#769 - Dr Shanna Swan - Why Are Men’s Testosterone Levels Plummeting?
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Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My yesterday is doctor shana swan. She's a professor at the icon school of medicine and environmental and reproductive epidemic ologies and an author many of us have heard about the harmful chemicals in plastics, food and water that can mess with our hormones. But just how much truth is in this, how much of our health is being disrupted by the modern environment?

Expect to learn what is happening to male and female productive health, how important test service one is for everyone, the problems with male fillin and sperm count, the chemicals that are most impacting reproductive health, what men can do to improve and increase their sperm count, how to limit your explosions of bad chemicals and much more sleep isn't just about how long you rest, but how well your body stays in its optimal temperature range throughout the night, which is where eight sleep comes in. Simply add their brand new pod for ultra to your mattress, like a fitted sheet, and dial automatically. Cool down or warm up each side of your bed up to twenty degrees.

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There's a description about why I like IT and there's links to go by IT and it's completely free. You can get IT right now by going to Chris will x dot com flash books that Chris will x dot com flash books. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome doctor shana swan.

What's happening to test test levels in men.

So that's a great question. And actually I work with a research group and have been for quite a long time, knows it's um me know ten years uh, looking at trends and and the trend we're looking at right now is testosterone, and it's difficult. We haven't finished IT were in the most of IT.

Maybe i'll come back and talk you when we get the results um but there are a number of papers published that we think are prety author ative that talk about declining test doctor but the the other thing that we can look at, which is different from doing a literature of you, you can say, well, how is a clinically and there is a lot of data uh showing that the use of testosterone, particularly by Young man, has been climbing um alarmingly actually um so from a lot of measures we have hints that test australis declined. That's a long way from saying what we said, what sprout you know world, why we see a decline and will come back to that. I'm sure we can say that about testoon at this point, but we can say there are a lot of signals suggesting that test stone is in trouble. Yeah.

obviously one of the chAllenges we have here is our Young men taking test because they are suffer with the effects of low tea, uh erector disfunction, low energy, low mood that such a, such a or is IT because of increases in body, this movie, or unrealistic representations of of men in media. And they feel like they need to use tests on his performance, enhance or to become a massacre, or to become a muscular and stuff.

Oh, why is IT the case that you have more verifiable data around sperm count then you do around testosterone levels? I would have thought that testosterone levels would have been more widely available. Uh, I know more guys that know that tester tran count, then know that sperm count.

That's a good, good point that's today and probably in the U S. Um but um sperm count has been understudy for uh sixty five years. So there there's a there's a long history of studying firm count and there's been very little on test astro.

Um so I can tell you why that is. I mean, many give us firm sample for a number reasons, not just research, right? They give IT for previous academy. They give IT um because they want to be tested for possible infertility. They give you for a lot of reasons, and I think it's much more common uh giving a test stone a blow example what you have to give for test astro is um I think less I know it's less wise for because as much of a literary .

on IT and IT went it's so interesting to me you know I again uh maybe again you you're probably right this is my not only weird bias but also my Austin podcast, brow biohacker world bias coming into play where all of my friends know that there are seven, fifty five nanna og ms pedestal ata and they're gonna try and get up to nine hundred because the um and I don't know who knows the spoon count um just before we get on to sperm count.

Tell me from the test after IT IT seems there are some kind of I guess rough hung signals that indicate the test stone is going down. How important is testosterone? You know there is a uh um somewhat in the media of a demonization in the some ways of a testore in manner or some of the activities, I suppose you know high test stone men um how important is test test to function for men, for longevity, for health, reproduction? What is IT doing in your world?

So I absolutely critical for many, many things. And I would start with the test stone in the developing views. So the first time the testosterone matters a lot using the first part of the first crime master.

That's how early IT is. And and IT turns out that, okay, so let lead me back off. Okay, at the beginning of pregnant y, as soon as you can measure anything or see anything, you will see IT genital ridge in males and females. That's the general track but is not different in males and females is just as ridge right and then at the right time, and we're not sure exactly of that time. We know IT in rodents and rodents had stay eighteen to twenty one, but in humans, not so much.

We know that it's an early first crime master and at that time genetically programmed if it's a genetic mail uh programing will um start the production of test stone by the tests, formation of the tests then testosterone is produced and that testosterone is what kicks off the genetic male differentiating himself from the genetics male up in the light point. It's all the time. And in fact, if the test astor's is not there at the right time or at the right amount, then that male will not proceed on the path to a male typical general. He will he might have smaller testicles s of smaller penis, small, less descent testicles s. And then my favorite is the intergenerational state switch we should talk about for sure.

So glad that that's am so glad that your favorite I was waiting for to bring IT up.

Well, the reason is my favorite is because until I started looking at IT, IT had only been looked at in animals. Nobody thought anything about A G, D. Enter generalist, and he was not considered interesting for humans.

And then I showed IT was, yes, extremely interesting for human. And and you know, so the the first thing talk about this differentiation. When you start out, everybody has the same agd length works.

And then as the testosterone comes in, the aged in the mail gets longer, longer. And until it's about you know twice islam as the female or something like that, it's it's markedly longer. If that doesn't happen then it's still a male but he's so incompletely masculine on his mail.

So so this measures is you know really, really critical. Um so and other things happen, the test you don't descend into the scrotum and the penis is actually smaller, which a lot of people get upset about. And so so that.

No, fulfilling that potential of a male typical general require. So you say that is that important? I would say most men would say that's pretty important.

yes. Okay, roll me forward because what we're talking about there presumably is indecent disruption in the mother, which impacts the growing fetus natly. What about when a mother and son are no longer attached? What how important is test us, run for development as we move into adet?

no. So the testosterone is important at many stages, is important for um puberty, is important for other markers of male development um and one of the things that's really key is as important for 6 beto。 Um so um and by the way is not just a male.

I just want to put in a little works to the email so we will talk about chemicals and influences test stone. And i'll just say that a class that i've said that is the class of chemicals they make plastic soft steps of valleys. Now when the mother or just a woman just have to be a mother is um exposed to less but actually north sales than he is less sad asi sexually.

So we found that out by asking women, we said. How satisfied are you with your sex life? How often do you have sex? That was in our study, we asked them that, and we got their urine. And in the urine we measured their follies. And I turned out that when the woman had low follows, SHE was less satish ed, and he had sex less often.

What does low thiload relate to from from a testosterone in female perspectives .

in both males and females? Salote lower teste start up.

