Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Last Sunday, we came together with several hundred Up and Vanished listeners at a venue in Atlanta to listen to the two-part season one finale together. We had a great time with everyone, and it was amazing meeting some of you guys face-to-face. Today, we're going to play some audio from our live event.
Welcome, everybody. I'm not paying. I'm not paying, so it's kind of anticlimactic, isn't it? Welcome, everybody, to the live season finale of Up and Vanish. Can we get a little crowd applause? Yes.
Come on. That's amazing. My name is Rob Ricotta. Ricotta like the cheese and lasagna and every Italian dish you love. You're welcome. I feel like this being a live season episode, I should do like an explicit content warning or something like this. You know what I mean? I don't know if you even, you don't know my part in it, but maybe you'll know after this. Okay? This episode of Up and Vanished...
So I'm not paying. It's not as good as paying or Maurice or the other ones, but that is what I do. This has actually been a over two-year journey. I don't know if you guys know that, but as far as the team, we've been doing this for, not that we're crazy pros or anything, but we've been doing this for about two years now, and you're going to get to experience all of them live, which is amazing. Some really great guys here. Thanks so much for coming. Seriously, this is our first stop. Atlanta, obviously, being the home time.
As far as cities, is everybody from around the area? I wouldn't imagine so. What cities? Yell out some cities to me. Conakry. I don't know where that's from. Okay. Macon. Macon, Georgia. Okay. So pretty. Alaska. Oh.
I was like, y'all need to wait until maybe another time to come that's closer to y'all. I mean, bless you, though. No, we're going to get this started. Actually, we're going to show a clip that I promise has never been seen before. And you guys will be the first. Actually, we have some people up there. I'm so sorry. I love y'all up there. Same love down here as up there. Okay, so we're going to show this clip real quick and turn your attention to the screen. Welcome to the live season finale.
The video we showed the audience was a sneak peek of some of the documentary footage I've been shooting throughout my investigation on Tara Grinstead's case. This clip was exclusive to the show, but it will be available soon for everyone else to view. An investigative podcast about the disappearance of an Osceola teacher is set to premiere Monday. Titled Up and Vanished, the story details the findings of Atlanta filmmaker Payne Lindsey as he makes the documentary on Tara Grinstead. My name is James Wilcox.
I'm from Fitzgerald, Georgia. Born and raised in Benio, Conner. I've been living in Fitzgerald since 1945. And before that, I lived out in the country around here. So I've been here all my life. I don't know. I just don't know. Because I don't know what happened. I don't know why it happened. So I won't say. The GBI said that his name, Brian Duke's name, had never appeared on their radar before. And that is not accurate.
I think it's about to flip upside down. A lot of rumors in this case end up being true. You want the truth? Here's the truth. I found out on January the 10th what happened to Tara.
Another week brings another arrest in a case whose trail was cold for nearly a dozen years. A second suspect is now facing charges in the disappearance of Tara Grinstead. You remember Grinstead vanished from her home in Osceola in Irwin County back in 2005. I can tell you things that would make your hair stand on end. I'm going to tell you something now. In 2010, this individual, he drove to Knoxville, Tennessee.
All righty, all righty, all righty.
I hope you guys enjoyed that. Honestly, no one's ever seen that before. I'd like everybody to stand on their feet if they can real quick. I'm going to get you up off your feet. We're not going to do any weird stretches or massage people. We don't do that here. All right, we don't do that here. I honestly would like to introduce you, put a face aside from what's been on the TV screens and that kind of thing. He's a good friend of mine. He is the director, producer of the Up and Vanished show.
Season so far and up and vanish as a brand here. Please welcome to the stage my friend pain Lindsay whoa That's a lot more people than I thought I was gonna be I'm used to like being in my room just like with a microphone in my underwear or something Um, so I wrote this on the way here. I hope that's cool with you guys But for real I want to tell you guys that we've been working on this episode non-stop for the last 72 hours
Literally, the biggest interviews we have in this podcast came in the last 24 hours, which has been absolutely crazy. So just so I make sure I get my facts straight here. A year ago, I could have not imagined being here right now. This is absolutely awesome. Your support is what makes this a reality. Tonight, we're all here to listen to the final episode of Up and Vanished. We're also here to honor Tara Grinstead. I never knew Tara.
During the past two years, I've become very close to a lot of people who did. And it's been a remarkable experience for me. It's a real honor and privilege to have told this story to you guys. It's been very emotional and, you know, it's been fun, it's been scary. It's been everything. And you guys have been along for the ride. It's amazing to think that our own curiosity and fascination with true crime can make something like this happen. And before we play tonight's episode, I want to make one thing clear.
I didn't solve this case. We solved this case, and that's how I feel. Without you guys here tonight, your passion, your devotion, your curiosity, your burning desire to want to know what happened to Tara just like me, that's why this happened. And I firmly believe that, and I'll go to my grave thinking that.
So without further ado, I want to play the first part of the episode. It's going to be two parts for you guys. So once the first one ends, it's not over. It gets even better. So without further ado, let's play this thing. And I look forward to meeting you guys shortly. And I love you guys. I'm from Irwin County. I went to school there. They will definitely protect their own. That's the way these people have always been.
We kicked off part one of the finale to a sold-out crowd at Atlanta's Terminal West. It was jam-packed, with several hundred seated, and standing room only in the back. Alan Morgan never got to go in that orchard, and that came from someone in the Sheriff's Department. When him and Nelson went to search that orchard, Nelson told him there wasn't no need for him to go in, and told him to turn around and go back.
