Becoming Toby | "Toby" (305) with special guest Director Chris Koch
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into Season 3, Episode 5, Toby. As Kate and Toby receive good news about their pregnancy, Toby's mental health continues to spiral. Meanwhile, Randall struggles to connect with the community during his campaign for city councilman, and Kevin meets a Vietnam vet who once knew Jack.

What's up, gang? Hello. How we doing today? Doing great. We're always delighted to be in each other's company, but we have even more special company with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, the director of Toby, one of our favorite directors of all time, Mr. Chris Koch. How's it going, buddy? Welcome. We had a huge crowd of applause. I had seen that. Koch, outside of Olin,

I think you've directed the most episodes of This Is Us. Yeah, how many episodes did you direct? I think I did 11. Really? Yeah. Only 11? I know. It feels like you did 25. Yeah. I know that. How many did Olin do?

- More. - 40 something. - No, is he up that high? - No. - Guys, six seasons and he- - He doesn't have the energy. He doesn't have the energy for that. - He doesn't have the energy, but he did. - I should've just lied. I should've said, I think I did all of them. - Oh, 32, 32, 32. - 32. - 32 episodes for Ken Owen. - How many did I do?

She's looking it up right now. How's my career going, by the way? It's going great. As our producer Sam is looking this up, talk to us, your history with Dan, because you did shows of his prior to This Is Us. Right. Yeah. Dan and I had done a... Dan was...

And I had done a bunch of comedies together. We did a crazy pilot called Lipschitz Saves the World with Leslie Nielsen. And a young Ty Burrell. Pre-modern family days. We had a blast doing that. We'd done a crazy basketball pilot.

And then we did a show called The Neighbors together for a few seasons at ABC, which then dovetailed into a show Dan created called Galavant. Yes. Musical, yes. Which was a crazy musical. Alan Menken did the music. And then that dovetailed into a show called Grandfathered. So we just had this nice run of doing some really fun stuff.

But I had always been in comedy. Yeah. And then Dan did pitch and This Is Us the same year. And he was like, "Kach, why don't you come do some drama?" I'm like, "They're not gonna let me do drama. I'm a comedy guy." You know how they are. I do. And they are the network executives who I love. They're wonderful people. Should we name them? Yeah.

Yeah, so anyway, thanks to Dan, he got me involved in doing this show, and it was phenomenal. Did you do a pitch as well? I did a pitch, and then I, in the same year, I came over and did one with you guys. Your first This Is Us was which one? Do you remember? Birthday Party. I was just about to say the Birthday Party. Yeah, which was crazy. Yeah. It was a lot. And I hate kids, so...

- I was just gonna say, jumping into our show, you've jumped into like three different birthday parties. - Which shows just how good you are. - Was it fun for you? Like, did it feel like a departure from comedy with regards to pursuing the drama or did it feel the same?

I think it's easier in some regards to do drama than comedy because I'm not chasing why it's not funny. Sure. What's the joke? What's the alt? You know, there's that kind of thing. Yep. But so, and it's a joy to work with actors like you guys where, you know...

pretty much within three or four takes, we have what we need and we move on. And then sort of the style of shooting it with Yasu and how it's sort of got a free flow handheld style is very forgiving and, and, uh, and fast and fun. So, um,

I don't know, it's, I found it really freeing and enjoyable to be in the drama space. That said, it's kind of funny that like there was so much comedy in the show. - There was. A lot of levity. - We keep talking about that. - A lot of people forget that sometimes we got some yucks. - Oh yeah. - With every character. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. That was that. - That's it, I'm done, right? - You're done. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much for coming through, Koch. We appreciate you. Okay, talk to us a little bit. Let's talk about this story. - Yeah, let's get into it.

Mandy and I were saying just before, we love sort of like the one-name episode titles. Like, I think we only have a couple. There's a Miguel, and there's a Toby. Way later. Way later in the series. Way later. But season three. Season three. We get a Toby. We get a Toby. That's right. What everyone's been waiting for. Finally. What were the other titles? Like, they were...

- Well, if it's about a character. - They're all artsy. - Right. - Like we have Beth has the- - Little Island Girl. - Little Island Girl. And if it's one of the three of the Pearson children, it's either titled "One, Two, Three," something like that. - This was gonna be loud mouth bald guy. - Listen. - And just- - And they were like, "Maybe just Toby." - That's rude. - Just to give you, I mean, Chris Sullivan is consistently

Outstanding. Yes. In this television show called This Is Us. And for his character to have an episode that focuses on him, long overdue, or what have you. Yep. But you shine, brother. That's very kind. Thank you so much. You shine in the most beautiful way. And I know you guys were talking about this a little bit before. Like, the sort of attention to detail with regards to being off your medication. Yeah.

and sort of not feeling like yourself, right? There was nothing about it that felt overplayed. And I say this all the time because Brown overplays everything, especially in This Is Us. But on purpose. I would say the opposite. Would you? The opposite. I would say I have a degree in theater and a minor in overacting. I found it so just there was this internal tension

knowledge of, I know I need to move. I know I need to be present. I know I should be doing something. Taking care of my wife. You could see it in your head. And then there was just this physical manifestation, but I can't. I can't move. I know what I'm supposed to do, but I don't physically know how to do it. So because of that, I just will be still. That was incredibly arresting to me to be like, oh, this poor guy is

He wants to, like you can see it, but he just can't do it. So I'm curious because you guys were having a little bit of a conversation about like

how upbeat or down you want it to. So I'm sure you did different takes with regards to this thing that I'm talking about. Talk to me a little bit about navigating it. Do you remember? Well, I will say that when I found out you were directing this episode, I was over the moon. Yeah. I was so excited. You, of all the directors that we worked with on this show, are the most...

Well, I can only speak from my experience. The most Chris Sullivan friendly. I was going to say actor friendly. I don't know everybody else's experience. I concur. Actor friendly, for sure. But you and I hit it off. We have a very similar sense of humor. We have a very similar rhythm, which I hope you're not offended by me saying. I'm into your rhythm method. My rhythm method. And the same haircut, you know, same type of stuff.

But I was just, you know, this was going to be, I knew this episode was going to be a heavy lift and I was so glad that you were. Oh man. Well, thank you. And of course the episode kicks off with, with your least favorite, uh,

which is children yeah uh right that little that little boy i forget his name and we have his name his name is dylan oh right gage he was so good he was fine yeah yeah little rodney dangerfield we're doing little rodney danger it starts off with him just sort of like doing lines from ghostbusters

And you see the beginnings of Toby. Like, Toby is a nerd. You know what I'm saying? He's got his own homemade... What do you call these things? What is it? Blasters? The flux capacitor? Whatever it's called. Proton blasters? Proton blasters. Excuse me. He's got the goggles on. And you think he's just being silly. And then in the background, you see...

he's just trying to drown out the noise, right? His parents are arguing, played beautifully by Wendy Malek and Dan Luria. And he's just trying to find a way to escape from it. Later on, you see he's laying in bed and he's got the fan blasted and his mom comes in like, "Why do you have the fan on?" And he's just laying in bed,

Just trying to find some sort of sense of peace or solace, but his parents aren't really allowing him to have that, right? Your comedy background must help with kids. In my head, it seems like it would translate. Is that true? Yeah, I guess. I mean, I actually had started doing Nickelodeon stuff.

Really? Yeah, I did a little show. Well, my start was on a show called The Adventures of Pete and Pete. Oh, my gosh. We've talked about this. We've talked about this. Yes. Which is funny because now, you know, sort of folks of a certain age grew up on that show. Oh, yeah. So when I did Workaholics, those guys all grew up on that show. Gotcha. Okay. You know, so that was a great way to get started. So I was in that kind of kid world for a while.

And so, yeah, like I know kind of how to work with kids, but, you know, to be honest with you, the casting on this show was so great. Sure. It's not like I had to do it. Tell us about this kid. Yeah. Because he comes out the gate swinging. He just, well, you know, the thing is you just like let him play himself, right? It's not like he did something and I was like, oh, do this differently. Like he just was dialed in.

Really? Yeah. You know, I mean, he's very, he just, you know, he's just very subtle and very powerful and in his quietness. Yeah. Which is great casting, right? Because that's how you're playing it. Right. And he doesn't know that going in, really. He hasn't hung out with you. How much time do you spend with that kid before the episode? I've never met him. Exactly. That's my point.

