Ep 1095 | Rebecca St. James Opens Her Heart to Jase & Missy About Infertility & Faith in Suffering
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I am unashamed. What about you?

Welcome back to Unashamed. Jace, we have our favorite two guests on the Unashamed podcast. You better say that. I mean, this is a no-doubter, no-brainer. And to make that even more spectacular, we dropped off a hitchhiker to pick up these two guests. So no Zach, add Lisa and Missy. I mean, I feel like this is a bit of a trend because the last three times I've been here, Zach...

Zach has conveniently not been here. So is it something personal? No, I'm going to tell you. Missy, he doesn't like you. We've been meaning to tell you this for a long time. He's like, I cannot deal with Missy. Y'all are going to have to do that podcast. I'm going to give you the truth. I'm kidding. No, I'm giving you the truth for the listeners. Okay.

This is the first time I'm going to give it a chance about, about our relationship was that, and it, and it's, you know, nothing profound, but just every once in a while we need a break. Yeah.

Maybe that's what he's thinking. Well, look, here's the problem. I've offered to take many breaks. Yeah, me too. You can't take one, babe. I don't get a break. I get no break. Here's what I think. I think whenever the girls are on here, Zach doesn't want to be on here because if we're not on here, then he's the pretty part of the podcast. Yeah. Well, in his mind. In his mind. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil used to say that about everyone. I mean, he's even said that about us. It's like if you think you're, you know, if he feels like you are getting a little bit too high on your horse, he would say, you're a legend in your own mind. He would kind of pause. He'd say, you're a legend in your own mind.

So on the last podcast, we prayed for Jill because he literally dropped out 10 minutes in because he was worried. And she was texting me about appendicitis. Turns out it was kidney stones for our audience to know, which is very painful and difficult. But she's doing okay. She's through the process of... Me and him had the funniest exchange because I was checking on her. Me too. Like every hour. Yeah. And he was acting surprised every time, which was very annoying to me. I'm like...

You rushed her to the hospital. Me and Al literally made up that podcast off the top of our head. Out of Romans 8. Out of Romans 8, because Al had a prayer, and I don't know, the spirit moved, and we just talked about prayer. We wound up having a great discussion about Romans 8. Yeah, we had a discussion, and we were a man down, which was, you know, you don't appreciate that, but you realize then we're missing a guy, which means we have to talk more, and it's difficult.

And he finally Not for you, Jason Are you really trying to convince the audience That talking more is difficult for you? No Hey, deep down I am a shy Oh boy We've heard that for years Maybe when you were 10 Oh boy Not now Yeah, I have This is I only do this Jason's being vulnerable Because the Lord put his hand on me and said Speak, if you believe, speak And you never looked back

Never looked back. This is not easy for me, babe. So look, he then says, good news, she has kidney stones. And I'm like, how can that be? Don't show that to her. So look, this is serious.

We then get into a debate over what good news means. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that you need to go reread your Bible. Good news is good in Jesus. I was like, kidney stones, not good news, but you should have phrased the question. It's not as bad as it could have been. Well, you're realizing he's in the middle of trauma with his wife, and you're distracting him trying to get him to explain the definition of good

versus debtor. All to make you understand more, his wife is in utter pain. I did think about that. I wasn't oblivious to that, babe, but in the moment, I was like, of all things, you can't use good news this way. Oh, goodness gracious. This is the theme of the Bible. I've come to bring you good news. I'm like, you can't make that illustration here. And look, Zach likes to argue, and we had a little argument on it.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Well, there's okay. Here's another little argument is not argument, but different perspective. When you came to tell me something last night after your middle son Cole called you. This is a daisy here. After he called you and you walked in and you said, well, I have some news. You saw you said and I thought, is it good or bad? And then I still think we had different perspective on it. But I think it's fantastic news. So you want to share that?

Well, my son called me and this kind of the theme of this podcast will be love is in the air because we have some guests. We have some amazing guests coming. Yes, we do. We do. And it kind of has a marriage theme and even if you're not married, at some point we hope you

You get married to Jesus. Or you know some married people. Yeah, you know some married people. So all apply. But we talk about love of Jesus too. We do. If you're listening to the podcast, we're hoping that you love Jesus. That's right. We're all made by God and a part of his family. And I've mentioned on several podcasts, the Bible is about God getting his family back. So it applies. Anyway, I told her, I was like,

Got some news because my son called me, and he was like, uh, Dad. So I knew just by that, uh, Dad, I thought whatever, the tone was different. And I was thinking, please be good, you know. But I was willing to deal with whatever it is, the fact he's calling me. And he said, I want to ask you something. And I was like, fire away. And so I could tell he was nervous. So it was making me nervous.

And he said, you know, me and my girlfriend are going to get married. Well, obviously I know that. And I was like, yeah. And he said, we've decided that we would like for you to do the ceremony. I kind of thought that's the way it was. So my heart kind of sank because in my default mode. That's terrible. I hope Cole doesn't listen to this. Let me finish the sentence. Yeah.

My heart fell because the shy self kid thought, oh, no, don't screw this up. No, I thought, now I have a responsibility that is an honor, and I love these two people. In fact, what I said was in the moment, I said,

I really believe that you and her belong together and God will build something. And I used a profound phrase. Stay tuned. I used a profound phrase saying, God's going to build this and I want to be a part of it because I was thinking,

This kind of makes you in from the start because, you know, we're going to have to sit down and discuss this, which I did say because in a weird comment, my response was, oh, is she there with you? And he was like, no. And I said, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to need to hear that from her. This is her wedding. Yeah, because he and he was kind of quizzing me like, well, why? And I was like, well, because if this goes bad.

