Interview: Marc Cherry: TV Icon and "Golden Girls" Writer
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Search Hay Day, that's H-A-Y space D-A-Y, in your favorite app store. Hay Day is a free-to-play mobile game and offers optional in-app purchases and random rewards. Cheesecake, we are so excited. We are sitting down via Zoom with the incredible Mark Cherry, who of course you know from Desperate Housewives and a million other credits Jen's going to tell you about. But tell them how he came into our lives. Well, Mark Cherry, turns out, is a fan of our podcast. I can!

He knows our good friend, Marco Panette. And when we asked Marco to do this, he said, oh, you know, my friend, Mark Cherry, loves your podcast and would love to talk to you. I said, are you kidding me? We both gay screamed like, like, like, like banshees. Y'all, he was a producer and writer for the original Golden Girls. And we're going to talk about some of our favorite episodes that he's responsible for. I mean, he wrote Journey to the Center of Attention. Patrick, you're giving it away. Sorry, sorry.

He also worked on the spinoff, The Golden Palace. And as Patrick said, you probably know him for creating Desperate Housewives. And for that, I just want to say he won two Golden Globes and was nominated for a number of Emmys. You get it, Mark. And recent shows, including some of my friends, you know, Devious Maids, Why Women Kill. I did a bunch of girlfriends on that show. Oh, yes.

I mean, he's just such a talent. I love Devious Bates, by the way. I was obsessed. Oh, I know. Yeah. I know. He's so talented. I love him. Listen, without further ado, why don't we welcome our friend, shall we? Get in here, Mark Cherry. Get in here. Get in here, Mark. Hiya, Cherry. Hiya, Cherry. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. Mr. Mark Cherry, is there any truth to the fact that you're an actual listener to our podcast? I have listened because TikTok made me listen. It figured out my algorithm and you guys started popping up.

And I became a little bit obsessed with it because I was a fan of Golden Girls before I wrote on it. And I have that extraordinary experience of being one of the few writers who you get to write on your favorite show. Yeah. That doesn't happen for every writer.

And what happened was, is your guys' podcast came up and you talk about the show like I talk about the show with my friends, not just the, "Oh, I like this episode," or, "Oh, it's so funny." You delve into who was that character actor and what was their life about? And I'm obsessed with that stuff. And I think true fans, the more you watch episodes and revisit them, the more questions you have about the people who came together and made this thing up.

And of course, what I can offer you is there's a little behind the scenes stuff that you, you know, you might not have heard about. And, uh,

I know where some of those bodies are buried. Well, that was one of the reasons why we wanted to make the podcast was, you know, I love podcasts in all its forms. I feel very lucky to be alive in like the golden age of podcasting. I feel like it's what I was born to do. But, you know, I love a recap podcast, but I love any recap podcast that gives more, you know, that's more than just talking about. So sort of, and now that we've got this wealth of

time has passed since the episodes came out and Jim Colucci wrote that incredible book that gives us so much of the backstory. And there are so many people still to talk to like yourself. That was our hope with the podcast. So I'm so glad to hear that you responded to that. I met Jim Colucci 30 years ago and he was an aspiring writer. And I think if, if I wasn't still on golden girls, I think I was on golden palace, but he found me. And I remember going to Jerry's deli on Ventura and,

and meeting him and talking to him. And we run into each other every once in a while. And I love that he, I was interviewed for the book. I love that he wrote it.

and memorialize that. And also let me say about the two of you, you guys have like Martin and Lewis level chemistry. I mean, you guys are great together. So well done on this matching. If I may, as a consumer of television and pop culture, you know, in my younger years, it was so interesting to know you as Mark Cherry of Desperate Housewives, you know? And so to then go back and rewatch The Golden Girls and see

your name there. It was like, wait, is that the same? That can't be the same guy. And then you do the research and you were like, oh my God, that's wild. And so would you mind telling us sort of your journey of the Golden Globes becoming your favorite show and then how you managed to make your way to the show? So I was at Cal State Fullerton in Orange County, which was my family's home base. We're originally from Oklahoma, but most of my life was spent in Orange County. And

And my last semester in college, 1985, and I graduated mid-year, I took some time off to tour early on, so I graduated mid-semester. But Golden Girls premiered. So I was in college when The Four Ladies premiered. On that first Saturday night, I was watching it with my friends.

