Matt Gray & Russell Brunson: Rewiring Your Subconscious for Business Breakthroughs | #Marketing - Ep. 47
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What's up everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the show. I hope you're all having an amazing day today and excited to be hanging out with you. So a couple of weeks ago, I did a podcast episode with Matt Gray and he actually flew out to Boise and I got to interview him and it was a great conversation. And then afterwards, he wanted to do a podcast on his channel. He's like, what do you want to talk about? And I'm like, well, if I get to choose what I want to talk about, I want to talk about how your subconscious mind either holds you back from success or it's the thing that propels you towards success. And

He started geeking out. I was geeking out and, um, we had, we had so much fun. So that's what this episode is. Uh, you can go watch it on his channel, but, uh, thought it would be fun to replay it here as well. So you guys can just hear the conversation and hopefully give you some ideas. Um, we're going deep right now in, uh, all things success and subconscious mind and a whole bunch of other cool things that we have coming out for you guys later on towards the end of summer.

And so this will be kickoff towards those conversations. I hope it gets you guys excited. So I appreciate you all. Thanks for listening. Thanks for hanging out and enjoy this episode with me and Matt Gray. This is the Russell Brunson show. Well, first off, this is amazing because you just gave me, which is a huge gift. So thank you. I am really excited. What if I told you that the biggest bottleneck in your business isn't your strategy? It's your subconscious. Today, I'm going to go and meet up with my mentor and friend, Russell Brunson, and we're

And we're going to dive into how your subconscious can either be the biggest contributing factor to your success or it can actually sabotage their success. These are all the subconscious feelings, right? If I want to be a millionaire or a billionaire, whatever the next level is for you, it's like, what does a billionaire believe differently than I believe? We're trying just a lot of like,

trial and error around that, seeing like what sticks. You got me so excited. We're going to show how your subconscious can influence things like your marketing, your content, your sales. And when you get it dialed in, it's going to help propel you to your goals and help you avoid

massive failures that are in front of your face every single day. I never thought about the subconscious belief and building it that direction is fascinating. We're going to share a lot of different tactics and systems that I haven't shared anywhere else. And I also learn a ton of things that help me go and avoid sabotaging my own success. So I can't wait for you to see this. Let's

Let's get into it. I feel like I've uncovered something that I think we're both into, but I'm sure in very, very different ways, which is the power of the subconscious mind and its influence on different aspects of business and your personal life. We're excited to talk about it. Yeah, exactly. Get into it. We've got kind of the subconscious side of things, let's say, mindset side, and curious to dive into some

of your kind of like practices, tactics, what you've seen really work. Cause obviously we got the sales side, which I know is something that you're super passionate about. And then the content side of things, which is something that we're both really passionate about. From reading over the years, from mentors, podcasts, and just talking with

Hello, entrepreneurs. I've come to the realization, honestly, that what's going on in your subconscious is way more important than what even is consciously happening. The idea of not just programming your subconscious by thinking or writing certain things, but actually feeling them being the most important aspect of

It's something that me and Russell jam on here. Most people that I know that talk about subconscious, they start with like the mindset side. That's what they're focusing on. And for me, it started the other way. It started with sales. And it's actually fascinating. If you look at the history of it, again, I'm a book nerd. But if you look back, the first person that discovered and started talking about like unconscious, subconscious was Freud.

And he was doing it from this whole like therapy angle. But Freud had a nephew named Edward Bernays. He was listening to Freud talk about stuff. This is amazing. So Bernays came here to America. He started taking these concepts that Freud was trying to do for mindset and for psychology and for, you know, therapy, stuff like that. He's like, I think I can use this to like to make money and to change people's thoughts and perceptions. So he wrote a book called Propaganda, which is an insanely good book, taking Freud stuff, but using it for mass persuasion. How do we persuade people? How do we move people?