I want her to sanction it verbally in front of me because I'm going to say you could do better in having somebody do your wedding. I think it's a huge honor because we don't know her and her family as much as say we did Brighton because Brighton grew up with Reed.

So this has already been feeling a little bit different, you know. So for Emmalyn and Cole to make this decision together to include our family in her wedding in such a profound way, I think it's a huge honor. So I'm excited about it. I was thinking we would just be a guest and come in.

spiffily dressed, you know, and now we have a responsibility. She says that she pats him on the knee. I'm just glad that he didn't tell Cole what he told Lily and Austin when they asked him, have you talked to Al? That was his first reaction to them. Well, I said you could do better. No, and I disagree with that. You'll do great. And I guess you're right, Jace. That is the theme for today. We're talking about marriage. I'm so glad you told that story.

because we have a great love story coming up, which is also a theme of you being on the podcast, Missy. We've had some guests every time you're on. Well, she brought friends. She brought friends. We're going to take a break. When we come back on the other side, we'll introduce our guests.

I'm super excited about one of our new partners because this is a very special group to me. It's One Kingdom, which is the global gospel ministry of our church, the White Spirit Road Church. I serve on their board, just to let you know. But we have been doing mission work and disaster relief for many, many years.

It's a little bit unique and different in that we always try to work through a local church. No one knows a country better than the people that live there and want to share the gospel with people. And also, when relief is done, we want people to not just have physical relief, but we want them to have an avenue to the gospel because that's what saves you forever. So we're super excited to have these guys along with us. I know all of us have been affected, Zach, when you guys had the big disaster.

One Kingdom Relief was one of the first groups that helped you guys. Not just one of the first groups. They're still here. So I think they put in about $400,000 into one of the neighborhoods here that got destroyed. And Jace, you and Missy got the blessing. I know Karina, the reason you guys found her was a connection through One Kingdom as well. It was. We've done various projects through the years. So I'm really thankful for that.

the involvement, and what they do to make the world better.

shine like Jesus. And that's what One Kingdom is all about. Share Jesus, speak Jesus, show Jesus. And they've always wanted to be able to speak gospel to every man and woman in every nation and every language. We're talking about YouTube, podcasts, social media. Even what we're doing on the Unashamed podcast has an impact. We gather around a table. We fed people fish down on the river. For you, this may be an opportunity for you to reach people around the world

You can go to onekingdom.org to donate today. 100% of the donations go to actual work and not overhead, which to me is our greatest claim. That's onekingdom.org.

Welcome to the blunt talk of... Unashamed. I figured since you did the podcast before, you might have warned your husband. I said to Cubby this morning, this is fun. You are going to love this. It's going to be fun. Well, it was so good because that completely related to Rebecca being the oldest and trying to...

Handles. Yeah, exactly. Welcome to the Unashamed podcast. I see we're rolling. We are super excited to have Rebecca St. James, Cubby Fink. Welcome to Unashamed. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us. And you are married, even though the names are weird. Good point. I just want to say that. The names don't line up, but yes, we are married. Legally married. And my license does say Rebecca Fink. That was a thing for me. It does not say St. James.

Yes. It never has. It never has. That's true. So, Rebecca, you've been on the podcast before, last time with your brothers. Loved it. It was so fun. Yeah, we had done a screening, I think, of the movie. Unsung Hero. Unsung Hero, which was so amazing. We haven't had a chance to talk to you since it came out, and I'm so glad it did well. And I knew it would. It's just, as we talked about when you were on the podcast last time, Rebecca, it was

I think it resonated so strongly with us because we also had the biopic about our family that was unafraid to talk about difficulty. And so I just think we had a bond. Oh, there's no doubt. We became friends over that whole encounter. We sure did. Yeah. So it's like we're having this. Nancy and I hung out in town. Like, yeah, we get together. Yes, we've shared our souls together. We have. We have.

bonded we've gone to the deep places so I want to say something weird for Al you know says something profound bring the weird that's called the unashamed way what do you just say I feel like I need to say this at some point in our relationship I want to borrow I want to borrow that hat

Because it just, it looks like the ultimate, I see myself sitting on a creek bank catching crappie in that hat. I love it. Okay. We can do that. I think we're friends enough that we can do that. What did you call it, Missy? A female Indiana Jones. For those of you watching, you'll be able to see it. So we brought in Missy and Lisa because we wanted to gussy up the place for y'all as well.

Normally this is like a ratty room where men hang out. Testosterone rings. Exactly. Today we brought Miss Enly's in as well because we wanted you to have a good experience. Thank you. And you're here, of course, to talk a little bit about your book called Lasting Ever. And just right off the bat, Jason and I both read it this weekend, and it is so good. Thank you. I mean, I could not wait. I was telling Lisa this morning,

Because I read a lot of books for the podcast. Yeah, I'm sure. But one thing you guys did so well with the book was that you –

I found myself taking copious notes from the last third of the book because you built so well into sort of the tension of everything in your lives and how you did it. But it's just very, very well done. So job well done. I can't wait to talk about it today as well as whatever else you guys have going on because I know there's a lot. Cubby, I feel like – so you're a California guy, right?

And yet now you're in Tennessee. And so reading the book, I watched that transition as well. And you talk about a little bit in the book. So I'd love to hear that more from you. Just being a California kid, you know, riding surf or surf. I don't even know how to say it. Riding surfboards. Surfing. Surfing through waves. With water with us, we only take things out of it. We never get it on top of it. Right.

