#735 - Rory Sutherland - Hidden Psychology Of The World’s Best Advertising
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Hello, everybody, welcome back to the show. My yesterday is rowing. Sutton is one of the world's leading consumer behavior experts, the vice chairman of olga, the advertising and an author. The advertising industry creates a unique intersection between psychology and creativity by looking at what works in the world of bad campaigns, we can learn even more about the human mind, and ROI might have the best inside on the planet. For this, expect to learn how dating apps can improve by being more like property websites while women actually wear engagement rings.

All thoughts on Jordan Peterson, how you can become more creative everyday, what rory's inks of twitter changing their name to x, how hotel rooms have residual sexism baked into the design, why rational people ruin creativity and butcher if this is your first introduction to Lorry, I am so jealous of you. This man is a force of nature. I think it's maybe his fifth or six time on the podcast, and I dore sitting down with him.

He is, and absolutely the world wind of classic british energy and psychological insights. And he's britton. He's fantastic, a very, very much looking forward to listen to this one today. In other news, some exciting things happening.

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IT ensures that you don't make episodes when they go up, and that makes me very happy indeed. So going to IT, I thank you. This episode is brought you by all state.

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I have a quote from you. A mutual friend, George mac, sent me a quote that said, a rich man is anyone who earns more than his wife's sister's husband.

Yeah, that SHE isn't me. I wish I wear me because I would have retired on the basis of that quote pull. I think it's what's the typical of brilliant american humors called the sage of boltin all the americans will .

know um no idea .

a fantastic comic right? And I briefly forgotten his name right? But IT is interesting how interesting. I was having conversation yesterday with someone at a addiction clinic in switzerland, which I can't name.

I wasn't there is a patients just in case you're I was there a very, very interested outsider. And he said that the comparison is the enemy of happiness. That you know, one of the things that seems to be a curse for all human kind that you've obviously read and you ve probably .

view the author of the state.

which is a fascinating book, because it's this kind of terrifying, invisible force that drives us and we're in denial about IT. And in some ways, the game only works because we pretend we're not playing the game. You see, I mean, and that comes down to all the other phrases about status seeking, which is, I think, the famous one of aristotle asis, where he said that if there were no, all the money in the world will be worthless.

I think he's probably overstating the company. They presumedly pleasure to be dry from some of jet skin. And i'd like to have one of those yachts, not for the yacht, but just, I know it's not call parking in this morning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The actual business of sAiling around. And one of those youth won't appeal to me at all, but ducking a fucking thing that must joy you ever watch that I called super yard captain on youtube. No, what they do and they dock those things is actually send up a, so they gone an erie view of the ship, right? And then they use the bow rosters and the stern thrusters to actually maneuver the thing.

I mean, you get that on cars, right? The fancier ranger over gives you what .

appears to be an overhead, the electa. They tend to update .

to something.

probably the maki G T next time, because i'll be well into a midlife crisis and so i'll need a car with stripes on IT. Uh.

interesting that you said everyone I just attributed misread ted to quote to you something called churchill and drift to you about this before.

which is wear quotes there is also a famous thing which is called somebody's law, which is that the quote is never attributed to the original person who said IT right? And IT also applies to scientific laws so if take baz there um IT wasn't actually baze. IT was someone about fifty years earlier who's a blind and mathematician.

Cambridge, in fact I can't remember, is then appropriate enough. We can all remember basis name, but we can't remember the and so quite often it's the second person. The person who popularized is what makes famous, who actually gets the law of the discovery credit to them, not the person who is the original discovery.

Or it's a stickiness game, right? It's all about who manage to capture the .

mean time. You know that americans .

yeah so he's taken the tonics kicking.

He's one of those people who probably is they're certain people who much more famous in america. They on britain undeservedly. So because he was extraordinary yeah.

What have you learned about the choice architecture of online dating sites and how IT relates to property websites?

Well, this is this is kind of interesting because one of the reasons one of the reasons I like working and advertising and marketing is I think the correct way to solve problems, to understand what's going on is really bottom up, not top down. By which I mean um actually open minded inquiry and observation of all kinds of things OK tens. Then over time, patterns start to emerge.

And I think the Better way what we try to do in politics in particular, as we start with a theory, we then impose the theory on reality. We trust the areas of the scale at which that theory succeeds, and we sweep under the carpet those areas where the theory basically fails. okay.

So if you take something like, okay, if you take something like the efficient market hypothesis, IT probably has an application in a few fields. And those are well celebrated and measured by economists. It's a complete nonsense to apply the same rules of a Marks to say, the property market or the dating markets as you do to the market for a commodity like iron or or something of that kind.

okay? They're fundamentally different. In particular, if you look at the property market is a problem because when people go by most things, you know, if you went out by a car, i've got to ask you your car, i'm a big maki enthusiast, if you're gone electric or in texas.

as I get .

you .

como a camera for my first car in america, A, F, Y, I, there's no license equivalency between the U. S. And the U.

K, which means that I need to retake my theory test eighteen years after I took IT in america, which is difficult. It's the road. Signs are different. What does this particular thing mean? I all of my knowledge about roundabout is totally fucking useless.

Obviously, my car, which is obviously american, has an interesting american feature, which is you can set the cruise control to effectively go at the speed limit plus or minus x miles.

And using this sand.

now uses a mixture, I think, of, and actually optical character and rose, which does raise the question of people in residential areas. Are onna put up fake seven miles an hour signs along the streets so that electric cars all automatically slow to a craw. But so I image, you notice, is that wonderfully where people, as I predicted, we're hacking autonomous taxes.

and centuries .

you put a con on the hood IT. And the thing was basically a mobilized in a state of complete confusion. And I predicted that i'm proud, say, five years ago I said, people will hack self driving cars and they'll discover they're what you're going to do is put a pattern of waited balloons on the road and the things will go absolutely deli. And sure enough.

someone discovered that. Okay.

dating science. So dating site. okay. So let's look at something here, which is so to go back to my original point, the market for property is highly problematic because what most people do when they buy, they look for property to buy is they work out how much deposit they have.

They then work out how much they can borrow. They add those two together and they start looking for houses around that Price. okay?

So the basic heroic question they are asking is how much can I afford? And then they start looking. Now if you notice, we don't buy anything else like that.

We don't buy cars that way. okay? If you went and said, okay, how much money can I raise as a deposit? How much can I borrow? People be driving around in butties, and we get you very ons and benches all over the place. But we don't do that with cars.

We kind of take a baLance on how much property, how much car do I actually need, how much do I care about cars? It's but because we have this theistic that effectively, property is the only tax free big bet you can make in your life. Okay, with huge tax advantages in terms of the capital gains everybody maxes out.

Now, unsurprisingly, people who sell property have noticed this fact. And consequently, property Prices go up and up and up because everybodies effectively. So as interest rates go down, IT does not make anybody Richard IT just means that they set their target Price for the property they're prepared to buy, even hire them before sellers of property aren't complete idiots.

So they basically put their Price up to get whatever they can get. And so consequently, you end up with the third spiral. okay. So the property market is fundamentally unlike, say, the market for, as I said, whether it's I N or or indeed whether it's you know a high quality energy drink, yeah the product placement .

IT strike me .

also that there's a fundamental problem in three things, which actually is the same in all three cases. And it's the market for graduate recruits, the market for first in otherwise employees for first jobs, the market for property and the market for dating, okay, which is that two problems.

When you recruit someone straight of university or you recruit anybody for a job in which they have no experience at all, okay, you don't know anything about them realistically, ally, but you need a proxy. So the proxy seems to become, you know, Russell group university, two, one or above. And everybody uses that is the first stage filter for their search.

And everything that doesn't meet those criteria. Everybody who doesn't meet that those caterina effectives disappeared out of the marketplace despite the fact that they may be possessed of believable talents. They just either had a good time at university or a part of that very launch, part of the population who are very, very clever but don't feel motivated doing academic hypothetical things.

Okay, you know, if you think about, I know people, people who are good at chess are probably quite bright in some respect. But you can't say someone who's bad at chess is thick, right? You know, my brother's na physicists, he's shit and chess, right?

Okay, you know, I know they they do actually record games that sort of einstein and open hymir played in the manhattan project. They're kind of O K S play. But there nothing amazing, right? So you know, there are quite lot of things that .

are one way prox necessary.

but not in other way, exactly necessary, but not sufficient, but but actually not necessary. So actually, you know, now what's happened here as a consequence is that we're automatically just discounting. Now let's take dating as a parallel there.

What's your first filter? Okay, the H. R. Person's first filter is two one on above, you know, and then they interview them, but the first filter is that two one on above, they want to have a degree.

In fact, increasingly, I noticed my daughter's generation of doing masters degrees, because even if you got a first class degree for a rustle wrestle group university, it's that positional good thing where you create hyper competition. And it's really a kind of peak of tail signal effect OK. So what you're really proving is not ability or human capital, it's just commitment to the area in which you're invested.

Okay, dating sites IT strikes me that what you have that I got married long before they were online websites as as a contemporary of mine said, who also got married before there was online dating, he said, I feel like I caught the last helicopter out of python. You know, genuinely, I wouldn't know where to get started on line dating, but what's the first criterion you use, accept or reject? I'm summer here.

You're a guy I don't quite know. IT works slightly differently, I think, for women because obviously the demand is complete. The assessment. C, okay, but it's a still picture of them and some words of text.

All right now, how good this is two, one or above is not actually a brilliant proxy for how valuable and employee this person will be. It's all you've got OK. I didn't even think a still photograph and a few words of text in any way proxy for who you might forge a long term relationship with OK.

Because what you're doing is you're making a series of decisions. You're you're working away down the decision tree to use the language of choice architecture and because every decision you make you're happy with you think therefore that a series of seemingly rational decisions will reach an optimal outcome. But actually have been.

For example, there are people who are extremely attractive actors' who wouldn't make IT as a model because their attractiveness is to do with motion, humor, wit, present, you know, all those things which matter more in a relationship than how you look on a static photograph. I don't know this, i'm shown my age, but Cameron D S. Probably ouldn't made IT as a vote model, okay, but general us, I don't know, okay.

But what I what i'm saying is what makes them attractive is all mix of things like humor department movement, you know, settled things, which cannot be kept red at all in that initial filtration phase. Same goes for employment. What makes a good employee cannot really be very well captured by that initial filtration phase.

Same goes with property. Okay, which is what do people do when they look for property? They go, okay, first, or how much can afford and they start looking at that point point.

Then they asked the second question, which is where is IT and how many bedrooms now all let me saying, okay, is that IT seem as rational while we're going through that process, IT seems as perfect, sensible, because each stage are filtering what we don't see. The dog that doesn't barking the night is what we're rejecting. That might be great.

okay. Now here's where the problem really gets acute. He, everybody's going through this decision tree, starting at the same place, working through in the same order. That's what online choice architecture does. Now, if you look at how people chose houses, or for that matter, girlfriends or boyfriends, back in the reinterpret age, there was a lot of noise in the system.

You know, I mean, the conventional british way, you know, the new york way, is you go out with people in first or find out how much they earn as, say, okay, I was dating in new york where we strikes me as like a weird jane Austin kind of transactional, veiled OK. But in britain, basically, you went to a rugby club and got pissed with your friends sister. okay? And then you discovered you really like each other that's messy and not suited.

It's optimal. There's a lot of choice you're missing. But everybody effectively found a house, found a partner in a different way. The choice architecture was different. The starting point was different.

The initial filter, in many cases, people found a house because they walked past the state agents window, they drove down the lane and sore for sale side. And in many cases, they didn't start searching with eight hundred thousand and down, right? And IT was messy.

So people had how is this? Had lots of opportunities to appeal to people and partners, had lots of different strengths, which they could deploy depending on the circumstances in which the meeting took place. Because, I mean, guys aren't that slow.

Men are a bit slow, but there are help of a lot of personality features. okay. Now if everybody chooses according to the same criteria, it's a much less efficient market clearing mechanism.

Then if everybody's a bit messy. So let's assume that you had no, I mentioned this earlier because I was talking to a kind of recruitment firm. Let's imagine where you had a world where, weirdly, everybody's H.

R. A director was like orderly prejudice, okay, but they're all prejudice in completely different ways, that one person was obsessed with her oxe graduates, and other person was obsessed with hearing jamaicans. A third person was obsessed with hiring scales. Okay, over time, multiple differing prejudice is or what you might call diversity of opportunity, rather than equality of opportunity, would provide a more efficient market for talent than the one we have now, which is regimented, identical and IT. Seems to me there's a conflict here which is in recruitment.

