#717 - Jeremy Boreing - Going To War With Mainstream Media
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Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My yesterday is jerrem y boring because the cofounder and CEO of the daily wine independent media is having a moment. Youtube numbers dominate mainstream TV and podcasts wiped the flow with radio, but is IT possible for movies, children's programing and more to tumble.

Next, expect to learn what it's like to work with bench pero, where disney keeps going wrong. The problems with modern day conservatives, whether jeremy will hire drugless murray, why children's T, V. Shows are so important to get right, the dangers of audience capture and much more. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome jeremy. boring.

What do you say when people ask you what you do?

Say that I am just a lowly shampoo, razor and chocolate mogo. I've always been saying that for a Better week.

though, yeah that's A A new a new industry for you. No.

IT is a terrifying question when people ask you what you do when you're an entrepreneur because, uh, you you never quite know what to lead with. And whatever you lead with will be the box that people put you in. So I I try never to answer the question very honestly.

When I was a teenager ahead, I was the first person I knew with a cell phone other than bankers. So I didn't know, but I was an, I was an early adopter of the of the flip phone in my first voice smell. I said I was probably seventeen and I said, jeramy, boring rider producer and shameless .

self promoter. Very nice. yeah. I, I, I feel that myself as well. What do you say about who you are? You know what you do very largely determined in to the way that people see you.

And yeah, if you've got a lot of different things, you're interested in lots of different things. That being said, the word entrepreneur is the most rank title that anybody could be. Stop themselves second only to thought leader.

Ah well, I I certainly never identify myself as either of those two things.

Can you give me the origin story of the daily wire from your perspective? Would be very interested to hear this.

Yeah absolutely. Ah you know how long time ago a boy loved the girl? One thousand nine hundred seventy nine? No, that the real truth is the daily water IT is one of those kinds of stories.

So many sundry pass that were all seemingly leading in different directions brought us to this a moment where the daily wire was formed. You have been superior. Who, you know, wonder, can child protection? Violin's, who wanted to be the first jewish member of the supreme court, who became the Youngest nationally syndicated columns as a teenager, is for a special book as a teenager, hoo, you part with the harvard law and imagine the future firm self working in law and the politics, but too found himself being the fastest talker talking person in an industry known for slow talking.

You've got me, who, you know, kind of classic, go west, Young man, small town, big aspiration, sky move to hollywood to be an actor sort of quickly encounters the reality that he doesn't have what IT takes to succeed in in that business uh for if in phases came to that realization um you have klub Robinson and our co founder and co C E. O who got made very early at his first kid as a teenager and his first business as well as a as a teenager putting in docks under water in lakes and texas like we just all had this background that in no way seemed like IT was pointed toward running up a major media company. But you know, the the shorter window version of IT is that I met entrepreneurs, a coffee being on a venturo verden studio city in. I recognized pretty quickly that then was a once in a generation talent, and a lot of the things that people thought, reliability ties, for example, how quickly he speaks, I thought, could be real assets if deployed in the right areas. And I was, at a low moment, sort of my hollywood aspiration.

How well do you at this point?

嗯， no, I I think it's probably twelve years ago, fourteen years ago.

Something yeah.

So I was not Young. I was third. But I saw something and been and I thought I was worth taking A D tour, taking a break from the things i've been working on to help bin and and then saw something in bin wanted to be in business and he tried himself on creating opportunities for his friends.

And he does a great job of that. So been of creating these tiny opportunities for me to, like, make videos for the internet, make a little money. And when I say a little money, I really like five thousand dollars kind of gigs, you know. And then I started seeing opportunities for pender, really become prominent, started pursuing those with with the influence that I had at that time, largely influence with conservative, wealthy people in hollywood who contributed to various virulency trees on the right, where I thought I could find openings for then and and together we just sort of health other along this path to success.

I heard ben talk about the time where you were more front facing in terms of talent and ben was more Operator in terms of behind the scenes. And then some point that seem to flip a little bit what's the what went on the .

yeah I think bin maybe selling of self a little bit short there. You know he was doing a lot of front facing work, but he was a harvard trained atterly. Um when we met he was general council for a media company. So he was working more Operationally in those early days and I was just trying to be a rider and producer within the hollywood system. So in that sense, perhaps I was a bit more front facing.

But the real thing that happened with peers Morgan you know benn had a very famous encounter with pierce Morgan over gun control in the wake of of a terrible school shooting, I believe, as parkin and and then just brought all of the things that make been super o such a special talent to bear in that interview and and I realized in that moment now there was a real chain to happening away from sort of corporate brand media toward individual influencer media. I don't think we are really using the termine influences at that time, but I at that time, I call that talent based as opposed to company based. And I and I said to me, you know, we need to make you famous.

The right way to change the culture, the right way to impact the political conversation isn't really through company forming right now. It's through a personality forming. So so let's worked together on that where people .

don't follow things. They follow people. He looked at Christie, ana and aldo, fifty million followers. Rail madrid, twenty five million followers. Elon musk, two hundred million followers. I don't know what test spaces or anything else has, but it's not to people relate to to people.

And there's something as well kind of this ac that people have around corporate sm and the overly polish persona that is a pretend version of a person. Someone said to me over identity of the night they refer to IT is trying to speed hack authenticity or growth hack authenticity. And it's not that's not really a thing like authenticity is emerging IT naturally comes out of doing the thing. So I understand that one of the interesting take rates from that know there may be a lot of people listening who are in business or content creation or whatever who think, well, I can do the facing stuff, but i'm also not about Operator, yeah, what insights or advice have you got for people who ambiverts when IT comes to the behind the scenes, in front of the scene skill set?

