How To Advertise Legally & Ethically (What You Don't Know) W/ Anik Singal
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- What I got in trouble for at the end of the day, my whole case came down to four words that were said on some of my sales calls. They say it was on all of them, but we didn't know. I had no idea that this is a problem. And that is, what is your goal? - Let's talk big picture. What are like five key areas everyone listening right now needs to walk away knowing. - Guys, listen up because this is the number one entry point. Testimonials. There are four rules to testimonials. This is where most marketers get pinched the most. Number one.

My name's Rudy Moore, host of Living the Red Life podcast, and I'm here to change the way you see your life in your earpiece every single week. If you're ready to start living the red life, ditch the blue pill, take the red pill, join me in Wonderland, and change your life. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Living the Red Life. We have a great guest today, a friend of mine, and we're going to talk about an area that's underprivileged, under-talked about, underappreciated, but so, so important. Anik, welcome to the podcast.

thanks for having me man glad to be here and to talk about it cool well we're going to dive straight in we're talking about how to be compliant how to follow the rules how to not break ftc law and how to keep a healthy strong um business where you don't run into trouble whether you're in the us or not this is best practices for advertising this is something that

I learned many years ago when I started working with billion dollar companies and I was shocked about how every quote unquote marketing secret and technique basically breaks the FTC rules. And we did a big clean as soon as I learned all this stuff

And now what's awesome is Anik and his team are teaching this to everyday entrepreneur and marketers. So I'm so excited for this session. Thanks for coming on. And I think just to kick off, can you give a kind of minute or two overview on how you got to this point and your background and history?

Yeah, I'd love to. First of all, look, I want to tell everyone who's listening to this because you might be thinking it's going to be some stuffy lawyer talking about some legal stuff. It's going to be boring. It's not. I'm not a lawyer, not an attorney. Everything I'm giving you is completely coming from the perspective of a marketer, a common person who got sued by the FTC.

And who went through the entire process. It was an 18 month investigation. You know, I always tell the story as this way. There was a period of my life for which I was 92 days in the ICU. I was bleeding so much I had to get two pints of blood every day just to stay alive. And I got to the point where they couldn't even put my hospital bed up. Just my heart rate would spike.

So I had to go through surgery 50/50 chance. I'll wake up from the surgery. I woke up from the surgery I lost the ability to walk at that point I had to go through physical therapy had surgery again six months later was in the ICU for 30 days and then again Six weeks after that at three surgeries one year was parked in my parents basement as a makeshift hospital It was a pretty rough year Why do I tell you this story? Because getting under investigation by the FTC and going through that 18 month window with them was worse. I

It was worse than that year of my life. It was the most disruptive, painful, horrible thing I've ever been through in my life. And it has absolutely shucked the ground upon which I was. And I've always said, there's no amount of money I made and there's no amount of money you're making right now that makes...

playing chicken with this organization worthwhile. So take it seriously. And there are some amazing things you don't know. I didn't know. I just, I had an attorney. I had a paralegal working in my company full time. I took this stuff very seriously way before we ever got investigated. We had a lot of rules to help protect, but, and I had an attorney who was overseeing and giving advice and I probably spent close to a million dollars. Listen, we had all the check marks checked off. I was doing

I was doing a lot of volume that year that we got 2022 is when we got the notice May. That year we were going to do 40 million. We're going to do about 20% profit margin. I was ready to sell the company. I was through due diligence. Everything was done. We were just weeks away from selling. I was stepping down as CEO. Everything was great. Just had my first child was born three weeks prior before I got the notice.

We built a company that had a great record, A rating at the BBB, over 150,000 customers, never once even received a legal notice, nothing. Our customers were happy, vendors happy, contractors happy, employees happy, everybody happy. All the records were clean. I still till this day have a great reputation in the industry, even after I've been through all of this. So when you say that, hey, I'm too small or I'm a good person or I don't do bad things or I have happy customers, that does not protect you from this.