And I loved it. So I was kind of a student of Golden Girls having watched, if not every episode, because back then, you know, if the VCR didn't work, you know, you would miss a Saturday night episode. Right. But I studied it. And what's super weird is when my best friend turned writing partner, Jamie Wooten, and I decided to become writers, we got on a little show called Homeroom.

uh on abc in june of 1989 um and uh mercifully that was cancelled because it wasn't a great show it was about inner city school children and us two white guys uh were not probably the best people to be writing for that but we wrote we met uh the people at the golden girls and we were hired to do a spec script so we got hired onto that what was fascinating walking into that room

is everyone else had been a working writer there for a few years.

Jamie and I knew more about the characters and their backstories than a lot of those writers, especially the producer, the new showrunner, Mark Salkin. He had taken over from the Kathy Terry Morton Berry, who had been the showrunners for the first four years. He had taken over in June of 89 for the fifth season. And Jamie and I came aboard January 2nd, 1990, and

And right from the start, they would be pitching ideas. I go, well, no, they did that in an episode or no. Blanche referenced that then. You were a walking show Bible because we talk about how there really was no show Bible because there's different writers. But you're a fan. So, you know, I knew. And and sometimes and it's interesting because, you know, you can there are interesting questions to be had of why certain characters got recast.

And one of the ones that upset me is they decided to recast Doris Bellack as Dorothy's sister for Dina Dietrich. And it's not that Dina Dietrich's casting didn't make sense because she kind of looked like Bea a little bit, but their attitude is, well, I didn't care for Doris. And I was like in the room going, what do you mean? Doris is great. Doris is Doris Bellack.

And there was a kind of a lack of respect of some of the decisions from the first four executive producers, their choices. And it's like, no, we're going to do it our way. And I, coming at it as a fan, was like, why are we making that choice? I don't understand.

I actually think now with the advent of not only streaming or having shows live forever, I think showrunners today are much more responsible about if we've established someone, we're going to try to stick with it unless the circumstances are extraordinary. But, you know, some of my the writers on there grew up in a too daring, unbewitched environment.

Oh yeah, for sure. Even I, even that meant something to me as a kid. Two Becky's on Roseanne. I mean. Well,

- Well, even the episode that we're doing today has a guest actor in it who played a different character one episode ago. So even something like that was like, oh, that's... He played a doctor in the previous episode and he played the dad of the little girl at the party in this episode. And it was featured in both, had several lines in both episodes. - Which actor are we talking about? Which episodes? - I can't think of his name now, but it's the... And then there was one where the baby gets left behind after the walkathon.

And then the previous episode was where Rose has the near-death experience and she goes to the hospital. And it's the doctor and then the dad of the little girl that gets up by. It's the same actor. You know what? And we did that with the guy who plays the piano when Blanche is sitting on the piano doing I Want to Be Loved by You. He played a guy in an airplane flight suit where they were jumping out of an airplane. That episode's not coming to mind. But that Don, I think was his name, and he was...

He was brought back. By the way, per nothing, apropos of talking about little weird things, when we did the episode at the Rusty Anchor where Bea sings, and Jamie and I came up with that idea because we were the two musical theater nerds in the room, there's an interesting quirk there, which is the piano is facing one way,

when Bea sings "What'll I Do?" Yeah. But it's facing a different way when Ru sings her song. The reason that happened is, I think it was Lex Passeris directed that episode, I think. When they were rehearsing on stage, they staged it so that the piano would be there so he could strike up a conversation with Bea. They didn't know that Ru was off and the piano had to face that in a different way because she had already rehearsed all of her movements. When I say rehearsed,

she knew where every pinky was going to be at every single second for that number. And, you know, you guys know TV shooting. I think she only required like two takes of that number and they, they had it down. I live in the rusty anchor in my head and hard hearted. Hannah is that maybe in the shower once a week. And so I,

I was going to ask you, what made you think of that? I guess you've answered it as a musical theater nerd, as well as another favorite episode. What made you think of Sonny and Cher? Did you know how funny they would look in those costumes? Well, here's the interesting thing. That was our first episode, An Illegitimate Concern. We wrote that. We weren't on staff.