The very first like big project he got was for the government. And at the time, whatever war it was, World War I or something, most people did not want to go to war. They were fighting against it. So the government brought him in and said like, use the stuff you figured out to get the whole country on board with going to war. And so he built these big, huge propaganda campaigns. And then he went out there and he persuaded and literally shifted the entire country to where everyone was behind the war, excited for the war. So that's kind of

the beginning of him testing out Freud stuff in mass persuasion psychology. And it kept going, going in again, that time he writes this book called propaganda showing how he's doing it. But then propaganda becomes this very negative term. And so he goes back, he's like, we need to change this. So he renamed propaganda public relations, which became PR. And he was the, he was the one who founded PR. And so I came into the sales world, learning about the subconscious, like through that lens of like the same way that I get somebody, if I'm in an audience and there's, you know, 5,000 people in the room and I'm trying to get them to run to the back and

and buy my thing. Like understanding the psychology of that, it's the same psychology I need to actually change myself. And so then it's like turning it inwards. And then for the last two and a half years of my life, that's my obsessions, like changing myself, my own mindset through the same persuasion techniques, subconscious understanding. So that's kind of how I connect those things together. Oftentimes we think we're being conscious with decisions that we're making, but the truth is there's other stories going on in the background. I

I've gone and become consistent about every single night listening to a certain meditation. I love this one from Bob Proctor and this one from Wayne Dyer. And I also go and read a one pager that kind of creates my dream scene of where I'm looking to be over the next year. And when I'm reading that, I'm really feeling into those emotions. And that surprisingly, it sounds like he has a similar strategy.

I think one thing that'll help this make sense for people too is like understand the difference between conscious and subconscious, right? And the conscious mind speaks in questions. So a lot of times we're asking questions over and over and over again, whereas the subconscious deals with stories, which is why when you're doing yourself at night, like you're not like asking yourself questions, like you're painting a vision, you're, you're, you're painting a picture, you're telling a story, your subconscious mind to see and to understand. Right. And that's the thing that a lot of people miss. I'm consciously deciding like, what is the thing I want to change in my life or consciously seeing the thing that it's broken. Right. And then we'll,

we try to do is we try to consciously try to solve the problem, but like, you know, that doesn't actually work. I, a lot of entrepreneurs come to my world. They see like, we have an award called the two comic club board. So see, I want to, I'm going to make it too common. It's a conscious. Like I decided I want to win a two comic club award. And they start going towards it. And it's crazy. Some people like it's very simple. They just go and they get it right. And other people, it's like, they just can't, they thing after thing. And they, no matter what they do, they can't figure out how to get it. And it's not a conscious thing. We give the same training, the same frameworks, the same systems,

everybody, but some have success and some don't. And the reason is because of the subconscious, like the story that's told inside their mind, right? Somebody who grew up in a family where the family like thought money was easy to get. And they just have this subconscious belief, like the story they told us, like, oh, it's easy to even get money. There's money in abundance. Whereas somebody who grew up in a family, maybe where people were like, money's really hard, it's very difficult. And they just have this belief, like that's this belief they have. And when I understand that, it's like, you know, I have to figure out how to change that

that subconscious belief. And there's a lot of ways to that, like what you're talking about, you're telling yourself these stories, putting that pattern into your mind versus the other one. Yeah, you know, you see it all the time, like whether it's like someone, they know they need to make content, they need to be putting their brand out there, but they're worried what their team's going to think, or what are my investors going to think? And sure enough, they have these stories in their head that are tripping them up and preventing them from doing the thing that they really know, I think, in their heart of hearts. And like, it's part of their calling in life to get that thing done. But there's just these like stories that are sort of tripping them up.

So the most beautiful thing about your subconscious mind is that you can actually go and influence it. I have a bunch of strategies that I've used, things like my board meeting strategy, and Russell's got a bunch of strategies that he's also used to evolve into a founder of a multi-billion dollar company now. So we chop it up on those inside systems that we've used. I was pretty surprised actually to learn a few of his because they're new practices I'm going to now integrate into my daily routine.

