Ep 1100 | Phil Robertson Believed in the Broken—Now They Carry His Gospel Torch
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed Podcast. I was wondering which one it was. If you're listening, I had to rephrase it because I got mixed up there for a second. Al and Jace are still not back with us yet, but they'll be back in the next episode. In the meantime, we brought in some dear friends. Mac, you've been on before. Yep. You brought your beautiful bride, Mary Whitney, Mac and Mary Owen. Yeah.

mentors of mine, mentors in the faith of me and Jill. Mary, good to have you here as well. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I feel like I'm on holy ground. Being back here and to celebrate Phil's life, it's a beautiful thing to get to be here all together with our family. Yeah, I love what you said, being back here. Of course, we're living in Colorado now, and

Everybody back here is talking about how hot it is. I said, well, it snowed at our house a foot and a half last week. They're 9,000 feet elevation, right? Right, 9,000 feet. And Phil would look at me and say, Owens, why would anybody want to live there? That's what I was thinking. And we got Paul Stevens, too, one of my other favorite guys in the world, mentors. Both of y'all are former elders of mine, so I sat under your eldership and leadership for many, many years. So, Paul, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, bud. Thank you.

I'm glad to be here. Yeah, so here's what we're going to do today. We're still in the week of just talking about Phil's life, what he meant to all of us. And so one of the things I want to do today, have you guys on, because y'all are kind of in the thick of it with Phil. I mean, at the peak of...

I would say his ministry, you guys were in the trenches. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So you're in for a treat. I'm telling you both, and all these stories intertwine, so we're going to talk a little bit. I want to hear both of y'all's, all y'all's stories today, and really, yeah,

Thinking about my own life, and I came into the church at White Street Road in 1996, 1995, actually, summer after 95, three camps you had. My parents, you know, obviously went to seminary there, and there's a whole lot of roots here. But I came back, and that started for me a trajectory in my life that, like, I didn't—I'm telling you, I was an insecure little boy.

projecting like I was a man, but I wasn't. And y'all may say it took a little longer to get out of that. I don't know. But being around you guys and being around Phil and just the DNA of the ministry at White Street Road was, I would say that I came into a renewal movement, a revival that was happening. So I want to talk about that if you guys are cool with that. Yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah.

Also, I thought it was interesting when we started, you guys were taking out your hearing aids too. Yeah. Well, that says a lot right there. Hey, no, really, for me, it's like if you sit next to – I sat right next to Phil in the duck blind. Yeah. Because I was the biscuit man, so he was closest to the food. But if you're sitting there, that means there's somebody on the other side of you, and usually that was some idiot that was –

and it was always in my ears. And so, you know, back then, nobody wore hearing protection. No. And so that's why none of us can hear anymore. All them shotguns. So Phil ended up going to my hearing aid doctor. Yeah.

and getting this one hearing aid. He wouldn't get two of them. He'd just get one. Yeah, he just needed it for one. Well, y'all both are talking about hearing aids and whistling, and I just thought that was funny because y'all were my elders, and now you're pulling out your hearing aids, you know. But we will blame Phil because you were one of the original duck men. You were in the original duck man videos. I remember there was an infamous scene of y'all spitting tobacco. Oh, that's right. And I, by the way, won that contest. If you don't believe it, go back on YouTube. You'll see that I won. Yeah.

Oh, so you had a spitting contest with him? Oh, it's like famous. Oh, that's funny. Because I did too. When I was running around with him, he worked for the park department or whatever it was, and we were riding around and we had a spitting contest.

Who won? Oh, I did. I beat him bad. But the thing about it was he said, well, I'm more of an accuracy guy. That's right. No, look, he's sitting there on the video, actually, and he has a shotgun shell that's already opened up. And he's like spitting in the shotgun shell. Accuracy. So he was an accuracy guy. He wasn't a distant guy. Well, then they did this slow motion. So now you had the tobacco spray. I mean, it was absolutely disgusting. It was. If we would have had Facebook at the time, it would have went viral.

but it was like a moment. It was really a moment in hunting history right there. Well, and Mary would say, please don't ever use that as your claim to fame, you know, that you won that contest. Mary, you didn't like that, did you? No, I couldn't even look at it. It was so gross. Yeah.

I love it. Well, okay, so here's what I want to do, because I was at an event recently, and I've sat under y'all's teaching and leadership, like really in most of my formative years of coming into my own faith. So I've heard a lot of these stories before, but sometimes you hear them in a new way, you know? And so I went to a...

I guess it was a men's retreat in Searcy, Arkansas. And you were there. I hadn't seen you. It was good. It was amazing. Yeah.

And you told your story, and I'd heard it before, but man, something was, not something, someone was moving in the room that day. And your story is so vulnerable. It's so raw, so powerful. And it definitely intersects with Phil. And I could feel just in the room that God started to move after you told your story.

I mean, change started to be broken. I mean, confession started to happen. Healing started to happen. It was pretty powerful. That was—it gives me chills just thinking about how that happened, when all that happened, when I finished, and how these men responded to that. Yeah. And it was some other leaders in other churches, too. There were some elders that were there that actually, if you remember, the guy that stood up was an elder and started talking. Oh. Oh, yeah. It changed everything in their whole church. Matter of fact, I saw later on where he was—

He was baptizing people and all that. Wow, because he had confessed something in that moment in front of probably 100 men or 80 men.