With the help of my grandma, we ended part one on a high note. Then Rob hosted the intermission, playing some Up and Vanish trivia with the audience. That's coming up after the break. This has been going on for ever since I was a teenager. It's nothing new. All right, guys. Let's give it up for grandma, right? How can you not love her? Everyone has a vision in their mind of either their grandmother or like the sweetest woman, but actually she's here tonight.
She's the real MVP here. A couple things to note. Hold up your phone. Everyone has a smartphone, right? Pretty much. If you have Snapchat, we actually have a custom Up and Vanish filter.
Go up on up there. I keep on forgetting, guys. I'm not forgetting you, I promise. But we do have a custom up and vanished filter for you guys as well. I think to the right of stage over here. You guys are welcome during intermission to take a bunch of pictures with that. And Donald, no. He's pretty handsome, though.
But yeah, you guys can take pictures with that. We actually, during intermission, you're welcome to go to the bathroom, grab a drink, food, anything you guys want to do at this time. It's going to be about 10 minutes long, but actually, if you don't mind, we're going to do a little bit of Up and Vanish trivia, if that's all right with you guys.
So I'm going to literally from here, I'm going to try to see from upstairs and then from downstairs as well. As I ask these who puts their hand up first, that's really hard to tell. There we go. Beautiful. I got some lighting there. So you guys are welcome to move around, take some pictures as well. But we're also going to do some trivia during this time, as I said. So, oh, and we have prizes because we're not cheap people. This is not a cheap thing. Could be money, could be liquor. I don't know.
Actually, this is no lie. And Donald just told me this. I actually did not know this. In every one of those bags are grandma's cowboy cookies. What? What? You don't deserve that. You do. You do deserve that. Is everybody enjoying themselves a little bit? Okay, good.
Because I don't get paid a dime for this. No, I'm just playing. I don't even get cookies for this. But we have a lot more to come. Again, Payne, as Payne said, this is two parts. So that was just the first part. Obviously, we have a second part that's just as long, if not longer. So you guys enjoy that. I'm going to be coming up later. And we also, after that, you guys saw a video at the beginning. Is that right? That video you probably couldn't see very well, could you? Because there was daylight and it was really crappy. So...
I witnessed a wide array of emotions in the crowd.
There were tears, there were gasps, and in some of the more lighthearted moments with my grandma, there was even laughing. It was amazing to see so many people from all over so connected and drawn to Tara Grinstead's story. And of course, at the very end of part two, we had to end it off like this. Hello? Hey, Payne. Dr. Godwin here. Hey, what's up, man? You know, I've been thinking. Hello?
We did some really good work on Tara's case. You know, there's another case I had in mind. I've been looking to it for years. Maybe you and I should take a look into it. Okay, so a couple, let's get, yeah, I can't believe, it's weird that it's the end of season one. It really is. It's unbelievable. Okay.
We're going to get a couple initial reactions from you guys. Obviously, it'll just be seconds after we just heard the end of season one. Would anybody be up for getting on the mic kind of as a whole? Some of the, maybe even bingers. Yeah, come here. Well, first off, I'm completely like,
Lived in Fitzgerald about six months after Tara disappeared. And hearing about all the places that come up in the story, oh my gosh, I just feel like I'm about to cry. I know pretty much where every single one of these locations are. And it just makes the story even more surreal to me. And to be honest, this podcast is...
my whole life. I owe my entire future to this podcast. I'm going to college in August for forensic science because of this podcast. I'm happy that this is somewhat coming to a close. I'm happy that Tara is finally getting peace in her family and the people around her. My gosh, I feel emotional. Okay.
Thank you so much. Yeah, let's give her a hand. Seriously, that's amazing. Sometimes, you know, we do this and we don't understand what kind of reach that you can have in somebody's life who's looking towards the future. That's pretty phenomenal, honestly. And as Payne said, there's no way in hell that we would have been able to do this without you guys. And that is the truth. Shortly after the episode ended, Phillip Holloway, Maurice Godwin, and myself took the stage to answer some questions from the audience.
This went on for over an hour, but here's some of the highlights. Please welcome to the stage, obviously, Dr. Maurice Godwin, Mr. Payne Lindsey, and of course, last but not very least at all, Philip Holloway. I'm going to come sit over here, guys. Now, you guys didn't want to be on the mic, but I'm going to ask him a few questions if that's okay. Cool. If that's all right with you guys.
All right. Actually, first one, let's ask a question to Dr. Godwin. If that's okay, sir, we'll start with you. What was your first impression of pain after your... Who made these questions? What is your impression of pain? No, what was your first impression of pain after your initial conversations with him? And did you think his involvement would advance this case you worked on?
Not to the extent that it has happened. I didn't think it would go this far. So I'm surprised as anyone in the audience. And elated too. It was somewhat difficult to contact Payne in the beginning. Every time I called him, he was exercising or in a meeting. I thought the meetings, I didn't think the meetings were true. But...
Finally, I just kept leaving messages. He said his cell phone was just blowing up, blowing it all up. But it worked. And this is the greatest adventure that I've been on. Let's thank Dr. Godwin, please. Let me just say this. Because he put the post on WebSloops and I answered it, solved his tech case.