Oftentimes it's that drama side of things, not the math side of things. It's really tripping people up. What's like the core thing that you sometimes find is like, this is like a way to help others or what's something that's worked in your own life to get people over that. Let me explain on sales side, because it makes it, for me, it's easier to explain here. It sounds like that's like where it's all started. Like it was all there and then it filtered down to one. So yeah, rip it. I'm the worst ever one-on-one salesperson. I'm not good at that. It stresses me out.

but I'm really good at one to many sales. So the problem with one to many sales is there's a whole audience of people and I don't know what their individual concerns are. You're kind of just like shotgunning out a whole bunch of things and hoping for the best, right? And so when I'm doing a presentation that I know the goal is to get somebody to go buy something at the end of it, for them to go buy something, I need them to believe this is gonna work for them, right? And then I reverse engineer like, why would they not believe that? Like, what are the stories they already have in their mind? And so it's like, well, one of the case studies I always share, because it's like kind of a goofy one, but easy, it's like, let's say you're selling someone a network marketing opportunity, right?

As soon as I said that, I'm sure everyone listening, like you had an instant, like visceral reaction. You're like, I love network marketing. You're like, this is the most evil thing in the world or put an idea into your head and you instantly subconsciously had a feeling. But they have, they have this story that like, if I join network marketing opportunity, I'm going to lose my friends, my family. That's the subconscious story they have. So I got to think back, why do they believe that?

Like something happened in their life that caused them to do. And again, I don't know each person individually, but as a whole, like what probably happened. So usually what happened is that either they joined a network marketing opportunity, they call their friends and their family and they got, you know, yelled at and they got hung up or they had somebody that they knew joined and the person kept bugging them. Right. In their head, no matter how good I am at selling or persuasion, they are never going to run the back of the room if that's the belief they have. Even though I'm giving a presentation where consciously speaking, I know that

They have a subconscious belief that will keep them from ever buying my product. So I gotta figure out, okay, this is the story they have. What story do I have that would trump their story? Because if I can replace their story with my story, then they will move. If my story will trump their story, that story will fall away.

and then the new story will take over. And now when I pitch them, they'll run to the back of the room if they believe my story. And so that's how we do it in sales. And so mindset's the same thing. I come back and I'm like, what's the story I actually have right now? I have to tell myself a better story to rewrite the false belief. Otherwise, it's not going anywhere.

All right, funnel hackers, let's have some fun for a second. One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing isn't getting attention. It's getting the right attention. I'm sure you know what I mean. Isn't it a pain when you see the weirdest ads showing up in your feed? Ads for things you know you would never use in a million years. And you start thinking, that person is wasting so much money targeting me for a product or service I will never use.

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You can target by job title, industry, company size, role, skills, revenue level, seniority, literally laser focus to the decision makers who can actually buy what you're selling. It's like having a magic filter for your perfect customer. And if you're serious about growing your business and you don't want to keep paying to show people ads who will never buy, then you have to get on LinkedIn. Here's the best part. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash clicks. That's LinkedIn.com slash C-L-I-C-K-S.

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Now, the best place to find the who's who can help you with your vision is Indeed. When it comes to hiring the right who's, Indeed is all you need. Indeed gives you the ability to stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other sites because Indeed's got a sponsored job listing where you can stand out in front of your dream hires.

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One of the things I love about Indeed is it makes hiring so fast. You can post the job and within minutes, you're getting applications who are coming in looking to become the who inside of your business. Prior to that, I was often posting my help wanted ads on Facebook and Instagram and then getting tons and tons of responses from unqualified people who had no idea what they were doing. Whereas Indeed, again, they're only being seen by the exact person I'm looking to hire. Now with Indeed sponsored jobs, there's no monthly subscriptions. There's no long-term contracts. You only pay for results.

