a slippery bet. His legal troubles seem to blow them a new every couple months, not just in his cleveland and but in other municipalities.

Jessie told the manual about the case he was especially worried about in uclaf de said the cops, they had pulled him over for no reason. He asked a manual to come to court with him so he could see for himself with Jessie was up against manual. Did he went with justice to a court date? And you could, here's a manual.

I went to ukraine on the day Jessie was supposed to go to trial on eight charges, all for one traffic storm, and have a few months back. Just is then girlfriend hy just give birth of their second sun, and the baby was premature. So very, both spending a lot of time at the hospital for test, and one day just brought at his brother's car so you could drive home and get cleaned up, and that you could please pull them over.

The start was about nothing really tinted windows on his own, a mister mune ticket. But Jessie didn't have a seat back on, and he was driving about the license on top of that as he his brother's cm was like a party crime scene, small amounts of weed, a scale and two open bottles of smell of ice. Hence the most mini judges and a case in front d.

Debra, the barren, same judge you might remember from aram senses case in episode free. We're gona talk more about on later on this episode. But right now I want to tell you what happened between Jessie and juda barren.

Since i'm starting twenty five minutes late this morning.

see nicer. The day was a mess from the beginning. Like for one, Jessie showed up late by the time you rush into the court room he was fluster and judge a baron was mad morning .

nine five this side and is turning over the here. And people have to .

be fair to judge a barren heritage had been gaverick months just already missed a couple cordage to be a Jesse, though he'd been dealing with the case against for his clever and tops who taken into the park. So this uc case dragged on. Last part, Jessie initially agree to take a plea, and then at the last second insisted on a trial which delayed things more.

That trial was supposed to happen today. And yep, word was, Jessie has changed his mind again. A couple days ago, a lawyer he hired, a woman name, have the color had notified the court that, never mind, Jessie does wanna take a plea.

If so, where in court? Barn goals Jessie for being laid? And then he turns to have them. The color I hear the nico wants to plead now.

is that correct?

Because on our side, the delay, no excuses.

And then turns to Jesse.

correct? Mnc.

no.

no, man. As in surprise, Jessie doesn't want to take foota. And then IT just spins out of control.

What do you mean? No man. Juja baron says i'm unhappy with my representation, Jessie replies. When Jessie accuses having the color of china, pressure him to take a plea against his wishes. My color, who's standing right next, J. C, is like I on a minute, mica tells just about, this is the first time she's hearing this and the color and Jessie start .

arguing this this point, you know.

one person of talks at a time is your lawyers. People go two .

occasions yesterday and this morning before we came in here. And then he made no indication on that. He was not comfortable taking this plan, so if he wants to continue on the trial, he can do so.

If he's unhappy with my representation, I will excuse by so because I have done, I have done all I came from mr. dickerson. And if he wants to keep going on with this and playing games, I can do IT .

judge the barren signs of heather. She's presided over just his case for seven months and doesn't seem to have a question about whose fall faces. But judge a.

Brown forced to once again set another court date for Jessie. Afterwards, Jessie tells me he had flipped because he was afraid that if he took the police judge, a Brown was gonna in jail. He tells me, now is got a new plan high Scott zy, we trial.

About a week later, Jessie's next court date in nuclear. I got to access a little earlier to watch some of judge barons. Other .

cases I heard .

from sera, but just Brown was tough. And weed smokers, I saw what he man. Three of the cases that morning involve someone who had the same mister mini, a drug charge Jessie did, and just the Brown was hard than all of them.

When a nurse had fAllen asleep in the dry fruit before a jula bown grumbled that someone should contact a state licensing, born SHE told a high school kid. But if he saw him again on a we charge, he was gonna row him in adult jail. Adult jail.

For point in comes Jessie looking like he just roll out of bed. He couldn't stop yearning and he kept running his tune over his teeth s like he was trying to get of last night's meal. He also rid of weed. I'm in ricked o just and I took a couple seats in the court room gallery whispering. He waited for court start.

Jesse dome, his plan for today was to pleaded guilty. That's right after pissing off juda barn by not showing up to court men agreeing to reply, then insisting on a trial, then agreeing to apply again, then insisting on a trial again. Justice plan today was to reverse cause one more time and accept a plea deal. So what's is your strategy here? What are you're gonna .

say over SHE actually? really. Could you put .

the door .

yesterday? No, I, I, I.

Why would I do why i'm saying this is scenario right in which he asks how often you take drugs, right? Be .

honest.

