You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

Get ready to play anytime, anywhere with Chumba Casino, where the fun never stops. Whether you love slots, bingo, or solitaire, there's always a new fun game to explore. Dive into hundreds of exciting online social casino games that are all completely free to play. No purchase necessary. If you're looking for some fresh new challenges, at Chumba Casinos, new games drop every week, always keeping the excitement going.

TNC Supply.

♪♪♪

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is released every Friday and brought to you absolutely free. But for ad-free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening.

Let me start by saying this. I know what you're thinking. A polygraph test? Yeah, I know. They're not admissible in court. They've been debated for decades. And depending on who you ask, they're either a breakthrough tool or complete junk science. The truth is somewhere in the middle. A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool. A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question. That's it. I'm not here to convince you of its accuracy.

In fact, anyone out there rolling their eyes right now, I see you. Because honestly, I'm just as dubious as you are. I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail. I take them all with a grain of salt. And that's why the context and the circumstances surrounding what you're about to hear are very important to remember. And please, hear me clearly. John asked for this himself.

He wanted to take this test himself. He wanted us to film it. He wanted you guys to see and to hear it. John wasn't paid to do this. He wants to simply clear his name. And as for me, and the family of Florence Lockpialik, we just want the truth. I'm sure like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this. Surely he was bluffing, but he wasn't. Not one bit. And that in itself already stands for something in my book.

and if we're going to do this polygraph test we have to do it right by the book no shortcuts no pressure just clean data whatever that even means so let's talk facts according to some studies it's claimed that under ideal conditions polygraph tests can be up to 85 to 90 accurate but the national academy of sciences also warns there can be serious flaws and false positives but let's also talk history

False confessions, malicious police tactics, misused results. We've all heard this. There's a dark side of this tool too. So no, this is not a verdict. This isn't science fiction. This is just more information. Data. Take it or leave it. Because when you're trying to figure out if someone's telling the truth, sometimes the best thing is to just look them in the eye and ask them.

From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

What I worry about is scientifically what she's going to say is that there needs to be a control situation where if he sees camera equipment, it's going to stress him out more and give more of an opportunity for people to say you got a false positive. So the less that there's any sort of obstruction between him and the polygrapher, the more true the data is going to be. What if you don't even see him at first and he just meets the polygrapher and you only see him after the real test? So if you set it up that way, you get the best possible results because he's not going to see you until after the real test.

My producer Dylan and I have been going back and forth on this for about a week straight. A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction. And the scary part? We won't know which way until it's already too late. What if John fails miserably? Like, really fails? Would he start to unravel in front of us? That's not being dramatic. That's just being real.

What I've learned throughout the years is that when you corner someone who's hiding something, there's truly no telling what they might do next. Especially if they feel they're at the end of their road and maybe have nothing else to lose. At the same time, if he passes, public perception could shift instantly. We might even start second-guessing things ourselves. Now, it wouldn't take away from all the other crimes he's committed, especially those towards women.

which we do have the court documents for. But that's how powerful this moment could be, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the science behind it. Let's come up with what we think are the hard-hitting questions and what could be a resolution to something. We care about the data. We're going to be by the book about that. I don't want to have any sway. I want to set up the scenario that is an authentic result.

we flew in a 20-year polygraph expert from los angeles to portland her name is jessica and she definitely knows her right in absolutely all right all right we had a hotel room set aside for the test and she began unpacking all her gear every cord every sensor

Every pulse. Now I'm just watching. Slowly feeling the gravity sink in. Meanwhile, I keep refreshing my phone, waiting for Oregon John's text. He just landed in Portland too.

and the blood pressure cuff. I've done dozens and dozens of interviews. I've talked to murder suspects, even serial killers. I've walked into some pretty dark places. But this, today, was making me feel a new kind of nervous. Because this wasn't just a conversation. This was a psychological reaction.

In between each question, we have to allow 20 seconds at least for his body to calm down from each question. They're also going to be peppered in with some controlled questions. So you've got relevant questions, then I need to pepper in some controlled questions or known truths. Remember, this is a lie detector. It's not a truth detector. So your body doesn't react to something like if I ask you if your favorite color is red, but it's really blue and you say yes, there's no consequence for that, right?

It only reacts to relevant questions where you might lie like did you rob the bank last night and you say no but you really did it would react to your microscopic changes in your body chemistry. And these will go across this upper and lower chest stomach. And this is the same polygraph that federal and law enforcement agencies use for both their law enforcement officers and suspects.