The needs to look fair means you have to apply the same criteria to everybody, which means as that kind of consistency of selection spreads out across the hole of industry, okay, IT actually means that there's a lucques under supply of certain people who meet those in national criteria, while the fifty percent and eighty percent of people who don't meet there's initial table criteria effect fully go waste. Yeah, it's loves who are single because they just don't look that great in the Stellar photo. You right now, there's a further thing which is going to be really careful as my wife going to watch this, but actually you don't want to wait for a house which appeals to everybody, right?

If you know, if you marry a supermodel, right? Basically, then you will run off with the a tennis coach and take your hands right? What what you want is someone who's this proportionately attractive to you? You all right, that's the sort of game theoretic approach of house hunting. So my approach to have something i'll start of dating is my wife baby watching OK. It's to something instead of form of.

And i've often said that the state agencies would be a lot Better if they actually were forced to list the downsides of a property as well as the upsides, because the rude way to choose a house is not to say, what's my perfect house? Is to say, what do other people hate that? I don't mind.

Guess, okay. So an example in my case will be next to a railway line. Absolute bonus.

You know, I love trains, right? They stop at midnight. They don't keep you awake. I never get a bed before midnight. Anyway, I actually pay extra to have trains going past my house. Equally, my children have left school, so the school catchment area can be used some crack heads. Academy doesn't bother me, right, because and my kids are twenty two and the other the third one, which we are massive bonus to me.

I couldn't believe my parents in law once didn't buy a beautiful georgian house, wait for the reason because he was next to a pub oh sorry, i'm total confused here that so the best garden in the world, right? It's not size us. It's a beer garden, right? Because it's a garden and it's got beer. Now, I actually used to people lived next to a problem, and they had such a good relationship with the landlord, they can actually order over the fence. So if they had a barbecue, they could just get, you know.

four points of the usual, yeah, yes.

yeah. Now to a lot of people, being next to a park is an absolute nightman, you know, flight path. Okay, if you if you're completely death going by my place in the heathrow flight path because is not going to bother you, but it's gona bother everyone else.

So the other thing about this very regimented mode of choice is that IT prevents you from gaming the system. yes. Now, to be honest, what makes someone initially attractive at first dance, and what makes the relationship enduring okay, are not the same thing. They're not the same criteria.

Therefore, using what you might call first glimpse criteria in a house, in an employee, in a potential partner, okay? If if you're seriously after a long term relationship, which after you are with a house and you are with an an employee, you may or may not be when you are online dating site, that varies again, the first glimpse, ritter ia are totally unreliable as a guide to long term enjoyment. So is like my wife kill me for this, okay?

The kind of person you want to marry, right, isn't something that everybody wants. It's something the value of which you only discover on repeated, familiar, on long term hilarity. So you want what you want is an air fria girlfriend or a japanese toilet girlfriend, okay? right? Not a covet girlfriend, you think I mean, right you want something which actually you know the value are fully because over long term exposure that they are actually technique called the economics, they called experience goods. What's interesting about the experience good is that it's something the value of which only becomes apparent with you started is terrible using that economic b to refer to relationships.

It's not the worst thing people have said about relationships in the internet. You're probably right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that is that is fundamental. Interesting that what the internet is done, the two things are, is that in many cases, the thing that yields up as the first filtration point is not a very good proxy to begin with. But secondly, and this is, I think, the worst problem, if everybody is using the same first stage filter because everybody's on tinder or whatever may be okay, then effectively it's going to create a totally inefficient market clearing mechanism because demand this proportionately goes towards those people who happen to be those inal, those initial proxy criteria. Now that strikes me fundamentally as a problem in all three of those markets.

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Had to drink L M N T dotcom flash modern wisdom to get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box, plus there is a no B S no questions after refund policy, so I can buy one hundred cent risk that drink L M N T dot com flash modern wisdom. Did you read set Stevens dividual this book? Everybody lies. So he was an next data scientist, sa google. And then he did another book called don trust your gut.

Ah, now I haven't read that.

So the second one, don't trust your good looks at this specific problem IT looks at what is the issue, by the way, nickel plus, that is like just super charge till what flavors .

this ones I think Cherry, I think very good. My cat act completely really is, could be the first ever guess Chris has had a conversion .

about medical problem. Yeah in his second bucky looks at um people who basically haven't been Priced into the market when IT comes to dating um and by the way.

who makes no sense does IT if you actually go around the world, meet people who are single.

meet people who are really highly educated women, highly educated women, one of the most overrepresented single groups, who got women who .

can contribute a turn of the because my god, my god, the arguments then one, okay, but not but also because historically, effectively this may change. okay? So women are more reluctant to marry down in education level in manner interesting, probably manner slower. And let us go. Well.

you twenty one year old bursa that can't spell her own name.

atrophy wife, I, yes.

in my god.

But you know just that the people you have, that really weird breed of people who has a very rich and very, very thin, you know, right? But but he notes, so I mean, Chris rocked i'll routine on this in day, which was what was that men can't go backward sexually. Women can go back in lifestyle. I think the Chris, one thing that I think deserves study which is interesting is a huge generation of the most successful comedians are also amateur you amateurs, fecal vely evolutionary thinkers, aren't they? So if you look at java, absolutely fascinated by kind of Darwin and evolution and so on.

Um absolutely true of, say, Andrew shelter of Jimmy car jy cr actually wrote that corrode that book with Lucy greece, the naked jay, which is an absolutely fascinating kind of investigation into the evolution origins of comedy and I actually a few more that I mean, I think you can see IT in dave shaped, you can see IT in Chris rock, a lot of that stuff. There's a huge influence and there seems to be a significant correlation between interest in kind of evolutionary psychology and comedy. Well, ultimately.

IT tells us why we are the way we are, right? And that is one of the insight to say the thing that everybody knows, but no one has named, or no one dare say, yep, is one of the greatest forms of comedy that he confined. There was something else I remember.

but also, I suppose it's all about, I mean, I, you know, we contextualized so comedians, again, to be very, very open to different ways of looking at the world. Because he is, to some extent, the source know that contextual flip is at the root of quite a long direction. Misdirection, exactly.

But he is fascinating because, like music, we have this debate, what is the evolutionary function? And one of the things that strikes me as odds that we don't look at comedy as a source of inspiration for wider problem solving. So I didn't interview with Jimmy carr at and week, which was a kind of advertising festival at which, by the way, is, as you must have find, I mean, people like him, for example, the what you might call brain to mouth speed is extraordinary.

Isn't IT terrifying? There's a great phrase in television which is called brain to mouths. And you, JoNathan ross or whatever people like that are very, very good as interviewers because they can basically form a thought and speak IT more less in parallel. And I found I found that really interesting in terms of, you know, talking to Jimmy car because it's rather like, you know, you fancy yourself a bit. There was a wonderful thing I saw, actually, and I think was the eight, two, nine, nine and each, which was one of they sort of hatted up citrons, which you are like the hot hatch with enormous.

kind of a necessarily .

large tail pipes and a ludicrously large wafer that takes over the hole of the the boot. And once all the eight, two i'd I decided to take out of the current F, B, okay. And I have to say I was combing to watch, and the guy actually, you know, acquitted himself in the first sort of five seconds, reasonable well, but I felt a bit like that, you know, talking to Jimmy carr.

because in in the citron with the big.

I was the cron with the unfeasibly large tail pipes. And similarly, i've always been in all of Andrew shouts for the the crowd work just has has a speed which is just .

terrified yeah yeah I so someone asked me the of the day, um who are the easiest people to speak to and who the most difficult people to speak to on the show and I definitely find the comedians are the ones that I need to be the most switched on for mark and in particular, mark is so it's such a game of it's not a game of a tennis. It's a game of ping pong, ping. It's that it's that kind of pace. And you're right, he ride the crest of now is give you oddly a some harrassing and sort of type thing is just living in the perpetual present and just deploying thoughts as they come to him and the lack of filter and the precision of his speech just allows him to just things just fall out of him.

And there's always this weird to about creativity, which is IT kind of comes in two forms, one of which is what you might call sharing age genius. And the other one is hyper accelerated rationality, which is just in the same time that the other person is getting from a to b.

You're already at f but I mean, what interest may also is, if you look at political movements, given them the fact that psychology is often quite a bleak, the way to solve a problem. This this is what really, really bothers me about politics at the moment, which is, in fact, is what my next book is about. If I give a taste, which is the question is, do you want to win arguments or do you want to solve problems? Because the mode of thinking you adopt, if you want to solve a problem is much more open minded, much less dogmatic.

Okay, it's much more a bleak and creative. Then the mode you would adopt if you want to win an argument. And what we've done is we've selected for our leadership, for our politicians, in some cases from our business people, and we've educated for, and we've promoted for, the ability to win.

Arguments are okay. And actually winning an argument and solving a problem are two completely different skills sets, I argue. So there's what always fascinate me. Ban Andrew shouts, okay, if fan russia said, you know, five percent of what he says on stage in a corporate environment or at yale OK, if if you consider, you know, rob enderle on's experience at yale, okay, they practiced the place, shut down for death.

immigration and can.

And yet his audiences are completely mixed in every sense. I mean, if you want to x, if you want to really, really diverse group of people, genuinely representative, diverse. And Andrew shots audience is pretty much as good as I get. And he solves the problem, which is interesting. Okay, not by pretending, say, race or gender don't exist OK, but by my highlighting the distinctions and then taking the piece at one OK.

Now, from an a bleak kind of creative point of view, you have to answer the question, is that actually a Better way of solving the problem than, for example, the extreme dogmatism of, say, the politically correct mode, not not using the word worke particularly, okay. Now, you know, is part of the solution that, you know, in other words, do you actually make people pretend not to notice ethnic differences, and as a consequence, become incredibly anxious in the presence of any of those differences, okay? Or do you actually acknowledge them, make light of them? Because.

but both of them are trying to tune down the seriousness. Both of them try to say, okay, the one of them works, yes.

but here's a Christi. I want to use some important testing on this. Okay, you do occasionally comedy clubs.

You do occasionally get a pissed guy who hackles and everybody gets really angry. Okay, but do you get violence ever outside comedy clubs? outside? I will, inside or outside.

I once i've seen one video in the last few years where a hackler R S. Tried to start on a committee, but unbelievable, really, really rare, especially given your pointing out people and saying stuff about them or their wife, or their relationship or their charity or whatever.

I mean, I recommended I couldn't make IT to Andrew sult roll the hole, but I recommended people wanted for the limited visibility seats, but only because they were cheaper. But because given his crowd work, the blast radio bra thing is I could hide behind a pillar and it's very unlikely i'd be single out is like the White guy he'd ever seen, whatever IT might not be. And so what's interesting is the comedy audiences are really fascinating just in terms of their demographic constituents.

It's teaching people a sort of a degree of intellectual humbler being able to cast off the attention that you have when watching something. A cur, by laughing, i've noticed i'm preparing for my first life tour, which he is happening around the U. K.

Island in a couple of week's time. And as a part of this I did a ton of work in progress shows. And we could feel, I could see in the room and feel in the room tension arising, as i'm talking about whatever the thing is that i'm talking about, this section about confidence, of this section about regret, or this section about whatever. And there was bits where you needed a laugh, almost kind of like how a dog shakes its coat when it's wet, needs to just pass IT off. Yeah.

so he he is an interesting energy. Okay, in terms of being right vers solving the problem. okay? Now, if you want to win arguments, or if you want to win the respect of a peer group who held a particularly at a political views, what tends to happen is you get to a virtue spiral. I think that's what it's called in the book.

Purity spiral.

Purity, thank you. Purity spiral, you become abilities. And then, because conflict is inherently interesting, an argument is inherently interesting. So if we hear outside some people having an amicable conversation, we won't ebola to yet up.

If we hear a fight starting to break up, or two people shouting at each other will have our noses press to the window to see once. And journalists and newspapers and media know this. So they focus on those areas, whether is the greatest polar ization, which means you're focusing on the part of the problem, which is most difficult to solve.

So the example I give because i'm onna, move away from politics, because when you mentioned politics, everything suddenly drives people to this purification. I try, I aspire to be the most left wing person on the outer right. Okay, which is, which is, which is, I find the conversation of the out right inherently interesting.

But I try not to become part of IT. And I occasionally, and I write for the spectator, but I occasionally write about the virtues of Henry George, the insights of coal Marks, just to shake the whole thing up. Interesting by Marks, by the way.

OK, right? I mean, I think, I think the actual, the. Way how to put IT is the diagnosis is fascinating and the prescription is terrible.

Okay, pero, um now okay, that the perfect examples of where this problem goes wrong and this is very difficult if you work in advertising, in marketing because quite often you're not criticize zing, the intentionality or the aspiration of the person. You're merely saying that the way you're going about this isn't working very well. okay.

