#760 - George TheTinMen - Why Does No One Care About Men’s Mental Health?
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Hello, everybody, welcome back to the show. My guys yesterday is George from the tin men is a content creator, a writer and a prom advocate. Man's mental health is in the toilet. Eighty percent of eighteen to twenty four year old suicides are men, and fifteen percent of men say that they have zero close friends to call on in an emergency.

So why does this seem like the world doesn't care that men are still the benefactors of a patriarch? They no longer feel apart of expect to learn why drakes dick pick league e was such an important cultural moment. Whether Billy elish is right that men don't receive criticism for their bodies.

The reaction online to a new study saying that men need two guys nights per week, what are we dating the same guy is whether men have reproductive rights and much more. George is phenomenal. He is one of my favorite ite instagram accounts.

He is one of my favorite t humans. He is a good friend, and I love his insights. He is ardently from the left.

He's ardently prom and and I think he's an important voice you should all going follow his instagram account and this episode has got so much to take away from. I really, really hope that you enjoy this one. Over the next few weeks, we have got some of the biggest guests that we've ever had on modern, western plus a world.

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What happened when Robin dunbar's new study came out about men leading two guy nights per week in order to stay healthy?

I saw IT mentioned a bunch times on the very social media channel I was space saying that many two got last week. So for their for their health and their mental health, obviously smell suicide is a massive issue, specially western society. And one of the most sought key factors, male suicide is mell loneliness, smell isolation.

So he he was looking into that and he found that two nights a week for guys is, uh, sort of the ample amount. And then a social media does is sort of kicks off. Everyone goes crazy in.

Everyone is winning, making them about themselves. And everyone found that idea of two guy nights a week for men just too intolerable. And then you want to know how many, how many not a women has got to be, seven at least. And all I want is time alone. And maybe it's great if they go see, have to spend time of them. And honestly, the comments on each of his posts are all the same, just a bunch of whining noise making about themselves and just totally ignoring the fact that a male suicide as a mass ve issue, male lonely, is a key part of that and them i'm sure you've seen the comments for yourself.

Chris. Yeah, some of my favorites. And this is why women don't want to have their babies.

This article was written by a manchild. Everyone cares to men enough as IT is. We're tired of hearing you winning. The world is your playground and you still cry all the time. This is, this is like really .

great to sort of self select because those women are all taking themselves out of men's lives, and we all appreciate that too. Like we I do like those. They all sound really horrible people and people would have sort of they painted in the picture of their own crap though are you don't spend time of your children or your wives? And nonce said anything, what children not talking about fathers, talking about men as a general group.

And the point was lost completely of malisse, lation. Linus, massive issue right now. And there's nothing wrong with one to spend bit a time of your mates.

Doesn't helium have to be at a pub? Could be playing computer games IT could be like this. It's just the dive. Men talking and sharing time together is a really, really important issue. And unfortunately, just a mere mention of that is too much for some people to handle.

Can you steal on the other side? What's the best interpretation of why people had a problem with men getting two nights a week to themselves?

I, I, i've learned about me, called as a saturday days after the boys, which became like a toxic me. The idea was a saturday with first with the boys night. And I I know i've dated quite a few women that had really fair complaints about men.

They dated where they pay x box everything or night, or they do go to see the boys everything, everything. I can get drunk and hangover next day and like like all things, if you you peel back all the outrage in hysteria. Ia, there is actually a fair point.

And I do feel like there are some valid criticisms of men spending too much time together. I don't bind to the whole toxic male or any spaces. I think men only spaces are really important part of men on sonic driver, male bonding, mall socialization, feel the exact same way about the spaces.

I feel like there's a lot of women up there who have very have had a very negative set experiences of dating men who are not given the time they did want or deserve. So I say I think it's probably a fair reason behind IT. I'd swish ed would turn IT down little bit.

So why is IT? What do you think triggered red? That issue is IT just more sort of low resolution thinking about male privilege. Oh, well, theyve already got IT easy in the office and then you're not gone to contribute to the housework and they going to go out with their friends is IT a threat somehow that spending time with the boys is a threat to the relationship?

I just think IT IT seems to stem from a very fundamental misunderstanding of male loneliness and a set of experiences that I don't think women can quite understand what is like to be a lonely man. And the unique sense of isolation many men feel and how that links to be suicide.

I think, I just don't think they can quite understand the same experience and unusable, we would struggle to comprehend of the day of men having issues inflicted upon them. People are able to talk about male suffering, but only in the context of its. The man doing IT to himself is his toxic masculinity, or is the bloody patriarch back firing.

People struggle or is totally disinterested in. They are there that someone is having to men that they do not have control over. They do not have agents will told me over they victims in their own right.

And malisse, lation is not a self affected problem. Part of IT sure is, but is a much wider issue. And one of these issues, as people not want to talk about me now guys nights and thinking it's inherently a bad thing, which IT isn't.

And I mean, I I ve been I went to one house party once ago, one ages ago, you, I went to house party and no woman turned up. No, not single woman turned. One woman turned up and then left.

And there was just the ultimate sausage fest and italia IT was the best house private. Was just like everyone everyone stopped trying like this night basic fuck women. I impress women in our for each and is the lads we are like our most tournaments we had like at massive giant banana hang from the seeing, even trying to kick. He was just like the most amazing, amazing household been to and IT was like, I was almost like as spiritual almost and I was like, I really believe in IT and it's I guess IT paints a wide the problem, the wider promise, a lack of male spaces and and how society uh is impact in damage as a result of that.

Like youth clubs for example, and the closing of you've clubs in london and how that impacts knife crime going up because closing these mail e spaces, like boy scouts for example, like the men, the boys and men go elsewhere and often they are taking to gangs and always got look at that in the context of like fireless ssz and the lack of male role models in schools and the lack of my role models in T, V. Overall, that which is losing these male spaces and these conversations for me yeah my my best of IT yet. strange.

I I wonder how much of IT is that women don't know what guys get up to when it's just them in their guy friends. I I wonder whether they think that this is finally the patriarchy getting the opportunity to plot the downfall, is that I wonder if he's thinking of me, me, yeah, all over. And IT always like a dude thinking that if he doesn't do this next dead lift, his whole families gna die. Or him and his friends like seeing who can do the loudest fart using a test about meta that someone brought in from .

work like yeah I mean, I I mean, I don't think women quant somewhat is to be with the boys.

It's interesting is that classic story you hear where are you know husband goes out, spends on the ladds comes home in the next days his wife or girlfriend is asking and all about in what's the so one hope to and how the children he know none of IT, but he is not asking any anything about your family or friends what you doing, how well we just talk about my random in sale, who's going to going to fight between king kong and godzilla? A, R, and that I feel like that's great. Like a chance, like unwind and not talk about really intense things will relax.

I think an interest, an interesting duality, right? Because on one side, uh, there is this push for men to open open and talk about their feelings more, for them to uh get in touch with their feelings, to be emotionally more mature, to be more well baLance members of society. But this requirement of men to be with other men, like if you want to say that brunch with the goal is um like part of A M SAndra conspiracy theory to keep men out from bottom.

Less proactive meetings or something that would be ridiculous because for a long time some male on these spaces were volt positions of power in which there were meetings going on where you know how the high powered lawyers and the people that were doing investments and so and so for but in january last year, the highest number of female CEO ever were recruiting and IT was like, over a third of cees were women. I don't know how many women want to be CEO. My point being that a lot of male spaces have been destroyed, and a lot of the upper asians that were gender spaces have also been cut down for precisely that reason.

But IT also caused all of the stuff at the bottom end of the funnel to get destroyed too. Like boyer's night, got that party, a post, got thousands and thousands of comments from people, mostly women, almost exclusive. En, who had problems with that? Yeah, I mean.

yes, I just want to get distracted by that. The one single post is sort of it's a much wider problem and IT doesn't go both ways. Although we are closing down these male spaces were not we're not doing the same to women spaces.

Women spaces are held up and protected and funded, set up, and moreover, every corner of society, and like, quite rightly so, that is like that. Even like boys carts does accept girls, but girl scots doesn't expect boys. That was one of the first conversations I had someone, and by conversation, I mean someone shouting my face and they were, he was A K A friend of mine who was a woman.

He was, I want to boys cuts I enjoyed in, that's great. I really think girl share opportunity to learning skills. I would boys got since amazing, like learning to time, not son have coats and stuff. And I like, what can boys go to? Go scouts and then he was, I knew you're gonna say that finger in face shouting, I like that just like, well, okay.

And the answer is no.

And there are so many examples. Well.

what about international manne's day that didn't have good run either last year.

It's getting Better, getting Better and Better. So like every year, I mean, I do the same thing every every year I check out google and I really hope for like a bespoke google.

Google you know every year you have like industry women's day of course gets one is even international bubble head dog day and i'm not joking, there's that day for bubble head dogs and they've got a fucking google doodle and I my italian men do not matter as much as a plastic dog that sits on your dush to dashboard. And clearly they don't. But people talk about international men's day, and they they put IT within the context of IT.

Oh, that sounds like White people day, or state straight pride day or able body day. And I I always find there was such false equivalents to say being a man as the same as being White or the same being able bodied. I'm not being that gave way.

I don't think being woman the same as being black. I don't think being woman as the same as being disabled. I find there are so those concepts so offensive.

I am not as a White person. I'm happy to say like bingo ite in the west is more less excEllent, never in a possible way. But being a man comes with its a mixed bag of advantages disadventure ges.

So it's not the same being White and everyone sees out to to wave away national wednesday as unnecessary and nothing. It's really necessary because IT actually allows us to talk about some the issues that are quietly damaging men and boys from sort of birth, right, to sort of late life and death. And there needs to be a space for these discussions, even a space for discussion online, or actual physical space for me to talk or house boys.

or kick in a banana on the ceiling.

And I was first person to kick the an on, by the way. And I became, I was like a king.

I got Carried, I got Carried. God, I got Carried out .

of the house. amazing.

So I first learned about, are we dating the same guy on your instagram account? And then since then, i've seen IT trending more online. What is, are we dating the same guy for the people .

who want familiar with the um are we dating the same guy is a series of private facebook groups all over the world. So if you live in a major city in the west, especially america, canada, U K, australia, mostly all majesties have them. They have about ten thousand to over one hundred and fifty thousand members, and they're private.

You can't join unless you are women. And then basically they start of what intended they're about, helping women make good decisions while dating and sort of checking out for red flags of a sort of men. And then the sort of change IT became a bit more, a lot more toxic on a ferrous, a space where women worse, or sharing photos and names and workplaces of where these men works, and like basic and then humiliating them, like talking about their bodies and horrific ways.