But you said low sallets mean low test room. We did not be high sales. We IT mean low.

I meant to say low sallies, low testosterone, right? Sallies come in. Test sastre goes down.

understood. High thought. Latest one in both men and women. Okay, presumably this is double edge sod. If women who are high salad, lower into us room, sexual, less sexual satisfaction, and also the men who will lower in test stone have lower ab to probably lower like erection quality and stuff like that. So you have A A, an environment, an endearing environment here, which is reducing sexual satisfaction for both partners and darabi to satisfy each other as well.

correct. And and I do not have evidence, firm evidence of this. However, you probably I know that fertility rates worldwide are down, and in particular in east asia, they are absolutely at the bottom.

And one of the things that happening is that people are not having sex, they are not marry, they're not coupling, they're not having sex OK. And the government is trying to pay people to turn this around. Uh, is is really serious. Now no one has linked that specifically to an enduring dishart's in chemical. But I cannot believe, given what we know about the action of these chemicals that is not playing girl 这首歌 耶。

I was just in japan.

There is two phenomenon I wanted mention. One is called rent a family where if you haven't yeah you can rent, that can sign on to rent a family to get a child for 好的 spouse， for party of right. And the other one is the phenomenon of japanese women miring themselves.

And that is the weird thing to me, that, and you can go online and look for that, there are women who have ceremonies at which they marry themselves. So to me, this is one of the clear indications of the lack of A B A. Very strange, yes.

So weddings, japan solar weddings to single women. Self marriages has become increasingly popular in the twenty first century, especially among affluent women, as twenty fourteen, a travel agency in kyoto is offering self marriage packages for women, with some customers being wives who were dissatisfied with their original wedding. Wow, I mean, that's even worse than being left for the guy next door.

Being left for yourself is is A A real tough pills to swallow. So yeah, I mean, like i've a lot of conversations on the show about declining birthrates, something i'm increasingly concerned about, but doctor Stephen shore on the show, who I think is probably the best population demographer when IT comes to birthrates at the moment, he didn't. Amazing documentary called birth gap.

And I agree, me and my evolution pilled bodies, a lot of the time we're talking about the mating crisis, were talking about issues with women finding amount that they're attracted to, hyper me, more distractions from screens, you know, just more life options that people have delayed out lessons, pushing people's lives a little bit further. All of these in their all, you know, social psychology slash evolutionary explanations that come into attraction. But if we just straight up, say libidos lower, like if we just have that just is one factor.

The video gets reduce, we don't know buy how much, maybe it's by ten percent, maybe it's by fifty percent, we don't know. But people just less bothered about being sexually active with with and like just that on its own. That is fundamentally the driver and people can reverse engineer.

You am sure that you'll be familiar with the difference between proxim ate and ultimate explanations for behavior. So the proximus explanation for for having sexy sex feels good to the ultimate planning for having sexes that IT makes babies. Now what we're looking at a good bit of the time, I think, in my world, and this is something that maybe an error that I need to bring up with the guys while looking at the ultimate explanation.

A lot of the time by thinking people kind of reasoning themselves is a very cerebral, cognitive kind of um like right brain approach to people are reasoning themselves into having kids or reasoning themselves out of having kids. I've got other things to do. But if you just look way close to to home, sex is just less of a driver potentially due to reduce libido, reduce tests ran in both uh men and women uh and that means people just not so fast about getting into bed with each other.

You know, I remember when I was a, when I was a university, uh, fifteen years ago, but started the university got eighteen years ago now. And when I went there, I was still the sort of very driven Larry loud sort of british culture, and know all of where is now. I think fifty percent of manage dating to thirty aren't looking for long term or casual relationships.

To me, a man who went through that period of my life, not the reality distorting power of the male sex, rive in age bracket is is a site to behold you know it's very powerful. Um so yes, absolutely I think that that base rate should be feted in how can test us run just impact our desire to have sex and then downed am from that the babies, the marriage, the all the rest. Like if you are the sort of person that wants to have sex once a year or the sort of person that wants to have sex once a week, your desire, your um motivation to go get a partner going to be really different.

Yeah yeah I wanted to mention you you mention briefly uh the effective test stone over your lifespan. And I do want to say that there is no and there was just a new study out about this. Um we have increasing evidence that men with those firm count, men and women who are in further have a shorter lifespan.

It's really pretty now it's been showing enough times you know in denmark by my iceberg and stanford um there I think there's probably a half a dozen papers on this and it's really a lot. And I mean, first of all, men and women who have in impaired, I would say hormone systems are more likely to have other medical problems in, uh, for example, heart disease is increased um diabetes is increased, reproductive cancers are increased. What this adds up to is you die earlier.

So here's something that you are exposed to creative. And then again, in adult life, of course, or an adolescence, we can talk about when the exposure are important. But throughout your lifespan, particularly early in life, you're setting up you're setting up your health for the rest of your life. Exposures during pregnant y are most important for your whole life's health. Everything's developing that, right?

What is the relationship between testosterone and spoon count for men?

Uh, well, if you don't, it's complicated. Men who who use testosterone supplementation do not produce firm. I do you .

know that? Yes, I mean, I say, of course, like everyone does, but I think a lot of people think that going on, T, R, T will somehow increase your spam quality or increase fatlings, but IT doesn't.

The other the other however, um for the mainland of the system you need adequate has stores. Um so I an ongoing basis um for the system to work properly. And there's not just directly test astern sperm, it's you you need adequately test store. So interfering with that um is going to mess up your brain, mess up you know what the production is firm, mess up whatever the whole cohl game.

presumably low. So i'm right in thinking that must be A U shaped curve to test us on and sperm quality the too low tests on in men or is this just a lining? The lower the test run, the more spam because obviously too much, which is the exogenous stuff that decreases uh spend count? no. But what about too little?

Yeah so that when you're taking to your body against them, everything, all of these hormones work on feedback, feedback, looks. And so if you gave the message, wait, I got enough. The stuff you don't need to make this.

If your own text term production will be cut down and your production of firm will be cut down. So it's it's complicated and i'm not an android gist, so I can't really speak knowledgeably about this. But I can tell you what we observe that you know that when men go as you know, men go on tester, when they stop producing .

firm alright, so moving on to the big one, sperm count. What is what are the statistics? Uh, the trajectory of spending t over the last sixty five years.

right. So until so many people have looked at this and we looked at this, I would say are you're Better Better than anyone because we use techniques that weren't not available in the past and we we use something called a analysis and um we did a very dick dive um on the whole world's literature looking at firm camp um and i'll tell you the conclusion and then we can talk about what went into that.

