George Wagner Takes the Stand Part II
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His account of his relationship with Hannah Mae Roden and according to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again, is this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable human being or is this just a show? I don't see how they could ever believe something like that because Hannah and Frankie and Christina and their family would never do anything to a child.

It now becomes a case of who do you believe, Angela and Jake, and all of the circumstantial evidence or George. Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, Season 4, Episode 22, George Wagner Takes the Stand, Part 2. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.

His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he had with his father, Billy. We pick up with a continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation. As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, George said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out.

Explain his living situation. He stayed with my grandparents. On the Flying W? Yes. Do you know why? Multiple reasons. One, he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore. And two, my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't get out of bed. So if I understand you correctly, your father was spending a lot of time at the Flying W helping with his father's care? Yes. And kind of also at the same time, what was the relationship between him and your mother?

It basically went to, they might as well just called it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced. As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to date Tabitha Claytor. When their relationship ended, George said his brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Roden, played matchmaker. She was the one who got Tabitha and George back together. Now, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship. Describe your relationship. I looked at Hannah as a baby sister. What do you mean by that?

My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me, and my Uncle Chris acted like a brother to me. Would you do things with Hannah? We'd go fishing together, four-wheeling, fix buckeyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth, talk to each other about what was bothering each other. How else would you describe your relationship? We'd sit around and tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd put beer and stuff in.

different containers so Jake wouldn't know she was drinking. Okay, and what did Jake think of your relationship? He, uh, I don't think he really liked it. He always said I was too close to her. And were you anything ever more than big brother, little sister? No. There's quite a bit. Any age difference? Is that right? I think five and a half years, maybe six. And would you do other activities?

We'd sit around and tell dirty jokes with each other. If Hannah was having an emotional day, she'd talk to me about it. Or if I was having an emotional day, I'd talk to her about it. And at this time, you're kind of a big fella, right? Yes. Is that something you would ever talk to Hannah about? That's kind of like a two-way street with us. What do you mean by that? She worried about her weight, and I worried about mine. So what would you do? Sit there and talk to each other about what possible ability to lose weight.

After being reunited by Hannah Mae Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha were married in 2012. George described a difficult marriage. And did Tabby have any medical or other issues? She had really bad fits. What do you mean? She would freak out and yell and scream. She would just rock back and forth and cry on average two or three times a week. And so what would you do?

At that point in time? Yeah. Just try and calm her down. Usually if I'd just give her a hug, she'd calm down, but... Do you know if she was ever on any medication? She's supposed to be. Did she take her medication? No. How did that affect your relationship? We had a lot of really good days until she had her fix. So you continued on with your relationship? Yes. And so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes. We tried for over a year to have our son.

And finally she got pregnant with him. Best moment of my life. But that happiness was short-lived. She ended up telling me she was growing her best friend's dad. I mean, it was kind of heartbreaking in a way, but she swore that the baby was mine and we went on with it.

A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the damage to their relationship was significant. When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA test to make sure he was mine. But while we were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her at that point. What do you mean you tried to leave her? She begged and cried and pleaded for me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a kid on her own. So what did you do? I ended up caving and stayed with her.

George Wagner said between his own family's intense fighting and Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away. But because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to take care of his son, George didn't. And who had, let's say, primary responsibility? Who took care of him the most? Yeah. Me and my mother. What about Tabitha? When she was around somebody else. She had a habit of always getting hurt when he was around her. What do you mean by that? She'd bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath. He'd have a new knot on his head or...

She shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time. She might have tried to catch him, but I think she pushed him off the picnic table is what it looked like to me. Do you think she was abusing him? Define that. Well, do you think she was purposely harming him? I can't say on any of them other than the vegetables, and she did that on purpose. What happened then? He kept trying to reach for them, and she shoved his hand in them when they were too hot and held it there until it burned him. Were you there? No, that's just what she said she did.

So what was your reaction? Didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt. Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising a child. The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel. I had come in from working and my kid was sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old, maybe, before the house, right after the house burnt. And I couldn't find Tabby anywhere and she was locked in the bathroom.