I'm going to turn this on. I'm not going to leave it running because it will freeze if you leave it running. In terms of the questions, they have to be yes or no, right? Something you can answer with a yes or no, with your mouth only. So you want to have this person sit like a statue for not more than four or five minutes. We're going to pepper in the relevant questions with some controlled questions or known truths so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth.

so that when he's asked a relevant question, we can see his internal reaction. The last time I saw John, I was undercover. I catfished him. And I was about to meet him face to face for the first time as the real me. No masks, no fake names. Everything seemed to be going smoothly. Almost too smoothly. I checked my phone again. John is now in his Uber, eight minutes away.

Some people can control to a certain extent, maybe their breathing or something, but you can't control everything. One way or another, your breathing will react or your blood pressure or the internal sweat that's great to your fingertips. But you have to give the body time to calm down between each question. That's why you're asked controlled questions in between or known truths in between. You don't want to just keep them elevated. That defeats the purpose. You will not get an accurate reading like that.

So four relevant or questions of importance each chart, covered in with the controlled questions or the known truths. ETA, two minutes. I'm about to meet John in the hotel lobby. It's time to put my game face on and finish what I started. And right before I headed down, Jessica had one last question for me. You want to administer the questions or me? By the book. I would like you to. Okay.

Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways and your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango, Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too with free shipping and free returns. In-store order pickup and more. Shop today in stores online at nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

Memorial Day savings are here at the Home Depot. So take your kitchen to the next level with up to 35% off, plus up to an extra $450 off select appliances like LG. Plan your get-togethers with an LG refrigerator you can count on for years to come at the Home Depot. And with the connected ThinQ app, you'll know if the door is left open and when to change the filter. Spend less time worrying this Memorial Day with savings on LG, America's most reliable appliance brand at the Home Depot.

Offer valid May 15th through June 4th. U.S. only. See store or online for details. I meet John in the lobby. He walked in cool, calm,

Cheery almost. Maybe even a little bit cocky. But confidence isn't truth. It's also sometimes a mask people wear when they want to control the room. Probably a lot similar to the one I'm wearing right now. So, this was it. The wires. The questions. The silence. It's strange.

Watching a man walk into a room to be judged by machines. And you start to ask yourself, do I even want the truth? Am I afraid of what it actually might confirm? Then you have the flip side. Two years into an investigation the police gave up on, a missing Alaska native woman, Florence Akpialik, and the person who last saw her alive, as we know it, is about to sit down in the hot seat. There's no turning back now. And so, the test begins.

Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten at Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Ockwoodlock? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Do you know what happened to Florence? No. In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes.

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? Yes. You heard it. There it is. But here's the twist. If you watched this first on Instagram Live last week, you didn't see the whole thing. This was by design for the best interest of all parties here. What you saw and what you just listened to was actually the second polygraph test.

That's because during the first test, we took extreme measures to ensure that John was in the least stressful environment possible. No me, no cameras in his face, no lights, no added pressure. Just John, Jessica, and the polygraph machine. So, let's rewind a bit, back to the first test.

This test happened immediately after me bringing John upstairs. She'll explain everything and I'm just going to let you guys do your thing and take your time. I've actually done voice stress analysis too. Oh, okay.

- Okay, okay. - I'll say thank you again for doing this. - No problem. - And take your time. - Sure. - We'll be out here. - We'll be out here? - I just want, I wanna be, I wanna-- - Okay, that's natural. - I wanna talk to her. - Yeah, that's natural. - You know what I'm saying? - Cool. - I don't wanna be like staring over your shoulder or something, you know what I'm saying? Y'all can both text me if you need me. We'll just be right down the hall. - Let me turn this off. - Bell, I'll leave y'all to it, okay? - Yeah. - Yes.

- All right. - You know, I used to work for the government and stuff. I had to take a couple of leaves and just even get hired. - Yes, if you're a governor of Kauai, you do. - I was a contractor. I worked for the census department. - Oh, okay. Then you're familiar with it. - I actually went to Quantico and got a pro-fiber job. - Oh, wow. - I worked at Guantanamo for three years. My religious beliefs, I help a lot of people that are in bad situations. - Gotcha. - And that's how this situation arose.

And I asked for this. Because I've been being harassed. You know, and people just believe the worst.

I live in a small town in 2000. We have tourists. It's Ketchikan, Alaska. This originally happened in Nome, Alaska, which only has 1,200 people. Therefore, the rumor mill in very small towns. - Yes. - You know, I've been assaulted. I've been run off the road. - Oh, my God. - I have to carry a firearm everywhere I go up there. The police know about it. They've had to respond multiple times. They already did their own investigation.

- And what happened with that one? Were you cleared or? - Well, they can't find anything on me. There's no current case. - Oh. - You know, so known PD, they called them. They don't even really remember who I am even. - All right. Well, are you ready for a polygraph test today? - Oh yeah. - So there's-- - No drugs, no alcohol. I did have a half a drink on the plane yesterday here. - That's okay. - And that was about two. - That's okay. My question would be, are you hydrated with water?

