Fighting Big Pharma and Facing Haiti’s Crisis
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Welcome to another episode of Breaking Battlegrounds with your host Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone. As always, we're diving right into the deep end. Our first guest up today, fellow Arizonan and former Congressman J.D. Hayworth, is a spokesperson for the Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance.

And it is a murky pool he is swimming in, Chuck, where these drug prices and drug companies are concerned. It's a very murky pool. Congressman, before we get started, and I have my question to kick this off, but I want to ask you this first. What do you miss about being in Congress?

Well, I miss, look, there is dignity in all work, I believe. But Theodore Roosevelt had an expression, work worth doing. And I don't know any job that has a more profound impact on daily life. And the connection may not be first noticed among a lot of people. But serving in the Congress of the United States,

With all of the attendant hoo-ha, still, I would describe it as work worth doing.

And I do miss that type of work. And yeah, I miss the fact that, you know, I was the first Arizonan on the Ways and Means Committee. And what's the saying in Washington? Only two jobs worth having. One is to be president. The other is to be chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. At least that's the joke I heard. And of course, there is truth in humor. So yeah, admittedly, I

I miss the give and take of it. I miss both public policy and the politics involved. And it was a tremendous, tremendous honor. But in the final analysis,

The house is not a home. I got to spend 12 years there. Now, maybe one day they're going to cart me off to a home, but I know the difference between the house and my home and the house ain't supposed to be yet. See a looming gerontocracy. Not everyone makes it out of there in time to be able to tell the difference. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's, that's true. Admittedly. Absolutely. Uh,

So you are now the spokesperson for the Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance, and they are working on lowering drug prices. You know, there's a difference between profit and profiteering. What is the pharmaceutical industry doing? Are they profiting? Are they profiteering on the American taxpayer? I am so glad you made the distinction.

Because no less a fan of profit than one Donald John Trump has made the same observation from behind the presidential podium. Let me just give you the numbers. And look, we all, I think as capitalists, want to see profits. But big pharma, you take the top companies, their profit margin is

is 76%. Oh, my God. Compare and contrast that with the companies on the S&P 500 who operated about half that margin. So there's a clear difference. Or all the screaming about grocery stores which operate on a margin under 3%. Yeah. So you are looking at incredible profiteering. And the other thing that has happened is

And even more so than the days when I was serving. And yes, you can check my record. And yes, I was part of the Ways and Means Committee when we expanded Medicare to include a prescription drug benefit. But there is one thing that has become abundantly clear as the years have passed.

Big Pharma puts Americans last. We are paying, on average, three times as much as other prescription drug users in the developed world. And that may be understating it. And yes, that's even taking into account generics and price breaks. On average, Americans are paying three times as much. And when you have that kind of pocketbook issue,

It will not surprise you that even when we hear all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how polarized our country is,

There is no polarization here between Main Street and your street. Now, there may be some at one end of Pennsylvania Avenue up there on Capitol Hill, but the numbers are incredible. Eighty-four percent of Americans are saying, ìLook, we have got to have a change.î

And that's what President Trump has responded to. The 84% think about that. We measure a landslide at 60% of the vote, which means a significant minority, 40% have another choice. 84%, the American people say, regardless of party label, big pharma is to blame. Not doctors, not hospital, none of the other stakeholders in healthcare, big pharma.

And it's not demonization. It's taking a look at what's bedeviling people, and that is what they're paying for prescription drugs. And, Congressman, this is a big part of the overall health care cost that has been ballooning for Americans today.

But what you're saying, Chuck and I have talked about this a little bit on our program before, is that Americans have been subsidizing the development of basically all the new drugs and medical technologies for the rest of the world for decades. But on top of that, we're being fleeced by these companies. So we're being fleeced by Europeans. We're being fleeced by these companies. I mean –

This does seem like an absolute softball of an issue for almost every elected official out there. It is low-hanging fruit, and since you mentioned elected officials, you know, another election is coming up in two years.

And what voters are saying now, and this is according to the polling we just completed into the first of the month by the Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance, now a full 86% of voters are saying, man, this is going to have an impact. If you don't stand up against big pharma, you're less likely to keep your seat or to gain a seat in the Congress of the United States. Right.

And that's just huge. But it dovetails. Guys, I got to tell you, even last year, before we did this latest draft of polling, we expect election years to be polarizing because issues are debated and differences are concentrated upon, if you will. But the Kaiser Family Foundation in an election year,

The numbers were staggering. Eighty nine percent of Republicans, 84 percent of Democrats, 78 percent of independents said big pharma focuses on profits.

More than on people. When you've got that across the board, no wonder President Trump has moved forward. It recalls, I believe, Disraeli. The British Prime Minister is reputed to have said, I must follow the people. After all, am I not their leader? And this is a classic case of it. The other thing that's different, the Make America Healthy Coalition,

And 18 months ago, if we had gotten together and talked about President Donald Trump welcoming Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. into his cabinet, people would have said, yeah, right, that's never going to happen. Despite all the attitude we get from the D.C. media and the elites on both coasts, the fact is that President Trump has put together a nonpartisan team

as part of Team 47, searching for solutions as Americans. And that's why this resonates. It's because people look at this and look at what Big Pharma has done through the years as not being Republican or Democrat or even Libertarian or Vegetarian, but being inherently American. This is an American problem that requires an American solution.

And again, on Main Street and on the street where you live, it's probably the same thing. But there's a big difference. And I know we got a lot to talk about. And I'll let you ask the questions. Forgive me for launching into a filibuster and perhaps betraying unrealized political dreams. No, no, no. So this is great stuff. Congressman, I want to ask, though, because this touches on a big issue that you sort of just

touched around here, you've got the people behind you. 84% think that the drug companies are to blame for these high prescription prices.

88% would be more likely to support a congressional candidate who wants to force Big Pharma to lower prescription costs. You've got the people. Big Pharma, you just alluded to it. They have the press. They are the number one advertiser in virtually every category. We saw this during COVID with the COVID vaccines. Any criticism of Big Pharma gets shut down by this legacy media group.

and you're fighting these massive ad budgets, how do you take this message and move it far enough to actually get the legislation, to get the members to vote for it? Well, let me quantify that a little more. Remember late last month with the big meeting, RFK Jr., President Trump, the Make America Healthy Again report was issued. It didn't only deal with the basics of diet and health tips.

It was a study on the political health of the body politic and what you got to find there. And let me talk first about advertising, because I gave you the profit margin of Big Pharma. According to some estimates over the past few years, Big Pharma on direct to consumer ads and primarily that's television.

Those direct-to-consumer marketing vehicles, Big Pharma has spent $36 billion with a B. Now, we just talked about their profit margins.

being more than twice what you find on the S&P 500. And I can't believe those ads sell anything. Those profit margins come after the ad spend, for crying out loud. Oh, my gosh. Well, now, here's, you know, you touched on something else. Is there a doctor in the House? Yeah, there's more than one, and there's one Republican on the Ways and Means Committee, Dr. Greg Murphy of North Carolina, who has introduced legislation saying, look, we're not impinging on First Amendment rights.

