The Pacers Survive (Again!), Game 7 Thoughts, the Lakers Sale and KD Rumors 9.0 With Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney
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It's a little new, almost like OKC playing defense today, where it looked like they'd never played defense before. Zach, what was your big takeaway? Because I don't understand what OKC was doing in this game with the tournament, the trophy, everything, sitting two and a half hours away, and it was a no-show. Two big takeaways. Number one, the Pacers are awesome. I didn't see this coming twice.

I thought OKC was going to clinch it today. It wouldn't have surprised me if OKC won rather easily. And Indiana's like, no, we don't go out like that. Calf strain, whatever. Tyrese Halliburton, perfect balance between kind of being an off-ball decoy and then taking the reins when it made sense. And just TJ McConnell doing T. Got a McConnell, another McConnell. And they're just awesome. Second takeaway, OKC played well.

like a team that knew what was at stake and was a little bit nervous. And I thought Shea forced it really like forced it early. Some bad turnover, some bad shots just weren't. They were just skittish and not in a rhythm. And you know what? It is the biggest game that any of them have ever played. And it looked like the biggest game that any of them ever played. They lost this game because their offense was miserable and Indiana won the turnover battle and they had no assists and no threes. Same formula for losing a lot of these games for them.

Yeah. If their offense was terrible, it's because the Pacers made it terrible. And if Oklahoma City didn't show up, it's because the Pacers, frankly, like rescinded their invitation in this game. Like, I think we talk a lot about the connectivity of the Pacers on offense, but I think this is just one of the most connected teams, period, that we

that we've seen certainly this season, even relative to the Thunder, which is really saying something. But even in recent memory, like other teams have had more talent that have been incredibly connected. The Pacers are really talented. They're really capable. They're really smart. And they just figure out how to dominate a game like this on defense of all things. End of the first half, Indy's up 22. OKC is one for 11 from three. They have three assists. They have zero steals.

And that's where I bring up the why didn't they show up thing. Because, Zach, we were at game four and Dort and Caruso just put their imprint all over that game from the get-go and especially in the second half. And Dort was such a beast. And neither of those guys were there at all in the game today. And when you take that out and Indy had some room to run, I guess the bigger question for me is were they rope-a-doped a little bit by this Halliburton injury situation? It almost seemed like they were surprised that

That he had that in them, which I, which I didn't really understand. They weren't, they weren't attacking him. Like the game we went to game four, Zach, where they were picking them up full court, really trying to like, you know, bully him around, take him out of the game. It was almost like they didn't understand how he was doing what he was doing, which was kind of how I felt because by the time we got to this game, it seemed like he was going to be rolled out in a wheelchair and

and was just going to limp around. It wasn't like that at all. Yeah, weird game across the board, right? Like the stakes, the pressure, the championship on the line for you and not necessarily on the line. You have another chance, but it's there. It's sitting there. You know they're bringing in the champagne and they're going to have the plastic wrap over the locker. And you also know

the best player on their team is injured to some degree. And is he going to play? Is he not going to play? How well is he going to play? Is he going to change the way that he plays? I thought they went at him a little bit when Indiana was on defense in the first half, had a couple successful possessions. I would just do it every single time. I thought,

they poked around here and there with some interesting matchups and poked at different places, but I don't think they poked at him enough. But look, I mean, Indiana played awesome. This was an awesome defensive performance from a team that has gelled in to a really good defensive team. And look, Oklahoma City got its blowout win in game two. This is the first real Pacers blowout win. The biggest lead of the series was 12. They announced that on the first half of the broadcast. And the series is now like

I pretty even, I think the final margin going into game seven is Oklahoma city plus five over six games. Like it's a pretty, it's, they were up. There was plus 24 coming into tonight. They won by 19. So if my math is right, it's plus five. Like it, it's a pretty even series. And again, my takeaway just as it was after game one is, um,

Indiana is just awesome. Something about the way they play, like the on paper gap might be, oh, they're, you know, plus four net rating versus plus 13 net rating versus plus eight net rating. Whatever that gap is, their style of play shrinks it down to a minimal amount. They're just an awesome, awesome team. I think part of the reason for that, I was thinking about it during this game is who would I want to coach a game like this more than Rick Carlisle?

And it's the combination of when your star is injured, we've seen him coach incredible runs with other teams, with guys at and out of the lineup. It's operating at a perceived talent deficit. It's operating against the best defense we've seen in modern NBA history. I just think that Rick Carl modulates better than any other coach out there. And he understands all

All of the trade-offs in the game, better than almost anyone else. We saw it with Andrew Nembhard in this one, kind of scaling back his defensive pressure. Huge on offense. And he had to be. He had to be that big for them to be great. And they were able to pull that off because I think Carlisle coaches everything on a sliding scale. Nothing is too precious to change. And at the same time, they're able to adjust things in very controlled ways without giving up who they are and giving up what the identity of the Pacers has been.

With all that said, be honest, when OKC went up 8-2. 10-2. I think it was 10-2, wasn't it? And it was like, oh man, this is going to be sad. I really like this indie team. And then all of a sudden, Nembhard had 8 straight.

TJ McConnell came in and had, did he have a full McConnell's act? If like, if McConnell were a free agent coming off this series, like $30 million, you can see, or some team like Brooklyn would be like, you know what? Forget Giannis. We're throwing the max at TJ McConnell. This is crazy what he's doing. So NBA university, which is a very good Twitter account. He tweeted this and I have no idea if it was a joke or not.

he asked if Brunson was used like Jalen Brunson and an offense revolved around him the same way the Knicks do. You did the Jalen Brunson offense. Would it be a good offense? And I was like, I don't know if you're joking or not, but I'm, I'm,

I'm going down the road. I'm thinking about this. The TJ McConnell shot diet is unlike anything in the NBA. Nobody takes these shots where it's like you go under a screen because that's what you're supposed to do and he just dribbles and meanders and he takes eight foot like full on jump shots, like eight feet from the rim, two hands on the ball, two feet off the ground, like with every burst of energy I can see and he gets it and it goes in like every time. Fallaways, he has those. He has the three point shot that takes two seconds to...

Unleash. What a breakout star. But I mean, we've anyone who watches league pass and watches basketball, we've all liked them. Sure. It's always a question of it felt like he was another guy on this Pacers team who was available for like three years, but not totally. And nobody went and got him. I remember arguing two years ago that the Spurs should have gotten him for the first year of Wembley.

And then it was a combo of, oh, Indy would never trade him. And then it's like, San Antonio could do better than, like, nobody was happy with the trade idea. Him and then Nembhardt, Rob. There's no other player in the league like Nembhardt at this point that I can think of. Unbelievable.

Yeah, like his ability to raise his game in exactly these moments. Obviously, throughout the playoffs, we've seen him just be a totally different player every time he gets to the postseason. But they needed both of those guys to do a lot of ball handling, a lot of creation. Like TJ McConnell has to not just take those crazy improbable, like high vaulting shots, but he had just stir shit up constantly on offense.

so that Halliburton could be a decoy, so that Halliburton could be, at some points, more of a catch-and-shoot player. And I think the only reason any of that works is because you have these other two ball-handling guards just sitting there. And you can scale up their minutes, you can scale up their responsibility. And I think Nembhard in particular, one thing he never gets enough credit for, he's such a great linebacker.

low-risk ball handler. Like, he just does not make a lot of stupid mistakes. He does not make a lot of crazy, audacious passes, although he did throw a beauty no-look in transition to Miles Turner in this game, which is about as flashy as Andrew Nembhard gets, and I salute it. The

Those guys are absolutely essential in a game like this. And they're going to be absolutely essential again in game seven, even with Tyrese Halliburton having a couple of days and a couple of icy hot patches and however many, you know, Advil he can take between now and then. I got to do my thing right now. I got to do the thing that I do every Pacers game, every Pacers podcast. How many minutes are we in now?

We haven't said his name yet. We haven't said his name yet. Nine minutes in. Pascal Siakam. Just doing everything for this team. 16, 13, three assists. Defended J-Dub a little bit, which we hadn't seen much in the series. Defends anybody you need him to defend. Got out in transition early in the game and kind of forced...

his way into the game and force the Pacers into the league. This is what we do after every game. It's like Halliburton McConnell, the bet one game it's math or, and then if we're 25 minutes, it's like, Oh yeah. Was he the best player on the Pacers again today? Maybe arguably, I don't know, but we just, we never lead with him and he's just always there humming in the background doing stuff. And especially in the first quarter, there was a couple of moments in that first quarter that looked a little rocky for them. And he was like, I got this guys. It's funny. You mentioned math. Right.