So yes, you know nearly all the aspirations of, say, the diversity and inclusion movement of those which we should all generally support and I don't want to ever get into that kind of weird, you know, I A weird thing where you start getting angry about trigger warnings because if you give me about ten minutes, thought you realize that trigger warnings are there. There a bit funny. And it's a bit weird when netflix says may contain nickey use, okay, which you know never put anybody off going to the cinema and ninety to forty six match you had to the cash of blank warning nat use.

It's a bit weird, okay, but it's a great idea, okay? Some people may be deeply upset by certain forms of content, and you should least give them in the opportunity to going to opt or to avoid IT. I I you know yeah okay.

We can debate what is triggering, but nonetheless broadly speaking and intelligent principle, I think note that the example I use won't be from politics, because politics automatically these people to become trial, and therefore they have to take a side. okay. And the example, I think is perfect as cycling.

miki. I didn't cycling. Miki is a youtube, a OK. And he goes around. He stands at a place in london called gandolf corner, and if he sees a car ducking around the wrong side of a keep left island, he just stands in front of IT and refuses to let the move, takes a photograph, reports them to the police. He, he's, he's got go, Richie.

I think he got, did he get go riche banned because he photographed him using a mobile phone while stationary, waiting for a set of traffic lights, and he sentences from footage to the police. He puts IT up on youtube. Okay, now I basically support what he's trying to do.

Okay, because I think cycling safety is incredible important than these people are doing bad things. Okay, we've all done IT is going okay. We've all use the mobile phone when driving. We've just been lucky enough to get away with IT.

And I wish i'd never done IT where cycling my he is less effective, however, is his mode of delivery, which is so comparative and so effectively polarizing, okay, that he actually becomes counterproductive now where you know he's well intention, which is he wishes to increase cyclist safety no, no, he's disagreeing that okay when he's less effective is in distributing people of the well established that all africa is a bustard because he does things which are inherently, first of all, is a little bit unfair because when he catches, when cyclists misbehave, when you can't report with the police because they don't have license plate. Secondly, he claims that if you stand in front of a cyclist or a motorcycle, they might fall off. So we can't actually stop motorcyclist and a cyclist performing agreements and illegal acts.

So he concentrate entirely on the motorist, but then he basically go stands in front of them on the road and then think we do things which, I mean, we don't really have a massive culture of vigilantism. This country reporting other people to the police is something we've pretty reluctant to do. You know, it's not a how mark of a nice culture when people are lagging, you know based lagging to the screws that used to be called in personal of self block age, right? Okay, it's something you just don't do.

But secondly, i'm there as a marketing guy. No, I support what you trying to do, but you've been driven into this extreme position where your purity special is so extreme that actually it's kind of productive. And so you you know you are very, very good at feeling confident in your own opinions, but actually your ability to bring now if you tice, in advertising, it's very rare that you're nasty to users of your competing product.

Okay, you don't get ford ads going. If you drive a oxford, you're a twat. Yeah OK. Because genuinely, people want to win over people who are either undecided or an arrival camp. And it's not a good idea and you won't see much a as to patronize them or to effectively becoming incredibly sanctimonious as he does. I mean extraordinary sanctimonious.

And I think it's I think it's a kind of example of a pattern you see where people's desire to be entirely on the right drives them to practice counterproductive behaviors because I mean, ah this you know for example, I think as a marketing guy, I can't help watching this good thing and say if you are actually very nice to those people and you handle them, a leaflet you'd produce yourself you know just warning them of cyclist safety. I think probably quite effective. yeah. I mean, I was actually, I went on a speed awareness course that if you .

have ever had to do IT pleasure.

I turned up thinking, this is total us. But i'm doing IT to avoid the points. IT was pretty worth mile.

And at the end of IT, I went away going OK. I have resorts quite a bit of my driving pattern as a consequence of what I learned from education. You can. So there's a huge problem, okay, which is that everything. Now, I think devis marris says this, which other was interesting? I was SHE had dinner, which he said he's the real reason he gets angry about the culture wars, which I think he's the right reason to be angry about them, is not because somebody who's wrong and somebody he's writing going to says what it's the extraordinary opportunity cost that while we are arguing about these things that are very difficult to decide, in which automatically polarized people, there are a hundred problems we can solve, okay, which would actually appeal to everybody.

Yes, he says, while the barbari ans are at the gates, will be debating about what gender they are.

Well, this is an interesting one because i'd also argue, let's take cyclists and motorists, okay, every in everybody's interest to effectively Foster hostility between these two. Even though, of course, quite lot of people travel both groups outside london. It's quite rare to be a cyclist who does not also own a car.

okay? Not, not, not totally rare. But most people outside london, most households have access to a car in some shape of reform and marine.

There is a imagine what you could have done if, instead of Fostering cyclist motorised hostility by focusing on the areas where there's the most discord and the most discribed, imagine if you both said, okay, there are two things. That one thing that motors hate cycles. Take him more portals right now.

Find them together.

Find them together and say, look, pop, elles are really annoying to Carry on because you're .

going to particularly .

if you are in one of those narrow, tired you know to tania Richard singing bobs with you like a and everything else. And so it's it's kind of interesting, which is the point is that the opportunity cost of this focus on problems that died, you know, problems where the solution acute e divides people is has a huge creative opportunity cost. Because the thing to do, if you have two people who disagree about something to change the question OK, obviously, we are not getting anywhere here. So let's just solve something else.

This is a quote from scot Alexander, which is really great. IT says, if you're interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will review your opponents ts arguments. But if you're interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents arguments. For them to win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter, you must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its cops.

Let me get cut back you with a quote, which is Thomas l. Um as I said, i'm the most left wing person on the alright. I'm a very bigger mr. Of quite a lot of people, so included activism. M is away for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism M A counterproductive with those they aim to be helping and damaging to the fabrication of societies a whole. okay.

Now one of the weird things about this movement, okay, and one of the most tiring things about being allegedly correct as a brit is, weirdly, you have to pretend your american because, okay, if you think about IT, okay, the loads of problems you can solve at the local level, this place here, okay, sort out the fucking signage, right? And now first old, you come into a place to find IT. And it's like this valentine's day, mexico a, you know, you come into this weird news, okay, where the only thing you can imagine happening there, IT, looks as a few of the interior dec. Has been done by p.

Docker, right? And then you got, the signs of the numbering is completely batched insane. And you can only read the the actual number of each door if the sun is at a particular angle, so that all these things we can do to solve problems is locally at a smaller level. But if you want to feel self important, you concentrate on the problems at the top. You know, things is like affected politics.

I mean, if you look at actually even things at the level of kind of probably not london actually, but if you look at that, I don't know why do we never get any coverage of, say, the mare of manchester or the mare of the west midland? We get a little coverage of Scottish politics, right? okay.

Because why? Because there's a massive divisive issue there, which gets people worked up, which is scotch independence. We're by the way, we're asking the wrong question anyway.

The question should be what kind of independence do we want not do we have independence or don't we completely lacking in nuance anyway, kay, you never going to cover IT, no cover IT. Now, very mind. The population of scotland is smaller than the population of york share.

okay? Most people realize that. They think because it's kind of lots of geographic area there, about fifty or twenty million people living in abandoned.

It's very small population because all the really tempted ones moved to whales in the one thousand nine th century. Sorry, that's just that's just my old additional story. So you know, in the search of people who weren't permanently angry, but nothing in particular. And so my great, the move from caf less to the south well valley, because he was going to invent this colleagues like the dubai, the of .

late ninety, the century, the late nineteen, first place in world .

where a million pound contract was signed was in cardiff. dogs. IT was cold. So IT was effectively the largest old exporting port in the world and but not your city german coal.

proper quality coal is sorry question for you, why is IT that when we look at the um exports of national identities from the U K. And island to the rest of the world. Uh england english people, we have a opposition, although we get referred to as being british.

You, uh, north n irish people kind of do. Southern irish people absolutely, definitely. do. You even Scottish people do.

H Scottish marketing brilliant. I mean as as a nation, brand is absolutely poor as early. Yeah.

why does no one what what's happened to whales? Why has not managed to establish itself on the global geopolitical branding?

There's an interesting debate about this one. One welsh commentator to shoot the message suggest that welsh people who move somewhere else very rapidly kind of lose their welshness and a simulate. Anyway, that's his argument. So if you look at the contribution of welsh americans, okay, now you've never heard, you've never heard that hyphen before.

have you? OK, where is american? Scottish american? Actually.

you never heard welsh american clues like Thomas jeffson. okay? IT includes arguably Elvis, about fifty percent of country singers.

Tell me, win IT real surname pew. O K, right? If you actually hillery clinton finally enough is, I think half welsh.

okay? So you have this. But but there is at me. If if you ask people who amErica about their welsh history, they may dimly know that they have some well ancestry.

IT barely extends to knowing where they got Scottish or irish ancestry. IT informs every fucking sell of their being, even if they are like a sixteen virus. They wearing Green things, you know, to the slight and on, by the way, of real large people.

I like that, okay, to be honest. okay. And quite a few people who are very proud of their irish heritage are actually descended from north irish protestants, what sometimes called in the united, said Scott irish. But they don't even know that. Okay so you know I think henery ford there are a huge irish american contingent of people who are effectively um from north island um but again, that distinction isn't really made.

There is argument that IT was at the time of the american civil war where people tended to take sides on that basis are not quite shorter um but generally that doesn't that hasn't pervaded until you know twenty twenty three. But the welsh have done a bad job. There's actually a group called global welsh which I belong to which looks at this question of kind of, I am the greatest.

Well, american, by the way, was going call rustle Carol hum phrase, who was number two to alcohol. I not making this up. okay.

So this guy who was, by the way, he was known by the, by the various feds and people out for him as the nicest man in the mob. okay? And big wells from, I think he was from cano, which is in kind of the middle kind of midnight ales. Tying of his parents were okay, and he was entirely welsh. And read my delate rustle murray murray in the camel humfrey and or marry the hump he was known as which is so either to do with hum freeze or to do with the fact that that they were a camel coat. But I think I think um he actively he would occasionally kill people, but he only negotiate negotiate first and I think one of the senior feds who are supposed to arrest him actually refused to turn up to arrest him because he liked him personally, okay, and didn't want to be part of the arrest. And he was also violent against cutting, by the way.

didn't didn't know that .

very research because .

it's really .

it's comically funny, the idea of a welsh guy in the mob.

I looked at a study recently that showed an inverse correlation between marriage length and cost of engagement ring and wedding combined that the more that is spent on the engagement ring and the more than to spend .

you almost in pure economic terms, you'd expected to way round, because the sunk cost of red skin in the game should ensure the duration of the wedding equally. What are you trying to prove?

Yes, yes, yes. What have you learned? You must have some insights about engagement rings and the heritage in their history.

I mean, what he is what is interesting is that um um there is a degree where what you're practicing there is a former commitment device. Other words, it's an unrecoverable sunk cost, which is up front expense being proof long term commitment. And i've made that point that some advertising works that way.

okay. In other words, you wouldn't spend a fortune advertising this car if IT were a waste of time for me to test drive IT. Okay, so once you spend the money on advertising, it's gone.

Therefore, the only possible value of the of advertising is that IT leads to a sale. Therefore, if you are advertising a new product heavily, you are confident, rightly or wrongly. Ly, but IT does matter you yourself who know the product Better than the bad, as is confident in terms of its long term appeal and desirability, went test DRAM. And so you some part of advertising undoubted works through share. Costly expenditure are costly signals.

Wasn't you you guys did the study where heavy weight paper was the most effective thing to increase charity donation?

yes. Now you'll never ever get what's so interesting about some of this. Research uncovers things which people feel but don't even think or say.

So there's this quote probably wrongly attributed to David gravy that he said the trouble in market research is that people don't think what they feel, they didn't say what they think and they didn't do what they say now. Now everybody would say that a charity donation should be sent out on the cheapest st. Paper possible because you should minimize your marketing cost.

What we ve found is that when you put slightly more expensive paper in the donation envelope is for Christian aid week, actually slightly more people give, but people give much more largest donations. So the volume of donations over fifty or a hundred pounds was significantly increased. Now that's unconscious.

It's probably, you know, if this thing is flm zy and there may be a certain ary of reciprocation in that which is y've sent me a bit of nice bit of paper. I O them fifty equity. I mean, now the unit, how IT works, by the way, why IT works, you could come up with four or five different possible explanations. But those kind of things are really fascinating because they are, they belong to that field of activity, which you can only prove through testing, market research, when telling the answer. Pure theory weren't telling the answer.

you have to test. I am not a very prejudice man, but given my background as a nightlife club promoter living in breathing .

flyers and paper for a very long time.

you club game where you created, let me, let me give you this one first. So one of the few prejudices that I have in my life is against single sided fliers. Single sided fliers are around about ninety percent, is expensive to do double sided flies, because almost all flies are double sided. My second biggest prejudice are against double sided flies with the same thing printed on both sides. You have two sides of a piece of paper that.

because he says, I can't even build here. What's we put on the back?