And don't ever let anybody convince you into different. Let's start again with Mr. Payne over here in the middle. As you can see, he does work out. Yeah, clearly. Look at that body. So big. So muscular. Payne, how is the reaction both nationally and then obviously locally? We had a girl just from Fitzgerald right there. But locally in Osceola changed as the cases progressed.
That's a good one. Well, at first, no one wanted to talk to me at all, which was, I guess I kind of expected that. But then all of a sudden, they all wanted to talk to me. I was like, okay, cool. Let's keep talking. Then one day they said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. Okay, well, I'm not done yet. But no, it's been like this up and down thing. First, it was hard to kind of break the...
break into it and then, you know, then they wanted to talk and then people started realizing, hey, well, so-and-so knew and so-and-so knew and it just became uncomfortable and I became this guy who was, you know, uncovering all this stuff and it's been very interesting to experience that from being, you know, I was doing an interview one time. It was right when Ryan Duke was arrested. There was like a couple of news people out there. I did like probably two
like 10 interviews that day. I don't even know what I said. I haven't watched them yet. But someone drove by and was like, oh, yeah, Payne, we love you. I was like, oh, that's someone over here, one of the guys. And, you know, that kind of went away. And then all of a sudden people were like,
You're talking about my so-and-so and so-and-so. And I think that it's now coming back to a place where people are accepting the fact that the truth hurts. And that was, you know, it is what it is. I didn't choose the story. I just found it and told it. But it's been an interesting experience. Mr. Philip Holloway.
His family can cheer him, that's right. His family, come on now. Shout out. Okay, so for Mr. Philip Holloway, what of all the cases you've done, obviously, and that you've been involved with on either end, what drew you to this case specifically? And then the dual fold question would be how in the heck did you get involved with this? Well, that wasn't our prearranged question. You tricked me. Whose piece of paper is that?
Where'd you get that? I have been doing my own notes. Revision. So, I grew up in South Georgia in Tifton, where Payne's grandmother now lives. She's right there, by the way. She's the front row, guys. And in 2005, I was already in the Atlanta area practicing law, but in 1999, which was the year that Tara won the Miss Tifton crown, I was...
attempting to practice law in Tifton. There's not a lot of crime in that area, so there was sort of a limited group of potential clients, especially people that could support my lifestyle. So eventually I came to the Atlanta area and I became a prosecutor in Cobb County. So I was familiar with this case and I was
I was and still am personally friends with lots of people in the law enforcement community that were involved with this initial investigation. So it was something that was on my personal radar ever since it happened. When the podcast took a turn based on the arrests that were made, it seemed to me that Payne might could benefit from
maybe something that I know about not only the legal system but the local community in that area. After all, I had been a police officer part-time in Osceola back in the early 90s, way before this case happened. And I felt that maybe it would be, it would make sense to reach out to Payne, and I did so over Twitter. And he actually had, as I recall, we followed each other right about the same time. And I sent him a message, and I never really expected to be
a cast member, so to speak, of the podcast. Did he reply? Pardon me? Did he reply to you? Yeah, he did. A month later? I think it was something like, no, it was the same day, actually. He responds to me pretty quick. He said, Philip, I'm working out. I had no meetings that day. No, he...
Well, so he said, you know, I think it was something along the lines of, I think we need to talk. There may be some things that I can help you with. And he goes, absolutely, I agree, too, or words to that effect. I have no idea what I'm doing. Please help me right now. We met not in person. It was just shortly after that. And the rest, as they say, is now in the history books.
It is weird. We all, like, some of us have met for the first, this is actually a fun fact and kind of strange as well. Even though we do have friendship pain tonight, this is the first night we've actually ever met in person. We worked on this. It is. That's a true story. We actually, it was on the couch and there's the strangest thing. And like, it's like seeing an old friend or a good friend or whatever. But we had worked on this at least two years together. So it's almost a surprise in that way as well.
And him being able to let me be a part of it as well, I don't have much to say. But in terms of him being able to kind of put that out to me and the opportunity to do this for the right reasons is why I got involved as well. But we actually want to throw it out to you guys for some questions. And yeah, we're actually going to have Donald down here. He's a pretty handsome guy. He'll bring you the mic. It's a matter of opinion.
Yeah, actually, you know what? The best way to do this, the formal way to do this would be line up, just like in preschool, single file. Who's the first one? Yeah, why don't we come over here? You're very close to it. This is an awesome opportunity to be able to do this. Once it starts, it's all good. So this might be kind of a stupid question, but the guy that you interviewed towards the beginning of part two, the friend of Bo Duke's Ryan Duke who...
like the FBI guy showed up at his door or whatever, he said that the night in question he was in Jacksonville, Florida for the Florida-Georgia game. And the Florida-Georgia game that year was on October 29th, which is actually after Tara had gone missing. So have you guys looked, maybe I'm missing something, but have you...
He was talking about the next weekend because the night in question for the GBI was either the night that Ryan said what he said or the night that they were burning Tara. Well, thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was a pretty easy answer. That makes sense. Yeah, no problem. Thank you.
Hey, hey. Hey. My biggest question is the brother that was interviewed, is that the same brother that allegedly lived with him? It's not, actually. Because that was never clarified. His name was James. The other brother was Stephen. So did you talk to him? I didn't talk to Stephen. No, I did not. He wouldn't talk to me. All right. I tried.