Well, a lot of people become famous when we live in a era. Words easier to become famous than it's ever been before. But to actually have a career over time, in the, in the, whatever we want to call on the influence space, you know, to to be a voice that people trust, to be someone who people believe lives, authentically, believes, i'll tell him the truth, believe has something to say that's worth listening to.

You actually have to be one of those things. I think I think one of the chAllenges that a lot of emerging voices have right now is they they do figure out how to use the system to maximize their opportunity to put together an audience in the short term. But if you if you have nothing to offer, if you have nothing to say, you're not going to succeed.

One thing i'm proud of at the daily virus, just how intelligent our house star. You sneeze when you lie, and god knew that microdot is not that talent. He's not that more.

Uh, no, you know what? I'll actually brag on Michael because I never do. When we gave Michael his first show, obviously an intelligent guy, but he felt out matched and he started reading.

And when I say reading, I mean, Michael would read two books a week, and the two books weren't like the forty or the four hour work week. You know, they were like, he was reading philosophers and he was reading no church fathers, and he was reading the western cannon at a rate of two books a week. He had a full time job working for us and then a full time job reading.

And he maintained that pace for probably four years. So you can imagine just how much over a hundred important works a year. Four hundred important works the first four years.

And that's why he has a voice. It's lasted for as long as he has. It's not just that he's a hot take guy. It's not just figured IT out you know how how to ride whatever current cultural wave there might be.

There's a business aspect of that too, which is you can make a lot of money really quickly on the internet, but money doesn't stack very well. You know, we live in a moment right now, in particular, where there's almost no yield ld anywhere. If I had achieved the success that i've achieved in the west four years, financially, four years earlier, I would own a huge real state portfolio, would all be cash flowing.

I'd be champion the one percent rule in the fifty percent rule in a way we would go. But today, those those things don't work. Those systems don't work. The market doesn't work.

And so the only way that you can actually have sustained financial success is through not not this is a low to term, but i'm going to use IT a little bit differently than other people use IT wealth creation. And people will say that owning real estate is wealth creation, but IT really isn't. It's growing wealth that you already and perpetuation it's wealth. Perpetuation wealth creation is is finding market opportunities and creating tell you. And that's harder than having a hot take that gets a lot of clicks on the internet.

So I think that the voice is, is who are going to be around a decade from now, are the voices who don't pander to their audience, who don't just say exactly what they think people want to hear, you tell the truth as they see a while, also representing their audience authentically and and with respect and to create real value opportunities for that audience. You know you see IT with a lot of companies who are trying to release products now, which we also do at the daily wire. I don't know exactly what IT will be over time, but I think it's going to be the people who are finding those opportunities to create value that are going to succeed long term.

Tell what's interesting about that, Michael story is so few people in the world of content creation, as far as I can see up, but dian, any industry that isn't sport or maybe classical music, treat their pursuit like an athlete. Does I like a professional? And this is something I came across an essay from a friend, David perl, three or four years ago.

And he said, treat yourself like an athlete was the title of IT. Now, the actual in classic twitter style, I didn't read the sa for eighteen months, but I loved what i'd interpreted the S. A as.

The S. A that he wrote wasn't what I created in my own mind, but IT really got me thinking i'd read Steven press fields, uh, the war of art, and then turning pro. And I thought, well, well, I imagine what what happen if you treated the pursuit of my chosen career, which is podcasting, like an athlete? What happens if I get a comedy coach and an improve coach and addiction coach? What happens if I work out the different ways that sleep on hydration or breath work, or cold exposure impact the way that I feel and how quick my mind works?

What happens if I start doing on all of these different things? Because an athlete does mindset training, and they'll have do precessing conditioning and theyll run drills, and they are look at game tape and theyll spend time with people that have got growth mindsets, they'll be with this coach, in that coach, in the other coach and y'll think about hydration and nutrition and supplementation. Alist, like, well, you know, if if you say that this is your thing, why leave more capacity on the table than fully going for IT? And it's cool to hear you know someone like Michael.

The steps out has is able to discuss philosophical works, but to realize that those are trajectory even to that. And I think that this is one of the beautiful things I want to, the inspiring things about youtube and this more fourth world breaking world that we are part of, because IT helps Normal people that haven't yet got there, which is what all, every single person was at the beginning of the journey. Think, oh, wow, I can go back to episode one of whatever the health thing IT is that I love now and realized just how shit was, and maybe it's even shatter than what I do on my first episode, oh my god, like I could be, you know. So yeah, I really love that. I do.

You know, people ask me sometimes, where are you going? Na, have a show. And I jokingly say, well, jokingly and not jokingly, they're all my shows. But the truth is, one reason I don't have a shows because I know that IT takes work to be good at IT and I don't have IT takes a lot of work to do what I do.

And you can do everything that there's a great there's a line that I stole from a set of star tracker or something where, uh, the character says no one can live all the lives that they would choose. No one can live all the lives that they desire. A choice has to be made, and that's true.

There are a lot of things we could be, but you can only be greater a handful of things. And you have to you have to make those choices along the web. So I I don't have a full time podcast, not because I don't have the opportunity I could launch a podcast. And there would be within some reason, I taught pod catch just because I have the power of A, A, A huge company behind me that knows how exactly how to do IT, exactly how to marketed. But I don't .

have something .

to say every day. That's not the world that I occupy. I occupy the world of creating the opportunities for my hosts to be able to driver what they do.

Yeah, you can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. That exactly right? Very difficult realization. One of my friends, alex, talks about you seen the matrix and does that sandbox tutorial where neo is being LED by movies through a busy street and there's a woman in a address and he is watching the woman in the address and then he says, neo, we watching me all the woman in the address. The point is that um attractive opportunities are distracting even when you should be focused on other things.