The conclusion was that spam counts are going down and about one percent per year and they're not stopping is consistent. It's now we know from up recent studies that we've done is actually worldwide and um and it's increasing in fact that the the in our most recent study, the rate of decline was two percent per year after two thousand, two percent per year, which is huge. Okay, so we published in twenty twenty two. So after two thousand, if you go all the way back to one thousand nine hundred and seventy three and look at the whole spread, it's over one percent year. So that tells you that things are not getting .

Better by getting was it's it's increasingly .

decreasing that's increasingly decreasing how kind of wear. But there are is yeah um the other thing we found in our update was IT actually does seem to be worldwide in our initial analysis. We had to take the data.

We always have to take the day that is available, can't make IT up, right? And and and the publications in the non western cuttery were very few. So there was not very much data from asia and africa and south america, but in our twenty twenty two paper, there was much more. And I think what happened was when our paper came out in twenty seventeen, which was kind of big thing, a lot of people started saying we wait about what about us and started looking in these other countries and cause that in. And then we saw that I was world like so our conclusion of that twenty twenty two paper was sperm town is declining worldwide and the rate of the decline is increasing.

Have you got any have you got any idea what countries are having this decrease at a slower rate? Are there any blue zone equivalent for span?

It's a great question. Um I don't think we know enough to generalize, but I will say that in denmark, the rate of decline have seems to have leveled up as one of the best studied countries because a lot of the work was done there originally the first from decline paper came out of there and a lot of work they are excEllent and and um they've been following military recruits, man you know Young men coming into the military and asking them to think of a seem example live doing that for a long time and what they're seeing now is that IT doesn't seem to be getting worse.

So I would say if we had to find one place that seems to be doing Better, I would say is jam mark are still not doing great. They still have a lot of them with very low Spark a nevertheless now finally land, on the other hand, which um you know used to be much Better than death mark, is now going down to meet denmark. So that's confusing because they're very similar popular.

You know the demographically, they are not that different. Their exposure are probably not that different. So that's a concern that we have to to deal with.

I'm fascinated by a trying to map this because obviously if you could look at uh futility rates, marriage rates, if you could do some um self report studies of how much to desire sex, how often do you want to have sex, how often do you have sex, you know you could I guess to surveys as well about people's beliefs and desires to get into relationships and stuff like that.

I would love to map and and then look at what is very prevalent in the water. What is the sort of packages that I use, what's the type of consumption at such A I would be fascinated to see how much of this asian downturn in birth rates can be seen as um there is a particular uh, brand of plastic that is exclusively used to package al meets and and vegetables. And IT don't exist in finland recently. I inro's ced to finland and IT is been in fact south korea.

whatever for ages yeah yeah, yeah. I share that wish with you but um I don't think we're going to find that I want me once just talk about social factor since you kind of brought us up. Um so and we haven't I haven't said but i'm sure you know you've had a fertility expert on a demipho um excEllent person.

So you know that the futility rate, which is the number of children that a couple can expect have in their lifetime, that fertility rate, which should be two point one to maintain the species is now going down almost all over the world and i'll give you the exception but almost all over the world um it's including african countries which had a very high fertility rate. Okay um in e station so we want to aim for two point one. Okay, two point one maintains the outdoor in south korea at last look IT was zero point eight, right? It's also like I think point nine in japan, it's all those east asian countries are very, very low.

Germany also not not good at all.

not good at all if you want to maintain the population. And the governments are trying a lot economically to to pay couples to get married, to have children, to get you know do you get a tax credit for the child? You get hungry.

Did that thing where the the woman got, I think for three kids didn't pay tax for the rest of our life?

Yeah right. So but it's not working. It's not turning that around. And and so there's something else going on here, you see and and and so that's what we are is a society have to to think about if we want to maintain our existence. I mean, there are endanger species and and and and humans .

do for we of .

them yeah so so um but let me say i'm not saying it's all chemicals, okay? I want make that clear. I think the chemicals that affect our body's hormones are extremely important in the story, but they're not the whole story.

So so here's a couple of things that lowers burn out that you can control good to know, right you can can your diet you mention the blue zones, uh be interesting to see the fertility in the blue zones and the sperm council and I I don't think that dan has done that damn but um the um we did a study with harvard on um a day that man's diet and we showed that men who were eating the medicine diet had Better firm out that men who were eating the western diet. So that's one thing that's pretty clear. We know that smoking, smoking is a huge risk tor for lost bra.

So smoking there is another one that's not you could say that is chemical, but i'm putting them under lifestyle in some sense everything is chemical. Um then there's obesity and exercise and the usual you know if your bee is just prom counters lower your frictional ties lower if you don't exercise same um stress is really important and we we asked um man who gave us firm sample in our studies uh about their stressors in their lives in their daily lives. Typical stresses are moving and change your job and change your partner and death of a loved one and divorce.

And you know and if you look at those, you see that the more stressors the man house lower is from, it's not surprising. But there is another factor. So we're talking about a lot of life's factors.

Alcohol is important to particularly bin drinking um you know saturday night five drinks, six and eight bad back for so um and we can find more. But the but the point is here that it's not just these chemicals that are harmon disruptors that are on caring about or that other people care about, they're also the lifestyle factors. Now in terms of fertility, there are a sort of different factors and they're also important and they particularly have to do with the female side.

I think um by the way, those factors also affect male fertility, obesity, smoking, all those things stressed. But um the availability of contraction, which prime early has an impact on females, I think drives down the fertility rate. So if you have contract action available, you going to have fewer solder.

okay? Um if you have women educated, you can have your children. If you have women in the workforce and have children, right? So women's placing society is very important for the fertility rate.

So that's a very different kind of factor, but it's not a chemical, right? So if you put all those aside, I would take what you're left with. This is the chemical and we can talk about but I just I didn't want to give the impression that i'm all about chemicals.

No, I mean we ve we've covered you're the first person that i've spoken to about integrant disruptors and what's happening I guess um physiologically inside of the body beyond diet diet and and try and stuff like that. I'm going to get the uh sleep pull sleep um which we are increasingly subject to screens at night distraction ba a ba i'm going to guess that makes a difference.

Can I give you my a brosse theory a about why testosterone levels are socially mediated by contraction tion? So as i'm sure that you're aware, men who are around guns seen increase in test cost room. If I was here and I just had weapons thrown around the table, my test cost room would be a bit higher.