I just drink about two or three of these a day. Holy cow. I'm also a merchant seaman. I uh... Which, that's a lot of background checks. I volunteered for this and he seemed kind of shocked. Cause they kind of... Well that's good. You know, cause they...

I don't know. No, no, no. It was good. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. He's giving me the opportunity to completely clear my head. And that's why I'm here. Well, we'll do the test. We'll do a test without him in here. And then when we're done. So I've been doing this since the 1990s. Oh, wow.

I'm going to ask you a series of questions, and in between each question, we're going to give you, like, 20 seconds. There's four relevant questions I'm going to ask you regarding this case, and then it'll be peppered in with some controlled questions or what we know as known truths, like, is the sky blue, along with a couple of, um...

Questions that are meant to embarrass you like, have you ever sold change out of your parents wallet when you were a little boy or you know something like that. It's just to get a baseline. Correct. So you're very familiar with this. So I'm going to hook you up to the equipment and it's going to be an upper and lower thoracic, which is your breathing, measures your breathing, along with a blood pressure cuff and GSR, which is a galvanized skin response, which we will put on your fingertips.

So you're going to just answer yes or no and you're going to sit like a statue for like four or five minutes at the most. I won't, we'll do that and then after the first chart we can call Payne in and then and don't move so make sure you don't move okay. Like I said you're going to sit like a statue. So are you ready? Yes ma'am. Okay so I'm gonna, you don't need to stand up honey. I'm gonna get this chain around you so come on, going over your head and then lean back a little bit. Okay. And I want it snug but not too tight.

One more and then you can put your arms down. I'm gonna put this on your arm for the blood pressure and then leave this hand here and I will put these on here. So I appreciate you volunteering for this. - Well, it'll help the investigation concentrate on where it should be. - There you go. See, that's good. You're doing another good deed and you can just relax right there, okay? Take a deep breath for me. Are you ready to start the test? - Yes. - Okay. It's today, Sunday.

Yes. Have you ever eaten at McDonald's? Yes. Alright, this is a relevant question. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Ocpeluck? No. Okay. Have you ever flown on an airplane? Yes. Is Florence Ocpeluck alive? Unknown. Do you know how to ride a bike? Yes. In the last year, have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and lied to get out of a ticket? No. Okay.

Do you know what happened to Florence? No. Are there other people involved in her disappearance? Unknown. Did you ever sneak out of the house when you were a little boy? Doesn't matter. It's not a relevant question. You guys are noted best. No. Okay. Okay. That is...

That is the end of our first chart. All right, so that chart was stopped. I'm going to start a new chart. Are you comfortable? You want to drink water or anything? I'll drink a cup of water while we're talking. Okay. All right, got your breathing, got your blood pressure. All right. Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. Got a lot of questions here. Okay. Do you know how to ride a bicycle? Yes.

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Ockley? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes. When you were a teenager, did you ever steal from a grocery store? Yes. Okay. Do you know how to ride a horse? Yes. Okay. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No.

Do you know what happened to Florence? No. Before today, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. All right. We're done with this charge. I'm going to let Payne know. So have you told the truth about everything that you know about Florence? I'll read that on. No, I should ask her. Oh, yes. Jessica sent me a text asking me to come back inside. Oh, God, what is it now?

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely, and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk-free at greenlight.com slash Spotify.

PMS, pregnancy, menopause. Being a woman is a lot. OLLI supports you and yours with expert solutions for every age and life stage. They just launched two new products exclusively at Walmart. Period Hero combats flow, mood swings, and more during PMS. And Balance Perimeno to support hormonal balance, mood, and metabolism during perimenopause. Grab yours at OLLI.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

- What happened was, is I gave her a ride. I met her earlier through my girlfriend. - You got her in bed. - I thought I meant to drink. - Yeah, we have a timer, so we only need 20 to 30 seconds of question to give his body time to settle down and react.

Here came the first monkey wrench. John felt that some of the questions I prepared for him were unfair.

Because in a polygraph test, you must answer yes or no questions only. And I agree with him. Because if he doesn't actually know something, then he couldn't really answer yes or no. So on the fly, right there in the room, I quickly made up two new questions. I showed Jessica. She approved. And then John began asking why we weren't filming this test. I explained it to him that I wanted to give him an opportunity to take this polygraph without all the theatrics. Even

even admitting to him that it'd probably make me nervous too. But I stepped out once more so they could finish the first test. To me, that would feel like nerve-wracking to get cameras out of my face kind of thing. I was kind of actually expecting that. No, no, and I was kind of hoping for it.

So here we go. Round two, I guess. John wants this next one filmed. No problem.