But we're going to take away any tax advantage for big pharma on these TV ads, on any advertising. And again, our polling from Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance indicates that, what, 79% of the people are behind that? That picks up one point from the 78% who are behind President Trump's Make America First agenda and the most favored nation status.

And I know we're covering a lot of ground here, but just one final point on this. The most favored nation status, all you need to know, away from legislative arcana, is this simple notion.

The president saying, hey, we're going to make the United States of America the most favored nation. Right. That's what we're going to do when it comes to prescription drugs, because we've been paying, as you gentlemen just pointed out, we've been paying for a lot of this research and development through our national labs, our federal imprint on health care.

And the prescription drug companies are trailing significantly, even though they want you to say, hey, we're paying the freight and we're getting punished for it. Congressman, we're going to be coming back with more in just a moment from former Congressman J.D. Hayworth, spokesperson for the Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance. Stay tuned. Breaking Battlegrounds coming right back.

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Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds. Continuing on now with our interview with former Congressman J.D. Hayworth, currently spokesperson for the Pharmaceutical Reform Alliance. So, J.D., in the last segment, you said the pharmaceutical industry spends $35 billion on TV advertisements. Was that correct? Was that the right number?

A $36 billion direct-to-consumer marketing, but most of that's going to CEO. A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking real money. Exactly. Ev Dirksen, we're bringing him back. That's good. You know,

One of the running jokes in this country when you talk to people, social media has a lot, is just making fun of these pharmaceutical ads. I have a really hard time believing these ads sometimes make sales, but obviously they have to. Am I wrong? Do these ads really go and increase sales? Are they simply buying access to the networks and cable stations to frame the message? What is the purpose of these ads? Well, these ads are...

to have drug consumers go in and specifically ask their physician for the products they see.

And there have been other studies. Let me see if I can say this. Certainly, I'm no scientist. Well, I'm a political scientist, which people think is kind of oxymoronic, or at least a poli-sci major. And speech. So you've got the twin, the double-header for me. But what they are finding is

is that the drugs that are marketed, a lot of them are of questionable therapeutic value.

But among, for example, Medicare patients, there has been a correlation between people going in and demanding these drugs that are mentioned on television. And when you think about it, and let's, for purposes of full disclosure, we'll be honest, we all have been involved in campaigns and elections. What's the bottom line with television advertising? Gross rating points. Take

Take a look at the amount of time that somebody did a study. When you sit down to watch TV for, let's say, an hour to two hours, you're going to get probably about nine minutes of pharmaceutical ads.

Somebody's projected that over a year. It's like literally two weeks out of your life, maybe a couple of days more. Chuck and I are sports fans. It's more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You're watching the studio shows now.

And they're doing stuff that you go, well, gee, is this really to a sports audience? Why? Because they've got the money to do it. Pardon the pun. They're covering all the bases demographically, attitudinally, and trying to hit everybody, and they have the money to do it. I don't know.

I didn't even get into what they're spending on the Hill, according to that Make America Healthy Again report. What are they spending? What are they spending on the Hill? Well, this past year, they spent upwards of $13 million in the first quarter of this year alone. But understand, take it over an 11-year period beginning, well, admittedly, when I was in Congress, about 1999 on through 2018.

They spent $5 billion, primarily on Capitol Hill, but also at the state level, and billions more, billions with a B, billions more setting up, quote, patient advocacy groups.

to prime the pump for a certain debate and a certain clamor, not so much the voice of the people, but ventriloquism to the people to advocate certain things that, well, I don't say be hazardous to your health necessarily, but hazardous to your financial health and your family budget. Congressman,

One of the issues going on with drug pricing that obviously ties directly to the pharmaceutical company, it ties to Obamacare and to some of the changes that were made to Medicare and Medicaid billing at that time, but the creation of prescription benefit managers.

I don't think people understand the role. Is that something that needs to be reformed or gotten rid of, or are they a positive force the way they claim that they're holding drug prices down? Well, I understand. And the best analogy I've come up with, and maybe you guys have used a traveling or somebody. I know we've got all this stuff on the Internet, but everything is price-driven.

And so for a lot of companies who want to have health care for their employees, it may be mandated on the size of the company, whatever, they're looking for economical prices. So the PBMs have found a niche in the markets for saying, hey, we can deliver pricing to you that will allow everybody in your company to be covered. Now, what you're also getting is

are the horror stories from Big Pharma. And what we've seen a lot in political debates is really not so much rhetorical art, but more the psychological gimmick of projection. And it translates to that playground taunt. You're rubber, no, I'm rubber, you're glue, it bounces off me and it hits back on you!

And so you get the arguments, ironically, where big pharma is the culprit. And they go and say, it's these guys doing it. And look, are there ways to do things better? Absolutely. In fact, some of the most candid legislation I ever had to vote on

They were called improvements. Improvements to the action you take. Where you go, hmm, this didn't go exactly. We'll do a refinement and improvement. And in fact, on our sacred document, the Constitution of the United States, we have a Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments for individual liberties. And there was even great debate, do we need to list these? And finally it was, well, yes, we do.

And thank the good Lord we have them. So, yeah, they're in an imperfect process.

Everybody can look at what they're doing better. The question becomes one of degree, and it's a little bit much for guys talking for Big Pharma to say, look at the spec over here, scripturally speaking, when there's a log in Big Pharma's collective eye. Congressman, we have just about a minute and a half left here. I want to ask you this. As a former member of Congress, obviously, this is a critical issue.

But if you could go back to Washington, D.C., and wave your wand on three issues, what are the three issues you are tackling right away? Obviously, prescription drugs, because people agree. Yep. First and foremost. And you just asked me about three issues, so I'm going to set down the portfolio, even as national spokesman, and answer this as a guy who tried to lead the charge. Number two...

Not just the poll-tested line of securing the border, but returning to lawful immigration and returning home those who have come here illegally, because border security is national security. And the third thing would be meaningful tax reform.

which again, though hotly debated right now, means temporarily the big, beautiful bill, because barring that, you are looking at a massive tax increase on the American people. And then finding the right kind of reform to simplify taxes, although there are those who say now, with an emerging school in economics, that tariffs...

Just like in the days of McKinley, and you and I were taught something different in school and in conventional wisdom, how horrible tariffs are. We're seeing a re-evaluation, a reassessment, a revision of that, being a way to actually lower taxes. As there should be. Congressman J.D. Hayworth, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate having you on the program. Look forward to having you back in the near future, breaking battlegrounds back in just a moment.

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Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with your host Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone. Our next segment here is continuing on with something that Breaking Battlegrounds has been talking about, but Chuck...

As we've said before, there is nowhere near enough coverage nationally or internationally about what is going on in Haiti. And that is why we are so blessed to have Michael Deibert on the program now. He's a friend of the show, author and journalist. He's covered Haiti for 30 years and just returned from his latest trip. He joins us now to tell us what he witnessed. It has been a chaotic scene, but there may be some little rays of hope. Michael, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Glad you're back safe and sound. So, you know, getting ready for this and based on our conversations and doing some reading the last day or two. So, you know, the United Nations has come out and says violence against children in Haiti has increased 500 percent. They're saying 2,600 people have been killed in gang-related violence this year. You were on the ground there. They're also facing 51 percent of the population is facing acute food insecurity.

