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Noelle King, have you been on the internet lately? Yes. Have you heard like, you know, Kamala mashed up with Britney? You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? Have you heard Kamala mashed up with Beyonce? Yes. America, America has a coconut tree. And I guess my last question is, have you heard Kamala mashed up with my personal fave, Charlie XCX? Coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut, coconut.
Okay. On the show today, we're going to ask what the heck's going on and also figure out if any of this means anything for this campaign. But you're going to do something, too. What are you going to do? All right. Vice President Harris has got a lot of attention. Coconut, coconut, coconut. But what should she do with it to help her campaign? We're going to ask. There you go. Can I explain? This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify.
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Hey, I'm Sean Ely. For more than 70 years, people from all political backgrounds have been using the word Orwellian to mean whatever they want it to mean.
But what did George Orwell actually stand for? Orwell was not just an advocate for free speech, even though he was that, but he was an advocate for truth in speech. He's someone who argues that you should be able to say that two plus two equals four. We'll meet the real George Orwell, a man who was prescient and flawed, this week on The Gray Area. I'm Claudia Amaya.
Today Explained here with Charlie Worzel, staff writer at The Atlantic Magazine. Charlie, I don't usually open interviews this way, but can I ask how online you are? Wow, what a loaded question.
It's going to be important, I promise. There are ebbs and flows to my onlineness, for sure. But as we get into the, you know, last stretch of a presidential election cycle, my onlineness ramps up to weapons-grade levels of onlineness, right? I'm jacked into the matrix right now. So, with that all established, as someone who is weapons-grade online, how would you describe...
Vice President Kamala Harris's presence on the Internet right now. Yeah, July has been a renaissance for the vice president's Internet presence is how I would put it. Out there right now on the Internet, it's kind of been blanketed with news
Harris memes. Everything is in context. The coconut tree speech, the normal version of that is everywhere on the internet. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you. Then it's also been super cut and remixed. Dance. Dance.
It's been remixed with dancing from the 2020 campaign to Charlie XCX's Brat album. Coconut, coconut, coconut.
There's a mashup of her laughing and singing "Wheels on the Bus" while the Joker music from "The Dark Knight" plays.
There's a bunch of, you know, like Venn diagrams out there. I love Venn diagrams. It's just something about those three circles and the analysis about where there is the intersection, right? Now people are saying that they are coconut-pilled. It's a little bit unhinged out there, but the general feeling of her online presence is real enthusiasm. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? T-O-C-O-N-T-I
The reason why that coconut tree speech went so viral was because there was this like sort of awkwardness to that, that people on like TikTok loved. So they were doing like lip syncs to it and stuff. And it took on a life of its own, I think, as this like, you know, she's awkward and
But that's relatable and there's something kind of joyful about it. Do we know who's making these memes? Because as you've established, this is on TikTok, but also Twitter and Instagram. It feels like in this moment, at least, and who knows how long it'll last, it's everywhere. It's really organic. Like people are actually having fun with this. People are actually enjoying, you know,
getting involved in this presidential race. And I think what's important about that is I watched, you know, the four days of the RNC last week. And one thing that was very clear to me was that Republicans in their own way were having a lot of fun. What up, America? What up, America?
If you're ready for President Trump to take the stage, I need everybody to stand up! Like, they felt this real enthusiasm, you know, coming off of Trump literally dodging a bullet, getting this iconic image. Fight!
And Hulk Hogan comes on stage and he rips his shirt off. I thought to myself, man, when you contrast that with what's happening with the Democrats, this idea that this election is only a battle for the soul of democracy, this trudge to the polls to make sure to defend, I
I think that kind of negative motivation is motivating. It is really true that this election has incredible stakes. But at the same time, you do have to give people something to latch on to that isn't just, you know, fomenting a sense of dread. And I think this is what is going on and why the energy behind these Harris memes is so real. Okay, so the vibes are definitely good for Vice President Harris and the Democratic Party. But do we know if this...
you know, just flood of memes that are definitely positive and favorable does anything for donations or, you know, God forbid votes. I think it's, it's a real fool's errand to, you know, take a look at, at a sort of a random, you know, zoomer meme and go like, ah, there we go. We got Iowa, right. Or whatever, you know, like, oh, Michigan, it's, it's, you know, it's going to fall. Um,
I do think, though, what we've seen over the past few days is that the Harris campaign has raised record-setting amounts of small donations. The enthusiasm behind her internet presence can help lead to that. What we have seen since Biden stepped down is the fact that style really does matter, right? And that campaigning really does matter. And that vibes really do matter. And that excitement and enthusiasm in whatever way really, really, really matters. And
You know, that will probably fade over time, but I do think that the bumps are meaningful and also show that there's something they can work with here. She doesn't seem to be overly leaning into it. She didn't come out on Monday and say, like, it's so great to be a brat this summer or anything like that, but, you know...
