Ep 1053 | Jase Adopts a Trick to Combat Spiritual Warfare & Why We Can’t Predict the End of Days
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Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Did you guys keep up with what Sadie was doing? I know I mentioned it in the previous podcast, Gather 25. You told us about it. I'm very curious. I didn't get to see any of it because I was busy doing events and stuff, but I'm very curious as to what happened. This is the first time I've heard of it.

First you've heard of it, but it was, we watched it. So it was Jenny Allen out of, I think she's had a Watermark Church. She actually goes to church with the Shanes. They were part of it too, Shane and Shane. Well, what is the Gather 25? What does that mean? Yeah, so 25, 2025 was the year. Oh, 2000, because I was like, if I was going to try to gather everybody up, I'd shoot for more than 25. That seemed like a low number to you. Yeah.

So they did the global church gathering in 2025. So I think they picked all seven continents. They had different places that they would have these events and kind of like 24 hours of worship, prayer. So there were different Christian leaders on all the continents of the earth at the same time. Yeah. Okay. And they all spread out. It was cool. Jill put it on. And so Saturday was like...

The one event that Sadie was at was in London, which we left early because I was like, man, we should have stayed. It's pretty awesome. But I was having a conversation with Jill about I was working on my lesson because I taught. We're in the book of Mark at our church, and I was teaching on Mark.

And I was working on it. I was trying to give her the lesson to get some feedback. And she's like, wait, wait, what's going on here? Because he had the event on the screen that what they were doing. I said, well, turn it up. She's like, well, it is up. I said, no, to turn the volume up. She's like, no, the volume is all the way up. I was like, I can't hear anything. She said, I know. That's why I wanted to watch it. And it was the whole building of probably, I don't know how many people, hundreds of people just face down,

in complete silence before the Lord. And then one of the ladies got up that was on the worship team, I guess, and just started to lead the entire group in a prayer of renewal and asking God to come and asking for revival. And it was such...

a powerful moment. I mean, me and Jill, like Jill got on the floor and started praying. I was like, wait, what am I supposed to do? And so I got on the floor and we started praying. And it was such a special moment because she was praying a prayer of like repentance. And when I was in prayer, I had this thought, I've been praying for like the last 30 days about how does God want us to interact in culture and all these things I've been praying for. And I wanted to read you this verse.

that came to mind as I was in this posture of prayer, because man, it was so powerful. I've heard this verse like so many times, but I'd never really heard it in this light as I was hearing it, as I was praying. And this is answering the question of how do we engage in culture as Christians? And I've heard this verse read so many times, but I'd never heard it quite like this. Verse 14 of 2 Chronicles 7. If my people, if my people,

who are called by my name.

humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways. Then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sin and heal their land. And I've heard this verse a thousand times, but I think I always thought that verse meant if like the nation would fall to her knees and repent, then God would heal us. But he doesn't say that. He says, if my people, those who are called by my name, he's talking to people who bear the name of Jesus. Like if we bear the name of God,

We are the ones that are called to humble ourselves and pray and seek his face and turn from our wicked ways. Then he says he'll hear from heaven and we'll forgive our sin and heal our land. And it was like this moment, guys, I'm telling y'all, like, I think there's like this global movement that's starting of like renewal and revival. I really believe it. And there were seeds of that this weekend. So if you got a chance, y'all need to check that out. Gather 25. I think there's some of the some of this on YouTube.

But it was powerful. And Sadie spoke at one, by the way. She spoke at the one in London. Which is pretty awesome. Well, I did see a new poll. Who's the group that does the poll? Pew. I saw that. Pew Research. Yeah, that was like the first time in, what, 100 years? No, I don't know how many years it was. A lot of years. A lot of years that there were actually an uptick in people.

Putting their faith in Jesus. Yeah. I don't know how they worded it, but... Right. It had been in a decline for a while. Oh, it's like it's been in a decline and it stopped. And so that's what's been interesting. We've been seeing that at our church, and I wondered if it was anecdotal. I don't think it is, because I think what you just mentioned, I saw the head of Wikipedia, I think, just came to Christ. I saw...

RFK's running mate who was like big in the Green Party in Silicon Valley just got baptized. I mean, you keep Russell Brand, you keep hearing these stories and we're seeing that in our church. And I'm like, what's happening here? I really believe it, that like something is happening.