I judges people is quite a bit a sort of honesty test for defendants. Could you pass a drug test today? Oh, you could pass well next to one right now.

Oh no, you couldn't pass. I'm sorry. Speak up still. Jessie, who smells like a shadow w would fail a drug test tells me now he's onna play IT straight appeal for mery. He thinks just about and respect fat fast for an hour or so.

And if I just test you today, you're gonna be positive, right? Oh, you're not once the last time you had smooth away.

I say two to exchange oh.

when you think it's .

clear from your system and I know least days.

I can't pass the drug test jet eventually admits not a good look。 I need to get back on the right track he says, nuclear. Where is gott ramsey just a Brown asks, told me on friday you'd haven't here. Yeah, he was able to make IT just numbers, just barren, asked Jessie if he is anything to save for himself Jessie, half apologizing, half pleading, tells just the baron about the day was pulled over about the sun being borne premature ally, how he was just driving home to change his cloth. Does the barn is not moved.

so you drive them home with the open container, small house in the center council.

Didn't know what .

is you are I I thought .

I thought was like, I drink. I did. I mean, I did what I drink that idea. Have some mariana, but I did.

This is how you're .

gonna see your child .

are all stress.

Then judge the Brown started talking about just these drive .

this license suspension and how many often spending did you have on .

that day on day?

I hope you nine, nine.

a lot of suspensions. I know although people walking around with multiple drivers, license suspensions is not at all on common in ohio, which I want to talk about for one quick second here because it's a real trap build into the ohio criminal court system, one that judges seem to hate. And that snags lots of people, especially poor people who live in in urban areas.

His heart works. I grew up in ohio. Love ohio. But IT is a terrible place to try to function without being able to drive.

Perhaps in part for that very reason, the state is learned that we're working. Someone's drivers' license is a great way to get their attention for any number of things. Lapse car insurance, open warrants, being late on child support, on excuse absences from school.

There are more than forty different ways you can get your license suspended in ohio. According to the B. M. V, the ohio bureau motor vehicles, one point one million people in ohio got my license spended last year as attempt of the state. And on average, the bean. This says people with suspensions don't just have one suspension, the three on average, because people keep driving and can be hard not to.

And every time your court driving on a suspended license, you get another suspension as an escalating series of penalties, Mandatory being v fees, and finds that only a payday loan company would be proud of trying to get out from under these suspensions once you've been called in the trap is a terrible business. Jesse, he didn't even know how much he ode. I cooled around to various municipal courts, added up the potential B, M, B, cost.

And I say, Jessie, good to know as much as ten thousand dollars, he told me, was tried from time to time. The tentative thees paid one fine here, got on a payment plan there. But at the rate is going, he'll probably never be able to settle this bill or get a father driver's license.

Okay, back to court. In nuclear, Jessie, thinking of weed, is offering to be guilty to two out of eight charters. Just about an except justice police man. He wondered out loud whether justice would be a good candidate for probation instead of a jail sentence. A conclusion just the bound comes to is, no, no, he would not.

You're gonna do is argue with the prevention officer over anything that I may order in this case, kindly, like you did with the officers when they play share under arrest. And you're kind of at the jail with the corrections of officers. My conduct .

have a jail of the corrections officers. Jessie asks, does the bar on refreshes his memory? He takes out a police report from justice arrest, or that I hadn't seen.

Well, well, they return supporting you to the jail. Do you remember your lovely comment to the officers? Your racist due in your partner.

That's why they call you pigs. Fuck you. Fuck you over and over in the car.

Then at the jail, your asking the officers in front of the corrections to officers, what do you want to see him? Step search. May you fucking and bag want to see? My dick is really .

quite bracing to hear with western White lady, drop the n word and more in an open call like this thing to your fourth grade teacher. Read a quantity tina grap, but just the bowing is not shy. And Jessie, from what I can tell, is embarrassed. He looks resigned and small, is judge the barn sentences, hundred dollars in fines, forty hours of community service and those nine suspensions or congratulations just the baron says you just spore suspension number ten, from the state of ohio, he said, this is justice to five days in jail. Jessie, till his head back closes, desires as a baillet, places him in handcuffs, lead him away.

I want to tell you what ended up happening with arms. Ensure the guy with the blunt who got arrested in the hallway of his own apartment building and put in the hospital by two police officers, because aramis and Jessie, obviously their experiences with the police at the hands of police are very different, and they're very different people. But in certain ways, their cases echo each other.