I'm not positive he played in the first half. He did. He came in, I think. Did he come in for like a split second? Because in the fourth quarter when he came back in, I checked the stats and he had played six minutes. I thought you meant spiritually you weren't sure if he had played in the first half. No, no, no. He literally played, I don't know, less than 10 minutes. But this was a guy who was the star of the game in game three. But this is like a classic example, Rob, of how fucking weird this Pacers team is. This Pacers team has 15 playoff wins.

This will be the 20th game seven that we've ever had. And only four road teams have ever won a game seven. And they now have a chance to be the fifth. Yeah. If there was going to be a fifth, I would think it would probably look a lot like these Indiana Pacers. And they would do similarly improbable shit. And they would do things like, for example, dominate a game in which they shoot 41% from the field. And if they just kind of hummed along and they wrecked this thing on defense, they have everything.

every single thing that they need somehow. And I think one of the joys for me in watching this team grow and evolve and become who they are is like seeing the situational awareness of guys like Ben Mathurin, like Aaron Neesmith, like Miles Turner, just like tick up and up and up and up. And it's not that they don't make mistakes, but like Aaron Neesmith and Miles Turner are not

huge passers. They're not pass-first players. They certainly were not profiled that way for previous teams, whether in Indiana or otherwise. And yet, you put them in this system for long enough, and they just become a part of that DNA. And they just start making really smart decisions. And the Pacers are a team that does not make sense in so many different ways, including the fact that their offense...

It's so many players running into the same spaces on the floor in a way that should not work for anybody else. And yet it's Pascal Siakam making a dump off pass to Nismith at just the right time that it becomes an and one. Like, I don't know how else to explain them other than you have to see it to believe it. Well, and then you're getting...

I mean, a pretty abominable shooting series from Turner, Zach. I don't know if... I don't know. He was one for nine today in the two Indiana games, games three and four. I think he was five for 20. So that means he was six for 29 in the three home games. That makes no sense at all. I felt like all his shots were open for the most part. OKC was happy to take them. And yet...

I thought he had some really big defensive moments in this game and was weirdly impactful, even though he couldn't shoot. We blocked Chet on the three. And I just thought Indiana's scramble rotations when they needed to get out in rotation were just on the money. They did not miss rotations. They were on time. They closed out. They closed out like to the level of the feet when they needed to. They closed out short when they needed to. They ran guys off the line.

when they needed to, just a dialed-in performance. And Miles Turner and Obi Toppin are on the seesaw. It's like even Steven. One plays bad, the other goes 5 of 7 from 3 or whatever, Obi Toppin. Second leading scorer in the game today, Obi Toppin. First leading scorer in the game, MVP Shea Gildress Alexander led all scorers with 21 points. Did not feel like it. I mean, he got a couple little bursts of momentum when they got him the ball at the nail. Eight turnovers for SGA. If you watched them back...

A couple of them were passes that you could assign like 60% of the turnover to him and 40% of the turnover to the guy on the other end of the pass. But just, I just didn't like his game for the most part today. I don't feel like he played a controlled, like,

championship level. I thought J-Dub outplayed him in the first half and looked like the steadier of the two, frankly. Two assists, too. Yeah, I thought J-Dub was okay. Shea, as you said, it just didn't feel like that kind of Shea game that you would want in a moment like this. And then there just wasn't any connective tissue. Like all the stuff that rounds out the Thunder offense, whether it's like a great Chet game or a good bench game or a good three-point shooting game or any of that transition offense, none of it was there. But yeah, credit to Miles Turner, who I thought just had Chet

straight up in hell on some of these possessions. And then also the Pacers Smalls, who Chad just could not exploit really at all in this game. He was missing missing jumpers. He was missing dunks, could not make an imprint on it really in any in any fashion at all. He's got to find some way. It doesn't have to be with scoring, but he has to be more of a force than this. Yeah, I don't know if his contract run has been helped or hurt.

Probably like slightly hurt. But on the other hand, like I think he's been a winning basketball player for a lot of stretches. Unbelievable defensive player. Even the baskets they got on him on switches today were like he made those pretty tough looks. Like Nembhard had the one where he had to take the ball to the other side of the rim and loft it high off the glass. Great defensive player. Didn't have it on offense today. Well, I don't know what relative of conspiracy build this is. Oh, boy. Yeah.

And I got to come up with a name for it. There's, there was two kind of non-basketball things going on with this three day rest between game five and game six. One was just a lot of smoke being blown toward OKC, which sometimes over 72 hours and then you're up, you got one more game, the best guy in the other team's hurt. You can get, you can get a little comfortable, right? I almost feel like they would have been better off if this game was just Wednesday, the three day break.

And just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ties hurt. But like, we just, we just played defense. It's we'll be fine. There's that one thing. And then, um, I remember somebody with the Celtics mentioned this to me last year, by the way, it was 15 minutes for about the Celtics. Um, they were up three, nothing in Dallas.

Game four, if they win, like, what are we doing? If we win, where's the party going to, and you start like planning stuff. Yeah. And it's not just the players, but it's the organization and teams can deny it. They can say it's not a real thing, but I'm positive. It's a thing. Cause I was in Dallas watching it happen. Your brain just started. Like, I think with the Celtics last year, their plan was to go to Miami after the game to do all the trophy stuff and then jet to Miami. And they had a setup and it's like,

Your mind drifts like a tiny bit and all of a sudden your focus is off. And I don't know. The OKC seemed to me like a team today that the focus was off from this team that was just a team of piranha. They were not piranha today. No. And I don't think, I mean, honestly, Indiana can win game seven in OKC if OKC plays defense like that again. They can.

Again, I thought the offense was and the pain inflicted by the Pacers defense was almost as big, if not bigger of a story to me than Oklahoma City's shortcomings on defense. But the question I would ask you to is, as we dig into that very thing, is like if you if you look back at this game, if we watch this game.

The how of like, how did in, in the actual non-garb, the first three quarters, the non-garbage quarters, I think the Pacers had like five turnovers or six turnovers total. So as you watch that game, it's now at halftime. It's now 20 minutes into the rear view. How did they manage to protect the ball so well against this defense? Like what were they doing or not doing to, to, to like, it's not like Oklahoma city is not trying to get turnovers, not swarming at the rim. Like what did they do to do that?

I think so. It was almost, I think, 30 minutes of game time before the Thunder had their first steal. Like, even those minimal turnovers were all dead ball side out, like taking all the momentum out of the possession. I think a big part of it and some of Indiana's like most successful stretches in the series have been obviously the kind of freewheeling way that they like to execute wears down all kinds of teams, mixes things up for all kinds of teams.

The moments where they've kind of simplified and attacked in some straighter lines, and they are one of the most dedicated teams in terms of feeding their bigs against smalls, for example. When Pascal or Turner get that seal inside, they are looking for those guys. But it applies in lots of different ways to attack. I think there's a way in which

making Tyrese Halliburton the decoy and running some more traditional kind of basic action, weird as that sounds, against a defense as ferocious as Oklahoma City, kind of simplified things in a way that simplified the reads that they were making and led to fewer of those like, I'm just caught and don't have anywhere to pass possessions that they were so guilty of in game five. So I agree with everything Rob just said.

And I was writing this down over and over again in my notes as the game was going along. OKC just wasn't pressuring them the same way. They weren't meeting them up at half court like they were, especially in the second half of game four. And then I thought the first half of game five where they were basically making them start the offense 35 feet from the basket. That's just, Indiana was starting the offense wherever they wanted in this game. It never ever, the pressure was never an issue in this game. I wonder how much of that was, they got called for a lot of early fouls.