We had to adjust two of the questions. So once they were back set up, I left the room once more to let them finish. But now we at least have two sets of data to compare by the end of all these sessions. He respected that. And I also respected the fact that he wanted the world to see him for his own vindication. I left the room once more to let them finish the test. And once they were done, we planned on filming the next one.

I sat down at this tiny table and positioned myself quietly at the edge, pulled out my iPhone, and just started filming. Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aquiluk? No. Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes. Do you know what happened to Florence? No.

In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? Yes.

You heard this test already in the very beginning of the episode, but it wasn't until 24 hours later, once I got back home, thousands of miles away from here, that I noticed something very odd from the first test he took with Jessica. After all, I wasn't in the room. So this was the first time I had heard any of the audio from it. This is where things start to unravel a bit. Let's go back to that first test, the one where I'm not there. It's just the two of them.

And let's rewind back to that very last question. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No. Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked? Pretty straightforward in my opinion.

His answer the first time, when I was not in the room, was no. Meaning, no, he has not withheld any information regarding Florence to anyone else who's asked. Not the police, anyone, including me. Okay. But what's stranger is that during the second test, the one where I'm there, literally sitting across the table, he has a completely different answer. - Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

Yes. Yes? So, you are withholding information? He was asked the same question twice. And it wasn't a complicated one. First test: No. Second test: Oddly enough when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes. This wasn't a polygraph reading. This wasn't a twitch in the needle. It was a verbal contradiction.

You heard it. Even if I try to play devil's advocate here and come up with a million reasons why he answered the questions differently, the irony behind all of this makes everything different. Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked? That very question is the sole reason John is here in the first place. Because John has swore to me up and down for hours upon hours on the phone that he has, in fact, told me all he knows, which is why he came here today.

to prove to me and anyone else that that's true so what is he holding back anything was it just a word slip up take the polygraph out entirely and what you have is a man giving two completely different answers to the same question within a 20 minute period a question that's tethered to the entire reason he's here today before we packed up i gave john the chance to say well whatever he'd like to on record

to the family, the community, you guys. I want to give you the opportunity just to say why you chose to do this today, your piece, and so people can see that. And whatever you want to add, also want to say thank you for being a man of your word. I, just like you, want to move on through life and keep searching for the truth. Truth is very important to me. It's part of my beliefs and my religion and everything. And the reason...

To be honest, the biggest reason why I wanted to do this was to give my life a little peace. Flo and Flo's family deserves to know that this area here is not, you know, to concentrate, to be able to look at other places. Because as long as suspicion is upon me, it's not going to be looked at in other places or as much.

The question we all want to know, right? But let's talk for a second here. I know how split the audience will be on any polygraph result at all.

If you're someone who firmly believes it's all junk science, or if you're someone who has a lot of faith in this test for whatever reason, or you're somewhere in the middle, I want you to ask yourself right now, will these results do anything for you? Or have you already made up your mind? I told Jessica to hold off on telling anyone, even myself, what the results were until the entire test was over and everyone was out of that building and back in a safe place.

A few hours later, after she had a chance to review the charts, I came back in and asked myself, "And before you hear this, I want you to remember everything I've said about polygraph tests. They're debated amongst the science community, inadmissible in court. It's just a tool. Remember that. Now, what's your reaction going to be?" - You can wait until they get back. - Of course. Yeah, I'll wait so I don't have to repeat it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, I mean, good for him coming in to do it. So, what do we think? So, let me look at the... Let me pull these up so I can accurately, even though I know some off the top of my head. So, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? There were signs of deception. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked on that one? There were signs of deception. And I think he moved on that one, too, so...

i can't say with 100 accuracy because of the movement that he did have you ever had sexual contact with florence definitely fail and the two that were the ones where we had to change that is florence alive he was him hind and he didn't know how to answer it so he didn't want to confirm yes or no and correct and also the one where are there other people involved in her disappearance

He failed questions. Big ones, in fact.

He contradicted himself. He spiked off the charts when asked about having sexual contact with Florence. Which is strange enough considering sex itself isn't a crime unless it was non-consensual. So, I'm gonna let that resonate with you. It is what it is. But next week, I'll have Jessica on the podcast to further explain in detail all this data from the tests. And as for me, a major question still remains.

What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it? What you heard today was real. What it all means, part of that's up to you. Stay tuned next week for another episode of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. And thank you again to John for being a man of your word and making the effort to do this in the first place.

Our investigation into Florence and Joseph isn't over. Don't you guys know me by now? We have even more new information that is going to change everything. I'm looking at it on my computer screen right now. But it's not for clicks, y'all. One step at a time. The truth is what I care about. See you next week.

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsey. The show is written by Payne Lindsey with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey. Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Supervising Producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional Production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik-Glen, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original Music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team.

Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.