So obviously, you know, I have a lot of personal investment in this, but my question is, do you think some of the information that has come out will raise reasonable doubt? Or do you think the defense is going to take any of this information and really use it to their advantage? I honestly have no idea. I just have this, like,
feeling that I can't shake, that they just do not care what I do. They just don't believe it. They just think that this is not the truth. This is that podcast thing, and the truth is over here. So I don't know. I would just gut feeling to say they're going to try to ignore it as long as they can. But then again, I've been surprised many times in this case. Well, there's stuff, if I can chime in on this. When you talk about proof beyond a reasonable doubt,
That's the highest burden of proof known to our legal system. Think about the O.J. Simpson case. He was found not guilty in the criminal trial, but in the civil trial he was found to be responsible by a preponderance of the evidence. So if, like, you take the scales of justice and you put a feather on one side and it tilts just a little bit, that's enough to carry the day in the civil case. And in a criminal trial, what you have to think about is, you know,
If you have 12 people on a jury, and we all heard some things tonight that may have caught us by surprise, maybe not, but in the back of one juror's head, if there's this little tingling of a doubt that says, you know, the judge told me I can't convict this person unless there's a doubt for which I can attach a reason, and I've got a reason that I can attach to that doubt.
If that happens in a criminal trial against either defendant, at a minimum, it's a hung jury. If the entire jury, if there's a trial, believes that there's a doubt for which a reason can be attached, then that's an acquittal, not guilty. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I have a little bit less serious question, but one that's been nagging at me. Payne, could you just demonstrate for all of us your body language during the phone calls with Brooke? Okay.
So good. Y'all aren't filming, are you? That didn't happen. Right, right. All right. Hey, I want to talk about your decision to end the podcast on essentially a cliffhanger. So, you know, halfway through, halfway through the podcast, it's like, Ryan's arrested. We have our guy.
And now at the end it's kind of like, wait, is he the guy? So I want to know what was your thinking, reasoning going into that. And also I want to know, are you going to slip back into this case when it goes to trial? You know, for Serial Season 1, they did a couple episodes. When the case developed a little more, are you going to do the same thing? The thing is, I find stuff. I don't write the story.
It would actually be easier if I did, but I don't write the story. I find what I find. It's been the weirdest experience because things just have happened in this case with my involvement and everything that's happened. It's just unfolded in this way. And I interviewed Ryan Duke's mom yesterday at one o'clock. That was not like a couple Saturdays ago. That was yesterday. I got back late last night.
And that's how this whole case has been. It's been just in the nick of time, this thing, that thing. I don't know. It's been a weird experience. In the event that there's a trial in this case, I'm absolutely going to cover this case. And we're going to cover it extensively. We're going to find out if these guys are convicted and they're punished. We're going to be there for the whole ride. So we'll do it whenever that is.
So I kind of have two questions, so I can get back in line if you want. Yeah, if you could go ahead and... I can do it. I can do laps. So the first one would be for Professor Goodwin. So when we talked about this, we talked about like kind of Ryan's deterioration of social ability with the timeline, was it...
before or after the accused, what happened? Because if he actually did do the actual actions, his social deterioration could have happened because of just implicit guilt or what he was told. And I was just wondering what your opinion of that would be. Well, I know his ex-girlfriend from 2004
Actually, in 2007, I received several emails from her, and she said that she could not get into really the discussion because she was afraid for her newborn baby and herself. But his deterioration started after the murder. But that doesn't mean that he did it. That just means that he believed he did it.
And then my second follow-up with that is with some links to the drugs that was introduced in this last episode, one of the things that does or could cause dialysis is use of heroin and whatnot. And Ryan's not an older gentleman. He shouldn't have to use dialysis unless he has some kind of issues. Was there any link with...
like hard drugs like heroin or something that with Ryan and then potentially with, I mean, not to speak ill of the dead, but potentially Tara as well. Um, nothing with Tara, but, um, all I know is that Ryan's mom told me that he used cocaine and that was, that was it. And he was an alcoholic. Alcoholic as well. Yeah. Um,
Hey, Payne. I posted a question on the discussion board about a week ago about something that always bothered me about this case. And it was the fact that... And Philip and I had some conversations back and forth about it. But one of the things that...
One of the things that bothered me about this case is that we know that Bo has said she was never in her house and we know that her phone was found in her house.
And we know that she had sent the message, I'm cold, to the former Georgia player. And then we know that Bo has said that his ex-wife would blackmail him about the information that he knew. And her first tweet was, I'm cold.
So, and that was in 2009. And so I guess my question is, A, what do you think about that? And then B, have you been able to try and get in touch with Emily? Have you tried to get in touch with Emily? I guess those are my two questions. What do you think and have you tried to get in touch with Emily? It's ironic. Yeah.
For real, it really is. I've probably had, honestly, a hundred people send me that. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, one of Bo Duke's ex-girlfriends dressed up as a dead... Ex-wife. Ex-wife. Ex-wife. Ex-wife. Dressed up as a murdered beauty queen for Halloween. And...
Then you have the tweet of, I'm cold. I don't know. But Bo would have had to have seen the phone that was found in the house. Here's the bottom line. Here's my consensus on that. Bottom line is, based on all the knowledge, all the information I've received, she knew. So she knew what the hell she was wearing, too. Right.
And he said he was never in the house, and the phone was found in the house. That doesn't mean he was never in the house because he said it. I know. I know that's my point. I know. I agree. Could she have been sending Bo a silent message through the Facebook? That's what I'm talking about. So, therefore, it contradicts what he has said in the fact that, you know. Anyway, have you tried to get in touch with Emily? No.
