Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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bas.com slash bonkers and use the code bonkers at checkout. Are you ready for dumb inception? We saw hypnotic. So you know what that means. Just a sucker punch to honor.
Hello people and hello people. We are live here in Los Angeles.
to talk about a movie that just came out a mere few weeks ago. As millions of people raced to see Book Club 2, a handful of people scattered themselves into a theater to see Robert Rodriguez's Hypnotique. Or Hypnotic. Probably Hypnotic. And here is the plot. It's complicated.
I'll give you what maybe they would say on the poster. Ben Affleck is a sad cop trying to find his little girl who loves braids in her hair. That's where it starts. It goes off the rails very quickly. Yeah.
There's a bank robbery, there's a psychic, there's something called hypnotics, and there's something about Ben Affleck that allows the hypnotics not to affect him. Everyone's turning on everyone until the movie turns on us, the audience. 95 minutes of twists and turns. Some people say you need to watch it again, and I say, why? Why?
But we are going to break down every little twist, every little turn, and get to the bottom of why Ben Affleck does the Batman voice for 45 minutes. But to help me break this down, I'm going to need my co-host. Please welcome to the stage, Jason Manzuka! What's up, jerks? How we doing, Largo? Holy cow. Watching a movie that asks, what if the sad Ben Affleck meme became a character in a movie...
The only thing this movie is missing is a cup of Dunkin' Donuts and a pack of six. Truly, truly, he appears to be miserable in this movie. You know what? But you know who's never miserable? With a twist and a turn, my other co-host, Miss June Diane Raphael! Hello, June, how are you? I'm okay, how are you, Paul? I'm well, thank you for asking. June...
I heard you laugh out loud while watching this movie. Hey, I just said to Jason backstage, and you said it earlier, you said hypnotics.
And I want to spend roughly the next two hours just talking about the language that this movie landed on and has forced us to accept. The division. Well, you want to maybe talk about the constructs that make you see what the hypnotics want you to see, but some people have psychic locks. Yep. Yeah, which is obvious. The hypnotics, worst nightmare. But wait a second. Let's start here, though. Because to be a hypnotic, is it that you are hypnotist?
Who's insane? No, it's as if you're a hypnotist who is, whose power set is this? There is like a, I feel like there's an X-Man who has this power set. Basically, a hypnotic can just by saying it's hot in here without any previous post-hypnotic suggestion or anything convince you it's hot. And so they have, it's almost a superpower.
But no, but the hypnotics in this movie will say it's hot in here and not make you think it's hot, make you think that you are on fire and then cause a traffic accident. Like, they say one thing, it's like, it's the afternoon. Well, quitting time. But what I'm trying to understand, though, is what is the difference exactly between a hypnotist and a hypnotist? Okay, a hypnotist... Yes, yes.
needs a buy-in from the person too. Like they're going to give you a suggestion. They need to work with you prior.
Prior to what? Well, like, you would have to be open to it. Hypnotic, I think the idea of a hypnotic is... Oh, you mean you have to have consent. It's like, you have to have enthusiastic consent. So this movie is like the Manchurian Candidate, right? Except the Manchurian Candidate needs to be reduced to nothing, built back up, and then given a trigger word that they then are... To activate. They are then in the thrall of somebody else. But in this movie, William Fickner can just be like, go kill that guy, and you're like, okie doke. No, well...
William Fichtner could go like this. Your suit jacket's tight. Then the guy would be like, I'm going to go kill that guy. Like it never was the direct thing. I see what you're saying. It was like you got the wrong guy. I see what you're saying. So you're saying that if a hypnotist wanted that to happen, a hypnotist would have to work for multiple sessions.
Oh, a very long time. On that trigger. A hypnotist is doing something. A hypnotic is like the superhero version of a hypnotist. Okay, so it's not like, oh, I'm a psychologist and I'm working through your trauma. No, no. And then now I'm a psychiatrist and I'm giving you a pill. No. They are, they have a truly, I believe, the movie is trying to suggest clumsily so that
That they have like a super, truly a superpower that they can. They are genetically prone to hypnotize you. They are like X-Men. But here, let's hear the explanation that the movie gives. Which one? Which one? Which one? Who is Alice Braga? Poor Alice Braga has to do at least full exposition dumps, all of which contradict each other. Absolutely. And are infuriatingly opaque. Right.