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Indeed.com slash clicks. Terms and conditions apply. Are you hiring? Indeed is all you need. So your subconscious doesn't just influence your mindset, but it can also go and help you with content. I go over some of my most favorite tactics here for really helping you understand what's going on in the mind of your core consumer. So you can go and leverage the stories that they're telling, the dreams they have, and their biggest fears to then influence the exact content that you can create that's going to help them convert.

Now, I found this actually with on the content side. I see a lot of founders when they're coming up with a content strategy, pull it out of thin air, you know, and they're like, I don't know where to get content from. Where do I come up with these ideas? And one of the core tactics that I find is most useful to actually just create content that people either consciously or subconsciously want is to just go and create a type form survey as an example and go and just survey your existing amazing customers and ask them a few questions.

Number one, what's keeping you up at night right now? Number two, if you were to wave a magic wand, what would you want my help with over the next year? And number three, what is your biggest dream right now? And then taking all of those answers when you've gone and maybe surveyed, say, 20 people, and then using that as the backbone to your content strategy. So you're starting to kind of now craft content that solves those insane problems that they're keeping them up at night, that they may not even consciously know that they totally want these things solved or that you can even solve this, but can kind of then spin that into a conversation

content strategy that not just attracts these people, but like really converts them to your thing because you're inherently solving those really burning problems or helping them really see that dream in a way that if you're doing it right, they feel like you're almost reading their mind. Yeah. When I first started really executing on this, the coolest thing happened with the sales stuff is they're more willing to buy. But the second off, sometimes you can consciously convince somebody to go buy something from you, but then them actually implementing it

falls apart, those are the ones that people will refund or they give up and they don't have success. Whereas if you do it correct on the sales side where you break those false beliefs during the sales cycle, their ability to actually have success afterwards exponentially goes up because those false beliefs are no longer holding them back. And so it's almost like the better you get at this, and same thing on the content side, if you break someone's false beliefs during the content when they do enter your world and decide to invest with you or get coaching or whatever the next step is inside your funnel, you've already...

done the work of rewriting the false police up front, they're way more likely to comply and actually get the things done that you need to. But interesting too, there's like that quote that like people don't buy what you sell, they buy what others want to buy. And so it doesn't always need to even be just you breaking those false beliefs. If you can find obviously other amazing success stories from similar people, whether it's an agency owner just getting started or that person running their first SaaS business and showing their success stories. Yeah, they're not just hearing it from

From you, they're seeing like themselves in that other person who also had those negative beliefs and those things that were holding them up and go, shoot, I'm just like that. And look at the success they've been able to have from leaning into it. Okay, now I'm going to subscribe to this trainer. So just like every company has its own intellectual property when it comes to your customer list or maybe even your tech, I believe that you also have

content intellectual property. These are the common phrases that you use that become almost the monikers of your brand, the things that people come to know and love you for. Now, I went and discovered a kind of

new strategy that I formulated with partly my own subconscious and leveraging chat GBT, which I share with Russell in this next bit. And I'm pretty sure it blew his mind. I want to run something by you. Something I've been playing with on this sort of level recently was inspired by Mel Robbins. I just kept on thinking Mel Robbins is such a genius marketer. Like these like different terms that she's invented, like that or the five second rule. My wife's a huge Mel Robbins fan. So I hear about it every day. It's crushing. It's like number one on Amazon, number one on Apple. I'm like, what is going on here? Yeah.

basically went and thought like, what is she doing here? What is happening? And it hit me that maybe something that's kind of happening is that she's taking like all of these like psychological barriers that oftentimes like her audience has. So when I did this with my own audience, right, I was like, go and chat to you, come up with the top 20 limiting beliefs or psychological barriers ranked from top to bottom that someone in my audience is probably facing. Overwhelm. Maybe there's like imposter syndrome. Fear of others, let's say.