Honestly, I haven't. I just saw no reason to. I already had enough bad things on Bo. Woohoo! I live there. I'm not from there. I've been in Florida 28 years. Congratulations. I knew Bo's mom, dad, and mother. Don't ask no questions. I'll tell no lies. I've been in the green room for about two hours.
Thank you. So what do you think about everything then? I love you.
Thank you. I appreciate you guys. Let me tell you. Yeah, I'm from the area, but I've been gone 28 years, but I know the people involved, and that's what got me involved in this case. And people from my hometown have sent me death threats. They've sent me, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? And I'm like, because it's wrong. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Over here a while ago at Phillip's Wife,
Bless her sweetheart. He spends more time on sworn and up in Venice when he does with her and his kids I'm like next person, please I'm here to say thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you for thank you for doing what you do and listening. Thank you
First of all, this is awesome, because that's the only person in here more drunk than me. So... He owns the boat. Don't do that. This is Atlanta. Don't do that. We still love you. We do love you. It's true. You're not drunk. You're fine. Nobody said that. I didn't say that at all. No one said that, right? No one said that. No one said that. Didn't happen.
What's up, man? No one said that. My question is for Dr. Godwin. So when you first went to investigate this case, you talked about the night that you spent in the RV and people that scared you and intimidated you. I'm not going to ask you to name names because I know something could come of that later. I'm going to kind of ask you to name names because I know something could come of that later.
Do you now think that someone, were the people who were intimidated you just didn't want you in Osceola or were the people that intimidated you directly connected to this case? They did not want me in Osceola. Okay. So on a scale of one to ten, how connected to this case do you think they were? You mean as far as criminality? Yes. Yes.
You mean the criminology scale? The 1 to 10 criminology scale? It's a thing. It's a thing. Seriously, it's a thing. I checked it earlier. Probably a 3. Okay, fair enough. Alright, it's a 3. It's a 3! It's a 3! I'm afraid I'm going to be a little less entertaining than the previous two questions.
I have a little bit more of an existential question about the podcast looking forward and want to hear what your vision is and your goals are for what these telling of these stories are and how that is going to impact solving these cold cases or even just the criminal justice system in general as we look forward. And what do you think this sort of idea of crowdsourcing and bringing these stories to a broader group of people, what impacts are you hoping to have or do you think have...
been had in this case by bringing this story to a broader audience. Rob, are you taking notes of all these issues? I got them all down. I think it's all about solving it. I mean, that's the whole point. You know,
The point is to solve the damn thing. You're telling it again. It's been heard a thousand times, a decade's worth of time for a lot of people. You're telling it again to make something happen. And about halfway through this thing, I kind of stepped into my shoes, and I got aggressive with it because I was already in. I just...
I didn't know what I was getting into, and then I was already in it. So what do you do? Just not do it really good, or do you just go all out and do something that you haven't done before? So, you know, I'm not scared about it. I want to do it. You know...
It brings joy in my life just seeing the effect it has on everybody. And the fact that it can have a positive result, it's just unbelievable to me. And it's a different kind of experience for me. And even if it only happens one time, I hope it happens every single time. But that's what I'm trying to do every time. I'm one for one. I'm going to do two for two, three for three, four for four. Bring it on. Let's do it. So that's how I feel, honestly. Thank you.
And just to say this with Payne, when he says it happens in real time in terms of even just the call that you just heard he had yesterday or whatever that may be.
The production of this is really secondary to the fact that he will chase this or these guys will chase this first before they put anything kind of down into an audio format or an entertaining format. So I'll be on the phone or something like that. He goes, I can't talk right now. I'm in Osceola. Something's going on right now. We'll get to it later or whatever it might be. So in a meeting in Osceola. Right. At least they answered the phone. Yeah.
It's bad service down there. He answers every one of my calls, Maurice. I don't know. I'm just kidding. I got a new phone recently. He never answers the phone. Switched to business phone. So, I get that you guys can't really say what you think, but... Why not? Insane. Well, we can. Don't you guys think Bo did it and framed Ryan? I think it's a reasonable hypothesis.
Okay, first off, I don't know how y'all deal with all this. We're a bunch of crazy. Hashtag cult life. Wait, hashtag what? Hashtag Doug life. I was like, shit. Okay, so I heard something on a different podcast. I don't know what it was, but somebody said something about in a time of stress, the person returns to a familiar place. Do you think that might have applied to both?
Ryan with what happened to Tara. I mean, what was Bo doing out there doing any of those things that they said he was doing? Something is majorly wrong with that. There's no doubt about it during the 12 years. I think he was enjoying something. He traveled out there just to look around and reminisce, to relive the crime. That's a good question.
I've talked to her. She sent me pictures.
Does she look like Tara? A bow in the orchard. I just can't unsee it. It's just awful. But no, it's absolutely 100% real. Verified all of it. It's just disturbing, man. Honestly, it's just... I don't even know what to think about it. Honestly, I question even putting it out there because it's just so dark and weird. But I felt wrong about just letting it sit here either. If anybody was on the fence about who these people are...
Shit, well, I know who they are, and I want everyone else to know, too. See, Bo, he did something like that. Ryan would have never done anything like that. You can't tweet those photos, can you? Well, and one thing that I want to point out, just to dovetail on that, is that I know this man here, and he's not going to just throw something out there unless it's been vetted. Thank you. Thank you.