Here is one, maybe the first one. - Are you familiar with the concept of hypnotic constructs? - Oh, can you pause for a second too? Sorry.
One of the other things that's wild about the movie is that the hypnotics, the rules of the movie, even with all the exposition dumps, are infuriating. Not only can the hypnotics compel you to do things or believe things and basically take control of your entire persona or personality, they can also...
convince you of an artificial world that you're currently living in? I want to talk for an hour about the fact that the division is basically a shitty production company full of dog shit. Half of these people in the division are memorizing lines. They look like executives who worked at Target in their red jackets.
And then I was like, no, I'm boycotting this joke. Wait, I do want to break down the reveal, but let's just, can we just listen to this? Sure. Sure. First it's a fortune telling. It's hypnosis. It's not hypnosis. Hypnotics have abilities far beyond anything we have a name for. Hypnotics. People with the ability to actually influence the brain over a psychic bandwidth.
Like telepathy? Telepaths just read the mind. Hypnotics reshape its reality. The guy at the bank. You said he spoke four words to a woman in chin-dressed. Because she was in on it. No. Those were cues. Sound. Voice. Locking eyes. Hypnotics use them to make you see a version of the world that doesn't exist. Your behavior conforms with this hypnotic construct. So everything that you see and do feels perfectly normal.
How is it that you know so much about these hypnotics? Because I am one. Boom. Bam! Affleck is borderline inaudible. This movie borrows and steals so much from Christopher Nolan movies. Yeah. So much so that Affleck's voice is inaudible in the mix. He is basically very close to the brown man. I would say that this...
I did shit myself four times while watching the movie. You got slept on it at first. That one rippled through. I described this movie to myself, because I wrote it down, as the state that you're in
When you are not yet asleep, but not fully awake. It's like that moment where I'm almost asleep. It just has that face. But it's not even that interesting. No. This movie thinks it's fascinating, and it's a moron. Yeah, there's something that really felt like I was back in the pandemic. Like, I felt...
It is a pandemic movie. I know it's a pandemic movie, and just while I was watching it, I was like, it's lockdown. Like, it's lockdown. Just so you know, it isn't truly a pandemic movie. It was going to be shot before the pandemic. They shut down, and when the pandemic...
they went into production. So this is post-pandemic. This might have been, we're wearing some masks on set, but this is, we're back in the world. People are happy. Okay. Although, I think the big switch is, it was supposed to be shot in LA and then they had to shoot it in Texas and maybe that's what we're getting from Ben. Maybe.
Well, I would assume it would be Texas because this is clearly Robert Rodriguez's whole setup, right? This is his, what's it called? He's got a whole studio outside Austin. It's like Rebel Productions, but I mean, Ketchup Productions is producing it. I didn't notice Ketchup Productions was the title card. Well, so you're saying that studio has a bank and that studio has a police department and that studio has a back lot. The division has a back lot.
But here's the crazy thing. Why does the division have a backlog of like a New York City street? Okay, so if you're the division, have you built all of that?
Just for Ben Affleck? Just for Ben Affleck. Over the last four years. Here's the meeting. Here's the meeting. Guys, we're pulling you off of all your active sewing world chaos missions. We've got, everybody's got roles. They are like places, everybody. Places. Everything they do is like they're doing, they're doing like a play. At one point, there were two adults in red blazers just throwing a ball to each other.
That was my... I wrote that down. The basketball guys... But this is what doesn't make sense. For some things, like when they go into the bank, the bank is later revealed to be like two pieces of PVC piping with... With the word bank on it. Right. But then the Mexico City is fully built. Oh, yes.
Like a full, like why did they need to fully build that? And then like the truck is fully real. I had to justify that because it was so crazy. And I felt like, you know what happened? There were some red blazers who were like, I want to spend some time in Mexico City. I want, because they all have to be skilled to a certain degree at set design.