Is it as bad as is being painted by the news media down there? I mean, Port-au-Prince especially, but also Haiti more broadly, has experienced an extraordinary, I would say, security collapse over the last several years.

Another statistic that has come out recently is that 1.3 million people have been displaced by the violence in and around the Capitol, which is pretty extraordinary. Michael, sometimes when we come on, we know what that word means. Explain to our audience, what does 1.3 million people being displaced mean?

Sure. I mean, I can give you a very kind of concrete and personal example of what that looks like. I visited a government ministry that had been occupied essentially by people who had been chased out of a neighborhood called Solino by Vivant Somme, which means live together in English, which is this coalition of armed groups.

And you had about 8,000 people living in a not terribly big building in, you know, absolutely cheek by jowl, no privacy, very poor sanitary conditions in a place that looks quite ripe, I would say, for some sort of epidemic to sweep through. And also, of course, we're entering hurricane season.

That is one of 200 of those sites in and around the capital. So you have, you know, all of those people living in conditions very similar to that. And, you know, you still have, I would say what was interesting from a security perspective on the ground is what had seemed even a couple of weeks ago, like this relentless advance by these armed groups upon the capital. It looked like they might completely take over. I mean, they control about 80 percent of it right now.

Looks like it has been paused, if not reversed, by a couple of aspects. Now, one aspect that has been given a lot of attention abroad, obviously, is you have a couple of, you know, I would say at this point under a dozen people connected to Eric Prince, who's the former CEO of Blackwater, who are operating under the office of the prime minister in Haiti, a guy called Alex Didier Fils-Aimé.

who are operating weaponized drones against the kind of readouts, the headquarters of these armed groups. That has certainly had an effect.

But what I think on the ground has had even more of an effect is that it seems like there has been more effective coordination between the Haitian police and these militias that operate in various parts of the neighborhood, especially in a neighborhood called Canapé Vert, which is where I spent a bit of time, which is kind of, I would say, almost the front line stopping the gang incursion to the other areas of Port-au-Prince.

Now, of course, you know, having largely unregulated other armed groups running around various parts of the country presents its own set of problems. But where I would say a month ago, it looked like these armed groups of Vivan Sam were on an unstoppable run of winning hands. I would say that looks a little less certain at the present. In terms of where that goes in the future, let's say they are able to continue rolling them back.

How does Haiti, and I'm sorry, we have only a minute and a half left, so I'm going to apologize for launching you into kind of a long question here. But what is the end game politically where this comes out as a more stable country? That's the question I just keep asking myself. It doesn't seem like there's really ever any progress towards that or even necessarily any focus on it.

You need to have some kind of semi-permanent body in Haiti that works to curtail and stop the links of political and economic actors to these armed groups. Because I've seen them, you know, quasi-pushed back many times over the years of my reporting in Haiti. And they always come back because the template of the power structure in Haiti doesn't change.

And, you know, when we speak in a little bit more detail in a little bit, I can explain a little bit about what I think that might look like. But it would be kind of a Haitian-led foreign-supported solution that will get into the kind of root causes of this problem. Fantastic. We're going to be coming back with more from Michael Divert here in just a moment. Michael, how do folks follow you and stay on top of all the work you're doing?

Sure. I have a fairly active account on Twitter, or now X, which is Michael C. Divert. And I also have a sub stack, which is michaeldivert.substack.com. The title of it is Notes from the World. Beautiful. Folks, make sure you are up to date with that. This is a story that is not getting anywhere near enough coverage. Michael Divert is doing brilliant work covering this, frankly, putting his life at risk to do so.

So take advantage of that and the knowledge he is bringing you. Breaking Battlegrounds will be bringing you more of it in just a moment. In today's digital world, standing out is more important than ever. Whether you're running for office, leading a cause, or hosting a vote for the cutest pet in town, you need a web domain that's simple, memorable, and action-oriented. You need a .vote web domain. It's clear, impactful, and establishes a lasting presence for your campaign.

Don't wait. Head to GoDaddy.com or Name.com, type in your name.vote, and get started today. Because after all, every pet deserves a web address that's as special as they are. Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with yours, Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone. Continuing on the line now with us, Michael Divert, friend of the program, author, and journalist. He's covered Haiti for 30 years and just came back from his latest trip there. So, Michael, as we helped you get down there,

Were you surprised what you found on the ground? Was it better than you expected, worse than you expected? I mean, you spent two decades of your life down there. Give people a picture of what you saw in Haiti. Yeah, so the situation in Port-au-Prince is still quite dire, I would say. I mean, you know, you have a lot of...

You have a lot of the capital that is still inaccessible to the kind of, you know, quasi official authorities. And you have, of course, this huge displacement of more than a million people who are living in quite precarious conditions. The security situation isn't quite as bad as I thought it was, although for I would say a kind of normal country, it would still be viewed as quite, quite bad.

What I found extraordinary though was, you know, I mean, anybody who goes to Haiti, I think one of the things you come away with is an impression of the incredible friendliness and warmth of the people there. And I would expect to see that fairly erased, but I still found people had a little bit of the joie de vivre even amid this terrible situation. And I would say I flew into Cape Haitian, which is Haiti's second largest city in the north. It's fairly far away.

from Port-au-Prince and you know CAP despite the fact that it's been flooded with kind of internally displaced people from other parts of the country. It's still operating more or less normally. I mean there's lots of nightlife, there's restaurants opening, the airport's functioning. So you know although the chaos and the violence is encompassing an ever greater part of the country and is having impacts

in the other parts of the country, it would not be accurate to kind of say that the entire country is under gang control. What you have is, you know, Port-au-Prince, the metropolitan area, the area going to the Dominican Republic, increasingly the area going towards what we call the Plateau Central, which is kind of also heading east towards the border with the DR.

But there are some other areas. I mean, if you just kind of landed in Cap, for example, without knowledge of what's going on in the rest of Haiti, you could be kind of oblivious. And, you know, I would say the people I mean, the interim government, such as it is, which was cobbled together by the U.S. and CARICOM, it's this nine person Hydra headed transitional authority and a prime minister.