And I think that what is interesting is that renewal and revival has always, always came after individual people just getting on their face before the Lord and repenting of sin. All the great awakenings came out of a movement of repentance and of God's people. And so I think we're in this really interesting time of

I don't know if you guys are seeing that in the unashamed land. Are you seeing revival in your areas? Well, and certainly the people that I've had conversations with when I'm out on the road of just people who connected with us on our podcast, uh,

And they tell me their stories, their own personal walk and finding of Christ. But then what we're providing here in these Bible discussions is, in essence, a discipleship training program for what it means for new believers. And I take that. I mean, we're very humbled to be able to do that. And I tell people all the time, you know, even the three of us without dad, you know,

have a lot of combined experience of studying and teaching the word of God. And so we take that as a huge responsibility. I mean, we like to have fun. This is a Robertson style Bible study, but at the same time,

What we're doing with the scripture and how we're approaching it. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but we all speak publicly as well. I treat our podcast and our time together just like I would if I was presenting a sermon or teaching a series at a church or whatever. Well, we're constantly learning and growing, connecting the dots of the Bible. I know some of this gets deep sometimes, but like we said last podcast, we're

Even Paul called this a mystery. Yeah. I mean, the whole plan of God in Ephesians 1, he said this was a mystery, and it was kept hidden. And there is something to be said in the Bible about the God versus the little g gods. Yeah. And the power of God against all other powers that are anti-God. And so...

It is confusing because even his disciples didn't get it till after the fact. Right. And for us, it should be easier because now after the fact, you can go back and connect all the dots. But it is a mystery that is revealed in Jesus to God's plan. And he seeks us.

He's seeking, but he seeks those who are seeking truth. Yeah. That's the interesting part about it. He is the one doing the seeking.

And he's looking for those who are looking for answers. I mean, it's just like. Yeah, you turn, you turn. If you turn your face. Yes. He says, seek my face. Seek my face. And that was interesting, that phrase, because yesterday at church, I preached on the right coming off of Judas's, Jesus prophesying that Judas would sell him out. And then he immediately, in Mark, he immediately turns to the rest of the 12, the other 11, says, hey, guess what?

All of you are going to leave me and I'm going to walk that road alone. And they all did leave him and he was completely abandoned and he suffered a cruel death on a Roman cross. He walked the hill of Golgotha all by himself and we all abandoned him. Everybody abandoned him. And we had this moment in church where like we all get on our face. People were like in the aisles on their knees, repenting of sin. And later that afternoon,

A couple came over to our house, and me and Jill were just praying with them and talking with them. This is a couple that recently became a Christian, both of them, and they just moved here.

And she grew up pagan. So she grew up in like more of a Wiccan culture. She said, I didn't go to the doctor growing up. She grew up in England. She said, if I got sick, I went to a witch and, and they would perform whatever. He grew up very kind of new age mysticism. And one of the things that he said to me yesterday that hit, and it goes into what we've been talking about, particularly with this whole temple language in John chapter two, because I think like,

I mean, Jason, you said it like that was complicated. We got deep in the last podcast. Agree. But you say, why? Why does it matter? Here's what matters. He said, he said, I'm going to tell you guys why what we have seen and why we came to know Jesus is that in all of our pursuits in in witchcraft and all of our pursuits in new age mysticism and all of our pursuits that we've we've gone after. We've never felt we've never had a term he called the felt presence of God.

of the Lord, the felt presence of the Lord until we came to know Jesus. And that happened here recently. And I thought, man, that's why this matters because what's happening in John 2, what

When Jesus is claiming that he's going to rebuild this temple, you destroy this temple and I'll rebuild it in three days. The reason why that matters is because, as Jace said in the previous podcast, the temple is the place where God's presence is known. The temple is the place where God and man meet. The temple is the place where heaven and earth meet. And so for Jesus now to embody that and to become that temple,

and then to send us the Holy Spirit, as he's going to tell us later in the book of John, it's ultimately, he is the way that we experience the felt presence of God. I mean, I think this conversation has profound significance, and I think it is directly related to the renewal and the revival movement that I think is happening and beginning right now across the entire globe. ♪

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That's liberty.edu slash unashamed. No excuses. Now is the time to get started. So I wanted to read another prophecy.