The aftershocks, especially if you remember arms, was trying to get rid of his criminal charges so that he could file a civil lawsuit. The resisting arrest was the sticking point. He wasn't going to plead to IT.

The city wasn't onna drop IT. They were to stand off. A trial date was said. And then that video came out, the one that armis lawyer called a miracle manner from heaven only legally speaking, of course, in every other way. The video was horrible. IT showed a White, you could police officer Michael amy, at the same one from arms' case, beating the crap out of a Young black guy during a traffic stop, seemingly without provocation. The guy in the video, actually, videos there are several, was name Richard huber. The third, you could see hubart splayed out on the aspen officer, amy out on top of him, punching him in the face with both arms, right left, right, left, is he hubbard's girlfriend on her hands and knees, slapping the ground, just if you feed away from them, screaming for you to stop. Pretty soon the story was in the washington post, the new york post, the L A time CNN.

They did the same thing. me. I mean, IT seems like they're going from one to another.

When arms watched IT, he recognized with iterations the beating in that video, the series of moves the officers make the way officer amy out straight away, tries to kick Richard huber in the crack.

Or maybe that's no procedure UK. Maybe they they get the do you to the ground and knew and kick you in the face and tell you and that's maybe I don't know, maybe that's new procedure, you go out, I don't know.

Army's civil attorney pok stalls figured the huber video would persuade the city of uclaf de to drop the resisting, maybe drop everything because how are you going to put an officer on the stand who's been suspended for excessive force, who had turned out had had to resign from his previous job at the matter police department for lying about a traffic stop, even wearing a crisp uniform? Officer amy out probably would look like a bad egg if you're testified.

A few weeks when five uglier did not drop the whole thing. September twenty seventeen, armas had his final pretrial date in ugly IT was a thursday. The trial was scheduled for monday, poor days from now.

Spiral s. Cano, cus arm's criminal attorney, was running around the courthouse, hugging over the most recent plea offer. Arms arrived with his mother, Kelly. There were a little tense. Understandably, they weren't sure what was about to happen.

They've been fighting these charges for a long time, nine months, and that was all very real, the prospect that if they couldn't work something out today and the armas ended up a trial and was convicted at trial, he could get jail time. Spirals, walks over motions that he wants to speak to arms and calling. Can I come? No, okay.

They step outside the building. I can see them through the plate class windows. Spirit s just stimulating. Armon Kelly, listening, nodding, more distinct, late, more nodding.

They come back in.

We all go into the court room. At the prosecutors table with a guest prosecutor, a woman name, serapa ally, from a fancy clean off after the scandal with officer amy a, you could had harder to deal with arms' case already know the judge Debra baron.

hey, my understanding is a plea greece has been reached. Is that correct?

That is correct.

Our and the plea is the only.

I be half the city of youth, and at this time is my understanding that was just spend to dry his previous center place of that guilty. And they they have guilty to the regime SE charge to the baLances the church to be emerging, dismissed at his cost after all the struggle over these four charges in the civil ride secrets they contained. We'd landed here. No resisting, not even last itch, disorderly conduct, just the weed.

So you're dismissing count B, C. Indeed, they left the recent arrest in the criminal damaging is erected, create gentle .

barn checks with the arms that correct? Yes, you're honor. SHE asked him if he's using marijuana.

He says no that he stopped after the incident. He tells her is trying to get a job. Arm's mother calling is moving around in her seat in the gallery.

You seem like you want to say something to me, to you.

I do just a .

few minutes to go out in the lobby. Before court started calling, I had been talking. She's got four grown sons or close family. She's been right there with arms.

Every step of this case, SHE told me the police don't realize one day this could happen to one of their children some way. Somehow he said, the excessive force IT has to stop. I said.

I don't care less about anything else as my money and go just stop IT I may i'm not trying to do know risk. This is another artist wanted to be fixed because I made, i'm not when police are, but if the system down fixed the water as bad, then they made the whole system is corrupt. But you want us, a society to fix was going on in our home, but you don't want to fix was going on in your home. Okay, I love to know SHE talked .

about the beating her son tuck, but I was like for her to him in a hospital bed, his face disfigured as SHE felt blessed. SHE had been called to come view her son's body that day. Now kEllie was about to address the judge for the first time. I thought here comes.

even though was a bad incident to happen. I'm glad because I have been trying to get myself off a more one for years. He's been cleaned there this december.