Probably I was wheeled ding a sad as well IT would be a little bit higher. But the same thing is also true for men who are around women that a photo. So if you give men the t shirts of women who are oval late and you get them to smell IT, they're able to pick those women.

You can show men the silver ez of women walking and the women who are oculina manual. They they prefer that there is something in the gate design that changes based on the the stage of the revelatory cycle. So I think IT this person's time, I think that the artificial suppression of women in men's local environment, that the flight lite through home on or both control the coil SATA is causing man, because that's another huge media ata.

If you if IT was me in a bunch of uh, grandma or three old goals, i'm surrounded by females, but I wouldn't be surrounded by fertile females that would have an impact on my test stone level and presume be on my spoon count. So IT is my belief that you've got everything spoken about, plus this evolutionary mediated test stone and spam mechanism, which are caused by men just being around fertile women. And because there are a few far women because contracts tion, that's also closing a problem.

And Chris, I want to use a word here, which i'm sure you know, but it's really relevant and that's very much. Yes so the fair mones that are produced and that's that's with A T shirt you were saying that you give a man A T shirt from for no those are hormones um and the the the influence of those heroes on men's hormones and sperm count. I don't know a study specifically where you know you look at sperm count in relation to, but I I suspect is there the other thing is we do know that when the woman you have a couple, the woman is pregnant, his testosterone goes down. He's not he's going to be staying home and not playing around for a while.

Yes, of course, mens strong goes down when they get into a shape, when they get married in them and they have children, we fit less risky behavior that wouldn't. So I I that mechanism works, okay? So we we understand that the mechanism of a being around an unfertile female mediates IT, what we don't know is how much is this happening on mass, how much he's another one I have even thought about until now, how much of the uh, increasing social isolation of men, you know, just spending time in their house. Maybe they work remote, maybe you've got a job that loves them to work from home, maybe they will spend a lot of time on screens as opposed to mixing, going to church, going to bars, going out, dancing, playing sports, doing things that would have allowed them to interact with women, fertile women in the environment. Uh, so yet we just have, it's this huge cocktail of social, hormonal, psychological, physical, environmental, lifestyle impacts that are all collect, sing to, like, new to the human race, both men and women.

Yeah, I want to go so far as to say neuter but certainly altered the hormones .

of you you the scientist i'm the one that can use the explosive .

language is you can do that you do but um I and I think all of that is extremely important however, I don't want to lose that of the ability of chemicals to also alter our body's hormones.

Let's get into the, let's get into the chemicals. Tell us, tell what we need to know.

okay. So can we go back to the unborne fears? I I will tell you the story. So um i'm flying to japan with a colleague named john brock who is a chemist, wonderful chemist and he works for cdc and cdc centres for disease control.

They've just figured out how to measure whole lot of chemicals in a lot of people for not a lot of money. So this actually change the whole research field because until then we didn't know how to look. I wanna know your levels of things in your body, chemicals in your body.

I can, I can ask you, I can ask you how much you smoke. I can ask you how much drugs you took. Blab a baba.

I can ask you how much this final layers in your body. B, P, A, right. I can ask you, so the only way I can know that is to look inside your body.

Turns out that a lot of these chemicals are water sonar able. And so they're in the euro, and that makes me very easy. okay? The ones that aren't water soluble are usually facts liable.

And they are in the serum. And so that's another way you can do IT, but that's still more difficult because you get a job, loot and but your is really easy. So when cdc could measure tons of chemicals in in urine, IT changed our research field entirely forever. okay.

So here I am on the plane with john and we're having a long flight to japan and he says, chauta, you should study selects OK and I said, as you might, if you didn't know Better what salad right and because I ve never heard of them and um by the way, my background is in mathematics, you know not chemist so you know this is like that though um so uh, he told me and he told me something about where they're found, which I can tell you in a minute and but he also said they're in everybody so that fact, one values are measurable in everybody's hearing in the states in the sample represented sample they would get and then he told me the kicker, which is that at the national toxic logy program, scientists had fed these same flowers that we have in our bodies to rats, pregnant rats, early and pregnant y and what they found was, but i've already told you that the mail of spring are incompletely masculine ized. They are born with generals that haven't made the full transition from neutral damascus. Okay, that is huge.

I mean, really, this was the first time that that anybody thought that this could happen on this physical, logical level in utero from these chemicals. Okay, so I was like, wow. And then I thought, naturally, being an epidemiologist at that time, I asked, what about humans? Because he told me about, right? So I say, okay, so then if we want to ask that question of humans, what do we need? So we have to know how much that is.

Because in the lab for the rats, you gave the measures. You could know how much, because you gave IT to the, but we can give that to people. It's unethical. You're not allowed to feed test chemicals to subjects of very are um and so we'd have to know how much they accidentally got in their bodies.

And that's when we realized you could do that in euro because john have measured IT in euro, right? So okay, so what I need to do is get the year in a pregnant women. And I got half the equation.

Unfortunately, I had a study in which I had saved the you're in a premium women. Always good to save europe because it's cheap and it's easy again. And I always tell my students save the year and save the ear, if you can, because just going to come out useful.

And here I was being extremely useful. So we got out these year in samples from the freezer, send them to the centers for disease control and ask them to measure the allies in the ear. And we found them tons of them. okay.

So then to finish this, I had IT to the second half, which was, look at the offspring, right? So to do that, I had to contact the mother and say, would you putting your baby in so we can measure its generals kind of work, right? But, but when we did that, and women did bring them in, and what we found was that humans, like rats, have this condition, which is called the salad syndrome.

So I mean, this was so important because this is a assign from one other sender, which is alcohol, fetal alcohol, sure of that. Um there are no syndromes named after chemicals of this kind. No prenatal exposure produces this cluster of adverse outcomes in, you know, named after a chemical.

So here's is the flic syndrome. And IT was just the same as in the rats, by the way, in the rats, the researchers have been measuring these things for for about fifty years. They have been using A G D energy, al distant and these other measures as measures of what they called reproductive toxicity.

That's part of their protocols, part of the N T, P. protocol. But no one had done that in humans.

So what we have to do is say, well, what does that look like in humans? What is that? How do you translate that exam in a rat to that exam in a female, or spring in the female human? So designing that protocol, that exam was, you know, different, okay, was difficult.