And then I got worse, and he was that women talking about their husband's and their long term partners and how to all track them, as all one stories about how to unlock your husband's phone when he's a sleep using sort of facial recognition. Uh, one of them was about, i've bought my boyfriend these blue reflective glasses for light. I bought them so I could see what he's doing on his phone in the reflection of his glasses.

That one was trying to find out the identification number of a car her husband's in and another was how to plant apple tags on your husband, on his car. And just like what started off as what seemed like a well intended set, groups or women, safety became very much to opposite, and IT became like a threat. amen.

Safety, unlike its LED to suicide, is LED to among being killed by his partner. And it's like it's gone so of hand, as IT always does. And there so many men have message me be, i've been brought in these groups.

I can't get a first to taken down, have talked to facebook, didn't do anything. I've been nothing wrong like everything that's been said is not true. And yeah, are we dating the same guy? It's terrifying phenomenon.

So it's not just about women working out whether they are not the .

dating the same guy. Um no IT, that's how I started. But now this is everything there's like women offering, like loyalty tests instead flat. I'm onna talk to your boyfriend. I'm trying to get me to like, follow me an cup with .

me like a honey trap .

yeah go oney. And just like it's not what I was if eight more and ever was, but it's just gone so at hand and no private. I've got a ball in a few of them. I know .

the counter resist.

My my girlfriend is in in a few and it's just like I find out what's going on. And like some some things you see horrific, and if if that was the inverse of I keep group of hundreds of thousands of men sharing the photos and names like where they live of women, that will be that be outrageous. And this is outrageous, and it's just like basic a kangaroo core for bunch of resent for single women to win about men but I so I thought .

I thought this sounded like IT had transitioned into a lot of women who had partners but were just nervous about whether or not they were being faithful and truthful and honest.

It's a many favour, bird. I think it's a lot. It's just a big ship show and it's just yeah is all of those things plus many more and its absolutely enormous and I to see undertaking a lot of horrible things and it's just basically away bullying men and shaming men and humiliating them, just saying things about their body isn't look at this proof what do you think and and it's just the honestly similar of .

your readers is horrific. But those something similar like the pink pill on reddit, our slash, the pink pill and our flash female dating so yeah do you member that.

Yeah, yeah I mean, yes, that's the same. Is is to space. Another group of angry women running about men under hating men as a generalized group. Not not any specific man, just men as a concept and is is dehumanizing. They have their own set of languages and the call men like misters and this is just .

a very sorry.

对 吧？ I I don't know what the the concept is behind that, but i'm sure it's offensive and it's just like I guess these to me feel like the female equivalent of in sales, like angry, bitter, lonely women who need help, probably have a very difficult set experiences involving men. And they decided to take IT out on the online world through these groups and nervous. And there is a very interesting things, like interesting point about women spaces and men spaces in how how how do they become toxic and they're certainly do and we need to be careful around IT. Um I wonder .

if the dissent into toxic happens differently for women and IT does for en. I wonder if you you know William costellos doing a lot of work at the moment, tracking the a in celebration, what's going on, what the what the constituent members are, uh, over representations of autism, over representations of disability, over representations of a people with left leaning ideology, with people who are non White. So that's interesting.

But i'd love i'd love for that to be a study to look at what causes is A A, A discount woman. Because, you know, in some ways you need to do IT because you say this is not good for the people that are the members of IT all for the people that are the victims on the other side of IT. I wouldn't say there are any women that would be like, oh, I feel very infused to know that the insel movement is is, is steam or they've got, you know a violent fucking forum or something like that in the same way that men are not going to say the same thing about women.

But the other thing is, IT also kind of creates a list of risk factors that people who are currently feeling healthy about whatever IT is that they're doing in their life can say, oh, well, actually x percent of people that are remember of this group, which I don't want to fall into a they spend less than five hours with friends per week, or they um had an undiagnosed uh psychic c disorder. Or they had ah like something in the childhood that came up. So what you see is these different way markers that other people can use to avoid tumbling down the same rabbit hole.

Yeah, I mean, I I one of my fundamental concepts on the tinton is not to see people are so static end points that not none born bad people are solved the product of their life experiences.

And I like one way of saying is like there's knows that is Normal behavior does only a Normal response, and abNormal set experiences as well is anything can see, anything can be seen as Normal, if you can understand a wider context, the person making that that decision in this behaviour and that in sales, for example, like they are so widely misunderstood in the way he described, they are majority IT coin to Williams resets, which is amazing, like mostly left leaning, mostly in sales of color, very. And the only thing thing is about looking at in sales who are black, for example, said people. And Williams said, this is why, like people, a lot more compassionate, but a lot more winnings.

Talk about lonely, isolated, depressed, anxious black men. But when you talk about that as White men, that's when everyone starts throwing around in soil labels and starts it'll losing my mind. But you are right, is that we are all the product of experiences.

And the women in these groups, they didn't arrive there in a reason theyve on't. Maybe on their own journey. And they probably have a budget city guys. And I, Polly, had some horrific dates out when I was dating.

I always just ask women are dating about like, what's your worst state? Tell me about your nightmare and not some of the story I heard horrific and i'm happy say I didn't have many to share on my side. I've i've been very lucky. But you are right in the sense that we all formed from experiences we need to like, not see men, for example, as a stand point, and ask ourselves, what has he been through to become this way?

In the same way as we ask that women in the way described that in sales, for example, like exactly me to grow up on in selves, like people talking about being mental health advocates create, while the inside form is that the extreme form of that, that is the men's mental heath crisis, like on steroids. And if you are not willing to talk about them in a way that isn't so humanising and perhaps looks at what theyve been through, and then maybe in has a bit of compassion, then I don't know if you really are. I meant to help advocate at all, say, yeah, I know a lot to be said.

What was bad girls advice and jasaw? I I learned about both of those. I feel like I get a window into subcultures of the internet just through your instagram account.

Yeah, is terrifying. Pad go's advice was the same again, both of them are the same, in sense, that IT was a bunch of women bragging about physically abusing their sort of partners, the male partners speaking the open, light, basic, share stories. And like below that, all these comments about, yes, creating you get him great job and jezbro, in particular, who have now gone bankrupt, is great nesa few weeks ago.

If just close their doors, they no longer exist. But they put the article. And the thing that's interesting in about this article is that a the piece of research and familiar with by dani wittig a came out that found that half of domestic abuse is bilateral, meaning half the half of domaine abusive relationships, both partners doing IT, and in over over half, where is non recipe cool.

Women are seventy percent of non recipe clear abusive relationships. So this idea of male only abuse is that is the third least, the third most popular former abuse. That's a really interesting piece of research. But Joseph decided to do their own thing. And for them, IT became opportunity for their editor writers to basically, again, compared notes about boys have dated men, their points with a Better, like physically abusing men in their lives, like punching them, fashion glasses that hit in them, and is like, again, not not for shame, not feel like us sense of admission, but bragging about IT bagging, bagging, because there is a credible standard between men who have vient to women and women who have vient to men. That one is seen as a joke, the have one seen as a national epidemic.

But what is the justification? I still know. I don't see. I can't imagine a woman who would say, congratulations, you hit your boyfriend. Is was this like righteous retribution for the entire mail sex and it's misgivings against women. Is that what was happening?

I think it's just like a massive specialization. Can torsion of this of boss, bitch, queen, go get your bag, girl, your powerful woman, sort of archetype. And this is push to us like hundred and fifty percent, but actually somehow that praising violent women, and they they seem to think that to be a one woman is about being a complete decade.

And those who are not the same thing, and honestly do not know, I do I I see article. I'm horrified. I I can't even get begin to get my head around why a bunch woman would break about physically abusing men.

I don't think would see that article written in G Q or F H M about their male journeys been like, yeah, I went home and punched my wife right in a face and the articles still up like they've had so long to like, take IT down and they haven't still there. They don't they didn't seem to understand they were standard that they sort involved in. But I am really got good advance of you. But I do feel like some women think that to be violent or to be a dickered is somehow A A sign of strong man or a powerful and obviously isn't.

in fact, that a wild, that's wild. Talk to me about the social psychology of drake stick pic.

This is, this is, this is next, happened hours ago. But for what I understand is that track track stick has now been leaked online. Not seeing IT, not interested in seeing IT, uh, but IT has brought up an interesting double standard.

Where is a lot of women on twitter right now? So melting over these images over a well endowed drake? Let's put IT that way. And this is everywhere as he's being thrown around thing everyone is talking about IT that how great.

And i'm like, no respect for his privacy or his body and of IT IT is difficult not to compare to what's happening to tailor swift and how he had the AI generates image of her. Not really at all. I am seen ever and I said ever one's outrage over that and they're bringing in the changing laws to stop up from happening, which is fair enough, but takes actual dick has been late and is like quite explicit.

And I imagine the people that were kicking off, I would take a shift. Another one sharing, tweeting what our grade is. It's a developing story for sure, but a definitive ble standard.

But have we seem to respect women's privacy more than IT comes to these sort of things and mens and again, that's not say women having their nudes leaked slept women is not a massive issue, of course, but it's still interesting able standard about how when IT happens to man. It's sort of a fair game like it's open season. But yeah.

I wonder how many men come out instead of the IT. Seems like guys lose on both sides that women will come out in defensive women who've had their new leaked and men will probably feel at least a little bit redecked about publicly talking about them, maybe in what it'll get forward IT quite a lot. But publicly they are not going to talk about IT. And the reverse seems to be true if it's a guys I don't think I don't know like unless I was feeling particularly like parag oni that day, I don't know whether I would shout up as a Normal person who didn't have a platform and just be like this is ridiculous, like all of these people like that's just not the guy impulse to kind of step in in in that way. There's something kind of a bit icky about IT being A A guys nudity in any case that guys do sort of can't lean away from a little bit.

There is there is a weird, unexpected, sensitive respect that a lot of men have for their partners, especially around sex. And this is another diable standard i've know is a lot, and something I I person associate with is that I hear a lot of, I hear a lot about women who are sleeping of men, and they talk openly. And in detail about this is sexual experience about the guys, dick, about his body and there's just like no goal banter.

And then women tell me the slide is Normal. And then like you must talk about IT with guys and like we never talk about IT, like maybe will confirm the actors happened and that was IT. We don't go to detail. We don't talk about their bodies. We don't go to solve step by step guard of exactly what happened.

And like i've i've been on dates of women and like we're step together and then the next day, like one of our friends comes over night, pat me on the back like, good job you no my what and then she's spaces saying, like, good job for, you know, great sex and I was like, and that is crazy. You've had had that conversation and that no consideration of my privacy. So I think there was a very interesting, fast and loose style to discovery around women. Talking about men's bodies. In that context that surprisingly men don't seem to have is a weird sense of respect them in half for their partners bodies on sex.