But one of the chAllenges you encounter as you begin to develop a little bit more is it's not a hypothetical ten. It's a thousand hypothetical one thousands and your ability to say no need to continue to scale along with your scale set and that is something yeah I am really, really feeling at the moment. The last eighteen months for me has been pretty big change, pretty big step change in terms of a lot of stuff. And it's a skills that no one teaches you. No one teaches you have to say no more effectively to things that you would have begged to say yes to only six months ago. Um that's I suppose that's one of the that this definitely degree of envy I have for uh some of the guys that work under yourself um because there is infrastructure and guidance and just a little bit less figuring out on your own this uh which must be nice and they probably help them to just focus on making the content rather than being in the engine room, working out whether or not this decision or that decision is the right one to make structurally.

Yeah and you know you're also dealing with at the point to your in your career right now, you're dealing with the three H I talk about the sop with the three most crucial elements that exist in the world fame, wealth and power. And you're beginning to have a measure of each of those as you channel grows and as your brain grows. And there they're not to be handled lightly.

Each each one of them comes with the whole range of temptations. One of the temptations is to try to protect the thing that you've built and your ability, uh, all the things that allowed you to attain IT start to seem like liabilities when you start trying to figure out how to preserve IT. And it's a real chAllenge.

I I give an example.

Well, for example, IT takes risk taking to create wealth. Preserving wealth tends to be people's natural tendency is to become more risk averse as they go, because they don't want to lose the thing that they ve made. And so in time, especially in this kind of space, you become almost the opposite of what you were.

The the thing that helped you to succeed become something that you fear will cause you to fail. And all of that is because when you have something you want to keep having IT something to lose now have something to lose. So I think that it's it's incredibly difficult.

You I ve been a lot of time in my wife helping people who are various stages of a journey towards success. And you, I I didn't know that that was gna be my life. Uh, but really from the time that I was twenty one to today, i've i've been more modern than king Arthur.

You know i've been the guy over the shoulder of the guy many, many times in in various capacity. But I i've seen them all go through what I kind of consider the the almost predictable patterns of success. There are just things that everyone goes through along that journey.

What are the what? What are the, most common pitfalls that you see？

You know, one of them is that, uh, convenient starts to come more and more and more important to you and understandable ably. So because you inconveniences cost you time and mental and emotional energy and you have lesson and less of that to offer. But the net, the downside of that, the positive is you start maxims ing your time over target.

The more time you spend folding your laundry, the less time that you're spending reading the book. And so micros has to make a choice in a limited number of hours in the day. Do I spend folding law? I spend reading the book.

I get much more value long term out of in the book. And so the inconvenience of folding the ladders is something that he needs to replace. He needs someone else.

You, you Better that he spend money paying someone to do something that you could do what anybody can fold their own laundry. What a stupid thing for someone not to do, and that's true. But if if that same hour could be spent, a cruel value to yourself, you spend IT a cruel.

The value in the person whose job is to fold laundry also benefits, because that's how they approve value. But the negative side of IT is you do reach a point where if your best friend had a flat tire three blocks from your house, you would send the to truck. And when you reach that stage of avoiding being inconvenience, you've now you've now accepted yourself out of kind of common humanity.

You see, this was successful people all the time. They they become, on one hand, more human, and on the other hand, less human. And the goal is to become more without becoming less. Not easy. That's very interesting.

You know, there is a the almonte of an a revocate is a book writing by my friend erik organon came up about five years ago. I think it's the most highlighted per word book on kindle ever. I think that's the a record that IT holds.

It's very, very dense, very easy to read. But dense says, and IT was all africa ms. And maxims piece together into a narrative.

As soon as that book came out, everybody in my world started talking about leverage, right? That was the sexy word, leverage through code, leverage through media, leverage through capital, leverage through labor. And I I get IT. I people outsource busy people outsource things and they do other things instead. But there are certain things which you can't .

outsource your humanity.

There are certain things that you should keep a hold of. And there are certain things, even within the business, that you should keep a hold up as well. So you mentioned before about this kind of almost this baLance between content that gets place and avoidance audience capture or avoiding just sort of tossing red meat to the mob in a very predictable kind of way and ensuring that the playing IT safe or just simply saying what people want to hear is something that you don't do.

I do think that this is the criticism that gets lobbied a an awful lot toward the right because the content, by its nature, tends to be a bit more reactionary. How do you think? How do you think about this this baLance and what what's your what's your insight around the reaction, react kind of accusation?

Yeah, well, the right is reactionary. There's no question that always has been throughout all of of history. Uh, a healthy society needs to a healthy left because you need a group of people who are questioning the status for you need a group of people who are creative and trying to create, uh, the next thing in the future.

But you you need to baLance against that with a healthy right, a healthy conservatism. I would suggest that in a truly ascendant culture, truly healthy culture, you're always gna have more people trying to hang on. Then you are people trying to critical.

But you do have to have people critical because the status quote is flawed. People flad for the status closed fall flaw. There are people get left behind in the in the systems that exist. You need people chAllenging those systems um and so IT is .

the nature of the .

right to say to the people who want to make change hey, holds on, wait just a minute. And that's that's a perfectly good thing where becomes bad, as in this thing, is in a system like hours today, where the left has become ascendent, where the left has cultural and political and economic hegemony across our culture. In that situation, you have more people trying to undermine the system, then you have trying to preserve the system.

And in those moments, the reactionary nature of the right become, you could say, on one hand, that becomes more important, and that's true. It's probably more important than it's ever been. On the other side, you could say IT becomes almost completely a deconstruction of its own, which is to say that at a certain point, the right isn't actually trying to preserve.