But we did that. And then we had to show IT was repeatable and reliable, and two people got the same measure. And you know, if you did IT, a week later, you ve got the same result. And all this kind of thing, you to do that. So we did that and published.

And IT was a IT was a ground breaker IT was huge um and IT would LED to legislation to keeped aletes you know out of certain things not quite right things could I took out of children's tories which is not relating to mother's exposure but anyway they are on the right track limit salad exposure and um and then other people started seeing that there were other chemicals that could do this. So it's not just salad, that lower tests. There are other and the class of chemicals at lower testosterone anti andreich.

And then at the same time, a researcher in washington state discovered that there was an estrogen influencing chemical, and that was this finale. So, you know, this is finally makes plastic border rutles hard. And so gradually people start to sing, oh, and what else can go wrong, and what can influence thread, and what can influence this form? And this m, and that class of chemicals are called indecent disrupting chemicals, because as the class, they disrupt the endurin system.

So there's eighty hormones in the body, is a lot of room, have a lot of room to defer disruption and there's like maybe one hundred thousand chemicals out there in commerce. So there is a lot of room for chemicals to affect that. And so this is a huge job saying, how can this huge class of chemicals in commerce affect these very large number of hormones, which govern our entire function? Our entire function and health is government ormonde.

So it's extremely important. And IT plays a big girl in the Spark story and in the fertility story and and what we're talking about today. So that's my rand on .

chemicals and what you're talking about, he specifically is at least so far, natly what does presumably a mother's consumption due to impact the development of a baby in usual, but then that baby is going to grow up and start consuming things that are in case in B. P, A, water bottles and have got salutes that maybe in drinking water and whatever um when IT comes to the culprits of environmental and lifestyle uh absorption consumption, what what are the what are the big move is what is that that people are exposed to objects and things um that are using these to go into our bodies, whether you are a mother or A A five year old child.

Food I would say is the primary is number one because there are so many Operators and we can talk about what those are. Um there are also um the chemicals we put on our body like skin care products make up because they're absorbed so when when you when you use chemical IT will influence you to the extent that IT to enters you if IT doesn't enter you know worry about IT right it's over the other side of .

the room still right right then I .

want to hurt you um but unless it's in your area, doctor something. So the three ways you get the stuff in your bodies, you eat IT or drink IT, that's congestion. You breathe IT repeater or its german ally exposed through your skin and IT turns out that several these chemicals are designed to increase absorption that are put into products, 想 我 particular put into products so they're go into your skin。

That's what what thing thing we do want in us makes stuff that we do want in us more likely to Carry the .

thing we don't want us into.

Fantastic when he comes to when he comes to foods. What do you mean when you say foods? Is that the content of foods? Is that the packaging of foods? How so how can we avoid .

all the above? So um the um go back to the the growth of the of of the food. So there is a question of organic and inorganic, which is another thing we can talk about. But I just want to add that some chemicals are added like sales to increase the absorption of the pesticide into the plant.

So even you know you the pesticide will be harmfully of zoe and IT will also be harmful because flies are entering that let us so that sparagus and and because they're deliberately to increase absorption. So so in the growth process, you have the concern about underground disruption. And then in the packaging, from the farm to the factory, to the grocery store, to your house all along the way, you have the option of introducing these chemicals.

And milk is a great example. So and I went, I was at a farmers market. I talk to the farmer and he's very proud, is male.

He said, I this organic, uh, are, you know, food for the cause organic and so so first and I said, great. And how do you milk them? You see IT, right? I can sit your smile and you you got IT. So milk that's pan milked has no family and other chemicals in IT.

If the farm, if the farm was milk that's collected through a milking machine, which has lots and tubes, you you've see those pictures, the milking machines, otto bes, those are conveying the value that in the tubing, which is put there to make that tubing soft and IT, turns out that the chemical is not bound to the matrix and is then it's very easy to come out of the matrix and enter, particularly if if it's a warm product. So the milk is warm, the flic goes into the milk, IT goes into the bucket, IT goes into the bottle, IT goes into us. And you can think of this for lots and lots of food, making spaghettis uce and making any product is going to be processed, is going to go through some contact with some plastic is unavoidable.

So IT is in the growing. It's in the shipping because the shipping containers contained plastic. It's in the processing. And then there's concern of how we stored in our fridge and how we heat IT. And sure, you've heard you never shoot microwave and plastic, right? I mean, no, no, no that's like the biggest now and and um yeah so I I actually want to do a little study called farm torc where you take this little tomato or this you know bottle milk at the farm and just track IT and see what the levels are of these chemicals all on the way. But no one is given me the money to maybe .

maybe someone will love to this presumably as well um the increasing shelf life that we have of produce uh gives them more time to be wrapped in plastic to sit on a shelf to accumulate in that whatever preservation or maybe some things is being passive. And because it's been pasture's, ed is able to sit without accumulating bacteria and going off.

All of this is just more opportunity for these indicate disrupting chemicals to just leak into the food and then for us to absorb them into our body. Just kind of round out that from a lifetime perspective, what are the principles that you try to follow yourself for? What are the biggest movies people can do to trying to avoid, uh, this up to be eating organic, trying to get there. I mean, for someone that wraps the tomatoes in a paper bag, like what what what are the things people can do beyond do not micro wave your food in plastic, this podcast, should people do not, might grow of your food in plastic? Beyond that, what are the other lifestyle changes and things people can do either when shopping, storing at saturn to to maxim this?

Yeah so i've i've had some experience going around the supermarket with people who are concern and and actually we film bad and that's another story. But but um it's really interesting to to do that and pick close attention to you know how things how much plastic there is in our supermarket and how unavoidable is. It's not completely unavoidable. You go to the vegetable area, the protest area, you can see in some supermarkets package let us and in some you know some places just open heads of let us and it's so refreshing to see that.

And and um I didn't a little experiment with some friends so I was going wrong with and I said OK less way these and IT turned out that the on package ones actually were a lot cheap er than the package ones steps a little outside but but they're also um you know and that's true of a fish that's already been filled ID or meat that's already been you know cut up over there and it's always gonna be more exposure and more cost. So it's really the people's advantage not to you know to get as simply as possible. And my ideal is if you have a farmers market near you, which not everyone has a good fortune to have, you go to that farmers market, and you buy IT in the simplest motion, primitive form possible out of the ground.

If possible, take IT home wash IT, and then don't put in plastic. There are other kinds of bags you can find. You can buy B, Z wax bags. You can buy I that this areas kind of underserved, I would say, by industry, but I think it's growing that's getting more, more options. There are our bags that are under safer.