because Jace got me to thinking about it when he was in the last podcast in Amos. And there's another one that, again, I think most people have always looked at this and went all the way forward to the end of time. Because again, the heading says the day of judgment. So everybody's like, oh yeah, well, that's got to be the final coming of Christ. But think about it if this were talking about what we've been studying in John 2. Listen to what he says. This is the mouth. Now this is before he gets to the end. This is right at the end.

before we then have these moments of silence, then we get to Matthew. This is Malachi 3. See, I will send my messenger who will prepare the way for me. Well, we know who that is. That's John the Baptist because he's going to explain that clearly in chapter 4 of Malachi. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple.

The messenger of the covenant whom you desire will come, says the Lord Almighty. Listen to this. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? Everybody's like, yeah, that's got to be the end of time. For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. He will sit as refiner and purifier of silver. He will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

Sounds a lot like somebody come in and turn it over tables and saying, no, no, you're getting wrong. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord as in the days gone by as in the former years. So,

So if you just imagine the possibility of that happening when Jesus actually came to the earth and what he did by flipping the temple and saying, I am the temple, it would change your entire perspective over now the time that we live in. We're still looking forward to the final coming of Christ, but we're just saying that these passages seem a lot, they make a lot more sense if it happened in the day of Jesus.

Well, and because the point is of the whole scripture is God is going to make us home with man. Like that's the big, that's the big meta narrative. And the reality is he's doing that now. Come be a part of it. Join us. Be a member of the kingdom of heaven on earth in this moment. So it makes people realize this is what God is doing now through Jesus.

Exactly. There's a purpose here. Because I think if you don't put all these dots together, you tend to just be sitting there, as I coined one time, waiting for a ride. Yes. You know? Which is why I think the churches are so boring sometimes, you know, and so judgmental because they're just like,

We're just waiting on a ride. This place is, you know, nothing you can do with it. Have you ever seen that when you're leaving the airport, Jace, and you look around and there's people waiting on their Ubers? They're looking at their phones. They're just like, oh, if I could only get a ride. If I could just get a ride. That's how hitchhiking became a thing. Exactly, because you've got to be on the move. I just need a ride. Well, what are you doing while you're hitchhiking? Nothing. That's right.

So that's why when I read that Ephesians 2, if God has made his dwelling among you now and you've become the temple of the living God on earth, your life would look drastically different wherever you go. It's funny because the picture, once you start to see this, I will go ahead and tell you, once you start to see this in the scripture, you're not going to be able to unsee it. You won't because you'll see this thread everywhere.

is all the way through. And you don't have to figure out all these crazy, like, oh, this means, oh, these are Black Hawk helicopters and these are this. You don't have to do all that stuff. Which is a reference to people taking...

Some verses in Revelation and have them equated to Black Hawk helicopter, literally. Black Hawk. Or rumors of wars. Certain countries, right, right. Yeah, and you're trying to figure that out. And I mean, that's why everybody who tries to prophesy the second coming, who has given a date on it, has got it wrong so far. Like every single person who has said this is the date that it's going to be, unless the date's in the future,

All the ones that have gone before us, they've given us the dates. None of them have come true. It just seems so. Zach, I would also argue why there's so much argument about when the dates of these letters were written. Because a lot of people who have a different view of an actual temple being set up, they tend to date the Bible way later.

The problem with that is, then you have the most significant event that happened to Israel since, I would argue, the parting of the Red Sea, and they were liberated from Egypt. The destruction of the temple in AD 70, well then if you put these dates way later, then you now have the most significant event, which was the destruction of the physical temple in AD 70,

never being mentioned in the Bible. Yeah, that's a great point. Why would they never talk about that? When it had been pointed to so much. I mean, the literal temple was destroyed in AD 70, and the Bible never mentions it? That's right. Well, then I'm not a smart fellow, but I'm thinking, I guess this was written before that happened. Yeah.