The right has become revolutionary and is trying to create. But what they're trying to create runs the risk of being retrod grade. And and that is incredibly that is the incredibly difficult moment that we find ourselves in uh, on the right in the west today that we are we are in the name of conservatives.

We're not actually trying to conserve at all. We're trying to build. And truly, there are some things that need to be built. There are structures on the left now that need to be torn down. But when the right becomes revolutionary, historically, usually has somewhat dark implications, because the right is trying to, is trying to build something that can a lot of the good that stand by the left.

How do you, how do you battle the worst instincts of the left without embracing the worst instincts of the right? And IT, while amErica is an an amazing job of that historically, it's very hard now because the right is in truly defeat across, right, all the all of the most powerful institutions in the country. So how do you do IT? Or part of how you do IT is with what I I call lower case of republicanism.

And that's in opposition or or in contrast to populism, popular m says, you know, give the people what the people want. But that isn't really what populum believes. I mean, for one, in amErica and in the west, generally, the people disagree really with the the fundamental, the core proposition of the right.

We like to say, in america, we, the people are on the right. We like to say they touch with we, the people. But the problem the'd actually become the people.

There are more of them. They win every popular presidential, every popular national election. And so it's not it's not actually all populism reports to, uh, give the people what they want. What I really means is to give a certain group of people what they think they want.

What republicanism lower case r says is no, our job is to represent about are using interests of our audience, of our constituency, but also to lead them also to be a checking at some of their worst, also to point out to them where sometimes what they think they want isn't what they really actually want in the moment. No different than any other group of people mean. I often think that what I want is some ice cream, and that is true in the moment, but is not what I actually went over time, is not and that I actually want to build.

And it's always been the case that a healthy society has to have, uh, leadership, that both response and represents the people, but also to some degree, chAllenges the worst impulses of the people. Now on the other side of that, you have tyranny so on one hand you have the tyranny of the people, populism, and on the other hand you have the terri of the elite is called that authoritarian ism uh, and there is no perfect way to say, well, what is the system that baLances between those two? Because people aren't perfect in the world, is imperfect, able.

But IT is in its own messy way. I think, Laura, a case are a republicanism. It's it's a dedication to the belief that both things are possible and that while the extension between the two, we have to enable to find a way to navigate attention.

And so the daily wire chAllenges our audience, but we don't betray our audience. That makes sense, I think, somewhat unique in the space. Um yeah what .

do you think the right is getting wrong mostly at the moment.

but. I think that the right has in most cases, the right has accurately arrived at a uh, diagnosis, a diagnoses of the problem. But quite often it's wrong in its prescriptions. And it's wrong in its prescriptions for a variety of reasons.

One because were so beat up for so long, particularly since the ascendency of brock obama in two thousand eight, when the instruments of government, particularly in america, star being turned directly against us. And we, we were being crushed, deliberately crushed by the system, targeted and destroyed by the system. And that makes you less thoughtful IT makes you even more more reactionary.

Sometimes we're wrong just because things aren't always the obvious. And so for example, lots of people have given me financial advice in my life, and a lot of them were people. I really look up to parents and grandparents and other kinds of mentors, but none of them had any money.

And so most of the advice that i've got, and I think there's a true for most people, most of the wisdom that we've got, most of the advice we've gotten about money, is from people never had to sense to rub together. And so IT turns out a lot of the things that they say that seem almost aim atic, are just false. The one that I always like to tell people is my parents told me, probably your parents told you money doesn't grow on trees.

What a lie. Money does not grow on trees. Money is there just to be created. Wealth and value are actually created.

But most of our parents were incredibly hard working, blue color people who worked for a wage. And in their life, in their experience, money doesn't grow on trees. Money isn't created, its earned.

And so that's the best advice I can give us. But it's wrong advice. And in in the final analysis, is wrong advice.

And so I think that a lot of the places where the right goes wrong is when IT, when IT embraces ideas that seem aim matic. But that ultimately aren't enough. The world is complex.

The world is fAllen. People are messy. Answers are often nuances.

And then both left hand writer often looking for, uh, a prescription that can't exist. And I would call that the ultimate prescription. And this is where we get into realisms.

So people, you know, at the worst extreme, you have anti semitism emerging left and right in a major way right now, where people have rightly identified that the elites are in our, in our society, have accumulated too much power under themselves. They've betrayed at the people, and we've become kind of conspiratorial and our answer to that. And so we start looking for a way to destroy the elite, that we start trying to label the elite and find commonality among the eats.

And that leads into things like antisemitism or radical populum, which wants to, which wants to overthrow even the concept of the leads. But of course, that once over, throw the concept of illegal as sending new elites are the other place. I think that the right makes mistakes is what I call cultist m cold leader.

Always, once you're trust by telling you something, by telling you a forbidden truth. And it's just in the mind of a man, when someone points out to you that you've been light to and those blinders are lifted and you see the light for the first time, your first thought is gratitude and amazement. Your second thought should be skepticism about other things that you believe and other people who tell you things.

But IT is in the mind of a man instead, that your second instinct is to now believe anything else that the person who just rebuilt you, the hidden truth tells you. And in the era of the internet, internet where we assigned voices, particularly on the right, on the basis of them speaking one forbidden truth. Uh, and and now we just can't, now we just believe anything that that person tells us yeah, you see this with you see this with actors like entertained or someone else who do point out something that is true and that we have not really been allowed to see.

And if we did see that, we weren't allowed to say IT, but then people put all their trust in entertain because he revealed that truth to them and they don't realized that he's leading them down a lot of really dark paths. And that I think that that's a tendency that's really evident on the right. That's a tendency left and right, but we're dealing with a much more on the right.