The new way of the FTC is they're being hardcore. Just today, Rudy, the day we're filming this, they released a new major statement about testimonials. They are really, really getting policy driven. They don't care who you are. They don't care about complaints. It's policies, rules. They enforce them. So I've been doing this for 21 years. Great reputation. I've sold 250,000 courses and more than millions in revenue. Kept a superbly low refund rate, very low chargeback rate, same merchant accounts for 15 years.

so i did it all right technically kpis all matched but there were certain rules being broken i didn't know about and one in particular one four word phrase is what the whole case came down to um and it was just super enlightening and about halfway through the process i realized i learned so much i was like man

I got to get the message out to people. I have got to let people know because no marketers don't understand. And then we ended up building this really cool software app to help marketers, you know, AI powered software app that can actually check your company.

or copy for compliance so that's kind of my whole story in a nutshell i know it's more than a couple minutes but um hope that gives everyone some reference yeah i mean obviously it's not you know a nice uh story or experience but you know i mean firstly i want to say one great thing about great entrepreneurs is they try and find a positive light in every situation and that's what makes entrepreneurs great so i'm glad you

at least been able to turn this experience into something that can help other people. Because yeah, I think there's a lot of people out there like you, where they think they're doing everything right. They care for their customers, they have low complaints, refunds, thousands of happy customers. And this just, you know, no one teaches this, right? So

I think it's awesome you're doing this. That's why obviously I wanted to have you on. And, you know, I learned, you know, ironically, we have the same attorney and, you know, I've learned this luckily from him for many years when I started working with some big players and billion dollar brands. And I was equally shocked. And I'm like, oh, you can't do that. That's literally what every marketer teaches. Oh, you can't do that. That's literally what you get told to do on every sales page. Oh, you can't do that, right? And the list goes on and on.

dive into some examples for the next 15 minutes so everyone listening you're going to walk away with hopefully a lot of practical examples that go wow I really need to dress these things up the last thing I'll say before we do is that

At one point when I was learning all this, I was like, how do you even sell a product and market if you can't do these things? But since applying these things, we've been very successful as a company and we hit the Inc. 5000 list and kept growing. And touch wood, I'd like to say we're probably one of the most compliant in the industry. We've not used a revenue number or a

I number and all those things for many years and read it all our testimonials, as you mentioned, and, you know, tell our clients, hey, when you give us a testimonial, don't say anything about these areas, you know, just talk about these. So it is an experience and something that you have to learn to navigate out of because it's kind of like retraining a muscle. But I think just come into it with an open mind. So with that being said, let's talk big picture. What are like

five key areas everyone listening right now needs to walk away knowing and in uh i did so

I'm going to actually pull open the book. I'm just going to go over something we call the Pentagon of Compliance, okay? So it's literally five key areas that you'll see come up again and again in cases. Number one is something called misrepresentation. And I'll come go through these, but I'm telling you right now, if you just apply these five, you're going to significantly reduce the risk of yourself getting into trouble with the FTC. And of course, we can help you do that if you have further specific questions. But number one is something just over-encompassing, okay?

So Rudy, one of the things that we'll see marketers try to do is out lawyer the lawyers. And I think that's the silliest thing. I see it all the time. It makes me laugh. I probably was trying to do it myself, right? So it's like, hey, I never said you'll make $10,000 a month. I said you could.

make $10,000 a month. I'm good. Okay. That trust me, they've covered all that. You're not good. Okay. And I'll cover exactly where you're not good. So number one, let's just talk about something called misrepresentation. It's a very, it's an umbrella. It covers a lot of different things. Basically, it's a softer way of them saying, are you lying? So when you're on a webinar or you're on a sales page and you say five minutes to go,

32 spots left. Is that truthful? Because if it isn't, it's a lie. And they consider that misrepresentation, which is directly quoted as a deceptive act of advertising under Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act.

So they're very hardcore about that. They look for these things and they know they, they understand on a webinar, if they see a marketer say something, they know nine times out of 10, 95% of the time, they know that marketer is just making it up. There's no substantiation behind their representation, right? So anything, if I take a picture with a big celebrity and build copy around it and try to, uh,

Don't say anything specific to it, but that's implication. It's misrepresentation. I'm trying to represent that this person is either a client or a supporter of what I'm doing. That's misrepresentation. So just think to yourself, it's really just lying. Misrepresentation is probably one of the easier things to be able to remove. We got rid of, okay, your bonus stacking. This bonus is worth $5,000. Really? Who said that?

