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No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. It was perhaps the first time George Wagner IV heard his mother's voice in the four years since the family was arrested. Did you think that my son did it? Or anybody in your family? I'm asking you, can you tell me definitively now? Yes, I can tell you definitively now. I want the truth from you, okay? Did something happen?
You can see her attempting to fool, you know, everyone involved in this. Let's face it, we've got eight dead bodies in four separate locations. How in the world do you think that you can escape that? This is The Piketon Massacre, Return to Pike County. Season 4, Episode 14, The Matriarch Speaks. It's important to note that George Wagner IV has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the previous episode, we heard about how law enforcement came to view the Wagners as suspects in the murders of the Rodin, Manley, and Gilley families.
Before it was suspicion and things weren't adding up. Lead investigator Ryan Scheiderer says that changed about a year after the homicides when BCI agents matched spent shell casings at the Wagners home in Peebles. Based on that ballistics evidence, agents used search warrants to take deep dives into mobile devices used by George Wagner, who's on trial for murder, his brother Jake and their parents, Billy and Angela Wagner. After originally preparing to intercept the Wagners in North Dakota,
Investigators had to scramble to intercept the family at another Canadian border entry point. The Wagners were house hunting in Alaska. As they returned, agents intercepted them at the Canadian border.
A year after the murders, Wagner is accused of helping kill eight members of the Roden and Gilley families. Investigators detained the Wagners and placed each member of the family in a separate room. At this time, I believe you indicated that you were going to interview them as suspects instead of your prior contacts with them. Correct. The gig was up. They knew we were looking at them. While the Wagners were in custody, agents seized a laptop and an iPad from their vehicle.
Law enforcement also placed listening devices in the Wagner's SUV and bugged their phones. Upon cross-examination, John Parker from the defense brings up the quality of the audio obtained from the bug the agents placed in the Wagner's vehicle. There's really nothing useful that came from those listening devices on the vehicle. Is that fair to say?
They did not work as well as we hoped, correct? Right. There was nothing useful gained out of that, correct? The quality of the audio was less than desirable. There was nothing useful gained? Correct. Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local 12. And as it turns out, that was kind of a snafu too, because the road noise drowned out anything they could hear. They really didn't get
Because of the rush to set up in Montana as opposed to North Dakota, agents were unable to videotape the interviews.
Since the bug in the vehicle did not pick up usable audio, the audio recordings of the interviews at the Canadian border were all the investigators had. You interviewed Jake, is that correct? Yes, myself and Special Agent Moulthard. Okay, and do you recall how long that interview was approximately? Four to six hours maybe. That's a long interview, correct? And Judge, we would ask that we be allowed to play Jake's interview at this point.
The prosecution objects and Judge Deering instructs the jury to leave the room for a 15-minute recess. Judge Deering asks for the prosecution and defense to present their arguments on whether Jake's taped interviews should be played for the court.
Just the plain reading of evidence rule 801 says that the co-conspirator statement is attributed to the defendant. There's a lot of talk of rule 801, but the gist of it is that the defense cannot introduce as evidence another co-conspirator's testimony during cross. Only the state is allowed to do that. That's the whole nature of the co-conspiracy. So they all denied it, right? That was part of the conspiracy. So he does not get to put it in.
If and when Jake testifies, he certainly can use this to cross-examine him as a prior inconsistent statement at that point. John Parker argues that Jake's testimony is part of the defense's constitutional right to present a complete defense. Part of our complete defense is that Jake was lying to Montana and being untruthful. And that this co-conspirator statement was covering up his acts. We shouldn't have to wait to see if they call Jake as a witness.
When it's time to make a ruling, Judge Deering decides he needs to hear more argument. I'm not going to decide ultimately today whether we're going to be able to play that tape in the defense side of the case. I'll decide that tomorrow morning.
after I've heard arguments here. You should be ready by 845 to go on the record and argue that issue, and then I'll make that decision. They let the jury back into the courtroom, and Judge Deering addresses the court.
Ladies and gentlemen, the court, we're going to have an early day close today. The court has some things to do that do not involve the jury. Deering closes the day early to give the defense and prosecution time to prepare for tomorrow's hearing. Here again, James Pilcher. So I pretty much shut down the trial for the afternoon. And actually, the judge held it under advisement and said I'll rule on it tomorrow.