Dylan, if you're out there, let's hang out, bro. Have you even watched the show? Which show? Which show are you talking about? Paradise? Love it. It's fantastic. Don't tell me how it ends. Have you seen this guy in the shower? I can't stop. I cannot stop. How much Rodney Dangerfield was that kid first to watch? How many takes did he have? The kid's like, who? We fast forward a little bit and there's clearly...

parental discontent that's happening in the Damon household or whatnot. Mom's getting away. Little brother's crying. He's a baby, right? At this point in time. And Toby's going, they're clothes shopping. Toby goes to get a jacket. And he's like, Toby, you don't need a sports coat. He's like, of course I do. I got to work on my Dangerfield. And he says, I just met my wife. Oh, me and my wife have known. No, I'm messing up the joke.

My wife and I have known each, no. - My wife and I were happy for 20 years that we met. - Thank you. - That's right. And the kid nails the joke, unlike Sterling K. Brown. But it was so funny and endearing to, you see Wendy sort of light up and be like, you're a special boy, Toby. Like you see that he has a light about him that is able to sort of like lift people up. Even though what we see in his youth is like a lot of just

darkness and sadness too at the same time right um and it sort of becomes this thing of this this man that we get to know and love in the present because we didn't find out until the end of season two or beginning of season three that he took the medication sure we find out at the beginning of season three but at the the flash at the end of 218 as we see him sort of in bed just comatose not and kate mentioning that there she talked to the doctor and they're gonna

try to figure out his correct dosage of medication or something. So it's in season three that we find out that he's been taking antidepressants so that he doesn't just cry in his pillow all the time and is able to stay upbeat. But I do think that it is illuminating seeing the manifestation of where his humor kind of comes from. Like there is that light to him, but also it to me felt like this is his way of sort of trying to brighten his mom's day as well. Like she's sad, she's overwhelmed and it's,

it becomes, you know, a tool in his toolbox, like further down the road. I mean, you are the levity of our show. A lot of funny people have a history. Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah. Comes from a very dark place. Trying to brighten the mood in their life. Go to the Comedy Cellar in New York at midnight. Yeah. Pretty evident. See a group of people all with the same mom. Who else here hates their mother? Yeah. I mean, you love her, but you love to hate her. Anything?

- In the present day with you and Kate, so we're eagerly anticipating what's gonna happen with the- - Embryos. - With the embryo. - The viability of these embryos. - The first thing we see on the door, she has eight is enough, right? With eight each up there. And then we find out that three of them are viable. - Yeah, three amigos. - So we go to the three amigos. And then eventually off the phone, we see that one,

has taken, right? The Three Amigos picture was creepy, though. Yeah. It was a little creepy. A little bit, yeah. With the little sombreros on. Yeah, and the weird little... I mean, the cultural appropriation is astounding. I don't know if we could do it today. Yeah. Not sure how it holds up. No. There is, but they're warning... One remains. Toby's warning, like, we're not going to take a pregnancy test because that causes stress, and what we want is to maintain...

Calm environment. You know what I'm saying? And so they split up for the day. She's going to stay busy. Yeah, stay busy. Kate's got a Deligram. Is that what we're? I guess that's a thing. Yeah. A singing and Deligram. Part of her singing job is singing a Deligram. Let's all like, just to just give Mets her credit or whatnot. Like, you don't just step into Adele. No, no.

You know what I mean? Like the writers have to say like, oh, you can handle it though. Yeah. The first time like I met Chrissy or whatnot, she said like, sometimes I do karaoke. I'll do like The Greatest Love and stuff. I was like, oh. Oh, Whitney. Just Whitney? You do a little Whitney. Cool. So that's just a little bit about me. Did she have a singing career then? No. No. No. No. I think it all sort of

kind of came about at the same time. Yeah. This kind of gave her that confidence of like, you know what? I'm going to go for it. Yeah, because she was amazing. I remember we were doing takes. I was like, wow, wait a second. Girl can sing. She can sing. What is Toby doing with his time?

Well, Toby makes a run to the pharmacist. Yes, that's what I'm doing. Cueing you up here. Makes a run to the pharmacist. Like, so here's the deal. I went off my meds and today we find out if it took. And if it took, then I want to get back on my meds. I'd like to get back on my meds. As soon as possible. As soon as it's really possible. And the doctor was like, and the pharmacist was like, you probably should go talk to your doctor. Yeah, I can't just give it to you. You have to call the doctor and enter on it into the right way, right? But it's clear that he has gone wrong.

than he should have, right? Without his medication. Sure. So instead of doing that, he goes to an arcade. Did we ever say what you were taking? Antidepressants. Antidepressants, right. Yeah, antidepressants. Goes to the arcade. Maybe antipsychotics. I don't know. He goes, and so we do have a few flashbacks too because, hold on, let's shout out hair and makeup or whatnot. I want to talk to you a little bit about the different looks of Tobias. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about Bruce Willis as Castaway. Right. Yeah.

You guys, that is Bruce Willis if he were in the movie Cast Away. A little bit. I kind of thought more like Yacht. It was a little Yacht Rock. Very Yacht Rock. Well, that was the shirt because the shirt, well, I mean, Cast Away and Yacht Rock are very adjacent. For our viewers who haven't watched the episode, there's a wig that has like just the front sprout and like the side growth and whatnot. It's like, oh man, he's holding on to it. He's holding on to it.

He's really let himself go. Yes. You see him in therapy and he's sitting there. I remember. I remember.

You know, your Netflix algorithm does strange things sometimes with the key art. They're switching it around all the time. And the last time I turned it on to watch some of these episodes, it was Toby sitting in therapy with this huge beard and my Bruce Willis on castaway hair. Are you serious? And I turned it on. I was like, oh, Jesus. I would never get that. That's amazing. I turned it off. I turned it off. But I didn't turn it off before Bear was able to like...

What was that? What was that? It looks like daddy. Nothing. Don't worry about it, bud. Don't worry about it. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

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Is it, we see the divorce, you breaking up with Josie. Yes. Right? And you sort of pleading with her, like, I'll get medication, whatnot, I'll be okay. And she's like, I can't live like this. She'd had enough. She'd had enough, right? Which is enough of... Sad sack bullshit. Yeah. So let's go... Matt comes back around with your dad. Let's go back again, because even earlier, you see dad is leaving the house.

Right. Dan Laurie is leaving the house or whatnot. He's talking to Toby. He's like, look, man, I tried as much as I can. But like, you got a lot of your mother in you and you got to figure out what to do with this crap because this whole sad sack thing, that's not going to work. And again, reminded what you say to your kids, man, that that shit means something. So try to have some intention behind it. Absolutely. Yeah. And also just a reminder of like how how lucky we are.

to be living in this modern day, where as modern men, we can even address these issues. - Sure. - Right. - Like, that dad didn't have access to therapy, antidepressants. - No. - His feelings. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - He was about as callous as he could be with that message to his boy, right? - There's something that didn't make that scene. Do you remember? It didn't make the cut, but at the end of the shooting, do you remember what you let me do? - No. What'd I want you to do?

You said, hey, I'm going to roll. Do you want to tear down those curtains? Oh, really? Do you remember that? That doesn't. Oh, so I was thinking of like Martin Sheen in Apocalypse Now in the hotel room. She leaves and you let me destroy the set. Oh, my God. I do remember that. You let me destroy the set. Wow.

Yeah, and didn't make the cut. I'd like to see that footage. I would like to see that. We could get a hold of it. It's been destroyed. Wait, real quick. This is funny, though. For you, because you've done so much with Dan, do you feel like he changes your cuts dramatically from yours to his? He destroys them. Really? Legitimately? Unbelievably so. No, no, no, no.

You should see his cuts. No, Dan is a creature of the edit room. I mean, I'm always, I've just, it's great to watch Dan work because I really feel like the editorial process is the next pass of writing. Yeah. And, you know, we would overshoot. Sometimes we would overshoot. And so what ends up getting sort of

you know, sort of molded into that final episode. But I was always happy with the cuts. Yeah. You know? Well, I think that's part of the job is to give options, right? And even, we've said this before, the scripts are normally 48 pages long. 55 sometimes. 50 pages sometimes. Yeah. We know you only go and get 42. Yeah. Right? So you shoot what you shoot and then they sort of

Would you know oftentimes when you were shooting, like, yeah, this is probably not going to make it in my cut? Yeah, you knew because I would do one take and go, great. Wow. I'm like, let me think back. I can remember some of those. Sometimes I'd cut before you were done and go, we got it. We got it. We got it. I do remember you saying that for you. No, no, no. Like that one take and me tearing my room apart. I mean, look, like Dan and I have worked together for a long time. And he's also very respectful of like, he knows if I'm doing a thing or if I'm shooting a thing and he's protective of that. Yeah. But I have worked on shows.

that shall remain nameless, where you... I can't watch a cut afterwards because it does get butchered. Yeah. Because...