And I think it's certainly the case in long term relationships. Yeah, I would be tempted to say that IT maybe switches at least a little bit in short term relationships, but a good chunk of that is because of the incentives because guys see a short term casual hookup as a bad of honor. Where's girls probably want to talk about a little bit less depending on the kind of girl that IT is, depending on her psychology.

But yeah, I mean, dude, if I was to say, I mean, I know that woods girls ask another girl, oh, what's George like in bed? Like, what's your boyfriend like in bed? I have no idea that seem even to me that seems a little bit too far.

But if I was to ask my like, married, engaged or long term bro friends do, does such instruction like to you give good head? What's that like? Yeah.

yeah.

I mean, that is crossing a huge line and they're never gonna you?

No, I know it's yeah, I don't. I think a lot of mental of these conversations. I don't think they're interested.

I think that's more what women talk about. But then again, i've never been this conversation ever, I don't know. But this is definitely an example of what what can become quite tox.

So you can see the remnants of like what could become female sk strategy. What could become are we dating the same guy? And I do think us women as the guardians, and of language that makes little sense. They are the innovators of language. They are, they are so much Better men, building relationships and coalitions, groups and networking. And here, like language is especially, and dynamic sensor that that that as its prose under as its cons and this whole light, gossiping, relation, aggression, style of discourse, says mostly women, is a very interesting thing that also not talking about, especially in bullying, like the bullying betwen girls is a simplon height, talks about a lot and very interesting. And we hope that never framed as toxic femininity, like gossip culture, whispering campaigns, council counsel, people who, and I think that's a very interesting insight to what can become for my quite toxic women only groups.

I had a conversation with free or india earlier this week, while i'm for the people who are watching on youtube, the people who are just listening. I mean, a slightly different location at the moment, which have been fighting to get the internet to work two hours and still in honda in rotan. And so third world country, but second world internet.

So we've been able to wait. I had a conversation with free while I was out here, and he was telling me that the dept. Nuances venting into sexual competitiveness, the use of exclusions and kind of song cancellation of friendships.

And Oliver for girls is fucking brutal, like it's so reverse and I don't anna do the reversal of the common trope which is a like women harmed men most affected which is often like the reverse is talked about but if you think about the tools that women wheeled emotionally, linguistically, uh that is a fight that many men ah an armed to be able to compete with. It's the same you know a woman's um emotional ability and that coalition relational aggressive thing. Is there specific strength when IT comes, especially within small groups in the same way as a month? This is physical power or a groups would be the physical threat that they're able to pistol. So if you have this sort of back and forth, if you have a group of women that are able to castigate or or direct their eye and the eye of salon toward men or or or or man, whatever, that man is hopelessly outgunned in that particular arena, because his ability to do the same is the same inversion as a woman's ability to fight back physically.

Yeah, so in everyone talks about how men have advantage, women sports in terms of trans women, trans women in women sports and the physical vantage males, however, women, and that's a very interesting conversation but no one never talks about how, like women, for example, uh, generation ahead of men in terms of innovating of language that is like the so far had a men in terms of the ability speaking, communicate, party ological, party specialized, that doesn't really matter, but only we talks about how does that give advantage in these spaces like how does that allow that keep them power, the power of a soft power, for example, the power, persuasion, influence.

I'm got the numbers exactly, but I know everyone talks about pardners ics in terms of hard power, president's congressman, politicians, C, E, O S, all men having hard power. But if you actually look at the Normal data day decisions, men and women have especially relationships like watching for T, V, watching T, V, what we eating for dinner. When we were going on holiday, there was a decisions pained by women.

And I like about of about fifteen biggest questions in the Normal person's life. About thirteen of them are made by women, the family, about 呢。 And they do have more snow power, but no one ever seems.

We want to talk about that. And why not? Miss, you should show a woman's superiority of a men in their own domain. And you're right.

Men in many ways have domo dominant in the physical realm because of our great physical strengths that women have, have their dominance in this old linguistic and relational realm. And women, women are hurt by that. I can said of buying like girl is budding girls in america.

Massive problem especially we need bringing things like social media, where girls can only get over girls twenty four hours a day with anonymity. And it's gleeful to a massive peak, a massive rise in suicide, Young girls. So this unspoken about form of aggression, relation, agression, which has been seen in girls as Young as too, is not being discussed. And it's hurting women most of all.

well, in inability to see women as anything other than pure and perfect and good and gracious. And Danielle c is IT IT. IT denies other women the ability to accuse the female perpetrators of of meanness against them. You know it's the same with i've said this million times, but so many of the movies at the moment have perfect female protagonist, have to overcome anything. They never get anything wrong.

The only chinese that they ever faces that the world doesn't believe in them or that there's some man that holds a position of power who's trying to get in the way and fucking going back and regeneration or resembling all of your favorite movies so that it's got some like brave new woman female lead. I mean, it's not working at the box office, but I don't think that it's an empowering message to send to women either. I think it's patronizing and I think that IT makes them fragile and IT makes them uh nacion stic and if IT doesn't make them narcissist, IT makes their friends more likely to be noisy even if you're the sort of girl who is being able to like I was raised well and I understand that I need to work hard.

I shouldn't expect the world to give me anything. So get up. What's the message that being sent to other girls who don't have that same robust backgrounds that they're coming out of, who are the people that you're gonna have to try and be fucking friends with, they're not going to be good. They're not going .

to be baLanced. no. Well, yeah, there's like a pleasure of really dull two dimensional female superheroes, for example, unlike you, right in the stance that the reason what makes the male super was great is not their strength.

Further witnesses, so it's like you have thought who becomes alcoholic? Gainst wait, you have iron man who saw conca living under the shadow of his dad. You have the hawk whose is so fing very complex mental heal problems.

And that's what makes them human relations able, otherwise that is people flying rounding cape, that we don't know really who they are. But with the women within this new generation of superhero, they don't have any of those witnesses. Let us ten or ten insuring for everything possible way.

There are any short wings is no vulnerability there. And I feel like the writers afraid to make them vulnerable because he would just lead to outrage. And again, you are crying in a very narrow two dimensional set of characters is bit like captain marvel.

Remember watching a film, and he was like, building up to the final fight scene between her indued law. And he is just like, come on this light, come on, prove yourself to prove yourself. And she's like, I need to prove ourself to anyone and then he walks off.

That was, that was the final fight. That was like, i've been SAT here, right for that. And SHE what? And I like, how boring. How could he? And I just think that that explains party, in my opinion, why marvel is falling apart. Because this stucky ss or political dogman, whether they want actually write human beings as characters, that is, want to, right, is a cartoon h infantile star of women.

I think there's definitely going to be a gap in the market, both for media and entertainment and messaging and community and all of that stuff, but also for women who are able to be more forthcoming than that and more resilient than that because you have to think if almost everybody is being fed one type of message, if you are able to move back against that, that puts you into a very verified fucking cold, hot, have a very small number of women, it's like luck if you are able to overcome difficult things.

And this is, you know what we want. We want robust, resilient people in the world. That sounds great. We do not want people that see victimhood, whether there is on and have this narcissist entitlement about the things that they think that they deserve, that is not the world that anybody wants to live in, even the people who are a part of IT. The only reason that the part of IT is that the the only reason that complicit is because of their benefactions. If they weren't benefactors.

they wouldn't be complicated. Yeah, this is not but it's not just culture like that. It's in our legal system, is in our political system where we is constantly see women as victims only they are not they they can't be violent, they can't be toxic, they can't dangerous, they can do anything wrong.

We can't be criminals. And I feel like that's a massive service to the autonomy of women. That's what autonomy is. Autonomy to do good or bad is their choice as what is this, what tony y is? And it's amazing how people support with autonomy, but never the autonomy to do things that they don't like. Like women to be violent in a relationship like, and when I say they are are raised of the night, the legal critical system, I do mean quite literally, like in the U. K, women can't even commit rape .

is no possible. I saw you do a caracal about this. What's the word on sexual assault for women?

So well, controversial. But in the sexual sense event, um IT basic defines what rape, rapes and and rapiers basically the penetration of openness. And if you don't have openness, you can't commit rape doesn't matter what you do IT isn't like use drugs or a salt man is sleeping or use a weapon is not rape.

And IT can never be rape. So whenever people presently standing, ninety nine percent of rapes on men, what they don't tell you is that women can't perpetrate rape at all. And nothing woman does what ever constitute as rape.

So that that one percent is interesting. That one thing is women. But that's only a good joint venture.

That's when a woman helps a man raping of a man, and that's when a woman can legally be held responsible for rape. But all my in U. K. Is not possible. And also are academic definitions of rapper based on that, which leads to very misleading statistics of on sexual violence.

And in amErica is interesting, as they changed IT, they had the same laws, and the city to sea about ten years ago changed IT, where trendy, neutral, because they found out forty percent of of rapes were not being captured in F. I. statistics. And there was those, the rapes of women on to man.

And how does that for the people that would say that there's no such thing? Is that what you doing? Putting her finger inside of him? what? what? What does that look like? What is, is.

is classified as being forced to penetrate. So IT has to be caught something, and it's called forced to penetrate. And it's it's captured.

Data is always at the bottom, if captured at all. Uh, IT very complicated. Everyone forced back to have quite unquoted view of sexy violence and rate where IT has to use physical force.

That, of course, has happened. I know friends, i've been right by women in sleep was a drunk. Women would more often use weapons, and there's also coercion. So going back to the whole women having the power of language, and they're using that physical, that psychological, emotional pressure, making threats.

Heard one story about woman at basic told her boyfriend if he, if he didn't have sex with her, she's going to call nine, nine, nine and then accused him of rape and you put nine nine on the phone and the third nine knows about the press call and the basic forced have sex fer so coercion so rape in the south the horrific detail of its full picture is not it's not just about physical power. It's about much more than that and the the advantage that men have physically uh, not enough to stop from happening and it's a massive issue and not talks about IT. Thankfully the americans have LED the way in changing the laws to make IT gender nature and never revealed as massive coho of men not being great by women.

And somewhat we can do something about but that isn't happened. U K. A lot of titians have tried to change the at all, but it's still yet happen.

What is the baLance if you change the definition and if you begin to include in a different way, we are definition. How how does that adjust the numbers? Because, you know, we've heard for a very long time and even me like all i've ever heard is that guys sexually assault girls like that that um so what how a galley arian is the world of sexual assault .

a lot more than people are willing to admit. So is interesting. As they changed IT, they were basic capture data.

And like the number, the number male rate victims is very low. Was that lesson percent eight percent? And then next year he was like thirty six percent, thirty seven percent.