Okay, what happened? After I got the door open, she was sitting in the bathroom in a pool of her own blood. In what? She was trying to kill herself. How was she doing that? She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself. What did you do? I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up and tried to get her to go to the hospital, and she refused, and they put her on a sideboard, and I tried to get her to just let me and her move to Alaska at that point.

So what'd you actually do? I put her in a truck and was going out the driveway. I tried to get her to go to the hospital. Did you have any intentions of moving at that point? Yes. I was going to move her to Alaska because she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore. Why didn't you go to Alaska at that point? She said we had no money and didn't have no way to get there. And we'd be better off to stay there where we had a roof over our head. So you agreed with that? Yes. Why didn't you have a clue? I didn't want to take the chance of being broke with no roof over my head.

During one of Tabitha's, quote, fits, George Wagner testified that she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important to note that Tabitha Claytor denies any abuse towards her son.

So I told her to calm down, quit yelling at him, and I'll do it. And she got mad and tried to swing the s*** around and bumped his head off the wall, so I took the s*** off him.

and gave him to Hannah. After that, Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and went out on the patio. I went out to try and calm her down and she was doing her normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. About that time, my mother came home

No. She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument and I told her it was not her business and she went in the house after I yelled at her a couple of times. After that,

After a few hours of looking, George said he found Tabitha at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was still in a relationship with her friend's father.

Here's Jeff and Stephanie.

Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot of emotion. And so I think what George Wagner and his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen, the jury has heard a lot of horrible things about George and his family. And so to hear something a little more vulnerable and makes him sound more sensitive, I think their thinking can't hurt.

The one detail that I heard was his account of his relationship with Hannah Mae Roden. And according to George, they were very close and they were dear friends and that they both were very self-conscious about their weight. And they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable human being or is this just a show? We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life. James became a really close friend of mine. I kind of looked at Rick as a second father figure. Why do you say Rick was a second father? He always gave me a lot of advice growing up. Was that advice different than what you'd received earlier? Yes. Explain it. God.

He basically told me not to continue down the road I was going, doing the stuff that my father did. And did you take that advice to heart? It took a long time to get it completely out of my system, but yes. When did you start taking his advice to heart? Around the time that me and Tabby got married. And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got married, and you liked to drink and have a good time down at Big Bear Lake, right? Yes.

Increasingly, George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting a lot. This also angered his mother, Angela. And how did that affect your relationship? About me spending time with them and her wanting me to stay and do everything she wanted on the farm. So you talked earlier about how Mr. Roden was giving you advice. Yes. And did that ever, did his advice ever sink in?

At one point in time, yes. He basically tried to steer me away from where my father was leading me. Explain what you mean. It was going to end up badly one day with the theft and the fuel and the loads. I'd always have to look over my shoulder. All right, so what did you do? Eventually, I quit. Quit what? Everything my dad taught me. About how old were you when that happened? Late 2014.

Late 2014, yes. George said as he looked to change his own life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him and that he considered her a close family member. Did you like having Hannah around? Yes. Why is that? She was like a baby sister to me. What was her relationship with your father? Her and dad was always goofing off with each other. How about Hannah and your mother?

My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of stuff together. They'd bake all the time, cook all the time. She followed her around like a lovesick puppy dog basically. You thought they had a good relationship? Yes. Did you ever know of a time when the relationship soured in any way? Between my mom and Hannah? Yes. Not really. What about between her and Jake? Got to where they fought and argued a lot. Did there come a time when they separated? Yes. My brother and Hannah are daylight and dark to each other.

- What do you mean? - I didn't think she'd ever leave him, but they also didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things and Jake didn't want her to. - What kind of things did Hannah want to do? - Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She kind of missed out on being a teenager when she got with Jake.

Major developments today in Pike County. George Wagner IV took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner IV is claiming he never took part in or had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodin family. After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John Parker turned to the April 2016 murders.

When asked by his lawyer if he knew where his family, quote, stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance. Yes. No. No.

Did you know anything about the contents? No. George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodens well and liked them. He then went on to explain some of the connections between the two families. What was the relationship between Chris Sr. and your father? And how would you describe their relationship, like, right before the murders? Really close friends. What do you mean by really close friends? Close friends, business partners. Business partners and what? Well, really, I would say more like...