and like a bunch of others. And I had this thought of like, it feels to some extent that what she's doing is taking that feeling when it comes up in someone and then like inserting like a catchy phrase that's like a trigger reminder of like, oh, what someone should do when they feel that way. So as an example, right? For one book, you know, she's got one concept, let's say, let them, right? The whole idea that maybe you're worried about what someone else thinks instead of letting your brain go into that direction, say, let them.

think whatever they think and let me go and control what I can control move on but that feeling that trigger that comes up like 30 times a day yeah like in different ways oh I'm going to talk to Russell today I hope I'm on my you know on my best today and it's like you know at a certain point stop worrying about this like let Russell think what he's gonna think and I'm gonna do what I do and let's see where this goes yeah similar to her book five second rule when you're procrastinating or when you're putting off that thing that you should be doing like using that rule constantly in your life

Where again, it probably comes up 20 plus times a day and thereby in some senses, like Mel Robbins concepts are like coming up in your brain like 20, 30 times a day. And so I started thinking, okay, what would it look like to with each of these like core blockers that my audience has either consciously or subconsciously? What are like different phrases that I have or could invent that help people overcome that? So say for a fear of others and what they're going to think, maybe like a phrase is like, do it.

uh, messy. This whole idea of like, do a messy, like launch this like thing. That's kind of shit. Launch a draft. Like it's okay. Like if it's a bit messy, just go for it. Coming up with this, basically like a phrase cloud that all of these phrases then deal with all of these like subconscious or conscious, like blockers that people get into. And then you have all these phrases, you can test them in like short form content in tweets, in YouTube videos, see what catches fire. And then kind of like double down on that as almost like your

content intellectual property. It was crazy because when I was reading her book, it was interesting the first 15 pages she's coming up with like, so where do I even come up with this concept? I actually put a short form video out. And I had shared this because my daughter had said it in the backyard. And sure enough, this video caught storm, got like 20 million views in 24 hours. And she made a podcast around it. And it was like the number one Apple podcast around that. And she's like, okay, now I'm going to write a book around this.

I'm curious on your side, like what you do around this or how you're thinking around it, any strategies. You've been a genius with this in your own way, like the concept of like inventing a funnel. I was like people were kind of thinking like, I want to drive people from traffic to like a website thing, to like a product. It's like, that's a funnel.

Like, how do you think about that a bit? Well, first off, this is amazing because this left-hand column, these are all the subconscious feelings, right? When you have a conscious decision and these are the things you're feeling, that's what you got to be aware of. And so it's like, why do I have the fear of others? Why do I have the imposter syndrome? Why do I have those? Well, you just gave me, which is a huge gift. So thank you. It's just like, I never thought about that

Lens of what Mel's doing or how to do in content, but this is what hit me I don't know she's doing this but it felt it felt it feels like yeah I think you're dead on she may not even consciously know what she's doing. Yeah, but that is I am really excited What this is doing is what we said earlier. It's trumping the story, right? It's like you do a messy you're gonna tell a story about that next time someone has it they're gonna default to like fear of others and that's the story that's like oh wait that can replace it with this story do it messy and then that gives them encouragement and power because you tell the story and

And it's like interesting because in the previous thing, we were kind of talking about like how to then come up with a content strategy around this. It's like, well, you have like maybe a chart of like 20,

20 of these fears or limiting beliefs or subconscious like barriers people have like that one thought which in her case was let them but in this case maybe it's like again do it messy and it's like how do you then start to create like a bit of a content waterfall off of that basically put it in front of like a focus group online and like kind of go and go okay I'm gonna make like a YouTube video off of this and then I'm gonna go and I'm gonna create six like IG you know reels off this six

TikToks.

off that i'm going to create like a an email newsletter to just put it in front of enough people and see if like when you're in conversations with folks yeah like are people kind of like oh man like i was like having this trouble man i was so worried about what my family was thinking i was so scared and like honestly i just came to grips i just gotta do messy like i love that change me and you're like or you're getting dms around it now or people are actually using that language and you're like okay shit this is like a sticky idea i think it's brilliant like i always create content based on beginning the hook or the head or the external thing i never even thought about

Starting it with the subconscious belief and building it that direction is fascinating. When I'm speaking from stage, consciously talking to them, I'm subconsciously telling stories, right? First phase I'm doing, I'm creating presentations thinking, what are the false beliefs somebody has? I'm creating content, I'm not doing that. I'm not starting with like, with a subconscious belief that's holding him back.