Mental set design. No, the division is like a black ops operation. They're like a... They are mercenaries. I'm just saying as a side hobby. Some of them are artistic. No, I'm with June. I'm with June. Every one of them, those two guys playing basketball, they're going basketball, basketball, basketball. Yeah.
And Ben Affleck's going, oh, basketball. Like, they're imposing their will. Right, so they have to, to some degree, they have to be creative and artistic to get across the semblance of basketball. This is where the movie falls. Okay, one of the things that's very important that we've just jumped straight to and have not explained at all...
is that for so much of the movie, we are watching a police procedural where Ben Affleck and Alice Braga are being chased by Bill Fichtner and The Division and blah, blah, blah. Because his daughter was kidnapped. Yes. And it's all related. It's all related. It's all related. But is it? I mean, because, like, he wants to get, like, his daughter's kidnapped. First of all, he has a relationship with a therapist who calls him by his last name. Rourke. Weird.
Hey, Rourke. I think that that's pretty, like, I think that that seems rough. I imagine. My therapist calls me Zooks. I imagine that he must have introduced himself as Rourke because I do feel like we see that a lot in movies with cops. Like, it's too feminine to have a first name. Yeah. They only go by their last names.
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Just to return to the kidnapping that we open up with, that was the fastest kidnapping I ever did see. Because it didn't exist. Now I know that. Well, he looked at a pinwheel. He looked at a pinwheel and she was gone. The movie is so clumsy because it's so
because the reveal happens so late in the movie that the entirety of the movie you've watched so far is one of these imaginary constructs. Yes. These constructs that the division has created, they're all in his imagination and he's just walking around a parking lot.
in the back of the division where everybody's scurrying around in bright red jackets like fucking assholes. Okay, but why did they have to be in red jackets? No reason. No reason. It actually seems like an aggressive color. They looked like cater waiters. And they looked like an entire fleet of people who were like, do you need to valet?
Why was this choice made? It was the strangest choice because it wasn't scary. It wasn't, it didn't feel like, oh, they're blending into the background somehow. It made them feel less threatening. I was like, these fucking idiots? When River was wearing an eye patch and his crazy gear, I was like, oh, this guy's crazy. When he's wearing his red blazer and red tie, I was like, fuck this idiot.
I feel like this movie was made on a budget and someone said, hey, Robert, we can get you 250 red jackets. He's like, perfect, let's do it. He still has that indie rebel without a crew spirit. Get me red jackets, I'll figure out a way to use them. And here's the thing. There is something... So I guess, you know, what's hard about this movie is you watch it for the first hour and 20 minutes and you're like, ha ha, this sucks. And then...
And then they go, no, we know it sucks. And you suck because you fell for it, asshole. Because you're like, what's this voice Ben Affleck is doing? It's like, it was a choice. He thinks he's in a noir. I know. And then it was like, okay, I guess joke's on me. I'm in a construct. Like, okay.
couldn't get out of or what I could never find my way out of is like why can't why is the division going to these lengths I am confused and I do want I want you to explain this to me but I am confused as to why understand he can't be easily hypnotized okay that's okay why
did they, what do they think they are doing in that construct to get him to reveal where his daughter is? They've put him into a situation where he's a policeman trying to find his kidnapped daughter. Right. So inevitably he will lead them to her by having, by solving the mystery. Finding the clues. Okay. So when he goes to find that clue, that's a real clue.
clue that he actually put in a bank? But where's the bank that he put that in? No, see, what I think what they're trying to do is... I know that it's in the construct! No, no, no, you're real. You're real. Right there, that is not... That is a parking lot at the division. But in real life, but in real life, not a construct, you know we're all screaming. This chest of drawers is just a guy in a red jacket. I know. Ha ha ha ha!
And when he's like, he's putting a key in a guy's midsection and the guy's like, the movie I wish, I want, you know what? Gauntlet Throne, Robert Rodriguez. I want a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead style movie from the point of view of the division.
I want to see all these scenes, but with no artifice. Okay, because what we know to be true... Wait, I want to hear you finish this thought, yeah. Okay, so what we know to be true as people not in a construct, we know that Ben Affleck, as a hypnotic, has placed a trigger for himself in the Bank of Austin.