I think there's a general, I mean, it's quite extraordinary in that along with Ariel Henry, the prime minister who was ousted, I really have never in the world met a political entity with no support until then. And Ariel, you know, because everybody, every politician, no matter how much they're hated, they generally have some support, but they wouldn't be a...

in politics. But these guys, I mean, from, you know, the people who are quite, you know, living in really modest circumstances to people who are much more comfortable, uh,

I found the general consensus was that these guys are kind of scrambling to take whatever privileges and money they can get their hands on and essentially ignoring the really desperate straits that the rest of the population is in. How do people like you, us, others, how do we get the message? I mean, if the U.S. is going to play a role in this going forward like they have,

that that needs to change, that there needs to be some sort of Haitian-led coalition that actually represents some of the people there, because it doesn't seem like Washington's listening. Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, I was talking to an entrepreneur who I would say is very close to some of these self-defense brigades, militias in Canapé Bayer, and he was saying that when he saw the

the formation of the interim, the transition council that's ostensibly running the country now. He said it was as if you put all the anti-Haitian, anti-democratic, anti-progress forces in one entity and gave them control of the country. That was his analysis of it. And, you know, I think there are a couple of things. I mean, clearly, you know, Haiti has not had any sort of elected government since the assassination of Jovenel Moïse in July of 2021. So, you know, you have to at some point have

an election that will give it a parliament, that will give it a government president. But that would be impossible to do until some sort of security situation stabilizes. Now, my theory is

Haiti was supposed to get this 5,000-member international Kenyan-led security force. There's only a little over 1,000 there right now. And I think even if they're trying to— Michael, let me stop you there. Why? I mean that was like over 18 months ago they were supposed to get the 5,000 there, right? I mean am I wrong on that number? Yeah, no. I mean they were supposed to be low on their 5,000. So why? So my question is—and this is what frustrates Americans. And I'm going to make a very big point here.

This is why you have people like Donald Trump. People are just tired of this. Why is there not 5,000 peacekeepers down there? What is the delay? Well, the Americans, along with other entities, don't want to fund them, for one, which is obviously problematic. Well, it's criminal. It's criminal. People are dying. I mean, we're creating terrorist haven. I would say...

in the long-term analysis of Haiti, right? So you had a 17-year UN peacekeeping mission there from 2004 to 2017, led by Brazil. And what I saw happen as that was going on was essentially, you know, the political and economic elites in the country were more than happy to allow the foreigners to control or control the security situation while they continued doing their politics and doing their often quite frankly dirty business.

I think, you know, the Haitian police and the Haitian army, and I would say the dis mobilization of the Haitian army in 1995, which the US at the time supported under Bill Clinton, was one of the most catastrophic decisions ever taken in the country, because we're not talking about Switzerland here or something like that, or Costa Rica. I mean, and most Haitians, I think at the time, you know, who were familiar with the security situation of the country,

Didn't think you could demobilize an army and have a have a country run by, say, 8000 or 10000 police. I mean, the the the New York Police Department is 50000. Right. So, you know, so what I think I think needs to be done is I think the the Haitian army and the Haitian police need to be given the tools and the training to really police and really, you know, install install rule of law in the country now, along with that.

Because there is this long-term, multi-decade connection of various political actors and various economic actors with these armed groups. And I can't stress this enough. I mean, they helped create these armed groups and then they lost control of them. But I think once they get control back, they will revert back to type and continue working with them and fostering them. So there has to be some kind of long-term solution to keep that from happening again because I've seen it replicate many times. So, Michael, you went back.

And I'm sure you visit with a lot of your contacts, correct? People you've known for years, right? Yeah. Yes, Greg. Are they hopeful?

I mean, where are they at mentally? I mean, I think there's... I hate to use the word resilience because it's like you wouldn't... If my family was in this situation, I wouldn't want to hear about their resilience. Thank you very much. Right, right, right. Yeah. But, you know, I think there is a hard grain of really intense patriotism among a lot of Haitians who could leave the country, who won't. I mean, Haiti is their home. It is the only home they know. I mean, these are people...

You know, a lot of them could move to the United States or they could move to Canada if they wanted to. They have the resources to do so, but they won't. I mean, people who are in more desperate circumstances. I mean, one thing that's ironic. I mean, I flew to Haiti via Turks and Caicos. And within 30 minutes of being in Providenciales, you realize that the hotel and restaurant staff all over the island are all Haitian.

And, you know, that's much the case in the Dominican Republic as well. You find that in the Bahamas, too. So Haiti is kind of providing labor for a lot of other islands around the Caribbean, which I mean, I'm sure if you gave these folks a choice, they would rather remain in their own country like most people would. Correct. They don't want to move abroad. But the the political situation in Haiti has destroyed the security situation, which then has destroyed the economy.

And just briefly, I would say, I mean, you know, for a number of years after Guatemala Civil War ended in 1996, you had this UN fostered entity whose acronym is CICIG, C-I-C-I-G, the Commission Against Impunity in Guatemala would be its translation in English.

You know, they did a great job before they were disbanded in terms of tracking and dismantling the exact same networks that I'm talking about in Haiti. So where the political and economic actors had been working with criminal actors to promote their own interests. And I think, you know, that was a Guatemalan thing that was

supported but not controlled by the international community. And I think Haiti really, you know, when this chapter is over, they really need some sort of entity in that, like that, to protect the people from their so-called leaders. To get to that point, though, it seems like you need a leader who

whether individually a charismatic leader or a bureaucratic leader of one type or another, who can bring people together behind a vision to restore the country like that. In your travels, have you met anyone who could fill that bill, or is that kind of one of the big missing elements?

I would say, as is attested to you by the fact that voter participation has gone down in every election, Haitians are extremely, in my talks with them, cynical about their politicians. Sure. For good reason. That said, however, you know, there's no shortage of highly educated patriotic people in Haiti who want to help the country.

I think what, you know, with the restoration of the security situation, maybe a space could be cleared where those people feel comfortable becoming engaged in politics. Because a lot of them, for good reason, are afraid of getting involved in politics. Because, you know, if you're an honest person in politics in Haiti, there's not a small chance that you might wind up dead. You know, I know people that has happened to. So I think, you know, the first... And I would say also, like, one thing that has to be understood is...

you know, not in any way to kind of try to excuse their actions or anything like that. But a lot of these gang leaders, you know, they've grown up in this situation where that life is the normal thing. And they themselves, in a way, are kind of highly traumatized. And the kids they have recruited into the system now are also growing up highly traumatized. So there needs to be some sort of

Real investment and real intervention into these extremely marginalized neighborhoods. So young people, especially young men, see some sort of other option other than the quick and easy money and short life, quite frankly. But who does? But Michael, who does this? I mean, who provides this support?

Sure. Just so I'm clear about what you're asking, do you mean support of the – in terms of who supports the gangs or who – No, no. Who supports these – the money to support these endeavors you're talking about? To create the security situation. To create the security system. I mean who does this? One thing that I have found extraordinary, which a lot of Haitian people are puzzled on, is it was recently leaked –

Essentially, the monthly salaries plus per diems plus expenses of all the nine members of this transition council. The numbers were beyond belief. What were the billions of dollars a month?

uh and yes and and you know um I mean that money for example I mean that money would be far what better spent sending it into a neighborhood like City Soleil or a neighborhood like Bel Air or something like that to dissuade kids from this lifestyle than spending it on these guys um so I mean and and I will retreat again you know I mean anyone remotely familiar with Haiti's political system could have told caracom and the U.S government at the time that

Getting nine people to run the country instead of one when you can barely run it with one, nine, was an insane idea.