Why is your PDF worth $2,600? Would you come up with that? Has anyone ever paid you $2,600 for just that PDF? No, that's a lie. It's a misrepresentation. It might be a white lie. And that's how we get away with it. We're like, oh, come on, it's worth that because it's this and this much effort put into it and this much years of knowledge. Guys, they say black and white. If you say it's valued at that, it's because it has sold at that to a substantial amount of people. All right. So number one is misrepresentation.

let me just add one thing like as you're going through these i want to give some practical examples because i i know listening everyone's brain is going like well how the hell do i do any of it right and and so two examples just for you guys listening number one like we still do bonus stacks we just don't put what they're potentially valued at right and the only

is if we have clear invoices and you know plenty of transactions showing we sold it at this price previously by itself in its original form so you can still have bonuses just don't make up this $25,000 bundle that you've seen on many big

people do. Secondly, webinars. We still do live events and webinars and we still say for the next 20 people you're going to get this bonus. But it's the truth where we actually give 20 buyers this bonus and we don't run this forever or if we do a weekly webinar we will say the first 10 people to join in today's event. So we can still do it every week but if the 11th person joins guess what? They don't get the bonus.

the first 10 that join get the bonus. So again, you can do these things that don't shut off here listening to this. You just have to do it super authentically how you should be doing it, right? And we all kind of got misled, I think, as marketers because our gurus and people we learned from said to do all these things, but you just got to do it genuinely and you'll be okay on those things. So back to you, but I just wanted to

Absolutely. And everyone, listen, as a marketer, I continue to do all these things. I do webinars. I do VSLs. I do sales pages, low ticket offers, mid ticket offers. I still do phone sales, which is actually one of the most risky things because that's the thing that they are reviewing the most. You'll be shocked at how when you remove these things, it doesn't have nearly the impact that you think it's going to have. It actually attracts you a better quality of customer. So you get rid of the low quality customers and get higher quality. All right. Number two is called net impression.

This is the number one thing that I hear the FTC talk about the most. And that is what also covers their basis. So when you say, hey, I never said anything. All right. I never said anything. Right now, Rudy, I can look at you. And if I showed this picture of you right now sitting where you are to any random person on the street, just showed them the picture. And I said, give me an observation about this person.

Guaranteed within the first 30 seconds, they'd say or 10 seconds. They'd say he likes red, right? That is a net impression. He has given me that net impression. Now, in the case of the FTC, Rudy is responsible for my net impression. He's responsible to Rudy can't be like, well, I never said I like red. You just assumed I like red.

Well, in the case of earnings claims and claims and performance claims, if you fill up, so right now, if we were to film a sales video where we've got gold chains, gold teeth, you know, a Lamborghini, a Ferrari, two girls in bikinis, a mansion behind me and a private jet onto the left of me. And I never talk about making money. I keep the copy completely compliant.

The net impression being left upon the person's mind is still that this is all easy and this is the life you can achieve. They still don't like that. So net impression should be of your copy is, hey, look, you're here. I'm going to teach you a skill. I'm here to show you how to do something. But there's work to be done.

There's work to be done. There's things to be done. So net impression, you should think about your copy as a whole. And they don't care about the specifics. They don't care about the little word tweaks you make. That doesn't protect. Okay. So how do we apply this in normal marketing? By context. So I can say, I said at the earlier part of this podcast, hey, I've sold over 250,000 customers.

I can say that in copy, but if I keep saying it again and again and again and again and I don't give context, then I'm creating a negative net impression. But I can say, hey guys, my name is Anik Singhal. I've done this for 21 years. I've invested tens of millions in paid traffic. I've sold over 250,000 customers worldwide. Just so you know, it took me 20 years to do it. Big brand, big reputation, big team. I'm not saying that you can do it. The reason I tell you this number is so that you understand that I have some credibility and that you should listen to me.

Now, when you put it that way, nobody in their right mind is going to hear that and walk away with a net impression that I promised you that you also can sell 250,000 customers. But if I don't give those extra context and I keep repeating the same statement, you are going to get that net impression.

to like one of the biggest marketers mistakes is you like exactly what you've said a lot of us think like we get taught all the psychology of creating that it's good so like people have all the two comma club awards right you don't see any of them behind here people film in front of the lamborghinis or on the yacht you know i don't do any you know i stopped all that

a long time ago and luckily I never really did the Lamborghini thing, but that creates a perception to the customer and the FTC are very strict. Like the best way to look at it is, you know, it's just some random person with low IQ that is going to be sucked into something. When you film with a Lamborghini or these two comic club awards, you're basically saying, if you do this thing, you're going to have the Lamborghini. And I know that kind of sounds crazy for me to say, but,

That's how you want to look at these things. That's the average consumer looks at these things. It's quoted again and again and again and again and again in cases. The Lamborghinis, the flamboyant lifestyle, they bring it up all the time. It almost seems like they have a particular just zest for it. They don't like it. So just FYI. And that takes us right to number three, okay? And we're going to end up talking about this again. So three is claims.