So we're all on pins and needles the next day as to whether or not we're going to have to sit through six hours of listening to Ryan and Jake talk to each other. News media reports the latest development in the trial. The defense tried to play Jake Wagner's first interrogation tape today, but the prosecution said, wait, you can't do that. We have to enter that as evidence first. And the judge said, show up here tomorrow morning and prepare to argue about it.
and he'll make a decision then. So that brings us to tomorrow. Will jurors hear Jake Wagner's five-hour interrogation tape? Will they hear Angela Wagner's two-hour interrogation tape? And how will George, the man on trial, come up in those tapes? But the next morning, it's not Jake's interview that makes news. George Wagner IV providing an explosive audio recording.
of his mom Angela's interrogation by BCI agents. - It was perhaps the first time George White II IV heard his mother's voice in the four years since the family was arrested.
Before the jury is brought in, Judge Deering hears arguments about whether to allow in the audio recording of Jake's interview from when the Wagners were intercepted at the Canadian border. Prosecutor Angie Canepa lays out her reasons for the objection. Jake made a complete denial. There was nothing that was taken from that interview by Special Agent Pettymark that informed next investigative steps. So I guess really one question would be for what purpose is this being recorded?
requested to be played. Here's John Parker with the defense. Because Jake has pled guilty to conspiracy. Angela has pled guilty to conspiracy. They are co-conspirators, all right? State's theory that our client is involved in this conspiracy. And even though the crime had been committed, murder to be done, this recording will reflect Jake's efforts to cover up his involvement.
Finally, Judge Deering makes a ruling.
Well, I think I understand the arguments of all, but I'm going to deny the request of defense to play the tape at this time. Here again, James Pilcher. One of the interesting things about this day was the prosecution specifically chooses not to play the tape of the recording they made with George. And there were some questions, OK, why aren't they playing this to show what he was saying at the time? As for the strategy of this, we think possibly they're not playing it so well.
If and when George decides to take the stand, he can't tailor his testimony to what he said at the border. And it's actually part of this argument about Jake as well. Jake's recording. And they say, no, that allows him to testify on his own behalf without taking the stand. So that's where that argument comes up. And it turns into another legal battle. And it's one the prosecution wins.
With Jake's interview ruled as inadmissible at this point in the trial, the prosecution calls up their next witness.
Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, that you shall answer unto God? I do. BCI agent Jennifer Comisford has six years' experience with the Special Investigations Unit in Ohio BCI. She wears a polka dot shirt and a blazer with straight brown hair that falls to her shoulders. She is relaxed on the stand. Agent Comisford was one of the agents present for the searches of the Wagner's farm and trailers.
She was also on the team of agents that interviewed the Wagners at the Canadian border. You treated it like a custodial interview. Tell us what that means.
We treated it as a custodial interview in that we Mirandized Angela Wagner because we treated it as though she was in custody, not free to leave and that she was being interrogated. So we read her Miranda rights. Your Honor, at this time I would request to play the recording of Special Agent Thomas Kurtz's interview with Angela Wagner at the Montana border.
The prosecution queues up the tape of Angela's interview and begins playing it for the jury. The defendant, George Wagner, stares down at his feet. But the reason why he made it was obviously...
Okay, dealing with all that noise going down in Pike County. And that's the reason we came up here to get away from all that. Okay. Okay. Tracing the media is all over us. Have you been following any of that? Of course, yes. You just want to get away from down there and talk to you outside of the state of Ohio and Pike County. I think it would be best for everybody. I have some personal questions for you though. Sure. How was Alaska? We love it.
Here again, James Pilcher. This recording of Angela is really significant, first of all. It's the first time we hear her voice in the courtroom. But second of all, it gives us a sense of their state of mind as they're becoming aware that they're being suspects, they're being treated as suspects. Agent Comisford and Agent Rick Ward ask about Angela Wagner's relationship with the Rodin family. The relationship I had with Rodin was through him.
Hannah and my son Jake were together for five years. Were they married? No. Okay. Did they intend on getting married? Yes. Okay. They had a wedding planned. Everything was planned out for that. She had everything organized, everything ready. And I know that she wanted a break.
And she took a break and... How did you take it? Well, it was hurt. Of course. You know, Jake was in love with his wife. Right. I mean, my son doesn't take anything lightly. Do you know why Hannah wanted a break? You know what? I don't know. I know that Hannah was really young when her and Jake got together.
And what's the age difference for her between the two? And I was 13. My son was 17, 16 and a half. Okay. Investigators ask Angela about her relationship with Hannah May Roden. So your relationship with Hannah was good. I thought she was a school brat, but I thought she was a school brat because she really was.