Well, that's what I love. Al, what he tried to say is because I thought, okay, we got a guy from California. He's living in Nashville. He married a woman from Australia. I said, I'm pretty sure that this book on marriage is going to be about having a communication problem.

And we've worked through some stuff in communication. We work on that, as in every marriage, I feel like. So do you feel like, Cubby, that you're a southerner now, that you've been there a bit? Or how does that work? I mean, maybe a...

lovingly adopted southerner i think i think there's uh there's some redneck under this long hair there we go yeah there definitely has always been kind of the fantasies of the south for me growing up on the west coast i mean i you know the the huckleberry fin chasing fireflies and the tall grass and the cricks and the rope swings and things like that there was always kind of a

a fantastic element about the South in my mind. And, and so, and even growing up going to Disneyland, my favorite place in the park was always Tom Sawyer's Island. So it was just a lot about the South that really resonated with, with something in my DNA. And, um, and I was born in Colorado, so experienced the outdoors from an early age and all my uncles and cousins hunt and I hunt now too. But, uh, yeah, growing up,

Growing up on the West Coast, I was always horrified by the thought of being landlocked and that far away from the ocean. But since transitioning here, I've absolutely fallen in love with it. I mean, it's been and I think there's, you know, because of the sense of calling, because of the Lord's leading, bringing us here pretty miraculously is.

That kind of transcends any desire to be near the beach, just sensing a rooted sense of calling in the place that we're at right now. Well, probably more familiar to you is you are accompanied by a lot more Californians.

around you in Nashville. There are so many moving into that area. So it's not truly 100% Southern anymore. But talking about that Tom Sawyer Island, I saw your backyard. You're doing a pretty good job making one of those.

We're trying. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. We have a little pond back there. And thankfully the people that built this house had three kids and they wanted to make a backyard paradise. So there's a little bitty Island on this pond and we're just water people. I mean, me, me growing up near the beach in Australia and then Cubby growing up near the beach in California, something calls to us about water. So he, the first time I brought him back to Tennessee, actually when we were dating, he

We did the rope swing thing. We swung on a rope swing into a river and I think he was just captivated. And you saw five flies that trip too, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It's kind of magical. It is. I think we take it for granted living in the South, but it is really special if you haven't.

Well, when you're a true Southerner, you have to build large glass windows so you can enjoy all of that from inside. Yes. To keep yourself safe and cool. Well, to that point, I would like to point out the elephant in the room for anyone watching. I'm absolutely dripping sweat right now.

I have not adjusted to the humidity. I went for a run this morning. And I finished probably an hour ago, and I'm still just sweating profusely. That's so good. They probably can't even see it from there. Well, and we say here in Louisiana, when you're outside, everything outside wants to hurt you.

And so you just have to figure out a way to wall off the bugs and the things. And still enjoy it. And still enjoy it. Yeah. I'm glad you're saying that. It's making me feel better about Missy choosing to marry me. She wanted the adventure, but without the bugs. Exactly. And I'm like, hey, this is part of it. Not for me. It's not. It's called adventure. Nope. And she's like, windows. That's right. Windows and screens. That's right. Out there.

I don't mind bugs, and I don't mind varmints. I just trapped three raccoons last week at our house in Gulf Shores. Wow.

Wow. And she did it on her own. I did. God did not help. She was like, I'm going to do this. She got the trap. She said it every night. And she trapped three different raccoons. Because they were coming in in the doggy door. In the cat door. In the cat door. And they were eating all the cat food. Do you call it a catty door? Yeah, cat door. Well, no, I went catty. Only if you're being catty.

I want to ask a question that I feel like is totally probably fine to ask here, but what do you do with those raccoons? I mean, on the show. That's a great question. You ate some pretty crazy stuff. I don't think you eat raccoons. She's fixing to give you the most yuppie answer ever. Which y'all will appreciate, probably. We weren't in Louisiana and we weren't in the country. We're actually in Gulf Shores.

Alabama. Alabama. And we are in the city limits. Okay.

Okay. So options are limited. You have to take those down to about six miles down the road. There's a preserve. And you release them into the preserve. And you hope they do not find their way back that six miles to your house. She left out the part where people line the streets and they clap and they shed a tear. I think we would be investing in a silencer. Yeah.

I have to say, it went against my roots and my upbringing. But it was great because we hear now they've started a business down the preserve because they had just turned into takers, not givers. And we wanted those raccoons back doing what God made them to do, which is hunting on their own. They were just eating their captain. Exactly. Well, to get back to the book, I thought...

Nice segue. No, this is relatable to what we're talking about. Because I was like, I think we met once, Cubby, but it was like in passing at something. Was it at the premiere, maybe? I don't know.

I think it was. I think so. Yeah. But we got to know Rebecca really well when they came, we hung out and, and we just kind of bonded. I bonded with your brothers and we have the most weird texts that go back and forth that I think are really fun and funny. So I'm really glad we're friends. Oh,

Oh, it's just, it makes me laugh every time. But when I read the part, I was like, this guy's from California. But then you were nicknamed Cubby because based on your hair, I believe it was your dad said you look like a bear cub. Yeah.