So we David Himmelfarb, who is running development for with Thomas Harris, he had read our stuff when he while he was at Warner Brothers. And like he was literally had one foot out the door and he read our script. So he brought our script to with Thomas Harris. And you have to remember that in the late 80s, eight of the top 10 shows were sitcoms.

And it was the boom era of sitcoms. And Jamie and I, the way we kind of one of the things we did when we got in the business, we were in a performing group called the Young Americans.

And if you want to know more about the Young Americans, you watch Behind the Candelabra with Michael Douglas and Liberace because the Young Americans were featured in that because Liberace stopped sleeping with Scott Thorst and his chauffeur and hooked up with one of our tenors. And what becomes interesting is I was in that group. Oh, wow. Yeah. So what was funny was.

You know, Behind the Candelabra was the first time I saw a part of my life dramatized on television. I hope there's another at some point. We had come as performers and had grown up, you know, wanting to be, you know, in front of the camera. And when Jamie and I got our act together and said, I think Behind the Camera might be better for us.

We got into the Golden Girls and we knew that Bea was a singer. And like with the Rusty Anchor, we loved those kinds of episodes. So we went in to pitch a bunch of ideas. And the weird thing about that episode was Blanche finds out her husband has cheated was one of many A stories we pitched.

Dorothy and Sophia enter a mother-daughter pageant, which was something we had heard about. And that was one of several B stories. So Mark Salk and our boss just went, "Take that one, take that one, merge them." And what's funny is there's a lot of shows like Modern Family where I think their choices of their plots intertwining thematically or whatever, but this was in the old days. "Here's your thing, just put them together."

And so we had, we knew there was going to be a musical number and really what it came down to, because we weren't on the staff. We didn't know too much about the women themselves. We just went hype. All right. If they're going to sing together and it was Sunday, then the idea of Sophia being sunny and to be thing. And what was really great. You can hear Jamie, my writing partner laugh when the tosses her hair back, like share. You can hear Jamie is on the laugh track.

So every time I see that episode, I'm like, there's Jamie. Oh my Lord. Do you have any like encounters with any of the women that you can share with us? Good or bad? Well, first of all, all of the encounters were good. I love those ladies. They were all, here's what I'll say. That's interesting. They were all four wonderful women, but they,

If the four of them had ever been forced to live together, they would have killed each other. They were so different. We always said the joke of the writer's room was that the show was science fiction, that they could actually live together and survive. Anytime Dorothy and Rose go to do anything together, I get worried that one of them is not going to come out of it alive. Like, they go to the grocery store in this one, and I'm like, I don't want them in a car together. I'm very uncomfortable. You know, the interesting part about that is

Well, first of all, I love B. You know, Jamie and I were closer to B than any of the other actresses, possibly because our relationship with her extended past Golden Girls. B used to have a thing. She had a group of writers that she had befriended both on Maud and other things she had done. And then Jamie and I were lucky enough to be included in that so that any time that she did a special appearance, she would call up and go, I need some jokes.

And Jamie and I quite memorably got asked to help her out with the Jerry Herman tribute at the Hollywood Bowl. And so we like literally I always say that's the biggest laugh I ever got, because when we did it, the Hollywood Bowl was sold out. And I went to the show and I got to hear 12000 people laugh at a joke we did. And so that was pretty cool. So anyway, I was very closer to be than I was to the others, although had private moments with all of them.

The thing you got to remember about Bea is that she had an austere personality, but she was just so vulnerable on the inside. She was essentially a shy woman. Betty, who loved to be loved and was friendly with everyone. Also, when you got down to BreastTax, she knew who she was. And that was one of the reasons she was able to last in the business so long. So the, oh, I'm on this on the outside, but I'm this on the inside. The two of them were complete opposites.

And I'm actually one of the few people who have the nerve to say to be at some point. And this is while we were doing Golden Palace. B came over to get a couple of things we had written for her. And it was she had made a two show appearance on Golden Palace. So we had shot the first one that week. And this weekend was when B came over. So they were about to shoot the next one.