Because sometimes some shows they're thinking-- they're not thinking of it maybe visually. It's just more line cuts. Yeah. And so that can be frustrating, obviously. So I don't always watch stuff back. What is it like for you to step into shows? Like, obviously with our show, you got established and were around for, I mean-- The whole time. The entirety of it, right? The episodes that you did were spread out over all the seasons.

but to step into a show for an episode or two, what's that? What is that like when there's an established, I don't know, uh, uh,

- Rhythm. - Rhythm or community on that set. - Yeah, it's always, like I do prefer if I like create a show and then producing it, like it's more like, you know, doing a feature where you're kind of in for the whole run. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So, you know, it's always like first day of high school feeling. - Yeah. - You know, getting to know everybody and I mean, this was such a lovely, happy set. I've been very fortunate that I've been on a lot of really happy sets that are nice places to be. - Nice, comfortable. - And there are some that aren't, but. - Yeah.

But yeah, it takes about, I don't know, when it's your first day of shooting, it takes about, I don't know, half a day until I feel comfortable getting to know the crew, getting to know everybody, getting to know the style of the show, getting to know the pace and all of that. And it's also tricky with a show like this one

where I didn't always know where the season was headed. - Got it. - So that was always tricky, 'cause like, you know, with your character, I knew as much as I could know at that point. But you sometimes might even know more than I do. And so sometimes I'd be watching how you'd be playing something, and I would be kind of-- I'd just get caught up in the performance, because I wouldn't know necessarily what--

where it was headed or why you were having such a reaction to a moment, which is always interesting. Fascinating. It sounds like I just didn't do my homework. I know.

sometimes there's no homework to do yeah i want one because you came in in season one did you watch every episode yeah it wasn't on the air was it uh no but i get them so no no yeah you watch everything so you watch everything and if and if they haven't been shot yet you read everything okay especially with a show like this um or i've been working dan's had me uh working with him on murders yeah same thing okay but that's a crime thing so it's all about the

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Sure, sure, sure. You gotta put those puzzle pieces together. - Oh, it's literally like, oh, can you just shoot that little box of fish poison for two seconds? What do you mean? I mean, not fish poison, rat poison. You're like, oh, well, it'll matter later. - Don't worry about it, Tash. - Don't worry about it. Just put the camera on it. - And roll. - And roll, yeah. - Don't forget to get the rat poison. - Yeah. - Let me continue with the arc because we got Kate.

goes to do her a telegram. And the guy who sort of brought her in was her friend Donnie. They were like thick as thieves for the longest time. Donnie would be around all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she goes, she kills it, obviously, what have you. And she talks a little bit about the role that music plays in her life. Because she's like, what are you doing here? And she's like, you know, paying like half a gas bill or something like that. And he's like, you're really good.

And she says, "When sad things happen to me, I tend to-" - Put music away. - Put music out of my life, right? And he says something to the effect of, "I hope you stay happy." And she says, "Me too," because we know that she's waiting to find out if this pregnancy is viable, if it's taken.

i'm exactly the opposite go when i'm sad is when music comes back i mean that is the typical yeah i think response and that's the only time i've written music like yeah we're out yeah yeah there's catharsis and like being able to put pen to paper and like yeah pour your feelings out hard to hard to sit down and pen a sad like a ballad when you're

- Everything's going great. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know what, it's interesting though, because I tend to agree with you guys, but like to play advocate of the opposite side, I feel like there are certain people that when sadness comes, there's a part of them that feels as if they don't deserve happiness. And so they actively remove anything that could bring happiness. - Make them happy. - Exactly. And I think that maybe Kate,

Right? As someone who just, when sadness was happening, she's like, do I deserve to be happy? Also, I think there is a deep association with music and her father in that time and not going to school and not sending in her tape. Right, right, right. There's a very tricky relationship with music in general that she's still fighting to sort of overcome. Yeah. There's the seed germinating there in terms of where she moves forward through with her life or whatnot. But they come back, oh, you're at the...

Arcade, clearly you've been hogging. What game do you think you've been playing? I look like a centipede tyrant. Asteroids type game. Yeah, no, it was a game that we could show legally, which was like some knockoff. Gotta love those. Yeah, but I almost bought Centipede that day. The guy had one for $40,000. That's right, I remember that.

- I know. - A little vintage gaming. - We were in like Koreaton. - That was like a classic arcade too. - Yeah, it was great. - Dark. It was like, it's one of those arcades where it's noon outside and as soon as you cross the threshold, it's three o'clock in the morning. You're like, "How did it get so dark in here?" - It's cold. - And it was like our imitating life. I mean, you really did. You would just disappear where we were setting up and you'd be off

like that's right playing that way yeah i could see myself doing something so yeah kept coming back to you guys some more quarters and you were like okay i have one more dollar he's used to kids though um it's 3 45 you guys had agreed you get to come back and call the doctor or receive the doctor's call at four o'clock yeah you run a little late you get back to the house

Kate is sort of crying, seems a little sad or whatnot. And she's like, "I'm so sorry. I should have been here earlier." Et cetera, et cetera. She's like, "The doctor already called and we're pregnant."

There's a beautiful moment, so we think, what have you. There's happiness. And then Sully. Hey, go ahead, Mandy Moore. Speak on it, please. Yeah, just thinking about that moment makes me emotional. You see Toby hugging Kate, and he is emotional, and you're like, oh, wow, this obviously means so much, but we also understand that this person has been suffering tremendously, and everything that's wrapped up in...

He can go back on his medication. He's in so much abject pain, you know? Right. That, like, just the confluence of, like, both of those things coexisting is really palpable. And it's just...

you just feel it as an audience member. Bro, you hug her, you break away to go to the kitchen, to the sink, to get a glass of water, and then just over the sink, just brah. And I was like, oh. Everything he must have been holding in for these weeks. Yeah, and it's one of those things, like, as an actor, the audience may see it a little differently. And so as an actor, I'd just like to say, the

The joy of being able to do two things at once. It's not easy, but it's like when you have an opportunity to be like, I'm feeling great, and I'm also feeling completely and totally overwhelmed, and I don't know exactly how I'm going to move forward. Kudos. Yeah. Kudos. Yeah, it was incredible. I remember we shot it. I mean, that's one of the few, in all my episodes, that was one of those moments that stands out where...

You know, I wasn't directing him. I was just watching you. Just like you just, we just sat there and watched. We were all so choked up, just blown away by that performance. It was very nice. And it went on. It's very nice. I mean, it went on. I mean, what ends up in the show is incredibly powerful and smartly the right length. But like, it was really intense. Yeah. Do you remember that day? Do you remember what was special about that day? Or what was different about that day? I don't.

Well, there's no reason that you would. But for me, it was a unique day. Right. Because this is the heaviest lift that I was going to have to have thus far in the show. Yeah. Right. And on that day, we had a split crew. And it was the B crew. And so other than you and Chrissy. You didn't know anyone. I didn't know a single. It was when we had just started the campaign stuff. And so the A team. Ah.

Not better or worse, just different, A, B. We're all filming somewhere. All of our regular cameramen, sound men. Crew members, yeah. Crew members were not there. Right, right. And when I showed up at the apartment that day, I was freaking out. I was like losing my mind. I was like, what? Wow.

"What the fuck? Who are these people?" - Is that because you felt not comfortable to do that level of performance in front of essentially strangers? - Essentially strangers. This is my first time taking a show this long, being a regular, and I didn't realize that this was a possibility at all, let alone like on, not today, not today. - Of all days, yeah. - Right. And I remember being a little like,

not the nicest person to be around that day because I was trying to stay in a certain headspace. But also I was like, I was mad. I was kind of mad that like I had to do this, you know, with somebody with a microphone who I didn't know. Yeah. You know, that close. Yeah. I mean, there is, it's like, there is sort of this earned, you know, trust with, as an actor, like with your crew and like this,

this crew became our family and everybody was, we were all so comfortable with one another and so familiar. It's like we were on this journey together. And I agree. Like I had never done television, let alone like this, this long before. And so it's like,

I think you sort of set yourself up for these moments. You have this certain expectation of like, okay, I'm going to... I know the set. I'm going to show up. I know what it looks like. I know where my chair is going to be. And then you arrive and somehow everything is different than you imagined. I remember you being... I was like...