And I wonder how much of that was like, they just started kind of pulling back a little bit, whether it was to avoid foul trouble or whatever you had to. And ultimately it just kind of facilitated the flow of the game for the Pacers. We said that after game four, right? When we were talking about once Dort and Caruso were getting away with the physicality, the game flipped once they realized that it was basically a football game. It was not a football game today. Caruso, by the way, an improbable minus 33 while he was on the floor. J-Tubb.

minus 40. The Thunder just don't ever have that happen to them. To answer my own question, I thought

They were like very smartly selective on throwing entry passes. Like, oh, Cason Wallace is fronting Pascal Siakam. You know what? We're like, let's pull it back out. They threw a few, but I thought that like they were like much more cautious and just saying this is like a 50-50 chance they're going to steal this. Let's just reset the offense, do something different. Yep. That's a really good point because we talked about this a couple games ago.

When SGA or Wallace was on somebody in the paint, like a bigger guy, and they would rope Indiana and throw in the entry pass. And every time they would tip it or jump around. And today we didn't see those passes. So that might have been part of it. I still feel like I promise you Dagnall, who's a pretty quiet guy. I don't know if either of you have a feel for him.

But I, he, he, he'll go nuts when he watches the defense tomorrow. I was like, this is just not who we are guys. If we're going to win the title, we got to take it. Um,

Why are you making a face, Ryan? I really think it was the offense more. This was the worst Thunder offensive game. That's not me hyperbolizing. That is the... Three-point shooting. By the numbers, their worst offensive game of the entire season. That's what the data says in terms of their efficiency in this game. And now some of that is coming from the other side of the ball. They're obviously bleeding into one another. Yeah.

And like you're not getting the free points if you're not forcing turnovers in exactly the way we've been talking about. But yeah, they have to be better in the half court, too. Like they have to find ways ultimately to score against this Pacers defense. And like you got to give Andrew Nembhard a ton of credit for that. You have to give the rotations as Zach was talking about pinpoint really precise execution. Like that is that's what it takes to win finals games like this. And I thought they were just more on that level than the Thunder were.

You know what the answer might be? It might have been their offense and their defense because they were down by 30 after the quarter. When you get down by 30, it's your offense, your defense, the other team playing awesome. That's how you get a 30-point blowout in the NBA Finals. But they're getting, what, 20 extra points a game off steals and, you know, all that. I do feel like that would get them going. Totally. I feel like Dort...

Dort and Caruso to me are the engines of this team because they always know for the most part in the vicinity of what they're going to get from SGA. And then Jalen Williams has just gotten better as the playoffs went along. His minus 40 today, notwithstanding, not to mention three days of Scottie Pippen comparisons, including on this podcast after game five. Scottie's like, hey guys, settle down. Let's have them win one first. But as we head to game seven, I'm trying to figure out

what OKC would have learned from this game from an off from how do we fix the offensive side standpoint, Zach? Because SGA had a couple where he drove left and he kind of got swallowed up, which I haven't seen many times this year where he, you know, he didn't get the push off stuff. He didn't get his at the rim stuff. It was weird. Oh, that. So that's going to be a little mini battle is that the Pacers have toggled on and off throughout the series and

We are going to double Shea when he gets to that spot on the left side of the floor. Today, they toggled it on. And Oklahoma City, with the exception of like one decent Aaron Wiggins kick out three, which he missed, did not look ready for it. They threw like Shea through passes late, like that got stolen. They just did not look prepared for it. And knowing Rick Carlisle, he might toggle it to like half off to start

Game 7 knowing that they're going to be looking for it. But just like more broadly, Bill, you and I have talked about this throughout the season. It does make me a little nervous that we're in Game 7 of the NBA Finals and it still doesn't feel like Mark Dagnall, through no fault of his own, through fault of injuries and personnel choices, doesn't quite have a feel for like

who should play with whom and for how long. So we start the series with Wallace for Hartenstein. We go back to Hartenstein in Holmgren. We start the second half today again with Caruso for Hartenstein. We get little dollops of like no big men at all, but only when we're down by 20 and the game is hopeless. The Wallace plus the Wallace version of the starting lineup, which is plus like a lot for the playoffs. I don't know if they even saw the floor at all today. It just it makes me.

a little uneasy that the Pacers are like, it's a little math or in here, shepherd here, but for the most part, the Pacers know exactly who they're going to play and when, and we've been talking about all year and it hasn't mattered because they're just so goddamn good. And their defense is so goddamn good. I just, I'm fast. Like, I don't, who's going to start for them in game seven. Who's going to start second half for them in game seven. Who's going to be like Isaiah Joe got unearthed again today, but only because they were down by 30. It just makes me a little uneasy. That's all.

Yeah, they did a little zone with an Isaiah Joe lineup. What was that in the third quarter? Which it's like, I just feel like, okay, so you should never have to play zone. It's one of the better defensive teams we've seen, but that it felt like they were, uh, I don't know, whiff desperate. It's a good point though. I,

You know, we didn't understand why they went away from the two bigs. Uh-oh. We lost Rob. We're live. We can do it. We can carry without Rob. Rob has a castron. Rob's back. Oh, no. Rob's back. That was Rob's impression of Oklahoma City's zone defense tonight. It popped up for one possession. Go on after that. Rob got hit by James Johnson. I heard one negative thing about Cason Wallace. I'm like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. I cannot stand this. So...

I'm with you that that lineup, that pit bull lineup they would play with Case and Wallace, like the numbers were actually pretty good for them. But we also have to understand why they didn't start the two bigs when that had worked all year. They went back to that, but now they suddenly went away from that lineup that was plus a lot. So I don't know. I wonder...

If you had to guess, would they start two bigs in this game seven, Rob, or would they go with the smaller lineup that they started with in a couple of the other games? I'm tempted to say if the Crusoe stint had gone better in the second half today, they would have gone to it. But the fact that it came out with no real impact on the game at all, I think might give Mark Dagnall some pause. I don't know.

Ultimately, that is, I think, functionally their best lineup. Like we've seen when Alex Caruso is having a maximized effect on these games. That's the Thunder really at their best. That's their best style. So you're talking Caruso, Dort, J-Will, SGA, and one big? I think they might do it. One big. I call that their A lineup, although the numbers are not spectacular. Right. Yeah. All right. We're taking a break for the podcast. We're going to keep going on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot.

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on work each week. Best of all, you can see results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.com slash AI to learn more. I'm just going to say this and I didn't bet on the, I have OKC series bets. So I didn't really, I stayed away from the game today for the most part. I thought OKC had solved Indiana and I thought they were going to win tonight pretty convincingly. And, uh,

I'm really surprised how that game turned out. And I guess I shouldn't be. The legacy of this Indiana team is don't ever be surprised. Don't ever count us out. Don't ever assume it's over. And yet I just felt like the Halliburton thing, it felt like he was going to try to play limp around. It wasn't going to go well. And more importantly, I just felt like OKC had unlocked something from the second half of game four on.

And then they lost it. And I don't, I, the only thing I can think of Zach is the rhythm of this finals with this, the fact that we're playing this over the course of 17 days with all these breaks, maybe it's really hard to get a rhythm in this new two, two, one, one, one, one, one that we have.

With all these breaks, I don't know. Like, what is the explanation? Well, I'd like to look back. Rob makes a great point about the early fouls. I was aware of it, but I didn't maybe zero in on it as carefully as I thought because, you know, there were two ways the Thunder could come out in this game. Way number one was what happened when they were just a little bit

skittish and just sort of out of rhythm on offense way number two was just like let's just pedal to the metal fly on defense take some risks just take the force to them to a point that might almost be dangerous for us on some possessions if a gamble goes wrong or whatever we fly we hit somebody and there's a foul I thought they would just let's just come out and overwhelm them with speed and force and they didn't they did not do that they just I mean

I don't know why, but again, credit to the Pacers. They played awesome and they took this game. And I was with you. I thought with the Halliburton situation, I didn't think Indiana was going to win the game. What about you, Rob? I thought the same. I think, frankly, the difference in what we saw from Halliburton was meaningful, not just in terms of how they managed his minutes, but how he managed those minutes. There was the possession where he gets Chet on a pump fake on a three, does a jump pass to Neesmith in the corner.

And in game five, that's like end of story for Tyrese Halliburton. He was not moving well enough. He would have stopped right there in this game. It turns into a give and go for a layup. And there were so many possessions like that for him where it's like he's continuing to play through whatever consecutive action Indiana is running. And now all of a sudden he is a decoy. He's not just a standstill shooter. He's someone who's actually changing the flow of play. And if he's able to do that, that's a meaningful thing. But

now that the Thunder are prepared for that, how do they come into a potential game seven? I think there's so many weird little psychological elements of this. Like all the skittishness we're talking about for the Thunder, how skittish are they going to be when their season is on the line too? Like how is that going to change the way that they play? Are they going to have that force? I expect Indiana... Indiana just plays its game. Like I just expect Indiana to come out and play like Indiana in game seven and just like the stage is the stage. They just play and it's...