And in a few researchers, lowest temple, for example, accident researcher SHE was why as IT silly on from seven percent to thirty six, thirty seven percent and SHE looked into when he realised its because the definition of rape had been changed and they introduce the men or rape by women. So like I said, forty percent of rapes were not being captured by FBI statistics because they were using gender, a definition of rape. And here we don't know.

In the U. K. We just don't know, but we do not know how many men.

and especially if you're talking about a rape crisis centers or justice for victims and things like that. And i've seen those grabs where IT says this is how many sexual assaults OCR. And of those, this is how many are reported.

And of those, this is how many. And of those, this is how many are prosecuted. One of those, this is how many are convicted.

And it's basically that I don't get IT wrong IT might as well be the male to female rape is legal with how rare the offence to conviction ratio is. Now there's a whole bunch of ways that you can have false allegations and all the rest of the things. But this is Jimmy car's point. Jimmy car taught me this and who's like, it's fucking atrocious. But if you are, again the same thing, if feminists are for equality, they should be companion, campaigning as much for the things that boys and man don't have as they do for the things that girls and women don't have.

And the same thing true here, like if you're saying that you know one third of victims, a guys in one former another, and we already know about the male proclivity to not ask for help, to not admit medical problems, to not admit if they've been domestically abused by the significant other because IT seems even more on top of all of the other things in the trauma and everything else is and that they're gone to be scared. They're gonna be seen as weak or uh uh a poc, you know there's all of the problems that you have for women get pivoted in different ways for men too but you know there's not I mean, dude, you're you're big gun trying to be early on these trends and advocating for the problems of men. Boys, if you want this as a men, can be sexually assaulted to buy women.

And yes, it's a big problem. You are going to be waiting. I mean, that is a, that is a cruise ship sized culture because they still, still this sort of pervasive idea that we haven't had the reckoning around male to female sexual assault fully yet.

So going like, oh, I I have another. What about this idea that is gonna take IT can take a very long time. I M you can't deny .

the fact that violence against women, sexual violence inst women, is a horrific epidemic problem. I have people very close to me that have just have experiences, all these things, and that is brutal. And I really, really do think I understand that problem.

And I am no way trying to diminish IT. I'm always on an outside conversation, always on a broader perspectives and say yes and not not at all like it's one part of a big problem. And again, like if refuse to talk about violent women does hurt women too the most violent relationships and lesbian relationships, the least violent gay relationships. That makes no sense in terms about the fewer the men the least violent relationship becomes. And if you don't talk about women, then only gonna hear there's been women too.

Is that actually true? Because i've seen, i've seen A A rebuttal to the the most violent relationships to the ones that don't have any men in its lesbia's that commit the most. And then I saw a rebuttal that was like, this is middle thinking.

The data doesn't back this up at all. So I stopped citing that. I stopped talking about that on the show.

Maybe not that it's common. I wasn't like exciting at all the time, but I I stop believing IT about six months ago. What what's the truth about .

domestic violence is a topic between by sexual en, lesbian en dead at top two IT goes between the two and it's IT is is this fair, fair criticism? We could say that women are more likely report abuse than men are surface, two women more likely to report than two men because data .

based reporting.

right? Yeah, these these fees are really fair criticisms to make about point. But my, my, my point is that our view of domestic violence is wrong in three ways.

And that is, first for bilateral abuse needs. We talked about, like I said, half of omelet c abuses, billing atrial, both partner are doing IT. The second is there's a multiplicity of causes, domestic violence, not just mine power control, that's one one cause.

And that is also reflected by women to um and the third is not agenda issue, like many women both do IT we can we can nip, pick over, lesson women, invest gen and i'm sure we will never come to any sort conclusion. But the point is is not ended and a women can be violent just as the violence as men. And another thing I keep seeing, this is so, said IT khan did in london, who am losing faith, and I did actually file a complaint.

He was talking about violence and swim. And he said, although men can experience violence, this is mostly from other men. And I had, I had the data, and one percent of domestic violence, st.

Man is about of the men was he was too domestic fact, because IT sounds domestic from that quote, like he was just talking about violence generally. And I would guess that if you take a massive .

violence in to rock, no, yeah but still but as I still even though you're right in terms of violence more broadly, like terms of street violence, stranger stranger violence while you call IT, that is men doing to the men and am I so what like? That is the exact signed, that's exact same bigelow rhetta c that diminish black on black crime fages. Because it's back, who don't do the back.

People therefore doesn't make. And almost okay. Well, then let's to apply that to other crimes like, F, T, M, which you, 嘿， that's mostly done by older women.

So what is IT by the women are we're going to say that too. And this is like if you are more interested in pointing out the genitals of the assailant. Then I would say you don't really give a IT about violence, consume all men.

You're just interest in the agenda or and just because of violence by men doesn't mean that hurts any less or matters any less and doesn't mean we cannot help that man. And you're right. But in terms what are talking about are talking specifically about domestic ones, and everyone seems to think it's mending to the men, which just happen, but it's a very.

very small part of the pie. okay. So what's this what else is missing up from the relational aggression standpoint? What's missing around the discussion to do with domestic violence?

I think male suicides as a result, suicides in general as a result, domestic ance needs to be talked about big time. Like that is like the the constant bombardment pressure of psychology. Abuse by both men, women is horrific and not discussed again.

Everyone talks about domestic homicide, which is a partner killing their partner, and is mostly talked about your point. Premade exclusively talked about as as mending to women. And IT is mostly mending women about empty.

Seven percent of domestic commercials are men killing women. That didn't mean we can talk about the final quarter, but IT is most women. But no one talks about suicides that caused by domestic violence, which are overwhelmingly mail.

And if you actually bring in suicides as a result of abuse, there are more male deaths as a result of domestic vials in female. And that again, a massive, massive half the pitcher that's just ignored. It's it's unpopular. And again.

so what is that? A guy is in a relationship with a woman, and the pressure of that interpersonal sort of toxicity stuff a causes him to take his online.

yeah, more so abused by proxy, using children, taking children away, using the court system, destroy man's life, that there were so many amazing, incredibly smart things that women are. Don't men and men do women? But like parental alienation, for example, is when one parent turns the child against the other parent, so you basic telling your child that your dad dead by or your mums piece of year, and over time you based turn a child against the parent.

So he drops the child off and he couldn't K A child a week later and he hates you and he didn't know why and it's because the other partner has been turning against you. That's parental alienation. No talks about that um and that is abuse and that that can does they the suicide des and we need to talk about domestic violin in this detail, need a much higher resolution discussion around domestic violence. That isn't just this trope of male violence because that is just a small, small wedge of the problem.

I suppose the the issue you have around this conversation is the impact of male domestic violence are very plain in present, right? Guys are able to enact more damage that's stronger. Therefore, IT looks significantly more bad.

On a evidence photograph, real, the gallery of problems, you know, the list of things that somebody who's been admitted to hospital for. Did I watched them? I watched this documentary about, I think he was called the machine or or the jugan ot or something.

He was A U. F, C. He was briefly in the U. F, C. And then got let out, got released and was A M, M, A guy.

He was in a relationship with this adult actress, and they've been broken up quite a while. He came around and found her in bed. This is like a god.

While after they split up, he came around and found her in bed with another man. And this studes, you know, is a trained. He's beyond hard and psychopathic and and massive tic and noisy stic. He was trained and he you know got on top of this guy and like just fucking destroyed him.

Meanwhile, the girl was trying to look I think he tried to call nine nine, nine and he tried to do something like that ah and he made the man promise that he was never gona touch or never gonna around the woman again. And the guy obvious ly just said, like whatever, like anything yeah got got dressed in left because he presumed that his eye had been directed just at the guy. And then this u fc fighter IT was all over the news a few years ago.

This u fc fighter, M, M, A guy just like brutalised this go and IT was awfully, is really difficult to watch. And her mother gives this testimony the only way, the only reason, that he managed to a sky, think he's got a knife, he got a knife and started at hurting with the knife and stuff. And SHE ran away, but like bloody feet, sprinting down the street, like something out of a horror movie.

And the neighbor that found her and called the police did whatever. And the most chilling thing, there's a really interesting breakdown of IT on some like criminal psychology europe channel, people can go watch. And the most interesting thing is when the mother gives her testimony about what she'd seen about, you know, character witness and all the rest of IT for both the daughter and the the x partner and this look that he gives the guy from the stand is terrifying.

So just the degree, you know, mother's love, mother to daughter is the tightest genetic bond that you going to have of any yeah, two people accept twins. Ana, yeah, do it's it's ruthless. But yeah, you know, you have that, but it's at the photos of our faces just balloon up.

And this cuts everywhere and all the rest of IT. But the guide that takes us on life because the female partner has detached him from his friends, or has been using his kids as a cujo, or has been delegating the relationship between his children in him, or whatever, whatever. And you know, I understand that this is probably really uncomfortable for both guys and goes to hear like know, seeing the sour side of what your sex can do, seeing your generates its worst is not very pretty. But if you deny the fact that those things exist, you're not it's not helping anybody.

You're not breaking the cycle of violence like that's what's important. It's not about point fingers about breaking the cycle of violence because violence is is special and generational and it's passed down through families and childhood as unless you're onna look at both sides equation, you'll never solve IT and we need to break cycle of violence to which women contribute.

I I had a similar story, but inverted the twenty two, which is heartbreaking. And I hope, I hope that sounds like there was sim sold justice. But he is a story where there was no justice.

And this was only few weeks ago. Woman stabbed her boyfriend to death. I think he stabbed one hundred eight times. He died. And do you know what sentence he got?

He was let out. SHE got a one. no.

SHE got a hundred hours of community service. Why I? Because apparently he was in some kind of infused stupa, and he was in control of her, what she's doing. And I I don't think that's what why, how colaba works and IT is in some sort kind of rage and that's what mean like we're depriving women of autonomy of their own decisions and their own actions, unlike SHE killed her husband, who killed her or partner, and SHE did one hundred hours, community service has less than one hour per stab.

And because, because, oh because .

because like just completely absolve to autonomy. And if if it's true that he did that through a psychic c break, then you should be in some sort can help somewhere SHE shouldn't be out in community service like he's unsafe one way or another. And it's I don't think you'd have that if IT was everywhere around.

If a man who stabbed his wife for god to death that many times, I didn't think he'd get hundred years to service and a snap on the risk and let out, and he shouldn't be. And we, again, we by no means talk about violence, women, enough detail, and every, every crime and deaths, heartbreaking and deserving the attention. But we just need to talk about when apps to men, which we don't.

Do you think that men have reproductive rights.

not in the context of the way we discuss? Like pro choice. Like i'm pro choice. I believe a woman should have the choice of what he does have a body if for when he has a child.