While George knew all of the Rodens, Frankie was the one he was closest with. I still consider him one of my best friends, yes.

Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him in the 2016 murders. He denied taking part in or having knowledge of the murders, as his mother and brother had claimed. You've heard testimony from Jake, correct? Yes. You heard your mom testify, right? Yes. It was in April of 2016, right? Or March of 2016, or going all the way back to January. Were you aware at any time that Jake and your dad...

and your mom were planning to kill the Rosens. No. Was that ever discussed with you? No. Did you have any idea that was going to happen? No. Did you know of any reason that your family wanted to kill the Rosens? No. Did Jake ever come to you and explain what was going to happen? No. Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way? No. What about your mother? No. What about your father? No. If one of them had come to you,

and ask you to be involved in something like this, what do you think you would have done? At first, I don't think I would have believed it. Why is that? I just don't. I never would have believed my family would be capable of doing something of this magnitude. Well, you've described in some detail the thefts, the arsons that your family participated in. Yes. Other illegal activities. Yes. Including yourself. Yes. So why didn't you think they could do something like this? Theft is one thing. Murder is an entirely different thing.

Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local 12.

I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were you there? Did you do anything? Did you know about it ahead of time? When did you find out that they were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer was, not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read his proper. And even then he didn't believe it. He says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean, it was stunning to hear that. After everything we've heard about him, one,

wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, "Oh, we got to get a lawyer. We got to get the best lawyer." His mother saying, "I'll take the fall for it." His mother saying that George said, "I'll take the fall for it," which he says he never said. So yeah, I mean, it now becomes a case of who do you believe? Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence or George?

On the night of the murders, George Wagner claimed he was with his son and father Billy before heading to bed. Well, what did you do the day before, the night before? One of the things, went up on the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad came down, brought my kid donuts again, which he never would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to leave, so he stayed with my kid. And did you ever leave to go up and commit these murders? No. Did you know that...

Jake and your dad had left? No. How do you explain that? I just didn't know they left. Did you go to bed that night? Did you go to sleep that night? Yes. George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee, and went with Jake to tear down a structure on his grandfather's property. When I got back to the house, the news was saying that there had been people killed on Union Hill. And my dad was freaking out, saying he couldn't get a hold of Christina. Where was Jake? Jake was outside on the phone.

Where was your mother? The mudroom, I believe. So what was your reaction? I was trying to ask my dad what was really on the news and what was going on and he was still freaking out saying Chris wouldn't answer the phone. And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson had told him that Hannah and Frankie and everybody had been killed. What was your reaction? I really don't know how to put it into words. Take a minute. Do the best you can. It was more heartbreaking and

more of a trauma than I've ever been through in my life. So what did you do? I ended up getting on my four-wheeler and going up the hill. Up the hill behind your farm? Yes. Why did you do that? I always go out in the woods when I need to calm down or need a little bit of therapy. And how long did you stay there? A couple hours maybe. When I come back down, Samantha Frederick called me a little after her and my ex-wife Tabby called me. What was Jake doing?

He was sitting in the living room kind of like a daze. What was your dad doing? He was still in the living room and just kind of sitting there talking to Jake, and Jake really wasn't responding. What was your mother doing? If I remember correctly, she was in the kitchen with the kids. George said despite what others had testified, he never discussed the murders with his family afterwards. Did your dad ever talk to you in those following days about the murder? No.

Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at any time about the murder? No. Did your mother ever talk to you at any time about the murder? No. Did you ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No. Did you have any clue your family was involved in this? No. George said he and his family attended the rodent funerals and his parents and Jake acted, quote, normal. Did you ever talk about the murders on the way? No. About on the way home? No. What was your dad's demeanor like?

What about Jake? Well, you saw him testify here, right? Yes. Yes. No. Never in my life. No. He won't even let you give him a hug.

George said later that his family went on a trip to Alaska in May of 2017 and on the way home were stopped and interrogated. Did you, at this point in time, know if your family had any involvement in these murders? No.