Claims is an easy place for them to come because they know most marketers have no substantiation for their claims. There's four types of claims. Earnings claims, express earnings claims, implied earnings claims, performance claims, and lifestyle claims. I'll give you a quick example. Express earnings claims are, here's how to make $10,000 in the next 30 days.

Now, innately, I understand most marketers hear that and go, that sounds dicey. But you'd be surprised how many times I see it all the time. But that's a very specific. So if you're going to make that claim, you better have damn overwhelming evidence that that is a truthful claim and that that is the experience of a typical customer that finishes your program.

I've read his key too, because I used to believe, well, I have examples of this, but it has to be, if you take literally a statistical average, if you take every single buyer, was that the average that you can prove and want to go to court and fight about? It's not even me.

prove it yeah don't think it's cool i'm fighting about it so it's just like you can all see it's almost never a typical scenario so um number two is called an implied earnings claim implied earnings claim is um uh let's get you to quit your nine to five job and get you into that dream home that you've always wanted that's an implied earnings claim

I'm implying a certain result that in your mind is giving a certain monetary because you think your dream homes want a $2 million house. So you think I make 2 million from this. Believe it or not. Yes, this is a problem. Like this is an implied earnings claim. What I got in trouble for at the end of the day, my whole case came down to four words that were set on some of my sales calls. They say it was on all of them, but we didn't know. I had no idea that this is a problem. And that is what is your goal?

My salespeople would ask, what is your goal? The person would say, I want to make $12,000 a month or whatever, retire my husband. The salesperson would say, we can help you with that. Implied earnings claim.

That's literally what my entire case came down to. - I think like we, you know, and maybe I'm interested in your opinion. We still ask people around like, you know, what they want to achieve in their business and where they're at and their gaps and strengths and weaknesses. But I think what you obviously got pulled up for, which is how the FTC view it, is if you basically daisy chain that into now an earnings claim. So if someone says,

i want to get become a millionaire you go oh great well this program is going to show you how to do those things because now you're changing off the back of basically setting a revenue

And you're now, yeah, you can do that. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. If you're benchmarking it, or if you're perceived to be implying. So if someone ends up saying something like that on a call, it's the job of the salesperson to say, Hey, I hear you. It's a great goal to have, but we want to be very clear that that's not what we do here. We're here to teach you these skills, the results and all of that is not guaranteed, not typical in tech too. So if you go out of your way to do that, again, the net impression on the person will be correct.

So the third type of claim is called performance claims. So this is for those of you who are, you know, talking about performance. You're not, you're talking about, here's how to increase conversion on your website by 28%. Here's how to lose 32 pounds. These are not

earnings claims but their performance claims same rules apply last but not least lifestyle so it's when you show keep showing yourself on the yachts and on the this and the private jets and the lambos these are lifestyle claims if you're talking to someone on a private jet about showing them how to build a business

The assumption that you're giving on that point is, hey, you too can build a business and live the lifestyle I live. And they really, really, really hate these. They call these out all the time, by the way. Okay. All right. The reason they hate it for the audience listening is,

Most people in life aren't entrepreneurs like us where we might disassociate and go, yeah, that's BS, whatever. Right. Most audiences watching, literally they watch the Lamborghini and then they go, if I buy this program, I can be the next Tai Lopez. Right. And that's where they're at.

have a problem that the average consumer doesn't always maybe critically analyze how an entrepreneur may critically analyze. So you have to go into it knowing that. And then I think the other thing to point out too is the point number three is

you might say, well, why can't you say you can have a 20% conversion rate? And you have to understand that because basic logic goes, well, if you increase X amount of conversion rate this much, it equates to this amount of revenue. So it's basically a step before an earnings claim because you're, again, daisy chaining it into outcome that's probably linked to an earnings claim, right? So you've got to be really careful again there.

Yep, yep, yep. Number four, moving around, it's just substantiation. So I'll give you an example. People don't realize the level of substantiation that's required by the FTC. Anything that you say that's considered an absolute statement. An absolute statement is basically a statement of fact. So I said in my past webinars that I was voted top three entrepreneurs under 25 by Businessweek.