They just keep playing. It's why they win these crunch time games. I don't expect them to look any different or any, any Oklahoma season. You have to win the game at home. Hmm. Albert had a really nice quick trigger three in the second quarter. That was a shot. He wasn't taking a lot in these finals where he just had a pick. He had a split second open in a shoot one and just shot it. And I remember thinking like,

It's a pretty good sign. Like if he can at least do that couple threes, he got into the paint. Like the Indiana people always talk about the paint touches with him. Watch the paint touches. Can you get in the paint? So he did that. Um, so okay. See big picture. This will be the second game seven out of four series.

They are now 68-14 in the regular season, 15-7 in the playoffs, 83-21. So, Rob, I know this is sad for you. They're now out of the 20 losses or less club, one of my favorite clubs that I created. I'm heartbroken. Do you have a different arbitrary line you would like to create for them? No, I think this is the right line because this includes the 96 Bulls, 87-13, 17 Warriors, 83-16, 97 Bulls, 84-17,

86 Celts and 87 Lakers, both 82 and 18. The 2015 Warriors, 83 and 20. And the 2013 Heat. Oh, no, they're not in there, actually. They're out. Sorry. That's the whole list.

And then it goes into the, like the under 80 win teams, like the 83, 60 to 71 bucks, et cetera. But they are now off that list. Much like the Celtics last year got bounced with that game four loss in Dallas. So historically, I think we were all struggling to wrap our heads around. OKC wins in six.

what was this team? Was this a great season? Was it something more? Was the beginning of something? But now, you know, I, I getting taken a seven by Denver and by Indiana where their best guys basically on one leg in the deciding, I don't know, not great for their, uh, for their legacy. Zach, look,

I did the same basketball reference, deep dives. I got it all written out on paper right here. All this list of teams, the great teams of all time, just, just to have it, just to have it ready. And you know what? I don't care. It's in the garbage. Now, the only thing I care about, the only record 20 losses, 80 wins, whatever. The only record I care about for the next 72 hours is,

is 3-3. That's, all that stuff is gone now. You got to win one game or your season is officially a disappointment. That's, that's where we are and you lose the championship at home. That's it. Well, there's a little more at stake for OKC, Rob. Sure. I mean, the 3-2 lead, blowing the 68-14 season and, and, uh,

losing at home, becoming the fifth team ever to lose at home in a game seven. It's almost like there's more pressure on them, even though they're the home team. I think you could read it both ways. And I think all of that is true. I also think if you were to bet which of these teams is more likely to be back in the NBA finals in the near future, I think the Thunder are probably the safer bet. That's no disrespect to the Pacers, but just like the reality of what the Thunder have built and the way it is constructed to last is

It's incredible. They're going to be good for a long time. We have every expectation of that. I just think in terms of what is actually at stake, all this legacy talk, how we're going to contextualize them. It's really cool if you can wrap up the finals in five or six games. Winning a game seven in the NBA finals is pretty fucking cool. And that can submit you in a different kind of immortality than basically anything else can. And so when you're talking about

winners. And we're talking about what stars do we compare Shea to if the Thunder were to go on to win or Tyrese Halliburton or Pascal Siakam, whoever goes on to win. Like there just is no bigger feather in a cap than this. All that matters is that you win in the end. Like all these discussions, it's like you either win or you don't. And all that matters is you win. It doesn't matter how you do it. It doesn't matter what the margin is because it's hard to

to get one. I mean, it's hard. It's like, by any measure, this team is incredibly well positioned to get multiple titles. I just think people are writing that, even with this team as well set up as they are, too casually. Like, it's hard to win a lot of NBA championships. Like, people are like, well, they can win three, four, five. Like, whoa. Like,

It's hard to win that many NBA championships. You got to get one. Think about what the 2021 title means to the Bucs. Like, everything's kind of been disarray since then. First round losses, trade rumors, all that. They got one. And that validates everything that came before. And it really lessens the pain of everything that comes after, no matter what it is. You got to get one before we start having these historical... Boston, you know, I...

Thanks for bringing them up. The best shot at breaking the no-repeat streak was going to be, I think, a goal of theirs to really cement their... To your point about historical context and not knowing how to place the 60-whatever-win Boston team from last year that had this margin, but they didn't feel like the 86 Celtics or whatever. One way to elevate yourself and to stamp that first championship is to repeat. And they talked about how much they...

Wanted to do that. They didn't get out of the second round of the playoffs and their best player got injured. Like it's really, really hard. You just got to win. Everything has to stop until you win one because one is still really hard to get. Well, one thing about game sevens, at least recent history, and we're going back. If you go post ABA merger, we've had 1978, 84, 88, 94, 05, 2010, 13, and 16. They're usually pretty close games.

They're usually really tense. They're ugly. Oh yeah. They're not like exceptionally well played. Um,

you look up and you're like, oh my God, is it the fourth quarter yet? And it's like two minutes into the second quarter. There's a weightiness to it. I was lucky enough to go to the 2010 one and the 2013 one. Were you lucky to be at that one? That's a lucky... I guess you were lucky. Well, I was lucky from loving basketball. I was absolutely miserable afterwards as the confetti dropped. That was miserable. But yeah, there's...

There's a weight that you can feel in those that I can't really describe. Everybody kind of, everybody who's in their seats, everybody who's on the benches, everybody who's on the court, they understand like this is like life altering stuff now. That if you win this, this is the rest of your life. If you lose it, you'll be thinking about it the rest of your life. They usually come down to one or two plays.

They usually come down to one random dude on one of the teams just getting hot or making some shot. Like in 2010, our test just hit that three and that kind of decided the game. Nobody in the arena wanted to take him. He took it in 2013. Did you go to that one, Zach? The game seven? No, I wasn't there. Which was an awesome game. Everybody remembers the Ray Allen shot, but the next game was really great. And Duncan had a little bunny shot.

from like five feet to tie the game with like 50 seconds left that he's made his entire life. And it didn't go in and he couldn't believe it. And they had to foul and he like sunk to the, I'll never forget. You smacked the floor. I think it sunk to the ground, punched the ground. Like he just couldn't believe it didn't go in. But a lot of times these games come down to that. These, you know, so I feel like this will be a good game. I don't think this will be usually in the earlier rounds. It's so-and-so wins by 30. I don't,

I don't see that happening in this game. What do you think, Rob? I'm in line with that. And to your point about the random role player or the random guy, like this is a Lou Dort, Aaron Neesmith, Alex Caruso, Andrew Nembhard kind of moment. Wiggins. This is a Wiggins six out of seven. Absolutely. And I think by extension, like in games that are that tense with that kind of physicality, they get that ugly.

that's also like a Pascal Siakam kind of moment. Like who is the most adaptable piece on the floor? Who is the guy who can do a little bit of everything? He's been in the finals before. Been in the finals before. Who's the guy you trust with three seconds left on the shot clock to hit a crazy turnaround that he has no business hitting just by the nature and the context of the possession. That's Pascal Siakam to me. Like those are the possessions that he manages to turn out through sheer versatility and

that almost no one else in the series can. Like J-Dub has some of that. Obviously, Shea is like an incredible shot maker. Like they're guys who can hit great shots. But I will be incredibly shocked if Pascal Siakam does not have exactly that kind of Swiss Army knife effect on game seven. Like that's just who he is is the impact he's had on these games. I'm going to throw out Matherin again too, who did nothing today and really hasn't done anything since that game three.

But I, my guess is Carlisle who's been in situations like this. He'll just, he'll just have like multiple grills on the oven going and he'll be like, I'm going to throw Matherin in the pan for two minutes here and just kind of see what happens. And what, what does Ben Shepard have going anything? And he'll sprinkle guys around until he sees somebody that he likes. Whereas OKC, I think Wiggins would be the, uh, you know, especially at home.

And then the defense of Dorian Caruso, I would say, would be the other two. But, you know, this could also be a situation where like Shea is just awesome. Jalen Williams is just awesome. I love game sevens. It's crazy to me. Can you name the four teams that have won one? On the road? Yeah. Cavs, right? Cavs is the most recent one. 2016 Cavs. The Festa Sizzili Classic.