From my perspective, one of the biggest changes I made less long ago that I would like to have known. But as soon as I kind of found out um there's a number pyrex do quite a few of glass a top aware containers. Now i'm yet yet to find one that has a glass lid.

Most of them tend to have plastic lid, plastic seals. But i'm going to guess, yeah, i'm going to guess that the food is the food is actually touching the glass part, which is the bottom, the main bottom bed. You can go on amazon and get these typically, I think you want to get a two litter or above one leader sounds like a turn of food, but when you actually look at the size of a piece of top way, that's only a litter.

It's not actually that big. So go two leaders are above and, you know, just replaced right now. Get rid of the top of where? Get rid of whatever you're doing. An pyrex or some of the company will make some really great glass ball. I'm gonna guess you're okay .

with glass glasses all right above the best I love.

Are there any types of plastic that are worse or Better for us? Let's say that somebody can avoid uh, I due to they don't have a farmers market and uh, they are battling against budget restrictions oh whatever might be um is that something that we can look for? When are looking at the the plastics of the foods and and the things and stuff? Is that veteran worse?

And how do we work that out? So um silicon products are resemble plastic and they are safer. They are not I understand for my packaging friends, they are not ideal, but they're certainly Better then they are not to contain value. They're not going to contain the offense. We didn't talk much about this als, but the best finals, B P A, B P F, B P S, B P F, S. And now more and more of them because by the way, when people said, oh, I don't want bpa and the manufacturer said, okay, we're taking IT out but we're not going to tell you that we've put in B P F N, B P S, which do the same thing, by the way. Um so that's that that's that's been going on for quite a while um this thing we call welcome all which is you know just swapping out you know things people don't want with things that are just as bad but as what they don't .

know about yeah they don't .

yet know about them. So anyway um yeah if you can uh silicon is is preferable glass sink I said is perfect. Um so uh china you know any anything that um know pottery uh not lead potty without land um and I I buy a lot of things in glass and then I washed out the juries and I just save them and I have couple of doors for that and I use i've heard do you talking .

i've had you talking before about the number in the triangle on the the recycling thing. What what is that?

I think that's a moving target case. I don't actually um described that anymore myself. I don't um I I believe that recycling is on not going to solve the problem for us. And and the purpose of those numbers is to get you to recycle, to buy recycle ball and you know to increase recycling. But the problem is that um if you have a chemical that's harmful to start with and when you recycle, IT is still harmful. So i'm not i'm not I you know I i've moved my emphasis from recycling to try to get these things out at the beginning, you know so we don't have to keep exposing ourselves.

Yeah alright. So uh, ten, i'm just thinking about some of the other places that people might consume stuff from, presumably a plastic bottles of water. Not good.

Much Better to get bottled water, bottled water from glass. What about those in the very large cooler, like water cooler in the office type things? Is that the same?

Many of them are plastic.

right? Yeah uh, but any plastic that is basically does, if it's plastic, assumed that is bad.

right? That would be right.

So proven yeah okay um yeah .

by the way, i'm can I just say that there is our ways to treat water? Um it's not just the container now we're worrying about, it's also the water itself. So i'm sure have you heard of these micro nano plastics .

in my haven? Proven .

okay. Um so this is a kind of a new development in the field and people are um realizing that the breakdown products of recycled products and and h disposed of plastic products uh are not actually leaving us. They're reentering in various forms. So they're reentering, for example, um in our water and in our air and they've now been found alarmingly in many cells in the body um and the the scarier thing about this is they're very, very tiny um and they have two possible adverse effect.

This is just the in the research stage now, so Green salt, but there um there have a physical presence that can be harmful, like a pestis species is harmful because primarily as a physical presence and they have a chemical presence and they can um Carry with them not only the chemicals from which they were produced but other chemicals they pick up along the way. So you know keep your eyes out for a research on and maybe sometime no more and i'll come back and talk you about IT. But um I would say this is the for the last couple of years, this is the most important new development in this field that these chemicals that are put out there, you know in the plastics that we think we've gotten rid of, they're here there's back you know it's like that yeah I know that you know yeah ah so my .

you can tell me whether or not my solution actually works for this for years for over a decade. And I would only drink water from A A brita filter, you know like a classic desk top sale filter and then kind of got red pilled about that doesn't IT may get rid of something, but it's not getting rid of really any of the things you wanted to get rid of. I'm now using a four stage reverse mosses filtration system. In your experience, if it's of high quality, how good is that getting rid of what .

we need to yeah I would say I would look at what it's made of, what is the components are made of and where is their plastic and the device um because obviously you prefer not to pass the water through plastic. Um I want mention our alternative, which is what I happened to you, which is a desk top or a table top distilling. So we actually distill our water is very simple.

It's free. You don't have to change any filters. You don't have to, you know, you just put the water IT boils IT steam and steam comes up and then IT condenses and IT comes down into a glass container and exit. So there are alternatives are always good. Installation is good, filtration is complicated um in part because the filters what's in the filters and you have to change them and you have to pay for them so yeah yeah .

yeah that's two. The brand that I use is uh acquittal um the great I do need to look at what pipes are internal to the system but I certainly that the current that IT fells that the front is glass um and my solution is I have this steel still shaker and I just feel like five of those and they live in the fridge of the door. So I always have water going from uh, four stage.

The other big one that I think it's sometime to sold out sometimes isn't called a burkey. So this is A A charcoal filter, like a multi level charcoal filter thing, and the whole thing is made of steel um so in terms of in terms of plastic, I think it's made of I really hope that the spouse at the front isn't a plastic spout um but I can't remember and I don't own one, but I I lost my friends about a bunch of my friends. I got those.

So those are the two that I know, at least from my experience on what my friends are talking about, burkey and h acquire. Those are the two um for water and thinking about know everyone thinking about how can I get more a hydration? I know that water is really important for me and I need to say hydrated.

But you know there is a world in which you increase your hydration at the cost of increasing the amount of felts and microplate tics and B P A and stuff to you. Um you're being exposed to. One of my friends lives in dubai and I went into his fridge in is health conscious IT was just bottles and bottles and bottles of everyone you think, high quality water held in plastic bottle.