Correct? Well, yes. So can I just... No? I don't think so. I have an idea. Wait, June, hold on. I have an idea. Let me... I think I can... See, what's going on in the beginning is he believes he's chasing Bill Fichter, who is...
essentially standing in for him. They're saying he has erased his memory and Bill Fichter has put this thing in there. So I think what they've done is they followed him around. They found one piece, which was the photo. Where did they find that? They say it at one point. Who remembers? Oh, that's right. That's the daughter's trigger.
At the exposition dump. Okay, so there's a final exposition dump. Thank you. Because at the end of the movie, everybody's like, wait, what the fuck just happened? Right.
And so there's a full, like, I'm going to say nine and a half minute exposition dump that explains the movie you just saw, which was this. At a certain point, Ben Affleck and Alice Braga are like, our daughter is being turned into a weapon by the division because she can control people. Great. We have to save her from this. The only way to do that is...
Is to kidnap her, hide her, erase our own memories. Yes. But we're going to have to wait three plus years. Because she's going to get powerful. For her to get powerful enough and in control of her powers. At which point, she will begin a series of events that lead to the events of this movie. Wait, wait, wait. She will? Yes, by sending that picture. Because she is the most powerful. She's sending the picture. Okay, so that picture, that Polaroid that he...
Is the domino that starts to unlock his memory. Okay, so you're telling me that the girl from that safe house. The little girl. The little girl. Who's now four years older. Has put that photograph in. Lana Del Rey photograph. In a bank vault? No, no, no, no. The bank vault is a part of the construct. I think she sent it to the division.
Yes. She sent it to the... That's such a bad idea for... No. No, because it starts... She wants them to inevitably come to her. It's the first domino, so she starts the chase. She's basically ready to destroy the division. And that's why you have that beautiful moment at the end. I'm both in the construct and I'm now out of the construct. I got it. By the way, this is you and June are reenacting Robert Rodriguez pitching this. Yeah. Yeah.
And somebody being like, well, I don't know, maybe when I read the script. Doesn't matter. No script. We don't got a script. It's all in a backyard.
The whole movie takes place in the backyard. What about the safety? But there are no banks. By the way, can we just look at what the hypnotics have done? They have created violent uprisings at Shake Wall Street. They are anti-government forces. I don't know that they've done any of this. It says coordinated attack. This is Rivers' version of, he says he's reporting on them. He's part of them. He is a hypnotic bank. But I think part of it is half truth.
half lie, right? Like, no, he's all lie. I think you're in a construct. I want to just say this. And I know, cause we can pick apart a lot of this and it's the fault of the movie for not making sense. We're trying to make sense out of it. And the movie is constantly being like, don't look too close at that. Look over here. Look over here. Right. If you say it quick enough, you might just forget it. Like you might not question why does, uh,
Ben Affleck say, I want to get a safety deposit box. They go in. He's like, oh, I forgot my paperwork. All right. No, that's not what happens. He's, I want to get a safety deposit box. They go in. The guy says, I forgot my keys. But Ben Affleck had stolen his keys so that he could open the safety deposit box. This is the division, again, getting him to this place. To just get to the spot. I understand they have to get there, but there are some things that are clunky throughout. Oh, yes, the whole movie is.
Right, like it's not a smooth operation. The whole movie is right in. And you have to imagine though, Paul, if you are a hip, I know it seems clumsy, but if you're a hypnotic, your job is not actually to like create a movie, a set, a do your acting. Like I think they're doing a wonderful job. Well, and that's why I want to tip my hat to some of the odd choices. There's like one point where he's recollecting how him and his wife were so distraught when his child was kidnapped.
And figuring prominently in the frame is just a margarita glass, like a comically large one. Like, it's like, oh, I can't believe our daughter's missing. Two frozen margaritas, please. Use the Jimmy Buffett machine, please. Yeah, yeah. I want to be crystal clear, just so I think everybody's on the same page. Yes. The totality of this movie takes place at two locations. Oh.
The division's back lot. Yes. And the farmhouse, what looks like a quarry or something, that's the only two places people really are ever. Yes. Yeah, that's true. There is no banks. There's no cities. There's no Mexico. There's no elevator. There's no elevators. There's no apartments. But why does the elevator have to have like little one button? A big button.