Harris HQ or whatever, the Twitter account that seems to be the, you know, central gathering place for the campaign online is, you know, their banner is now Brat Green. When politicians or corporations try to co-opt a meme, that's usually, you know, the first step forward.
towards its death. How does the Harris campaign not blow the mementum? - It's like walking a very fine line right now, is how I feel. And with every day that we go further, the line gets thinner and you're tiptoeing. - Charlie XCX posted, "Kamala is brat." Kamala's campaign was pretty excited about it, but there appeared to be some confusion over what that exactly means. - Brat.
"You're just that girl who is a little messy and likes to party and maybe says some dumb things sometimes." So it's the idea that we're all kind of brat and Vice President Harris is brat? I saw some people, some younger people online express this sentiment, which is basically that there's a group of people who are
Right.
And I think a lot of those people are just excited about change, right? And this idea that the system is in a way listening, right? People express their frustration with Biden and the choice of this election. And lo and behold, the system gave them a different option. There's this feeling of positive momentum. And I think that is the type of thing that they need to lean into and to do authentically, like show that Harris is
through the way she speaks, the way that she tries to relate to people, that it's this rigid party system maybe coming out of this rut and not this idea of we're trying to make fetch happen by forcing this meme down your throat. I think that is just...
that's kind of a dangerous play and could alienate some of the people that are really excited right now. We're just in early days here, but it's interesting to think about Kamala Harris contra Donald Trump because right now, despite the former president getting shot in the head, she owns the entire conversation and he's kind of quiet. He's kind of trying to make fun of her laugh when her laugh is endearing her to Trump.
A fair chunk of this country. I call her laughing, Kamala. You ever watch her laugh? She's crazy. Do you think it's killing him?
Probably, yes. I mean, there's like some more like structural elements. The entire Trump campaign was constructed around this idea of running against Joe Biden and painting him as the old, frail, unfit for office candidate, right? That's not the opponent anymore. And the opponent is someone who is much younger, who makes Donald Trump look like the old guy now. That's like a formidable...
issue for them and a huge strength of her campaign. In relation to Kamala Harris, he looks like a guy who doesn't have a lot of mobility, you know, kind of struggling to get out of the golf cart, kind of huffing and puffing. And so there's this, you know, real change in the race, not just in terms of
you know, the comparison there, but also in terms of attention. She is able, at least right now, to take that away. And I think what we've seen historically is that Donald Trump doesn't handle that well and reacts usually by lashing out. Now come here, ah, ah, ah, ah. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
That was Charlie Warzel. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic. His piece over there about this business is called Trump vs. the Coconut Pilled. Noelle, what did you make of Mamala's Mimala's? I would love it if you never said Mimala's ever again.
I love to them. How about this? Would you like to hear a Democratic strategist and friend of the vice president argue that she needs to get away from the memes as far away as possible? Friend of the vice president? Count me in. Coming up, today's Explained.
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So what we're going to explain comes from Indeed. You know, when you lose your keys and then you spend hours tearing apart your place looking for them and then the second you give up, you realize they were in your pocket the whole time. Does that happen to you a lot? I'm so sorry if it does. Sometimes when you're caught up in a back
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Hey Today Explained listeners, Sue Bird here. And I'm Megan Rapinoe. Women's sports are reaching new heights these days, and there's so much to talk about and so much to explain. You mean, like, why do female athletes make less money on average than male athletes?