And I thought when I read that in the book, I thought me and this guy are going to get along. They literally thought he was a bear cub. Well, did you not think what I thought? Because Cubby's dad nicknames everybody and our dad does the same thing. There are people that have lifelong nicknames just like you.

from his nicknaming ability. They're usually not flattering, but... Well, I was just going to say that. One caveat. Ours is more kind of a negative. I mean, some of the nicknames that he calls... Body style. It's basically body style. He's like, oh, one eye there. He's got a patch on his eye, and he's like, start calling him water. Your worst physical attribute will be your new nickname. So you remember when he came up with thick legs, which probably...

probably wouldn't be a problem, but it was a woman. It was a girl. I was like, Phil, you can't do that. And that one actually stuck? Well, on the inside. Only with him. It bothered everyone but him because my dad feels like, well, what are you getting your feelings hurt? You have thick legs.

So summertime is here. And for Lisa and I down here at the Southern Lair, that means the grandkids are coming. We're always looking for activities and things we can do with them. One of the things we love to do is read books. My grandkids love books and they specifically love Brave books.

They help parents raise strong families by teaching biblical values through powerful, faith-filled stories. Each month, Brave sends out a new book that teaches lessons like courage, forgiveness, or standing firm in your faith. And Jace, you know very well one of the famous Brave authors. I do, my lovely wife. And I have something better than a Brave book.

I have a complete set in my hands. Ooh. Ten books in my hands. You can buy a set. I mean, we're talking Mouse of the Sea, Ice Heist, Deep Within Doom's Dome. Dear Val or Al also. Jeff and Jessica. Yeah, our brother and sister-in-law also have one on adoption. When you subscribe, you not only get a new book each month, you'll also get access to Brave Plus.

which is their new streaming platform is packed with safe, uplifting shows like Strawberry Shortcake, Bob the Builder, and Iggy and Mr. Kirk with Kirk Cameron. So while the world is trying to confuse you and distract you, Brave helps families stay grounded and stay together. Head to bravebooks.com slash unashamed. Use the code unashamed to get Missy's book, Because You're My Family, and Jeff and Jessica's book, Dear Valor, for free.

That's bravebooks.com slash unashamed. Raise them with truth. Raise them brave. And it is defense. He doesn't care what you call him either. So it's just like, hey, we're all being honest here. But it's been an awkward thing. I really think I'm the only one that I don't have a nickname.

You're just Al's woman. Yeah, I'm just Al's woman. We're all the women. That is the nickname. That is true. And it is derogatory. Missy actually teared up because his life has gotten difficult for them. For some reason, he just became so enamored with Missy. And, like, she became his favorite there for a while. Aww.

She's like, well, you tell that. You do it better than me. I don't know what you're talking about. No, when you said, he used to call me Jace's woman. You had a little stair step of years of how it escalated to him finally calling you Missy. Oh, well, I think I was surprised when he actually said my name out loud because I'm not sure he's ever called me anything before. Anything...

complimentary before, you know, either Jace's woman or, oh, yeah, your woman who doesn't cook or whatever. But now it's like he only said it once. Tell the syrupy part when he said it. I remember. Oh, I can't believe this. You came home and you got all teary eyed. And I thought, OK, I need to pay careful attention to whatever she's fixed to say because I could tell she was getting teary eyed. She's like your dad.

said my name and followed it with, I love you. Oh, yes. Yeah, he only did that. He did that once. So there was the two things that had never happened. He called me by name, which, I mean, you see the spiritual application

Yeah, that's true. He called me by name and he told me I love him. Well, I've been telling him I love him because we've never had that kind of relationship before, you know, but because he's just been, it's a different, it's a different feel right now and has been the last few weeks. Yes. And he's very patient and kind and appreciative and,

And so when he sees me, he's just, he comes towards me because he knows I'm probably bringing him some food. Yeah. I think that was started off the draw. He likes the food. The good food. But I've just been telling him like getting past that awkwardness because I want him to know I love him. And so I've been telling him that. And one time he looked up, he said, Missy, and I turned around, he said, I love you too. I was like, okay. See,

That's incredible. I love that. So the roughest of humans chiseled by the grace of God one day may say, you never know. It was a beautiful story, which is what made me, you know, want to relate that to your book. I thought you did the book cleverly, but like unusual because it's,

It's like a love story, y'all's love story. And you were very vulnerable and shared all your high points, low points along the way. And it's not like most people that have a marriage book. It's like, do these 10 things. It's not like that. It's just real and raw, and all relationships are different. But you see that kind of God story, right?

within our story. Somewhere within the book, you guys quoted, one of you quoted Revelation 12, 11, with that idea of the overcoming of evil, you know, by the word of our testimony, which is God's story. And I love it. I think it was you that said, this is not our story. It's God's story lived out through us. And I want to get into that because I feel like it's a ministry book. That's going to help a lot of people. And it's really interesting because you're both,

very obvious were called and anointed by God early, you know, fairly early in your lives. But then there was such a journey before you found each other. And that's what I found fascinating, you know, that journey to get there. And then now you guys in this season are getting to work together and even doing this book. So just tell us a little bit just on the arch of that. I mean, you know, what it's been like to have individual careers, you know,

And and the struggles you both talk about in those careers, but then now being in a place where God's using you to do some things together, including this book, which is part of that process. What's that been like? Yeah, it's been really, really sweet. And I think we were very intentional about wanting it to be just our story. I love that scripture in Revelation. We overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.

And we need each other's stories and we need to be encouraged by each other's stories. And I think the more authentic we can be, the more people relate to it and go, oh, that's me too. I've been through that. And, you know, we talk about miscarriage in the book. We talk about waiting seasons. We talk about job loss, you know. Yeah, for me, secondary infertility and just burnout, burnout and just so many different things that we've been through.