I was on you. Like I was, I'm just going to watch you. I was like anchored on you that day. Oh yeah. Because I needed like. Well, you know, you're also making me realize if it was a split crew day, that usually happened right at the beginning too of, of my, like whenever I got a, the, the sort of the B crew. Yeah. Yeah.

It was usually at the beginning of an episode for some reason. Because they were finishing the last episode or something and moving on to this episode. Which is a whole other layer for you because you're doing that scene out of order, which is always the trick with acting to me, that you guys can do that, that you can-- Not shoot in sequential order. Exactly. And then still be able to pull that out is amazing. Yeah. It was an interesting lesson for me because--

This is the episode that we submitted for awards consideration. Yeah. And this is the season where that became a part of my life in this show. Yes. But that day I went home to Rachel. I was like, I didn't do it today. Really? Yeah. I was like, I had my shot to do it and I did not do it. But it's, which I don't believe.

You know what I mean? But as an actor, I was like-- - In your head about it. - In my head about it. How do you feel now when you watch it? I feel good about it. And I receive the lovely things that you have to say about it. It's very nice and I thank you. But it's such an interesting lesson for myself that if I ever encounter a situation like that again, just leave it alone.

Well, one could make the argument that being in that situation with a bunch of people you didn't know actually added to the uncomfortable nature of it. For sure. Use it. Work with what you got. Should we jump to the past? Because there is a past storyline. Yeah, that pretty much wraps up that storyline. Go for it. There is a past storyline with Rebecca and I guess...

I guess it being prom day. Yeah. I love this story. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. And the boys getting ready for prom. We realize that they are not going to, Rebecca's really excited to take pictures and see the boys with, you know, their prom dates. Yep. Sophie and Allison, Randall's prom date. But they're going to go to Allison's house. Correct.

And Kate, we realize, is not going to prom. She's staying home with mom. She doesn't want to go. And Randall tried to invite her, but she said in a way she didn't want to. Correct. And we also see Miguel. I guess he was like...

passing this piano at like a thrift store or a yard sale or something, buys this piano for the Pearsons to bring it over to this rental, this apartment that they're living in post-fire. Yeah. Yeah, this is kind of the beginning of Miguel becoming an emotionally available adult. Yeah.

in the lives of the Pearsons. - The lives of the Pearsons. - Yeah, he's sort of taking on the responsibilities of Jack, of like what you would expect sort of the best friend to do for the family. - You have, the fridge is on the fritz. - Yeah, the fridge is on the fritz. He's like, "I got it, I'll take care of it." He brings over the piano and he's like, "I'll take a look at the fridge." - He winds up being there for hours. - He said, "No, the fridge is on the fritz." - Yeah, but you don't want this piano?

It's like, I can't store my cold goods in this piano. He's there for hours. And Rebecca says to him, Miguel, you don't have to fix the refrigerator. He's like, yeah, I do. He goes, yeah, I got to fix it. And he says it in a way that's like,

Oh, he's not leaving until he fixes the refrigerator, right? He also, there's a moment earlier, they go to prom, they go to Allison's house or whatnot. It's his first time, Randall's first time meeting Allison's parents. And for everybody who remembers, Allison is like- The cute redhead. Like Charlie Brown, cute little redhead girl that Randall is so taken with. And mom is so warm in her greeting of Randall, like, give me a hug, et cetera. And then her dad comes out and-

And he says, Randall, I've heard a lot about you. And then he goes, can't do it. Sorry. And just turns around and walks back. He has a camera in his hand. He's going to take the pictures, but then he's like, can't do it. And so such an intense, delightful little tangent from Brown's life. You guys ready for this one? Yeah. All right. So I went to college prep school in St. Louis, Missouri. It was St. Louis country day school. Now, M I C D S Mary Institute country day school.

I remember like one of the sort of formative moments of life for me was in eighth grade. And I wanted to ask a young lady to this dance who was white. She was very sweet. No names because St. Louis is a small town. She said yes. I was very excited. And everybody, all my friends at Country Day were like, "Oh, dude, so-and-so said yes." I was like, "Yeah, she said yes. It's very cool."

Later on that night, she gives me a call and she goes, "Hey Kelby, how you doing?" I'm like, "I'm great. How you doing?" She's like, "Great, great, great." She goes, "Listen, my parents aren't racist." And I was like, "Okay." - First red flag. - First red flag. She said, "But when it comes to dating, they feel like the racist should sort of like stay separate." And I was like,

Totally. Yeah, and you were like, what was the first thing you said? Yeah, right. What was it? And I was like, totally, totally get it. All good. And she's like, you're fine, you're cool. I'm like, totally cool. See you tomorrow. Right? Then in ninth grade, I did Hamlet with a friend of mine. We had a professional theater company. Hold on. Wait, I'll come to it. It comes back around? Okay, it comes back around. Okay, okay.

He's going to fogelman it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My high school has a professional theater company, and they're doing Hamlet, and I'm playing Marcellus. I get to say something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Got a small little part. And another friend of mine, who's also white, who's lovely, we did it together. And New

New Jack City, it just came out. And so she wanted to listen to my Color Me Bad tape or whatnot. And we were both chess dorks and we'd play chess backstage to run out and do our one or two little lines, et cetera. You know what I'm saying? And she had an older brother who was on the football team with me because I was on the JV football team freshman year. That's an important thing to know because I was good at football. Anyway, her brother tells her parents, she says,

This our sister my sister spending a lot of time with this black guy at school and her parents tell her you be careful He's going to ruin your reputation now Brown Went to Stanford University. Yeah went on to be like student council president, you know, etc, etc, etc And the man did not know me from anything but just said and so she sent me like this seven page letter of

of why she couldn't hang out with me anymore, right? In high school. In high school, freshman year of high school, right? And it sort of like set up this very interesting thing for me in terms of like, oh, me trying to date someone who doesn't look like me is a problem for people. And I simply just said, I won't make it a problem for you anymore.

Like, I personally was at that point in time in my life, I was like, this whole guy-girl thing is really scary enough in and of itself. If I can just sort of simplify it so I can deal on that part, then I'll just deal on that part. And it's interesting, too, because the story that Miguel tells Randall about being Puerto Rican and being called Ricky Ricardo and walking and saying, Lucy, I'm home, is actually true.

because me and Huertas would talk about these sort of parallel experiences that we had growing up. And he actually, that is exactly what he did.

In order to sort of like make people feel comfortable with his presence or what have you, he was just like, oh, I'll play the part of the Cuban even though I'm Puerto Rican so you guys won't feel scared about me doing anything with anyone that you feel like I shouldn't be doing it with. So yeah. Wow. What did you want to circle back to? To go to the dance? I went to the dance solo.

And you know, like now it's more common with kids. I've been there a couple of times. Listen, it's more common now with kids. Like my kid goes to dances by himself all the time. And it's like a group of boys go, a group of girls go, and they dance tangentially every once in a while. They'll sort of go in. But like it's rare that a couple goes. Like linking up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll link up at the dance now. Is that your experience? Teenagers, yeah. Yeah, that's the experience more now. They don't go to Chili's anymore? No.

You don't go to Outback Steakhouse before? A good Bloomin' Onion goes a long way. This makes me wonder, though, as the show evolved, did you guys ever share any personal stories with the writers that then became... I think this is part of that. Me going to the writer's room, sort of talking about the different experiences that I had and trying to figure out where to fit and where I don't fit, etc. And it becomes essential to Randall's storyline because even now...

We'll get to Randall's thing, but the echo of the past and the present is two things where he's like, I don't fit here and I don't fit here. But we'll get to that. And I believe John did as well. I think John definitely spent a fair amount of time in the writer's room and talked about his life and was able to bring his experience into the character as well. And the writer's room just guessed all of mine. Yeah.