So like I I really wanted I was going to buy in one of those things, but I don't think that they shipped. So um okay, one thing one of the most interesting things that I learned from you is these chemicals impact behavior. So the way the children play, the way that they boys and girls l to speak and stuff like that, can you explain what the effects .

are that sure. Um so just as the genitals need hormones to develop and to different shade between males and females, they're different. That is also two of the brain and um this is kind of a controversial topic in some political circles that people don't like to say that the brain is sexually geographic, but it's there's no question .

you can see this is a safe space for you here. so.

Um and um so the changes uh in the brain are influences by test after um just as the generals are and not quite the same time. It's later in it's also in pregnant y but it's later privacy. okay. So um there's a lot of things you can see on mr. Ize, but what you know can see those differences between males and females in different parts to bring um I think you're were referring, by the way, as you've read my book right countdown is on how you know yes. So I want to put an apply for counter maybe you but um yes um in counter this is one of things we discuss, but it's not the main focus because the book is largely focused on reproductive function.

But I have A A color league had a colleague um who said china, the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body and um it's true that the brain is influenced by sex hormones just as the generals are so um if you're going to mess with the astronaut t extra giant chess or you're going to mess with with the brain and specific thing that we looked at was language development. And so yeah so how do males and females different? One way they differ is that and this is going to sound very, you know, though we people that all would like this again politically, but females have Better earlier language development and they they know if you have a child, you know you you see you know how quickly they acquire words and and um and men on the other hand have a Better special ability that's the joke about the, you know a woman will never ask.

We'll never find a way out you know box um i'm like that I always lose my way but um men are much Better specially so so we we found in our study we asked four year olds um the mothers of four old how many words the child knew or could understand. We did IT and our study and also with the colleague in sweden and we found that the salt levels were related to the number of words the child who were understood the age for that particularly in female s IT wasn't much in males but in females IT was pretty marked. Um the other study that you are referring, I think, is to the play behavior and this is even more controversial because um it's based on the assumption that the behavior of children in play and in their daily activities is sexually domestic and that um you can ask a mother, how often does your child play with guns or play with cars or play with t sets or play dresses or play with dogs? Well, first of all, they did this with monkeys and they showed that the monkeys made the same choices as human children.

A male monkey will go for the car and with a car, and the female monkey will. And IT turns out, in an our steady, when we asked the mother about the play behavior of the child and rank their answers as male and female, the the male typical behavior was less male typical in men, boys who were exposed to sales. So that's for what that is. It's it's an suggestion, I would say that exposure to these chemicals in pregnant y during pregNancy, because IT all happens in pregnant y um are going to affect the mass canalized of the brain.

Could this change gender identity?

Hi, I knew you're going to ask. That's the sixty four thousand million question is yeah so there's some indication that IT could, but I wouldn't say we know at all they answered to that question. But here is two things. Um if you look at so I have to tell you about twins, okay, so if you have, i'll start with rats. They're not twins, us like ten of them in the uh 的。 So the rat gets so infants of male rat between two females, he's slightly less masculine ied at birth and that's true of his agd two, by the way and the female between two males is somewhat mechanized .

OK uterus environment, the whether bleeding between each other that's called .

the the um in neutral opposition effect and has been known for a long time. What about humans? Um well IT turns out that when uh if you the study look at twins in finland and found that um female female twins were more likely to get married and had more children than male female twins.

So they were maybe a little less feminised if they had a male coaching. okay. Now i'm gonna turn to your question.

IT turns out that if you look at twins, and this is a very nice and pretty recent, you look at twins, the twins that have a partner, co twin of the opposite sex are more likely to be gender. This fork. So they're getting an influence. They're getting some influence from their coach in so how .

has this been done with adoptive twins? And like a paloma as style, how do you know that this isn't just sisters growing up with brothers, brothers in printing behaviourally social rolle theory .

types stuff social learning theory I not from that study but the um the brains you can look in in M R at the brains of the male and female and you see um that reflect there.

I don't have so less female typical brain development in the female that has the right yeah understood this a really great I I brought this up a couple of weeks ago on a podcast.

There's a really great um bit of data around M R I scans of ten old are boys on goals and the computer can predict with ninety percent whether it's a male or female just based on the brain scan, but that almost the same uh level of accuracy that humans have when looking at the face of another human. So if you cut my face out and showed IT to someone, you'd it's around about night. It's a tiny little bit higher.

And so your ability to, I know what a manual woman is. Well, so does the M. R.

I. machine. And it's around about as accurate as you are. But even in usual, i've been over the David puts.

He did a phony al bunch PS a work on this, David gerry as well. If he did a turn of great stuff on this. In mutual brain scans of developing fetuses, they show sex differences.

I think three months old, three months, four months, five months, you can start to see that. You know, you're a minus six months s year old. This isn't anything .

to do socialization. That's because, Chris, that the time in your life, that yourselves are most rapidly dividing and forming organs is then it's all happening then you know in uo. But I mean IT IT changes like generals are very early and brain is later.

But it's that that's a sensitive period. You asked me before about sensitive periods and I wanted just mention some other um so there's a inua period. Of course, when we talking about that a lot, there is a period right after birth called the mini puberty, and it's the first six months of life.

And there's been some work showing that, that period is very sensitive to environmental insults as well. And then there's puberty, which is another period you want to look for the period of rapid cell division, that that is what you so puberty um and then for women in primacy themselves when they're pregnant. And then for mental pose, there's a lot of changes of mental pose.

So in yes.

we're talking .

about many is what is happening to the relationship between female and male age and reproductive success or fatalities in the modern world.

I it's very hard to say because so much of IT is choice now um right um so um women couples are postponing having children and so there the the natural default is um that women and men repeat up to function decreases with time but women's much more dramatically of course at menopause and men just declined very, very, very slowly until there they're death. So um if you push women particularly into the period of lower fertility, natural fertility, there you're going to have that tilly, you know either through because they are going to school or because they're in the workforce or because they want to do something else for a while, you know that's going to do so. I don't know how to separate that from the biological changes and yeah .

I understand I guess uh, maybe one of the things you could look at would be at what age to people people start using um fatlings treatments mosson's. Uh you know there should be a um volume that should just be A A number of people. And if there are more thirty roads or there are more thirty five year roads going in to use I, B, F or or whatever, that would be an interesting place to stop. But again, you know.

it's kind of .

circumstantial.

But but I promise you something and I want to come back to IT because we talked about fertility decline worldwind and I told you every country was declining and I now I want to tell you the exception and and that israel and the reason is fertility includes um artificial you know a production birth is just birth, doesn't say how they got there and in israel uh people are guarantee two children by if they needed by artificial R A R G artists reproduction technology and and their their fertility is not declined um so you know that's pretty dramatic um every other country um and and the other thing is that the use of assisted rapid of technologies has been increasing. I can't give you numbers on that right now, but IT definitely has been.