So I guess this is kind of a follow-up to someone else's question, but now that the podcast is kind of over for now, what are your personal opinions on what really happened? Man, I hope nobody asked me that. But here I am. I'll just tell you the straight-up truth, honestly. We had a plan for this question. Remember the plan? Huh? Remember our plan that we had for this question? Oh, yeah, we got to go now, right? Yeah. Ryan Duke's mom asked me that question. What do you think happened? And I'll tell her the same thing I'm telling you right now.
I don't know what happened to Tara. Does it not make sense what we know? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense to anybody. It doesn't make sense to you, me, you, y'all, anybody. A lot of things don't add up. It's clear to me that here's what we know. We know that Bo did what he did because he admitted it. And we haven't been able to hear from Ryan. Ryan may have done what he said. I don't know. But if he didn't...
That's a completely different story. And with all the other red flags I see, we can't ignore that. We've been ignoring that for almost 12 years now. And that's what took so long. So I don't know what happened. I firmly believe Ryan knows something. I don't think that he is just completely innocent. He may have done it. But I think that he knows something. Well, I want to...
if I can slightly disagree with Payne just a minute, I don't know that we know that Beau is telling the truth. So you stated, I think, in your question... You mean he's a liar? Well, you stated in your response that, you know, we know what Beau did. And the real question there is, do we? We know what he said, and we know what he said on multiple occasions which may or may not have been consistent with one another, so...
Do we in fact know what Bo did? That's an open question, I think, in my opinion at this point. Why does Bo not know why Ryan killed Tara? He should. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my whole life. That's right. You go do all that stuff. I never asked him why. His psychological makeup has the more propensity to do something like this than Ryan's. So without saying your theory, I know your theory.
But do you? Do I? That was my first theory. Thank you. So I was wondering, what has been the most surreal thing that has happened on this whole journey? Like, what was the, I guess, weirdest? The rest. For sure. For sure. And you, the crowd. No, just you. God, no.
That question was just ridiculous. Not you personally. I mean, you got someone a thousand miles away or two or three people arguing about the details of this case a year ago they never heard of it. You had to put my big boy shoes on that day.
I mean, I got an email from a friend who works in the news industry here in Atlanta, and she sent me a screenshot of a GBI email to all the media about this press conference today about Tara Grinstead and Ocilla. She's like, you know about this, right? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, what is this? And from that point forward, it was just, I mean, that was the initial burst, and then I just headed to Ocilla immediately, and...
I mean, I had no idea what was going on. It was completely surreal being in the courtroom. I could, I mean, it was unbelievable. I can't even describe it. I hate when people say that, but I don't even know how to describe it. It was just that intense. I mean, at that point, I dedicated 12 episodes to
What happened to Tara? And I was about to come back in about five days with episode 13, and they arrested somebody for Tara's murder, and I was seeing the guy from me to you in person asking him why he killed Tara a couple hours later. I mean, it's unbelievable. And that to me is, I mean, that's the most surreal moment. And from that point forward, it just got even weirder. And, you know, we're still here. And...
What's surreal to me is that so many people across the country and even internationally have developed an emotional attachment, if you will, to this case, and to a large degree have helped shape the direction of the podcast by advancing different theories, different thoughts, different ideas, and really that's a remarkable thing, and I think that it's surreal that people
that people who never knew her, never knew Tara, and they don't know any of the defendants in this case, they're not from the area like I am, but that they develop an emotional attachment to the issues in the case and to the direction that the legal system is going. Thanks, great question. Thank you. I'm going to balance off the other two.
I've been involved in this case, I've been following this case since 2005, since day one. I'm probably one of the oldest people in this room. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Because without this podcast, I firmly believe that we would not have any answer today. You're welcome. Thank you for thanking me. That means a lot, honestly. Seriously.
I have no dog in this hunt. I don't know Tara. I didn't know her family. I don't know anyone involved in this case. And my interest is totally separate from Tara. My question is, what do each of you think happened? Well, I'll go first. Okay. While you guys think about how you're going to dodge this question. Okay.
I use the bathroom. Yeah. Well, we were in Indianapolis a few months ago for CrimeCon, and we did a live question and answer very similar to this that was part of a special podcast episode. I saw that, by the way. Pardon me? I saw that. Good. Thank you. With her ears. And we...
We don't always agree on everything. In fact, oftentimes we disagree on many things, but that's kind of the point of the discussion. And to answer your question sort of inversely, I don't think any of us believe that the official narrative that we've been given through the arrest warrants and the indictments and the public statements that we've heard
I don't think any of us believe that this was a burglary that just went bad. Does the GBI believe it? No. Well, that's... In my opinion, I doubt that they do. But I know that I don't believe this is a burglary gone bad. I don't think Payne or Dr. Godwin believes that this is a burglary gone bad. This is a...
school teacher, okay, and those of us who know school teachers or our school teachers know that they don't make a lot of money, especially in Irwin County, and they don't have great wealth. There was nothing in that rental house of great value. There's no reason to burglarize it, and I can tell you that burglaries like that for the purpose of theft just don't happen in Osceola.
So I'm not buying this narrative that this was a burglary that went bad. I think that it was something else that went really bad. But what that something else is, is still an open question. And I, in my opinion, do not believe the entirety of the state's theory in this case. I kind of agree with that. Easy answer.
No, no, no. Don't start talking yet. Don't let him off that. I mean, you talked to Ryan's mother last night. I did. Expound on that, please. Excuse me while I consult with my client. No, no. I got this. She, um, I mean, here's the thing. They were both open to the idea that, you know, Ryan could have done this. And if he did, he's got to pay for it.