Like, so when you're doing these big events, this one to many selling, the thing I didn't realize for so long is that there's actually two events going on. There's like the event that others are seeing, but then there's also this event that you're doing underneath all that, which is like understanding their beliefs, the beliefs that they need to overcome, inserting those stories where

they just think it's this awesome thing that you just kind of put together and it's like amazing. Like this is quite the show. Yeah. But underneath that, there's a lot of belief breaking, belief inserting, new stories you gave. And I think that that's like the opportunity for both of us. My first mentor, Dan Kennedy, he had an event called the Influential Writing Workshop and it was all about writing good sales copy. What we made all of us do is we had to go and list out

all the false beliefs that our potential customer has. And then from there, we had to write a story for every single one. And he's like, you need to build a repository of stories. He's like, most people, they show up hoping that a story will appear, right? So he made us sit down there for like hours, writing down every false belief and then figuring out like a story from our past that would, for every single one that we could tell. And it was like kind of a long, brutal process. But I look at the last decade of my life, literally 90% of the stories I tell came from that exercise, right? Yeah.

I was looking for my writing copy, doing a presentation, and I've always looked at content separately, which I don't think is correct. So I struggled with content stuff, and I think that's probably one of the core reasons is I just haven't even thought about the same way I thought about everything else. I definitely noticed that about you, just for this talking in person. You're like a story bank. It's impressive. I know I'm learning, too, from you. That makes sense. I feel like that exercise was quite transformative. It was like it had a ton of dividends. Yeah.

Because it seems like it's like created this, yeah, like a repository in your brain. Like, okay, this new person that did a e-commerce business, this person that had that belief that was screwed up, this person that thought that network marketing was ugly or whatever the heck. And after you do that the first time, then every time you see a story, you're like, oh, I can use that. And also you become more aware of it. So at first it was very much like a written out thing. And over time it becomes more where, you know, a lot of more is in your head, but it's just, but it opens up your eyes to all different ways to use story.

So most people, you know, all of us, we'll go and buy something. And I don't know about you, but when I purchase something, I'll go back and go, what exactly happened there that caused me to convert?

Over the years from having been on enough sales calls, delivered enough myself, trained enough sales teams across my portfolio of online companies, I think it's important that you really prepare for the subconscious script going on in any sales call. So we're going to go and break down how you can go and plan the different beliefs, the objections, and the specific stories that you want to make sure that you're planting into the subconscious of any prospect so they're convinced of your solution, your product, and ready to buy.

When you do your content stuff, where do you lead initially? Where do you start? Do you start at the subconscious belief level? These days I am leading into this subconscious belief

side of it with like those phrases that I just showed you. So yeah, me and the team, like we went and took like all the 20 most popular kind of limiting beliefs people have, and then went and drew up either new phrases, kind of again, content IP, that's like unique. It's only owned by me, like people haven't heard anywhere else so that it's got like a stickiness factor that can be associated with our brand. Yeah, we're trying just a lot of like

trial and error around that, seeing like what sticks. That's like, I think a more like advanced level. I don't think you need to do that out the gate. I do think that the thing that everyone should be doing out the gate is like the survey of three questions. We live in a cool day and age where you can use again, type form or whatever you want to use for that. Google forms doesn't matter.