I feel like not only to see benefit from that, but why do society benefits in the sense that we're not forcing women to have children don't want. And if you look at the data, unwanted ess causes a huge amount issues. Later, knife a child born to unwanted mom, for example, is more likely to be a criminal.

I like to apply that to men to who don't have the same choice. So after conception, a man's choice to be a father is gone. He sought the hold into woman's wishes, which, which is quite right.

He should not be the choice if he keeps so he has an abortion in my opinion, but he's coming home for the ride. Whether he likes IT or not. He has no choice.

His choice was to wear condemner. And what whatever reason maybe did if he becomes fragance ant does no choice left chicken, you know, have a morning after the pill. SHE can have abortion. SHE can have cheer, safe haven in laws, which based mean that up to three weeks after birth, a woman can give a baby to a police station of fire station, and they'll take IT, no questions asked, no name or nothing. And as a man does not have that choice, and he's the forced to finance the decision, he has no choice in.

And this is summing that called a paper abortion, or more recently, called voluntary parental surrender, which is a hypothetical right which doesn't exist for a man to um for fit all privileges of responsibility to a child he doesn't won as long as a he tells the mum to be early in the pregNancy SHE can make an informed choice b. He continues the medical fees of childbirth. IT doesn't exist.

A lot of pro choice feminist supported a current co. And she's saying like autonomous ous woman making a unilateral decision, a should not expect demand to finance that choice. And I get IT is a very controversial thing.

People think that gives medaba to be sort deadbeat and step out of charted. And they will ask some fair criticisms. I I don't never say think I support or unsupported. I want to have that discussion.

I want to know, what might these rights look like for men? Can we give me more choice? And is forcing men to be dads, to children they don't want gona have the exact same problem as the same ARM to women where IT was causing, like a generation of unwanted, more likely to be criminal children.

And we all know the links in five lessons and crime, juvenile or crime, and boys, and I want to know well, is giving choice to men and fathers gona help them make that choice to become to be a committed parent, as I feel like a parent has chosen to be. One is more likely to raise a child as happy and healthy. And that's why pro choice for both men and women yeah what do you .

say to the people who would claim if you didn't want to be a farther action of had sex?

And I mean, there is a famous slogan that says consent to sex is not consenting to parent hood and I agree and that applies to men on women. You'll see that sign on plug ards outside um in protests held by feminists consenting sex, not consenting to parent hood. Some people disagree.

That's why as my and I like to extend that, I feel like I think like one in ten men in amErica have been forced or had a partner try to trick them into get pregnant. Didn't wants to one in ten. So outside the classic thing of life, or one a baby shopping, I supposed to call IT that and I all, they should have a choice.

There are men who have been rates that have been legally compelled to pay child support, uh, then have a choice ever. And boys, there's bring boys that have been raped by babysitters, teachers, and they grow but four, five years later, and then they served court documents saying, you owe this much million child support. And I like, they didn't have a choice either. So against very complicated and that I didn't think this mean of variation of sex is pictured and not very modern perspective opinion. And IT certainly isn't polite to women unless you're.

of course, prolife. I suppose this tumbles down from reproductive rights into custody rights as well. I haven't actually seen you write much about this, although you post a lot on your instruments. So everyone move. Miss IT, what's the T, L, D arabs a fatherhood custody rights .

in amErica pretty best talk about IT. So what a lot of people want is called a presumption of joint child custody. I think you got that right.

And what that means that the father and mother who have fighting cost enter core on a level playing field is presumption that we're going to a shared child custody here currently, that doesn't exist, that only exist in two states I think one of kansas, florida, was going to bring in. But they got throw out as much campaign against IT by, ironically, the national organization for women, which is the biggest feminist group in america. They would once acamas ign against equality, which is just doesn't any sense.

Um so presumption of shared custody, basic laws, both plants are in level playing field and they basic build their case from there. They say I this I much free time and then obviously people start making accusations, abuse becomes very messing family call. But like I said, that presumption of shared child custody oil exists may be in two, perhaps three states is increasing, but not all of them under the area.

Inning that the U. K. Even worse than in the U. K. If if you're not married, you are screwed. Like if you're not married or name on the birth, divulge as their father, you have no right that.

Oh yeah, you you said care about this was your justification for why men should get married, or this is part of your justification for why men should get married.

I mean, I know if I made that argument, but if you want to keep, if you want to equal to your child, you should be married. yeah. And I just think that I may imagine that woman not having rights to something unless he was married to a man.

That is that as ultimate? That is like the ultimate atrio c definition, that you have to be married if you want equal rights. That's exactly how IT exists in the U. K.

For fathers, you had to be married or named on the birth divulge, and in both instances the mother can to be like, no, i'm not going to know you are not going to name you and SHE has all SHE has full control about chinese life. You have none, and you'll have full rights, no matter what should not to married. SHE can be single, divorce, separated, or mary doesn't matter.

SHE has four rights. The child not in the U. K. Not for men. And it's not much Better in america. But if you want to see serious systemic sexism, then just go and spend a few hours outside of family caught and talk to some of the far is coming up and your his stories that will change your mind I think, yeah.

how right do you think Billy elish was when he spoke about men not facing criticism for their bodies?

Because women are nice. I like, really ellish, I like my music, but that was so stupid. Like, like some slippy should stick to what they, they are good at was singing and leave the politics to grown ups. Basically, what he said was, men don't experience criticism for their bodies because women are nice and like what like IT doesn't anything. Men get huge of criticism for the bodies like so much, including from women.

Like men, in some day i've seen, have show more signs of body, more disorder than women know, the more self countries about their body, and not in the same way that was interesting, not so much weight, but hide hair lines, facial hair, pena, sites that different things self contain about. And for Billy, I lish to say that is so stupid. And also in the context of the fact that he has herself shamed men's bodies, SHE talks horrible about ugly men and how title they are and just horrible, horrible stuff.

And it's interesting as IT brings into light some of the horrible Operations and batshit crazy procedures that men are waiting to undergo to alleviate these issues, like we're talking about leg breaking surgery, which is where a man pays thousands upon ds, and they'll certainly break his famous. They'll insert titanian rots. And over the course of months, the titta, an roads of extend of our six inches.

Any gains, about six inches. Es, in high express. Ame, painful, very dangerous and expensive. And it's becoming more, more popular force of non medical reasons for men doing, if esthetic reasons and have, that is horrible pean's implants of pumps and tablets.

And like the fact that someone could think that men don't face criticism for their bodies is just revealed a breath taking sense of ignorance. And for someone video english who has learned a lot about being shamed and being objective ed for her body, like she's know Better, and I just think she's in the ignorant. You just wrong, just wrong academically. And I learned .

from you that it's not just leg breaking surgeries, but there's pean surgeries now .

yeah there's a thing it's called a femina or something IT basis is like a silicon spring role like you have insert into openness and unlike other cosmetic surgeries, but like bobs and bump in plants, which are dangerous to penis, not the same because obvious ly grows and shrinks and change shape for the day. And unlike your books, they say more the same size. So this doesn't work, is extremely dangerous.

And it's very little like oversight over these source surgeries that men are undergoing. And if you know if you listen to the reason why men are getting them, they are not. They didn't need them. They have perfect functional well size penises. But a lot of the reasons that I I felt like I was a satisfying her or you know, I wanted to match up with her explode friend and IT speaks to a very deep, much deeper, more candid insight into immense and securities and that they're right across the board. And I we should be talking about them too, and we not yes.

got briefs from australia, was on the show and he was talking about how male body to small for her is on track to ever take the female to small. I think the future of the issues between the sexes is going to be mental health for women and a lack of role models for them and body image for men. And that insecurity. I think that we're going to see a crisis of femininity, but a, uh, male body, this movie epidemic. I think that that may be where ten years time, five years time, I think that may be where we end up.

I think they cry. I mean, if I want to put my place a bet cap on, I think the Price is a feminity is going to be when they finally reach end of the road of being the new fortune five hundred CEO and finally realised that is not the key to happiness like it's not like.

dude, I got I got to tell you about this is a will Smith in his biography written by mark madson, says, when I was broken miserable, I had hope because I could become rich in IT would make me happy but when I was rich and miserable, I was deponed because I had nowhere else to go.

Yeah, I first ten is my adult life building fair. Mark, success and IT didn't make me happy. My dad did the same school whole career doing IT. I don't think he made him happy, made him very lonely, isolated, and then me as well.

And if you just look at fundamental sense of meaning that if they have asked men and women, where do you find happiness in life? And women are far more source of happiness than than men. They have friends and family and hobbies, interests and work, and builders have work, work in money.

That's that's where they find happiness. And I feel like too many women are trying to replicate that idea of if you're successful, you will be happy and i'm a promise you men are bought ticket to that ruffle many, many years ago and is a many favorite bird. IT is not quite as simple as that seems IT may you probably will not make you happy.

And I feel like women in many ways have the winning sick already. They have amazing networks for friends. They have a really strong connection of the family.

They are entering the workplace. And I don't think they to trade that in to follow men down the road that has made so much for men late in life. Now that's why I think the crisis facility might be intended ous, but that realization hits and IT is surrounded by reubens miserable boss bit.

According to the biggest study of its kind, men are more likely to have face hiring discrimination than women.

Now yeah, I mean, you're really rocking up the controversial claims like this is yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Basically biggest city ever done into hiring bias fingers. Over forty years, maybe eighteen cities, hundreds of thousands of applicants studied. And what they do is they basically look at female more applicants for jobs in female more dominant industries.

So for women are teaching, health care, psychology, schooling and for many stina engineering, science, physics and after that and they based manipulate the cvs of equally qualified men, women and they measure uh sort of cool back rates and they found that um the bio second women in mile dominant intrigues and in some cases reverse slightly but the bias of men experience in female industries remains consistent. So that was the first set of findings. Second set findings probably even more important.

And is our perspectives of a hiring biases completely wrong? We we. Totally misinterpreted. So they asked sort of the average american member, public and academics, what do you think the buyers are gonna be? And they would way out, way out, like three or four times out.

And again, we need to reset our perspective of hiring bias is interesting as they had exact same conclusion in australia because they were trying to get more women into government musicians, so they decided to hire blind. They decide to take gender of cvs and desire e based on merit, which I might ask great. But what they found is they ended hiring morman to morman based on merit.

And then IT was such an unpopular thing that they decided to scrap IT. So then they went back to put names on tvs. And then though, what this is the kind discrimination we like, we going to discriminate and get more women positions of power.

So yes, biggest study ever done in the herring buyers has found that many other ones being discriminated against. Of course, that's changed over time. Twenty years ago, IT wasn't the case, but now is.

And I don't know why we cannot keep a clothing on a post of sexism and constantly shape a reform opinion, reform opinion because I have a sign progress. We should be happy about how we've eliminated by asking women in male industries, uh, and give ourselves a partner back. Now do the same for men trying to nursing or health care teaching.