So, I mean, I think this so-called transition council needs to have an extremely short and abbreviated life. Well, look, we're about ready to end this segment and go into our podcast portion. I want to keep you on for about 10 minutes on this. And what I'm going to ask for you to do is to lay out, as a person who knows this country probably as well as anybody talking about this, what has to happen? Somebody has to be responsible for this.

So it's okay if you come and say it's the United States. It's okay if you say that. Frankly, I don't know who else it is besides the United States, to be honest with you. I don't know anybody else who can do it. But what I want to do is talk to our audience. These are the things that have to happen if Haiti is to have a chance and not just become some dystopian nightmare we're going to see on Netflix in 20 years.

And so I think that's really important because you're there. You've seen it. And so we're going to come back here in a minute and talk about this if you don't mind doing that because you know it. I'm happy to do it. I mean, you know it. And that's audience. That's what we want you to learn about Michael. Michael knows his situation as well as anybody you're going to get.

And you don't have to agree with all his opinions on it, but he's lived there. He knows his people. He probably considers them family in many ways. And we just need to know what needs to happen so this doesn't become this living hell on earth that's two hours from Miami. It's a huge question. I think you're right that only the United States has the capacity or even potentially the will to

I'm very curious to see what Michael has to say on the rest of that. So, folks, stay tuned. Make sure you're downloading the podcast. Go to BreakingBattlegrounds.vote. You can find us on Substack, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Breaking Battlegrounds is there. Michael, real quick before we let you go from the air here, how do people stay up with your work?

Sure. I have a Substack, a newsletter that comes out fairly frequently. It's michaeldiver.substack.com. And the name of it is Notes from the World. I would say that's probably the best way to keep up with my writing and some of the interviews I do on my own podcast portion and things like that. Carpenter. Breaking Bad Grounds back in the air next week. I say this every election cycle, and I'll say it again. The 2024 political field was intense. So don't get left behind in 2025.

If you're running for office, the first thing on your to-do list should be securing your name on the web. With a yourname.vote domain from GoDaddy.com, you'll stand out and make your mark. Don't wait. Get yours today.

Welcome to the podcast portion of Breaking Battlegrounds. We are with Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone. We're continuing on now with Michael Divert. He is our expert on everything Haiti. Right before we got done with the on-air segment, Chuck, you were asking an important question here. The question is here to tell our audience is sometimes we all get in this roundabout way of just saying here's the problems. Okay.

How do we solve Haiti as a man that's been on the ground there? And who is responsible? Who has to be the adult in the room to help Haiti get back on its feet? And so these people can have a life. Yeah, I think I think the thing in terms of, you know, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, in Haiti, the kind of looming presence is the United States more than any other other country that's involved there. Right. France is very distant. Canada isn't really a player at that level or at that size.

And I mean, I think the thing that the United States could do in terms of helping Haiti, they're a couple fold, right? In terms of

in terms of our um you know training supplying equipping facilitating the Haitian security forces so we're talking about uh the Haitian police the Haitian army to to do their job of retaking the territory that they have lost to these gangs and you know kind of reins I would I wouldn't even say reasserting the presence of the state but asserting it for the first time

in some of these places. I think there would be an extraordinary psychological effect if, you know, they took over territory held by one of these gang leaders. For example, Grand Ravine, that will probably be the hardest. Village de Dieu, Croix de Bouquet. These are all areas around Port-au-Prince that have been gang ruled for quite a number of years at this point. I think that's really important, number one. I think, you know, we have... So let me stop you there. So let's go and say we go take Grand Ravine, okay, what you were just talking about.

Is that – are we saying you have to put soldiers there and there's going to be an armed conflict, but that's the way you're going to clear it out? I mean let's just be honest about it. Let's just be honest about it. This sounds like you have to say – let's just say it's the United States. You got to have soldiers go in there and there's probably going to be an armed conflict, but they're probably just going to have to – they're going to have to use force to clean up this area. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah.

Well, based on my experience in Haiti, right? So I saw the tail end of the UN mission in 1994. I saw very firsthand first the US Canadian France security mission in 2004 and then the UN mission from 2004 to 2017. And the thing is, these foreign led missions, I feel like they aren't really that effective in the long run. So that's why I'm saying I think what the US can do fantastically

is to help train and equip the haitian forces to do just what you're talking about okay okay they know the terrain they speak the language they have the contacts there that we that our forces american forces would not have so so to your mind i mean and this makes sense to me the first step sounds like what the u.s should do is go start grabbing a couple hundred of them at a time take them to fort bragg right and bring them over here spend 90 days or 180 days whatever it is and

teach them everything they need to know. Yeah, I think that could be a great help. And I think it could be a morale boost for the Haitian security forces as well. And the other thing I would say is, you know, we, the U.S. government has, or our government, I shouldn't say we, I'm not part of the U.S. government, but, you know, our government has sanctioned a bunch of different individuals in Haiti, both economic and political, for their links to these groups.

There's a lot more sanctions that should be leveled because that I know from speaking to people there really got people's attention, you know, because these folks now can't do business in the U.S. They can't travel to the U.S. And I think there are more people who should be under that kind of heavy manners, as they call it in Jamaica. So like that kind of discipline. And I want to touch on one point before you move on from that one, because I think this is important.

People don't seem to – sanctions, people hear sanctions. We sanction Russia. We sanction China. We do all this. That doesn't ever seem to have really much effect. But when you're sanctioning individuals, you're locking them out of the international banking system. That's a real impact. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of these guys, because they're almost all guys, kind of thought they could do this dirty business and never be touched forever because they'd done it for decades. Sure.

And, you know, and as I said, you know, along with the security, the security kind of buttressing their security forces, along with the regime of kind of financial penalties for people who are involved in this.

Also, the attempts to kind of, you know, lessen the marginalization of these neighborhoods, right? I mean, there's lots of great organizations in Haiti that certainly, you know, the U.S. could partner with to help kind of bring these favorized neighborhoods more into the kind of general economic system of the country and things like that. And then also having some sort of entity to continually investigate and prosecute the links of political and economic actors to these armed groups.

If we don't do that, they'll go right back to type as soon as as soon as the security situation. One of the other elements to stabilizing a country, obviously, is always stabilizing its economic situation and creating opportunity. It it seems like one of the things that's really missing is like a micro lending setup or something like that that would allow people to create. Sam, you brought up a good point. How do they make money in Haiti? I mean, what what is the industry? How do they make money?

Oh man, I mean, any way you can imagine. I mean, I rarely, I have to say, I mean, Haiti is a place where you never, you never don't see a whirl of activity, right? Whether, and whether it's, you know, a woman trying to sell six mangoes on the side of the street or some guy running a auto body repair shop in his yard. I mean, people are working all the time. I mean, one, one thing that I've always found an incredible missed opportunity in Haiti is

is physically the country is extraordinary. It's incredibly beautiful. I mean, it has these mountains. It has beautiful beaches. It has all of these historic sites, you know, forts, castles, things like that. It should be one of the great tourist destinations of the world.