I mean, no offense, but she was. Her dad let her get away with everything. She would give me looks and she would snarl and she would tell Jake I was being mean. You know, but that's typical teenage stuff. Yeah, well, typical. Sometimes mother-in-laws can tell. Mother-in-laws are the worst. Right. Easy, easy to get close. The agents bring the conversation back to Jake's reaction to Hannah Roden dating other people. So when Hannah gets pregnant,
with the other name, the other guy. Yeah. How did they quote number one with the other boyfriend or boyfriends and Jake? Well, one, Jake never talked to the other boyfriends. Okay. Now, actually, Jake, the only time he ever talked to Charlie was whenever they were in the courtroom and they were going to determine who he and A was. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The paternity test showed that Charlie Gilley, and not Jake Wagner, was the father of Hannah's second baby. The agents ask if Angela was upset about Hannah Mae getting pregnant by another man who was not Jake. Even she told me, she had texted me when she texted me about being pregnant. She was afraid I would be upset. Were you? I wasn't upset, no. No? I was upset when she left Jake, yeah.
Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. One of the striking things about this is they begin to talk about the fact that Hannah had kind of separated herself away from the rest of the family, had gone out and gotten pregnant by another guy. And I really wonder, you know, she says that that didn't necessarily upset her. Does anybody actually believe that?
You know, because I think that it would have been Angela's desire to continue to have control, you know, Hannah. You know, because if you have control over Hannah, you have control over the child that she had with Jake. BCI agent Rick Ward asked Angela about Billy Wagner's relationship with Hannah Mae Roden. With Hannah? Yeah. Oh, God, he loved that girl. He called her his brat, but he loved her, you know. I mean, that's why I always told Chris. I said, Chris...
Even if they break up, she's still gonna be my daughter. Sorry, but you're gonna have to share. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Well, we know Steph from interviewing close Wagner family friends.
that they were aware that they were kind of under the lens of law enforcement and that they were kind of planning for potentially being interrogated or talked to. And so when we hear these recordings, it's so interesting and fascinating. I mean, I don't think this is so off the cuff. Like, I think they had a little bit of a script in their heads.
You're right. But again, even if they have a script and they have a plan, it's real different when you're separated for the first time and being asked and questioned by authorities. This is the moment. This, by all accounts, is the moment where authorities collected the most data that would be later used against them. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
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You've been in that trailer. Were you ever in Chris's trailer? One time. One time? How long ago was that?
Oh my gosh, I don't know. Three, well let's see, women. Four? Maybe four years ago? I don't like sitting on the couch with this much dog hair on it. No offense, his dogs were great, you know, I mean, but no, I don't like sitting in dog hair. I heard dogs at least, I mean, friendly, you don't have to worry about anything like that? No, you have to, okay, let's put it this way.
If he's there, you're okay. Chance is a big, lovey dog. Sweet as he can be. They're home. Jake's gotten bit several times by Chance.
She was not particularly a fan of the rodents, it sounds like. Thought they were too messy. Thought, you know, she never went over to Christina's. She went over once for the Fourth of July party and it was too smoky and there was too much dog hair everywhere. Agents then bring it back to the murders. So when this incident occurs, what were your initial thoughts? I was horrified. Hannah had just been to my house.
Just days before the murders, Angela Wagner says that Hannah Mae Roden came by to show her new baby to Jake, George, and Angela. Okay. And was everything cool or anything? Yeah, she was...
Investigators bring the interview back to the day after the murders. Right in the morning or...
Angela tells the agents she was with Billy at the Peterson Road residence when she heard the news about the rodents being murdered.
He was devastated. When he was crying, he was upset. Was he home when he hurt him? Were you guys all together? He was outside. Agents ask Angelo why she thinks the trailers on her farm were searched by authorities. This is the part I'm upset about. We gave them everything they needed. And then, you know, we get halfway through the road and they're down there searching the farm. And then, I'm sorry, what they did to our stuff and our trailers...
is ridiculous all they have done is say hey we want to search how to open the door you know i've got nothing to hide angela wagner is then asked if there was a written custody agreement between jake and hannah may rodin now was there any type of living will or anything like if something were to happen this is what we're you know i have no idea you have no idea do you have that
Here again, James Pilcher.
We saw it in how they circled around with Billy, and we saw the same kind of approach. They obviously had the shoe print stuff. They obviously had the receipt. They obviously had the shell casings. It takes them two to three hours to get to the point where they're presenting that in front of them. The investigator pulls out a document and places it in front of Angelo Wagner. So this right here, this is what I'm going to do. Those are... Hmm. Okay. Okay.