Oh, come on. Six straight points trapped 25 feet from the basket against one of the greatest sports of all time. Your 1969 Boston Celtics is one. The 74 Celtics in Milwaukee coming off Kareem Skyhook in game six where it seems like they blew the series. And then the fourth one. I'm really trying to get it. Not a lot of buzz for this series. Might have even been taped away. The 1978 Bullets Sonics. Wow. Classic. Classic.

Uh, bullets went on the road. Dennis Johnson, Oh, for 14 pre Twitter. So, you know, I, I, I don't think he took a huge beating. Seattle comes back the next year, wins the title. Um, and that's it. Those are the four. We've had some close ones. Like 2013 Spurs came damn close. 2010 Celtics. That was down to the last minute. Uh, that Oh five Spurs Pistons game was, uh,

Was a rock fight, but was still pretty close with two minutes left. Nobody liked that series. We should do an off-season project of re-watching 2005 Pistons Spurs. Everyone hated it. It went seven. It was super intense. There's a huge Ori shot in there somewhere, I think. Game five. Yeah, the wrong teams are in the series because...

I mean, Indiana was the best. Ironically, our test was in the arena tonight because the Pacers had everyone back, including our test. And I guess there's no line anymore for who gets invited back because facts are facts. Like he started a huge riot in a game, got spent it for the season and cost them the title. And they're like, Ron, welcome back. Here's Pacers Jersey. But I thought the 05 Pacers were the, I thought they were probably the best team that year. And then Miami was really good too. And Wade got hurt. Yep.

And we just kind of ended up with this Piston Spurs. Duncan was hurt. It was a weird one. It was just one of those years. Zach, your idea is both a great editorial idea and also Spotify insurance does not cover the mental. Rewatchables 2005 finals is not going to happen. No, it was a rock fight. The horror game was really good, though. No, but I think that was one of those years where we were like, thank God for the Suns.

At least we get to watch one team run a fast break and do some stuff. The 94 Rockets next game was another one that was a rock fight.

Um, 88 Lakers Pistons is really fun. 84 Lakers Celtics was, you know, pretty famous game. 88 Lakers Pistons game seven in LA. Is that the, the controversial Lambeer foul on Kareem at the end of the game? Is that that game? Controversial? Do you, do you mean easy? I was just, I was teeing you up. Okay. Like an absolute abomination. Yeah.

A slight touch foul and a cream sky hook to decide the title? Let me tell you because I've done it. If you bring that up to Joe Dumars, it's like you just be prepared for like 12 minutes of commentary. There's two terrible calls because there's that. And then they have the ball at three, like five seconds left. They inbound it after two free throws. The fans storm the court as the final play is going on where they have a chance to get a three off.

And Magic decks Isaiah and they just, they're like, let's get out of here. And they just kind of end the game. It's unprecedented. It's unbelievable to watch. Anyway, so 16 Cleveland was the last one. That was the last one in almost 50 years. And that had, you know, LeBron, one of the two best players of all time. That had Curry who was hurt. That had Andrew Bogut was out. It was an absolute rock fight.

And it had Kyrie make one of the great final shots in the last minute. And the Warriors still almost won that game. It was a rock fight for everybody but Draymond Green somehow. Made like a million threes. 34, yeah. Forgot about that. So, yeah, could Indiana be the fifth team ever? I guess what we've learned in the playoffs this year is do not count them out. I'm done counting them out. What do you think the line is, Rob?

I think you're not a huge gambling guy. I think the Thunder are favored for sure. I mean, one thing we have not said, the Thunder at home is a very different enterprise. And that is a home court advantage. I do genuinely believe in that. It actually does make a tangible difference on the flow of the game. I think they are probably favored by four and a half points. That would be my guess. It's minus eight and a half. I was going to go higher. I was going to go higher than four and a half. See, no one respects the Pacers, even Vegas.

Yeah. Eight and a half. That's probably the lowest they've been favored at home. All right. So let's do, um, let's do a morning TV segment. Zach, why, who has the most at stake in game seven? The most at stake. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'll take the bait. I'll take the bait. Most at stake in game seven. Yeah. Uh,

It's Shea Gilgis Alexander. It's capping an MVP season with a championship. And I think he's probably still the favorite to win finals MVP. And yeah, he'll have other chances, right? But nothing is guaranteed in this life. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA. No one on the Pacers team

Other than like Rick Carlisle, maybe it has this sort of like what what would like they're all so young in their careers. I guess you could say Halliburton immediately elevates himself into or sets himself up to be elevated into different kinds of conversations. It's got to be Shay, right? Was there any other answer to this?

I think Shea makes sense. I mean, he's in a position if they do win, as far as guys who have won a title and an MVP before they turn 27, that's like a very, very select group of players. That's Bill Walton, since the merger, Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Steph, the underachieving Giannis Antetokounmpo,

and potentially Shea. That is a rare class of player that he could thrust himself in with an achievement like that. Any nominee? Anyone want to name it? Paul George or the Clippers front office? Paul George rooting for Indiana, right? Paul George's legacy is all over this series. So I have one more name for what's at stake. Sam Preston. Sure. That's a good one.

It's a good one. Does that mean related to what I just said? The best GM of the last 20 years. Up 3-2. He's been knocking at the door really since 2012 in a bunch of different ways. And this seemed like the year it was going to happen. And I do not think he's sleeping tonight, would be my guess. But if they lose, it's more that what does he have to gain? Like clinching his place in history. It's like if they lose game seven, you'd be like, man, he really messed up this team. Yeah.

No, yeah, it wouldn't be that, but it would be more like, wow, who's done a better job in basketball over a longer stretch without actually having a payoff with the title? Although we learned from LeBron last week, rings don't matter anymore. Ring culture. Is that what he said? What did he say? Ring culture is stupid? I'm not letting you suck me into any of this. I don't think that's what happened. So SGA right now is in this, if he wins the title, people who average at least 30 a game,

and won the title. And it's not a long list. And it includes Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kareem, Shaq, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, Giannis, Kobe, and Jokic. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, I would say he has the best. 30 a game in the playoffs, right? 30 a game in the playoffs. Okay, because I was like, Hakeem, 30 points a game, and I had that. Yeah, 30 a game in the playoffs. So, that's it. There's a slight Jalen Williams could do a big game James Worthy in the seventh game. That's true. And have that kind of...

you know why is that just slight he just had 40 points it's a game seven it's you know i'm saying like james worthy had an iconic game game seven right he won the uh did he win finals i can't remember

But that's always been the James Worthy game. Although I remember it the way Zach did as the, I can't believe they called that foul on Liam Beard game. And why doesn't anyone care that people are jumping on the court? So we'll see what happens. Zach, did you care about the Lakers selling for a valuation of $10 billion, not actually $10 billion? I cared about the Lakers selling. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of tentacles to that and how it could go going forward and the gradual,

exiting of the bus family from you know total control of the team i think that's that's very interesting i don't want to talk about it yet can we talk about the finals for two more minutes okay what else do you have give me they just updated the stats okay on nba.com and i just want to read the offensive ratings for the series indiana 109.5 oklahoma city 110.5

That is about the equivalent of the Utah offense against the New Orleans offense in the regular season. I just want to tip my cap to both defenses because this has been a defensive series and both of them have stepped up to the plate, including Indiana. Like those are pretty stark. Like these offenses have kind of been ground into nubs in this series. Like that's pretty impressive stuff. That's all I wanted. I just saw the numbers. I wanted to say that before we talked about

The Lakers. Rob? Who do you think we... I don't want to say underestimate in terms of the Pacers' defense, but maybe you weren't categorizing correctly because you look at the Thunder defense, obviously in the regular season, the numbers were what they were. Their success was what it was. It drove a 68-win juggernaut season, that defense. And you could look up and down, J-Dub, second-team all-defense, Lou Dort, first-team all-defense, or at least worthy. And that's not saying nothing about guys like Caruso and Hartenstein who might have made it if they had been healthier.

You never really hear any of that with the Pacers. You never really hear it about Andrew Nembhard or Aaron Neesmith or Miles Turner or Pascal Siakam. And I'm wondering, like, what is it that we are missing if it's in terms of individual talent? Or is it just the kind of collective play and the way those guys are able to work off of each other? Like, what is it that it's been able to elevate their defense in the way that it has? I guess my thought on that would be they try so freaking hard consistently.