So that's so interesting. But saying something which many people feel is true, or say in the privacy of their own homes, no matter one side of the political spectrum they are on, gives A A kind of cold leader type covers to the person like they are speaking truth, to power, that they're able to say the things, and then the temptation of that actor to them, you like, well, you know, they were interested in what I had to say about the middle inst.

So why shouldn't my epidemiology be taken seriously? why? Why is that? Why shouldn't I weigh in on the trans athletes in sports discussion?

Well, also, also because of the cause of power, of wealth, fame and money that win, people start giving us those things. We start looking for ways to hang onto a or accumulate more a bit. We start building IT for for different reasons than we started saying things for different reasons than the reason we said.

The first things that we said, that's something that anyone in the in the german of the position that diamond has to really guard against IT all times. Are you saying things that are true? Are you saying things because you believe that the saying of them isn't service of the good? And and the audience needs to be aware when they're listening to someone? Yes, this person revealed to you, uh, a forbidden truth. But is what they're saying now true? And shouldn't IT be the case that when someone shows you, you've been right to sinter first instinct to be be to say, oh, I am too trusting, not, oh, I should trust this new?

Yes, yes, yeah. It's a, it's just a replacement for the last god is a new god that comes in. Yes, that dynamics. So very interesting. How do you think do do you guys have A A strategy internally? Or do you speak to your talent, uh, in a way to kind of help them not get out of their skies to ensure that what they're talking about is within the domain of competence that they have.

That is tough when when people talk for a living, they often say things before they have thought fully considered them. I think that we have a far above average. Uh, I think we have a really good batting average on this.

I think I should say one of the great things that we have in our company and you you said that you have a certain kind of envy for some of our guys because of the business infrastructure. I understand that we provide a lot of of support for our team and that there is something that we have provide at more human level. And if you really is come rotterdaam, you know, we really do sit down and have a, have a cigar. I don't smoke cigar a anymore, although I did just launch to create cigar company called me flower, but i've basically stop smoking. But we do sit down with the gars or whisky or uh sit down by the fireplace or and have friendships and talk about these things and chAllenge each other without the cameras on, all with the cameras on.

I think the fundamental principle, what you're talking about here is if you're doing something regardless of what IT is personal growth changing from one type of thinking or group of friends or industry or place that you live, whatever, when you're moving from that to something else, there are going to be pitfalls and temptations and uncertainty and self doubt. And it's important to have other people who are on that journey and idea little bit further ahead of you on that journey so that you can just fact check whether or not this was true.

I always, I may make this analogy because I was a known my child, so I was always team parent was always right because there was two of them and only one of me and I was never able to go to someone else and say, hey, do you think that was right when he said that thing? So I kind of just accept, you know you talking about acom ticals it's I it's just this wave if it's like, well, you no one else has said that it's have the sense that IT might not be right but who am I to say no they're parents who are the child right? Um and it's kind of a little bit like that relationship with the world.

You know I have this sense that I might be write about this. Some people in the world, maybe most people in the world seem to say that i'm not I really feel this. And without someone that you can speak to, ideally a group of people that can speak to go now did like trust yourself. I I think you're right here. I think that you've got I think is some there there that's super.

super important worth mashing ideas into uh into other ideas here all the time, both publicly, which is our job, but much, much more importantly, I think privately, which is where we where I think are hopefully our characters going to be more formed by that aspect of what we do. Does that mean that we all come to the same conclusions on, say, a political issue? no. But IT certainly means that we've explored our political beliefs in crucible, and IT certainly means that we've explore our moral beliefs and even more of a critical .

what do you think that the left is getting right? Is that something that you wish the right would do more like the left? Is there are any lessons that you wish that you guys could take away?

Well, absolutely. I mean, the left is admirable, especially the when the left is healthy, it's admirable and it's care for um the people who are left behind by the system. The left is admirable in its recognition that uh that the greater good isn't the isn't good for everyone ah the left is creative in ways that the right is historically not creative.

Creating things is a fundamentally liberal proposition. And so one of the chAllenges that we have and and we're trying to answer that the daily wire is to be creatives for conservatism. That's why we we're putting out this movie, lady bowers, while I we're putting out the pin drag and cycle.

So I we put out documentaries like what is a woman. It's why we sell razors and chocolate. Are constantly trying to build.

You know, we don't want to just be critics of the culture. We want to be creators of the culture. We don't want to be critics of business.

We want to be free creators of business. We we don't want to just be voices. We want to be not just talkers, but do us. And I think that there is some of that, of course, on the right is more and more of that every day. I'm not holding us out is somehow the only people doing IT, but there are a precious few of us.

And if we want, I guess what I would say is if if we want to build the future for the country, a, we Better get a pretty good at building, and we Better have a future that people want to aspire to, that people want to live in. I think far too often the right speaks in absolutes that alienate people. So here's a great example.

The daily wire is if there's one issue that every person of the daily wie agrees about its divorce, divorce is bad. Divorce destroys uh, society. Divorced to choice children. We talk about IT all the time, and we talk about IT in in very a practical ways. The consequences of divorce, the the damage the divorced does to children, the damage that divorce does to the soul.

But there's a lot of divorce people out there, sometimes they hear, talk about these things, and they all right into me and y'll say, you know, cool, I get a divorce is bad, but I did get a divorced. Now, what or cool I get IT finishing high school is then talk about this, of predictive ways of knowing if you'll be a success in life. Cal, don't do drugs, but I did.

Cool, don't get arrested, but I did. Cal, don't get you a growth from pregnant, but I did. Now what do you know what? And I think that the right isn't always good at having an answer to the now what, because we're so busy fighting for sort of even the idea, a foundational truth, that we forget that most people's lives have not needed adhered to that.