What do you need and what do you not need? Why? You can create a fucking train yard with fucking cars and you can't just imagine an elevator button? I also, like, what I would love is to have seen, like, all of our hypnotics, the red blazers, like, get to decide, like, are they cast in those roles? Do they...
How did they lose him? Do they have to audition? I want to be his partner. Make me his partner. I want to be the woman who gets in a bra and runs across the street. That woman was incredible. First of all, it would have been great if they revealed the head of the hypnotics was Max from Rushmore, the main character. He's like, this is his main... You know how he used to build those sets? What's really... That would be very funny. Because he was wearing a red blazer too, right? And Rushmore...
What I really wanted, what really blew my mind was so much of the movie you spend primarily with William Fichtner, but then also Alice Braga, with two people who are consistently using this hypnotic power.
A power they have over people to command them, to get them to kill each other, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And so you're like, okay, I live in a world in which at least very clearly this is a power set that exists. But once the twist happens, all those people that have been killed are now alive. So nobody was hypnotized by a hypnotic. Bill Fichtner didn't successfully do any of that stuff.
All of those examples of what hypnotics can do were fake. Wow, Jason. And that really... No. No. Yes. Hold on. That was all acting. That was people acting. But yes, I understand. But it's like...
It's like saying death of a salesman is fake. Yes, but salesmen exist and then they get depressed that they don't sell enough stuff and they kill themselves. Like, that is true. So I think what they're doing is writing a play based on their own experiences. Wait, whoa, whoa. Can we rewind that? What?
Hypnotics are creating a play, but it's based on the things that they can and can't do. Like the way that we wrote the play, Death of a Salesman. A salesman is a concept that we all understand that exists. And sometimes you'll get depressed if you don't sell enough stuff. And then you'll kill yourself. Paul, what you're saying, it's a little different, if I may, than Death of a Salesman.
We all understand what the American dream is, which is what that play is about. We all have an understanding. So when we watch that, we all understand whether we're salesmen, whether we're anything. Yes, whatever we want to do in our lives, we understand the pain of not being able to take care of our families, that the world, feeling outside of a world moving faster than we can and that we can't keep up.
And making those difficult decisions and being, having personally failed ourselves. I don't know. I haven't seen it. That's different from like, we don't have a concept. I haven't seen it. He just said he hasn't seen it. What the hell's going on?
What I'm saying, Paul, is that we all understand the idea of the American dream. We all have that cultural understanding. We don't have a cultural understanding and an understanding of what it is to be hypnotic. So what Jason is saying is absolutely true. And June, I do hear what you're saying and I appreciate you explaining it to me, but I think you're missing my point, which is this. Death of a salesman. He's going to say the same exact thing. Let him go. Let him go.
Can he get a spotlight? Death of a Salesman is a play for who?
the American audience or worldwide audience who understand what the American dream is. Ben Affleck is a hypnotic. This is a play for one person. He understands what the hypnotics are. So the way that an American audience understands the American dream, that play is for them. This play is for a hypnotic. He understands, oh, right, I can mentally control this shit. Like, so, yes, Willem Fichtel is not actually... Wait, wait, wait.
William Fichter's not actually doing it, but he can do it because in that reality, he's just kind of going like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he's triggering his mind. Remember, remember. It's remember time. I agree. That's the T-shirt. It's remember time. It's remember time. Oh, it's remember time somewhere. You want a drink? It's remember time somewhere. My point, though, Paul, is...
A movie that spends so much time with so many people exhibiting a superpower that you then say at the midway or further than the midway point, actually, they've never done any of this. They can. Believe me, you. They can. But everybody we've seen in their thrall is acting like they're in their thrall. Now I can't believe this, but I have a different theory. Okay.
Not yours and not yours. Paul, you're just absolutely wrong. First of all, that makes no sense. What do you mean? The idea that they would create a movie for one of the characters in the movie? That's what they did do. That's the construct. I understand that that's what happened. But what I am saying is I believe that everybody in the construct, every red blazer...
is probably actually being hypnotized within the construct. So, thank you. I don't think so. Well, I do.