And now he was the elder of the church. And he was in his 70s. He said, I hadn't told anyone this. And something happened to me when I was eight years old. I've never talked about it until, I even told my wife. I said, but I'm going to tell you all something that, and he confessed something that had happened to him. And you know, when you said that, that should be a red flag for anybody. When somebody says the most holy words that I've ever heard is, I've never told anyone this. Yeah. Because you're fixing to embark on part of their journey that you've

you may be a catalyst to help them overcome that. And so, yeah, that's powerful words right there. So there was something that happened at White's Ferry Road, at our church, that what I have witnessed is,

when we were all together, was a movement of God that, like, we have all seen so many people come to Christ from the most broken places that you can ever imagine. And I think a lot of that started, something with your granddad, who was in the movie, The Blind. Your dad, sorry, your dad was in the movie, The Blind, out in Howard. Your brother played out in Howard in the movie, who gave Kay the job

So all of our stories intertwine here. So Phil comes to faith, I think, in 19—what was it? I think 74. 74-ish. So he's two years out. He goes—I think he teaches school at Ouachita Christian High School. First year of the head high school. You're a student. Yep.

So what happens from there? Okay, so, well, long story short, they asked me to leave West Monroe. They didn't want me there anymore. They kicked me out. I've been asked to leave places before, too. I mean, you know, I'm like, well, I'm a good guy. Why would you want me not to be here anymore? But anyway, long story short, then the football coach, I could play ball. Yeah.

And actually, I was on a podcast before, and I did this with Phil and them. So I could play ball, and they asked me to come over and start a football program with them. And I did, and that's where I met Phil, was on the football field for the first time. Was he your coach? Yeah, he was a coach. Yeah, he was actually a coach and a teacher.

Without a beard. Without a beard. Without a beard, yeah. So what's Phil like in this moment? I guess he's a few years older than you. Well, yeah, I think he's ended up being 12, 13 years older than I am. Okay.

But, I mean, he's young. He's a young guy. Yeah, he's young. So what are you thinking? Are you thinking this guy's cool? Well, I mean, I didn't really know what to think other than he looked like a good athlete. And I thought, well, okay, this guy may know what he's talking about. But he was a backs and ends coach, and I was a lineman. So...

But anyway, so he and I started talking to one another, and we realized that we had a lot more in common than we thought because, you know, we didn't know what to expect. Because I came in from a broken home and living in sin and doing the drinking and drugging and all the things, living with a girl at 16, doing all these things that you shouldn't be doing, but yet looking for something bigger than me and not knowing where it was. And then he and I got to talking about our background.

And it was like, okay, yeah. So we started relating to that. All right, so here's what I got here. This is IQ Sense, Chef IQ. Here's what they look like.

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Pretty brutal. It's brutal. And when did, tell the audience a little bit about like where were you at? Like when did your kind of journey, because mom and dad grew up in an abusive home. Yep. Okay. So my dad was a great man. He really was. But he had a drinking problem. He was an alcoholic.

And that turned into really bad because he started drinking a fifth a day, that kind of thing, and became abusive. You never knew. I mean, we're talking about, I don't know how far you want me to go in this, but I mean, he would get mad. He tried to kill my mom several times, shot holes through the front door.

with a shotgun trying to shoot her as her and her cousin ran off. And we had holes in the back door with a, from a pistol. Uh, there, there was all kinds of things like that. I've seen him shoot a man in the front yard. Uh, these are things that we just, it would seem to be not an everyday occurrence, but enough. It happened enough times to, to, um,

Anyway, it was abusive. And then toward the end there, he started turning on me and my sister because we were the only ones left, my younger sister. He started, you know, hitting us and things like that. But it was really bad. I mean, it was. And so when you come out of something like that, you start trying to figure out what life's all about.

because you don't know really what the difference is between right and wrong, to be honest with you. You're trying to figure these things out, what life's really about. And I knew I hated that life so bad. I mean, I hated it so much, but I didn't know what else to do. All I knew was to drink and drug and have sex and do all these things at such a young age. I mean, I'd already lived a whole life.

uh, most, more than most men have at that time. So at 14, I thought I was a man because my dad said when he died, I'd be a man. When he died at 14, um, he, my mom, uh, shot him and killed him while he slept because, and they ended up ruling it self-defense because they knew who he was. But so he, he was shot and killed. And then from then on out, I felt like I was a man because he said I would be. Yeah. I'm 14. Yeah.

But I'm living the life of a man. And really, I mean, I was working at horse ranches. I was working around and doing what I could, going to school. And like I said, just not having any direction at all ended up getting me kicked out of school. So how old were you when your mom shot your dad? 14. You're 14? I'm 14. And then you got kicked out of school. I got kicked out of school, yeah.