And just trying to hear the voice of God in seasons where you just feel confused. There's so much, I think, that we had journeyed through separately. And then I was in my early 30s. He was in his late 20s when we met in L.A. And then to meet each other and feel like, oh, wow, you are this other soul that feels like the other person.

part or the match of my soul. We're so different in personality. I'm much more extroverted. He's much more introverted. He's calmer. I'm excitable, you know, just all of that. But, and I'm very verbal. I like to verbally process. A dream, you know, time in the car is just kind of quietly being together. And I just want to be chatting the whole time. So we're real different, but the same heart, the same values, the same commitment to God, the same

picture of what family life, what we want that to look like, the same priorities. And it was just amazing to have journeyed through so much and then meet this person, you know, for me on the other side of the world from where I was born and then the other side of the country from where I'd lived and to meet this person that matches in heart. Like I'm just, I sit in this time in my life and just feel so thankful. I see God's grace. I see the gift that our relationship, that our family is, and I'm just kind of amazed. So we hope that our story just

feels hopeful to people in a time where I think people are discouraged either spiritually or relationally or in marriage or in family life. And we hope it's kind of wind in people's sails, really. I think that was a part of our intent. What would you say? Yeah, I mean, I do think that it is the pain of life that is the unifying factor. It's the thing that we all experience. It's the thing that we're promised. We're not promised perfect, perfect lives. Even as Christians, we're not

promised happiness. What we are promised is that we're going to walk through pain. But the beautiful thing is that in that pain, we get a unique experience.

perspective and understanding of the love of the father. Um, cause it's in those moments of desperation and calling out and, and the way he meets us so intimately is really beautiful and the way he shapes us and molds us through our pain. And, and so even, you know, looking at the stories of our lives and trying to figure out which of those stories we're going to include in this book, it was very important for us to, to share, you know, a lot of the highs and a lot of the good stuff, but, but really dive in on the hard stuff. And I think that's the stuff that people are going to be able to identify with and,

and realize, you know, we're people too, walking through pain, just like everybody else. And we chose to stick to God in the midst of that pain. And we've seen the beauty of, of, you know, growth and healing on the other side of that pain and wanted to share about that. And,

And just kind of based on the uniqueness of our careers, you know, there was a lot of beautiful preparation that we saw in the process of reflection. Just unique points of connection along our journeys that we never really saw before and different ways that God was preparing us for each other without us being aware of, you know, one another. And so it was fun to kind of discover those little Easter eggs along the way as we dove into our stories and, yeah.

And even based, you know, she was when we met, she was sort of phasing out of her career, you know, desperately just wanted to be a wife and mom, which was the dream of her life for so long. And, you know, we meet and it's very clear early on that this is probably going somewhere special. And that was kind of right at the beginning of my career with music. And just looking at the potential trajectory of that, it was a little bit nerve wracking for me. It's like,

you're trying to get off the road and I'm about to get on the road. But even in that, I shared my concerns about that. She said, no, I'm excited. I'm excited to be with you and support you. And even the way that she had an understanding of the road, she had an understanding of living on the bus and living out of a suitcase for years on end. And so it's not like she had to learn that she already knew it, but she was able to enter that world in a supportive role as opposed to a role that was carrying all the weight. So

Just the way that worked just very seamlessly and beautifully was pretty remarkable. And I wasn't wowed by the glam moments either or like looking for that or...

you know, there was just this sense of understanding of the highs and the lows of a profile life, like a life that to most of the world looks like you're living the dream. It's just amazing. It's what everybody wants. But yet there's challenges and loneliness to that that I understood for him. And so we were able to even bond over that. Yes, it's amazing and it's a privilege and it's beautiful and such an adventure. But there's also challenges that I got for him. And so we were able to

relate on that level and again just such a god thing that we could like wow yeah yeah oh it's there was so much in y'all's book that uh was relatable just of our own marriage and experience and that was one of them i remember getting asked by somebody in the media because i have a bad habit of saying whatever comes to mind and i

We love it. We love it. They said, how's it? The question was, how does it feel to be famous? You know, what's it like? And I said, pretty lonely. And it was just like, they were looking at me like I had just dropped a bull rattlesnake in the middle of the interview. But because even though you're, you know, you may be in front of thousands of people, that little wall there.

I mean, I'm moving on to the next gig. It's not like I was with a few thousand people, but nothing really happened there. So that's why your core circle and, uh,

It's really so valuable. Our first year of marriage, we had the burnout experience in the first year. Wow, you guys. Yeah. Not because of fame, but for a different reason. For a different reason. And it was a godly reason, but still it really meant a lot to me with that one line in there about, you know, we're going to do this together. Because that's what at the end of our first year of marriage,

We were basically, I started sharing Jesus with my friends when they started coming to the Lord and I was immature. So I thought, not only are we going to save them, I'm going to drag them if they don't, you know, start going quickly enough. And so basically it just led to hundreds of people coming to the Lord, but I was never there. And Missy was like, well, this is great. But not what I signed up for in the relationship.

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And I think that was the interesting thing about the book, Jason. Jason and Missy and Lisa and I have two completely different experiences in our marriages. And yet I think we both related, I could say, Jason and I mentioned this to each other, to your book so well. And yet we're so different, which is why I think the book is going to be so powerful as a ministry book. Because Lisa and I relate more to the difficulties you guys went through because that's what happened to us.