Which I think is like, it was JJ had that quote during the season when they asked him, what did he learn coaching a team? And he's like, the number one thing I've learned is that you have to try really hard. And when you don't, it gets really hard. Like he had one of those quotes like that. It was like, I've learned that over everything else. How important effort is. It sounds stupid, but effort matters the most. In Indiana, for whatever reason, those guys play really, really hard all the time. So, you know, you look at the guys individually, Nembhard's not, he doesn't have a ton of size.

Right. But he's able to stay with SGA. Like TJ McConnell, you would never think of him as like a lockdown defender. Toppin certainly has never been accused of being an awesome defensive player. You're going down the line and it doesn't really make sense. I do think Neesmith feels like he's finally moving the way he did before he hurt his ankle in that Knicks series because he had a couple of those threes.

When you know, and Zach and I know this because we've watched the highlights on New Smith Island together. Those threes he hit when he's running full speed stops in the corner with it and just put so much torque on his lower body, but then could still get off these threes. And I didn't feel like he was doing that for about two weeks there with his

with his ankle and he seems healthy to me now. How are you? There's a statue of that on Neesmith Island, a contested like three leaning three. Yeah. Was there power on Neesmith Island or were these highlights like shadows on the cave wall? Like how are you watching? We had a generator. Okay. There's a drive-in theater right in the middle of the island now. You can drive your car up, sit and have a couple of drinks and just watch highlights of Aaron Neesmith. Is there another island we need to start after the success of Neesmith Island?

Is there anybody you had your eye on, Zach? How long do you want this podcast to be? I don't know. Is there a number one draft pick for you? I don't know. I wasn't prepared for that question. I didn't think hard about it. Pacers defense, 2-3-4 of their starting lineup, just rock solid across the board. Maybe not an all-defense level player among them, although maybe, but just rock solid.

How LaBert has just amped up his effort to a new level throughout the entire playoffs. Like he's always going to be the liability, the weak link, but he has just the way he rotates around the floor and contest shots. He's a, he's a different guy than he was last season. And I would love to go and look at schematically exactly what Indiana is doing.

Because if you look at like people have stopped kind of talking about because the Thunder have been winning games, how low their passes per game numbers are in the series. They've stayed super low, even as the Thunder appeared to have taken control of the series. And over and over again, we see these games where they don't move the ball. They don't get assists. They don't generate threes. And it's like, what?

What is what is their team and their coaching staff doing and what are they not doing to continue to coax the thunder into this like trap of mud where they just get nothing easy? And I don't know the answer to that. I do know that this is probably the reason why after all of the talk before the series was, well, Indiana, you know, they they'll spring a zone here and there. This is said they've played no zone at all.

Because I think they're just like, all his own is going to do is give them easy passes all over the floor and space all over the floor. And as long as they're not doing that against our man to be like, we're just not going to it, but it's much more complicated than that. But they have gummed up Oklahoma city in the same way.

every game to the point that if Oklahoma City doesn't get the 20 points in transition off of turnovers, like this is the kind of results you're going to get. And I would love to go deeper into, I would love to know more about what they're doing, basically. Well, I think some of it is what you mentioned earlier, Zach, about the fact that Rick Carlisle can, for example, toggle how much they're doubling Shea. Game to game, moment to moment, quarter to quarter, stretch to stretch, whatever it may end up being. They're just one of those defenses that is not any one thing. And I say that even to mean like, who is their go-to stopper?

One series is Aaron Neesmith because Nembhard doesn't really have as much of a shot guarding Jalen Brunson. In this series, even despite what you may think of like who Shea is physically and the defenders who profile well against him, Nembhard's been great.

And in some series, it's Siakam. And in some series, like you're just really relying on the help and the rotation of all those guys. And so I think there is an element of you're never quite sure what to expect from them. You're never quite sure coming into a series between games. Do we have it nailed down the way that they are going to guard this exact action? I don't think anyone does. And I think that's a huge part of what makes a bunch of really smart, physical, intuitive defenders be wildly successful in a run like this. Yeah, Zach's toggle thing.

It's actually a football. It's like a cornerback blitz or like a safety, but like where you kind of know a blitz is coming. Maybe, maybe it's not coming. Oh no, it's going to come a lot. Nope. It's not coming anymore. And that seems like what they're trying to do to SGA and they're sending those late blitzes at them. It's pretty cool to watch. Um, Zach, my broker, I'll call you tomorrow that there's some opportunity on Cam Whitmore Island. If he's in the Phoenix trade, I don't know if you're interested, maybe a,

Maybe a cabin? I mean, he could average 20 points a game in a snap. He might not win all that much. Rob, let us know if you want. I'm in. He was, I want to say, the first or second overall pick in our group chat expansion draft exercise this year. A lot of Cam Whitmore fans over on group chat, we believe.

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That's linkedin.com slash Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Did you want to talk about the Lakers? I rudely swayed the discussion away from the Lakers. It seemed like you wanted to talk about the Lakers. Well, it was the most interesting thing that's happened since the last time I've talked to you. And I haven't talked to Rob this whole finals. Just something that had been rumored for a while.

And especially after Mark Walter bought the 27% in 2021 and he had the hammer, if they ever tried to sell. And I was like, well, if they ever sell, it's going to be to this guy. And then the Celtics sale happens. And it's like, hmm. And there had been some buzz. And then out of nowhere, it happened. And I'm not positive it was out of nowhere because there had been some rumblings. But given the fact that he had the big stake already,

And then the bus family kept 18%. So he only had to buy another 48% to get that majority stake. So he slapped down the 4.8 billion. It seems like it's 10, but it's half that. It's still like a crazy amount of money for a team that doesn't own an arena. And I had the same reaction with the Celtics. Like,

Even though I knew the number was going to be the number, I'm still like kind of staggered. They have a lease that goes through Staples Center until 2041. I think the rest of the league, and you're already seeing stuff that being mentioned and written about, the Lakers notoriously really frugal for a team that was the signature franchise in the league. There were millions of stories. They are but a mom and pop franchise, Bill. Yeah. They're being run like the local drugstore in Pasadena. And meanwhile, they're the biggest drugstore in America. Yeah.

And, and people are wondering, well, what if that changes? What does that mean? I still feel like they were spending a lot of money, Rob. It's not like they were cheap and out of a luxury tax, but it will be interesting to see if what, what this group was able to do with the Dodgers professionalizes the Lakers in the same way, what that's going to mean. I think it's pretty scary. Yeah. I think they're spending a lot of money and then there's caution to the wind level money. Yeah.

there is. We're just going to try to blow this thing over the top. And that can get you, as the Phoenix Suns can attest, into some really deep water sometimes, take you to some really dark places as a franchise. I think there's the Lakers element of the story. And then there's the larger, like, there is a whole class of NBA owners and governors who are now selling and migrating out of that business. I think some of that is just those valuation numbers going up and up and up to a point where you just can't say no anymore, realistically, to something like that. But it's

Is this something that a lot of people are getting out of the NBA owning business? That this is the time that they have selected to say Lakers, Celtics, Mavericks, Hornets. Who else has sold recently? I mean, the Wolves is going to be kind of a protracted process. The Suns, of course. So I've heard this argument, and I think if you go case by case, each one actually makes sense individually and doesn't seem like part of a larger trend. Like the Celtics won.

Wick's dad wanted to sell and he owned the biggest chunk of the team and he's hitting his nineties and he wanted to get his estate in order. And that was it. They won the title. He wanted out. The Mavericks thing was super weird for a bunch of reasons. They had a bunch of organizational stuff going on. Mark Cuban might want to run for president. Um,

I don't know if that was, and I want to get ahead of this whole media rights thing. This is the perfect time. I actually think he probably would have been better off holding on for a year or two more. Timberlake's thing, that guy regretted it the moment he agreed to the deal. He was trying to get out of it for three years. The Suns, they made Sarver sell. So this is the first one where...