And so we're just chatting. And the thing, Jennifer, you'll appreciate this. The thing that was great talking about B is if you ever ask about like her early days as an actress, she would talk about going to the actor's studio for some of those sessions. And then she also did something that I've never heard.

heard of any of the old timers do she kind of talked about oh god we were so dumb back then i saw judith anderson do medea we thought it was so brave she was clutching her breast oh my god you know what overacting like so i got to hear b just dis judith anderson which is fantastic you know we're just talking about life or whatever and i i finally got the courage up to say

B, I don't understand. What's this thing with you and Betty? And B. Arthur's the first person I ever knew to use the word cunt in normal conversation. And she looked at me and she was, it was very well thought out what she had to say. She said, here's the thing about Betty. She's always got to be teacher's pet and it exhausts me. And she told of a story that happened that week where she,

They were rehearsing a bit and they got the script and there was something that the writers, a section that the writers gave them that Bea didn't think worked. And so she said to Betty, "Hey, Betty, I have an idea. Instead of doing this, how about we do this?" And she pitched the bit to Betty and Betty said, "Sure, let's give it a shot." So they did it at rehearsal. The writers and the executive producers, Paul Witt and Tony Thomas came down and we watched the rehearsal and that bit got crickets, nothing.

And so when they were giving the notes after, I think it was Paul Witt who said, oh, and that thing you guys invented there? I think let's go back to what the writers did. Let's try that. And Betty said, well, B had this idea and we thought we'd give it a try, but we're happy to go back to it. Now, everyone else went on with the notes and no one thought twice about it. But B is standing there going, you had to let him know it was my idea.

Now, in Betty's defense, I think if B had said to her, Betty, do you know what you just did? That really hurts my feelings. Betty would have apologized and it would have been a sincere apology because that's Betty. Betty is sincere. Yeah. That thing that she did, I think maybe she did it reflexively, but that's the thing that upset B. So when people talk about the fighting, there are some specifics to it that I think

are deserved. I think some of Bea's irritation with Betty was deserved. And yet on the same token,

I would be a little annoyed with B because I knew Betty and Betty was so sweet. It's like, this is the thing that happens in conflicts in real life where it's like, you know, if you just talk about it, maybe you guys can work this thing out. But after, you know, and this was of course, towards the end of the run after seven or eight years, some people are done talking and they just go different communication styles. And yeah. So that's my, that's, that's one thing that, that for a long time didn't come out.

You know, the famous story about the bathroom. Do you have you ever heard that one? This is pretty amazing. There was the women, I think, after we moved to the Renmar, they built them dressing rooms, actual dressing rooms that were right next to the soundstage with bathrooms so that the women, you know, because it was a big hit show and here's your private space. And as soon as you're done with the read through or rehearsal, here's where you can go to relax.

And the only dressing room I was ever in was Betty because I knew the woman who did her fan mail. So I used to come visit Lee and Betty and we would talk after some of the tapings. But one weekend, Betty came into her dressing room, which she had locked up on Friday night. So I guess this was Monday morning. She came back on Monday.

And someone had used her toilet. And the evidence of what had happened was there. Oh, no. Betty called security and went, what's going on with this? And it was more of a security concern. So what's funny is word gets to our writer's room. And you can only imagine, like, let me just say that it didn't take but about five minutes for Jim Vallely, who is maybe the funniest person I've ever worked with,

to start doing a pantomime of Bea Arthur eating a bran muffin and sneaking in to Betty's dressing room, which he pantomimed with great effort and detail. And so this was a room bit that we did to amuse ourselves. Ha ha, very funny. No one was thinking about it two days later.

Jamie and I go on, we get an overall deal over 20th Century Fox. And it was like two years after the show was over, and Jamie read something like from a German fan magazine of Bea defecated in Betty's dressing room. And it was like, no, that's a room bit. What are you saying? And we freaked out because Jamie and I were there when that bit was created. How did it get to the German fan magazine? I don't know.

I have no idea. How does any urban legend get started? Oh, man. The weird thing is that you guys don't know about it. This has been talked about like over the last 30 years. This has been out there in the ethos. Oh, my God. Possible it was her, right? Maybe?

It could have been. It could have been many people. With all due respect, Jennifer, I refuse to engage in speculation on that. Okay, great, great, great. Mark will be taking no further questions at this time. Exactly. At Sierra, discover great deals on top-brand workout gear, like high-quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery. 40,000 steps, baby!