And then out of this amazing grace walk to come out. So when you guys talk in the book about you were on an Alaskan cruise and

which we can relate to because we worked a couple of those ourselves, kind of like you guys did. And when you talk about both of you having a moment there, and I thought it was interesting, Cubby, because you used the word running as a word from the Lord in that situation. And it seemed to apply to both of you because you both had realized something in that moment. And there's something, I want to read the quotes because they were so powerful in the book. One of them was from you, Rebecca. It said, we can't be fully loved without being fully known.

which I thought was a really powerful point. Then you went into that. And then Cubby, you said this, which really struck a nerve with me. You were talking about making the move to Nashville and you said, but that's where I really think faith lives, right there at the corner of risky and right.

And then you talked about risky faith and what it means to take those moves. So just, can you talk a little bit, is this right there at the, to me, it's the pinnacle point of the book where now it puts you where you are today and the new season you're in, what that was like to, to struggle to that point and then to realize something, but then to take risks to where you are today. What, what was that like to be able to do that? Yeah. I mean,

That moment on the cruise was a massive turning point in our lives, and we've just seen a beautiful trajectory since then. But preceding that was what we refer to in the book as our winter season. It was a four or five year period of a lot of hurt and pain and confusion. It was kind of kicked off by a pretty traumatic situation.

parting ways with the band that I was in, something that we didn't see coming and kind of threw us into this tailspin. And we were simultaneously trying to get pregnant and wasn't happening, walked through a couple of miscarriages, which was painful. My mom was dying. There was just everywhere we looked, there was just pain and hurt and confusion. But probably the

The most painful factor of that season for me personally was the silence that I experienced from the Lord. It was unique to that season. Every other season of my life, God has been exponentially clear. I mean, as close to an audible voice of God

of God that you can experience at these major turning points. And suddenly it was at the biggest turning point in my life and desperately crying out for direction and asking the Lord for just something to hang on to and, and, you know, where to even put the next foot as I'm taking steps. And it was just, I was just met with silence. And, and it was, it was the moment where I,

I really had to live by faith probably for the first time in my faith journey. I mean, I had been for a Christian, I mean, literally grew up in a Christian home, but serious about Jesus for probably 15 years at that point. But because of this very connected, you know, relationship with the Holy Spirit and being able to hear his voice, it wasn't really living by faith. It was obedience. It was, you know, following the, you know, the calling and the push of the Lord. But

But it wasn't really faith. It was faith in the moment that there was silence because then I had to say, okay, what do I really believe? Do I believe the years of...

of what I thought I believed? Do I believe that the scripture is telling me the truth? Do I believe, you know, X, Y, and Z as it relates to my faith? And ultimately made the decision not to deconstruct and throw in the baby with the bathwater because, throw out the baby with the bathwater because of this pain. It was a decision to continue to lean in, continue to trust that God is good despite the pain and walk through, you know, four or five years of silence, which was hard, but

All I could do was live out what I knew to be true prior to the silence, continue to the trust that God was good and try to put one foot in front of the other and explored a lot of different things and didn't really know what I was going to do next. I just looked back to the things that resonated with my soul prior to this upheaval and life circumstances and started just gently kind of putting my hand to things and trying to figure out, okay, does this make sense? Does that make sense? And

And in that exploration process, it culminated in that moment on the cruise where I felt like God just said, you're running. And ultimately, when I sat with it, it didn't make sense at first. But when I sat with that word and reflected on it, I realized, yeah, I'm running from the thing that God has created me to do. There was a big part of me in that winter season that just wanted something that made sense, something practical, something where A plus B equals C. But

the creative world, A plus B never equals C. And, and, um, and I think there was, you know, some hurt and pain associated with, with what I'd walked through that I just wanted something practical that made sense. But in that, you know, pursuit of the practical, I was running from, from the creative path that he was calling me to. And, and,

and realized that I needed to turn back to, you know, the creative space and the film and the music and things like that. And as soon as I kind of let that guard down and realized, okay, Lord, I have been running. I want to turn back. It was just flooded with his voice again. I just felt him speaking. I felt the inspiration. I felt direction. And it was just,

It was revolutionary. It was pretty remarkable. And little did I know God was doing an incredible work in the heart of Rebecca over the course of the same week on the boat. And it wasn't until after getting off the boat and debriefing what had transpired over the previous four or five days that we realized, wow, God has been

really moving the last few days and I'll let her share her side of the story. Yeah. I mean, I think what, what encourages me so much about that moment in time is how much God can do in such a short amount of time. I think most times in our lives, progress and healing, um,

And change, great change takes time. It's just a process. It's just takes longer than what we think. We've got to be patient in that. And there's times in our lives where he just changes us instantaneously, whether it's becoming a Christian or, you know, for many people.

leaving an addiction and God delivers, you know. But for us, that moment was so transformative and probably the most transformative time I've ever experienced in my relationship with Jesus. And that's being a Christian for decades, you know. But I'm on stage. I was singing on that cruise. The whole Small Bone Clan was there. We were in this season of infertility and pain and burnout and job loss and all the things. And

I felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to just share that on stage in between worship songs and just say, this is where we're at right now. And we're just clinging to the goodness of God and what we know about him, even in this really hard, not wrapped up with a bow season, like nothing was wrapped up. And I think generally I like to share those stories of victory, like God's done this and this is the breakthrough. And this is how we're on the other side of that. And we were not on the other side of it, guys. Like we were in it.