What is Portland's in that group too? Although that's been another kind of long, just like that. Yeah. That was like a family. The guy was, the guy died and left it to the family. I think with, when you have these, a lot of siblings and a family and siblings getting older and they started thinking about the estate tax stuff, I think it does change. Like they look at him like, Hey, we can cash in now. We split all the money and there's ways to do it. But Zach, you think going forward with the Dodgers owning the Lakers basically in Luca Donchic in there,

This is a pretty safe bet to be a dominant franchise now, I would say, for the next 10 years because they've proven they can do this with the Dodgers. Well, I mean, people are going to laugh at the idea that, you know, what do the Lakers need more? I mean, they're the Lakers. There's a reason Laker exceptionalism, stars just fall into their lap all the time. Like they already had this baked in advantage. And

if the NBA is not baseball, you can't spend on payroll infinitely. Um, there's, there's a cap and a hardish cap and it's not baseball, but you can spend on all the other stuff, which is like something bomber is doing. So that's the point. That's the point is all of this stuff that the Lakers have not spent on commensurate with their place in the market, whether it's analytics, scouting video, all the fancy stuff, like it's, it's,

Kind of cute to make fun of that. Like, oh, is that really going to help the Lakers? Like the Lakers need help? Is it really going to help on the on the fringes of the roster? Because they'll miss on a lot of those moves on the fringes of the roster. But the point is, like over time, if you set yourself up to just make better decisions on roster spots, five to 15, you're

over 10, 20, 30 years, you will in the aggregate make better decisions on roster spots five to 15. And that is where all the spending, I think, will matter. And there's just, I think it's super, I think it's super interesting. I just think the bus family Game of Thrones thing is really interesting. I think the bus, like, like,

Jerry Buss, obviously, he's been passed away for a while, but that class of owner is leaving. And you talked about people getting out of the NBA business. These prices are like, there's only so many people that can even get into the NBA business right now. Even to buy like 5% of these teams is an enormous amount of money. And it just is going to open the door for like, what kind of funds are going to get more involved? Are we moving more in that direction? Because we're just running. You can only go to Larry Ellison so many times and be like, hey,

You want $8 billion? You want a team? Like, there's just not many of those people. Yeah, and it seems... Oh, go ahead, Rob. I was going to say, it feels telling. Like, the Lakers are in their own class, as we've decided, or discussed in terms of what their appeal is to players and what their place is in the league. Like, they are a unique case. But we're coming off a week in which Desmond Bain showed up at the practice facility in Orlando and was like,

This isn't what it's like in Memphis. And coming off a week in which there was a clip of DeJounte Murray going around talking about how he couldn't even get time on the training table in New Orleans. The Pelicans are like a whole separate thing. Totally separate thing. But all of which is to say there is lots of room on the margins to do things that

are meaningful to your bottom line as an organization, are meaningful to players, are meaningful to your success as a franchise that are right there. Spending on training facilities, spending on a practice facility, spending on assistant coaches, spending on analytics, all of that stuff is within any owner's theoretical grasp if they would care to do it. And everyone pinches pennies somewhere and tightens the belt buckle somewhere else. But that stuff is right there for the taking for any owner who wants to do it.

Yeah. And I think I feel comfortable saying this. I think they succeeded the last 20 years, despite the ownership situation, the Lakers. I also think I really do. I feel like, well, was it all the litigation? And like, well, if LeBron doesn't decide in 2008, you know, 2017 range, I'm going to go to the Lakers. I want to move all my operations there.

They're just a mess like any other team. They would have had all these weird lottery picks. They would have had to try to figure out how, you know, they picked second three years in a row. Then they traded all the rest of their picks for Anthony Davis. Like, I feel like they succeeded despite the ownership situation. Now, granted, they just made one of the best trades in the history of professional sports. So you can't criticize it too much, but I'm just saying like what the Dodgers have done and what that ownership group has done for that team.

if they can figure out how to do something similar in basketball and the same kind of advantages, Zach, I just feel like this is going to be different. A couple of things on what you just said. I think because LeBron went there and then LeBron's agents basically got Anthony Davis to join him there. Yes. The whole like,

five or six straight years when they were out of the playoffs and a total disaster and the Nick Young, DeAngelo Russell-like thing happened and all of that. That was a long time. That was like a Charlotte Hornets, Sacramento Kings stretch of like, what the hell is going on here? This is like 27, 35 win seasons. And there was no guarantee it would end. And then LeBron came and then AD came. And to my earlier point, they got one.

And that's a big deal to get one. They got one. And now they've been handed this life raft to the post LeBron era in, in Luca, but like, they're going to have to, it's not like the West is no joke. It's there. It's not like they're guaranteed a title any in the next five years, just because they got Luca, they're going to have to work to get it. The other big thing that happened this week, since the last time I saw you, Zach, and we haven't talked about this at all, Rob is we thought it Kevin Durant trade would happen by now.

By all accounts, the offers are not good. I'm checking my phone just in case. When you see me looking down, I'm just looking for just in case. The word on the street is the offers have sucked. And they made the classic mistake of basically what happened with David Griffin last year in New Orleans, right? It's like, can't have this roster anymore. We've got to make some moves. And the rest of the league is like, oh, you got to make some moves, huh? Heard you had to make some moves. Yeah, here's my crappy offer.

I don't know how this KD thing plays out anymore, Rob. I would assume it's going to be Houston. And I would assume it's maybe it's going to be a shortened version of the trades. Russell and I were talking about on Sunday and maybe it's just Jabari Smith and, and Jalen green and Jalen green gets rerouted somewhere. And maybe that's the entire trade. But at some point the price becomes low enough that if you're Phoenix and

you might have to go, look, KD, we try to trade you. There were no good deals. We're keeping you. I think that's easier said than done, though, with the Jalen Green aspect of that. Like, nesting dolling the Jalen Green trade saga within the Kevin Durant trade saga and trying to find the third team that's super high on Jalen Green. It's very hard. I think it's quite challenging. And I can understand. Houston, for Kevin Durant, I would love to see it. I think it makes a ton of basketball sense. Granted, obviously,

you know, the varying levels of agreement within that organization as far as like who is gung-ho about that move and who is more patient about it. I get all of it. I think they have proven defensively and in terms of the core of that team that they are ready to take a step forward, that they're ready to consolidate some of that talent with exactly a player like Kevin Durant.

And so there should be, I think there should be a lot of will on Houston side to get it done. I understand why they might be like slow playing that market and why Phoenix would be kicking the tires on everyone to the point that like, have we already rounded the corner to Detroit being in this conversation? Is that a thing yet? Cause I feel like they could be in this conversation if they care. I've been banging this drum for two weeks, three weeks. Like why not? Come on. Well, there have to be some prize in there other than the Tobias contract.

Of course. Yeah. Just a matter of who you like. Are you a Ron Holland? Jaden Ivey? I don't know. I still like Jabari. It feels like a great ending. It feels like a great ending for Kevin Durant's sort of strange meandering career post-OKC is like,

this random franchise that's been kind of in purgatory to bad for quite a long time in this market that doesn't draw free agents. What if Kevin Durant and Cade Cunningham and Asar Thompson and Jalen Duren made the finals one year for the Detroit Pistons? It's a perfect ending. What if he saves the American auto industry? You know, I think there's lots of options on the board for us that could be very exciting. The Chrysler Durantula coming to his Chrysler. I'll tell you this. I'd want to be in the East if I was anybody who's

I guess Durant's already won some rings, so maybe he's looking for basketball happiness. You guess? He's already won some rings? No, I'm just saying he doesn't have to chase some other guys. A burner account is going to tweet something just because you said that. I know he's won some rings. Sorry, Kevin Durant. Please don't at me. No, but I think he's probably looking for basketball happiness more than, I have one more chance. I need my third ring because...

So-and-so only has two. I don't think he thinks that way. The most interesting part of the Houston-Phoenix negotiations to me, which I assume just comes down to Phoenix identifying two or three things they'd like thrown in and Houston trying to hold on to two of those three things or whatever it is, is the 2027 Suns draft pick. Because in trading for Kevin Durant,

I'm probably making your team worse in the short term, you know, for the next couple of seasons at least, and giving you a puzzle that you've got to build your way out of before that 2027 draft pick comes due. And I'd like to keep it. Like, I'd like to keep that pick. And, you know, I assume Phoenix is absolutely dead set on getting it back. And I just think that's a really delicious little piece of, like, I would love to be on those phone calls.