and then even upload the whole CSV to ChatGPT. To just analyze this and live with it. Yeah, analyze this and just come up with like, what are like the top 20 how-to videos I could create that would help the people in my audience? What are the top 10 lists these people would enjoy? And think about like the format that you most enjoy for whatever piece of content or platform you're making it for and see what ideas you can get

from that. So we took all like 1500 podcasts episodes I've done, uploaded my books, found all my presentations I've ever given. So we took basically everything I've ever said publicly, threw it into JGPT and Manius and a couple different things. And then it's been so cool to be able to like ask it questions and pull out our analyzing patterns. Like what are the, it's helped me just the last couple of weeks speed up like

pulling out ideas for all these different type of things. I'm excited to run through the lens of, yeah, like what are the phrases or even like based on stories I'm telling, what are the false beliefs I'm trying to break, you know, and like start reverse engineering what we've been doing over the last two decades and start rethinking

figuring those things out. I always think about this, like, conscious mind has got to be a guard for our subconscious because if we're not careful, like, you are allowing these beliefs to bypass your conscious directly into your subconscious and you can see the results happening on the backside of it, right? Like, we have to consciously be a protector of, like, what we allow in, number one. But number two, it's like, auto-suggestions all about, like, figuring out the things we do want. Like, what are the things we need to believe, the things we got to tell ourselves to, like, get our subconscious mind to

point us in the correct direction, right? If I know this is the destination and I'm somebody who models, right? So if I know like, here's people I know who've gotten here, what do they believe? Like, I got to figure out what they believe. If I want to be a millionaire or a billionaire or whatever the next level is for you, it's like, what does a millionaire believe differently than what I believe? What does a billionaire believe differently than I believe? What does a founder, what is it? Whatever the,

the goal you want, right? And so we model that and then reverse engineer it. Here's the things they believe that I struggle with. All right, let's create suggestions to get us to have the same beliefs that we need to have to get there, right? And at your current level, is there any content stuff that you're currently like noodling on on your own side that you want to chop it up on?

We've been playing a lot with that recently to try to figure out like my unique voice. I feel like we've been struggling a little bit. There's platforms we have like for me, it's like live events or podcasts where it's like I can speak and connect to people in a certain way. But now and when the Internet got started or social media got started, it was all based on like we get subscribers. We give a message, our subscribers are here now. But for most social platforms now, it's no longer subscriber based. It's algorithm based, right? So it's like a lot of times that we're I'm having to create content in a way that's not the way I would normally do it to be able to feed the algorithm. And I struggle with that.

a debate as old as our time. Art versus algorithm. So often I talk to founders and they get so caught up in the views, the comments, the likes. And while this stuff is important as it can give you a general sense of how a piece of content is performing, it also can lead you astray. So I guess for me, the question is just understanding like, how do you make it match to make it work? You know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's like this like battle that like every like founder and creator is going through. It's, you know, art versus algorithm.

you know, like algorithm. Yeah. When you weight yourself maybe as like a founder where inevitably like there's got to be some like profit on the other side of this or else you can't afford to have the whole team around you. Yeah. You have to consider the algorithm, but you don't want to ignore the art. When I asked like 60% of people that come and work at FounderWise, like what was it that caused you to want to do this together? A lot of it comes down to like some kind of commentary on like your vibe. Right.

We're energy. And if I just simply go and maybe optimize for the algorithm, I'm like scripting out word by word. I'm like crafting it exactly the way that I know that when this video went viral, they said this and I have this thing there. And while you're architecting it like immaculately, maybe for the algorithm, you're missing like the vibe, the energy. And then suddenly now it's like, oh, this is just some scripted BS. Yeah. And I think we live in a day and age, especially right now on a lot of these platforms,

we swung so far algorithmically, I think it's just like a online creator community. More than ever, like just off the cuff, behind the scenes, the authenticity, like really is crazy. - It drives me crazy as a consumer, 'cause I go see like 30 videos of the same thumbnail, same title, you know, say it's their version, but it's like everyone doing the same thing, like copying each other versus again, like you said, the art of here's what I wanna teach, what I wanna share. - Yeah, so the things that I think like that are worth like looking at in terms of the algorithm are like, let's just say, use the example of a short form video.