Just put the same thing. Command c command. We send IT. I don't care. Then after that, just tiny, tiny little things that you can do, we found that if you go something spot uv, which is the kind of glass that you put over the top of the piece of paper that give, gives you a smooth finish. If you get uncoated, doesn't that much more again. And if you go a little bit heathy A G S M, you get this almost sort of organic fairy filled to IT. It's like every innocent smooth label IT kind of feels a bit more kind of raw and organic and a natural.

We see what we told him here is this brilliant thing, okay, which is is very simple if you want to solve problems, okay, which you stopped trying to think like newton, and come up with universe university, the applicable context, three laws, okay, that's been done OK school physics, okay, we've done that. Instead you go to think like Darwin.

okay? Now we mentioned earlier this this difference between effectively evolutionary thinking, which I think the evolution is study of how things change, not how things are. okay. That's a fundamental difference.

You mean.

well, evolution can the most banana description of evolution, but which is also incredibly insightful as things are the way they are, because they got that way, which sounds like absurdity.

But when you, when you actually think a little bit more deeply, then IT forces you to ask the question, well, how do I get that way? And where else can we go from here? You know, what are the tools are disposable to to get from here to somewhere Better? Okay, now, one of the things I think that is obstacle to a problems solving.

I think the reason that comedians are often evolutionary thinkers, Ricky of being obvious case, but john key is another one. Okay, absolutely fascinated by, you know, evolutionary thought because it's A G it's a gateway to complexity. It's a gateway to thinking in terms of complex systems and complex systems changing over time. And and it's an escape from the idea that there must be universe laws. I have a friend called jandola, a known on the web is hanging noodles, who always argues that we monotheistic cultures like Christianity, have a disadvantage in our thinking, because, unlike hindus, we are prone to what he cause, monotheism.

We need one theory to explain everything, okay? And he points out that actually in hinduism know we don't have that problem because we are used to the fact that there the elephant in the, and I think I think he said his mother praised on on an alta which has an elephant, a monkey and jesus on IT, right? And there's no there's no inherent contradiction to that.

Now what what i'm print hopeful about having a hindu u prime minister because I think if we unleashed his lack of monotheist m and freed him from political dma, he could be crazy ly, really quite interesting. But that complexity thing is really interesting because one of the things that you you need to lose in order to understand complex systems is an idea of what you might call discussing things that make you look important. One person little high to all.

And that's that. You know, I notice this with the former chief executive. You know, if he was interviewed instead of talking about advertising, you know, he always talk about like the fed and genet yelling, you know, and likely interest rate rises.

Okay, right? And that's kind of that's a self important thing to talk about. Weirdly, people in britain, instead of solving british problems, somehow weird, the adopt american.

it's a thing and it's .

a signal thing, which is I care about these things as and I am so important that i'm only going debate at the very highest level, yes, OK. And so I mean, they're all these people. People go right down to defund the police in the united states.

I am a brit, right? First, deval, my responsibility for what I think is a terrible criminal justice system. My responsibility of that ended in seventy and seventy six.

Okay, I don't think it's great, but it's not my problem. okay. Secondly, I wanted to start some brits demonstrations going on, going this on the police, because it's not so interesting.

Is your amErica this defund the police is debate. The idea that the police shouldn't Carry guns is probably to them, so bizarre that they think you're insane. Other things in the united states, four weeks of paid vacation.

Okay, i've never met anybody in britain. So right wing that they think we should have less holiday time. Nobody zero, nobody ever at we and other two percent on GDP growth if we just got rid.

People's lives doesn't happen, never exist.

Those things actually, once you have them, their air rise, their japanese toilets. Once you have them.

there's no going everyones in .

a ground once once you got that, you never go back. okay. And i'm kind of get you know, first of all, you you have to put down if you look at what Darwin did to have what he's probably one of the five biggest insights to be onest.

I mean, i'm going to stand up around for a rustle wallace, not least because I was born in lamb ada, which is the same village that he was born in tiny welsh village. And my ambition is to be I I think you probably already succeeded. Is that the second best evolutionary? Think you're born in land?

Dada, I think that that kind of attainable, sensible ambition. Okay, but I really worried this. Something crop up. You know, you know, imperial college, one of the .

best evolutionary psychologist .

based exact Price. yeah. And the last week I spoke the role institution that I made the prediction that I was probably only the second first and from lambada ever two have focused at the role institution.

And sure if I think Alfred Russell wall is sort there in sort of one eighteen sixty whatever IT will Spiked into the twenty eighth century actually um but but if you don't know what Darwin didn't what russia wall is did. Okay, they didn't. They didn't get involved in self for grandison theory.

First they went around interesting, funny little places, and they looked at the beaks of fishes. Okay, now I think if you want to solve political problems, actually, this is when I love working and advertising. Okay, because you can get down into the weeds of microscopic things like what's the effect of choice architecture on property selection, or indeed dating websites.

You can actually, we have a kind of montreal behavioral science speak, is you dare to be trivial because our argument is, in a complex system, quite often the things that make a difference may be surprisingly small, that kind of butterfly effects. And your job is to look for the point of intervention in the system where the smallest change has the biggest effect. But mister fuller called IT trim tab.

Okay, on his gravestone, IT says, call me trim tab and the trim tab I did. I non engineer. But it's the bit on the end of a rubber, I think gonna ship or play, which only moves slightly, but it's the greatest point of leverage in terms of turning that chip like next through rudder on the end of a rudder or something OK.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

And my point is that we have and I had an experiment with someone who is, I think, was a political correspondent of the fp, and I said, when john major, you, I love you, listening to be too Young to remember this, but i'm always conscious this. I I find myself doing things right now, explaining what a fax machine was and things like that. But when he invented the cones hotline, he was widely ridiculed for that.

Okay, so he invented this thing, which was A A phone number where you could report coes that were blocking off the road where no road works were being performed. And you could also said, you know, you could also get advances warning of where comes were going to be at the time he came up with that he was the prime minister, okay? And this was regarded as the most communal and absurd thing you could possibilities.

like everyone was terrorized by roving .

bands of cause he solving a problem which you like potos, which annoyed a great number of people all the time. okay? And he was non controversial, but he was considered absolutely benefits dignity. Well, my argument is that probably the way you solve big problems is by tinkering around with a lot of small things, and then sometimes the big problems just weirdly go away. Okay, I think that tackling problems head on is usually counterproductive. But the argumentation tendency that people want to win an argument rather than solving a problem, first of all, causes this tribal polarization, which means that people very rapidly then start saying, I won't actually argue for what's good. I'll argue for whatever part of action most annoyed my opposing tribe.

correct? Yeah, it's not what's most effective. It's what signals that I am a accolate.

Yes, i'm a devoted, unquestioning of this particular .

let me i've up with this idea of the unreliable ally. So if I know one of your reviews and from that I can accurate predit everything else you believe you're probably not a serious thing of because you've put your .

entire world ideology on dominic ings, great insight was he said that effectively the language of left or right is is a tribal convenience for people who are into political cosplay. Right is, is rather like you. okay? Most people kind of interested in politics in the way that I am interested in star wars, which is what should, if that happens to be on.

But i'm not going to go to a convention and dresses darth vader. okay? And politics is full of the kind of people who dress up as delve vada. And you get unbelievable, be involved in insane details of, you know, how the federation is actually the government governance of the federation of, I think, okay, most people are like that. The other inside of dominoes was, he said, most people in reality are both more left wing and more right wing politicians is fully understands the ordinary people in a way as say, or and more diverse politically than the people who have been forced to take sides.

They get reduced down to a dashboard, right? And that isn't able to fully capture, you know, one vote from somebody doesn't fully PS you like just how far right and how far left you. Because on baLance, you aggregated that you are a bit left, so you voted labor. You are a bit right, so you voted conservative .

voiding their identity, arian thing. I mean, I right for the spectator public, because the weird thing is that would have been complete. Let you know that's not fair. okay? Actually that's not fair. I was gone to say that in the one thousand nine hundred and seventy IT would have been the opposite where the right way press got much more anonymous about you writing something left wing, the vice versa.

Actually that's probably not fair of the british, but very interesting, by the way, which is if you're american, okay, there's quite a simple narrative which you can reasonably believe, which is the most progress socially, not as server economically, but most social progress happens under a democratic regime. okay? So you go back to say, boats for women.

That was my cousin woodrow, who is devery bizarre. He's like my fourth cousin twice, through his member's english from the Scottish family. Okay, just to even things out. My my other trace american relative is in prison in washington state for kidnapping and attempted murder.

So swings around about right ah but the interesting thing there is that you know most of those kind of forward movement to the civil rights movement is that happened under in a democratic regime okay. And so it's very easy if you take the american narrative on board, which is basically there are these well intention democrat people who do nice things, and then republicans tend to be nasty. I don't think that maps rainey onto the U.

K. okay. So if you look at the U. K, votes for women was actually a conservative government. The nh. Was set up undoubtedly by a labor government, actually, but actually on the recommendations of beverage, he was liberal, okay, I think same sex marriage as a conservative government.

I think the legalization of, by the way, if you go back, the guardian supported the south in the public civil war, okay, the spectator or a right in publication, was about the only publication in the U. K. To support the union against the confederacy.

The spectator, in the one thousand nine hundred and sixty, okay, was known as the bug ge's bugle for its campaigning for the legal ization of homosexuality. okay? And another force that was absolutely decisive in that campaigns be zoned the church of england.

So those that not that bizarre, because if you can see the number of six years, see the a church of d okay, that at the time they work quite a few, trust me, okay, but but i'm actually there was an not be with category at some point in the sixties who kind of needed protection because of his position on that matter. If if you want to see a really advanced ed group in terms of being head of the curve on anything is the quake ers. And if you're an imperial ist, everybody would become, you know, what we really need is a quicker revival.

Okay, the thing is, you can have a demonstration. Can you IT as a quake year, what do we want? Okay, don't really work.

But by points that actually if you look at IT, if you look at the british social progress, I mean, know the antislavery campaign is some of the motor I okay shaft grey walls. It's actually british progress is much, much less easy to uh kind of stereotype then in the united states. And so you actually look at the, you do look at the history of different publications and their opinions on different things. The idea actually, which my kids seem to absorb, which was everything was horrible til left wing people came along and .

made IT Better, which is.

is this force of history think is kind of a bit born out I have to say in the you, you is complicated. Obviously it's a bit, you know, you could say, well, there is some empirical evidence for that in the united states, although you had a democratic party, which was completely weird for you know, while the south was overwhelmingly democrat, you had that kind of weird and holy a listing going on, but it's not really safe.

And this business of taking american concerns because they're the most important because it's america, okay, and getting wildly excited about them in the U. K. Even though our problems are different OK.

So I i'll give you just a very something up with this, which is, you know if you do about White privilege, okay yeah to something exam, the beneficiary in Augustly of exactly that. But any point I make is that one was one of the reasons i'm White. Okay, I put for the obvious ones one of the reason why is I was born in the U.

K. In one thousand nine hundred sixty five. When I think someone correct on this, the population of the U. K. Was one ninety seven percent White, okay, in one thousand hundred and sixty five.

So you know the odds that i'm gonna White, it's not like it's it's not a situation at the united states where you had generations of people effectively, unfairly disappoint tage. Okay, the people who are disappointed hadn't arrived at the point when I was being born to, to the most part, okay. Now, as a consequence, simply transport american history and american preoccupations and american narratives and imposing them on australia, the U.

K. France, okay, doesn't really work. And yet these people do IT because they want to identify themselves with the highest profile, the biggest debates to know jw, so they can take sides.

And that's completely and immaculate. You know, we we got other things to be guilty off. If we're britz, let's be onest. Okay, it's very instantiated. I had a great who's none for pologies called bitterness blackwood who spent her her life kind connected to the pit rivers museum and her diary is survive. And sometime about one thousand nine hundred and twenty three, he went to memphis, I think might have, I think, with members.

I interesting, you know, how does fairly, in our vision, anthropologists, fairly conventional english women of one thousand nine hundred and twenty three, upper middle class family, how does he act? Go to the american south in one thousand, and I thought her action we got, this is really, you know, tiny bit, is a bit dog IT off, you know. But SHE horrified.