Well, we're at the point now where it seemed like there were three teams like, like leaving Indiana this weekend. It seemed like it was a three team race. He said he picked his teams. All right, here we go. Now it feels like eight teams might be involved. Like I'm prepared for anybody. Like you threw Detroit out. I don't think that's.

That's crazy. I think they should be. I don't think it's... The Toronto Lurkers? The Toronto Lurkers? The Toronto Lurkers? The Toronto Lurkers? Zach, I wish you cared about the draft because the Ace Bailey saga is the other way. I care. I've been on the phone for all of the last two days. The Ace Bailey saga. This has not really happened since like Amari Stoudemire 20 years ago where...

Somebody just refused to work out for teams. Yeah. What level of no-show are we talking about? Are the restaurant reservations made and he's just not going on the trip and they have to cancel everything? How far in the process is he getting? Daryl Moore is just sitting by himself at a table. Sir, it's been two hours. I don't think your party's showing up. I think Daryl loves this. This is like, oh, this is your challenge? You made a draft? No, I'm going to do this. You think I'm afraid? You think you're scaring me, Spilly? I...

Listen, it seems like he has a pretty shaky representation around him. I'll say that. It seems to be the word in the street. They're doing things a little unconventionally, maybe in the wrong way. Conspiracy Bill's wondering if he's just trying to push himself to Brooklyn at number eight. I don't think he's getting there.

Number eight. You don't think he's getting there? I don't think he's getting there. I don't think Noah... You know what? Look, at Conspiracy, there's a lot of... Kostadomir fell to nine. Conspiracy Bill should be just having a blast with the Ace Bailey thing because there's like seven different Ace Bailey conspiracies floating around the league and the top 10 teams in the draft. And my net conclusion to putting all the conspiracy theories together and meshing them into a ball is I don't think you would get to eight, but maybe I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, I would guess...

Someone in that Pelicans, Wizards is talking. The Wizards have to take him. They just have to. But on the other hand, that's the kind of selection that has ruined the Wizards slash Bullets for the last 40 plus years. But it's interesting. It's a really fun, old school, completely hit or completely miss prospect where you could see all these different...

scenarios for it. But yeah, that's been a talk of the league as well. And it'll also be interesting to see if I think people are expecting maybe Philly will move backwards a spot or two spots to try to pick up some extra assets, dump a contract, you know, that Utah, the who knows with this stuff on, on social media, what's true and not true, but that whole moving back two spots with Utah, giving them Paul George, you

Utah moves up two spots. I just don't know why Utah would want to even move up two spots. So there's the thing. If Ace Bailey is now has gone from number three pick to where is he going to get picked? What is you? And so now the whole three to eight is just shuffle it up. You know, some guys will go higher. I think Trey Johnson's probably climbed a little higher or whatever, but like, yeah, if I'm Utah, why am I knowing the draft this year? Jesus. Look at that. If it's, if it's unpredictable, it's,

If it's unpredictable and I don't have a grip on it as a GM, why am I paying a premium to move up? If I don't know if the guy I'm paying a premium for might, maybe I do it on the clock. I, you know, it could just be an on the clock kind of thing. And that it has to happen that way. You're doing it. If you love edge comb, that's the thing. If you feel like we have to leapfrog somebody to get edge comb, that's when you would do it. But I still think three years of Paul George also putting Paul George in Utah. What if he doesn't want to go?

Do you think he would? That way? I'm kidding. How many times can you relocate the Podcast P studios? It's like two U-Hauls. Like...

I don't know. We'll see. We'll see what happens.

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The roadie 15 is perfect. It even fits wine bottles. Find your cooler and gear up for summer with Yeti hard coolers. All right, fellas prediction for game seven. Do you have one yet? Okay. See by a ladder by a little or something else. Okay. See you by a little, I'm going to go. Okay. See rock fight. Um, close game for three plus quarters. And then maybe they pull away and went by, uh, the seven to nine range. Zach.

OKC's up two with 10 seconds to go. Halliburton takes a jump shot and the screen goes to black like the ending of The Sopranos. And I don't know what happens for like the rest of our lives. Just like some cataclysmic event occurs and the finals are over. Well, I'll tell you this. If Indiana wins game seven, it will be the first team mentioned when we talk about like the Hickory High type thing.

craziest sports movie type teams that actually won the NBA title. They'll be mentioned first. If they win game seven, I'm drinking on the podcast after the game. I will do the podcast with a drink because it'll just be such...

an incredible start to finish run of crazy finishes and you counted us out and shots that go up to the ceiling and go in. I'm drinking on the podcast if they win. Indiana wins and then they go, ratings were the lowest it's ever been for a game seven and we have to do that whole thing. It's like, yeah, this was a fucking awesome basketball series. Fuck everybody. I think if they do win, they would be

probably like the team of my lifetime, to be honest with you in terms of the run that they've been on. Like I, there's nothing like it. There is, there is no comparison. It only happens in baseball. We see it happen in baseball where an offense can just get hot for, you know, three weeks and one pitcher is pitching well. And they're like, Oh my God, we just won the world series. Like the 2013 Red Sox were a little bit like that. Um,

It never happens in basketball. Nope. I didn't make a real prediction. I guess you guys did. So I should make one. I'll just, I'll cop out and go, okay, see when it's a very close game. That would, that seems to be the most likely of many, many different scenarios, but I'm officially at the stage where like almost nothing would surprise me about this series. Nothing, no outcome. Do you like my revised final schedule of going Thursday, Saturday, three days off,

Game three, Tuesday. Game four, Thursday. You had three days off in there somewhere? Just between game two and game three for the travel. So Sunday, Monday, and then part of Tuesday off. And then you're playing Tuesday night. No, Thursday, Saturday. Yeah. And then we go Tuesday, Thursday. And then we just go Sunday, game five, Tuesday, game six, Thursday, game seven. Let's go. Unless I'm wrong, that's only two days off between games two and three, not three.

Sunday, Thursday, Saturday, and then Tuesday, Sunday, Monday off. Right. What I'm hearing is this sounds a lot like your podcast schedule.

Like you just want to align the NBA finals with your pot. That would be a great idea. I've been like that more now. Look, I am on team 2-3-2 needs to come back. 2-3-2 makes the finals. I have a lot of arguments for it. I am pro 2-3-2. You've done this. Yeah, you've done that. You're a catalyst for this one. I've been on. I love 2-3-2. And I...

It allows you to have the two days of rest fewer times than happens in 2-2-1-1-1. I think you could... I'm going to go through it on a later date, but I love 2-3-2. I never have really understood. The two big arguments against 2-3-2, neither of which is... Hollinger wrote about this 15 years ago. There's the argument that, well...

it's unfair to the top seed because the top seed should always have game five at home. And then it's like, well, it's unfair to the lower seed because it's impossible to win three straight games at home. Well, who is it unfair to? The answer is it's not really unfair to anybody more or less than the 2-2-1-1-1. 2-3-2. Rob?

2-3-2 or 2-2-1-1-1? How about 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1? How about we go the other way? I am but a media member, so I'm always rooting for less travel, especially when, as Zach said, there's no real actual reason for it to be 1-1-1 by the end. I like parking in a place. I like laying some roots. Let me hang out in a final city over the course of those three games on the road. I think there's a lot of reason for it. It is true. If it was 2-3-2, we would have gone to all three Indiana games.

and had a great time. Yeah. I like Indiana. I miss that place. Great milkshakes in the Garden Square Arena, whatever the hell that place is called. I heard you compare it to a cocaine bump and I was just like, wow. Yeah. If you have a milkshake at 10 o'clock at night, you're basically Vincent Hanna and he just doing bumps at three in the morning at PJ's and Alvarado. Garden Square Arena is definitely not what the Gamebridge Fieldhouse is called. Just for the record. Yeah.

I like cards for Rita. All right. Zach Lowe, Rob Mahoney. Glad we finally did one of all three of us together. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday with another podcast. Zach, do you know your schedule yet or no? I don't know. It's just going to happen. Your schedule's up in the air. Plus TV's a mess with the Prestige TV. Well, we got group chat coming tomorrow morning. I'm going to go second watch this game and then we're going right back to it. Right back to it with more takes.

You're the best. Thanks to everybody for listening here and watching on YouTube. And we'll see you over the weekend. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC gambling problem. Call 100 gambler, visit rg-help.com call 1-887-897-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat.

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