I can add for A A Better payment for me is to see my son back. Gracy was before seeing him off the maritime and everything else is a blast. So but then i'm thankful and .

I appreciate your comments me and unfortunately, sometimes that takes something .

bad to happen for something good to come out of that.

We now.

yes.

well, I see must you spend for you a great support in your mother and you're very lucky to have that. And the drug abuse charge I found you guilty. It'll be one hundred and fifty dollars in costs.

spirit said, said IT, too. This incident, he told the judge has held aramis. He's been clean off marijuana, straighten out. He's just happy to put .

this matter behind him the .

elephant in the room, the kicking, the chasing, the two hospitals, the broken orbital bone, all of IT had suddenly shrank to the size of a bulge, a blunt sized bulge, as if this whole ugly endeavour was only about getting arms off of weed. Armas knew the truth of IT. Of course, later outside the course, he give me a rice smile and say, i'll take what I can get. But in this moment, cali was flooded with maternal relief. SHE walked over the seriously the visiting prosecutor and gave a hug.

He's time is life, and this .

is that hug.

not the end of the story, more after the break. It's another wild weeknight, so you pick an easy new york times cooking sheep and recipe, but when you open the pantry, no, I and as usual, somehow you're low and olive oil with inter card. There's another way where quality ingredients don't require a road trip for the contents of your pension.

You don't define your meal where you can click shop ingredients on instincts on new york times, cooking recipe for delivery and as fast as thirty minutes. Learn more. I M I T cooking up com slash insta ard. That's M I T cooking up .

com flash in card. This page, as is supported by suma, a modern design company crafting simple elevated furniture from premium eco friendly materials designed to enrich your space dums core collection, the classic bed next stressed and pillar bookshelf combines japanese joining with thoughtful design for timeless style and lasting quality assembly is quickly easy taking despise minutes and no tools required to explore the full collection and get one hundred dollars off your first bed sumer dot co. That's T H U M A dot C O.

When polled first taken me to meet aromas back at the end of twenty sixteen as we are driving home, he had impressed on me how endorsing the consequences of a beating can be. Pause, talk to a lot of people who have been hurt by police officers or corrections officers and he said, it's not something that's over, even when it's over, when when you are seriously injured by the police, when you sent to the hospital and isn't just soft tissue, some bushed um IT really does affect them and that this will mess with them.

You like if you stick with this story and we follow them, you'll see, I understood the broad strokes of what paul was saying, that there would be some kind of fallout over time, psychological fallout. But I wasn't sure what that was gonna like a few weeks after army's criminal case ended, paul told me about a confusing conversation he'd had with armas, during which armas was repeating certain things about what had happened in his hallway as if we're looping in his head. I called Kelly ask whether she'd noticed .

the same thing over, over, over and over.

哇 啊。 And are you like how worry are you about him? vary. Oh.

really other mothers is it's not easy. Watch your child or goodness and you will have a way up. Um I don't know for me like he his trust levels s not that one was anytime something .

comes up in the news, he said, or maybe they are watching a movie together, would used to be a joy for her. Now if something comes up related to police violence or government corruption, she's worried about army's reaction first.

Then you will say and say, I tell you, get us nobody and is like he gets on may be angry and he gets a talk and you can he voice is loud. You can field, uh assess of rage at his and his turney now his body legging just told that .

what's your fear for ham if he's kind of got that um rage and anger um he .

he's got to the point now what he's not really a play at the street 在哪里？

Armas is hurting, SHE said. In the shape of that, hurt seems to be a need to prove to everyone around him that is not a punk that is tough. So kay's biggest fear now is that they'll take that hurt and that need out into the streets and deploy them where they don't belong. Kelly says none of her sons had been in the streets growing up, so this is new for her, for them. SHE never thought this kind of thing would happen to her family, but he said, suddenly you are that family that is happening to.

Officer Michael emma, the cop in army's case, was fired from the ugo police department. More use of force incidents had come to light, including a dreadful thing in the uku public library body. Can video showed up on taking a sixteen year old girl wearing a backpack to the ground face first while he was in handcuffs, captured down with his knee.

A small child was watching, shrieking amy. I stayed red for about a year, but he appealed his termination. And just recently, an arbitrator cited with him, officer amy at should be back on the ua police force any day.

Paulk style did end up filing a lawsuit on behalf of armies against the city of ukraine, the police officers and army's apartment building. Seraphically, the guest prosecutor whom Kelly hugged, defended the city of ugly. This past summer.