I M there's just these pages of her raging against the fact that he wasn't even allowed to visit a black household because they wouldn't allow her in because if word got out that a White woman had been in their house, they're be trouble. Okay, now yes, we got we got lives of flows over here, which we can solve when we can look at. But I don't think there's a wonderful case from your part of the world, isn't there? Which is a battle where the hubs refused to eni access to coloured serviceman when they were abated somewhere in the northeast. Dos, not sure you are monkey hanger.

technically a .

smoggy, smoggy .

referred to the C. I. A huge big instal got IT speeds out all manner of smokers.

But I mean, different countries, you know, the situation in canada is fundamentally different, different situation elsewhere. And the idea that you have to solve problems by basically looking to the united states and then just importing wholesale, whatever happens to be the fashionable topic, do you over there seems to be crazy. And I in the U. S. I be competing a way for four weeks paid vacation, which would benefit everybody.

Yeah, that seems to be the vanguard of social change. Should be paid vacation in a bit more eternity.

The only person is jesson that was berny Sanders. Everybody thought he was .

some sort of communist. I'm not sure if that was just because of that, that they thought he was a communist, but then maybe other reasons as well. One of my favorite stories that i've learned over the last couple of years about David ogle y that i've never got a chance to talk you about was when fortune published on an article entitled IT is David go of the agencies question mark? I asked my lawyer to sue the editor of the question mark.

i'm is .

really treat that.

Funny enough, he's interesting case in point because he is a university dropout OK. He didn't have a agree. He was when he started the agency.

He was former chef, failed tobacco farmer. I think during the war he's been in M. I.

sick. Someone wasn't ton as well. He was going to be in flaming character. And yeah, yeah, actually he he inflaming, by the way, was also successful, in a sense, relatives late in life.

And by the way, we need more of these stories because, you know, you can read, you is never too late. Kon son, as you know, sorry, was sixty five when he found a captured ki fried chicken that was okay. And David gravy was a kind of kernels under advertising.

He was really, he had the advantage of surviving for a long time. There are people within og who think that his brother Frances, who tragedy died Young and was basing the U. K.

Rather than the us, was as much the brains behind the Operation as David was. But I I met him once fortunately and I knew his wife quite well as widow now. Um and yeah I think he had some advantage is okay. So he was doing advertising at first for fairly aspirational products at a time of great american Angella phila. So he is advertising in this rose rose swept um the uh english tourist board for example, which allowed him to do a particular style of kind of aba aspirational advertising at a time when most american advertising was quite crash .

crash yeah was too an educated audience they could .

famous ly that rolls rice verses at six miles now appeared only twice and IT was in the wall street journalist was sixty miles. Now, the loud of sound in this new OS rises, the ticking of the electric clock. What is IT that makes the rose rise the best car in the world? There really is no magic about IT. IT is simply patient detention to detail seasonal and rolls rice engineer, I even memorized the sub had, but if he was very, the one thing everybody can learn from him is writing.

And he is closest, I think, as a prose writer, if you read his books, one of his book is terrible wordly, which I think is got blood, brains and beds is good for the rest of the books are excEllent um I think everybody is allowed one bad book um but um it's a wonderful postings le very similar account doll and that is very, very simple and easy to read every sort of fifty seventh word being a slightly more complicated or slightly more high polluting word just to remind the reader that the writer is in an idiot. And I think it's it's actually a great approach to communication, which is that little signaling of in the rolls rice advertisement if you are too difference to rive, a rose rice, you can drive yeah and he says you have a bit with the less kind of grandiose radiator girl effectively and he know. And so he was he was actually it's a probably actually, you know other people who are big fans of that kind of proceed kingsland. Amis was a big admire of colonial, and it's a particular ware of writing which is incredible, easy to read, but at the same time really intelligent and quite a bain.

What I really, what I really loved about, at least my research that I have managed to a David ogilvy is a his approach to engendering, which you guys have obviously continued now and generating this, there are no wrong answers. Creativity, kind of culture, which I think is really great.

It's a huge, I mean, I was saying to some plan, see, on the day we actually we make IT easy for ourselves in one way, which is is one of very few corporations that this is why variance in the comedy world, and very interesting other forms of anomalous economic activity, if you like, where you're actually paid to be weird and you you don't realize how rare and precious IT is until you move into intel, you encounter management consultants, okay, where the whole thing is kind of template ted formula gue.

They recruit engineering graduates, which further way is a terrible waste of engineering talent. I want engineer is going in making bloody things, and I want them bloody well producing power pone dex, that sort of two hundred pounds an hour. What a waste.

You, you know, these people could be producing space rockets or something, but instead they're going in producing these f ing powerpoint decks or management consulting firms and the value of actually having so most organizations, first, all regard logic as a good proxy for, in other words, the cause of action that has the best argument attached must be the best course of action. And what's unusual? And advertising and comedy and a few other things.

Music, obviously, I guess, is that we don't buy that that we don't buy the idea that whatever has a good argument attached to IT must be right because there's probably a Better idea which comes from left field, which you won't arrive that through prerational ization. You can only post rationalize IT. 那 that distinction， by the way, is quite interesting.

I won't go into the whole thing about child's rustle purse, brilliant american philosopher, the nine hundred and century. And I won't go into the stuff about, you know, the whole thing of abducting, inference being a different form, mental process. But if you look at actually quite a lot of pharmaceutical progress, okay, actually happens backwards, okay, it's not we have this disease we need to cure IT who look, let's do these things.

Here's a cure. Those processes generally lead to fairly well, actually not that reliably, you tolerable incremental progress over a very long period. Now let's not discount that just over a period of eighty years, we do get Better at things.

The real breakthrough things happen backwards. Okay, which is viagra, penny illan. In other words, it's almost a cure for which there is no known disease, rather than the disease .

which use this for giving people actions.

What happened with papers intended as an nanna remedy vaga. And there are two stories about IT, one of which is that the nurses noticed that when the guys came in for that kind of people on the trial, when they came in for their kind of check up, they were sitting in a really weird way OK.

The other story i've heard is that at the end of the trial, they were told, well, okay, we're obviously processing the trial results, which were pretty inconclusive as far as i'm so could you hand back any unused pills you have to which the response in every previous trial? And yes, you, here they are. And this problem went, no, there's also a fascinating story, which is that a german pharmacy, al company, got there first notice the side effect, and immediately rejected the drug.

Okay, because they failed to see the opportunity to, in other words, as any a cure that calls people to go around in a prieto c state of two mesons was obviously no good as an in the medication, and they failed to see beyond IT, which is that now i'll tell you, two other stories of this are talking to other people. One of the great things about being advised to me as you just going talk to, i've to be honest, okay, most discussion and decision making argumentation is top down. Most progress is bottom up of horizontal.

okay? So we organize organizations in the absolute worst way for problem solving, which is what you, what you need is people who know quite a bit about three different things to solve. A, because more and more modern problems aren't problems within a specialism, their problems that involve the combination of two specialisms.

So anyway, he is interesting one, which is a drunk company. I was speaking to, giving a talk to and to be onest. I think I learned, as I know, I give these talks company, and often only about them as they do for me, but they pay me so fine.

okay? This is a case where they were looking at drugs to treat auto mune diseases, such as ritta reuters. And what happened was that some of the drugs they tested were appalling, right? Because they actually have the opposite effect, they boosted the immune system.

And of course, if you're got a disease where your immune system is attacking, your own body is the worst in other day. So they put these on the shelf from go, okay, no rule that out. And then someone a little while later goes thing if you're trying to practice immunotherapy for cancer, a drug that strengthens the immune system, that's not a bug.

That's a feature. okay. And similarly, that happened with lightness, which is one of my favorite marketing stories, where they were looking when they created lightness.

This is long before there was something called dinner. Okay, they were looking to produce A A flu remedy. And they produced a very successful, they should be, was treating, actually, of treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

okay? But they produce this flu treatment. So not a remedy, but a treatment, uh, which had was brilliant.

But the downside was IT sent you to sleep so you couldn't drive or Operate heavy machinery, regular Operate every machine. But as I love that warning, yeah, I love that you fuck I was about to do so. Have you .

driving has been taking company?

It's rather like that video message, which is you just to show this video on a oil rig. Do you have rever in the beginning of the H. S. Video is IT said, this is not license for the display of oil riggs and .

you Better people.

five hundred dollars out of the north egg. You know, any moment now someone is going to turn up from the copyright licensing and thin A, B, P, I get to be in trouble. And but anyway, the fascinating thing is that what happened is they said, okay, says no good, that sends people to sleep.

And then a little guy, I always said the story, a little guy kind of from the marketing department and actually, if you position IT is a nighttime flu remedy, okay, the fact that, that sends you to to sleep is a bonus. It's not a problem. So lightness was born by basically reframing.

And this is what I said about high speed too. I said high speed too is a terrible answer really um in the sense that IT goes to the wrong speed on the wrong route. Lots of things are terrible about, you know, the whole thing was misconceived. But IT was the first thing that was wrong about high spirit was the question they asked.

And they ask an engineer question, which is, how do you transport x people over? Why miles at a time of that? T okay, right. And so they set down those kind of mathematical parameters.

Now, a marketing person would have asked different question, which is a much more interesting, open ended question, which has far more scope for expanding the solution of space to allow for creative solutions. And the question of marketer would have asked is, how do you make the train service between manchester in london so good and so enjoyable? People feel stupid driving now. Speed, obviously. okay. Speed may be .

part of connectivity.

catering, okay. A variation of seating. So, you know, I mean, you remember strangers on a train, those hitchcock films, whether you to have the observation car, the back of the track, fuck me, every time you want.

This is a train in the one thousand nine hundred and fifties. You go, oh god, I wish I had trains like that. Even had a smoking thing at the back, didn't they? Now, I didn't have a crazy idea, which is, if you spend the money, okay, did.

This is hypothetical, but this is my comedy is so important. It's much more easy to start silly and rain IT back then IT is to start boring and rain IT forwards as IT work. And I said, just a hypothetical exercise.

If you spend, if you kept the tracks the same and he's spent all the money on both buying and recreating the world's greatest steam locomotives, right? And you ran the trainers from manchester, like you're train at nine fifteen, we pulled by the union pacific. Big boy, okay, or the method, or a replica of the Melody.

Now, IT would be slower. okay? I assume the wifi could be quite good. You wouldn't go into full you know, kind of sixteen century of, you know mid twenty years century nostalgia. Every single tourist to london would go to manchester just to ride on the effing train, right? If you have a replica a of the bloody Terry potter train, okay, you know, to get people coming to london so they could travel to manchester.

You think that the way i've got a friend who's the warden of an oxford college, a former boss of mind, and the tourist visitors to oxford colleges basically have completely by located, there are colleges which nobody visits, and their colleges which are swarming with tourists. The entire discrimination ata between those two is whether the college features in the Harry potter film ww. So new college of that has a tree, apparently, which is featured in one of the films, and that has tourist swarming in.

You can have a tactic. College architecture, my gives them, didn't feature in Harry potter. You know, basically it's points. What want you call those things is that blow through the place?

whee? yeah. yes. What's your thoughts on the abandonment of this billion dollar train thing in recently through you go in hand .

the job to drive, said this, you go in hand one hundred million pounds to john y. Ive and I ve and his mate mark newson. Markus australian design and already has formed here because he designed the qantas business last seat, which in opinion is the best battery never on business, is the best airline seat ever conceived by the whit of man.

And you say, you give them the brief, okay? We've got this stupid railway going along this stupid route. How do you make IT? Just absolutely amazing.

When john y, i've back in the U. K, right? I'm sure hundred million, and get him out of bed, okay? And you just get, okay. You're in charge of the design of the train interior. S, you're charged the catering, the connectivity.

Your brief, open, brief, make this journey so amazing that people want to go on the train for the sake of the train, not for the sake of the journey. That's the brief. It's the brief that kunar effect had. okay. So when jet, jet aircraft were invented, okay, the blue ribbon, which was that competition for how fast you across the atlantic, became, to be honest, a bit of an academic exercise.

Because if you could get there and under a day by playing, even if you had to review in gender IT didn't really matter whether the Q E is the queen, mary was faster than the bloody united states saw the NorMandy anymore. K, so, you know, basically had to go. okay? We got to stop thinking of these ships as a source of a former transportation.

They're going to be a destination in ourselves. And consequently, they kind of invented the cruise ship industry sort up, and I didn't give them one hundred percent credit, but that idea of cruise PS, when you think about you bought a cruise ship, you go around the circle, you come back, I mean, you do visit some time for a journey, you know. But actually the cruise ship is as much of a destination as the destination is. And you can do that with high speed too.