I also, like men, like to speak doubs in playgrounds for children's, often those that's at the old girl's club. I think, I mean, I know so many fathers who are looked at as pedophiles or predators. Baby says, when awaiting with the child at playground, I thought about one story about a guy got pepper's breed taking a photo of his own kid. And i'm like, we need to do, we need to do a lot more to bring men in those spaces. And then I guess you have to fold down the chain you have like this aren't baby changing tables and vents changing rooms so that men have to ever going to women's changing rooms or change your baby somewhere else and it's like it's tourist.

but I think um not the baby changing thing that's insane. I didn't even know about that and IT makes complete sense. I yeah I sometimes is disabled changes, but I guess I have seen I don't think i've ever seen IT in the mends.

no. And it's annoying because this happens along side a separate conversation where we could consider manding furthers take eat responsibility for childcare well, how about equal respect first and how about equal rights? Like that's how IT works.

Like if you want equal responsibility, you need to give eal rights. That's how that works. And no one is doing that. I want to stands more of fathers was constantly humiliating them. Yeah.

I suppose the interesting element of the guy getting pepper sprayed at the playground because he was taking a photo of his own kid is that that is almost surely a product of what the culture and the means have sort of pushed forward. And quite rightly, stranger danger, all of that you know, like, do not get into a car with somebody that you do not know. I remember the head jog from the Green cross code, remember? Yeah.

I have not bought about, hatched in many years. But thanks for bring mean as a great campaign that i'm a, oh yeah, the hatches. I think as the americans .

would know what we're talking about, maybe they have had their own, they would have a very patriotic, had done .

talks about women away. Like, if anything, when women who spend more time with children and mothers are the number of abuse of children, which is also unpopular, but or be IT true, no one talks about women that same way. There are so many headlines of, like, teachers, female aches that are basic rapping boys.

And it's like, saucy teacher has flying with fourteen old. And might he ranked him like stop this lucky boy phenomenon of like a boy's lucky def sexy teacher and like what she's a peat of and he's a victim of rape and we don't have that same perspective. Was a man taking photos in child pepper spread? He has a one and I saw another one.

He was like a man waving at a child and the police got involved and the police went to found the man invest because they think the police turns out he was his waving in the child, ross, the road he was like, yeah, you can cross and they like Peter file and IT was a whole police investigation and it's just it's gone too far like there was part of its being mindful of your safety, and we all be mindful of our safety. But when IT becomes this historical fear mongering of men, that stop is a cultural fear. It's gone way too far when when I get peps braid at that, or being investigated by police for waving a child across the road. H, we can all agree that too much, too much for the fiction, too much stereo. Uh, this cultural panic is just gone way too far.

Well, I suppose the. The reason for this is there are still reports and stories of men misbehaving in ways that are awful and news worthy. And the solution to that is okay.

Well, let's be let's just continue. It's like there's one solution to IT, and the only solution is vigiLance. And you just have one dial and you just continue to turn up vigiLance more and more and more. Let's just continue to scrutiny and be vigilant and be aware and make sure and so and so and that's that the only button that there is depress. And the issue is that I don't think that necessarily gets rid of the problem.

No, what IT make, I think that makes people more afraid in many ways, is, of all, we hear these stories of, like vigils, films, you know, horrible crimes, men behaving badly. Although I said us in a statement, I that is gonna create more fair that is going to .

do you not report on IT?

But I mean, man goes to work, has a sandwich comes, goes to bed, that is not interesting news is IT but a man who assert a woman that is headline use all over the country. And like we are not, I wouldn't report IT, but we should be we should understand that way. Missing a very small minority of men that are being high Price of amplified through social media news, we're getting a world perspective of what the world is really like.

And we really, really are put in, have one talks about all, not all men. And i'm that not all men is really important review that we should be using, because IT is not all men. If you actually look at the data north point, two percent of americans are arrested for a vine crime each year.

Not point two percent. Not all men are tiny, tiny percentage. One tiny point of one percent arrested violent crime, unlike one percent of people uh commit like six cent crime, six cent crimes by one percent of people and it's not all man doing IT.

It's just not neither man billion's like that's what i'm second tired of who has the most billion's being used, the metric for gender quality, but there has any sort of meaning, but not to Normal people like the chance of a man being a billionaire like not, not, not nor nor four percent and the chance of woman being a billionaire is that not not, not, not, not, not nor five percent and as that yeah one of them is bigger but they both fucked in small is that you're comparing two grains of sand like, yeah that's bigger but the tiny you are not going to be a billie e where be a woman to break? Meanwhile, measures of equalities such as education, health outcomes, life expectancy, which are applicable work to everybody, are not not included at all. We can't talk about murders, billionaires and all these things.

Violent cout, like very, very rare incenses. And meanwhile, men who die Younger in everything continuing world and boys who are behind every day of education, every single western country not talk about. And I my the ability to decide how we measure equality is a privilege in its own right. And what the metrics will be using that is not not inclusive enough, and that is keeking away warped perspective.

What was that thing you were teaching me about, like the minimization of male suffering and kind of the pedestrians ation of female victims? Od, or something? That was the Sarah ever. Our case was an example of that.

Well, yeah, when we what gamble by us again, which is where we highlight certain elements of mailers. So we highlight perpetration in a sense of men, men being violent, no knife man, gunman, conman, hinchman. Uh, you know, it's very much part of of the naming.

So sa, everybody was killed by when cousins he was. A human piece film is a police officer who based killed her in london few years ago. And again, that Sparked a huge outcry.

Understand that be so of violence against women. And the horrific crime was a catalyst. Our chain and anger, so much anger.

And IT went too far, in my opinion. IT became too political, even serious. Own friends were saying, Sarah didn't hate men like this.

You stop your basic high jacking grief and her death for your own political gain. And all you heard as male violence, mae violence, male violence. Following week, also in london, a man died into the tens to save a woman who tried to kill herself.

So he jumped in. He had knowed who he was, he jumped raight after, and he died. He gave his life trying to save a woman he never met. And I, like we never talked about male herr's ism, mail sacrifice or bravery.

And that's what mean, that's what scamper as because as we highlight perpetration, we minimized this, a celebration of men, and the victim had a men, and again, very warp perspective of society that is systematically negative, especially towards men. And we need to recognise that the vast majority women and men are good people, are nothing like winged sins. And until we do extend, dividers can get bigger and bigger.

I think. Does the world really judge women more harshly for their sexual history?

I am not when the data no, that's not to say women aren't judge for their sexy history IT is the argument is that they not judge more harshly than men um I mean, I think the long term relationships looking for partner judged equally. Y when IT comes to short term relationships, there is a doble standard but against men so men are treated more harshly, judged more harshly for this of sexual history. So there's a lot of way to telling me, telling us that lots and lots and lots, I put the city of two thousand norwegian men alongside four fer studies all around the world, and people who came factual, the idea that was norwegian en, I know this is a very small, selective city.

Another, yeah that's why I did four more studies and here's several more like it's a well established uh in in the literature that this stable standard of shaming women is is folk law IT doesn't is not in the data and we we treat men and women the same and if anything, we treat men more harshly than women in that case and the eyes like that's just instagram science, really like a bunch of armchair experts. Just making hypotheses during conclusions are based off anette evidence which certaine exists, but is not what's seen the data not not at all. No.

well, we had a conversation last time for the people that miss that. They should go back and listen to that. Really great.

You're a guy who's ordinary from the left. That's your political standpoint. But you're also very prominent, which is a relatively unique position. I think that leads to hold publicly.

And we had a discussion about what the problems were, what was wrong with the advice that the left we're giving to men? We know that they treat men like defective women for the most part of. They just minimized their suffer. Forget about them entirely. What do you think is wrong with the advice that the right gives to man?

I mean, of this is the inverse of the problems of the left half where like the left think genders complete social construct. Where's the right often think it's biological socialization has no impact on the personally I think it's a bit of both on the same. Like people think masculinity is the problem on the left.

People on the right thing is a solution. I like one of the my one of my big grapes of the right perspective of men's issues and masculine to in male suicide crisis and men's mental health, is that they think the solution is to reinforce the antiquated models of manliness, to help men becoming at the breadwinner again and to find purpose. And we capture their mind hood and basically holding men to a very old archetype of masking ni I E, the sole breadwinner for the family in the coming home, one thousand nine hundred and sixty household, two and half children, a lovely wife.

Although that does not exist anymore, that does not exist. Women have entered workplace, quite rightly so, and men can no longer take that position. IT just doesn't exist, and we can't all be.

And dutch, so of baghdad bread winners, this is not possible. So like I said, we need to help men find more, more sense of purpose ness, but more sense of meaning than life, because simultaneously, I do, and somewhat rights coming from. And I do think men get a lot of benefit mentally from being productive and being a powerful, having a sense of purpose.

But the promise, we need to find that purpose and meaning outside of his very narrow, you know, bread, when a job being rich, so of architects es, that are just increasingly unable to achieve that's just, I mean, yeah, I mean, don't give me died, but I do think and write them Better, but they are no means perfect, right? Sometimes they becomes, they get so close to talking about men's issues, but in a different format, like i've been very interest in following the whole, like transferring surgery on miners and how the right hate IT. And I am up to answer too, but I have no idea why circumcision has never been brought into discussion of surgeries. Unelected, a non consenting surgeries of miners on medical unnecessarily surgeries. Am I surely they are both surgeries on minors for ideological reasons.

But that's a question. why? Why hasn't there been a reckoning around circumcision yet, especially given how much of a hot topic female genital mutilation is?

I do not know. I do IT blows my mind out. People think that the right people on the right, right in point specially don't seem to mind ideological altering of baby genitals.

Um and there is there are almost no metal medical benefits for circumcision. Um it's almost always done for cultural religious reasons. And he has done millions, millions, millions, millions at sixty percent of baby boys, eighty percent of men in general amErica we're talking in billions actually looking worldwide.

IT is is such a massive problem and that's what we do people listen to right now that feel I ve been circumcised. You are very defensive and they always comes up, always that would work and post about IT is what people in the comments are pissed off at me. And I think that's the problem. The problem is, is so widespread, so Normalised.

what are people pissed off about?

They think, they think that they're being shamed. They think that they're been used, the political pool. They like their dicks, but they don't they don't know any differently a lot of the time, and they don't on't even.

They quite understand that when he circumstance a baby, you're removing more than half the nerve endings of the penis and the most sensitive part of the, and it's almost always not needed. IT leads like significant problems that in life that wrecked out dsf unction IT can be trauma. Tizer babies die from my infections and blood cuts.