They settled neither the city nor the officers admitted liability. Armas got fifty thousand dollars. IT wasn't as much as polite hoped, but he felt he was the best I were going to do things with.

The armies had become rocky. He picked up a few new charges, marijuana, but also domestic violence. They were all mister me, but still.

I don't want to make .

excuses for whatever armies might have done. And to be clear, neither did paul. But I did ask paul whether he thought there was a connection between then and now.

Was this what he was talking about back in december of twenty sixteen, when he told me this will mess with him. If you stick with the story and we follow him, you'll see, paul said, I don't know, I really don't know. In a civil trial, the seeing you win, the jury has to figure out damages.

That's the final stage of reckoning. A cause leads to an effect, leads to compensation for the damage on you financially, physically, to fairly rational calculus. But how do you quantify the intangible damage your cap does to your sense of the world, to your sense of yourself when he kicks you? ask? And then what if it's not one cause that's LED to the damage? What if there are many causes, many effects? I tried to call a message aramis.

Finally, I got work through paul erms didn't plan on calling me back. He said he didn't have any interest in that right now. Just in nicaro know different story, just he had a lot to say to a manual about causes and effects. I'm going to hand you back to a manual now.

For months, Jessie continued to rack up all kinds of tickets and charges, including a charge for menacing in the ecover police officer at a gas station. When i've first heard about this thing, honestly, I thought now is just more of the same. But police have a hydro g for jc.

They were probably arrested him and gave IT back. Small thing took on a life of his own, which is how Jessie initially described IT. He said, yeah, IT confronted a call.

But IT was nothing really pretty time. So when I got the video of what had happened, IT really through me, IT was not tam. The video is from a body camp that David duncan and his prison police officer was wearing in IT.

You can see that dunk understanding inside a gas station convenience store right by the entrance. Then G, S, C enters the frame coming from the back of the show. Carrying a drink. Jesse skips everyone in line at a register, put some money down in the council, and as he walks, passed, done towards the door, starts cutting amount.

Are you get this? I tell your brother, have a brother.

Jessie leaves the store, but then comes back in. He walks towards duncan and then backs up, opening the doors if to leave again and again. As duncan told Jessie, he never anything to Jessie trying to start something with duncan.

Duncan is really not going for IT, but Jessie is relentless. You only do stuff to people in cuf. Jesse says you are.

那边 是。 To you motions to the .

parking.

你 那个。

I found this video shocking Jessie's so aggressive I didn't understand IT didn't understand what Jessie forty was doing, or what in the world he could possibly get from going after a cop this way, other than more trouble. A few hours after I got the video, I made up project to talk about IT picture of help me here you are right.

just.

you ve been smoking weed in this car, in the parking lot, at a train and bus, right in the midst of these clear them. A lot of people .

seem to come and hang out here.

Jesse and I SAT in his car and watched the video. We got to the part where Jessie seems to be chAllenging duncan to fight. I posted. So what are you asking him to do?

that? Telling, telling to address the issue. Fair, basic.

Would you people put your hands on me? That's I am saying, like, be a man day. Come on. I'm not saying i'm going to big eyes right now.

I'm saying you are saying, like step outside.

What do you mean take off, take off, take off his army, his bed and all of that and be a man like.

what does that mean? Be a man saying.

because obviously, every time later tell me they don't beat me up at hand.

I I guess it's confusing to me because in the one hand, you said I don't want any business of police. I'm going about my business. I'm not doing anything illegal and they are harassing me. But that seems like but IT seems like you are go your harassing this officer right now like you're starting this.

I.

Jessie reminded me that David duncan wasn't some random is giving police officer duncan was the officer who darted free cloud of people on the fourth july. Let everyone else alone and grab Jessie. IT was duncan who drag Jessie to the car. IT was duncan on the body camp from that night who stood over Jessie, insisting that Jessie had hurt himself as Jessie labor shouting in pain.

do you feel we wash for on your own? We wash for on your we ash.

Jessie also told me he knew duncan even before that. Remember office and levels, the cop who gave justice phone number to the name dixon for one who's circled me in Jessie in the park. Jessie gone to the police department to complain about levels.

And when he did, he was officer duncan. Jessie said he had talked to Jessie, said duncan asked him who he wanted to complain about, and when Jessie told him nevels, Jessie said duncan told him, man, get the fuck out here. I trying to talk to duncan to ask about its various interactions with Jessie, but the plea department refused to make him available.