Great question. So, Sue and I are launching a podcast where we're going to deep dive into all things sports, and then some. We're calling it A Touch More. Because women's sports is everything. Pop culture, economics, politics, you name it. And there's no better folks than us to talk about what happens on the court or on the field.
and everywhere else too. And we're going to share a little bit about our lives together as well. Not just the cool stuff like Met Galas and All-Star Games, but our day-to-day lives as well. You say that like our day-to-day lives aren't glamorous. True. Whether it's breaking down the biggest games or discussing the latest headlines, we'll be bringing a touch more insight into the world of sports and beyond. Follow A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday.
I came here to tell you that you're a meme, ma'am. I'm a meme, ma'am? What are you talking about? Speak English, boy. A meme. An internet phenomenon. Oh, okay. It's Today Explained. Sean's back on his phone looking for more memes. I'm Noelle King. Angela Rye is co-host of Native Land Pod. She's an attorney. She's a political strategist. And she knows the vice president well. Angela joined us at South by Southwest this year, you may remember, for a look at Black voters and Donald Trump. All right, Angela, you understand influencer culture. Which
Which meme should Vice President Harris lean into? We get the brat meme, the coconut meme, the cop meme among people who are not young and very online. You know, from my vantage point, I think the best thing that Vice President Harris could do is
as she runs is to do a complete 180 from meme culture. We are living in a day and age where people, I think, are having a hard time deciphering fact from fiction. They're having a hard time figuring out what is real and what's not. And when the reality show credits roll for America,
I don't wanna be there, you know, right? I don't wanna be a part of that. I think that what has to happen is this show needs to just end here. So instead of trying to meme her or to make her a t-shirt or to make her a motto or to make her a slogan,
I think we just let Kamala be Kamala. And I don't think that adds to her detriment. I actually think it's greatly to her benefit. OK, so one of the things that, you know, we hear about Kamala, especially since she became vice president, is that she's kind of unknowable. You don't seem to agree with that. Give me a few lines on who you think the vice president is and who she should be presenting to the American people.
Yeah, I think relatively unknown and unknowable are a little different. You know, I would just phrase that a little differently. I think that she has tried to be deferential to the president of the United States so as to not outshine, so as to not, you know, divert when they disagree on policy positions.
And I think what we can expect from Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket is a more relaxed, approachable, the person that we all know and love. She is a friend to me. She's like a big sister to me. And she's someone who, you know, gives the best advice, solicited or unsolicited. She's someone who sees you going through something and is going to pick up the phone and ask you how you're doing and what she can do to help.
She's discerning. She's intuitive. She kind of always knows the right thing to do. And I think when she now has that spaciousness to lean into her own intuition and her discernment about what's right to do, you get things like her saying, actually, I'm not going to preside over that joint session for Netanyahu.
Vice President Kamala Harris skipped the prime minister's address today, speaking instead at a sorority conference in Indiana. And I think that that is what our folks need to hear. Our folks meaning all of the American people, people of different policy, like ideas, different opinions, knowing that she's going to lean into her convictions is one of the most important things that we need right now when you're on the opposite side of someone who actually
has demonstrated a very treacherous relationship with the truth. It sounds like you are not at all surprised to see the way she has turned it on over the last 72 hours. I think there's been some shock in the media, like, oh my God, she was great in Milwaukee. We are not going back. People just started chanting along with her.
What I hear you saying is, no, I knew that was there. It's always been there. And the thing that I think that as a black woman, I too know what it's like to be underestimated. You know, when people are like, oh my God, you sounded so brilliant. Well, what did you think I was going to sound like? You know, she is someone who has won multiple elections, statewide elected twice. Like she knows what it is like to win and she don't like to lose. Right.
All right. I want to ask you about some specific issues. So we know that the Trump campaign is going to attack Kamala Harris about the border. President Biden tasked her with addressing the root causes of migration from Central America. And the attack line is going to be Kamala threw open our borders and allowed 20 million illegal aliens to stampede into our country from all over the world.
Americans are very unhappy about what they see as too much immigration. What is the message she should be presenting to voters about the border and her role there right now? I think she has to be honest in just saying that immigration is one of the most complex policy issues this country's seen. It's been that way for many years. It's one of those moments where she has to speak from her conscience. I know she doesn't want kids in concentration camps at the border like they were under Donald Trump.