Oh, yeah. And I mean, even just Cape Haitian, for example, which has an international airport. I mean, it's small, but it can take wide bodied big jets. I mean, you have the city itself, which is really interesting, a bit dirty at the moment, but quite it looks a bit like the Zona Colonial in Santo Domingo, if people know what that looks like, or Viejo San Juan in Puerto Rico. Then outside of the city, you have the Citadel, which is a fort built by Henri Christophe, one of Haiti's revolutionary leaders, and Sanssouci, which is a palace built based on Versailles.

On top of all of that, you have a bunch of beautiful beaches and islands just outside of the city. So you have all of these three things together and you're like, well, why isn't this place full of tourists spending millions of dollars a year into the economy? And the answer is because people are afraid to go there, even though, you know, Cap is miles and miles from Port-au-Prince. The stigma continues, right? Sure. So.

So I think and rather than, you know, I mean, when after the earthquake, I mean, Bill Clinton, for example, had this big plan that he was going to build this industrial park outside of Cape Haitian, which never took off the ground and was riddled by accusations of corruption and things like that. And I don't really think this whole idea of having small manufacturing industry, it doesn't ever seem to really take off. No, no.

So, yeah, so we have to look at other things. I mean, flying, so I had to, in order to get into Port-au-Prince now, because the airport's closed, because the gangs were shooting at airplanes, you have to take a helicopter from Cap down to Port-au-Prince. So basically you fly over a pretty good chunk of the country. And when you're flying over this region called the Artimid Valley, you still see, it's still lush and fecund, and it just looks, it's one of those places where you would drop a seed in the ground and it would grow in five minutes.

And and so I think we can also look at some sort of, you know, agriculture in Haiti as well, because now it's being done, I would say, a very relatively small level. And you don't have to have huge corporate agriculture go in there ever. But you can you can link these local farmers into the global system of agriculture. So they're getting maybe a better price.

And you were speaking about micro lending earlier. There's a great organization in Haiti called Foncoze, the Fondation Collège de Paule, which does exactly that. It's a micro lending organization that operates all over the country. And I've seen them change people's lives, for example, you know, with really relatively small.

speaking, small loans that enable them to kind of get a foot up on the economic ladder. And then, you know, within, you know, within five or six years, these people have their own employees and, you know, their own house and things like that. And there's lots of organizations working like that. I mean, there's also in terms of

you know, kind of getting a handle on the structural and systemic causes of the violence that give rise to these gangs. There's a great organization called La Coup La Paix, which means like peaceful neighborhood in Creole that has worked in these neighborhoods for now 20 years almost. And I think really has a very lucid read on some of the problems and some of the potential solutions there. Well, Michael, um, we're going to want to get you back on the show again. Um,

All these things sound like it's a pipe dream until the country's safe, right? So there's adults running the operation. Is that a fair assessment?

I mean, I would say having seen Haiti come back from the earthquake of 2010, which seemed impossible, I wouldn't say it's a pipe dream, but it's definitely a steep climb. But the first step is to make it safe, right? Yes. Yeah. Because you can't have economic development in a city that's 80% controlled by these armed groups. Well, Michael, thank you for joining us. Again, tell our podcast audience where they can follow your work.

Sure. I have a newsletter, a sub stack, which is michaeldivert.substack.com. Its name is Notes from the World. And I have a fairly active Twitter slash ex-account, Michael C. Divert. And, you know, hopefully you can find me relaxing on a beautiful Haitian beach near you someday. We would love that very much. Michael, thank you for joining us today, buddy. Appreciate you. Thanks, fellas. Thanks for getting back safe. Well, Sam, Haiti. Yes.

One thing he said in passing that kind of has been niggling in the back of my mind, kind of just writing off Canada, which you should because that's the reality. But the disappointment of that is that if Canada were what it could be without its awful leadership –

Haiti would be the perfect type of environment for them to step up in internationally with us dealing with these bigger problems all over the globe, right? But they're useless. The problem is there's no leadership anywhere in the world. And that's the problem is. And you're going to have an administration that's frustrated, doesn't want to get involved in that. But again, you and I have said this. Haiti is a national security threat to the United States. You are making it...

A terrorist haven in the Caribbean that's close to the United States. And, Shea, we'll get you on the show. Shea's going to hear talk about another matter. But that is a national security threat. And I think that's what people need to realize. And that's how you sell it to MAGA. Guys, you can't have a terrorist haven that's two hours from Miami. You're talking about lack of leadership. And actually, this is a question I would bounce to Shea. Yeah. You know –

Who are the world's leaders right now who are stepping up? And the list is not a list of people who Americans would generally want to be the ones doing that. It's Vladimir Putin. It's Xi Jinping. It is Prime Minister Modi in India. It is MBS in Saudi Arabia. Some of those people, like those last two, are reasonably friendly to us. But it's not the U.S. and Europe. Well, again, it's...

I'm just telling you, that is a tinderbox down there that the United States needs to get on. We should step in. We can step in. And I love what Michael said. Just bring some of their folks up here, train them, and let them go down there and start taking the neighborhoods back. And he's right. And I liked what he said. Look, U.S. soldiers don't know the terrain. They don't know the neighborhoods. Get the people who do, but train them. Can I suggest one enhancement to that program we ought to take away from our experience in training the Mexican Armed Forces soldiers?

Yeah, they've learned a little too well. No, what you need to tell them is, listen, if we ever find out that you're using what we've taught you against the order, we're going to assassinate you. Yeah, you're going to be on our most wanted list. We're going to take care of you on this. You know,

You say that it's a national security threat. And I always like to point out that whatever happens in Eurasia or Africa, it's going to have huge impact on our economy. Correct. But it's going to be an economic catastrophe. That's why we care about it. In the Americas, things happen actually become a security problem for us. So

for the best example is obviously what happened in Syrian civil war and refugee crisis they had in Europe. That could happen for us when it is happening to some extent. It's going to be worse. And you're going to tell me that Russia and China

who are our enemies, are not paying off warlords to do XYZ for them down there or cartels? Of course they are. Yeah, I mean, that's why this is a national security threat. There's two things. Look, two things can be true. It's good public policy, humanitarian-wise, to make sure people in Haiti have a country.

Right? It's not our job to do LBGT training or anything else like that, but our job is so they have a safe neighborhood, right? You and I could turn that entire region into just, you know, first we go in, we take over Cuba. Just that one we do ourselves. We invade, we take it over. We turn it into the greatest resort island in the history of resort islands. You know, it's just... With a beautiful population, it'd be fantastic. It's the same thing as Puerto Rico. If you've ever visited Puerto Rico, Brandon, have you visited Puerto Rico? You go there and go...

Why is this not the Hawaii of the East Coast? Literally. I mean, I'm serious. It should be. It's gorgeous. There's 367 beaches in Puerto Rico. Right? Yeah. There's only 365 days a year. You can't do them all. Right? So anyway. Well, folks, we're going to get off Haiti for a minute because we have limited time. But Sheikha Terry, he wrote an article that I asked him to actually.