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Hey Cheesecakes, Patrick here. Hey, I wanted to quickly let you know all of the cities I'm coming for the remainder of my tour. So here goes. In June, I'm coming to Boston, St. Louis, and New York City for Pride Weekend, my hometown show. Come, come, come, come, come. In July, I'll be in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, New York, Provincetown, Massachusetts, literally the gayest place on the planet, Charleston, South Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee. And then in August, I'm closing the show out in Charlotte,

Atlanta, Orlando, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, and then my final show on August 30th in London, United Kingdom. Cheesies, this has been one of the funnest things I've ever done in my entire life. For one hour, I get to make you laugh, but for the hour and a half before that, I get to hang out with you and have drinks as we all sort of get settled into the venue. And then after the show, for like another hour and a half, we do an after party at the bar. I get to meet

each and every person who comes to the show and chat for a little bit. And then you all get to meet each other. It's super, super fun. And it's one of the most meaningful experiences of my entire life. I am having such a great time.

You can find all of the date and ticket information at PatrickTours.com. It is a great thing to bring a friend or a partner to, but it is also great to come by yourself if you can't find anybody who you can convince this is going to be a great time. It's designed to make new friends. That is the whole point of this whole thing, and it's happening. So once again, PatrickTours.com for all of the remaining shows of my tour. Please come and meet me. Please come and meet each other. I promise you will not be disappointed. Okay, back to the show.

Back to the show.

Let's pivot, though. You've mentioned the Golden Palace before, and we had our good friend Marco Panett on. One of the things that came up, and Marco thought this could be a good theory as to why it didn't run as many seasons as its predecessor, was that maybe the audiences just loved seeing the house, that the house was an extra character, and that to be set at this hotel, maybe that was one of the... Do you have any thoughts on that? I do, and let me first...

start by saying, you know, all of us as writers start out, you've got your idea, you put it into execution. And occasionally, like with me, I work hard on every script I do. Desperate Housewives came out and blew the lid off of Hollywood. And it was a big deal right from the beginning. And I've written other shows that, you know, got a nice response, but certainly didn't cause, you know, a stir.

When Susan, I think what happened was, you know, Bea Arthur wanted to leave the show after seven seasons. You know, she loved theater. She had a lot of friends in London. She spent a lot of time in London. So she was just ready to travel more and do that kind of thing. And seven years is a good run. It was a longer run than Maud, which was, I believe, six seasons. So I think the artistic decision that Susan, Tony, and Paul made, and boy, I wish they had talked to the writers,

The artistic decision they made was to just try to keep the other three women together. How do we do that? Oh, do we take them out of the home?

I would say that Golden Girls, and I don't know how Susan would describe her take on the show, but from my vantage point, Golden Girls is a show that is trying to say, you know what, just because your husband dies or your husband leaves you doesn't mean you can't find love and laughter and adventure in your golden years. And it is a beautiful thing to say. I think mostly true.

And that truth is what anchored the show, especially, may I add, some of the episodes Susan wrote. I loved Susan's take on the Golden Girls because her episodes, much like...

you know, the episode where they're robbed, you know, really fit into the anxieties of, of older people. And, um, I thought Susan's work, um, very often, um, had a little bit more to say than some, some other people's take on, on the work. But when they got to golden palace, oh, you can, your husband can leave you or your, he can divorce you. And it's okay. Cause you can spend the rest of your lives working your ass off in a shitty hotel. I, I,

I don't know what that is. And we and the writers, because Susan, you know, she writes the pilots and then she goes and she wrote a few episodes of the Golden Girls, but she was never really on the writing staff, which is why, as you guys talk about the show, you should know that, you know, Kathy Terry and Morton Barry, they were called the Beatles when when I got got to the show, the four of them, that was their unifying name.

They, I think, sometimes don't get the credit they deserve for those first four seasons because Susan only used to pop in and do her work, which was terrific, but then she'd pop out again. They were there day to day. The Beatles were doing their thing.

And when it came to Golden Palace, you know, we in the writers room, the one those of us who knew we were coming back for the season, we started talking and the show we wanted to do. But again, we couldn't go tell Susan Harris, well, here's what you should do, because that just wasn't done.