I think that the picture that you get once you start to go down this trail is the picture is not the songs that we sang growing up, at least some of them, that shaped our imagination. I was thinking of one the other day, which I love this song, by the way, How Great Thou Art. I love that song. But there's a line in it that says, when Christ shall...

shall return with shots of acclamation and take me home. What joy shall fill my heart? It really, the real picture in revelation is that when Christ shall come with a shot of acclamation and make his home,

Because heaven and earth are coming together. That's that picture that you get when you get to the end of the Bible about the new city where God's going to make us home with humans now. He says the dwelling place of God is with man. And God makes his home with us. And I think it's such a real, tangible, beautiful picture of the narrative arc. It's almost like

We're being restored back to Eden. No, we are. And I'll read the verse. I've read it many times with that. Revelation 21, 22 says, I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the lamb are its temple. I'm not sure how you square through that. Yeah, we've read it before, but I just...

I don't know what you're going to do with that. Look, especially when it's so good news that God has chosen, despite all our flaws and our past, to live with human beings in such an intimate setting, down deep into your inner soul and being. And it makes the spiritual warfare aspect of it way more real. I mean, the other night when I went to that event, I shared on the last podcast, you know,

I dare say there was a little voice in me saying, you represent the Lord God Almighty. So it wasn't about me overcoming temptation as much as it was, I need to share Jesus with these people as an ambassador of Christ and my partnership with God in this vocation and ministry of sharing Jesus to an earth.

fill with people who need it. So I did it, which I noticed, oh, by the way, I also did way less sinning because I was busy doing something for the Lord. And I think it's okay to say that because you're like, well, you can't technically do anything. No, but I'm partnered with the Holy Spirit. And when you're in a setting where there's a lot of sin going on,

the best thing you can do is start talking about Jesus. Yeah. Because it draws a line in the sand. Right. Because we're cutting, we're trying to cut away wasted time. Everything becomes about the expediency of telling as many people about Jesus as possible. Exactly. You realize we're only in this phase of it for a period of time. You know, we got to make the biggest impact we can. Think about this, the verse that we're in, that we were talking about last podcast. We're in it again. I want to read something to you, and then I want to,

I want to make a point and I want to read another verse to you. This is in John chapter two. This is what we're talking about. Jesus answered them because he turns over the temples, the tables in the temple. They said, what's your authority? And this is his answer. Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days. They replied, it's taken us 46 years to build this temple. Are you going to raise it in three days? But the temple that he had spoken of was his body.

And after he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he said and

Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. Now, this verse like sits right in the center of John or at the end of John chapter two. It's kind of like a key part of the whole story. And to not deal with this is to lessen its significance. You say, well, is this just some kind of weird thing that's in the Bible? Because there are things in the Bible that we read that like,

Highly debated, maybe. No one really knows what it means. Yeah, we all have different opinions on this, but does it really matter? Here's why I think it matters. If you look in Mark 14, listen to how much this mattered, what Jesus just said. This is how much it mattered. This is in Mark 14, verse 55.

the chief priest and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they couldn't find any. So they want to kill Jesus here. They're looking for evidence. Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. Then,

Some of them stood up and gave this false testimony against him. So whatever this false testimony that's about to come, it's of tremendous significance because this is the testimony that got Jesus killed. Verse 58, what was the false testimony? Here it is. We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days build another not made with hands.

That's the testimony that got Jesus killed. So you say, why does it matter? Did it matter what Jesus said? Yeah, because what he said in John 6, I mean, John 2, that was the accusation that was brought up

When they almost condemned him to death, it was the accusation they brought against him. The reason why they killed Jesus was because of what he said in John 2. Now, they misrepresented him because he never said, I will destroy this temple. He said, destroy, you destroy this temple, and I'll rebuild it in three days. He never said he would destroy it.

They said that. By the way, this is the same exact thing they got Stephen stoned in the book of Acts. He talked about the temple and basically said the same thing that Jesus said. So I don't think we can look at this text in John 2 and say, oh, this is just a weird thing that's in there. It doesn't really have any central preference or priority in us understanding the entirety of the Bible. This is one of those things you just got to agree to disagree. No, it's a centerpiece.