Probably when I was 15, 16. And then you go and you meet. I meet with Wayne Spruill, who was the head coach at West Monroe Junior High. We called it Junior High then. It's middle school now. But anyway, so he was the head coach, and he was going to go start a new football program in a high school called Washtar Christian. And he came to our home and asked if I would like to be a part of that.

and come play football. And actually, they would give me half tuition and get me a summer job. And actually, I worked working with the police department. Yeah. Well, that's where I met William Guyton, by the way. He was another man. You're bringing up a lot of names. I know Wayne Spruill. I know William Guyton. We go back a long way, Paul. We really do. I said they were starting Washtenaw Christian at this moment, right? Correct. Which your dad...

was involved in that, right? Yes, yes, he was. And Watchdog Christian started at the church, isn't that correct? Yeah, it did. The first high school was at White's Ferry Road. But to be honest with you, I think they never told me who sponsored me for half my tuition, but I think it was your dad. It probably was. I really do. I always thought it was him. Nobody said, but I knew he had contributed a bunch to it, and I felt like that it was your dad that helped paid –

for half of my schooling and I had a summer job to pay for the other half. That's amazing. He saw potential in you. He was like, man, we got to get that boy. You know, I don't know what they saw.

I didn't see it. It was pretty cool, because when you're doing that, you're going to school, and I'm working construction. I'm actually digging the footings for Ouachita Christian School. Is that right? That was the hottest summer of my life. Well, I appreciate that, man. Yeah, no problem. You've never got a chance to thank me for that. Let's say your work paid off there. I appreciate that. Yeah. But anyway, so it took me to the White's Fair Road Church, where the first high school was. Yeah.

And they were trying to start the football program. We actually practiced football out at Foresight Park. Yeah. Yeah, because we didn't have anywhere else to go. So that was, and that's where I met Phil. Was Phil the head coach? Uh-huh. Was he the head coach? No, Phil was the backs and ends coach. Okay. Yeah, Wayne Spruill was the head coach. Okay. And we had other guys out there like Larry Culberth and some other guys out there that was coaches and stuff like that. But so, like I said, Phil and I hit it off.

Pretty good. Probably more than the rest of them because I had the background. Yeah. And I don't know what Phil was thinking. I don't know what he was doing. None of us knew what he was doing. That's okay. That's true. But I don't know why he took up with me. Yeah. Hang on, man. No, hang on. I don't know why. I talked to Kay the other day. And Kay looked at me and she said, you know, Phil sure did love you. And I said, yeah.

Well, I loved him more than he'll ever know. And I don't know how many times I thanked him for taking up with me and just seeing something in me. Because what school teacher takes a kid and just brings him along? And I ended up staying at his house more than I did my own house at this time. And he was teaching me a lot.

It took him two, believe it or not, it took him two weeks to share the gospel with me. Which is kind of crazy. That was, but he's only been a Christian, what, two years? Maybe two years, year and a half, two years, something like that. So he was telling me about Jesus as we was driving down the road. And what's funny is one of the things that he did, we went by a bar that my daddy went to. And I actually had been in that bar as a kid, little kid. My dad would take me to these bars and

Set me up at the bar and I drink Coke and peanuts, you know? Yeah. And while he's down there drinking. And so we passed a bar one day and he goes, see that bar over there? And I said, oh yeah.

He said, you know, I don't know about them old boys. He said, they may not make it. And I said, well, if the same guy's in there, I know. And I'm like, okay. So I said, yeah, I know that bar. So we kept talking. He kept explaining to me about the gospel and what Jesus did about the death, burial, and resurrection. And then one day during fifth period,

I think I was actually supposed to be in another class, but they was outside. And so I snuck out and I was over there and I went out there to talk to him and I could take you to the very spot where he said, okay, here's what you do. And then he laid it out. You know, you believe this, you confess Jesus as Lord, you've repented your sins and you're baptized. And he said, son, it's up to you now, whatever you want to do. And he turned around and walked off. And I went, he got about from here to back. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

I said, "Come back, let's go." I said, "Let's go right now." He said, "All right, let's go." So we walked over into the church and that's where he baptized me, right there, there in fifth period at OCF. - And I think, were you the first person? - I was. - That Phil baptized? - First one, yeah. - Really? - I mean, the last podcast we had Si on, which y'all just left Si's podcast. - Right. - Everything okay, by the way? - I'm a little frightened a little bit now, it's good. - That's high octane, man. - He was on fire. - He's on fire.

But what's interesting is Cy had brought up that my mom had said, y'all have heard this story. All y'all have heard it. It told Bill Smith, who was all of our elder and mentor, if you can lead Phil to Christ, he'll lead thousands. And it turned out she was right. And you were the first one. First one. You were the first one. So I tell you, I knew enough havens.

And all I knew was I knew Mark 16, 15, 16, you know, going into the world and preach the gospel and baptize them. And if they don't, they'll be condemned. That's the way I said it, too. Something about handling snakes and that dude. Oh, that's North Carolina. It happens up in North Carolina. It was actually added to a later transcript of the Bible. Another discussion. So anyway, that's about all I knew. But I would go around telling everybody that. And they were like, I said, but I know a guy.