We wanted to just follow Blanche and have Blanche go back home and maybe she's running her old family's estate as a hotel or whatever, but delve into her character and build like Frasier because Frasier had just come out. Look at how Frasier was taken and they built a show around that personality. And we felt of all the women,

Blanche's character had a lot of extra stuff to mine. And it would be fascinating putting that woman with like one of her sons. Yes. The, his hypersexual mother deal with things and then her with, you know, people coming in the hotel. Well, and it's like an episode that we're doing today and she's dealing with the fact that she'd never really got to parent her kids that like she, you know,

regrets not having been a better mother. So that would have been an amazing avenue to explore. Her daughter, Janet, at the end of this episode that we're doing. I remember that phone call and I think it's one of the best bits of writing they ever did on the show. I'm sobbing. Me too. And the truth is, because Blanche

after all is said and done, was a much more complex character than the other women because she was vain and selfish and she talked about her beauty and she was flirtatious. She could be dumb when you needed her to be, but when put in a dramatic situation, there was a truth to this woman

what was underneath all of that stuff. And Rue, you know, I think it was the most underrated actress of the four. Incredible. I just, I just loved her. So the interesting part for us is, you know, Golden Palace is always a little bit painful for me because I don't think it was good for the women.

Now, there were moments and scenes I remember writing that we had fun and there were some really good jokes and it was lovely to be a part of a young Don Cheadle's career. Yeah. By the way, he walked in the door and I've told Don this a few years ago.

We didn't like Susan's sides that she wrote for the character. The pilot wasn't done yet, but we had to start casting. And they had all these young black actors come in and were reading these sides and they didn't work. They weren't funny. And Don came in and made us laugh. Only got to make us laugh and went, OK, well, that just got obvious. And, you know, you know, for what it's worth.

He had it, even at that age. He just had everything you threw at him, he could do. He was terrific. Did you ever talk to Rue about any of this? Was she aware that that was an idea? You know what? We would have been shot if we had gone to Rue about that. Jamie and I, as a matter of fact, there was a rotation of the writers. So they did the thing, and then your turn came up again. And...

Jamie and I had our idea about Rue on the piano and all of that, and it had sort of gotten approved. But then Mark Salkin was going to put us up earlier in the rotation, and Jamie went to Rue and said...

Oh, we have this terrific idea, you know, competition with you and B and the Rusty Anchor. We have this idea, but it looks like they're going to make us do this other episode. And Rue went to Mark Salkin and went, I want Mark and Jamie doing that episode. And Mark Salkin was not happy that he was being dictated to by Rue. And I did not know Jamie had gone and said that to Rue. So I'm getting called onto the carpet along with Jamie by Mark.

And as it turned out, like Mark had to write that episode. Like suddenly he was on the chopping block and he was the showrunner. So Mark only usually did about two episodes a year. Um,

you know, cause it takes a lot of energy and or whatever. And he had a job to do. Yeah. So I went, when we went up to the office, our office, I said to Jamie, you went to Rue and told her that why? And he said, cause I knew she'd want to do the episode. And I was like, oh my God. You didn't say you didn't do what Betty White did. You didn't say, well, it was not his idea. I did not throw him under the bus. I was too stunned and scared because I didn't like, I didn't want Mark Salkin was a really good boss and,

Yeah, the boss. He was very kind.

to us. And I really like Mark. I, and I understood why he was upset, but that being said, I was glad that Mark took that one episode and then Jamie and I moved on to the next one. So I was going to say it's generations of gay men and drag Queens. Thank you for that. Because we can't like the golden girls cannot exist. I'm literally, I'm touring right now with a show that about a night that I spent with the Arthur and she basically just got drunk and was mean to me the whole night. And I was just like obsessed and like in love with her. And I have this drag performer playing the Arthur and,

and he does, what do I do at the end of the show? That's kind of like how it closes. And his name is Jason B. Schmidt. He's amazing. But like, you know, it's part of his act. He does the Bea Arthur act, you know, in his troupe as well. And it's that episode, Jen and I were talking before we started. It's so iconic. I can't, I'm sorry that y'all got in trouble, but I'm so glad that that episode exists. The other thing that's really weird about that episode, if you ever count it, I think Betty White has like,

12 lines in it because because she wasn't really you know a part a big part of the either storyline and it's a tribute to betty she didn't complain yeah some there are some tv actors if they don't get a certain amount of lines they're like you're not using me enough

Betty was old school. Like she did what she was told. And her attitude was probably, oh, if I'm not in much in this episode, there'll be more for me next week. She was, and that's one of the things I loved best about her. So as you know, Mark, we discussed this. We like to ask all our guests, which golden girl would you say you are? And which golden girl would others who know you say you are? You had mentioned in our pre-interview that you might be asking this question. And I did some deep thinking about it.