But they're just saying that, hey, I asked him. He said no. I believe him. No one's proven me otherwise. And I can't disagree with that either. So I really did believe them when they told me that they have the same goal as we do in a sense of they want to know the truth too. They don't know any more than we do. I believed them when they told me that. So I don't know. Like I said earlier, I think Ryan knows something. I don't think that he's...
Just a nobody and just doesn't know what's going on. He knows something. Well, didn't he have time to maybe talk to Bo between the time the GBI initially? Let me share this little tidbit. I never shared this on the podcast, but I have some screenshots from the messages between Bo and Ryan before Ryan was arrested. And the GBI was trying to get Bo to have Ryan admit what he did.
And so Bo said, he goes, something to me, I'm paraphrasing big time, but something like, you know, all these years, I never understood why, man. You know, why did you do it? And Ryan's response was, okay, question mark. I mean, could you be any more vague? I mean, not a yes, not a no, not a just, so, I don't know. That was his response. Interesting, and thank you for sharing. Yeah, no problem. I think that, um...
You've got to give it to them this time. Tell them what you think. I think the destroying of Tara's body was just as beneficial for Bo and Ryan, forensically. That is a good point. I do not discount that theory. There's no doubt about it. The destroying of the body was just as beneficial to help Bo as much as Ryan. Think about how much evidence was destroyed. Yeah, semen.
Again, thank you very much. No problem. You're welcome. Thank you. And don't be mad for the sake of time. Actually, the lady in the white tank top right here, we're going to end the line there. As far as questions for the moment, if that's okay, we'll be out and about and seeing everybody afterwards. But just for the sake of time, guys, thanks so much. I'm really hoping I'm not wasting a good question behind me. So I have two really quick questions. The first one is, so they spoke about in the car, the seat had been pushed back.
Did they do any DNA testing for hair fibers or anything like that in the car? Much later. The car was processed, fingerprinted by John David Anderson, but the car wasn't seized and taken to the GBI impound until much later, and they tore it all apart but never found anything. And is that... The only forensic evidence that I know of in this case at all is on the glove.
That they've released? Well, I think you would have heard about it by now because they needed something. And it's unusual that the car sat in the drive for that amount of time before they took it away? Oh, yeah. I mean, Anita had a lot of problems. I mean, she wanted the car luminoled. And Rothwell kept saying, I'll do it, and he never did. She was going to hire her own person. This was before I came on. She was going to hire her own person to do it, and finally he went out there and he had it done.
Yeah, I know. And my other quick question is, is grandma gonna give away her recipe for the cookies? Well, here's the thing about that. She's not, but she did make some cookies for us to give away to you guys, actually. Can I be the first one to receive some? If you win whatever contest we're about to do, then yes. Okay, well, I think they've already given them all. I think they've already done that. Did they already do that? Oh. Yeah, thanks, Payne. There's more cookies. All right, you can have the recipe then.
I just wanted to say thank you for your podcast. Amazing. And thanks for everything you do. And also, I know a gentleman mentioned it earlier, but I was curious how, if the names on the suicide note, how they're related to the murder. Well, Bo's and Ryan's names were not on there. But there's about three individuals that...
involved possibly with the pecan orchard, the party, and probably the incident at the barn with the fighting or whatever. There's three individuals' names that were on the list that are linked somehow to the case that way, yes. Who? I will say this, actually. I'll just go ahead and say this, too. The guy you heard on the last part of the podcast who told the story about dropping off that guy...
at that house near Taylor's who was drunk. He told me another story. And just, just so you know, is that the record straight between us, I trust this guy. He's somebody who is actually pretty important and made it very clear why he needed to his identity to be anonymous. But he told me another story too, that he owns a store and that somebody came into the store about in 2010 and he,
It was a father and a son, and the son pointed at a picture on the wall, and it was the missing poster of Tara. And he said, I saw her burn down there. And at first, he was working in the back, and he didn't really register it, because it's been there for a long time. And it wasn't until later...
He kind of realized he was like, was he pointing at Tara's poster? And then the next week, the dad came back and said, oh, sorry about my son last week. He made a point to bring it up. He saw a car wreck and he confused this person with that person. I don't know. The guy telling me the story, you know, he's like, I don't know what it means. All I'm telling you is that I felt weird about these two things.
And he told me the same story, Zach. Yeah, and I don't know. Things like that make you reconsider the suicide note because that guy that they were talking about, who I can't name, was...
pretty much best friends with the guy who killed himself. So I don't know. And it's also a small town. You don't know. But it's all weird and ironic. And, you know, it sucks that it's all just so muddy now. But it is. We'll figure out one day, though.
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So, who are you going to surprise with flowers? Go to proflowers.com and use the promo code UP at checkout and get 20% off Summer Roses or any other bouquet of $29 or more. Again, that's proflowers.com, promo code UP. So you just kind of touched on it, but I want to know, the people that were at the bonfire that night, do you think they know that they were burning Tara's body? No, I don't think so. They just thought it was a big bonfire. Yeah, I think that they were just... They had no idea.
I think there was, if that's what happened, if that's where they did it, they were doing that. I would think that would be something like Beau's idea, just like this is a way you do it with incognito or something where nobody knows what's going on. I don't think any people... Not to get into too much detail about any of that stuff, but it could have been, you know, the second or third day. So, yep. Hey guys, this is mostly for Phil, I think, because it's a legal question.