I can tell you the rest of the story. And so I was dragging these people to him. And I don't know how many people we ended up baptizing out of that deal. Just me until one day, about two years into this, you know. I'm at his house one Sunday afternoon. And, of course, it's 2 o'clock. He knew what field fishing was. It was nap time. So this kid was coming up from Alexandria. And he walks by and goes, Stephen, share the gospel with that boy.

And I'm like, well, wait a minute. So he walks off and just goes in there and goes to bed or go takes his nap. And I'm like, okay. And then, so I started and, but I hadn't looked back since. So, uh,

I've been telling people about Jesus ever since. And now you've baptized quite a few people. You've led quite a few people to Christ yourself. Yeah, a bunch. I don't know how many of them. Never kept up with it. Yeah. But it's just something that's part of the DNA. And then, so, 1974?

76. 76. So then you guys, you're pouring footers at OCS. Right. But you've probably done a few other things too, right? Oh, yeah. Are y'all dating at this point? What? No. We were married at that point. Yeah. 74 is when... No, it's 76. But we met in... When did we meet? We were married in 76, Mary. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's right. That's right.

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Let's go back to the 70s. I've seen a picture of y'all, by the way. Y'all were like you and your brother. And you guys were like, oh, gee, man, y'all had that big ass. It would just go like this. When I saw him the first time at our high school, he had just moved there. I'm looking down. I was sitting out in the hallway because I got in trouble for talking in class. Yeah. American history class. I'm sitting out there. All of a sudden I see this.

cool-looking guy walking down the hallway, and his hair was doing like this as he walked. As you're listening, the hair is bouncing. It was. It was. Like a beach ball in the head bouncing. And he walked by, and he said, hey, you know, that was our first meeting.

Well, I was in that hallway. And then, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, then I got very interested in him. And so I didn't see him again until Camp Chioka. He went to camp and I went. And on the last night of camp, he wanted to ask me out. That's what I heard from one of my friends. And he said, I want to ask her out, but will you ask her out for me? And so they came and asked me. I said, well, he's got to ask me himself.

And so he came and asked me, and we went on our first date, went with some other starlet. Oh, yeah? She was there, too. In the back of your dad's brown station wagon. Yes, yes. We had our first kiss in front of LP&L at that stoplight, and we've been together ever since. 47 years now. It's just 100% bliss, right? Oh, yes. No problems at all.

So actually, it would be 50 years if you counted our dating, too, that we've been together. Yeah. So tell a little bit about your early journey, because I think it'll... This all intersects, by the way. This is like that movie Crash, where there's all these different things, but they all intersected in the end. But talk about y'all's early story. Yeah. So our early story was I was...

rebellious to say the least. And, and, you know, I saw, this is what I saw in Christianity. I'm not saying that that's what it was, but I saw a system that was in place that no one could ever live up to. Yeah. And so I thought, why in the world would I want to be a part of this if failure is the end result anyway? And so I started doing, it was a, you know, early seventies. I was doing all kinds of drugs and stuff, you know,

My mission was to try them all, and that's what I did. And by...

I still can't believe her dad even let me come over to their house. If I would have been her dad, I would have got a hitman or something. Get this kid out of here. But he didn't. He saw something in me. The cool fast forward way, just a little bit of snippet was that the last 10 years of his life, we served as elders together in the church. And that was probably one of the

That's full circle moment. Yeah. And so, but anyway, my life was, um, full of just bad decisions. We got married because Mary got pregnant and, um, didn't realize that all it took was one time to do the deal. And she did. And so we got married, her dad officiated the service and, um,

So from that point on for the next 10 years, I lived a very rebellious life doing any kind of drug I could do. I was, uh, uh, shooting up all the time and all that stuff. Something I'm definitely not proud of, but I am proud of the fact that Jesus would take the biggest risk ever on me and trust me. And, um,

Tell about that day. Still can't believe it. Yeah, we were, Mary had already turned her life back over to Jesus. She said several years earlier that she was going to quit all the partying and stuff. I said, well, go ahead, not me, because this is how you marry me. I'll be this way to the day I die. That's just who I am.

And she went to church that morning. Our kids were, I think, four and seven. Our youngest daughter, Callie, came and stood beside the bed and looked at her mom. And she was looking at me but talking to her mom and said, how come Daddy doesn't do anything with us anymore? How come he doesn't go to church? And I pretended to be asleep, but I heard every word she said. And it was that moment God gave me this gift of clarity that

And the clear thinking that I had right then, that moment of sane thinking, was that I was killing everybody that I claimed to love. And so they left for church that morning. Can I? Yeah, please. So I was at church when I left. I just thought, I'm hanging on by a fingernail. I don't know if I can hang on any longer. Because you thought I was...

Yes, yes. There's a mental illness in the family. Yes, with my mother. And she thought, well, he's insane too. Yes, and I just don't know how much more I can take it. And that Sunday, the song, the last song was It Is Well With My Soul. And what was the sermon that morning? The sermon was on, you know, confess. You know, if you're holding anything in, let somebody know. And I thought, I'm not telling anybody what we're going through because they'll think that,

We're really messed up. I got to put on the perfect little face and us all dress up for church like everybody else does at church. And that's why I couldn't tell nobody. So whenever I left, I just thought,

I was driving back across the lake. I was like, God, I can't do this anymore. And I didn't know that Mac had hit a wall when we left. And the girls were in the backseat singing. Oh, they were singing church songs in the backseat, you know, and I'm just boohooing, crying, can't even see the road. And I get home, and he's sitting in his recliner. I'd never seen him cry before.