Jessie told me as a rule, he's never back down from a five, except with the police. Sure, he shows his mouth of them, but he never fought back physically, not in the park of the me dixon, not in the full july, not when he says they threw him in the holding cell. Jessie felt like the police were bullying him, and he was just taking IT matter, been bordering IT more and more. Another time we're hang out at window are just he told me he'd been having dreams about being back in the park with the name and the other cup, reliving the moment, the name, the chAllenging to a fight. He sounded like these dreams were one part flashback, one part fantasy, about how things might have gone differently.

The situation probably would have worked on for the best or the worse if I would defend IT myself, like I thought to learn from the situation. They may chase me and beat me now. So i'm thinking, like, like if I would to handle my bin is right in because i'm a man and and I know.

like you think that if you defend yourself.

we gone Better for you Better I know, I know for me, my physical will be like I I can handle him like I I could not handle both officers.

I double the name was a six foot for x arena foobar line backer. I don't know. I just feel like two against one that situation i'm not trying to like that. Would none have turned out wealthy?

No, i'm not saying like I would they really like I hate that I put in the famous of the I hate that I could do feel when I just rain that mean I didn't surrender to, like I didn't surrender to.

I knew justice felt ashamed about that night in the park. Mine always fought. That was because it's inherently humiliating to be physically of a powered.

But talking with Jessie, I realize I didn't have that. Quite right. really. The thing jack feels ashamed about is that ran away.

Js, but more, I watch the video in the gas station.

but more Jessie confrontation with officers. Duncan look different. Jessie was asking duncan to fight him like a man. Now that Jessie wasn't in cups, when you're onna hear as fight me like you a man, but IT also for duncan to fight Jessie .

like Jessie a man too.

In a video after what feels like an eternity of yelling at duncan, just he finally gives up leaves. We other people in the store start talking a lot of miles, miles, one guy in the store dabbed, dunk up, congratulate ates duncan on keeping his cool. At one point, the woman says to duncan about Jessie, that is so sad.

Once I saw a video of Jessie yelling at duncan, I wanted to get my hands on as much information about Jessie interactions with the police as possible. So same day, I went from Jesse's car to the east, giving police station to see if I could pick up some more police support from Jessie's arrest. On the forth july aver station builds a man at the vestibule window I never met before.

Surgeon jeff Williams, thousand, is not the White guy, well built, weared bold, with a sulton pepper go tea. I told them I wanted the police report. He got up, ambled over to a computer and asked, who was for just in this? And I said, I want to see, leave a reports for a fourth july thousand milliamp noted, printed off reports as he walked to the window with scanner pages, laughing a little as he read what just he said to the officers at night.

But when he got to the window, something within desire suddenly whiled up with tears. He told me that Jessie never would have talked to him that way. I've been trying for months to gain anyone from these given police department to talk to me about Jessie and had just been impossible.

Other William didn't say much else, but emotionally, over to a door and buzz into the back. We went to an office where I was offered me a seated a desk. He told me he didn't want to be recorded, but he said, let me tell you why, jie is the way southers Williams told me had been acquainted with justice's family for twenty years.

The Nicholas were sort of the notorious in ney's cleveland and Jesse's older brothers were constantly getting in trouble. But sager Williams said, Jessie was a really sweet kid, super bright, the kind of kid you want to save from the world around them. Don't even smiled.

When he talked about IT, many paused. Suggest stop being that right, Young kid. After Ricky died, Jessie told me about Ricky, his older brother, and how Ricky was murdered in one thousand and ninety eight.

When Jessie was ten years old, we were sitting in his living room and just he built a makeshift diarra on the coffee table in front of them, using a cigaret lighter in a bottles of oka. Just move them around. As he told the story about one night, Ricky been with three friends hanging out in the parking lot smoking weed lace with pcp.

Then one of rick's friends had a psychology episode, shot Ricky in the head. The other guys ran, but a friend of a gun hunted them down one by one and kill them. According to Jessie.

All of this happened with a police officer just once tweet away. An officer who knows doubt heard the gunfire but didn't respond until out of the shooting stalled. But police could have saved one person that night, Jessie said, but the office didn't do nothing.

Sn over there, and three people died. Southard woos told me that after that night, Jessie wasn't the same. Within a couple of years, he started getting in trouble.

He said, Jessie's whole families seem to real from Ricky's death for years afterwards. Sdn Williams said he would constantly be picking up one of Jessie's other brothers for small crimes, mostly drug related. One night, Williams responded to a disturbance, and when he got there, he saw you as his brother was involved.