They did. They nailed it. This is something that Chris does all the time. He's like, are they watching me? Are they reading my emails? I tried to stay away from them. I was like, this is getting too... Too close. It's too eerie. Yeah. Too close. And my girls were adopted from Ethiopia. Dan's known them since they were infants. And so many of the storylines just resonated with me. Yeah, man. You know, the storyline about the haircut. Yeah. You know...

- At the pool. - I don't know. So it was, you know, and we have stuff in this episode, which we'll talk about as well. - We'll get to in a second. - But that, you know, it really resonated with me working on this show so many times because of the whole mixed family experience, which is mine. - Yes. - You know? And by the way, the show was huge with the adoption community as well. - If you're comfortable talking about it, the, okay.

Moving on. Just kidding. I have a good segue for him, too, because this past storyline is good and sort of Miguel's sort of being the linchpin in it because he comes with the piano. He stays to fix the refrigerator. He has the conversation with Randall as he comes home early from the prom being like, how come you're not there? He said, like, you know, I tried to go, but her dad just turned around and left. And he's like, he tries to tell us the whole thing. And he's like, cool, man, I'm going to go to bed.

It's like, you're not my dad or whatever, and I appreciate you saying something, but I kind of got it. It was like he was trying to fill in for Jack and have his big Jack Pearson moment, and Randall was like, let me stop you there. It's a great scene, because I will try and have little pep talks with my daughters, and it just goes flat. And you're like, okay. But what's great about that scene, in my opinion, is that it does set up that scene later when Kevin's in bed, sleeping off his hangover. Yes, because...

Sophie winds up bringing Kevin home who's drank too much. Been over-served, yeah. Or not over-homed. She brought him to Miguel's house. Yeah. Right? Which is like, how does she know where Miguel be living? Anyway, brings him to Miguel's house or whatnot. And he just, you see him crash out in bed. And Miguel picks up the phone, calls Rebecca and says, listen...

Your son had a little bit too much to drink. He's here right now and he's fine. She's like, I'll come pick him up. She's like, no, it's okay. I just let him sleep here. He'll be fine. And you're like, Miguel, I don't know what we'd do without you, man. You know? And then you go to the scene of Jack filling out his life insurance. And Miguel's there with him and they're hanging out and they're watching. No, boxing comes later. They're just, they're hanging out. And he goes, I don't know why you're doing that, man. Jack Pearson don't die.

It's just a cool little thing. And he goes, no, for real, man, if I get hit by a bus, I need to know you're going to take care of him. And he's like, I got you. Yeah, unspoken. And it's the long play from Fogelman in terms of like, how do you turn people towards someone that they've turned away from from the beginning with regards to Miguel? Because I'm sure even there's still people being like, why is he sniffing around? What's he doing?

The man asked him to. Right. Yeah. The man asked him to look after his family, and he said yes. Yeah. You know? And the tide begins to shift. And the tide rolls. For old Miguel. I believe so. I think this is like a real turning point. Yeah. I think so too. More That Was Us after this short break.

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♪♪

Kev and Zoe are sort of going on a fact-finding mission, right? They're going to Baltimore. They're going to Baltimore. To meet Robinson. To meet Robinson. And as they're doing the road trip, he's very excited and he's having a good time. And, you know, Zoe is still sort of figuring out, like, we've already been told and warned by Beth that, like, you know, she just sort of, like... She's complicated. She's complicated. And she, like, really... What is it? How did she couch it? Like...

She chews men alive or something like that. Side note, when I used to play Maneater for my two kids, they'd be like, this is not a good song. It scares me. And they'd ask me to change the station.

Whoa, here she comes. Totally. Watch out, boy. Chill, chill, you're up. Yeah, I don't know how many we can sing and still keep the things. But yeah, they would legitimately freak them out. That's so funny. First time I showed Bear Islands in the stream with Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers, I showed him on YouTube. He just sat there still, and then he turned to me, and he said,

Maybe when I'm older. Like, this is not for me. I don't get it. He loves Dolly Parton now. Hey, you know me and Dolly. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. You're like, how about some Loggins and Messina then? Yes, there we go. I'll pull back one notch and give you the Loggins and Messina. They're going on the cross-country trip.

And Zoe mentions, she's like, "Ah, I forgot my silk pillowcase." And Kev's like, "Oh, so sorry for you." - Fancy lady. Doesn't have her silk pillowcase. - You can't lay your head on like Hilton's finest or whatever it is. And she sort of just looks at him like, "Okay, what have you?" But it's a real moment. I'm curious for you guys at the time of watching,

Was the significance of the silk pillowcase, did it mean anything to you at that moment? I knew. You knew? Yeah, yeah. Because you got sisters or friends. Sure, sure, yeah. Okay. No idea. You had no idea the significance of the silk pillowcase. Got it. No idea. Now this dude right here who's directing the episode has two black daughters, right? And so obviously knows from Jump Street. But it was such a wonderful thing because I think America was kind of like,

What's the big deal with the silk filter case? And then the other half was like, he don't need to be with it. She don't need to be with it. This is part of the conversation of the episode, right? About knowledge, cultural knowledge, educating versus do I have to, should I need to? Like all of these things. My question is...

As a father with two Black daughters in a mixed family, how do you come to this cultural knowledge that maybe you wouldn't otherwise have? - Yeah, that's a good question. - As it unfolds. - Do you have any vet in your life? - Like the pool scene about understanding Black skin and-- - Where to get, yes, his haircut and-- - I mean, it's just stuff that happens to you, right? Like the way it happens in the show, like, so like,

I mean, I remember when my kids were little and I'm at a pool party and some white dude comes over. He's like, do you have to use suntan lotion on them? Wow. So there was that kind of shit all the time. Yeah. He didn't know he was being an idiot. He didn't know. He didn't know. He doesn't know. Yeah. But, you know, or the other. And this is just an adoption thing. I can't tell how many people would say, you know, they'd meet the girls. I go, so are they sisters? Yeah.

And I'd be like, yeah, they're sisters. Of course they're sisters. What else? And they're saying it in front of my kids like my kids can't hear or speak English. They're like, we are a family. Yeah. They are sisters. So there's a lot of stuff that comes out of what I would call like innocent ignorance. Yeah. Right? Agreed. And then there's humorous things that happen. Like when my daughter, Mezzy, was home. Mimi and Mezzy are my daughters. And Mezzy was little. We're in Target. She's...

acting up and throwing a tantrum, she takes off and she's running and I'm like, I'll get her. So I go through Target, just me. I pick her up, she's kicking and screaming, going, "Mommy, mommy, mommy." And here I am this white dude holding this little, you know, 18 month old black girl. And the security guard comes over. He's like, "Everything okay here?" And I'm like, "I'm her father." And I said it in a way that it was clear that I was her father 'cause I was so pissed off. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And he was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." And we were laughing about it later.

- Yeah, man. - Wow. - Yeah, you know, or if I'm not- - It's a strong visual though. Strong visual, little black baby and a white man. - No, it's just stuff I don't even think about. Like I'm not even thinking about it. - Sure. - Yeah. - But you know, I'll tell one more story and then you can cut this one out. - No, no, no, no, no. - No, you'll cut it in. - No, like when they were teenagers and we're in New York City,

And I'm... We're in Washington Square Park. My daughter is sitting in the fountain. Just... And it's a great picture. So I'm sneaking up behind with my camera to take her picture. Takes a lot of pictures. The most incredible photographer. Kosh takes great pictures. Chris Kosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And...

I'm sneaking up to take her picture and a couple of like, I don't know, 20 something black guys come over with their skateboards and they're like, everything okay little sister? To her. Yeah. And they look at me like, what the hell are you doing? Yeah. And I, in that moment was like, I go, oh, I'm, you know, I'm like, no, I'm her dad. And then I turned and it was like, it hit me and I go, but thank you. Yeah. Because that was the right thing to do. Yeah, they were protecting her. In that moment. They don't know who I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, there's... Wow, man. But that said...

We haven't had a ton of those kind of moments, honestly. But when they happen, it's always interesting to note. It is. I mean, it becomes something that we talk about in the show later on with Randall. Just...

conversations about race happen earlier in minority homes than they do in sort of white homes, right? Because it's something that you necessarily have to think about. So I'm curious, like for you even, Chris, like how early do you start to talk about your daughters? Because there's also like,

I want my kids to be kids. Right. I want their innocence to be like, because once you're an adult, you don't go back. Quick tangent. I know we may have to edit some of this out, but I think this is a really interesting story. This is our podcast, goddammit. Is there a way to go live? Let's go live with this. There's this thing that happened the other day where Andrew was in a soccer game.