And he was crying. Because real men don't cry. Right. He was a tough man. He knew how to be mean, but he didn't know how to cry. And so I go in there. He's sitting in his recliner. He has this manila legal size pad, two pages written out. And I'm looking at him thinking, what in the world's wrong with him? What's happened?

And he said, I got to tell you some things, Mary. I got to tell you what I've been doing, and I want to turn my life over to God. And I was so—it was just like a relief because I thought—

We can do this. If he's going to be honest and tell me what he's up to, I don't care what he tells me. We can get past this, you know? And so he did. He started telling it off to me. I just sat on the floor beside him while he was sitting in his recliner, and he spoke it. He read the letter to me. He had burned all his paraphernalia and drugs and everything. And so he said, okay, I'm turning my life around. And I said, well, we've got to talk to somebody. We can't do this by ourselves.

And he said, well, who are we going to call? I said, we're going to call Ray. That was our pastor then. He was an old country preacher. He was such a wonderful man of God. He was an old country preacher that loved broken people. He did. And that was the coolest thing ever because he came over that day.

Because I was like, you know, okay, I guess I'll talk to Ray. What I didn't know, he'd been coming to my shop for years and he would get me to build stuff for him. And it was stuff he didn't even need. I mean, he just gave me to build. He was building a relationship because he saw something in me that was worthwhile and

while others saw worth less. And so he came over that day and said, look, you don't have to confess before the whole church, but if you do, you might help somebody else. I'm thinking, I might help somebody else. I'm the one that needs help right now. So anyway, we went to church that night. I want to ask a question of Paul real quick, because you're at the church at this moment. I am. Before this moment. Yeah.

Was that, I mean, was the church a place where you kind of... Well, I think it was, but we didn't know it. It was, no, I don't think it was. The heart was there, but it was like, what's about to happen is a shocking moment. Because I'm watching Mac every Sunday because I always love Mac and Mary and their family, and I'm seeing him over coming down off of highs. He's nodding his head. He's trying to do his best. Or shooting up in the church bathroom. Well, either that or...

Yeah, because you had the overalls on and all that from work. But nobody went. No overalls at church. They wore them every Sunday. Every Sunday. And so when he went forward that Sunday night,

I don't know how much he knows this, but everybody still talks about that, about how that changed the DNA of our church. Yeah. And there's a reason why we're a Celebrate Recovery church now is because he led the way on that. Because that's what happened, right? Yeah.

Ray says go down front, which that's a term we use at our church. Right. Altar call. It's an altar call. They say, we love you and we want to help you, but we don't know what to do with you. I mean, we're going to do something, but we don't know what it is. That's exactly what they said. They said, you're our first drug addict. We don't know what to do with you, but we want you to keep coming back. And that's what I heard. But there's a little lady there that came up to me that night. She goes, I think you need to go to AA. And I said,

is that like a car club? She said, no, that's triple A. You need double A alcohol. It's anonymous. That was a true story. True story. You go down front though, and the way the church, the way that our church would have the altar call, you go down front, you kind of tell the preacher, hey, here's what I'm dealing with. And the preacher would say, hey, this is, you know, Matt comes down front. He would tell the church and it was kind of like a prayer.

But this moment was a little different than probably normal, right? Yeah, because normally when somebody came down front, I remember I had to come down front years earlier when I was a teenager. And Bill, his father-in-law, one of our mentors, took my response. And he said, well, he said his priorities are out of line, but I think he just likes to sin. Okay.

Okay, well, I'm not coming in. Oh, I had a resentment for him. I had a resentment towards him for years. Later, I had to go back and make amends, part of my recovery journey.

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And I told him how much I didn't like him. He said, oh, I knew that. Bill, if you're listening, Bill is your father-in-law who is the one who my mom brought into the bar. Right. This is the car crash you were talking about. This is the car crash. It all comes together. And I was so afraid when he was going to go forward that night because I remembered when he got...

beat up for going forward and stuff the other time. And so I'm thinking, they're going to kick us out of the church. We're fixing to be gone from here. And I have really messed up my whole family. I've disrespected them. And we're just going to be the black sheep. You're just under shame. Yes, I am. But you know what I heard? I heard my mama's voice. She said this verse so many times. Do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be afraid.

For I am your God. I will strengthen you and I will help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. So we got up and walked up front, not knowing what was fixing to happen, but it was like

All these people, hundreds of people came down and grabbed us and hugged us and was crying. Oh, I had a lot of tears. It was so beautiful. Me being one of them. It felt like freedom. We didn't have to keep a secret anymore. We had freedom. And if somebody was going to talk about it, well, everybody already knew it anyway. You detonated your own time bomb, as Al would say. You just detonated your own time bomb. But that moment, honestly, like when I think about the history of...

the church that we all were, you're still an elder there. And I served there for years, not as an elder, but I served in ministry there for years. You were an elder there. My dad was an elder. Bill was an elder. Like that DNA, there was a moment, something happened in that moment of the confession. You know, James 5 says, confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed. Yeah.