Yeah.

what would you do? Train twister is my suggestion. Solution to train over crowding is to turn close proximately to other people, from an analyze to a source .

of entertainment. Okay.

lot of instability. I did think of the legal, but you know your next station .

is head corn.

left, hand yellow, right? OK.

yeah, yeah, yeah. come. Um you've also got the the issue. I suppose i've seen a lot of the people that travel up and down this country is getting older. Yeah and i'm not sure whether you'd have to have at each different stops. Some paramedic perhaps are a physio that the that is .

part of the appeal of the crucial industry to the elder leaf in the united states, which is you got a doctor on board.

right?

You got three weeks where your medical cares basically .

taking care of if you mbo tumble down water slide.

quite not relevant. And by the way, if your cruise doctor, you're a sitting good doctor because you've got to be able to cope with everything you can't special. Yes, you give someone es on board and two hundred miles from land.

You can't. I'm every so is not my specialism.

I bet you're going to be a shit hot journalist.

What would you do to improve business class flights?

interesting. Yeah a good idea for that for short hole, which is really mysteries. You know how they would say the the biggest car company in the world, ub does know any cars and the biggest you accommodation company in the world, airbnb does known any houses. I've got this idea of staff airline that does known any planes. Okay, and this is, I didn't think of having a raping airline.

I did wonder about that on just vapp on board. Saw that like .

a wapping tax, wapping such A H D classes.

S but I don't wondered about that.

But actually my idea was you buy a country house near stanstead, okay? And every time you fly, okay, you park your car at this country has okay, you're checking your luggage and the county house is is like the party in the wolf of wall street, okay, right? It's like ice wide shot, okay? It's absolute total appearance.

okay. And then when you're ready to fly, you're driven in you know doctor vils car bage causes and s class Mercedes where the windows blackout isn't know okay, which is I don't like you know it's kind of like, you know doctor evils natural convey the sua choice k. You're driven to the plane you welcome to a ryan air flight OK and the ryan air flight costs you said seven quid and they cost two hundred and fifty equate to use the that your nightmares mote right yeah ah we can go into business thing i'm ready to go.

So the whole idea is, okay, the bit on the plane is only an hour IT doesn't really matter if it's right air of, okay, you know you could do a thing where you book the middle seat out, okay? So you go a bit of space, but basically you use rn air. And the whole aim is you make the airport experience amazing, where you're literally ferried to the plane, then the plane.

But you don't try compete because is a limit, what you can do at thirty thousand feet to make IT amazing? Yes, what the limit illegal to make IT, what legal that were making amazing is quite, there are lots of illegal things i'm sure you can do, make IT more amazing. They make an amazing. But we draw well over that.

We say, yeah, what? So we talking only run about kind of this a culture of creativity that you guys have managed to Foster and kind of perpetual. Well, I know that you spoke in a rec room and yes.

I know that was fantastic.

You think a lot about creativity for yourself.

By the way, rick, ask me a question, which I want to ask you. He said, why having you moved to the united states and you have a moved to the united states? Now you move to Austin, which I think is very clever yeah. Because I think Austin is actually an interesting game, which is americans are choosing IT because they want to live within a cool, a cool culture rather than the cash culture. Okay, in a sense, the status game in Austin is slightly different.

You've read that pole grain essay. Each city whispers something different to you.

lovely. Yes, I have. But well, yeah, he's interest.

You know, you go to miami. Miami whispers to you, you are as important as the watch on your rest, or the shoes that you are or the car you drive. Yeah, right. A L A whispers to you, you are as important as entertained the people that you know and .

the people who know a club, which is only for people who don't work in the entertainment industry, because any other club they join, they are automatically at the bottom. You can, you can own some business, you know, literally a billion doll business. You can own IT. But in L, A, if you go to the same club as the clubs, you're basically treated tight.

Film second class.

They have a kind of separate club for people who armed in the filming today. fascinating. And L, A, you right, whispers london's very complicated because it's the bloody center of everything from government to advertising to business to.

you know what he says, london, london whispers to you. But yeah, so that also has a great .

advances of being a democractic city in a republican state.

Have people say that blue dot, red ocean thing? I see no one that's liberal. Everybody that there is in some degree based or conservative.

I sorry, really.

really that's what I see.

And I mean, I assumed you I assumed of heaven, which is it's short range left wing and long range right wing, which is so I go out making by really good coffee, made by people with interesting body. But then in the afternoon I can drive into the desert and fire machine guns and oil driver.

both of something true. Yeah, that's all that is Austin in a nut hell? But definitely one of the things that into.

I absolutely adore text. So i've so much, I been having the old dig, united days, my cause, modern was present to the fact place. But, uh, I have to say that, uh, texas, I found absolutely love. Now i'm a brave.

I'm a White guy that actually IT seems to me I got a texin colleague was not all texans get on pretty well because they are all texans, okay? They have an identity which transfers other things, okay. Now Austin, you say that actually you find oddly that you don't find that kind .

of blue dot or I don't know, man, it's I .

how much I love I selection .

effect, because the people that i'm around are gone to be people who have maybe achieved a degree of financial freedom that cause them to learn more right or whatever.

But this definitely, like low taxi, is correct.

There's definitely a freedom to and a freedom from culture. So there is a freedom to do the things that I want. There is a freedom from any of the fucking interventions of the people from washington nett tara. But going back to the creativity thing that the people who want to try and get a, they want to artificially inseminate their creativity muscle, yes. What are some of the things that you advise, the guys that you work with, the companies you work to do, to engender a creative culture.

study biology, not just sort of physics and maths. S in other words, study complex things. Um I have a kind of weird theory which might form a chapter in my next book, which is, in a weird kind of cops, a Better scientists than scientists are.

okay. Now let me explain. Okay, if so, one of the things I recommend is read a lot of true life crime. Okay, study that comes up. By the way, there's a fantastic Andrew shouldn't routine on this, on his wife's propensity to watch films about serial killers.

Female obsession with serial killers is never going to make sense to me.

do. How could I have IT as well? So is is great.

Because my wife and I both, I think he likes this as a lot of psychology. I like much, just killed. But then, right, I only joke .

bonover your love of truth.

There is a really interest thing about reading about a true life crime, which is it's one case where you get extraordinary amount of detail study into the life. If you read those you know books about a piece of suncor ff in his family, you are an extraordinary amount detail into a family which in many cases, is complete in the ordinary, except for the obviously the outlier that somebody killed somebody or a lot of people.

So, you know, you do get that weird thing, which is a very deep study, not into a major historical figure, accepting the worst possible sense, but now that IT is interesting, but what IT is about detective work is your kind of working. And okay, there's a coton dial peace. So I actually running ough.

One of the, I think one of the sources of my creativity was obsessively reading show at home short stories as a fairly Young kid. Okay, my behavioral science thing was probably weirdly reading esop, who is the really the first behavioral scientist, even though he lived in the sixth century B. C.

You know, jesus was also pretty good behavior scientist. S, if you look at IT, the parable of the lost sheep is basically loss aversion. Okay, you have really interesting things like, you know the parable of the winyah is you perceived equity actually there's a there's a have a lot of behavioral science in jesus serious.

So that's my third book. You know there's that book. Jay Austin was a game theorist, okay, right? My thing is going to be my first book going to be jesus was a behaviorally called me.

right? I wonder how that once going to go.

Yes, I do don't know how it's going to get, but but actually what what curtain door talks about through the my piece of your homes is this business of reasoning backwards and he said that everybody knows how a reason forwards this has happened. So this is gonna en next and it's the natural mode of thinking. Reasoning backward is not actually that difficult to do, but most people don't do IT.

And that is, if you think about a detective, a work of detection, it's this thing has happened. Now we have to find out what were the preexisting conditions that LED to this outcome. And in advertising, forward thinking, creativity is we want to get to this place.

In the words of rob drill Martin, a very brilliant business, grow. What would have to be true for this to come about? I think that's the question.

Why where a lot of political movements that and ask they have a hypothesized ideal future, okay? And they don't subtend ask the question, okay, what needs to happen between now and and I will play the ham, your delt. We happen to be here.

We want to get there. Let's not just ignore where we are, and immediately effectively fantasized into existence as a perfectly need a society because change doesn't work like that. You have to start where you are.

You have to play the yes, yes.

It's very, very easy to say, why did you take them so long to, you know, give votes for women centra seta. But actually, if you look at the reality of IT, these things take time and also persuasion is slower than legislation, but it's persuading that actually makes things work. Have you got the I just made that distinction with in regard to drink driving, okay, the breath lizer, you know pending points, license ban for driving for americans.

Americans, we don't have a distinct from driving under the influence and driving while intoxicated. If you're basically and toxin, you lose your license. Okay, in the legislation sort of work.

But a lot of people in my parents generation thought I was a bit naughty to get caught over the limit. And my parents didn't drive drunk. I just want to absorb them that, but some of their contemporary did. And my parents wouldn't stop someone leaving the house if they had too much to drink. Theyd encourage them to stay, but they wouldn't, like grab their car keys. Now, when something makes IT where its way from being imposed to being adopted, what you see in my children's generation is they would resting one of their friends to the ground before they got into car over the limit.

So amErica is so different to this, I know so differently attitude of americans to people drink drive is like you'll be at some bar or something. So we going to go to such as such a place to come. All right.

Okay, brilliant ing. That is newbies waiting outside and someone gets into, i've just watched you think, three moderators over the last hour and no one, no one really bats. And I I saw this amazing video finit nothing.

He's like that as well. I live. Yeah, yeah. I mean, uber has probably reduced this to some degree, but the extent to which people used to drive around L. A. And talk, my brother in law, who lived there for quite a few years, just could not get his head rounded at all.

There was a great video of when they first introduce the, you can drink and drive， drink and drive, not drink, then drive, you can't drink and drive. And they're talking to these guys and and girls from the deep south amErica they are all in. You beat up chevy trucks or whatever, and interviewing them through the window.

And this dude SAT there. And there's another one of the woman is a child on passengers, seat without seat yet on beer between legs, saying, I don't know what this countries is coming to the a guy can finish hard day at work and, you know, have a beer when he's on his way home. You know, this country's being run by communists.

These goddam comes trying to take our beers away from us. And like your drinking and driving, driving and driving. Same, I think so I think .

is isn't IT where you can actually have drive through? Margaret stands phone, literally put nothing .

in amErica is beyond being drive. Thread, bank, cbs, fucking margaritas. Everything is drive through able.

By the way, I never answer rit rubin's question, why I never moved to the united states. And the two reasons, one of which is i'd probably make a million dollars, but then I start shopping at whole food and i'd be back to where I started a right OK. So the one thing I can't get more .

in individual malual sian trap that you've got yourself.

We have this l guy who came over and he was L A creative guy, wonderful guy, and he was enraptures about waitrose. Now, this won't be funny to american audience. Apologies, OK said.

The food is such good quality and such reasonable Price. Thank you. Something really. He grow up on whole foods or bristol farms or and it's completely bipolar.

American grocery retail, you know, german grocery retail is all about Price, really? yes. Okay, american gross detail, british grocery detail is really all about brand actually interesting. And then you have american gracy y detail, which is just like you have a choice between two absurd extremes. You're like having first class and standing room.

Yeah of weird. I think what happens with british supermarkets that they are woven into the class structure as well. Yeah, right? You know.

little system is not bad. You know, let me explain this. Okay, one thing which I think is problematic about the british class system, but is also quite nice, okay, is you do reach escape velocity relatives soon, okay, if you prove yourself reasonable, successful, materially.

Okay, so lucky this is a total steal type OK. But if you're a bread, you you going to do this right? OK.

You're going to come back to the britain with some money, which I hope you made in the holidays. Okay, right? slowly. And you're going to the old rectory and mission hampton, the flash in london. You'll have a ranger over a lAmberto, a wife called Polly and two children in private school and .

membership to so home.

The basis that point you can stop, okay, because anything more than that is actually evidence that makes you suspicious. Yeah probably a drug dealer or you know if you've got a private jet or something like that, people go it's probably up to no good. yes. So it's probably bit shady, is not really respectable. And so there is that kind of weird thing probably, which is the the royal family sumptuary laws, which is because we had a real family who actually many ways their pleasures until recently we extort you walking around muddy.

Yeah, it's a there's a culture of sort of a elite modesty. Yes, some ways in the U. K, you know, look at the a landa, a defender. It's it's every single person .

I have a weird， they thought in the com market, which is once you produce the electric landrover, a defender, there can be no more prestigious vehicle than that, in a weird way, wine, because it's how to explain the land of offenders. unbelievable. beautiful. By the way, the latest iteration of IT is fantastic if you made that electric.

And therefore, you know, you got a big, tough, versatile vehicle, big, heavy thing with a huge battery EQ arrange, the performance is gonna fine, right? Because it's electric, okay? And generally, IT does not matter what the electric cars, the performance is gonna great OK.

Why would if you have the money? Why would you have any other vehicle? okay? And the only other vehicle I can imagine, by the way, is with a proportional.