Over hundred babies die every year in america, I think, from circumcision and is just totally not necessary. IT is needed, a very small number of cases, but IT knowing near the size IT, which is being done. And again, still standard people are not comparing to fg M.

And F, G, M are very complicated to its own right, but there are certain types of F, G M, specifically type one a, that are comparable to circumcision because they basically removing the same logical tissue. So the kids will heard of the prepuce is being removed in F, G, M type one. A took into the nativity, not the same as the male forking the same biological tissue.

One's illegal ones. Perfect, acceptable. And I I do not understand the hypocrite y there. I do not understand that our standards, and I don't understand why circumcision isn't talked about within the context of transforming surgery .

is is the same thing yeah there is an awful lot of attention on the right around transforming surgery and absolutely zero .

about yeah the circumstance no nothing nothing and like IT doesn't matter. Like this thing is about fourteen national hel organizations, most in europe. I've come out against circumstance saying it's assault and boys.

It's the invasion of his autonomy, his bodily autonomy and integrity being taken away from me, and nothing there. F, G, M, rightly so. One of the most horrific things that could happen to a human, especially the latter stages, is outloud illegal.

More, less everywhere. Now is is pretty doing pretty good job. But there are no, there are no laws outlawing ircam cision.

none. And this is like, it's totally acceptable. And you should, you should go to see you if you don't. People say it's not. I'm sure people say that now, but you should go watch a circumcision of a boy on youtube and you'll change your mind like that. IT is not there are some horrific things you can see, and it's just we have a very misguided perspective .

of circumstance while Opera winfree is putting creams made from four skins on a face.

Yeah, I put that post up and people like, this is sounds like an episode of black mirror and I like, yeah, except it's real. So what that is ism is been revealed that a bunch of wealthy celebrity women are using a face cream that's formula from the clone force kins of baby boys in korea. So they're taking for skins.

They're closing IT, the turning into face cream under slapped on their face and IT costs at hundreds of dollars a pop. And hope win fry is interesting because he is A A world renowned advocate against F. G.

M. And if he goes home and slapped baby forcings onto her face, and i'm like, I I displode IT blows my mind to reading that. And like, what happened to the sankei, the human body? What happened to bodily autonomy and rights? Like where did they go? And we like, like said, F, G, M is verified special in the western world. But circumcision is a face cream.

So is that but the cultured cells, right? That the duplicated, it's not actual it's not original for skin, its carbon copy for skin.

No, it's not like this missed up for skin. No, it's clone. I mean, it's very sickly to if we don't really know, but I I mean adult, I won't y really matters how many people in the jar is still the same invasion of body autonomy.

And like we wouldn't we wouldn't have a bunch of jim brows making like protein powders of like female body parts, would we? And yet we've got a bunch of celebrity women making face of male body parts of babies body parts. Um but now I didn't know how many force is going to a portion of our wind freeze face cream hopefully too many but you're right IT is IT is clown for skin but it's it's just great IT is barbari .

it's prety task yeah .

it's like he is like black mary. I can all well, film or story you yeah what about a sexual .

assault in american men's prisons? That seems to be something else that you you've spoken about that the right probably should pay a bit more attention to I mean.

going to bring up everyone talk about they're not they're we talked about how men not capture sexual sault data. They're ate by women. But men in men prisons are captured, ever.

They also, that s never forgot to the wedge, the pitch. And the wedge is nine hundred thousand, more than one hundred thousand cases of sexy in american prisons. And again, if you fact that .

into that can't be every year no.

I think that's over a city of the course of the city. So we must mean years and years and years o and that's instance is not not individuals as lowest temple as well. And it's a massive problem like physical violence. Sexual violence in mail prisons is literally seen as a joke, like we literally left by IT like even to talk about rape cultures. I think male prisons in amErica are an search, a powerful example of.

But you are right, there is another bit like instead of circumcision, where is hypocras y from the right where again around from people is obsession al of change people um and a trans woman were going to woman's prison and then suddenly the right becomes massive art and advocates of safety and prisons and yet meanwhile the rival gangs are being mixed together in men's prisons and no one cares but one translate makes IT her way into women's prison and everyone loses their mind and they all try position is always we only care about in a woman's safety or safety prisons but I attempting that's true because they'll be talking about the hundreds of thousands of cases of sexual so immense prisons that they probably what jokes about so I don't believe they have been um I think they're been quite this generous. I don't I think it's a lot it's about lot, a lot more than prison safety. And the often transformed a what else? What else is the .

right not paying sufficient .

attention to? I mean, lots of things. I again, a lot of is about perpetrating very old architect of mindless.

A lot of people talk about male disposability, which is a very interesting phenomenon where men and boys suffer against many boys is not seen as important as tours women that goes. I guess that's been a running theme of this podcast. And I think it's true.

It's impossible to look not to eat, not to die IT. And people asked about why, why do we not give a shit about men? And then i'm so sick of people on the right, wrong pundits bringing up this idea of reproduction value, that the idea that women have greater reproduction ue than men.

Therefore, men safety is not important, and IT shouldn't be important. And then often this is accompanied by some, some of hypothetical a story about tribes es. And the idea is that he have a tribal women, the men, the men go off the war, and even if ninety percent of his men die, they can still be populate the tribe.

However, if if ninety cent of the women are killed, not tribe, the tribe is a wiped out. And that is basically how they justify my disposition, is because men have less every productive value than women. And I think that's a fair point of view.

If we lived in prehistoric tribes, if we were wondering savana new climate reason, things share each other. But I look at where we are. Like when i'm SAT of a 4k camera film in my face， i'm talking to you, to you, the world. I'm living in a beautiful flat. I'm surrounded by modern technology.

Like it's not right for these podcasts ers to bring up this fucking ridiculous be analogy and then they leave the podcast they hope into uber and they just fuck off to learn like i'm unless you're willing to climate change and start flying ship around, I don't think you can stop basing your life on tribes and all so like, so what like? Human beings are defined by their ability to surpass nature. Like the naturism policy is an interesting fallacy where people seem to think that what is set in nature is right and they can't be changed.

And I might look around us, we are defined as a species by outdoing nature. And when IT comes to this trope of tribes and use a just fiction for male dispose bly, and like we can do Better, we can overcome that too. And we need to, rather than reinforcing IT that's somewhat keeping ing on the right. And IT is boring, and it's just he is perpetrating and perpetrating the same problem.

What would what would be an example of male disposition? 3， being shown in sort of recent .

history mean one I once familiar with its bucker heroin. So I think is twenty fourteen buckham, who are a terrorist group in nigeria. They inform state, captured, I think, two hundred empty free nigeria girls, horrible, horrible horble crime kids up some discipline, and the world erupted, everyone that you must seem, bring back our girls by the pic signs.

Every celebrity on on the red cup was having IT. mh. Ama had won.

You had americans looking sick at the americans and the chinese government sharing data for the first time. Ages to try. And what that is, that is incredible.

Whole world got together to bring back our girls, quite rightly so. Another of two hundred and empty three girls, most of them were safely made home. But in the following three or four years, ten thousand nigerian boys were taken by buckhorn turn in.

The child soldiers are worse. No one said anything. I don't seen you bring back our boy science.

And prior to the girl has been taken that had been happening at all the time. Often bucker ham would take all children, released the girls, kill the boys. That's what they're doing for years no one cared than one time at the girls.

He became massive global cultural movement. And then they went back to taking boys. Ten thousand boys gone in the following three years, didn't know anything.

That to me is male disposable sy, like we just do not see IT. We see men as more disposable. Women is more precious I think.

Didn't we didn't just phillip PS put a fun in IT recently?

Yeah I mean not week as by but just Philips put in a foot IT in somewhere bit. So U K government um currently are looking into sending U K. Prisoners abroad to international jails to help alleviate the the crisis in prisons, over populated prisons.

I didn't support that. I didn't support prison system in general, but that's never never never conversation. But the idea is that we going to start sending british prisoners to international jails in prisons and just Philippines come in a, you know, probably the most famous feminist M.

P. In the country. And he said, we should only send men.

We should only send men, because women in prison are the product of abuse, and sexual women in prison are actually victims in their own right, which they are. They are, and I agree, but the same story for men. The men in prisons share the same experiences of abuse.

They have the same at lesson charged experiences, and that same stories of pain and trauma. And like, that is a fact like it's like one in six men prison have been sexy, abused fifty percent of things physically bused. Fifth have been neglected in child.

Like again that we start to podcast, we are talking about how men are not just some static object, whether that is inherently bad, born bad. They are shape by their experiences and where where just phillips can see that for women and rightly so. SHE is right SHE fails to expand that same compassion um to men and that's not SHE desire up and is stupid and is is embarrassing but yeah SHE just wants to men to these prisons not women .

yeah which is the same with the iranian protests. It's the same in gaza about who are the protesters that are being killed who the the familiar .

that are being killed yeah it's we only we will hear like a headline would be like one hundred people killed, including fifteen women and children, and no one ever asked, or who are the remaining eighty five announce his men, men and boys. And we is constant seeing women and children, women and children as if women are children and women, children, women are adults. And we not only that, but we exclude them in.

So people don't realize in the iranian revolution, the school women's LED revolution, ninety percent of protest adepts, where men and boys, ninety percent, every single execution has been a man from my last time I ject. And that no mention of that is conca seen as his movement for women, which is very enough, but they're not alone. Next, next says women are men, and they are laying down their lives.

Quite literally, none cares. Not so not mentioned in the headlines. None that makes you back to us in the gaza.

You hear about these trustees and halogen gaza, and it's always women and children, women and children, women and children. And I feel like that is insulting to women infantilize. And it's devastating to men because it's totally erratics their pain on their their deaths, on their sacrifice. Yeah, it's gabby make .

yes yeah, yeah. What what some you taught me a new word this week. By phobia, what's bite?

Well, I mean, a biphasic is basically the dislike a proportion of people that by sexual and it's interesting because this is A A db standard where women are very different attitudes in gentle by sexual man, then men have towards by sexual women, like most, most men will date by sexual women like my girlfriends by sexual. And a lot think it's is great. We don't really care. But as an interesting city, by phobia from some women, including by sexual women, that they will not sleep with a bisexual man because they think that dirty or secretly gay or lies. And do you know this?

What think there is that you just possible late? yeah.

I mean, if I read the antic dote, I I read a story about a vyse's al man who the the woman who was dating wants to bleach him, but joke, he wants to bleach him. He thought he was dirty because he had, he slept a man. And I posted this their stands. I think it's something like one in five only one in five women would have sex of a bisexual men um and a lot of the comments I got were like, yeah I don't even tell I don't even tell women are so sex with a man i'd been on straight and then this idea of like being secretly gay.