I have a friend who is within the next two years the company is already up and running, allow its dock at the moment I have a friend who is doing uh embryo selection for a variety of traits so you can go in with your um harvest of ten fatalist eggs and they can give you apologizing risk score for externalizing behavior for autism uh for I Q for a number of other things. obvious.

Ly, it's not a perfect science, but it's pretty predictive according to him uh and not already happening. I mean that that just straight up is happening now i'm sure that you've learned about iv g as well, which is sort of the next stage beyond ibf where you don't necessarily you know is restricted by harvest. You not is restricted by a lot of different things. Um how well actually .

even .

before that, let's let's forget the the new file link technologies coming down the park. What do you think the future of fatalities has in store for humanity kind of generally at the moment? What what's your prediction?

I would say the most I will first, my first prediction is that we're going to rely on IT more and more whatever a format is. We're going to rely on our facial reconnection more and more because of the decline in spur account and fertility. I don't think there's any way around IT um but the technologies are rapidly, as you say, rapidly to increasing.

And the one that so in treated me and wondering what's going to happen with this politically and otherwise is the production of egg and sperm from stem cells. Have you heard about this? I that I V G, yeah, okay, right. okay. I didn't have not call, sorry. Yeah.

that's I F and I I V G is the poor, important stem cells? Um yeah. I mean, this is .

some disturbia .

if you wanted to, some distortion future where you have basically a million tests, you babies artificial woods um and you you just go to town them and pretty sure you you can even do from skin cells and stuff like that.

You can 有有 a woman .

a woman produces one egg per twenty eight days， are how many trillion skin cells other on my ua ARM?

Yeah yeah. So there is obviously a lot of scary, scary oes here and a lot of hopeful scenario and um politically particularly now, what's the ruling of the about a supreme court we have you you know how to talk about right? It's it's going to be even more complicated um and um I don't know where this is going, I mean but this is this is definitely what's happening right now. And and part of the reason that is getting increasingly difficult to people, for people to make kids the old fashion way that's driving this desire for new technologies, right?

Don't don't forget this, a decreasing dive desire for people to do the action that causes children to come about the old fashioned way as well. You know, we can go even further upstream than the difficulty of the mechanism with just the desire is is is is also being yeah it's um it's fascinating. It's what a time to be alive you know to be studying this stuff.

It's just endlessly to me this whole IT is a poc aleph, right and I am not saying i'm glad that it's happening in some ways, so IT just endless. The interesting to me what what's going on socially, environmentally, psychologically, physically, moni, everything, how how can we you know, but combat this chAllenge? It's A A, A big problem.

And if we don't fix IT IT, it's not good. And you know for the people that say, well, there's too many people on the planet know the rest of IT like your wish is already going to happen, you're going to see population decline within maybe even within our lifetime. We back end of the sort of two thousands, you are definitely going to see a start today.

And then I could be precipitous, but he's the other thing. And this is like my my super hard core red pill, which is for the anti natalist subcultures that really don't want humans to destroy the planet. And and and you know, there's too many people on here in any case.

And so and so for a lot of people's ideologies, especially the political affiliation, ation is heavily genetically predisposed. It's not predetermined, but IT is predisposed. If you are someone that wants to make a change in the world, the change that you're talking about will be washed aside by other groups that have lots of children because those children are likely to have lots of children.

So a hundred years time maybe it's just its moments and it's uh, the israel and it's, uh like whoever else is I didn't like who have whoever else is something blue on people uh and you know you know that's the culture. That's the culture that the future will inherent because those are the only ones that have got positive both rights. And yeah another friend.

He is the next level of the spicy red pill, which is a friend said to me, he thinks that this a fat lace bottle neck is good because it's basically calling stupid, anti human, anti natalist cultures through this genetic predisposition to ideology. And that coming out on the other side, basic, it's the same argument I think thus all made IT about how um the clergy is good because IT screens fanatics is amount of the gene pool um the people that you know super crazy. I like what I mean that that wasn't me that was a friend that remain was.

But look, Chris, Chris, you have children.

No, not yet. But I can't wait .

to become a so if there's other couples that can't wait, become parents and their opportunity for achieving that is taken away, I believe that they're been deprived of a basic human right. I think that is a right of people to have a child if and when they want IT not am not saying anything about they should want IT, but if they want IT, when you know, they should be able to. And to the extent that products.

In that plastics and products and you know ten lightness and food containers are taking away this option. Um is is terrible to me. It's it's it's a it's unfair. It's unfair.

And and I and I should add, by the way, that that if you have money and education, you have a much Better chance of avoiding losing that option, right? Because if you're for you're working two jobs and you don't live near farmers market or a grocery store that has fresh your extra les and you know and you don't know to go on the web and look for alternative, you know alternative, say, for alternatives, you you can do that. You can take care yourself that way you're ever to be more likely not I have a bed, have a child. And so it's it's not an equal opportunity for everybody to be deprived of every, every child, right? So this is home social issue here, too.

Yeah, that absolutely is. It's like I say, just want a time to be alive and to be thinking about problems instead of grappling socially with what's going on that i'm one of the things i'm really onna leave this conversation with is just how much of this is downstream from reduced libido that sounds like such a basic bitch solution and to all of the questions that we're asking.

But if people just want to have less sex, all of the things that the car after that, the the desire relationships, the desire to get out of the house, the desire to leave the house, to leave the screen behind, because i'm just, I just want got to find someone, uh, yeah, it's it's a meeting look. Uh, your work is is, is really fascinating and it's the synthesis of a lot of different pet interest that i've got. Why should people go? They want to find out more than the book, so why should they go to check out more of the stuff .

that you so you can go to show us, want to come and you can see, you know, lots of things I said and then you can go to amazon or some other dealer book dealer and order countdown um by the way, it's important that you put in two words, count down because countdown one word is something else another book so calm down um yeah that's that's what I recommend and um if this stuff bothers you, this the barman of our lives by these chemicals um I suggest you go to environmental health sciences and see what you can do about IT that's a crude by work with and I think they're doing wonderful work to help turn this around.

Helier doctor, china is one. Ladies and gentleman, china. I really appreciate you.

Thank you, Chris. I had A A lot of fun. thanks. fine.