So I mean, as a Georgeous, I believe that there should be a single land value attacks. And I believe that an awful lot of technology exists so that people can escape from the rent seeking depredations of landlords and landowners. And that's one of the grade vantages places like texas.

Okay, you've got IT a superabundance because Austin like say vegas or like say pine's. okay. They were basically built after the car was invented. Okay, so living eight miles on the center of photo .

x doesn't t because .

you can just drive definition. You have go there feeling scot, still a phase of.

i'm going to Scott stale in a couple of .

week's time for the first, and still the hotel valley home. Okay, it's kind of hotel where the rat pack would have hung out. It's really, really cool. Okay, but I absolutely love the place now, very mond.

Okay, as a brit, okay, the two most pointed cities in the united states to visit a new york concert ces code, because they're a crap attempt to recreate european the city. Where's britz love places like Austin or austen or L A or chicago, because they're really different. They allow you to have a completely different life to the life you'd have in london.

And i'm going to make an accusation, okay, deep down, everybody wants to live in a suburbia, okay, but in britain, living in suburbia isn't cool. But if you live in L. A, you can go by effectively a suburban house, you know, up in the kind of, you know, just off.

What about that place called, uh, wonderland? You know, the valley thing that goes up towards some the moon drive? Yeah, you can basically live in glorious suburban house because it's L A.

It's totally cool. Okay, so that's one of those little games you see. If you move to bicky, your friends would stop this owning you, right?

If you move to L A. And buy a nice suburban house. Totally different.

yeah. So I was thinking about, uh, the rebrand of speaking about that sort of west coast phenomenon, this rebrand of twitter to x. What's your assessment of? It's a very weird .

thing to do because I would wait until he creates the everything APP before you rebranded. Yes, that's what seems straight to me.

Bundle neural. Lp, yeah.

Bundle payment vehicles. I mean, if if you t i'll forgive him everything if he builds in a content payment mechanism to twitter.

Howard.

you mean a there is a fundamental there are lots of holes in the ecosystem, the digital ecosystem, which haven't been plugged because their natural monopoly. And therefore, it's very difficult for them to reach critical mass as network goods unless they have monopoly status. Now looking at the rail mail, which is the first real network, good, the pty post test, not the royal OK. The penny post was an extraordinary thing because they're been one penny postal services in london for about hundred and fifty years. And this guy, roland hill, with the mathematical help of child's burbage, the kind of inventor of the computer, and one of the ten greatest mathematicians of his, I managed to do the maths to say, actually, you can sale this up to a national, and subsequently in imperial levels, as an imperial penny post in one thousand ten, whatever know.

So when ROM IT didn't into .

australia and in new zealand, you have to pay extra for them.

but india.

but included india. So when remanufactured rote, A G. H. Hardy and cambridge, he paid a penny for the light OK.

Now the mathematics there is to say that in a network of of the postal kind of network, the gate, the efficiencies in trunk routes, in other words, the cost per mile, when you're transporting fifty thousand letters at a time, the cost per mile is so low that all the costs basically are in collection, sorting and then last mile delivery. So as a consequence, the distance is actually more less irrelevant to the cost of carriage. And therefore we can never flat rate for postage. And IT required babbage to do the paths to prove IT work. Even then, IT lost money for the first few years because people have writing to find anything is be like .

if you earn .

the world's first fax machine, it's not really very useful. okay? And I think there lots of things, and I think two of them are a locker system for e commerce delivery. And what the government should do is basically licensing some enology for ten years.

So okay, if you offer an open access locker system, we'll give you ten and fifteen years of sham patterns, an rent from your your monopoly, okay? And the ballet has to be open access so that local shops, I can ring up a local shop in seven ox. Okay, and say, can you drop up a copy of this book in my locker when this locker, sometime this evening after you shut? right? Not not just the commerce, but actually all forms of local commerce and indeed peer to peer sending.

I want to send something to my dad. If there's a locker in his village, she's ninety three. I can basically pop IT in my lucky in the body, send his because then you remove the last mile. Cost to delivery, which is causing environmental cost, is causing transportation congestion.

And it's also it's not ultimately scalable because as I spoke someone of png about the delivery, the subscription model for things like raises, they on geeta, right? They said the problem with this model as IT works at a limited extent, but if we bought everything that way, our home, our homes, would turn into a delivery hub. Your house becomes the logistics harbin.

Every time you open the window, it's B B, B, B. okay. This just doesn't make us ulsa .

e to with twitter.

right? okay. So there's a similar problem, which is with micropayments.

For now, I got a friend call dominant Young who's an a company called act act, which is also looking at this problem, which is most people don't want to subscribe to most content. okay? Pay to subscribe.

okay? Now there isn't a single case. There maybe one case in like finland, okay, but that's yet there is. There's barely a single case in the world of a tabloid newspaper making a success of the subway pan model.

What twitter could do is launch a micro payment system where I keep like twenty quit of my twitter baLance. And every time I want to read article in what I do, subscribe to the new york times. But I don't surprise to the wall street journal, and I bugged and provide to the F T.

right? Because the ft. There are a lots of articles in the F, T. I'd pay a pounds to read, but i'm not paying thirty five a months. 我 and most people claim the F T， I guess, or this is a tax adaptable, okay, but also the F T, that there's a psychological thing going on here which is the there are certain things in the F T which I would love to read. There's some fantastic journalists there but sky go danish, some here, other brilliant guy okay.

Um but equally if I pay 4 equate a month of the whole of the F T or whatever IT costs one hundred quick year， right? Okay, well, I feel that you know seventy percent natives of that money is going to produce articles on the prospects for central banking reform in equator which no interest to me at all you know i'm not like that something to F T. readers.

But but none's, okay. I don't want to pay for the stuff I don't want. And it's a psychologically, even if the net value to me of each of those articles added together might add up to twenty pounds, i'm not paying for the whole thing because I feel i'm paying for a lot of value that the other people are getting.

but i'm not. So if you centralized the payment stability through twitter, you could .

distribute witter baLance at twenty three or twenty U. S. dollars. And I go and that ft article looks a bit interesting. I'll pay fifty cents to read that yeah now you can really monitor ze high quality and the same goes for video content by the same same could go for musical content. Okay, all those spotify made that work very well. But I think for high quality journalism in particular, but equally tabloid journals, m the people who buy the sun by IT in the way, you buy chocolate or crisp or a packet .

of cigarettes to buy .

next and you feel like a bit of treat, or buy a copy of the super star away sun, and it's XP, and then you take you with you. Those same people do not want to, just just those people who will only have players, you go mobile phones, even if they would be Better off on a contract. Now, okay.

And I won't I won't buy a train season ticket because my argument is there are two days of the week where I don't take the standard journey. Now I might actually save money overall on the three journeys. I do take IT pieces me off that i'm getting proportionately worse value than the people who traveled in five days a week, but i'm still paying the same. So that feeling of pissed office prevents me from subscribe to a season ticket and IT prevents me from subscribe to a lot of publications where I would give them ten quite a month if I was pay as you go.

So would you, if you had been even also.

also, by the way, if if I subscribed to every publication that you know, I think I subscribed to the atlantic, I think I subscribed the new yorker. But let's add, okay, wired, new york magazine. Let's add, apps, the new states, okay, I do some free to spect right for the spectator. So that's obviously I described to the time in the telegraph. I think, okay.

And then I would probably accumulating what at least of a granda a well.

well, this is the point that I I basically reached peak subscription OK b scription.

So so in other words.

there is a limit to the number of direct debits people are prepared to have. And therefore, you cannot grow the market for paid high quality content or paid entertainment content. You what an .

interesting business that i'd found out about recently. I think it's called rocket reach. And this company they go through maybe linked into a banker or something.

I don't really know how that works, but they go through they look at all of the debits that you're you that you've got the kind of lapse pointless of fucking something like that. They get rid of them yeah. So if you've been elon with you.

and also I would also add legislation here, which is IT is too difficult to cancel a require ing credit card payment. I was paying for club penguin for my kids, you know, when I was picking them up pissed from all one, you know, a one clock in the morning. Okay, I was still paying for club bloody penguin.

Now, I mean, you know, I probably had a little sneaky visit to the, I didn't right, but I did not go on club. The only time I went on club in with an adult is my children when they were Younger. Would make me play the games to earn points, to decorate their egal. fantastic. If sce to me to get me to play that dad.

go to work, please. virtually.

Yeah, yeah. The else I don't want to end up. And the none is wing a wakefield prism. Okay, I was going on for any other right. You look, let's get back to .

first get back to act. If you've been elon, would you have waited until you were able to bundle everything underneath.

right? Yeah because there's too much of equity and i'm nobody everybody first do this twitter bracket. Yeah there's a hello blot of equity and that IT made perfect sensors and name. You had a tweet and it's a very, very bizarre decision of islam.

I mean, you know, undoubted I mean the most bizarre feature of elon, okay, if I may say so, which is if you take a comedic viewpoint, when one of the great things you do, you take this sort of Darwin mentality, where you look at little things, and sudden you discover these absurdities everywhere. And elon's greatest absurdity, okay, is he's in favor of drivels cars. But man, space travel.

Now, I don't want to be rude, okay? What he means by man, space travels. People who have no obvious erano tic ability should be able to project themselves as humans into space, but which obviously benefit from being driven by a human, have to drive around autonomy. I don't know, we do, but is not the wrong way around.

okay? Shouldn't cars be driven? People in spacecraft be autonomous?

I don't really, really, you know how much input to the humans in spacecraft having none.

My brother is this as a physicist, if you want to get the roof. And astrophysicists absolutely am driven to a point of apple plexi just mention space travel, okay, because they regard that as per per dollar spent. An extraordinary bad way of discovering things about the universe.

He was .

described by one colleague of my brothers as spending three hundred million dollars to find out how mice wank zero g. You know, the kind of experiments you have performed on man space travel, a kind of absurd compared to something like a space telescope or or something of that kind, whether if you look at what those probes do, that the non human.

a probe that's just joice.

absolutely joice. However, I do have a colleague in the advertising industry, travel bet, whose lifetime dream has been to go into space. I think he's done this with virgin.

I get IT. What is IT? No.

hundred and fifty grand. I think that was IT. Yeah and he and all credit him he's not some rich diller tempi guy who decided IT to be cool I mean probably quite rich but he he's been an absolute lifetime space obsessive yeah a literally since being a child so it's a it's perfect good use of I can see why he does that.

Each time that we speak, you have become an evAngelist for a new category of products. I think this is maybe your fifth or six time on the show. Each time that we ve spoken to feel like the first time was the japanese toilet. At the second time, air as the area.

I was the john the baptist of bloody air drive. I can tell that much, right? I've been seriously, I went to phillip, so at the time had a monopoly of our fries.

Now this isn't really interesting point for anybody who's got a business. The thing to look out of the business is not just the rate of growth. okay?

You can have extraordinary rates of growth, which consists of lots of people trying something in deciding its shed. I mean, if you compare that thing, what was that facebook thing threads right now? If you look at the actual data for the adoption of threads, that was absolutely, you know, exponential rates of instant adoption.

If you go there, it's basically you in something, waste, waste and OK. Now the reason for that is that may they be very, very easy to sign up. People have to look, didn't like IT, you can't actually leave threads because if you want to leave threads, you're going to delete your instagram account, which understandably people don't want to do.

So it's kind of fur line trap. okay? Now that looks impressive, means nothing. By contrast, there are things which grow very, very slowly. At first, it's a signa ve.

The data you need to look at to give yourself the assurance if that data is there is the repeat purchase rate or the subsequent conversion to eventual ism. But not many people had air frizz. Now I I had this even reason.

I went to phillips. They did listen and I said, look, set. Trust me, you're sitting on an f gold mine here. If you just promote your I think they were the only manufacturer of f ries at the time. Okay, if you promote your F, R and you ambush ze IT, you can create kind of move.

They're not promoting IT all not to talk.

didn't advertise at all. I know. No, I do not.

Is in, has .

become the .

the .

tesla.

So i've got a fifty X, L, have a double extra, and he goes to four fifty. So here's my heart. I'm sure you ve already look at me teaching the, teaching the masi how to use this on fucking after from frozen steak, salt the sheet out of IT twelve minutes I decide spot on a plate done perfect every I asked, I want, I need to eat more red me dion, my diet tion so I asked the only person I know who eats a very, very high volume, mea Peterson.

who only eats me. Ah, that's a bit weird that I mean, I have to say, okay, I I my huge Jordan piece is a bit the same as message to Frankie boil, which is in small doses. I quite like him, but I think he's overcommitted to a particular doctor and I think what what he says and there are very interesting insights to be driving from him.