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It's a theme line of the whole Bible. And Jase and I both believe, and we talked about this on a previous podcast, that the reason John put this in, because I think, Jase, you and I both believe this is the same incident that happens at the end of the chronological Gospels, but John had a reason why he put it here. And look, because the reason I think that is because right after that, Zach, in verse 23, it says, Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many people saw miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. That's a broad statement.

of a lot of miracles he did that caused a lot of people to look at it. But why did John include just seven out of all the thousands of miracles that Jesus did? There was, he was making a point throughout his entire, but one of them has the following text. Uh, now I'm gonna have to go look it up after this happened with, remember that time when Jesus said, uh,

they were asking about authority. Same question, because this was about signs. I mean, one of the other Gospels. And then they have this scene of him. This is right after he cleared the temple. And then they question his authority. And then he gave that illustration about John's baptism. Was it from heaven or from men? Oh, yeah. So I'm saying that seems to fit more

With the John 2, why are we bringing up John the Baptist? Because he happened right off the bat. Right. But I don't know. Maybe it could be just a coincidence. It could be. But my point is, as you're looking that up, he laid out a very –

stark narrative. And we're about to get into Nicodemus, which I think again is very much on purpose because this is a leader in Israel that's going to come into this situation now with Jesus. And he doesn't understand either. I mean, he doesn't understand at all what's happening. And when Jesus lays it out to him, he's stunned. Yeah. To hear what, what Jesus is actually here for. Do you find it? Yeah. It's Mark 11, uh,

So this is quite a ways into Mark. Yeah, because Mark's only got 16 chapters. Let's see. Well, yeah. Okay, yeah. So look, so Mark 11, 12 is where Jesus clears the temple. Yep. So there is one little scene in between the withered fig tree. But then it says in verse 27, they arrived again in Jerusalem while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests. So it's right after he cleared the temple. Right.

It says, and who gave you authority to do this? And Jesus replied, I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I'm doing these things. John's baptism, was it from heaven or from men? Tell me. Of course, they discussed it, said, well, if we say from heaven, he'll say, well, why didn't you believe him? But if we say from men, they feared the people, for everyone held that John really was a prophet. So they answered Jesus, well, we don't know.

Of course, I really wanted to hear Jesus' answer here. Exactly. And like his basis for making the answer. They gave him a Jen Psaki answer. We're going to circle back and get back to you. Well, I'm not going to tell you by what authority I'm doing these things. Because it would have been helpful. My whole point for bringing that up is because now we make a transition, or John does, and

Like verse, where did we leave off? Verse 23, when he says, now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, which I think is an important context for what's fixed to happen, at the Passover feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. Yeah, this is interesting. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew...

What was in a man, and I'm not going to stop there just because I think it matters the next verse because it's like, now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish council. I think he falls into the category that everyone else does also, that Jesus is not trusting you

for answers right and rightfully so but because if you were going to trust anyone as a religious people in this day Nicodemus would probably be high on the list because he was a member of the Jewish ruling council and so they get into quite the discussion after that so I don't know if you want to stop and talk about that what that means about him not

Well, I was just curious to what y'all thought about that, because that's an interesting way of how John puts that. He wouldn't entrust himself to them because he knew what was in them. Probably because they didn't understand. Yeah. They got it wrong. Yeah.

He knows how we think. Right. My first thought was, I thought looking ahead to John 8, remember when it was after the feeding of the 5,000, which we'll get into, and it said then he did other things and they believed in him. But the minute he started asking them questions, they quickly didn't believe in him because they went from believing in him to picking up rocks. Remember at the end of that, trying to kill him? Yeah.

And so I think that's what he means. He knew they weren't ready. I think it goes into the thought, I don't know, I'm just speculating. You know, those verses where Paul,

Paul says that God doesn't need anything from us. He himself gives all men and life. Because we tend to be like that. Oh, like we're doing God some favor, you know, that he needs us for whatever. No, he doesn't. That's why he'll make verses, statements that seem complex. Remember when he says, for I didn't, you didn't choose me, but I chose you. Yeah. It's not based on you saying,

what you think about me, obviously you don't know or you wouldn't need me. Right. You know, so. And he knows, I mean, I think in his life,

divine knowledge, I think this is an appeal here to the divinity of Christ. He knows what's in your heart. He's looking at the crowd and he knows what each person is up to. He's able to discern and say, I'm not going to entrust myself to these people because I know what's in them. Some of them maybe weren't legit. I want to back up one thing to that Mark 11 that you were mentioning. I do think it's worthy of note.