A lot of bicycle people think they're secretly gay when the not and ironically, a lot of the people, a lot of women who are very much for gender quality and inclusive ity in principle don't extend up to their personal life that that destroy out the fucking window when IT comes dating. Because now suddenly all these troops are by sexual en to come out the wood work, and then they use a justification for not for not dating them. And I get IT, and I get IT.

So there are things, good preferences. I have preferences in dating. I find some people tractive, some people less attractive. But once we have preferences to not want to date a bisexual man because you think he's dirty or a disease Carrier, they called often, that is by phobia, that is not preference size about just by phia. And I don't don't think there is a defense that can be used um at the same time I I would do recognise there are preferences and is nothing of having a preference and there is spray difficult discussion to have .

yeah why do you think we're at with the state of men's boy's advocacy? Are we still early adopters, the ck in third wave manufacturing or the holistic manner ard, the integrated whatever? How early is this and how far off in the tipping point?

What what you talk about there is the division of innovation, which is like a really old theories, social science, that talks about how does the idea become viral, how does somebody become adopted? IT works in that the civil rights moving, but also works in terms like iphone, how? How can he bought iphone? And IT basics, a graph of slow progress, slow progress, then suddenly IT takes off, reaches mass mark success and that our idea becomes viral.

Um but the thing about that, the fusion of innovation theory is that you have to reach a tipping point, a tipping point where enough people have adopted the idea that the the mass market are feel safe to join them, they are a bit more apprehensive and they need these people making instinct decisions to go first in the nail fallow, that's about sixty percent. So sixty percent of people need to adopt a day to reach a tipping point. And yeah is interesting conversation have in the context of many boy's advocacy because we are very early on in that graph.

We sort quite low down in the well. You have the visionaries, which are tip the early doctors, which is about top point five, thirty point five percent. And I can you own a Better position top by this? Because I I get, I asked a lot about two other ones are making waves, breaking new ground.

And I always like Chris Williamson. But you other one has been making these conversations mainstream and cool and intellectual and magnetic and terrible. And i'm like for as long as you involved, i'll be hopeful. I realize people generally.

but the in it's strongest man like threats, the needle of having this sort of a conversation about the chAllenges that men and boys face, about the realities and the oglio sides of both male behavior and female behavior for a long time. I was so I I would get, remember the first call Benjamin on the show saw going to a cat and, you know, say, say about what you will.

I I had a lot of fun, the times that I spoke to him and is becoming friend, and I was so lucky, nervous after I did IT. I was so nervous as I always we touched on some some spicy topics, say we mentioned some things. But ultimately, if the things that you're saying are backed up in evidence, and that said, with the goodwill of curiosity to try and find out more about what's going on or to understand the situation, I found that people seem to be maybe it's just this audience, I don't know.

Maybe I have an unreasonably reasonable audience and that might be that genuinely might be the case. Um yeah but people seem to be very understanding if you're like luck. I'm not trying to say this to blame or castigate or lay at the feet of someone an arrow or or or an issue that wasn't there that they maybe even want to wear of.

People can usually tell if you're doing something with good intentions and if you entering IT in good faith and if you're trying to improve the lives of everybody, or if you're trying to bring light to some topic and you're grappling with IT, you know, this some stuff is so much stuff that I read on your instagram, the tidman everyone, you can follow so much of the stuff like I opened up instagram to see golden, retrieve the videos and gym m motivation stuff. I didn't necessarily always want to read about male genital mutilation or the number of guys. So there's a degree of discomfort that in there.

But you go, okay, well, what's the alternative? The alternative is that people don't get to know about this. And IT is just perpetuate this existing like really unuseful baLance of ignorance. and. Accusation and persecution, wrongful and misinformation and confusion and lack of communication.

There is a mass of situation Better. There is a massive branding at density crisis around many boy's advocacy. Everyone seems to think your piece of shit for caring about fifty percent of the worlds population.

Everyone talks about men's rights as if it's something to be spat upon. How about human rights? Are you for them like men of fifty two percent of all human beings? And is difficult.

I find IT very interesting is up. I am, I like running. I, I am a crave solutions of expert, and I I found IT very interesting.

The space where there was so much competing evidence about the disapprove ge minor boys that people are not willing to listen to IT is quite clearly branded density crisis, where if he can present these facts in a way that, in a way, describe a compassionate and for in a grown up and intelligent, maybe people will start listen. And people are listening not as fast as I would have liked, but we need to get past the stigma. And this very old idea of men cannot experience any sort of disadvantage, and if they do, it's their own fault.

And we need to see men's issues as structural, as women are. And we also need to mind ourselves that anything we say about men, boys, does not, should not diminish what's happen to women and girls. I always sit down to people that disagree with me in the soft context, and I say, we can never conversation or even the girls for all day.

And we will probably agree on everything like I also care about. I also hate sexual sault and is devastated by the same stories you ve heard. And I want solve this comes as much as you.

But i'm trying to add to that conversation, trying to the second half the problem. I'm trying to wide in the perspective. And I did my my politics, not dependent on denying what you are saying, whether people i'm talking to you, their politics often um predicated on me being wrong and they have to bed to deny.

If you think patriarchial ia is the main cause of domestic violence, you need to now deny the fact back three point nine million, two point nine million men are victim abuse, that they just have to disappear in the U. K. And they don't. They are still here. So i'm far more in favor of inclusive stars at discourse that that talks about many boys.

It's it's so fucking clunky to have to carve out every single discussion. Wait, i'm not trying to minimize that. You know you do this weird rain dance. This is like fucking ritual before you have the conversation to train and prove that you're not, I don't know, work and like some part of some enemy, some real or imagined enemy, some uh uh ancient or vestigial fucking big get you know like, oh, you're just one of but yeah and IT goes .

that goes right to the top like i'm working right now. If someone is very influent from politics, public, the most influential, and politician, part of the most inventive people politics in regards to many boys advocacy, and i'm talking them about how do we actually get change off of instagram and actually in in the court room, cross homes in in the whole country.

And i've showing in a campaign i'm doing that talks about all different issues that makes them very, very visible in a way that politicians hopefully gone able to deny for much longer. And he was going through the different points I want to make. One of them was like the fact that women can't be held account, be charged with rape in in the U.

K. And he is that you can't say that. Was that why not is true is that is very politically unpopular. You will make enemies in politics.

People will throw out everything you said if you say that honest, interesting, because that is the game of politics, right? In the words even fry. Sometimes it's more, it's more more ant to be effective than to be right.

But I just feel very uncomfortable, the idea that I have to take away the fact that women cannot be held account table for rape in U. K. For the comfort politicians, unlike that, is your jo B2Be a p ol itician to mak e cha nge. And i'm not going na put those men that back at the q to help. Please take them, make them feel nice and happy.

So what what's the state of advocacy? I know you've been one of the I think you are probably the leader that i've seen for the minister. For men like push what's what's go and on with that you're going to be successful or are you just what?

great. Well, I bought the damn name, so I got that. K, but that was a really interesting, I think, quite positive view of progress, because I was talking about the fact that we need the minister for men in the U.

K. To work alongside the minister for women for years, for years and years and years. And people thought I was hilarious. People literally laughed.

没有 那些。 And now is is in the news, is senior on the streets outside, is being discussed by politicians everywhere. I mean, this still not past as a, as a petition right now.

That's probably not gonna be successful, but at least there is a petition now. And like was fifty percent of the public are against IT last more than last less than that was, you know, five years ago and the push back less and the supports being more. And I feel like that's a really good insight into the changing tides and people are becoming a little bit more willing to dip their toes to these issues.

And it's about time. And that we need that mass support. We need signatures. We need to be would make these demands and politicians, and we need a minister for men. Yeah.

could you do IT .

to be a minister? I now politician, three politicians be i'm in, I get for that poetry away. I just get to massive argument and we get arrested us.

But I i'd probably to stop calling someone names and just show in the story. I'm i'm just get triggered. I just be like I I would speak my mind too much, which I think would be quite refreshing, but I probably make my cover well.

you know, it's it's a shame that politics is best matched so much by the political, by the game playing and the the fucker. Y, and what about autism and all rest the .

stuff I ticking near that. Oh, I love that concept. When I read that, I didn't. I I just knew what I meant politely. And it's basically the day of politicians campaigning for policy on the people, on the base of getting the vote.

So politic, all that's all you can on my site, that is, you've captured my whole philosophy lights in just once in a word. And my my heart thought on politicians that they didn't give a fuck about anyone over than themselves. All they care about getting your vote, and they'll say wherever they need to get your vote.

And the people who vote most are women. Women are absolutely dominant. Men in terms of vote, turn out every single year.

So who do you think politicians are going to appeal to? Is obviously to be women because they vote more and that is politicking. And I I find a semi didn't genuine politicians that do not care.

They do not care about you. They just want your vote. And that's why I feel like if we make our votes dependent on these politicians talking about many boys, that's how we get change and that we need to start making these demands.

Writing to M. P. Politicians, you know, writting free bird cages does otherwise I want to do IT they don't distant care. That's politics.

love. IT why? I'm glad that you are going off the iphone and into the real world, at least in some way.

I really mean you and your works, your works very, very impact for another. People told you this before, but you're working so hard. Just try to wave this flag for, like something that no one cares about, no one wants to give you. It's just a permanent fight in the comments. And yes, you've got your you know sixty thousand hundred thousand supporters, the people that like IT but you're swimming against the tide or pissing into the wind in many ways uh but now i'm going to continue to try to show you down. People throw much as I like the work you do.

I I mean ever citing a positive view, I think do care. They just don't know. But I feel like the people that do know, and I make people every single day, like they are learning every single day.

And there I did not know that another, I do everything exchanged. And I think most people like that. They just do not know these things.

They do not know. Men lead nine at top ten cause of the in the U. S. A they do not know that boys are behind every stage of education. They do not know a devastating circumstances.

They do not know how many millions amen are being abused in when they do know they care. So the the issue is, I guess the ball is in my court now, and people at me who are their jobs to make people aware, aware is raising campaigns. And yeah, we need more people at mean in yourself to make people aware.

So they do discover their compassion for men, men and boys. Yeah, and thanks. Shutting IT down that appreciate time.

Do i'm going to keep on doing IT every time that you pulled something I find IT fascinating? I've got an archive of interesting carousels and stuff that I always want to talk you about. And yeah, it's it's been great.

It's really, really great thing you go on this little journey. So why should people go? They want to keep up today, the stuff that you do.

I mean, I did my token twitter. Z now, but silence the gram at the tin men. One word and everything you need is from there.

I am, I am trying to get off the screen and into people's faces a bit more. I won't be showing more information that soon. Very exciting campaign. And yeah at the tin .

men on instagram. I appreciate you.

thanks. Thank you. 拜拜。