And you guys embodied that. And that became like a reoccurring theme. You walk down the aisle, you confess. And how many times have you seen...

the church just go up and surround them. One of the things that I love about our church is that it's real people serving a real God and the transparency of all of it. And I think it started then. The transparency, the freedom of going, you know, I'm struggling. I'm hurting. I've been messing up. I've committed adultery. Whatever it is, I'm on drugs. I'm on whatever. It don't matter. No.

Nobody's there to throw a rock or stone anytime. Yeah. I mean, it's welcome. Come on down. We're going to work through this. We'll do whatever we got to do. Every sin. Huh? Any sin. Oh, yeah. Oh, it don't matter. Anything you're struggling with. And nobody's going to respond alone. Yeah.

Even if we don't know them, somebody's going to go down there and sit with them, rally around them, pray over them, love on them, and it's still that way today. That's right. Oh, absolutely. It's a safe place. It says you guys then from there, y'all connect up with Phil and Kaye

And y'all started a house church together, right? Right. Yeah. That was a pretty interesting story. Actually, I went to treatment. That's where they said, you know, Mary said, this guy wants to talk to you at this treatment center. And I said, I'm not crazy. I said, you know, but if you want me to go, I'll talk to him. He won't want me to stay. You'll see. Well, he did want me to stay. And so I told him, I said, I guess I'll stay, but I got to go home and I get my, I got to get my stuff. And I said, that's okay. Your stuff's in the trunk.

I was ready. He wasn't coming back home. He wasn't coming back home. I couldn't even leave the door, man. So you said, no, we'll bring it in. You just stay right back here. And so it was supposed to be a 30-day treatment center. And at 19 days, they said, we can't do anything more for you because of Whites Fair Road.

The next Sunday, I'm in this treatment center. Ray Milton gets up there. The Sunday before, by the way, was the first time anybody actually said what somebody was sinning for. And Ray said, Mike's doing drugs. Oh, they never said that before. See, that's funny because I thought...

That's all I ever saw at the church. Never. And sometimes Phil took the responses at church and you were like, I know what I'm talking about. We're not going to tell that story. You'll be bleeping me out. Yeah, I'll just say this if you're listening. Phil would take responses at the church and certain confessions need a little nuance when they're relayed back to the church.

And Phil was unfiltered in giving it back to the church. So, yes, I think y'all may have elders. Y'all may have collectively decided, Phil, you don't get to do the responses anymore. On that Sunday, and there will probably be plenty of Facebook comments, what was the response? We're not going to say it. No, no, no. We're not going to say it. No, it's okay. But on that Sunday, of course, her dad's sitting down front, and I'm taking responses, but I'm looking at her dad, and he's just like...

like, he started holding his chest. I'm like, oh, he's going to die right now. And after that, the next elders meeting, all the elders, the older elders got up to Phil and said, look, you're going to be taking responses in the back of the auditorium.

I know I never saw him again. No mic. That was the last time we got to get up on the mic for response time. Oh, I so wish we could tell that story, but we just can't. But just know this, that Phil has said things from the pulpit that would shock, even what you know of Phil would still shock you. But he was the only one that could do it and get away with it. Right, right, right.

We got derailed with that. He did get banished to the back. But anyway, so I'm in this treatment center. I've been in there a week now. And so the next Sunday morning, Ray gets up and said, hey, we're going to send everybody, Mac, a card this Sunday. Everybody just get a card out and write something to Mac. And look, I got over 700 emails.

cards that next day in that treatment center. And, um, I still have them to this day. I have them in an envelope at home. All those cards, all those years ago of a church family that loves somebody that was as broken as you can get. And, uh,

That was one of the most amazing things in my life. That's why the treatment center finally said at 19 days, you got what you need. You got your people. And I got my people. And so I come back to church the next Sunday and I see Phil there. I didn't know him. I like duck hunting. He

He liked duck hunting. I didn't use his duck calls. I used Jensen duck calls and old duck calls. Oh, yeah. He still, from the early days, he's like, I can't believe you. Those are the sorriest calls ever. They were easy to blow. Yeah, they were. They were. And by the way, in the 40 years that I knew Phil,

He never called me Mac one time. He always called me Owens. And I was Miss Owens. Sister Owens. Sister Owens. Yeah. And all the time we spent together was still that. But anyway, so I went up to him and I heard he'd been sharing the gospel with people.

And I'm like, I think I need to know how to do that. Start with this guy. Yeah, start with this guy. And so I went up, took two weeks to do it. He didn't wait that long. But I went up to him and said, hey, I heard you share the gospel with people. I think I need to learn how to do that. He said, yeah, I'll get back with you. And he just walks off. So two weeks go by and he didn't give me a call. And so I called him up and I said, hey,

I thought this was like some kind of brotherhood or something. And are you ashamed of me? Cause you have not given me a call. He said, Hey, Oh, it's I'll get back with you. It's bomb. And look, he said, he said, he looked over at K and he said, that was that Owens cat. He said, I think he's serious. Yeah.