And because the truth is, I look at different parts of my life and different groups of people that I'm with. And I think I've been all the women depending upon who I'm with, because I have an aspect of my personality where if someone tells me a story, I just believe it because it doesn't occur to me to lie.

And yet, you know, having been in show business a while, you know, with some you meet some self aggrandizing characters and, you know, whatever. And so there's been very often I've said to someone, well, I heard such and such. And someone's like, no, that didn't happen at all. I'm like, oh, because I did. So there's times when I felt pretty naive and dumb. I like to think of myself as.

as Bea Arthur in terms of, I just want calm. I want sanity. You know, that's, that's how I want, I want to perceive myself. But also, you know, I've been Sophia where I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to say the thing everyone's thinking, but no one has the guts to do it. And I'm just going to say it. So I have those moments. And then I like to think that, um, like I hope with most gay men, when I've had the opportunity, I have been a little blanched.

And it's kind of weird that we entered into a world where slut shaming is decried because what we did on Golden Girls with that show, I look and I go, we weren't exactly slut shaming. I think in many regards, we were slut celebrating. Totally. And it was because Rue, as Blanche, owned her sexuality so much that it allowed her friends to

Call her out like, come on, you're just ridiculous with this stuff. And it's funny because one of the runs that I wrote for an episode, and I was kind of ashamed of it because it's kind of a cheap bit of writing, but I wrote the whole run of...

Come on, Blanche. She's not a slut. She's the slut. That is one of the most genius. That's in my show. And if I can tell you, we have people screaming that monologue at the TV. Everybody knows it. It is iconic. The grand poobah of slutdom. Because it's like you just know by saying the word slut again and again, it's going to you're going to keep getting laughs on it. And I got to use grand poobah in it and all of that.

And I didn't feel good about like I'm going, well, I'm repeating the word slut a lot. And it was so and I kind of thought that they were it wasn't they were the writers going to change it or something. And I think we added whatever the line is you when Blanche says you take that back the line that was added because Rue needed to sit back down again.

Because she called Dorothy calls Rose the easiest woman in this room. You take that back. So that yeah, that couplet was put in because Rue needed she she stood up and then she needed to sit back down. So that was the only change that was made to the scene, as I remember it.

But it's funny because people who appreciate the show will talk about that run. And I'm like, of all the things I wrote, that gets this much attention? The slut is dead. Long live the slut. I mean, I'm sorry, Mr. Cherry. I have to disagree with you. I know you're one of the great writers of our time, but that is Shakespearean what you wrote. How many people did she kiss? 56? 56. You had 56 boyfriends? You can have a boyfriend without going all the way. You can't.

You cannot. I mean, it is uttered. It is so true. How did we ever get you as a guest? This is incredible. I know. Jesus Christ. Because I've been secretly watching you guys for like a year. So the funny thing is when I went to see the first preview of Death Becomes Her,

Marco and I went out for dinner and stuff. And I actually said to him, oh, I want to meet Jennifer Samardin to talk about her podcast. So I'm so touched. I do want to before I forget, I also want to thank you, Mark, for being vulnerable to talk about Golden Palace and to echo as the fellow artist.

And artists, I would argue, Patrick, with your acting in your show and then podcasting and all of us creative types know what it's like to throw the spaghetti on the wall and having none of the noodles stick. Right. And that's being brave. And artists, I think, are some of the bravest people out there, whether you're a writer or a painter or a singer or you know what. It's just.

You have to try. And I'm so I think that we learn from all of our, quote unquote, successes and quote unquote failures because nothing's really a failure in my book. Well, I think that's true. I've learned, as I say to people, I learned a lot more from the second season of Desperate Housewives than I did the first. The first, I guessed right a lot of times.

Had some good people on the staff helping me to guess right. But the second season, for a variety of reasons, some involving some backstage drama, you know, the second season of Desperate Housewives is not nearly as artistically successful as the first.