The document appears to be a custody agreement saying that in the event of Hannah Mae Roden's death, that custody of her daughter would go to Jake Wagner. It appears to have Hannah's signature on the form. The detectives tell Angela they found it in her trailer.
This is what we're curious about though, and that it was, do you know who that is? Yeah, that's my mom. That's your mom? So your mom notarized this? Right. But you didn't know about it?
I don't remember it. Okay. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. This is unbelievable to be hearing for the first time. She's speaking so casually and she's talking so cavalierly about her relationship with the Rodins and Billy's relationship with Hannah Mae. And it all sounds kind of cozy. Yeah, we covered in season one of the podcast when Angela Wagner made that public Facebook post right after the murders.
calling Hannah Mae Roden a daughter to her, hoping to catch the monsters who did this. And this interview is like that post on steroids. How do you not crack under the pressure? My biggest takeaway from these recordings is that the Wagner family, at least Angela in this instance, really thought they could outsmart police. The document was notarized by Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb.
The agents continue to press Angela on the forged custody agreement that they found in her trailer. But we're just trying to figure out, this is really interesting to me.
It printed out three weeks before the murder. And you said you don't remember printing it out? No. Okay. I don't. I just, I don't have a document. They did have those documents and they were able to clearly show, hey, they're signed here, but they were clearly printed out here on this day from this website, blank. How do you explain that? They were printed out weeks before the murders, and yet they've got a date two years before. How do you explain this?
So I can't remember. I didn't do it. The agents ask if Jake, Billy, or George Wagner could have done the murders. So I'm asking you. Do you think that my son did it? Or anybody in your family? No. I'm asking you. Okay. Can you tell me definitively now? Yes, I can tell you definitively no. Tell me why. Because I'm out. Tell me why. Because one, my son wouldn't do that. He had nothing against him.
And even though him and Hannah broke up, it wasn't enough for that. Agents show Angela Wagner photos of foot impressions made in blood found at the crime scene. So what we have at the crime lab is they have a database like we do fingerprints. Okay? And what we can do is we can take any shoe tread in the world and identify the manufacturer and the size. Angela Wagner is then showed a pair of shoes.
You don't ever remember buying those for any reason? Or ever seen those? You still don't know your two-and-a-half? I know. No. I mean, I've seen those. I've had some of them. The agents then show Angela a receipt. We have a receipt for those shoes purchased by you. Okay, well, I did purchase them. I got them, but I don't... They already don't remain in the shoe, so they wouldn't wear them. But...
They wouldn't have used them on those because I threw them away. Throw what away? So you remember buying them two weeks before? Yes, I purchased them. I'm telling you, they didn't like them. They wouldn't wear them. You know, they wanted a pair of shoes. They always wear boots. What could you do? I bought them and they didn't like them. I don't know about that.
The agents show Angela a photo of her coming out of Walmart the day she purchased the shoes. It was caught on security camera. But I don't know that you're alone getting back in the car.
No, I was not alone. Where you at? Yeah, where you at? I know the kids were sleeping. Where? I think. Well, they would have been in the car. I didn't leave with David, but I think they were all in the car. I can't remember that one. Okay, two weeks before the homicide, you purchased two pairs of shoes which identically match bloody footprints.
in a crime scene. Okay. That's a lab report from the SHU confirming the match to the tread. This is the database they pulled up with the SHU tread to verify the match. This is a lab report from the casing in the driveway. Agents present another lab report to Angela Wagner. They're an identical match. There were casings recovered from several other crime scenes.
Okay. Okay. Of various caliber. Yeah. Okay. These identically match the shell casings in your driveway.
Okay. The 22 shot cases were fired from the same gun that killed them. There's no way! Angela, it's an identical match. There's no way that they were... There's no way. We have everyone in our ballistics lab, every expert, every firearm expert's review and confirm. It's an identical match. You do know we're not the only ones that shot guns at our house, right?
There's several people down there. Over the time span we've been there, there's been several people down there. Angela, casings are a definitive match on a blueprint. And I understand what you're saying on that. I do. It's a blueprint. When I fire my weapon, my issued gun, and it ejects a round, okay? Yes. And then I use it somewhere else. That's an identical match.