Justice brother was so high and out of IT, so don't wen am decided to just take him home instead of taking him to the station as they drove. Just his brother told south Williams, you don't know, death thousand people admitted needn't no death. The only people he'd ever lost with his grandparents, he rode his brother off.

When sam Williams came home that morning, he arrived to find his own fourteen year old sun ki had died. He's been having a bottle of dust of computer cleaner and gone into carjack arrest. Sant William said.

The death to his family apart, he blamed himself for not knowing how dangerous huffing was. His daughter blamed herself because she's seen cosme off with a bottle of dust, often hadn't said anything sad roams said he never recovered. Sadam wyn's told me he's watched just a yet in trouble.

And to him is always look like suffering. The only reward justice ever gotten for his suffering at him deserting Williams was be beaten up by two cops and send a way of a little bit of money, he said. These days, whenever he hears jessy s name, he braces himself for the news that Jesse's dead, he told me, but if I was gonna do a story about Jesse Nicole, I should talk to Jessie more about Ricky. So I did three weeks later.

Jessie and I met in his apartment. Jesse was not in the greatest of moods I in the view, has built into a thursday night and he could hear with friends drinking out sign. I bought up some and Williams I ran into him, uh, not too long ago um and he some really nice things about you I started to tell him what sudden Williams had said about what a sweet, bright kid Jessie was about with his murder but he said he wasn't like that I know.

officer, never a shit for me and clear. I never gave me an extra dime apple or another. This is okay because I mean.

he didn't even save IT. He he'd really done. I didn't even save IT.

It's no officer that never never been nice to me so no.

Jessie was adamant, more adamant. But I ever heard in b, he denied that sad William know anything about him.

This how blind and full SHE was he? He not speaking on me. He not speaking on me.

He speaks him on my brother. While i'm tony nine, i'm tony, my brother, my my brother guy killed twenty one years ago. I went now here in the streets. He, he will, he will know me back.

But he said you were like a small kid and that you he knew you was a small kid.

I wasn't out here. I was not here in the streets like I wasn't out here.

I am trying.

I do, i'm saying I actually do to my f like, i'm my lesson. I'm not acting with the officer from my school and stuff. I'm a child. I'm like, how what is you not seeing me?

Jessie says sergeant Williams must be confusing him for his brother William have met Jessie's brother William. He and Jesse do look look like but in any case, the thing Jessie most strongly rejected was that rugge's death and change for cause .

of jessy s life in the way santa millions of saying his brother guy has killed any troubling and will keep on if you see me cry. That's what supposed to do. I went through the things that I was going to.

I was going down. I was just dumb. I think everybody are here would out of flashy stuff.

Not that I wanted to want the same stuff, but you know, quite a case when I was eighteen, got out when I was twenty two and I never been at night. So that's cool. I mean, I am, I get off to speak facts, man, like life is about facts.

But they want to single out something like why I am a trouble human being, like why I am a trouble person. This is a person expect somebody else's life. I mean, that's IT in all he trying to do. Is we like, is why nick is the way he is, or is why he didn't went to the drive trip that he then went to? That's not the case, may, that's not the case.

Just he went on angrily for the next ten minutes about sergent Williams theory. I think his reaction was so intense because he's been through so much more than Ricky's death. His sister denis, who Jesse was close to, went missing for over a week when Jessie was a teenager and he was found dead in her apartment.

His brother anthon, died as an infant. His teenager, nef w. Dion ray, died in a drive by man. Well over wrongs, Jesse believed the police have done him.

I think when thousand Williams pins so much meaning on Ricky and how rick is death affect Jessie, Jessie founded offensive generalized ing. Jessie wasn't in the mood to hear a sergeant series. He was too angry for that. And he wasn't interested in being explained, especially by, of all people, a police officer.

Like i'm very easy now like I am not i'm tired of being treated like of i'm i'm tired. I'm try of being the victim. So no more just nick is being a victim like i'm not let in.

What does .

that mean and out, whatever I mean, like, i'm not and I just want the world to know. I see. Like i'm not body, keep being the victim.

Like if don't let us come up on me, put him on me for reason i'm not gonna have like i'm not just, but I do can see all these other times. I never did not in bed. I I just been a victim. I'm not rather keep being a victim. I, I.