And look, from that moment on, we went on. I would stop my work. He would give me a call. I got to study. Got to study. We would go on more. We want to more Bible studies together. I became his scribe. Yeah. In other words, he would share the gospel, but he never would give people verses. So I said, I must start writing them down. And so everything he'd share, I'd write it down and then give it to the person as they left there. And so that's how I learned to share the gospel was just by writing down what he had been sharing with people.

And I'll never forget that we went on one run, 23 gospel studies and no response. It was a response, all right, but it was like, we don't want none of that. And I'm like, good night, son. What are we going to do? And he's like,

The next one's coming. And it kept going. Finally, on number 24, this old sinner that used to play football with him at Tech, we find him somewhere, and he says, no, I want in on this. And Phil looked at me and said, 24. Y'all share the gospel day and night, like every day of the week. And so at one point, Kay and I said,

We got to get them out. They just can't. They're going to burn themselves out. They have got to do something different. It was high octane. It was. And so we said, they got to go to a movie. Well, Phil's never been to a movie in his life. And now there's a movie about him, you know. But he would not go. And we said, this is going to be called Get Out of Yourself Night. And so... They approached us with this. And I want you to tell that story because...

I still thank God today for good, godly women who have questionable taste in men. Yes. We could all have been that. Yeah, right? Yeah, we all got one of those. Yeah, right. So we'd get them to go to the movie one night a week, and we'd have so much fun, you know, because we would laugh and talk and go eat good food and go to a movie. And it was just a blast getting them out like that for a little bit. It was the most...

uncomfortable thing that me and Phil could have ever done. But we love it. Isn't it good memories now? It is. Well, we love it, yeah. I love remembering going with Kay like to Sam's to get all y'all's snacks for the hunting days. And we would get, oh, let's see, it was oatmeal cream pies.

Chocolate-covered cherries. And let's see, there was one of them. What was that other one? Honey buns. Honey buns. That's right. I like the duck blind almost. We would buy cases of all that for y'all for the duck blind. Yeah.

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It's crazy. As you guys are saying this, I'm thinking about, okay, this is kind of the cool crash moment, like God's sovereignty. I think about Acts 17, that God has determined the exact times and places that all men should live so that they would seek him out, perhaps finding that he's not far from each one of us. The story is interesting because my mom,

Before you were married to your wife, my mom goes to Bill Smith, your future father-in-law, and says, you need to go talk to my brother because he needs to hear about Jesus and he'll listen to you. And eventually he did, and he becomes a Christian who then leads you to Christ, who, by the way, then you married the pastor's daughter who led. I mean, and you were the first person that he led to Christ.

which your dad was the one who was partner with his father-in-law and started the church that we're all a part of. And then now you're coming back in through the back door, right? And now you're learning to share the gospel by sitting with Phil and being the first, you would describe it that you became a gospel presenter in your own right. Right. And then now my mom's son, me enters in a broken guy, just an insecure kid back into this same system. And then,

Literally, if you say, name your spiritual heroes, you two are in that mix. Bill's in there for sure. You guys are in there. Bill's in there. But you guys taught me and Jill how to do what we're doing. Now we're in North Carolina in the embers of the revival that started at White Street Railroad when you went down with your wife to confess your sin. Now we're in the middle of a revival. Yes.

Mountain, North Carolina. It's like God's sovereignty and the kingdom of God is on fire. That's awesome. Alive and active. I love it. I love that because the

Bill Smith, too, who was the one that converted Phil, became our mentor. And even, like I said a while ago, I had to go make amends to him because I had this major resentment against him. And then he became one of the men. You know, he was a hard man. I mean, I would hate to say a little bit pharisaical.

But then he softened, and he became one of the most genuine Christians I've ever met in my life. He repented for that publicly, which was like... Yes, he did. Again, going back to the confession thing, I mean, Bill...

He was a hard man, but he was a truth seeker. Yeah. He was. Oh, big time. 100%. 100%. And I love the fact that there was a guy at our church one Sunday. This is after we'd had recovery meetings going in the church and everything. And Jason Jenkins. Oh, yeah. He comes to church this one Sunday morning, and he come up to me afterwards, and he said,

And Bill was there, too. He said there was a group of people who were like visually worshiping this morning. Who are those people? And Bill Smith, he said, oh, those are the drug addicts and alcoholics. He said once they got here, they taught the rest of us how to be honest. And that's true.

What did you call it? Visually worshiping? Yeah, they were visually worshiping. They were gyrating. That's true. It is, because I can sit over and look at them and watch them and start tears running down my face because of the honesty and the true worship. Yeah, because as that unfolds, you guys end up starting the Celebrate Recovery at our church. Yeah.