And most people are starting they're not starting their journey with our ideas at the beginning as clean slates. They're starting at having already lived in the messy world. That is the life very good at that and where we're not particularly good.

And IT IT is alienating and IT also very uninspiring to just be a critic all the time. You know if all that you're doing is being cynical, a skeptical or tarring down or whatever IT might be, it's just not that inspiring. You know, like it's cool. And I understand in some ways it's very easy to rapidly gain an audience by identifying mutual distaste for an out group rather than mutual love of an in group.

This is one of my A U bricks that I used to judge whether or not a content creator is um well meaning or not an acting in good faith is that audience sponde together over the mutual love of any group of the mutual hatred of an out group because if it's permanently out group, out group, out group, that's just a purity spiral by a different name and you're gonna get shaved off the outside of IT when you don't do something that concords with whatever that particular world view is. So you mentioned there are obviously this kind of intimate relationship between media and culture. And this is something that you guys increasingly trying to contribute to. How do you think about the relationship between media and culture? Well, for sure.

Well, first someone was speak to that purity spiral humane. And I call IT a purity death spiral whenever I refer to IT. And I won't and I won't abide being categorize in a way that I can't live up to.

And so you I think that especially in the conservatives, well, I shouldn't say that because the left has their own and perhaps even more to tale italian versions of this, but they're just not traditionally eth. They they're not built around traditional morality. But IT is certainly the case that a big part of what we do on the right, a big part of what we do with the daily wire, is talk about morality and moral ideals.

But foundational to my belief about the world is that I have not in anyway. I send IT to A A point of moral ideal is a uh a uh uh moral ideal um you I am a human being. I'm talk full of flaws.

I I wear many of them right out in the open and there's a whole bunch of more than people don't know anything about and hopefully never do right? Nobody, nobody wants. There's hard to be seen by anyone else.

I make a point to never allow my success to come from presenting myself as the example of how a person is supposed to live their lives morally. And I make a point of not putting out content that I think pandas to the audience, that only once things that are hold some. For example, you, a lot of my, a lot of the fans of the day to where I love the most are always at me.

This when we put out a movie, IT isn't hole's some. But first of all, I don't think they actually want wholesome movies. I think that they all watch down an ab in the office and friends and marvel movies and they don't hold those movies any kind of standard.

They only want to hold us to to a standard because they don't they're not honest with themselves. Uh, most people aren't my problem, myself included. You know, people don't know what they actually want. They know what they want to want. They reveal what they actually want to their economic behavior.

Click clicks and cashes cash.

They are try. I know what people really want because they watch IT. I know that people don't know there's not, uh, I think a movie like I can only imagine is good. That is good in the world.

I know there are a lot fewer of people are even on the right who actually sit down and talk about how great what I I can only imagine and they do spending time talking about how good modern family was is right, is just just the nature of that. We we actually want things that are different than what we admit, our love, that we want. I say all of that to say, I refuse to put out movies that panda to my audience.

I will only put out movies that I think you're great and that I think that holds up as entertainment and that, you know uh, even if they're not great, they're on the road to being grade by which I mean we're becoming Better and Better and Better as we go. But what I don't want to be is like um you know with all respected companies like cure flix, I am not cure flix. I'm not saying the cure flix up your foxes is owned by SONY now was started by Michael Scott, David A.

R. Y. They and they made Christian movies. And they they did a great job from a business point of view. They created something really good. They found a market inefficiency, and they entered that market and efficiency. But the the problem with making your identity purity is what you just said eventually, ally, since you are not pure because spoor no one is, you will be destroyed by that standard that you correct.

The and the standard that you hold others too, is the standard that you will be judged by.

That's exactly right. What I would much rather do is hold up, uh, is hold up things that are intention. As I said, lower case are republicanism involve tension, tension between representing and never betraying your constituency, but also chAllenging and leading your constituency away from their worst symbol's similarly, uh I think in in the realm of art, it's our job to uh represent our audiences but also give our audience the truth of of what they actually want, not what they want to want.

And I think in your in the daily wire job is to talk about moral and philosophical and political ideals, but just oppose that with talking about Grace and what opportunities exist that meet people where they are that helps them course correct. Instead, the ship a little bit Better. You know, in the real world where we ve all made a ton of mistakes and are only going to make more as we will go forward.

what did you learn during the production of the new movie lady bowlers? What what was a insight for or instructive or revealing during the the process of that either filming or or .

publication? One of them is how afraid people are to laugh now. No, it's it's even on the right.

People would not associate themselves with the movie when we were trying to make IT and inviting our friends to be a part of IT because of absolute fear. These are people who will speak out about the issue. They'll only speak out about IT in very, very serious tones.

And they'll all say, oh, mockery is a huge weapon. You know, we left you so good to mockery and we're so bad at IT. But then they don't actually want to make any jokes. And they don't want to make jokes because they are afraid of the audience.

And they are afraid of the audience because they have set themselves up in a relationship with the audience that requires purity of them and requires purity from them that the audience themselves will not give. As I say, you know, an audience member who will say, you told an off color joke and lady bowlers, so i'm not gonna watch. IT will then go home and watched runs of friends.

What is that about where friends never entered into the the purity compact with them. And so I think we have to not inter into the purity compact with our audience either. We have to be much more thought. So I surprised that people sort of unwillingness to have a laugh about this really sensitive.

There was there was a new story that I saw a maybe IT wasn't a new story, might have been been like a redit thread or something. Yeah, I think you guys had used extras for particular scene then. Did people walk out? Some people didn't know that IT was actually for the daily wire and then that got leaked on read IT. Yeah, I was really.