And I saw him look down at his jersey. He just pulls his jersey up and he goes ref and he shows the ref his jersey. So I find out after the game, he said, we found out during the game because it became a thing.

A little boy spat on Andrew. Spat on his jersey. And then Andrew goes, immediately shows the ref, like, "Ref, dude just spat on my jersey." Right? He goes, "Look, it's right here." And the ref goes, "I didn't see it, so I can't really do anything about it." Right? So they kept playing the game. And I said, on the sideline, 'cause I heard this thing, I said, "Did somebody just spit on my kid?" And I said it loud.

And the kid who did, he goes, nobody spat on your son, bro. You need to calm down, right? And I was like, all right, I can't get in a shouting match with a kid. You know, you're not going to do that or what have you. Then after the game was over, AJB, Andrew wound up telling me that like the kid also called him a nigger, right? But he said he didn't tell me until after the game because he knew how upset I was about it already. So after the game, I'm walking to talk to the refs.

And the coach is like, you can't talk to the refs one-on-one. And I was like, I got to do something. And he's like, no, there's a whole protocol. Please don't get us in trouble. And he's just doing his job as a coach. He's a young man, good kid. But there has to be a certain sort of special extenuating circumstances where it's not business as usual. For hate crimes, there should

- You know what I'm saying? Like it's assault, it's literally assault. And so I'm just, and I talk to him and I say, "Hey man, I'm sorry that you have to experience this." That this had to happen.

And like, and you try to, and he's probably more resilient than I am, to be honest with you. Like, he's sort of like, nah, dude, it's disappointing that things like this happening still because it's 2025. But, you know, I guess it's part of the game. Because I also don't want him to feel like there's no recourse. That like, you just have to accept it. And sort of keep going with it. So I'm just curious. Or to think that it's part of the game. Yeah, that is not part of the game. No, it's not part of the game. How did you deal with your anger?

- I mean. - I'm gonna talk about that in the next episode. - Okay. - He's currently on the run. - No, I'm actually gonna- - He actually hides here now. - I'm gonna talk about that 'cause we're gonna be talking about episode 306 and there's a whole boxing thing. So remind me about that because there's this energy that gets up inside of you and you have to figure out what exactly am I gonna do with it before it just explodes. - How do you expel it? - Right, right. - But I will, remind me that we are talking about that. So in talking to your daughters and navigating their youth,

and their blackness. Like, is there any sort of like rules or just like how,

negotiating it because it becomes a big thing for the Pearsons later on in terms of like we never talked about certain things in our house. We just tried to skirt around it. Yeah, I mean the kids guide the conversation usually they're way ahead of us. Well, not my wife, me usually. Okay. But like even, you know, when they were very little like three, like, you know, my daughter's like, how come we're chocolate and you're vanilla?

Good question. Great question. To which I said, I'm peach, actually. Technically. Technically. You and I, Chris, we're peach. Yeah, I'm chocolate chip. Lots of sun damage. So they're asking questions like that. And I don't, you know, you just give the best, you just be honest. You tell the story. They know the tale. They know how we're a family. And, you know, and it's also tricky for...

for them too, because they're from Ethiopia. Yeah. So a lot of Ethiopian adoptive teens can find themselves in a tricky situation because the, the black American kids don't necessarily accept them. The native Ethiopian kids don't necessarily accept them and they find themselves in this in-between zone. Yeah.

And it's just good friendships that they have to build across, you know, they find their friends in school. My girls are a big part of the black student union. And initially, you know, actually there was a moment when like they were questioned as to,

how black they actually were because they're in a mixed family. Do you really understand what a barbecue is? That was the question. Yes. So I went to Wikipedia. I looked up what a barbecue was. Seems like a lot of fun.

We gonna do a kick out. Gathering with grilled meats. There you go. But what's great is that... No raisins in the potato salad. The happy ending, it's like the girls navigated that moment and then became like best friends with the kid that raised that issue. I got you. So it was a positive...

That's awesome. Yeah, we made them go and confront it and deal with it. Okay. Let's continue with this part. Wow, this got heavy. This is us, bro. This is us. What are you talking about? This is us. What do you think it's going to be? You thought your nervous breakdown was going to be the thing. Listen.

So now we go to pick up some snacks to refuel, right? Is that what's happened? Yes. And they're at the gas station. Kev is grabbing some stuff, et cetera. Zoe goes to use the bathroom. The bathroom is locked. She comes and tells the lady behind the counter, white lady, she goes, the bathroom is locked. And the lady gives her a look. It says something like, what do you, like. Like a wait your turn type look. Yeah, something like that. And then Kev just sort of blithely says, she's with me. And the lady sort of relaxes a little bit, et cetera. Yeah.

Zoey clocks the look, well directed because he is blissfully, blithely just doing his thing. This moment transpires between these two women, right? And Kev is number wiser, right? They make it to Robinson's. And then there's a real conversation about Jack

How much do you want to know? Like, you think your dad is a mechanic? Your dad was not a mechanic, right? He was a sergeant. He was sort of the leader of these men. Yeah. Right? He was the squad leader of Alpha Company, the third squad. He was the squad sergeant. Yeah. Right? So now Kev is sort of learning things. What he's been told his whole life is not fully the truth. He didn't have a whole lot to go off to begin with, right? Sure. But the little bit that he did wasn't even like the full picture of things.

So Kev is getting this new information for himself in terms of how to wrestle with who he knew his dad to be and who he's finding out who he was. And there's a little conversation that happens between Zoe and Robinson's wife. You want to speak to it, please? In the kitchen. Well, no, they just... She's sort of...

They just have this conversation about what it's like to be black and dating this white movie star. And... What did she say? My first sort of foray into the alabaster? Something like that. It was really... I was like, wait. That sounded like a K line. Yeah. But it was sweet because you could see these two women sort of commiserating with each other about, you know, like she mentions the silk pillowcase. She mentions the racist gas station attendant. Yeah.

And I believe she's urged, like, by Robinson's wife, like, is he worth it to have this conversation? And she's like, I don't know. He might be. You see her sort of really kind of ruminating and caught between a rock and a hard place. It's an interesting thing because when you occupy a lot of predominantly white spaces, you have to decide for yourself as a minority that

Am I going to explain everything if they ask? Or am I just going to be like, look at the web? You know what I'm saying? There's a real sort of thing of like, and for me personally, it's a matter of like, is the question sincere and a reflective of a desire to authentically learn something about me? Or is it just like, can I touch your hair?

I'm like, bro, I'll punch you in the nose. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not like some like chia pet for you to like rub on or what have you. But if somebody is like asking a genuine question. And so what Robinson's wife says is like, have you told him what happened? She's like, you know what? No, because once I explain this, then I'm going to have to break down all this other shit. And I don't know if I want to go through all that or not. And she says, well, I guess you have to decide whether or not he's worth it. Right. So later on, they get to the hotel.

And this is the magic of Kev is like, even though he like pokes fun and like talks shit or whatever, he's like, comes to the door and there's a silk pillowcase there. - That he's had delivered. - And she's like, "You got me a pillowcase?" She was like, "It seemed pretty important to you." So I was like, "I'll get you a pillowcase." - And that I think opened the door for her to be like, "Okay, you wanna know why it's important? - Yeah. - Let me explain to you." - My hair dries up if it happens, you know? And at the gas station, this woman was racist towards me. "Why didn't you say anything?" And she's like,

I was trying to figure out whether or not you're worth it. And I think maybe you are. And the casting of the woman was great at the gas station because it was not the expected casting. Right. You know, and it was a subtle moment.

And it was just really well done. And I also like in the kitchen conversation that the significance of the silk pillow is not discussed. She just says, because it's just known between them. So for half of the audience that doesn't know, it's still a mystery. We're still waiting to learn. So half the audience is Kevin in that moment, right? Until he gets explained to them. That's right. That's absolutely right. Good call, man. Good call. The writer's going, is this audience worth it? Yeah.

That's right. I can literally see... Let's see the payoff. I can literally see, because KJ wrote this, I can literally see KJ and K having this conversation in the writer's room. Correct. And Dan just being like, huh? Yeah. Like following like a tennis match. I've seen Dan like come up to people and...