It's like, you know, like the general like word count you can go for. So obviously you're not going to just like go on like maybe a 20 minute ramble for like a minute video, you know, that you got about 130 words that you can do. And so like learning to like package up your ideas into that amount. I think like the most important thing obviously is like the hook on that side. What I've seen successful is like knowing the hook that you're going to start with, like lock yourself in a room and read these 10 books. They'll change your life. But then from there, just...

just get into the 10 books that really change your life. It doesn't need to be scripted from there. What I also found useful, this is kind of, I guess, kind of more of a Steve Jobs thing, right? It's like the rule of three. Like because you don't have that much time oftentimes to get into a given idea, potentially packaging up your idea when you're talking about it off the cuff into like the three core things someone needs to know. Where like art and algorithm, I think, mix is like finding like your core

your brand people are going to be able to stop the scroll more if like you're instantly recognizable and where i think a lot of founders get tripped up because they think they're optimizing for the algorithm but what they're quickly doing is like they're making a video that looks just like hormosy's videos and they have the same color scheme the same font the same hooks and suddenly they just are watered down version of hormosy let's just say instead of sort of doubling down on what is your like color you know core color of your videos right what's the core

you know, font. What's like your unique B roll. What's like the sound that you use. It doesn't just have to be all the algorithm sounds of what's blowing up. Like what's the sound of your brand? Like what do you listen to when you're wrestling or when you're writing? Like that becomes like, Oh, I'm like in Russell's world where we all get tripped up sometimes is that the platforms quickly tell you how many people like or view your stuff.

but likes and views don't equal cash. And they can be really deceiving because the things that actually reward views and likes oftentimes is like beginner content, viral content, controversial content, mass appeal content. But oftentimes we're not even talking to these. Yeah, exactly. These are not even the people oftentimes that we're trying to really capture and talk to. And so you may actually see when you execute a more balanced like art approach where it is more unique to you. You're talking about the things that matter to that corner of your audience that you will see your likes de-enriched

decrease and you will see your views decrease, but you're actually talking to the right people. It's this idea of like, you know, signal over noise, right? Noise being like the likes of

the views and all that what matters a lot more to me is like i say follow like you and like a hundred other entrepreneurs on instagram that like i respect the hell of and if i see you comment on something or my friend daniel dalen comment on something who i like respect a lot who has good tastes like is successful they know a good idea when they see it that's 10 000 likes so i'm kind of like trying to get a read on like the signal of a piece of content versus just like

the views of it or the likes it's especially useful for those of us that aren't just targeting beginners all day long right when you have a more sophisticated buyer inevitably you're probably going to do your job right when you do have less views or likes yeah and that's okay the algorithm may show you that certain formats work but again if you just copy that format not you but anyone you end up just being another one of those so can you be more inventive in a format it's

it's not going to get necessarily as many views or likes, but the right people are going to see it and like save it, share it with a friend. Yeah. Like, and be like, how do I get in a room where Russell's doing this? Which is the exact kind of person you want. Yeah. Potentially. For sure. That's awesome, man. I love that. Thank you. Cool. It's really helpful. Well, listen, it's, you know,

you know been great hanging and a dream come true in many senses man and I appreciate and all the that you've done to contribute to the founder community over the years and you continue to inspire in so many ways and just really appreciate yeah just all your generosity over the years it like means a lot it's changed my life it's changed a lot of other people's lives and I definitely wouldn't be doing this and probably a lot of things in my life right now had it not been for a lot of the stuff you've shared so just want to say thank you I appreciate that man thank you for letting me know that awesome finally making this happen we're talking about for like a year so glad we finally made it exactly I appreciate it awesome

Very cool. Thank you, Russell. Thanks. Do you have a funnel, but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next Selling Online event by going to sellingonline.com slash podcast. That's sellingonline.com slash podcast.