As you know, Shay's been on the show before, and he's from Iran, and he wrote an article he put out in Substack called The Israeli Attack That I Celebrated Most Madly. And this is a personal story for Shay, but it's an important story because his story is unique to him, but there's others who have experienced it. And you need to understand there is a majority of Iranians –

They want their lives back. It's a big part of the story of the Iranian population. They're Persians. They don't want to be under Mullah control. And Shay, why don't you explain about your story, your youth,

And frankly, this incident brought you here to the good old USA. So let's talk about it a little bit. So let's start with the last part because you guys know this about me. But for the sake of the listeners, when I talk, and I mentioned this in the article, I often wonder whether it was a different person who went through all that. Whatever happens in Iran, I'll be very happy if there is freedom. But I'm an American. I'm staying here. I'm going to go.

And I am sure, as I have a number of people, friends going through therapy right now, there's a lot to unpack there. And one day we may get you in to unpack it. But continue with your story. But that different person who once upon a time lived in Iran. I mentioned that in that article that I just go through five different memories I had. Well, four until, yes, and the fifth one was the attack that happened.

The first one, I'm in ninth grade, and the Besiege is a militia for young people that is run by the government. It's affiliated by the government, but these are younger people who are attracted for some ideological reasons, others for privileges, for money, for power. And they do their regimes, their work. They put down protests. They protest.

show up to public demonstrations. Those big demonstrations you see Iran puts up, most of them are members of the Besiege who are there for the benefits they are receiving, even if they might not be ideological believers. So the recruiter comes to me in ninth grade and he's trying to get me to join.

It's especially important for him that I would participate because my family, both my parents were political prisoners and my dad was quite famous. It's like being the greatest achievement of this recruiter's life. Sure. I get the regime opponent's son to become a talk for the regime. It's like getting some Trump relative to write a book about him, right? Right. Yeah. Someone should do that. Has it happened before? No.

Good sell. And it's actually a very good comparison because he's not selling me on the ideology. He's selling me on the craft of it.

that you'll get all these special privileges. I'm being bullied at school. I was a year younger than everybody else. I'm the smallest kid, and it's ninth grade. It's a high school, hundreds of boys. It's not co-ed. It's all boys' school. And everybody's easiest person to pick on is me, and suddenly I could join, and I could be the bully, and nobody could touch me.

When the college application comes, I'm going to have a top priority to go to any program. Because you're in the club. Yeah. And he's also saying that you don't have to do anything anybody else does. Just join. And it's just...

the moral victory that they're going to score. Right. I'm a kid. It's very tempting. And you're being bullied? Yeah. Yeah, I get it. And it's not just the things you get, but it's the things you wouldn't have access to if you turn them down. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, and I...

It's an attractive offer, but also I come from the family I come from, and I admire my family, especially my dad. I know who tortured my dad, and I would be joining that team. I just cannot do it, so I reject the offer. Later on, at a very top STEM program in college, but much more important than the program I'm in, for the first time, I'm around girls. I'm a freshman, and I'm flirting with this one girl, and a...

Another girl passes by. She's a member of the Basij. And she rats us out that we're flirting. We end up at the security office, campus security. For flirting with a girl in college? Yeah. That's a top-off. I've ended up in a campus security office, but it wasn't for that. But campus security is not there to protect the students. It's to protect the government from the students and to uphold Islamic values.

which I am prone to violating a lot. I mean, look, as the Jewish side of this equation, I can tell you this is an area where our people are very similar. I tell the story all the time of we used to go Sunday mornings. My dad would take me for bacon and eggs, right? Right.

And we would go to this diner on the far side of town from where we lived. And I never understood why people wouldn't see you until we walked in one morning and our rabbi was there with, I kid you not a mountain, a mountain of bacon. Yeah.

Actually, I have to interject a story. I was once at a friend's party. Everybody except me was Jewish. And everybody's drunk. And my friend tells his rabbi that, hey, rabbi, I'm drunk, so I'm going to just tell you that I eat a lot of bacon. And the rabbi just looks at me and says, it's not office hour. I don't care. Yeah.

All right. Let's get back to this ADD moment we just had here. Let's get back to this here. So you're busted. You're in security. You're flirting with a girl. Yeah, and they tell us that they close off with a warning, but they say that if you keep doing this, we're going to expel you. And it's a top-stamp program. It's very coveted. It's a meaning of a good life in Iran. Yeah.

It's also scary. You don't want to run into problems with these people. And I'm just... We're lit off. And I'm cursing in my mind at this girl who had ratted us out. But I cannot do anything about it, right? Then again, 2009 protests, and I get roughed up. We end up actually...

One night, we ended up cornering some of the security guards who were members of the besiege. And we really humiliated them, roughed them up. We're very proud of ourselves. Turns out when they are not wearing their gear, they're not that scary at all. The night after, we go back thinking that we could repeat what we just did. And they had come for revenge.

They were everywhere, and eventually they corner us, and people opened their houses. We went and hid in one of these. And throughout this episode, I got shot by a rubber bullet, and my hand was hurting really bad. So the night before, I had been roughed up, but we had won. So I didn't mind that. But this night, I actually am...

It's quite hurting and we're cornered and if we go out we would be arrested because they're waiting. So 2x2, 3x3, we spent the entire night after midnight to 3am. We jumped roofs and all of us ended up escaping but jumping roofs. And the last story I have is from yesterday or two days ago when Israel hit the Besiege headquarters.

And it's morning time in Arizona and my phone is blowing up and I check what something has had, some big thing has to have happened. I go check my phone. Yeah, the headquarters have been blown up and all these stories flash before me. And I'm thinking, this is not the most important thing Israel has done. It's not...

going to have much strategic value. It's not going to be a devastating blow to the internal security structure, but it's the most delicious thing Israel has done. Let me ask you this question here as we wrap up this portion with you.

But Israel knows there's a lot of people like you. Yeah. I don't think that was targeted for no reason. It was definitely targeted for – I say it has no strategic value. It has a political value. Yeah. It's –

It's a hope. It's a hope bombing. It's more than hope bombing, actually. Israel has been targeting internal security forces. Today, just a friend of mine in the IDF sent me something that they had earlier this week had not been reported. They had attacked internal security forces command headquarters in Tehran. Israel is doing its best to...

destroy Iran's capacity to crack down on unrest. And it is encouraging people to come out. Is that a new tactic from them? Yeah, it's the first time they're doing this. And you're getting a lot of messages via the various apps and so forth. Is that correct? Yeah, I have been. So what this has done is some people have changed their positions politically, but very few, most people

It has deepened the divide. People are more convinced of what they thought before, which means that about 80 to 90 percent of the population is against the Islamic Republic and they remain so. But those 80 to 90 percent are divided whether war is a good thing or a bad thing, this war.

However, two things to consider here. One is those who think that this is a bad thing, this war is a bad thing, is immaterial to the fact that when they come to the streets next time, it's not going to be as easy to suppress them. Number one. Number two is

So Iranians' understanding of war is first Iran-Iraq war, which was total war, and then our Iraq war and Afghanistan war. So those who had been against the war had something more like that in mind. This is completely different. So the low number of casualties has actually convinced many people that this is not as bad as they feared.