I was pretty funny. You know, some guys, uh, who came in, to be exact, storm the basketball saying bench po is a not I, which I think that they should look up, entrepreneurs, they should look up, not see they were a lot of problems with their certain. But you know, the argument that we didn't disclose to the extra exactly what the movie was about could be made by any extra who has ever on any movie that's that's not how that works. So IT IT hurts. I hurts some people's aling, I suppose.

But it's a funny man.

I'm not not and hurting people feeling business. I guess it's .

interesting. It's interesting for me to think about about what the future of culture, such culture, was. Is IT feels to me, I don't know whether you degree with this, but I think a number of people made this point.

And I IT seems right to me that we past peak woke, that peak work was kind of summer twenty, twenty ish back end of then. And I wonder what comes next. What do you think this must be something you think about strategically, very, very closely.

I think that IT is true, that peak walke may have been the summer of twenty twenty. It's it's true that the left uh has suffered some cultural losses really for the first time in my lifetime and therefore you conversely the right to scores some cultural Victories. But we're still losing in the areas that matter the most to me.

We're still losing our freedom every day to this regulatory a bureaucracy that is essentially gained, ascended to almost absolute power in the country in congress doesn't legislate anything to speak up. So we we live in an incredibly dangerous time. And what what I worry is that if we don't have Better leadership on the right, we're going to end up into a very european style conflict between the worst aspects of the left and the worst aspects of the right.

And in that kind of a conflict, there's not really any winning for the good guys in the short term. That's the thing that i'm the most fearful of。 I want to contribute to the existence of a healthy american right because I believe that a healthy american right is the immune system that can clean up all the problems from focus is on on the one hand to uh uh, bureau dc errani.

On the other two, you know, loss of national identity, all of IT, loss of economic power and stagnation and inflation, all of that can be solved by having a healthy right in this country. And so no, it's a real chAllenge, is a chAllenge that understandably, when people get punched in the nose over and over and over again, they just want somebody who will punch back yep, and up. But but what we need is somebody who has a i'm not trying to make this about presidental politics.

I think it's far bigger. What we need as a movement is leadership that teaches us both, yes, to fight, but also what to fight for, to fight for the right things. And that's that's tough when you've getting covered .

in the face for a decade. Yeah yes, very it's very strange to think about how people respond and how they seduced by particular types of of talking points. I think I said this to Jordan Peterson y he was on the show a couple of weeks ago. I think in part, the ascendency of someone like Andrew tate can be laid the feet of Jordan's moving on from the conversation to Young men. Jordans moved on doing this with art is now thinking about god a lot morals got this new back with god twelve part series on the daily wire about genesis of the book of edis or something else, right? Like he's he's moved on from that conversation and.

People will step into that vacuum, and they will step into that vacuum in every different subset all the way down the invention that are, again, about kind of i've heard do you talk, I think that was with Megan Kelly about how politics is dominated by old people, but content creation and the movement of culture, at least on the ground at the moment, from the way that I say, it's dominated by Young people, Younger people, certain Younger people than the incumbent. That typically would have been the great keepers with whatever was going on. What's the what's the future of that look like how how can I be the case that politics is still this like old guard and yet culture moving seems to be a much Younger, more finger on the post god.

Or sadly, I think if that's that somewhat representative of what europe looked like before the first world war that you had and elite that had lost touch with the people, and a that had accumulated too much power to itself, the whole content was being run by people who were far out of touch from a agent and demographic point of view of people. You had a very, very old leadership in europe at that time, and Young people felt left behind.

And and we're in many ways left behind. Danger that we have now will listen. There's enormous opportunity in the creator economy. You know, twenty year olds can have a voice in a way with no gatekeepers and that that there is a lot of good that will come from that. There's bad that comes with the two.

One thing that you lose when you lose the day keepers as you lose any filtering mechanism and any with any sense of wisdom, Young people aren't have any wish to have ideas and, uh and so in the tension between the good that comes from that and the bad that comes from, but we have to find a way to navigate toward the good and away from the bad. It's good that we have more voices. It's good that there aren't gatekeepers who can keep out ideas, uh, good ideas that they oppose. The negative is there is also no gatekeepers to keep out the bad ideas that we should .

all oppose yeah and there's things that olympics high jack, which are not worthy of the attention that our brains want to give them exactly right.

I talk about this a lot. That technology is like a technology represents a hardware change. When hardware changes, software has to change, and we are not developing the software fast enough to deal with. All the change is happen in the system in our lifetime. No, we haven't. We've barely dealt with the printing press and now we're trying to deal with, you know, the internet and A I and uh and and you name IT and so many of our problems today IT may be the case that all of our problems today in the west are just not yet understanding what to do with the internet communication.

I think he done stream from that is there's a of a lot to be later defeat of at JoNathan hyde just released his or announced his new new book um which is coming out in march of next year, are very interested to speak to him about that because so much of so much, there's almost like an excuse that people can just throw IT to add social media and technology. Again, I do think that they get both overused and underused for things.

People forget about IT, xiao ally, or like the thermal dynamics of the system, and then they use IT as a scapegoat buggy man to explain things which are actually well, note that just agency or sovereign or individual integrity that someone hasn't decided to to deploy. Here's one question I had for you who who was some of your favorite content creators outside of the guys that are at a dw? Because you must get delayed flights, you you get stuck in airports and stuff. You go to a watch, something to distract you. Who do you turn to?

Who do I listen to? You know, I funny. I went through a big phase of listening to gerry fy.

And I was listening to gary fy because gervase is not like me in anyway. I don't even understand like fully one third of the words that come out of gary venner checks mouth. I do not know what they are.