The Mark 11 passage, I'm not 100% convinced that's the same event as John 2 in the clearing of the temple. One reason is because there was different. When asked about the authority, there's two different answers. But I just think even where it's at in the text, I don't know if it's the same event. But I don't think it is. I think we can all agree that we don't know. And if somebody claims they—we're not omniscient.

It's just weird that in three of the Gospels, it happens much later. And in one, it happens... My deal is if you weren't tied to a...

of a story, then you could pop things in wherever you wanted to. I tend to agree with that. I think, yeah. I mean, but if it is multiple occasions, I don't think that that would be against the nature of Jesus. He's very, very concerned about the temple. I think that it just highlights the concern. But I love the Mark 11 passage because it says something in Mark 11

He references an Old Testament passage in Mark 11, mainly around what is the goal of the temple and the purpose of the temple. And I think it's important when he, because in John 2, when he gets upset, he's more upset. It seems to me that he's more upset that they've just turned it into this

marketplace. It's a money thing. But in Mark 11, it gives a little more flavor to what Jesus is actually upset about. I wanted to read it because it fits into what we're saying and what we said in the last podcast about the Gentiles being grafted in or to use language like, I will call people who are not my people, my people, or to use the language that you use out of Amos.

We're talking about nations and Edom and versus Israel and all that. Listen to what Jesus says whenever he's upset with them. He says, is it not written that my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations? But you've made it a den of robbers. Jace, I got a question for you. Yeah. What do Andrea Bocelli, Steph Curry, Justin Bieber say?

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The issue was not that they made it a den of robbers so much as what that perverted. It perverted the intention of what it was. The purpose of God's house was not to not be a den of robbers. There was a purpose to be a house of prayer for all nations, which would be Jew and Gentile, every nation coming in. It was all the tribes. It was everybody coming into this house. And the reason why this matters is what we're saying in this podcast and what we've said repeatedly,

It's not a New Testament invention. In fact, if you go back and read the Old Testament in the light of what we're saying and what Jesus is revealing here, this stuff was always in the Old Testament. He doesn't make that verse up. That's a verse up. They've got a Deuteronomy. My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations. That's in the Old Testament. They just somehow missed it, but it was always there. This story was always there about God bringing in all the nations. So then you get to Nicodemus.

And it's interesting that he's talking to someone who is definitely high in the upper echelon of Israel, but he's making a point of grafting in the entire world into the kingdom. And you could always be, the Gentiles could always be outside the temple in the outer courts of it, but they couldn't get inside. That was the difference. Unless they went through the ritualizing part of Judaism. That's what's changed with Jesus. No, I thought the same thing. Look, yesterday I was at,

WFR and Dave was preaching, did a good job, but he was doing it on Ephesians 4, 20 through 24. And he was talking about your new mind and this transition. You know, if you read the verse, it's like, you know, put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its evil desires.

to be made new in the attitude of your minds and to put on the new self. So that's what he talked about. Yeah. But that last little phrase, which he didn't really talk too much about, that's what I thought for our discussion, because it says created to be like God in true righteousness and wholeness. I'm like,

The reason they're having trouble wrapping their heads around this old building of a temple and the new temple is he's, from John 1-1 all the way to now, he's introducing a new creation. It's not that just he's the temple that he's dying and being buried and raised, but the people who then surrender to him become part of that new creation. This is making everything right. Right.

And that's why it emphasizes on what he's doing now in our life, because that's why when he goes into the practical things here, and I've used this illustration numerous times here, but in verse 28 of Ephesians 4, when he says, he who has been stealing must steal no longer. To your point, Zach, it's not about so much you're robbing the temple, right?

It's that, but he must work doing something useful with his own hands so that he may share with something. He's looking at what the new creation is going to bring by him dying for our sins, overcoming the evil powers against us, creating this world.

hope of never dying. And in the meantime, you now functioning as members of his kingdom and showing that God is here. Let's just think about the difference that you go from being near the presence of God once a year

We're talking about under the old system to having the presence of God live in you. Yeah. I mean, you're talking about a leap here. This is quantum leap. Yeah. The vision is not the vision of the kingdom, the gospel of the kingdom, the quote, you know, Jesus in Mark chapter one.