Were you upset that BCI was still looking at your family after all this time? Yes, I was very upset. And why is that? Because I was under the assumption that they were just trying to point the finger at anybody they could so they wouldn't continue to be like Facebook Topics was saying if they didn't know what they were doing for their job. I thought they were just trying to frame my mom and brother.

George said his interrogation by BCI agents at the border started friendly enough, but then they began accusing him and his family of killing the rodents. If I remember correctly, they started off talking about hunting and fishing. Okay. And then what? Then they started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and shoes. Did they show you any photographs or any documents? Did they show you? Yes, they showed me pictures of shell casings.

I believe a picture of a Walmart receipt and a pair of shoes. And what kind of questions were they asking? They were saying that my mom bought the pair of shoes and the receipt showed she bought them and that those were the shoes that was used. And then they said that they found a shell casing of the crime scene that matched my father's gun. And what was your reaction to all this? I didn't believe what they were saying. Were you told that your family was involved?

They accused my brother and my mother of it, yes. What was your reaction? I was just upset about it. I was emotionally distraught that they would accuse my family. So you're in this interview or interrogation in Montana. What was your understanding at the end of the interview? At the end of it? Yeah. My understanding of it was that they were either going to call me a suspect or a witness, whichever they decided, and that they wanted me to basically spy on my brother.

Did you agree to do that? Yes. Did you ever have a conversation with your brother after this Montana interrogation? Yes. Explain that. I asked my brother if he had had anything to do with it or if he knew who did. When did you have that conversation? When we got back from Montana and was on the farm reloading everything. Was anybody else around? No, it was just me and him. What was his response? He swore up and down that he didn't know who did it and that he didn't have nothing to do with it. Did you accept that?

I had no reason not to believe him. Let's stop here for another break.

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Every weekday afternoon, Post Reports takes you inside an important and interesting story by the kind of reporting that you can only get from The Washington Post. You can listen to Post Reports wherever you get your podcasts. Go find it now and hit follow.

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Were they publicized in Alaska? Yes. How's that? It ended up being broadcast on local news channels up there. What was broadcast? That my family were subjects of interest and anybody who had information about us should call this number. How did that make you feel? Not happy about it. When I first got to Alaska, I went to Sportsman's Warehouse to buy me a new Glock where I sold mine before I left and they sold it to me with no problems.

Then when I went back after that, they refused to sell me anything. Even now, George says he can't believe his brother and mother admitted to the killings. What did you think? I really didn't know how to take it or what to think. I first thought my brother had just gone crazy sitting in jail. Why did you think that? My brother's not a social person and doesn't get along well with people. I couldn't understand how my brother would be capable of doing something like this, especially after he'd sworn to me that he had nothing to do with it. How did that make you feel?

George says he had a similar reaction when his mother pled guilty. You still have a hard time comforting him? I have a hard time dealing with it, yes. You heard your brother come in here and testify that...

You were part of the plan. Yes, I heard that. Is that true? No. Did you help him in any way? No. Before the murder? No. Did you help him in any way afterward? No. Did you help him build that false bed on the truck? No. Did you crawl in that truck? No. Were you up on Union Hill Road that night? No. Did you help him get rid of the clothing afterward? No. Did you help him dig that hole? No.

Did you help him get rid of the guns and other things that were found on the concrete bucket? No. Now, you heard your mother testify too? Yes. How did it make you feel to have your mother testify against you? It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't even look at me. After George's denials, he said he didn't believe what Jake and his mother Angela's rationale was for the murders. You heard your brother testify about he thought ****** was being sexually abused? Yes. Same thing for your mother? Yes.

Did you at any time ever suspect that he was being sexually abused? No. What was your reaction when you heard your brother and your mother testify? I don't see how they could ever believe something like that. Why is that? Because Hannah and Frankie and Chris Sr. and their family would never do anything to a child. Do you know why your family did this? Can't even begin to imagine why. I've tried for the past year and a half to figure it out. Now that you know Jake has pled guilty, what do you think of him?

Here again, investigative journalist James Pilcher. He owned up to everything short of being part of the murders. He owned up to all the criminal activity, even on his own, outside of his family. He owned up to everything.

More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Python Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston.

The Piketon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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