I think he said he had this conversation with Sue. Sue told me this. She goes, "I've learned so much about black hair doing this TV show. It's amazing." And really being sort of like, I had no idea and now I know. So that's where that one sort of culminates. And then there is Randall and Beth. We got a little R&B action. Randall, go ahead. - Hold on. - Don't let me miss anything. Please.

This story ends with Robinson meeting them at the hotel the next morning and basically saying, like, you know, sometimes the answers are so dark, you're better off not having them. But if you want to know more about your dad, here you go. And he leaves this packet, which includes a picture of Jack and

With a Vietnamese woman wearing the necklace that Jack gave to Kevin. That's right. And this just, we're all sort of like, this is another piece of the puzzle of like, who is this woman? What's the significance of this necklace? It's, and I think it unlocks something in Kevin in regards to, there's so much more to this story than I realized. And I don't know where it's taking me, but I,

it might be leading me towards having to make a trip to Vietnam. It's something that we'll discuss in the next episode. But that's sort of where that story ends. Thank you very much. And the kindness of Robinson to sort of like, he opened this door. I mean, he told Kevin more or less, like, your dad saved my life in October of 1971. Like, I wouldn't have been here to tell this story. And he was a really guarded man. Like, there was a lot that he didn't want to share with the world, but...

You know, he has to sort of make this choice to give...

the permission, I guess, for Kevin to move forward, learning more about his father. - Who played Robinson? He was so lovely. - My man from night court. - Charles Robinson. - Charles Robinson. - He was a good dude. - But again, another TV legend that-- - Populated our show. - Populates the "This Is Us" world, makes it feel like home. - Definitely. - But sorry, to jump into Randall and Beth. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, all good. Randall has made this decision to run for city council, right?

Thus begins what I forgot is my favorite Randall storyline. Is it? In this series. Yeah, yeah. Candidate Pearson? I'm like, political Pearson is my favorite. It's a good storyline. And it's a great storyline for this couple, too. Because...

He is sort of trying to entrench himself into this neighborhood where his father grew up as a way of sort of connecting to his father, to his culture, to that people, to that community. And he's sort of feeling a bit like an outsider to a certain extent. So he decides to have...

a gathering at a local barbecue spot that his father probably went to a million times and he starts to get... What is a barbecue? That's a great question. What is a barbecue? That's a great question. There's different kinds. We tend not to do dry rubs. LAUGHTER

St. Louis barbecue. We like a little salsa on it, baby. That's right. Take that, Kansas City. Anyway, there is, so he's decided to do that. His wife has, when I start these things, I'm about to say audition. Is about to have an interview for a new job as well because she lost, do we know, has she told? Yes. She told Randall that she lost her job, right? But he doesn't know how much she's struggling. Exactly.

So he goes to this barbecue and she's going to meet him after she gets finished with her interview. And it seems like things are going fairly well. A lot of pretty good turnout. Everybody's really excited. Like, hey, how you doing? I'm Randall. Nice to meet you. And they're like, yeah, you know where the barbecue is and you know where the sides are. It's like, cool. So he goes to look at the flyer that Chi Chi, the Nigerian woman that we met prior. And he's like, where's my name on this thing? And she's like, it's right.

There. The fine print. Right? And she tells him, like, look, man, you told me to get people here. It's now your turn to do the rest, right? And so at a certain point, he starts talking to the people and says, like, give it up for the proprietors of this spot and the delicious food that they provided just to get that, you know, obligatory round of applause to sort of get people primed, right? He's able to tell a few jokes. He's like, oh, that was good. That went over pretty well. That was funny when you said that.

And you're like, oh, I like the laugh. What was in the script? You said, oh, the laugh. All right. I don't know. That feels good. You know, Brown is prone to do stuff. I'll throw stuff in there. And it was such a joy to do this scene, too, because...

You guys feel me on this one? When you have a large group of people, sometimes with the extras, first of all, some are not allowed to speak or et cetera, et cetera, but you need a little bit of feedback in order to get going, which you need. So we had enough speaking people in there that were supposed to be antagonistic towards Randall and he starts to lose the crowd.

Pretty soon. He starts to say, you guys have been putting up with sort of like haphazard- Starts insulting Saul Brown. He starts insulting Saul Brown. And they're like, Saul Brown is one of us. He's been here for 30 years, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, at what point do you have to have some sort of accountability for things that aren't being taken care of? Everybody's just gone. And you see Beth in the back and it's like, bruh.

You're doing exactly what Beth asked you not to do. You're not making it happen. Well, she asked me not to cry. Oh, that's right. She asked me not to cry. And I was like, okay, I cannot cry. But I can alienate everybody in this joint. Yes. Mission accomplished. Right? And then later, he's talking about, like, why are people putting up with this? Like, there's better. They deserve better. Why aren't they doing it? And the proprietor of the spot, who's also...

Somebody that we see all the time. He did a lot of like KFC commercials and stuff. I know for sure Richard Gant, he's great. Yeah. Okay this he killed the scene. Yeah And he goes like why don't you just go back to where you came from basically? I was like, excuse me, and he's like, why don't you just go back to where you came from? I was like, well if you could tell me where that is, I

I'd really appreciate it. Like I've been trying to figure that out. Great mystery of my life. Great mystery of my life. Great writing. Because it is just like you were talking about with your daughters in terms of being Ethiopian American, but not in Ethiopia, not really fully American. All these sort of like liminal places that folks...

tend to inhabit. Randall's like, "Bro, I was too black for this red haired girl's daddy, right? And now I'm not black enough for you, et cetera, even though I'm here actively trying to do something to be of service." And he breaks down what Saul Brown did for him. - Did for them. - Right.

And it's a whole story about I was going to lose my spot. We had a new landlord come in, hike up the rent 50%. Saul goes and talks to the person. They break bread, et cetera. Next thing I know, it was an incremental increase. I was able to keep my place. So I don't owe him my vote. I owe him my life. Right? Right. So you're like, well, damn, that's going to be hard to beat. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I need a new tactic. I need a new tactic. And...

This is 3:05 still, because I'm confiding 3:05 and 3:06 in my head. -I know, I know, that you want to jump into J1, but we're not there yet. -We haven't gotten to the new tactic yet. -We haven't gotten to the new tactic yet. But we go home, and Beth and I have a moment

Oh, this is quick. You go to the car. We go to the car. And I said, I completely forgot to ask about your interview. How'd it go? She said, you know, I did my thing. I was all charming and Beth and da-da-da-da. I was like, that's what I'm talking about, right? Because it's almost like she knew. Beth, being someone's rock, because this gets echoed again, like, thank you for being my rock, is Kate's line to you in the episode, in this episode. Yeah.

And it's like that sort of responsibility of being the rock oftentimes means like, do I have permission to show when the rock is cracked? Right? And so Beth in that moment decides like, you know, I'll let it be. Oh, this is the one. This is the one. This is what got me.

is this young lady by the name of Lyric Nicole Ross. Oh, yeah. Having a conversation as Deja with Beth and saying that like, you know what? If you need to feel exceptional or something, you can talk to Randall. And he says it's so easy.

yeah he says that you actually believe it right and if you're sad because this is is this you should tell him is this um girl scouts as well no that's next time okay yeah that's in the next episode that's in the next episode but this that this this one i'm talking about is in this one i don't think so i think deja's in the next episode too i know it's hard because they they really like it it fits together i think the point we're at is thank you for coming

You're welcome. My pleasure. We're just jumping ahead. I'm like, I don't remember directing that scene. You know, am I losing it? Well, but it one of, you know, there were so many poignant moments in this episode. And one that really struck me personally was Beth's interview.

Yeah, so we do see Bette's interview. Because she goes to the interview and it seems to be going really well. And they bring up that like, wow. Her boss was so effusive and talked so highly of her. And that just, you see, throws her off. It's this reminder of like,

how deeply wounded she is, how deeply hurt she is by being fired. She was with, like, you were with the company for 12 years? Like, we don't often see that. And he spoke so highly of you. And it just sets off this chain of, she starts to, like, really lose her footing and she never recovers, right? And just that moment of,

You know, because when I was starting on this business, I had a meeting with a studio, head of a studio. And it was going great. It was like this meeting. It was all going great. And then I was asked one question about this pitch we had. And it was like a left field question. And I, my brain went into like empty space. I don't have a response. I don't have a response. It was that moment.

that she's going through in the show really resonated because yes, not only did she get fired and that's what's behind it, but just that moment when you draw a blank. Yeah. And the woman that is interviewing her is such great casting because she's just like... So sweet. But you're also sweet but not friendly. Sure. Yeah. Right? So it's like you're on right now. Right. And...