So what we know is what's happened hasn't worked. Some of what President Biden offered up, I thought was too conservative and I also thought was inhumane. Hopefully she dials back from that. I believe she will. And bringing a lot of different partners to the table, CBP, ICE, and also some of the groups that represent migrants crossing the border, seeking asylum, seeking a better life. What are the ways to ensure that people can have their
their day in America, get here, you know, not necessarily cut folks who have been waiting in line, but also make sure that they can escape whatever it is they're trying to escape. Let me ask you about her time as a prosecutor. So the attack line, one attack line from Republicans we know will be she's soft on crime. Keep in mind, she supported the Minnesota Freedom Act.
fund. That was a fund that raised $41 million and literally put criminals back out on the streets. How does she combat a campaign that is going to be very interested in presenting her as soft on crime based on some things that she said during the 2020 campaign? Yeah, I think that this is one of those places where it could be an easy one-liner. She is running against a
indicted criminal and she's not going to be soft on Donald Trump. So what I think she should say in that moment is like, oh, you think I'm soft on crime? Let me show you how I'm going to treat this criminal. Watch me work. I took on perpetrators of all kinds. Predators who abused women. Fraudsters who ripped off consumers. Cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain.
So hear me when I say I know Donald Trump's type. You know that from the left, there will also be an attack line, which is that Kamala Harris as a prosecutor over-incarcerated black and brown men in California. Do you think this is a problem for the vice president, particularly among black men who the polls have shown us this year have an increased interest, some have an increased interest in Donald Trump?
I think that, again, the interest in Donald Trump is overstated. I don't know who these pollsters are talking to. I would actually like for them to start to pull some of the actual human beings. I think that a lot of that was hyperbolic. I think, Noel, we talked about it during South Byte.
You know, I just I don't think that's a real thing. What I do think is real is there has been a lot of misinformation about Kamala Harris's record as a prosecutor in in the Bay Area. And some of the things that have been said about her locking folks up for marijuana are simply not true.
So what I would encourage the listeners to do is to go for it and look at what her actual record was. She was not soft on crime. She also was not tough on crime. She was fair on crime. You've seen the same stories I've seen over the past 72 hours where you will have a reporter ask Black voters, how do you feel about this? This is historic, right?
And you will have a response that says, but I just feel like is America ready for a woman and also a black woman? So that's what scares me. What do you think about these kinds of statements? Is this a real problem for Kamala Harris?
I think that we have to stop placing Black people in one Black box. Like, this is what Black voters think. There are Black voters who got on a call on Sunday, went with Black women, and raised over a million dollars for Kamala in 45 minutes. 44,000 Black women on the Zoom call and another 50,000 in Clubhouse.
Almost 100,000 black women. The next day, black men raised over a million dollars for Kamala Harris in three hours.
And there were thousands of them, I think over 50,000 Black men on that call. Today, there is a gay and queer Kamala Harris call. There's a white woman for Kamala call. So when we talk about Black voters and the apathy and the fear, I think what's legit, Noelle, honestly, is there's a little thing inside you that asks the question, is the country ready for this? And that same question came up when Barack Obama was running. Right?
Right. And that same question came up when Joe Biden selected Kamala Harris as his VP. And that same question came up when he decided he was going to nominate Kassonji Brown Jackson as the first black woman Supreme Court justice. There is not a time where that question doesn't come up. And for many of us who've experienced that ourselves, when we were a first somewhere, whether we were the first young person or the first person on a board or whatever it is, that
question comes up. And the only way to beat back that no, or not ready, or I'm unsure is to press forward. It's just to press forward.
I will tell you, Noelle, from a super spiritual standpoint, I just want to point out that I have been on a five-day cleanse and fast. And this just so happened, I ended it today, this just so happened to all go down during the cleanse and the fast. I just want to shout out the power of the prayers of black women and standing in line with my sisters from that call on Sunday, which was just remarkably moving. So shout out to all the people who fast.
All the people who pray and all the people who know that if we can push through that fear and the worry about what this country might not be ready for, we might just be able to make it a little more ready.
Angela Rye, co-host of Native Land Pod. Sean's back. Sean, you do the credits. Peter Balanon Rosen, Miles Bryan, Amna Alsadi, Laura Bullard, Matthew Collette, Rob Byers, Andrea, Kristen's daughter, Noelle King. Can we say Today Explained together? Yes. Today Explained. Today Explained.