But I wonder that there's a phrase that was used to be not found. This equally applies to be on the left, okay, which is your driven mad by the remorseless ness of your own logic. okay? And I don't think, I don't think anybody should see the world through exclusively a lens of black and White, left or right.

okay? I just don't think it's helpful conducive to problems solving. An example on the left, we James o. Brian of someone who is you. I call IT James o.

Brian jesuitism, which is that you you're so obsessed with the rightness of your cause that you effectively construct an argument from a fairly dubious assumption and arrived a place, and therefore you go Q, E, D. My position on this is incontestable. okay.

And what what's less visible about that is the starting point of the driving assumption. Actium of your argument isn't that great. Your argument seems wonderful.

Ly committed. It's a bit like dating sites. Okay, every time I make i've never been a then I don't I didn't what dating side I go on. In terms of you know fat welshman, there's probably a niche there, isn't there? I guess.

But in any case, by the way, you mentioned that a simec that you said is standing ly that in your entire town and the night club promoter. And as I assume because I can't tell us about a pretty good looking guy who was on love island, which is partly A W P P. Creation, so we can take a small amount of credit, by the way, for you're incredibly deserved elevation and fame, but you've only actually been spontaneous st approached by a woman .

three times, twice, yes, twice. That overcoming of approaching anxiety for women guys talk about how how IT is to go up to women. And that's true, that that is true. But for a girl to do IT to a guy, they need to swallow something else, which is that if they are rejected, they've had to overcome uh uh social convention that is very, very embarrassing, have done to be rejecting. It's the same reason is the reverse reason actually of why um women ashamed for um no women ashamed of not for not performing in bed in a different way to manner but men get shamed for not always being hot to truck when the wife is。 For some reason if you as a guy, the guy is always exposed .

to my cargo isn't that the men and women desire sex to the same extent the differences. If a woman once sex IT actually happens, I think that's A.

I don't disagree, go back to, let's to run out this eventual thing. So a japanese toilet, we had a the I I .

do take my Darwin ism very literally, which is don't have a sense of proportion, don't get worried about being distracted because, okay, imagine on the bio, the, you know, i'm the going spent ten years of his life fucking around with earth works. We've got to .

say mustang mackie, which may be a musta ki gt. ah. What was the other thing? There was something you've for your dad, a telephone with massive buttons.

that that was a very interesting thing, which was that the idea of designing for the disabled yeah is actually a good business policy, even because you will actually find yourself with the target audience far larger than the one you originally. And I got shopping, actually gluten free. Okay, the number of people who are actually gluten intolerant to the extent of having sea disease is pretty small.

But there are hell of a lot people who are trying to avoid gluten, who will also buy a gluten free product. And in the same way, what are the examples would give us? You know, disability legislation Mandates wheelchair ramps.

They're also handy if you've got wheel luggage and they Mandate door handles rather than door knobs because people who have bad arthritis can't use dorne. But actually, if you're Carrying two bugs of tea, you can open a door handle with your elbow, because when you're Carrying two bugs of tea, you actually lost the use of your hands. And, you know, putting the shampoo buffle that opens at the top and the condition of the opens at the bottom, you can argue that just for people with severe visual impairment. But actually, no, because i'm in the shower, i've got severe visual experiment. Yes, laser .

thing.

thing.

What if you be? What do you evAngelizing .

about at the moment? That's frame. Which electric cars interest me a lot? Because I been one of the things that interest me is that if you're work in the advertising industry IT practices, what is makes IT very, very interesting is that it's, as I said, is problem solving methodology is slightly odd.

It's not the standard scientific. We must have complete certainty. P value less than north and or five before we proceed.

It's closer to the detective work, which is you might act on a hunch because the hunch or the little bit of animals tal information doesn't give you a decisive answer. But IT tells you what to investigate more. okay? IT tells you where to direct your. Now, if I had time, I don't have much time.

I've got, there are two extraordinary stories here about how the capture of leave my belfield eventually dusty zero effectives happened because a former girlfriend of belfields roached to the police, I think, or content to them, and said, I had this boyfriend once, and there was a copy of a magazine, and all the blond women had had their faces to face with a boro. Okay, now there's no evidential value of that. You can't bang someone up for twenty years for.

To facing a copy of vogue. And they probably was though that not sure the belfield household got to stretched to arpa and Green or anything, you know. But what if a magazine IT was right and you can't arrests someone for that, but you should investigate?

Okay, similar thing happened with the york sha ripper, which is effectively, there was a very shrug cop. And I can't remember er's name york share cop relationship junior and the york sha police were obsessed with the idea that he had a new cars. lax. And you remember this, yes, because you have that for those fake tapes language. But the police wrongly believed that there was .

information. And they take the and technical. They narrated dance some eight.

Villa shelton's was an accident expert who placed him to within five streets. That was the unbelievable thing about the accident of the northeast. They have that degree of the, but he wasn't the actual perpetrator.

And one day this couple, they have to go to interview people who are suspects, largely because their car is regular, cited in the red light district to leads or bradford, okay. And all else, they have some other reason to raise suspicion, okay? And they routine how to go into view these couples.

And there's an awful thing to do because first all you're going to get the wife out of the room so you can ask the husband why he's always in the red light district. Okay, so you have to go home. My throat, like some paper makers of covert a love.

But they started this company. Cops just started with this kind of break the ice rif, which was right. Madam, now is your chance to put your husband away for good, to get rid of your husband for good.

And so they made lighter the fact they were making inquiries into the york's ripper. But by starting with a joke, they kind of detoxified the holly exchange. okay? They were saying, don't worry, you know, you didn't need to panic he wonderful little do you know, chance to get ready with kay. And every single person they played that joke on, about ten percent of them got angry and ninety percent of them laughed, as you might expect.

Okay, some people just don't have a sense of humor, which is still not slide word about comedy, which is you allow comedians to be policed by people with absolutely no sense of you will once server, which doesn't need to make sense, yes, but they just don't have they don't have sense for me when they interviewed some Cliff, that was the only occasion where they told that joke. And they didn't neither laugh or get angry. They just took IT as a debt, the kind of state for the fed.

Now, then they notice, is to, okay, he had a gap in his teeth. He was a Lorry driver, the pattern of wear on his foot wear because you're a long time and slowly driver match some footprints that mean found in the scene. And they immediately went up to the head of the inquiry, said, we should look at this guy and then the guy said, does he have a jordy accident know? Is a local man, right? Forget IT and they this guy really .

blocked them for being .

so um I I I I don't want anybody without a enjoy action and uh so now what's interesting about that, as I said, it's reverse reasoning. It's kind of okay. And also IT involves to some extent a degree of nose.

And I think there's something in this are not quite sure what, but let's explorer a bit fill. Now you might argue maybe that's how we should actually pursue some pharmacie researchers is going to go. He, lex and cambridge, which effective, is aiming to do pharmacy tics research backwards, which is find interesting compound and see what they treat, rather than define a narrow disease and find a way to treat IT.

Now it's what you might call post rationalize signs and rather than prerational alist science. Now a lot of advertising works through that way. That works backwards, which is you come up with some weird idea through some mental process of inspiration that you're not quite sure about, and then you reverse engineer the reasons what might work.

Now a lot of people see that is cheating, just as the german, the german and several, you know, we designed a drug to treat engine and IT makes peopl Epaces e ffect O K. This is clearly a failure. okay.

Well, actually, no, it's the right answer to a different question. And IT worries me that we discount, we discount IT so often when we come up with an interesting answer to a different question. Now the advertiser industry is probably relieved vely tolerant to that.

You know, I say, look, don't apologize for a post rationalization. If it's an answer is answer OK how you got there. This isn't like a high school math example.

You have to show you working out, okay? And sometimes the world, the place you get his, by the way, weird. I always say, look in psychological issues.

In physics, the opposite of a good idea is wrong. But in psychology, the opposite of a good idea might be another good idea. okay? It's a bit like the difference between, you know, if you like, policing conversation on the one hand and Andrew shouts on the other, okay, they're complete opposite.

But they may actually in weird way be, you know, solutions in some kind of strange well, and we know the psychology of humor kind of fascinating, because he is kind of harmless play. I mean, you know, all primates, all mamas, kind of engaging, kind of play fighting. And we do IT verbally as well as physically. I'm not going to start restart with you now that are completely wead, okay.

but we can engage in a bit of verbal or yes and you .

and it's kind of like that. The tone is there is also a form, the abuse forms in friendship and but british english is slightly more high context than american englishes in that not that americans don't do IT, but british english is very much, you say the opposite under statement, but in other words, tone of voice determines meaning, or context determines meaning more than IT does an american english. And that's not be speaking.

That's an american, by the way, that might be done in height. And so that kind of verbal play, which is you if we weren't friends, I wouldn't be able to be rude to you like this, which is kind of again, it's kind of reverse reasoning, but those kind of games exist all over the place, which means that actually the opposite of something can be just as valuable as the thing itself, if you like. And now I think it's important in problem solving because I think it's an additional string to your bow, just as I think the solving problems psychologically rather than technologically is is an extra string to your bow in terms of, you know, solving difficult problems, make the railway enjoyable, don't make the railway fast in centro, okay?

I think that's an extra that expands the solution of space and this business of allowing people to imagine and then worked backwards, which according to. Interestingly, the scientific method, of course, the method of scientific funding would be, unless you've identify an absolutely problem, you allowed to do anything. Okay, right?

You have this experiment now.

You'll get some funding because you have demonstrated the absolute clarity of your ahead and the single point of your destination. If you look at something like Andrew gunn, who came up with graphing, a festival he discovered graphing with equipment you could bought from staples on eight smith, okay, which is just taking taking bits of pencil graphite and industry, pulling them apart with a bit silly.

But he actually himself says, I don't like that kind of research. I like kind of what he called hit and run research, where you just find an interesting angle of inquiry and pisces around for a bit and see where that gets you, and then you discover the use subsequently. I think that's a good strategy.

I think that's a strategy.

More people just wonder. I just wondered about our world where you have to win an argument before you can act. In other words, you need approval from complicated bodies of people before you .

can do anything. You've got this thing about how all creatives have to justify their ideas to rationalists. Let's bring this one home we've got launched to get to with her and George every single time you come on.

I absolutely love you. Thank you for joining me. What can people back .

next couple months will catch up again. But can I also say, I mean, nothing gives me more pleasure than to see how this entire areas is just flourishing and absolutely brilliant. I think it's thank you.

It's there's a great quote from Jimmy car on your view way he says youtube became the biggest TV station in the world and nobody noticed. And I think, by the way, you know, we'd be wrong if we didn't kind of end with a bit of a pain. There's a wonderful life in the ft.

Saying that, you know youtube is the drill in the crown of the internet. One of the things I recommend to everybody, by the way, you said, what am I evAngelizing for? All tell you youtube premium.

okay. So describe to youtube premium. And second, to watch youtube on your T.

V. Yeah, I don't understand. Okay, my kids, right? They want to watch. They want fuck sake, right? OK.

Everybody in your whole childhood was, how big is your telling? Okay, this is, by the way, lovely joke about that, which is okay, which is wonderful thing, which is only a value to break. So I really apologize. So Kenneth Williams mum was obviously pretty several key neth Williams, because they were sitting back stage waiting for some filming to finish on a Carry on film.

And someone said to their neighbor, which is one of the other relatives of child's hore trails, you know what? Television, if you've got, i've got a fifteen inches console to which Kenneth Williams replied, Kenneth Williams mum replied, forty inches. That would be enough to console anyone. Okay, so clearly there was a kind of family tradition of absolute sound.

but we are competed .

for how big telly was. And then I have these kids who are staring at this sort of perceptive little little box. What shoot on your big? What youtube on your big Kelly.

It's broadcast quality nearly all of IT. It's 4。 There's two hundred and fifty thousand hours of content where I think the title starts with the words how to yeah okay if you want to repair.

Now what I think has happened is, first of all, we've had we ve had several youtube revolutions in that, well, several things. okay. There is a problem with certain technologies, which is when they are new, they're not quite good enough.

So they hit the hype cycle at the wrong point. Yeah, that was true of video conferencing. Okay, when I was a, when I was hyped, IT was a bit shit.

And by the time I stopped being shit, IT was too late to hype IT because you looked a bit like that guy in the fast show, when is electricity brilliant and primer problem OK, and I think that happened a bit with youtube. You know, I was a bit of a flake. Y IT was all filmed on crappy phone cameras. IT was all a bit picture late wbi and now actually IT is is is the only part of the internet which has no annoy if you have the youtube premium, IT has no annoying qualities to IT at all.

No, the algorithm is shit out if I keep on fallowing around the net, i'll consider that a when I love you a bit.

Thank you very much. Very tranta tic. Thank very much.