Truthful. Problem is this business week got bought out by Bloomberg. Bloomberg nuked it. All the websites, everything is gone. And I don't anymore have a copy of the magazine where that article is there. Couldn't find it anywhere. And so the FCC came along and said, we want substantiation and proof of that claim you've made. It's a big claim. You're talking about a big journal giving you a big award. And thank God what we did is we found the link.

And we found archive and we used way back machine to go find that we were able to prove it. But that was very enlightening to me realized, gosh, man, you got to look through your copy and every absolute statement, whether it be income related or not needs to be substantiated. And here's a killer. Here's a kicker for you. The test is this going to, well, I'll wait for number five because we'll cover it in that. But bottom line, look through your copy and look for statements that are, that are 30

Three out of four doctors recommend this product. Really? Show me the study. Substantiate it. Don't just tell me you called eight doctors and six of them recommended it. That's not a study. You're going to say something as strong as three out of four doctors recommend this. You better have a proper commissioned study that would stand up in court. So substantiation and proper substantiation. A lot of times a substantiation is as simple as a link to an article.

Okay, great. But other times, the bigger the claim, the bigger the substantiation, the more proof that substantiation needs. And it's the first thing they come for. I heard a guru make a post that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say. I was somewhat of influence who said,

don't, they said something to the effect of just don't lie. The FTC doesn't care about substantiation. They don't look for that. I'm like, are you kidding me? My entire civil investigative document, 38 pages that took me 18 months to fulfill 600,000 documents turned over. The entire thing was about substantiation. That's literally all it was about.

What we have is a spreadsheet, right? So like we have every testimonial and the link to the original source, every, you know, if we say 5,000, the link to that, if we're really featured in entrepreneur here. So I really encourage you guys to have like this resource pool that your team use, your copy team, social team, ad team.

'cause then A, it's only pre-approved stuff that I've seen and signed off on. 'Cause one thing that you also need to watch, which I'm sure you maybe cover if you have time is even if your team do it or even an affiliate of yours or someone associated to you says these- - They're responsible.

Liable, right? So it's really important to have a good process internally for approval of everything. Yeah, no, absolutely. All right, and then continuing on. So the number five of the Pentagon of Compliance, right, is they just made a big stink about it again this morning. They make a stink about this every few months. So guys, listen up because this is the number one entry point.

this is the back door they use to every company testimonials they know every marketer is using testimonials and endorsements incorrectly there are four rules to testimonials these are not breakable and this is going to hurt this is where most marketers get pinched the most number one you have to have a signed release in an affidavit of any testimonial so just because they've posted publicly inside of your public facebook group something great about you

It's public group. I get that. But you take a screenshot of that and shove it in your marketing without their permission, written permission. You are actually breaking the rules and they can sue you. And there are many cases of this where the customers come back and taking the big chunk of claim of revenue saying you use my name and likeness. Okay. Number one, not a big deal on it. We can get signatures from our testimonials. Great. Let's move on to number two. Substantiation. Interesting.

So Rudy, you come to me and say, Anik, thanks for, thanks to all your training. I made a hundred thousand dollars and I take that screenshot and I shove it in my marketing. The rules say I have to message, I have to get substantiation from Rudy. Say, Rudy, prove it.

prove that you made a hundred thousand dollars from my training now that starts to get a little intrusive so but that's required now people say well why rudy said it not me true but then you took it and shoved it in your marketing now you're saying it so you have to have substantiation and proof that he actually did that and was actually linked to your training that too there is actually why we just took all any sort of claim off every time too

It's almost unrealistic to say to your customer, oh, that's great. Just send us your Stripe screenshots. It's too invasive. And you know what? I'm telling you guys right now, I'll give you the punchline at the end of this, and it'll be something that you have to adjust to, but you'll thank me for it later. So the third rule of testimonials is where everyone falls apart, is typicality.

Okay, you want to use a results based testimonial. Great. Prove the typicality of it. Prove that the average customer who completes your program. I'll give you that. I know the average customer never takes your program. Fine. Let's what's the results of the average person that does complete your program?