And I just felt him saying, hey, just trust me. I want you to just share from that place. And I did. I'm crying on stage. I almost never cry on stage. The audience was crying. It was kind of not a dry eye in the room. Like the Holy Spirit was so profoundly...

moving I just get goosebumps thinking about it now I say you just gave me chills when you said I just at the moment I just shared everything to a bunch of strangers yeah it's amazing and I hadn't been singing at that point I was you know retired and kind of burned out and had vocal problems and all of it so it was vulnerable for me to even sing let alone be that vulnerable in in between songs but it was so transformative it was like like while I'm on stage I'm

Feeling the winter fall away for me, like a spring begin, a sunrise. And I'm like dominoes. It's almost like you just see your past differently. You see your future differently. It was almost like this domino effect that was happening in my heart while I'm on stage. And I walked off and I said to my brother who was backstage, I thank God just...

moved me back into ministry. I think he just did this crazy change in my life. Like I was not looking for it. I had hung up that hat, that talking about hats, that hat was done like for the rest of my life. I was done.

And then he just, you know, changed me. And so for both of us to be going through that separately and then talk about it later and go, what, you too? And we might be moving to Nashville and we weren't looking for any of it. Yeah. Like wild. So we just feel thankful. I don't know if it was, if y'all thought about this, but when I was reading it, I thought, you know, the last guy that was running from God on a boat.

wound up in the belly of a fish for three days. So it could have turned out worse for you guys. At least you just came to your moment without having to go through a whale's mouth. I'm so glad y'all shared that because one of the worst experiences of my life was the one time I agreed to go on a cruise. It was not fun. It was the bottom of the barrel.

of life and I said Lord if you will get me off this boat it's just so crazy if you want to hit rock bottom go on a cruise and I don't mind saying that

Our situation. So it was just throwing up? Were you just living in the toilet? No, it was sick. You did have an ear problem. I did get sick. But the problem was somebody had the idea. There was the height of Duck Dynasty. It was like the first season. Oh, yes. And then you were trapped. And they said, oh, let's do this. Let's have a cruise with the Duck Dynasty people.

That somebody was me. So I'm the one who talked. I was contacted by the crews. We just said the cry part out loud. So here's all you need to know about that. I know we can laugh now. We were paid very well. We can laugh about it now. Oh, we were. We were. And look, I'll go on record saying this. When they said, let's do this again, and they offered me. That's when we all said no. And an obscene amount of money. And I was like, this is not a negotiation tactic. Yeah.

I don't care if it's seven figures. I ain't getting on another boat. But I'll say what happened was people were excited. The show had come out. Well, the thing sold out in four or five minutes. But just think about this. No way. What kind of person would buy a ticket to that in four or five minutes? The crazy fans. Yeah.

So we're now on a ship. How many people were there? 3,000. 3,000 people. And we can't get off. And you can't go anywhere. They crazy loved the show. They were probably the sweetest people.

They were really awesome. It was just, you know, that dynasty was insane during that time. And look, you'll know this. We wound up baptizing 300 people on the ship. It's the first time there's been intentional baptism on a Carnival cruise. In the pool. Because usually they just fall in drunk. But yeah, we were actually baptizing them on purpose.

No, I told my dad, I said, I think this is the first time we actually baptized a drunk person. Yeah, exactly. But I couldn't talk him out of it. But what I was going to say, I felt. You guys, you're amazing.

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It felt so combative. I felt like it was spiritual warfare. And, you know, when I get put in a corner and I just wanted to, because I'm real claustrophobic anyway. It's one of my weaknesses. I thought, we got to come out firing. And Phil was like, I'm with you. But Phil felt the same way. He's like, we're trapped. We're trapped. Well, it's the only way I could get Dad to do it. Dad was the last holdout. And he said, I'm not getting on a boat where I can't get off with 3,000 Dynasty fans. I said, Dad.

you get to preach the gospel every day and they can't get off the boat. He went, I like the sound of that. Yeah. And that aspect, but it was so weird that you said that. Cause I just now, uh, if you ever see me on a boat, call nine one, one that I can't get off of. If I'm fishing when my buddy's okay. But if I'm trapped for a week, no, I'm out.

Yeah. So I thought that was funny. Well, I wanted to say this before, cause I know we don't have much time. I think what, what I thought was the most clever part of this, and I'd like to hear how this happened.

Because you took the very thing that most people who are not believers, which is why is there suffering in the world? And it became a platform. I think your five points, if I can remember off the top of my head, was in that suffering, we're seen, we're heard, we're held, we're known, and we're loved. You nailed it, Jay. I wrote it down. Off the top of my head. You really read the book.

Yeah, I read the book. We feel blessed by that. Well, I read it my free time, which was between 11 and 1.30 a.m. I'm a fast reader. But I really thought that was so awesome because there's a reason half of marriages end in divorce because you think, oh, this is rainbows and rainbows.

Everything is going to be great, and in reality there is suffering, but God does his best work in that. I mean, think of the cross here. We don't have a God who's oblivious to it. He entered the world of suffering. And so I really think that was clever, and I think that's why this book needs to be read. So I was just wondering how that little mantra of the book

I mean, were y'all driving down the road saying... Yeah, because you really built it well, is what he's saying. It was a nice stair step into the end of the book. That seems like the thesis to me, and I'm not very smart, but it just really was profound to me. I thought, now this is a good idea. Because it really is the mysterious part of God's love

For us. And I was so excited about it because I just preached Sunday. And look, the name of my sermon, I didn't even know y'all were coming on two days later.

The name of my sermon was When a Plan Comes Together, but then it was like dot, dot, dot. The Bible is about God getting his family back in Jesus. And so I mirrored how much is about family as it relates to God's family, him getting his family back. And kind of Ephesians 5, where it talks about husbands and wives, but at the end he's like, this is a mystery, but I'm talking about you,

And Christ, the church being married to Christ. Yeah. And it made me think that our offspring in that marriage are people that are born again.