And yet I treasure it in its way because I go, oh, okay, well, that's where I learned not to do this. And that's where I learned not to do that. And you're right is that the audience, with all due respect to the audiences who we love, who give us a reason to go to work,

They might not enjoy something, but I go, you can have whatever reaction you want to that. But that was necessary for my journey. And you just take that attitude with it. And sometimes I'll read notes on a Reddit thread or, you know. Oh, don't do that, sir. Yeah. Some people will talk about the show and they'll make an assumption about how something was created or they'll think, oh, this

This writer was talented and that writer wasn't. And as previously discussed with Jennifer, some of my best jokes are in other people's scripts because it was part of the writing process where we would punch up the script. And so very often Jamie and I would be handed a scene and we often do it. And like Mitch and Richard and Tracy and all those guys. So the weird thing for me is that...

I'll see an episode and I'll go, oh yeah, I wrote that. And I'll even forget. I'll go, oh, this was, that was Tom's episode. Okay, that's so funny. And you forget. And it was a glorious part of the process because I had episodes in the Blanche's brother brings home the guy he's going to marry episode. It was Tracy Gamble who we were working on what that moment was when the woman comes to the table. And it was Tracy Gamble who yelled fire

you know, like to, so that to get her out of the room and, you know, God love Tracy's got more than a few jokes in my scripts and Tracy Gamble. He was a terrific, just a help in those clutch situations where you're trying to find something that will move the scene in a different way. So for me, I just always want the fans to know, honor, honor the entire writing staff. Cause just cause it says written by, it was a collaboration. Susan Harris,

Not so much. Susan came, she did her own episodes and the writers

you know, we're kind of told hands off, Susan will handle this. But for the rest of them, we were all pitching in. I love that. Mark Cherry, will you come back and do more episodes with us? I would be honored to. Oh, this has been, I just have a million more questions, but it feels like a good place to stop for now. Well, you know what? Thank you guys. This has been such a joy to talk to you about the show. So the interesting part about working on that show is for the most part, Rue was professional. Betty was sweet.

Estelle was like everyone's favorite Jewish grandma. But it was Bea who invited us to her house and was insisting I drink alcohol with her. She wanted me to be her drinking buddy, and I didn't drink.

That was another adventure where Jamie and I were, I was giving Jamie my drink under the table so he could drink it because I don't drink alcohol. And then by the time we left B's house, Jamie was snonkered because, you know, he just had two shots right in a row. So it's like, you want to, you want to share those humanizing stories with them and always done with love and respect and affection because they were, they, those golden girls were indeed golden. You even end an interview like a writer. It's just perfect. It's just,

Perfect. I bring my own buttons. That's exactly it. This was such an honor. Thank you so much. I look forward to getting to shake your hands in public because I'll be coming to New York very soon. And Jennifer, congratulations on everything that's going on with Death Becomes Her. It's your...

a work of art in that show and i'm just so impressed and i'm glad i feel that that that this is not your moment this is the moment before your moment because now everyone's discovered you and there are even greater things on the horizon oh thank you mark what a what a blessing thank you so much and have a beautiful weekend you too thank you guys

Oh, Mother Cheesecake. That was so much fun. Mark Cherry is... Listen, I said it during the episode and I'm saying it here again. How in the age did you get this incredible artist on our show? We're so lucky. We're so lucky. Sometimes we're lucky.

times do we meet people like this I'm afraid they're gonna be mean or something I don't know don't you inherently get the impression he's just a really good person and that everybody around him just wants to like he's busy every day because everybody always wants to hang out with him he's just so nice I know so nice and I just appreciated his respect for everyone that he

talking about and I really I love you Mark Cherry. Am I in love with Mark Cherry? You might be. Look Cheezys don't get jealous but he told us two stories that we are not allowed to air but we know them and they're amazing. I love you Cheesecakes. I love you more than Patrick. I do. She loves you more than me. But you know what? Love us both. Come join the Facebook group. Yeah. Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast discussion group. Mother cannot be bothered to remember. It's a lot of words. No. You know what happened? I apologize. I've just gotten back into Facebook and my computer wasn't letting me log on.

Yeah, but I figured it out. I had to do like security, like Facebook wanted secondary authentication and I kept messing it up. It's because you're too famous now. I guess so. You need all the authentication. Facebook's like, that's not really you. It couldn't possibly be. It can't be me, Jennifer Samard. Even Facebook's going to write a sitcom for you. All right. Well, we love you, Cheezies. All right. Bye. Bye.