Is it possible that you, Payne, and you, Dr. Godwin, can be subpoenaed for trial based on your – I know you were hired as an expert or at least an investigator early on. Given the amount of time that's passed, is it possible that they could be subpoenaed for what they know? Well, you're right. It's a legal question, and what it has to do with is whether or not they have any –
information that's personal knowledge that's first and foremost relevant to any issue in either trial, whether it's regarding Bo Dukes or Ryan Duke. And then the rest of the question is, you know, does it follow the rules of evidence? Like a lot of what Payne hears is hearsay. It's double or triple hearsay in some instances. Same with Dr. Godwin. But the best
idea that I can come up with that would make either of these guys potential witness in the case is if there's a witness who testifies in a trial and the person says A, B, and C, but they've talked to Payne or Dr. Godwin and they've said something different, then these people could be called as an impeachment witness to say, well, the person told me something different.
So I think it's unlikely that either one of them would be a witness in the case, but again, I wouldn't rule anything out. Also the crime scene too. Yeah. Well, like I said, it has to do with personal knowledge and whether or not that information that you have is relevant to any issue that either side wants to present in the case and does it fall within the rules of evidence. Okay. And do you think that maybe the gag order was related at all to your podcast? And so far as y'all talking about it? Yeah. I mean, that,
Definitely, yes. But yeah, no, yeah, yes. And as far as the additional podcasts that you have, have you heard of the Crystal Rogers and Jason Ellis? I have. I've talked to her mom, actually. Would that be something you'd be interested in doing in the future? It is, actually, a case I was very interested in. I don't know if it's going to happen yet. But yeah, the case is pretty baffling. And to me, it seems like another small town with some...
going on that needs someone to come in here and show everybody what's going on. That's why I wanted to do it. Okay, we'll do the last question. Thank you guys. I want to say I too appreciate everything you've done to bring this case to a head. I've actually followed it since 2005 myself. And you guys have done a great work. My question is kind of threefold. I wanted to ask, in one of the podcasts, Payne, you said that the character Sally was
had a lot to do with Beau and they had interactions or whatever. I actually want to know as a follower of the discussion board if Sally is actually a counselor named Lindy Devonish in Australia. Number two, if she is, could she possibly be a material witness in the trial if it goes to trial?
And number three is, if she is a counselor in Australia and is involved in a bow in this kind of way, what the hell is she doing counseling people to start with? That is a very good point. It's actually the weirdest story, once again. Sally, the first time I said this person's name is Sally, the person who had a Twitter conversation with the bow is a real psychologist in Australia. And then the person that I had...
dissect their conversation. I didn't know her first name was Sally in real life, because she was referring to herself as Doctor. And she's also from Australia. And it just looked super weird. But you can look them up, they're different people. But they're both real people. And the real Sally that I'm talking about, who had that convo with Bo...
That really happened. And I don't want to talk too much about that person, but it's totally real. The GBI has all that stuff. Paul Bowden has all that stuff. Everybody has all that conversation. I'm not the only person who released that. Now, she did send me a threatening email. Is it possible she could actually be a witness in the case if it came to trial? What did he say? Let's pull our phones out.
Is it possible she could actually be an actual material witness in the trial if it went to trial? Uh, possible, uh, because she interacted with both. Professional reputation with Australian psychological society, I think it would hurt her. I mean, it was, it was super strange. Now you know why I got the email. Well, I can't say that. She's off her rocker, man. Let's be real. Well, that's not the first one I got off the rocker. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. No problem, man. Thanks for the support.
Is there anything else, pain, you want to say to them? Obviously, showing up, being here, that kind of thing. If not, no worries. We do, more than anything, we want to get the entire team up here. This is just even a small part of the team. Obviously, Resonate Recordings...
He had to leave, actually, which I feel really bad that he had to go. But there are so many people who are a part of this operation. You know, no one really cares when you say all these credits. It's like, well, all these guys, you don't care. You just want to listen to it. But there's so many people who just make this thing a reality. It's an unbelievable operation. It is...
It's so easy to look at this and be like, nah, this is not real. I'm telling you, it's the realest thing. It's so real, and it just happens to be what it is and sound like what it sounds. And it wouldn't exist like that if it weren't for all these people.
Him, him, him, Donald, my brother Mason, my wife Cassie. Everybody is such a big part of this thing. It's a part of my life. It's not just something I do on the side. And I super appreciate all you guys' support being here. And we're going to do a season two, and we're going to keep doing this thing. So thank you so much, for real. And we might go to Northside Tavern in a little bit if you guys want to come.
Just throwing that out there. I'll come mingle with you guys. Chill. But thanks so much for coming, guys. Thank you all very, very much. Thank you.
Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to ResonateRecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free. This episode was recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market. For $250 off your first month's office rent, visit IndustriousOffice.com slash vanished. Two, two, two, one, two, three.
in the flesh guys this is my real grandma are you gonna give away your recipe tonight my five sons my daughter-in-law's all of my grandchildren 12 grand and four great-grands they think
I make the best cowboy cookies in the world. They think so. I don't know about you. Well, you say she gave us the recipe, but she left something out on purpose. It's really weird. They're never as good. I think that you're going to leave a map one day for us to find the actual missing ingredient to the recipe. It's called love. Well, thank you so much for being my grandma. I love you. Thanks guys so much.
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