And just that, like, you get into that panic mode of like, oh, I have nothing to say. I can't think of a word. And then... And then she just couldn't recover either. It's like she was trying to mask how emotional she felt. Yeah. And she couldn't, like... She kept, like, kind of stuttering and trying to find the way to... It's a horrible feeling. Yeah. And then she finally just has to excuse herself. And you think, oh, gosh, she definitely is not getting this job. And she does a look.

I you know, I just watched the episode again and I remember on the day That Susan does a look that is so impactful She says are you okay? And she just takes a moment and she just has this little bit of a smile and a head nod. It's so profound Yeah, it's really great performance. That's so yeah Koch, thanks for joining

Oh my gosh. Well, this has been a great rehearsal. Let's start to roll. And action. Yeah. That's, Requa has that joke too. He loves that. Oh, does he? Yeah, he does. Oh, damn it. Damn it. Cut that out. We got a fan segment? We do have a fan segment. Today? Do you have a few more minutes? I do, yeah. Great. Appreciate it. We'll take a little break or maybe not. Come back with our favorite segment of the show. It'd be funny if you come back, there's just a straw dummy here. Yeah.

The next fan segment really moved us. We got an email from a listener that felt incredibly honest and heartfelt. As soon as we read it, we knew it was something we wanted to share. And it's just this powerful reflection on mental health and fatherhood and how this show can ripple into real life. So let's read it. You want to start? Yeah, I'll give it a start here. This is from Luca. Dear Sterling, Mandy, Chris, and the team.

Thank you so much for creating this amazing podcast. My name is Luca. I am from Brazil and I have a three month old daughter, uh, Madalena. So while I hold her on her naps or burping, listening to that was us is my favorite thing. It's the perfect balance between useful content, light conversation and emotional topics.

My specific topic to bring here happened in Season 3, Episode 5, where we see Toby going off his meds. That episode really changed my life. I know in the U.S. people talk more directly about hard topics. I'm saying this because I already lived there in New York City and Washington, D.C.,

Racism, for example, is much more debated in your country than in Brazil, even though your Black population is around 13% if I'm not mistaken, you're not, while ours is more than 50%. In the same beat, depression is not very debated in Brazil.

I knew I was flirting with depression symptoms since 2018, but it was only in 2022 while watching this episode that I understood how relatable I was with the whole thing. I identified myself in Toby. I was watching this episode with my incredible wife. We watched the whole show together. After that episode, it took me only one or two days to mention to her that I was feeling a bit like Toby, and she was the one who pushed me to talk to a psychiatrist.

The doctor told me right away that I had depression. After I started taking the meds, I talked to some friends about it. It came to me as a shock that about half of my close friends had already been or were going through a similar situation. I come from a privileged background in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and even though this topic should be widely discussed in my friends group,

It was actually very disregarded. I also believe it because we are all white, privileged men and we never talk about our feelings with each other. Anyway, last week, after more than two years on meds and therapy twice a week, I finally got off my meds with all the support and observation from my doctor. The beauty about this is I coincidentally, or not, started to listen to the podcast last week when I started getting off my meds. Wow.

So I just wanted to share that with you, that this little part of the series caused such a big impact in my life. Thank you so much for bringing relevant issues to the surface with the show and now with the podcast. I don't know you guys, but I love you, and you mean so much to us, to our new family. Best regards from Brazil. Meijos e abraços. Abraços. Luca, Ligia, and Madalena. There they are.

Hi, beautiful people. Oh my goodness. Sweet. Oh my God, he's just as handsome as Toby. Look at him. Nice smile. I mean, we could be brothers. Come on. Yeah, you really could. You could be family. We could be related. You could be related. I can't see the baby. Well, the baby is beautiful. First of all, all babies are beautiful. That only plays on YouTube because they've intentionally blurred out their baby's face and Kats is dumb. I thought I had face blindness. What?

- What if we were like, what do you mean you can't? - Yeah, that's what you should know. - It is an interesting thing to point out culturally, just like differences in terms of, and maybe that's, you're not aware until you expose yourself to a different culture in terms of like the way we talk about the 60s and 70s and like men expressing themselves is sort of kind of like what he's talking about is the difference between Brazil and America in 2025, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, it's interesting because the conversations around depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, any of these things that tend to be very internal and difficult to talk about, the problem is not that you're feeling it. The problem is not that it exists. The problem is the stigma around discussing it. And so to discuss it, to have a conversation about it,

is to cure it. - Yeah. - Is part of the process of-- - Getting better. - Dealing with it, facing it, addressing it, whatever that takes. For some people, it involves medication. For others, just the talking about it is the exorcism

that is needed to externalize it, to understand that you're not the only person going through it, to talk about it with someone, like he said, with his friends and to be like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm going through a very similar thing. Yeah. It's very interesting. Like, you know, just the other day, I texted a buddy and he responded with a voice note and in the voice note, he was like, sorry, you texted me, I'm in the middle of a panic attack and I'm on the couch and I'm having a hard time breathing. His ability to,

To be able to admit that to me, I called him.

and we breathed through it together on the phone. - Wow. - And just shot the shit. We didn't really talk about the anxiety attack. He told me what he was feeling. I said, "That's what mine feel like." Yeah, mine feel like that too. I know exactly what you're going through. And then we just caught up for a second. And by the time we were done catching up-- - He had caught his breath. - The anxiety attack is over. You know what I mean? But his ability to vocalize it. - And to reach out. - To say this is happening to me.

instead of to take it and try to deal with it himself or internalize it. That's amazing. That's it. That's the only step. And the step that Luca talks about in terms of being able to see what he's feeling represented in media. Yeah, that reflection. You know what I mean? Being like, I kind of feel like that. And it was able to open up a door for him to share something with his wife and for him to ultimately get the help that he needed as well.

It's really powerful stuff, the ability that this show does have to open those doors for so many people on just a plethora of different levels.

topics and platforms and yeah it never ceases to amaze me yeah it is all thanks to our special guest chris scotch for bringing it to the small screen about you buddy thank you for joining thank you guys so you want to is there anything going on in your life that you want people to pay attention to that you have an opportunity to share with them right now well no just uh can people see your photography anywhere yet you know uh i'll let you know where um yes i'm about to launch that in a

website and do all that stuff. Finally, after years of, when you do, let us know. And we will talk about it here and we will spread it on our socials and, and all those things. Cause Rachel and I just got a big print, a big Chris Koch print. Oh yes, you did. Yeah. You bought a Koch. I bought a Koch. A Koch original. Yeah, we got a Koch original.

Yeah, let us know when that happens because I would love to. I will, yeah. And Dan's been bugging me to do it too, so I need to finally organize it. We need a coffee table book from you too. Yeah, okay. I mean that. No, I know. Put it right here on this coffee table. We won't talk about it on this, but I do have one. It's my cross-country trip with my dog.

These photos are great. These photos are great. They're pretty funny. Okay. All right. Christmas is coming, guys. It's coming. All right. Thank you. But you have some episodes of Only Murderers coming out too in the next season. Yeah, I just finished Murders, yeah, and that's just always a blast, and it's such a fun show. Yeah. You know, I will say what's really great about working on This Is Us or Murders, it's like, for me as a director, it's like you're stepping into the world to a large degree because you're on the sets, I'm with you guys, and you're

and it feels like you're in, like when I watched the episode last night of this one, I feel like I'm in those scenes again, or we're in that world. Wow. It really is like, it's not just a day of work. Right. Yeah. Right. It was all those characters and all those storylines. So thanks to you guys, which, and you know, you always made it such a welcoming, uh,

to be a part of for me. Well, thank you. Yes, thank you. Absolutely, man. And I'm going to stop talking now. No, no, please. No, they ask you, Dan asks us at the end of every season, like, you know, who are the directors that worked well? Koch. Koch. Give us more Koch. Yeah. Give me that Koch. Very sweet. Well, good luck with the rest of it, too. And then in, what, 10 years, we'll have one called, a podcast called Who Were They? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then what was that? We'll see you on the next episode of That Was Us. Later, gang. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.