The gospel of the kingdom is not a negation of all the things you can't do. Oh, Zach, preaching. So good. 90, I would say over 90% of these sermons in America on every Sunday is what you don't

It's like he died for your sins, and now you got to clean that up and have as few as possible, and then you might make it. Maybe. What are we supposed to be doing? What happened to the new self? And we wonder, man, why is this not selling well? Why have we been in decline for decades? Which brings us, I think, to John 3, one of the most...

Controversial. There's more ways to believe what in the world is he talking about here. And so we're going to

hang out here for a while because there's multiple views of what this means. Yeah. But I do think it's a good foundation to realize that what started John's conversation about this is that Jesus wasn't trusting what men thought. That's right. And remember the context of where we are from John's perspective, everything we're looking at is through John's perspective. And it was during the Passover feast, which I think is going to be important to my take on this. And I'll see what y'all think.

But I'll just, you want to read it? Yeah, well, read the first two verses. Let me give a little bit of background, then you can go from there. Because remember, we got new wine, and we got the clearing of the temple, and then we got this incident. So remember those two coming into it. Well, and we're introduced something that Mark quickly gets to in his gospel. But here, I think this is the first time that the kingdom of God is mentioned.

In John. Well, let me read the first two and set it up and then you go from there So there's a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus a member of the Jewish ruling council He came to Jesus at night and said rabbi We know you are a teacher who has come from God for for no one could perform the miraculous signs You were doing if God were not with it Let me just give you a couple of things about Nicodemus one is I found interesting his name in Greek means conqueror of the people and

which is interesting. So this guy is very much in high esteem. He is a member of the Pharisees, and we've talked about this in past podcasts. The Pharisees got to think, this goes all the way back to Daniel. These were separatists. These were guys that, under the Babylonian captivity, they didn't go with the Babylonian way. They stood for the godly way. That's where the Pharisees began. So this is 600 years. Which is good. Which is good. These were guys that stood for what was right. But unfortunately...

They added so much because the Mishnah, which was these things they wrote, they had 24 chapters, Jace, about keeping the Sabbath. Yeah. 24 chapters. Well, they took the Torah and then made a lot of additions. Exactly. So he was a Pharisee. He was a member of the Jewish ruling council, which is the Sanhedrin. That's a 70-member body. And if you were trying to put it in modern politics, it's like a

and Supreme Court all rolled into one. Yeah. You had the high priest and you had these guys. Which also made their system all performance based. Everything was. Exactly. And so the other thing I want to add on that is he comes to Jesus at night, which means one of two things to me. He's either trying to be super diplomatic because there's a lot of angst that's going on behind the scenes or he

He really is seeking, which is I think what it is, because later on we know, because we read the whole book of John, that he becomes a believer at the end. So that's the setup. Now here's my take. I'm going to read this, give you my take about the context.

Y'all, whatever you thought I believed on this, I've made a shift in my thinking. And it was because I thought, man, why are there so many disagreements on really what this phrase means where it says, and I'm going to just read this out of context first, where when Jesus, verse 5, after he tells Nicodemus, well, I guess I have, let me just read it, verse 3.

In reply, Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God. Felt like we needed a drum roll to that. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he's born again. Well, how can a man be born when he's old? Nicodemus asked. Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born. Now, I will just, before I read verse 5, I'll give you a little background.

When he says that born again in verse 3, there's a little letter behind it, and it says, or from above. Born from above. And I immediately... Does that sound familiar? Mm-hmm. In chapter 1, remember in verse 12, it says...

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent or of human decision or of a husband's will, but born of God or born from above. Still getting around to that fix on your car? You got this. On eBay, you'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers.

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Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. And then he starts talking about the wind. It blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from, where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. Nicodemus now, he's just like, smoke is rising off his head. He said, well, how can this be?

Now, this is one of the reasons I kind of changed the context of what I was taught is because of this next verse. Because he said, well, you are Israel's teacher and you do not understand these things. That made me stop in my tracks when I read this again for the 40 years of following Jesus. Because I thought.

He must have said something that he thought Nicodemus should have, being an Israelite of Israelites, that he should have been familiar with. So what I'm going to share with you is probably you're going to think, whoa, because that's the reason I started trying to look back to the Old Testament, thinking, why was Jesus thinking he should have known what he was talking about? And so I'll make that point at some point. We probably won't have time today.

But I want to keep reading. I tell you the truth. We speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you will not believe. How then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? So whatever he said, when he said there was some earthly things that he was talking about, the things that happened on the earth, which is the reason I have a new context for this.