James Pilcher. One thing that strikes me in these interviews and this tape with Angela is how her demeanor changes the minute they show her the stuff about the shoes. The bullets, the shell casings, all of that,
She had an answer for it. But you could almost see, based on her voice change and everything else, and how she starts hammering and pawing and hemming and all of that, the minute they present that, how her demeanor changes. She immediately gets defenses. So huge, huge moment there. Joseph Scott Morgan. They've lived in a bubble. It's very, it's protected from everything else from the outside world.
Suddenly, you know, that bubble is no longer existent. You understand that somebody has penetrated and somebody's penetrated that you don't have any control over.
And you've been able to control all these other people within this environment. And maybe for the first time, fear sets in at that moment. You think you've got all the bases covered. You know, you're running off to Walmart to buy shoes. You're doing all this and you're trying to work your logistical magic here. And suddenly, somebody's penetrated. And suddenly you realize there's actually somebody that's smarter than you that's in the room.
But I want the truth from you, okay? Did something happen? No, I'm not gonna-- I'm aware of nothing that happened. But there's-- but there's-- but you say you're-- you told me, uh, ten minutes ago, you're definitively sure. I am not-- There's too much-- I'm definitive after all this. Even after all that, we have casings that we used at the crime scene-- we have the same gun that was used at the crime scene that was shot at your house.
We have shoes. I guess the bottom line is, we have all this. You can understand how this appears. Yes, I see that you have all this. And this is the, if you're going to have any chance to talk with us about what happened, what knowledge you have, it's now.
Agents stop the interview and the recording.
Here's James Pilcher, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan. I mean, you could see it, right? As soon as they started presenting her the hard evidence, she clammed up. She's like, I need a lawyer. Suddenly, all of that planning that she's done, the purchasing, the controlling of everybody, suddenly that's becoming unraveled. She knows she at least has enough of a survival instinct about her at that point in time. She knows that she needs to reach out for counsel. And I mean quick, because this thing is spinning in a flat spin.
And it's going to turn out poorly for them. Let's stop here for another break.
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After hearing the interview with Angela Wagner in its entirety, John Parker with the defense gets up for cross-examination.
He asks Agent Comisford about Angela Wagner's home in Bethel Hill, where she lived with her family for a time. Were you aware that she was involved in some fraudulent arsons on Bethel Hill? I recall some limited information about there being arson claims. Did you know that one of the houses that burned down that she had built had a marijuana grow room in the basement in her direction? I don't know that I was aware of that at Bethel Hill, no. Were you aware of her...
dog breeding business, that she fraudulently represented the dogs with purebred when they were not. No, I was not aware of that, no. And Angela told you that Jake was devastated at the news of Hannah's death, is that right? Yes, she did say that. And you later learned that Jake is actually the one that shot Hannah and killed her. You learned that, correct? Yes. Fair to say Angela's been very deceitful about many things.
I would say that she's been deceitful about things. Yes. At that point, you know, the defense goes to the BCI agent who conducted the interview asking her, hey, did you ask her about the dog breeding business? Did you ask her about the arsons? Did you ask about the marijuana business? They said, no, we were trying to solve the murder. But they were, I think, trying to sow seeds of doubt about the effectiveness of the investigation.
or at least the effectiveness of the questions that they asked. She asks Agent Comisford if any members of the Wagner family had concerns about the Rodens having custody of the child that Jake and Hannah shared. My understanding is there were concerns on the part of the Wagner family that would become under the custody of the Roden family. So did you know which of the Wagners had those concerns? Specifically, Angela, Jake, George, and Billy.
They're building to this conspiracy that it wasn't just a couple of people, it was the entire family. And this family is such that if one person knows it, all four of them know it. So they're still building to this. They're driving to Alaska, six of them with two little kids in one car.
Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa redirects. And your response was what?
It was my understanding inside the store that she was alone. Yes. When she was outside of the store, was she alone? No. Okay. And what do you base that on? Video evidence. Okay. And specifically, she got into the back of that vehicle? Yes, correct. So, who was with Angela Wagner when she bought the shoes at Walmart? More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios.
Please welcome our Fife County Dogwood Festival Queen,
Lord, I just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Who could have killed eight family members in one night?
I lost my best friend, and I will never be the same because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that comes to mind is overkill. Who was the mastermind? I'm telling you, if they frame us, I'm not sitting in prison. One thing I learned...
The smaller the town, the bigger the secrets. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, A Family Massacre, premiering on NBCUniversal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend, November 24th and November 25th. Please check your local listings, and our hearts are with the Rodens and the Gilley families.
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