You know, we're married to Jesus. And what is the result of the church and Jesus being married? More people that are born again in Jesus. It's a beautiful picture, you know, and I think y'all captured that well. So what was the thought process? Because I started preaching a sermon. I was going to say, we were about to get that sermon for one more time. We came close. I think what comes to mind when you're talking about all those different points is just the

And we were talking about this in small group like two nights ago, like how, you know, I had somebody tell me before we got married, it was actually a movie that I was filming and it was the mentor role in, in that movie was wrote it into the script event, but he was just saying that marriage gets better. If you, if you are in a Christian marriage and you're committed to it and you're committed to each other,

it just gets better and better and sweeter and sweeter. And there's a lot of people that miss out on the great by bailing when it gets hard. And what I feel like we're seeing in our journey now, 14 years in, we just celebrated 14 years a few weeks ago, was we just have had these moments of going, we see a sweetness in,

and a connection and a deepening love and a deepening trust that is happening because of the challenges. It's not in spite of the challenges, it's actually because of them. And it's the crying together, you know, in those broken moments when his mom dies and it's the, you know, him finding out that he's got to part ways with the band and, and the pain of that and sticking it out together in that and the miscarriages and the disappointments and the over and over again and the disheartened.

Being together in that and going to God together in that has created this just, I don't know, sense of gratefulness or richness in the relationship. And it's not that we're like, it's not that it's butterflies. And, you know, what did you say earlier, Jace? Rainbows and sunshine. Sunshine and butterflies all the time. There's still hard stuff and there's still conflict that we have to work through and hard conversations and things like that. That's a part of it.

But I don't know, there's a deep-seated trust that is there because we've seen each other, we've known each other, we've, you know, we've really pressed in. And the end result, which is that final number five, is the love that goes deeper. Seeing, known, heard, held, and loved each other.

And so I just feel thankful to be in this time now and have seen the beauty of God's way. And I think when we think about people just kind of closing the book,

We want them to say, God is good. Man, God is good. And man, he loves his kids. And we're a bit of a mess, all of us, all of us. But he loves his kids. And he's here and he's with us. And he's here and he's with me. And they relate it to their own lives. I think that's what we hope. What would you say? Yeah. I mean, the end tagline of our subtitle is being found by true love, which is...

a, you know, kind of alluding to the fact that we found true love and kind of the happily ever after love story. But probably the more profound truth in that statement is that we were found by the actual true love, found by the true love of God, which capital T, which is

I don't know, kind of set us on this journey of, okay, what are our core desires? What are the core desires that God created us with? And those desires are to be seen, to be heard, to be held, to be loved, to be known.

And I think we can experience those things here on earth and get a glimpse of God in the way that only he can provide those things perfectly. And I think the analogy that you're talking about, Jace, between Christ and the church, I mean, we experience Jesus through marriage because of that profound relationship of

of coming together, becoming one and, and meeting those core desires in the best way possible in our broken humanity, but trying to see, trying to hear, trying to know love. But the, at the end of the day, those core desires can only be met perfectly by the creator. So I think we can get a glimpse of them, but it's, it only deepens our understanding of the perfection of the way he can meet those needs. Yeah.

Amen. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Well, look, the book is amazing. Lasting Ever, which even the title, which you had just talked about, Happily Ever After, it's kind of you spin it on the other side. And I love the concept of lasting ever. I had 12 more questions I didn't get to. Which means we've got to have you back sometime later because, you know, Cubby teases early in there about some really traumatic stuff.

that you were both so vulnerable to talk about. Cubby, you were, and you were as well, Rebecca. So I want to have that conversation. Before you tell them how to get the book, I do have one idea that's silly. I just had a question when I read the book. Rebecca, have you ever introduced your husband by saying,

Here's my hubby, Cubby. I have joked about that in the show, I think. Sometimes in an interview, like, you know, from an audience member, they've kind of joked about it. But I feel like I have said that too, right? Did you sense an eye roll? Yes, definitely. So this is the way Jace thinks. This is the kind of thing he thinks about. I just had to know that. When we're in deep...

Bible discussion. These are the kind of things he brings out. What is the question going to be? I mean, a riveting question that I'm sure America is waiting to hear. Sorry, I apologize. I'll tell them how they get the book. Or you tell us. Before you do that, let me just say one thing is that I'm sure you've seen it with your own parents.

But it does just get better and better and better every year. We celebrated 40 this year. Well, in November, so we're almost to 41. But here's the thing is that, like you said a while ago, no matter what the trials are,

And no matter what you go through, you're still living heaven on earth whenever you have the two of you together with that true love. But then it's overseen by that true love of Jesus Christ. Yes. And so it's just going to get better. Oh, that's good. I said that exact line this morning to my wife, did I not? I said marriage is two people, God building something where you're living heaven on earth.

Which we didn't even get into. Even through struggles. It's just beautiful. And the building of the legacy, which you guys get into as well. So we want to have you back sometime. You guys are so much fun. We love y'all. We feel like we are the American small bones and you guys...

are the Australian Robertsons. I feel like there's a kindred spirit. I do feel that. It's there. Cubby, you fit right into this narrative. Welcome aboard, Cubby. I appreciate it. So check out the book, Lasting Ever, wherever you get your books. Get this book. It's going to be a blessing to you. It's a lot of really rich, good stuff that you're going to love. So thank y'all for coming on Unashamed.

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