You can only go within a certain margin of that. So if the average result of the person who completes your program is that they start making a thousand a month, great. You can use and you've got typicality that's proven and signed off by an attorney. Go ahead and use that result. You can use that much, but you can't then cherry pick the guy who made a hundred thousand when the average result is a thousand. Most results based testimonials need to end because

because no one can improve typicality. Even if you can get substantiation, if it's not typical, you can't use it. Last but not least, you need to use proper disclosures throughout your copy, not just at the beginning and end. Every time you have testimonials, whether they be results-based or not, there has to be a disclosure and disclaimer. So here's the new rule with testimonials that we use in our company, and I've loved it. I absolutely love it, and it works brilliantly as we use character and description.

just general character and experience testimonials. So someone to talk about how great Anik is or how great this book is.

but not about any results they received from it. And what I have found is it doesn't matter. People like to see testimonials just for the social proof aspect of saying, hey, there are other happy people that don't feel like they got scammed from this product, so I feel comfortable buying it. Sure, the results might help, but it brings the wrong type of customer in. It actually brings the down market customers in. The up market, the better customers, they actually don't like that stuff. They think it's hypey. They think it's bullshit.

So those are the five rules, guys. If you can abide by these five rules, we have significantly reduced, significantly reduced your exposure to regulator risk, not just the FTC, state governments, consumer law, class action. And it's not that hard to do. Rudy, you're a prime example. You said, hey, we did it and we're doing great. We're thriving. I'm telling you, we did it. We didn't see a change in conversion. If anything, I saw a bit of an uptick in conversion. Yeah, and I think it's like,

You know, you will go through maybe a bit of mental blocks. I really did at one point. I said, well, you know, maybe I should just not be a marketer anymore. But then like the great thing about most marketers, which makes us great in the first place is we're creative. So you just have to, again, be creative. And how can I do this compliantly, not try and trip the system, but like, how can I, you know, if I want some urgency, I go to myself, well, maybe I'm going to give the first 10 customers this extra product. Right. And

And then I just want to say really important with point number five, because this was a shock to me too. We talked about testimonials, but we also talked about income claims. There's a couple of myths there that I teach my members a lot. Number one, you can't have an income claim

and then just slap a little disclaimer at the bottom that says results aren't typical. That's not justifiable in their eyes. It's like breaking the law, but then saying, well, this might not, you know, like you can't break the law and then have a little disclaimer to say, well, I'm not actually breaking the law 'cause I've got this. And then a lot of people also make the mistake of they have the results aren't typical,

down at the bottom in their footer. So the FTC law is you have to have it in the prominent screen where the claim or whatever is being made. So if you have a headline, how to make $100,000, you shouldn't have that in the first place. But if you were, you have to have the disclaimer in the same screen

screen, right? As the, whatever you're showing, if you're showing a testimony, it has to be in that same screen. And it also has to be readable at a general same size font. So you can't make it size 10 gray when the rest of your font size 20 black and bold, because again, you're trying to system. So some nuances that you

super important. And with testimonials, like now we just get experience-based testimonials. Like we said, we stay done in any sort of revenue. So it's like really, that's why it's great. The energy, the motivation, the accountability, learning from experts and knowing exactly what to do has been such a help, right? So stuff like that,

It's great and it can still work. So yeah, you know that we could spend all day talking about this. Like I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars learning this and hundreds of hours learning this. And obviously you have to, but

You know, you guys, hopefully this podcast got you started on some big things and you probably don't have to do the hundreds of hours. Just go buy the book. And honestly, if you want to sign up for the software, I mean, it's an awesome tool to just get everything scanned. So you don't have to pay attorneys thousands of dollars like I do to scan everything. And yeah. And again, any final points?

No, no, just want to invite people go to don't say that.com. If you want to grab a copy of this book, it's a, there's a digital version for just a few bucks and you can read it right away. Don't say that.com. And then of course the software is at complyly.com C O M P L I L Y.com. Come check us out. By the time this episode comes out, we probably have already released the free scan feature, which helps you get a,

you know, some free usage to test us out. But we're really trying our best to help empower companies and business owners and stuff and others to know what is compliant, what is right. And thank you for having me on, Rudy. Thank you for letting me share my story and sharing the message and spreading the good news of compliance.

Of course, yeah. I mean, look, as everyone graduates in business, it's your due diligence as the owner and CEO to start learning this stuff. And it's become much more apparent in the last five years. So don't sit on the sidelines and you don't shrug under the rug a lawsuit, right, or a credit card statement that's past you. So don't do the same with this. Take it seriously.

at your business and and i mean you know obviously it's not great you went through that experience i wouldn't wish that on anyone but i do appreciate what you're doing for the industry now off the back of it so you know kudos to you and coming on and uh sharing this with our members and audience so good stuff thanks for having me thanks for having me man all right catch you all right guys keep living the red life see you guys soon take care