Verse 13, no one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. Well, now he's speaking about himself in the third person. And that's the same phrase that he used back here at the ladder to Nathanael.

And I would argue, this is also connecting himself to prophetic vision that Daniel had in Daniel 7, anytime you see that word, son of man. Which also discusses what topic? Yeah. The kingdom. Right, yes. This coming kingdom. So before we do our next podcast, go back and read Daniel 2 and Daniel 7,

And look for key phrases, son of man and kingdom. Yep. And you'll find out that the kingdom that Daniel is prophesying about is an eternal kingdom. Correct. It will crush all other kingdoms. And he lists earthly kingdoms in the description of when the eternal kingdom would be established. And to make this foundation even stronger, right?

And remember, I've said this before, I put a lot of emphasis on, I was emphasizing the word emphasis. That's easy for you to say. Well, that was a joke. I was emphasizing emphasis. I know, I got it, I got it. So look, in Mark 1, the first thing he said in Mark, you remember what it was? Verse 14 says,

After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee proclaiming the good news of God. And here's the first red letters in Mark. The time is here. He said, the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news. What's he talking about? So not to get...

down that rabbit hole yet, because I want to get back to John. So then it says in verse 14 of John 3, just now, here's another reason I kind of looked at the context. Just as Moses, well, you think this guy was familiar with Moses? I think he knew Moses. Knew him like the back of his hand. In fact... Which is why he could just pull a quote out of numbers and knew he was talking about. Now, you see what the case I'm making for context of going back, because it's

He said, because I got to reading, I think the problem with just reading the first five verses and then asking the controversial question, which is, what did Jesus mean by being born of water and the Spirit? Right. That's the controversial statement. Right. And there's at least five views that I found on what people who are smart people who love God say.

Who disagree on. Yeah, scholars. Scholars everywhere, religious groups everywhere. There's a take on what did he mean by being. Now, we kind of get the spirit, but we're like, well, why did he throw in water in there? Right. What is that talking about? Right.

And boy, I'll save you some time because some of them, in my opinion, are just ridiculous. But people, God-loving people really think, because they just don't make, it doesn't make sense what he's talking about. Like a natural birth. Natural birth or even things I don't even want to say. Because water breaks. I'm too embarrassed to even say it in public. So, yeah. So verse 14, he says, just as Moses lifted up the snake...

So I'm building a pattern, and I've said this before and I'm saying it again. When Jesus came, because of the cryptic nature of the prophecy and all,

He's going back to fulfilling these prophecies, which are sometimes hard for us to wrap our head around 2,000 years later because it was in the Jewish Israelite world. So we go back and see how he fulfilled it. But we also go forward because at this point, he starts talking about he's going to baptize you with the Holy Spirit. So there's things that he's going back to, Moses,

You're Israel's teacher. Shouldn't you know what I'm talking about? And then he's also looking forward. And he also mentioned the line about, I've spoken to you about earthly things, like things that happened in the past. So then it gets to verse 16, which is another reason that I changed my view on the context of this. Because then he says, for God so loved the world.

that he gave his one and only son. Now look, we tend to focus on he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. But I focus just for the context on that first phrase, for God so loved the world. Well, who's he talking to? He's talking to an Israelite. He's bringing up what happened in Israel's history. He's bringing up Moses.

And now all of a sudden he's telling this guy, because what is this guy? What do we know about a Pharisee? He's thinking the only way you're getting to heaven is if you were born an Israelite. And now all of a sudden he says all this. He introduces this idea about born of the spirit. Then he says, for God so loved the world. Well, that seems like we're talking about everybody. Well, for Nicodemus, that had to be like, wait, what?

I mean, he focused on that first statement. He was like, I thought you were Israel. You know, we're representing Israel. You're talking about loving the world, the whole world. And this guy doesn't want to have anything to do with the world. All right, so we're out of time, but we've got a perfect...

cliffhanger leaving our place. John 3.16, the most famous verse. If you're ever going to leave a cliffhanger to a podcast, let's go with John. But you never gave us the answer, right? I never gave you the context. What does it mean to be born of the water and the spirit? The answer will come next time.

On Unashamed. What a cliffhanger. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.