It's some music reference to genre that I don't know, some sports reference that I will never understand. It's something about wine that I don't get. He's from a completely different world than I am, but he is always interesting.

He's always chAllenging. He's always pushing themselves, is always thinking I get a kick out of that because it's because i'm it's not me. It's not what i'm like. I'd like to listen to in P R offerings even though I disagree almost everything all of their presumptions but they're such a equality to their to their approach that IT always hooks me and IT inspires me to want to bring more quality of that kind to the work that we that we do uh of late. um.

I've listened to it's funny to say I listen to a lot of Jordan Peterson now, and I did not listen to Jordan Peters and even six months ago to speak of, I mean, I read this book with familiar with him, knew you d be a great asset to the daily wire, but I I find myself more more listen to Jordan and the person who we produce. I now listen to every week. Even though i've been friends with him and been producing him for a decade, i've never listened routinely to a show but I think Andrew, clive and show is incredibly important.

I'm not listening to IT has the producer of IT to make notes on and i'm actually listening to IT because of the wisdom that IT contains and and the insights city has um i've always loved Stephen crowder. I think that is absolutely hilarious. I don't love them anymore.

I have some fairly some fathy public disagreement was Steven at the moment. But I still think this is one the most talented, funny guys out there and special in our space. No one.

There's not that much that is funny. So it's so refreshing to to hear Stevens approach in that regard. I think lines cks the greatest living broadcaster. I think that is progression of the greatest and and sort of in a weird way, leased, recognized in the age of the internet. He is very recognized in radio. I think that, I think that if you just took the library of things that dinner is said and started chopping them up for instagram, ID, one of the bigger influences in the world's.

in very the end, get the content spend up. guys. Come on. Can I make, can I make a suggestion for someone? I think I 学 得 快。 I think I think that daily, why I needs to put an off on the table and take duglas mary. I think that if you got Douglas mary and used the correct engine to make him sufficiently media engine savy, I think that that could be beyond huge. I do.

I agree with that. absolutely.

He's just I have been printed him for four years or so now every time that I get to catch up with him, there's another level to something that we talk about that I find particularly interesting, a particularly charming I don't agree with in tens and tens of things that I don't agree with them on but he is just something yeah and also I I really think that we need to start to add a little bit of the aggressive ed british across into what IT is that you're talking. So i'm team murray for for you to bring across the daily one I having kick back ten .

percent to you if we make him an offer.

Fantastic tic. Uh, why should people go? You've got this new lady ballets thing that's out now. You've got praga .

series n drag.

Yo yes, that's coming out. What else you else you announced .

recently why we just you show with am corolla's animated ah committee series called urgent, which I think people will really get a kick out of its its Carolan Patrick warburton and rosen bar and h tons of great comic comic actors voicing these animated characters and it's a role throwback to like politically incorrect nineties animated show them. I think I think that would be a road breath of fresh air for people.

And we've got our bin key APP now, which is not for not for the adult but for kids. It's A A separate entity from daily wire for all the reasons, but something that were very proud of. And then I think if we cultivate IT, well, I think that could be our actual legacy in the world, because giving children a place in this culture to actually be children, I think is is may be the great calling of of our .

time that would be something kind of strAngely revolutionary. And not I haven't seen any of your children's content yet, although I would be interested to have a look at IT. It's like it's so strange to just try and make presumably children's contract about children stuff that doesn't really have any crazy agenda that comes along.

But the right yeah I it's really, really strange to me that there isn't even more parents pushing back. There's this thing in idaho at the moment. Uh, and and penguin random house just yesterday announced that they would be counter suing the the state of idaho or something no random story yeah, dude, I let me let me pull this up really quickly for you.

I mean, embarrass when you .

pull IT up on the daily wire. Have funny penguin random house to iho. Let me see here paying in random house and best selling authors I O I hope this shows i've been a one VISA recipient of your great nation for two years, and I don't know the difference.

Iho and I were picking the random house and best selling order to sue eyewear over a school book banning law. The publishing giant joint and four authors, including john Green and jody peco, joined several teachers, a student in the states teachers union, in filing federal lawsuit. The nation's largest publisher and several best selling authors have filed thursday chAllenging I was new law that bands public school libraries in classrooms from having practically any book to to pick sexual activity. So random house a they posted IT on the instagram mature I saw yesterday um yeah I don't know that that position was where process amendment we are. This is like an imposition on the world of publishing in some way um I don't know .

the the first amendment is is sacred. Um kids don't have unlimited free speech because they are kids.

The the idea that you have the right to say anything you want to a child, uh was nowhere in the imagination of the founders of this country and the idea that we should be arguing whether over wether or not it's a violation of the rights of a publisher to sell sexually explicit content the kids is just proof we have just completely jump ed the shark, uh, as a society. Yeah go check out bin key. It's a i'm very, very proud of that.

We have eighteen shows there now a lot of IT license, but four daily. Why originals and and of those four or four, which i'm proud, two of them are truly daily wire creations and animated show called chip china and a live action show called mab mcclay. And I I think we have the opportunity over time to build something meaningful, beautiful.

That is not, you know, it's not about partisan politics, is about values. It's about imagination. It's about wonder and creativity and all the things that sort of underground a society, the things that you're supposed to learn in the childhood that you're supposed .

to have jermy boring. Ladies and gentlemen, if people want to check out lady bowlers the new movie, where should they go if you gotten codes? Is that codes happening at the moment?

No codes. I got a daily fire plus dot com, and you have to be a subscriber, but they will run in the biggest discount of subscriptions that will that we run all here right now as we speak.

The artist, Jimmy, I appreciate you.

Thank you, men. Thank you for the time.