A lot of people are supportive of this. A lot of people are not, to be clear, but a lot of people, surprising number to Americans, not to me, are celebrating. Would you say it's a majority of the country? Are we not there yet?

plurality? It's plurality for sure. You always have your 15% undecided because that's human nature. Yeah, and also there are three camps, not just two camps. One camp is against the war, against the regime. One camp is for the regime and one camp is for the war and against the regime. So that last camp is probably the largest one.

Followed by the anti-war, anti-regime camp. We're running out of time here today. I'd like you to come back next week and talk about the messages you're getting from Iran. You and I will talk about that. Let me throw one last question before we go because it's timely. Yeah.

Is this now the time Donald Trump needs to get off the fence, release the GBU-57s and finish the nuclear program? Let me say one quick thing and I'll answer that. In four days in 2019, there were protests. Iran killed 1,500 people in four days.

Israel over a week has killed 250 people and a lot of them were targets, military targets, not. So even their war is much more humane than Iran. It's a tightly targeted campaign. But my point is that the regime is much happier to kill Iranians than Israel. Yeah, Israel. For your answer…

Yes, it's time for Trump to do that because I just had a piece out in the Middle East Forum if folks are interested to go and see it. One, it's a much cleaner operation. I've talked to quite a few of my friends who are military technical experts and they all say that there is a zero chance that a mob GPU-57 would not destroy the Fordow facility. Number one. Number two...

If we don't do that, Israel might have to send in commander units to go and blow it up from inside, which is not that clean cut. And they did that in Syria too, right? Somewhat like a mission like that in Syria. All right. Well, let's look. Let's get you back on next week, and I want to talk over what messages you're getting from Iran. Sounds good. So we're going to close the show with some happiness because you guys have all been a bummer today. Yeah.

Are you kidding? This is a great show today. Jeremy, let's get the Kylie's Corner theme song going here. So come and take a spin and listen.

So, Brennan Evans is again subbing for Kylie, who's flying back from a great European wedding. And she had two stories. One was on a mass murder. We'll have you do that another time. And Brennan, we found out today, is running for president. Yeah. 2028 presidential candidate Brennan. With all policy and song. It's going to be a musical. It's going to be a musical. But you have a little segment. Yeah, you're going to do a little happy segment. End us off on Lombaba.

Okay, I'm keeping it to the music niche because I'm going to let Kylie keep hers on the murder. So La Bamba, this is a pretty famous story. In early 1959, Richie Vallon, Buddy Holly, and J.P. Richardson were part of the Winter Dance Party Tour. It was a 24-city tour across the Midwest, and the tour schedule was brutal with long distance traveling and no proper transportation between cities.

The tour bus had no heating, so musicians were getting sick frequently, and it was just an uncomfortable situation. And Richie Vallon was only 17 years old at the time. He was about eight months into the limelight in the music industry. He had released several hits at this point and was a rising Latino star, pioneering the Mexican-American representation in mainstream American rock.

He actually had a fear of flying that he had as a child because he witnessed in 1957 an airplane crash near his junior high school in Pacoima, California. So how old was he at this time? I believe... Was he like 20, 21? No, he was a child.

Because he was 17 years old when this plane crash occurred, but he witnessed the one when he was in high school. So I think he was about a freshman, like 14. So three, four years earlier. Yeah. Yep. Okay. So he already had that fear of flying instilled. And yeah, including his friend died too in it. So-

Despite his fear, he had no choice but to fly due to the tour schedule. And on February 2nd, 1959, after a performance at the Surf Ballroom in Clear Lake, Iowa, Buddy Holly chartered a small plane to the next venue in Moonhead, Minnesota. And the plane only had three passenger seats. So Richie Valen won a coin toss against guitarist Tommy Smythe.

Yeah.

And then the pilot, Roger Peterson, he was not certified to fly. So they were already stepping into this under dangerous circumstances and with the poor weather conditions, they're asking for trouble.

But just a minute after takeoff, 1255 a.m. on February 3rd, 1959, the plane crashed into a frozen cornfield five miles northwest of Mason City Airport, and all four passengers were killed instantly on impact. Richie Vallon, Buddy Holly, the Big Bopper, who is...

J.P. Richardson and Roger Peterson, the pilot. And the news of the crash had just shocked the world. They referred to it as the day music died, which was a popularized phrase by Don McLean's 1971 song, American Pie.

But Richie Valen, like I said before, he was only about eight months into his career as a recording artist, you know, before his death, which is so sad. But he was eventually inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2001. His recording of La Bamba was added to the Library of Congress National Recording Registry for its cultural significance. And he remains a symbol of Latino pride, youthful talent, and the fragility of rising fame. What is a comparable...

comparison today of someone of Buddy Holly and Richie Valens talent. If we had an accent today. You're talking to the wrong guy because all my music is from 20 years ago. Who would it be? I'd say Modern Day.

This would be a big, I mean, it was a big deal. Today it would be on social media for three weeks and lots of tears. I think, I mean, one that was very similar. I mean, not recent, recent, but Michael Jackson, that was a big one that shook everybody up.

But they were both well-known. By the way, if you want to see this story, they did a brilliant movie about it with Lou Diamond Phillips as Richie Valens. It's a great movie. Such a good movie. It's a heart-jerker. I mean, it'll get you. Yeah, it's a sad one, but...

So, Brenna, thanks a lot. And you're recording this next week? Our Santa Has the Podcast theme song, which we're going to launch on July 25th? Yeah, be ready for it. Oh, well, we'd be ready. Christmas is coming early. Speaking of ready, here we have this amazing segment that everyone loves that they've been following for two years. Kylie Kippers, now Kylie Campbell. I mean, that's how long it's been. She's gotten married in the middle of it.

This started with Karen Reid. It did. If you remember, that was literally the first case. It started with Karen Reid. It started with Karen Reid. And Karen Reid was acquitted this week. I actually texted her at the wedding when she's over there. She was like, wow, right? So I'm sure she'll get into it next week. I did notice that the documentarian is not going to do any more stuff on her. He's like, yeah, story's done. So.

Folks, thanks for joining us this week. It was a great show. I cannot believe the pharmaceutical industry spent $36 billion on advertising direct-to-consumer. Oh, my goodness. Shea, thank you for sharing your story. I know that's very hard. Michael Diebert, again, does a great job. Have you seen some of the pharmaceutical AI spoof ads? Oh, no. Oh, my God. Those are brilliant. Everything about it. Because, again, when I watch it, even if I had those conditions…

It wouldn't sell me because a third of it is this is what we can do. The other two-thirds is this is how I'm going to screw up your life completely, utterly, even if you're having a good day, right? I don't see how people watch those and go like, that's for me. Well, folks, on behalf of Jeremy, Brennan, Shea, Sam, myself, and our guests today, thanks for joining us. You can follow us at BreakingBattlegrounds.vote or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks a million. Have a great weekend.