I had to press them to get into that out explicitly. But Jessie was saying that the next time the police got physical with him, his plan was to fight back. Pretty Morrison for everyone. Especially worrisome, because in the months after that, the leanest cleveland appeared to be driving down just his street a lot, riding Jessie ticket after ticket for usual, driving on a suspension, read possession. One is cleveland cop later told me, the attitude of a fox in charge was that while officers shouldn't go out of their way to write this yet, they should grow handle Jessie whenever the opportunity presented itself. Eventually, these givon cop told me the snowball effect will you know take effect.

Last thing i'm gona tell you is how Jessie pile up with criminal charges in these clever and shook out just a beat one charger trial, but the bulk of them dragged on for months, months and months until one court date in january when he's given essentially held out one hand to make a deal and with the other, IT took a swing. The city dropped all five charges from Jessie four of july.

Arrest made, have body can video that backup the claim? But jesi gressier, but he's bat on an officer. In return, Jessie pleaded to three mister mini charges, including the menacing charge against officer dunk in at the gas station, and on those charges, the city went after him asking for a year in jail.

During a sentencing, the city prosecutor listed some of just as old family convictions, noting Jesse's long wrapped in his cleveland some twenty two cases at all SHE fed body cm video from one of Jessie's previous arrest, where, true to form, Jessie was mouthing off to the police officer. What he didn't know was that that same arrest was suspend. Jesse later beat that case of trial.

Anyway, in a brief filed of the court, the city argued that Jessie posed a danger to the police. And on top of that was a quote, extremely negatively perverse influence on the city of these cleveland. The judge Williams dawson, didn't seem move by the city y's pitch.

Instead he did something I did not see coming. He pretty much acknowledge that the city had a point, but also he diploma atis told everyone that he thought Jessie had a point too, but the city and the police had been out for him. Dawson said in not so many words, that probably true.

I wasn't there, but I was like, you prevail. There was a settlement. So obviously something happened. And that could be the reason you have a problem with the police. I cannot discount IT.

And at the same time, that may be a reason why they have a problem with you. It's like, okay, we think that he prevailed and he shouldn't prevail. So yeah, every time his black working and we've on this is called IT as blank as possible, they don't like you maybe, and you may not like that. So now how do we deal with encounters so that you up in court? That's the key.

Judge dowson decided some kind of solution other than jail time was in order. With that, he sentence Jessie to six months of probation and enrolled him in a programme designed to teach people how to have Better experiences with the criminal justice system. His hope, he later told me, was that Jesse would learn how to behave Better around police to calm himself, so his interactions would be less heated. I thought I was almost kind, though IT also seemed like the judge was hoping Jessie would change, because he knew this giving police were going to.

Just before Jessie thirty eighth birthday, he was talking to a manual on the phone. Jessie was full of resolve. He was wasting too much energy on the courts.

He said he is ready to do something meaningful, maybe read a book about his life. We wanted to write the end of his story now, he said so that that would be a good ending. If you slot Jessie into a data set, no one's favorite place to hang out.

Sorry, Jessie, but if you consider him not as a trash talker with a rap sheet, but as a thirty old man going about his business odda, the criminal justice system is pretty much done with Jessie because people in their thirties and older, they're not the ones committing the most and the worst crimes. As one research paper I read gently put, IT crime tends to be a Young person's activity. To see the people the system is really focused on.

We need to just lead into the left a little bit and look behind Jessie at the teenagers. That's next time on cereal, which will be in two weeks. I gotto go out of town, but then we will be back with our final episodes.

Serials produced by Julie snyder, a manual joky ban coho and me with additional reporting by italy az costi and a few scruggs editing on this episode from irag glass. We need danger field as our digital editor research in fact checking by ben, fAiling sound design and mixed by stone Nelson, music clearance by Anthony roman, this our director Operations, the serial staff includes Emily contain, Julie wedging, casey holy Francis swan and maternal our music is by adam dorn, and how wilner with additional music from mamady I and westwards, our theme song is by nickerson n and remixed by adam door.

Special thanks to Derek Jackson, mario crenshaw, nick castle, judge Michael Donald, judge jono, David eisenberg and linsey bar, greg Edwards and marsh Fisher from the oh bur u of motor vehicles, abominate neel, AManda bates, Linda go and jack Green the art on our website was made by Martinez E, B. He created the mirror for the episode and mod studios at the animation. Please check IT out on our website, zero podcast, that word, that serial podcast that work where you can also sign up for our email news letter and be notified when new episodes are released. Serials are production of this american life in W B E Z. chicago.