Right, yeah. Which was kind of like, at the time, there was like, we kind of had a, you had a ministry called Overcomers. Overcomers. Which you had a few guys. It was, you know, we'd like, oh, that's Max Little. You know, the thing he does. And then, well, then it became

Yeah, like this Friday night, they'll have probably 500 people there. Oh, it's crazy. It's the largest in the country outside of Saddleback. And now you're an elder at that church overseeing part of that ministry that you started at the church, and you guys now have gone on to do. You're in Colorado, but you're leading, helping lead the Global Celebrate Recovery Ministry. Is that right? Right. What do you guys do there? I am the...

global director of Celebrate Recovery. And what that means is that, you know, people say, what does that title mean? I said, first of all, I'm not real big on titles, but it means I was more messed up than anybody else. But your dad, I love it. Your dad's in this picture too. He's at our Celebrate Recovery one night and, you know, he did a video. He had got a guy coming from Texas, did a video of Bill, Phil, myself,

And it was just about how the progression of the sharing the gospel goes and how you- Like the generations of it. Yeah, generations. And this dude, he's an ex-baseball player or whatever. He's huge, man. He's in our Celebrate Recovery that night because Gordon, your dad said, hey, you want to go to CR tonight? He said, what is CR? He said, oh, you got to come by. So he goes in there and they're worshiping that night. And I look back- Visually worshiping. Visually worshiping. And I look back and this guy, big old dude sitting down and just bawling.

And your dad looks over at me and says, is everything okay? He said, yeah. He said, well, what's going on? He said, I've never seen people worship like this. And your dad said, nobody told them they couldn't. That's exactly right. I know, right? That's one of them. They don't know any better. I'll use that. I love that. It's so good. I was thinking that this verse came to mind because

I don't know if we have a Bible study on here, but I think this is so good to hear. I really want our audience to hear about the DNA that really Phil embodied and was a huge part of it. And Phil was certainly a main character in his own right. Si said that on our podcast. He said, yeah, Phil was a main character and I was a sidekick.

But truthfully is, is that Jesus is the main character. Right. And that we're all his sidekicks. Right. And we're all, you know, we're all part of this kingdom thing that we talk about on this podcast all the time, that the kingdom of God is here, the kingdom of God is now. Yes, it's going to, yes, we were waiting on the full fruition of it. Yes, we're waiting on the second coming.

But, you know, the Bible, Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God. The kingdom is an offensive thing that will storm through the gates of hell. And I think about the ministries that we're all a part of now that the Holy Spirit's allowed us just to be in. I mean, when I went to that thing with you, like I'm telling you, it was to see...

The men in that room confessed the things that had, it was so raw and so real. And it was, and I had just white tree road DNA all over it. It had the DNA of you, you guys all over it. It had Phil's DNA, all of my mom. It was like, I said, for me, it was more than just seeing healing and happening. I was like, this is our DNA. This is the DNA of the kingdom. This is what we've been a part of. And, um,

I wanted to read this to y'all as encouragement. One of my favorite verses in the Bible. Uh, now, uh, this is about like the role of the church and, um,

Because a lot of times we think about the role of the church in what we're called to witness to the world around us. But listen, it's more than that. Listen to what the Apostle Paul says. He says that, this is Ephesians 3.10, that through the church, the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. And I think about that. What we've been able to be a part of

as making the manifold wisdom known, not just to the world, to the rulers and the authorities that are sitting in the heavenly realms. You want to talk about a calling as the church, that is a calling. The commentary says that we are a theater of God's work. Yeah.

We're on stage. We're on a theater of God's love. Cosmic stage. Yep. It's a cosmic stage that we are in. Absolutely. I love that scripture. That's good. That's very good. Well, he says in Ephesians 6 there too that he says, you know, that our battle is not against flesh, but against the heavenly beings that are just right outside of our view. You know, so there's a battle going on right here, but because of this and us sharing God's

to change lives in the heavenly realms. They're like... Oh, well, one of the benefits of sitting under someone's pastoral leadership is that you remember things that they have said over the years and they stick with you. And you said something. I don't know where you said it, but I know you said it. It was, I think, at a funeral. And I can't remember whose funeral it was, but you mentioned Hebrews 12.1. You know what I'm about to say? Oh, I do. I know exactly what I'm about to say. Yeah.

I want you to share that because now Phil is in this. I know you probably aren't going to write that name down in your Bible. Already written. You already did it? Yeah. Matter of fact, I wrote it down. Well, years ago, I love that verse because it says, therefore you're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. And because of that, you need to get rid of the sin that so easily entangles you and throw that off so that you can run the race again.

that you were that has been set before you and so years ago uh one of my heroes actually darren allison died and i was just looking at that verse and i said he's in that great cloud of witnesses now i'm writing his name down in here and so from that day forward every time somebody died that was prominent in my life i would write their name down

And so actually, Alan Lisa texted me that night and said, would you send us a picture of Hebrews 12? And I knew what they meant. And so I did. And I have there was a it's really cool because there was one place left in my Bible that was Phil's place. I didn't know it, but it was right there.

above that part that said you're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses and so in big bold letters i just wrote feel and then i put an arrow out beside it and at the top of the page my friend and brother and so so yeah he's in hebrews 12 now if you if you never thought about that i would encourage you when somebody passes on in your life that has meant something to you in the faith go to hebrews 12 and just put their name in the margins yeah

I don't know. I don't think I can add anything to what you just said. So we're going to end with that. Okay. I love you guys. Thank you all for coming on. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed Podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.