Because I do think they're killing themselves, and I do think that they are getting erased multiple times. So if you are a red blazer and you're there, like, your mind is not your own. So Bill Fichter is controlling everybody? I don't think so. No, definitely not, because Alice Braga has the same... Look, the reason why...
Ben Affleck has the power of a hypnotic, right? Alice Braga has the power of hypnotic. They fuck. They make a baby who's super powerful. That's the whole thing. So everyone in that red blazer is a hypnotic. This is a small grouping of people who put on plays, also create Brexit and do whatever. It's not that small of a group. But that's my thing is I don't think they are ever –
This is why the movie's bad. I feel crazy. This is why the movie's bad. Let's jump back before all the events of this movie. Let's say prior to the events of this movie when Ben Affleck and Alice Braga are themselves agents within the division. Right. Okay.
What is the division doing then? Are they bringing people in the Mexico City back lot to do stuff? No, no, no, no, no. They're out in the world, James Bond-ing stuff into chaos. But they lost their most powerful weapon. Correct. The girl, right? So they have to take a break from all of them going out. They're like, all right, everybody, come back. Come back. This is what I'm saying. They're taking all these field agents out. It's like the CIA being like, we're pulling you back. Here is a script.
You're going to be a police partner. You're going to be a bank teller. But it probably takes 12 hours. They've done it like 12 times. They've done it 12. This is a fucking nightmare. Here's my question. It's been years. The girl aged four years. No, no, no, no. This is what they've been
four years. I know. No, I think they started doing this when she got the when they got the photo. Yes, but they've been in pre-production for three years. These motherfuckers are building sets. They're learning lines. They're auditioning for the I don't want to be the teller. Can't I be the partner?
Why does Nick... They're clearly playing multiple roles. Why does Nick have to say... Why do they have to say the same lines every time? Why does he have to say, like, did you wipe your shoe before you got in the golf cart? They don't even have clear... But yet the van... But the van is real.
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Did anybody go back and rewatch to see if any of the same actors were being used as background in the other scenes? Like the diner people. We had hundreds of people in Mexico City. Right. Hundreds. No, because everyone can construct a couple more. No. Pull up Mexico City, please, Paul. Hold each other by the waist and that's a train.
Well, that's the thing is, that's the thing is, they can get you to imagine and there are no rules, and that's what's hard, even though there's so much exposition. They can build a construct, they can build a house, but they can't put people inside of it. They need breathing, living people to be in. They can't make you imagine a conversation with someone. You have
to have the conversation. They can make you imagine the where. Well, that's why this makes it even more confusing because Jack Yerl Haley seems to be an ally who then is revealed to be Bill Fichter. Like, it would have been better if Bill Fichter didn't reveal that he was, he killed him.
Well, but they figure it out. Alice Braga figures it out and she's like, wait a minute. But it wouldn't have been better for the story of Ben Affleck's character. Like, a real movie, that would have been cool to figure it out. But,
what the hypnotics are doing seems like, Oh, why are you upending your own shit? Like, you know, it's really confusing. Okay. So let's talk about the post credit scene. Yes. Because post credits. So at many points in the movie, people seem to be jumping into each other's bodies and just taking over physical space.
And then at points other people are jumping into each other's bodies and are right there when another person was there. Now, once we realize what's going on, as much as we can understand it, it's clear that, oh, that was all a part of a construct and they were just hopping in and hopping out to their parts. Except for that last scene.
So in the last scene, we see the dad is on, is walking. And then all of a sudden the scene changes and the camera moves and we realize he's actually dead. Now, my question is this, that moment, what, we are no longer in the construct. So how are they switching bodies? Okay. So they, okay. So there is no body switching in this movie.
It's just mental. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Full stop. There is no body switching. What there is is masking.
They are convincing you I look like the person you think. We're having a conversation, but I am, I look like Jason. Yes. The hypnotics are using their power to make you think you're seeing a different person. Okay. But in the construct, in the people in the red blazers. No, no, construct, take that construct out. Because that's what's, they don't need to be in a construct.
The construct is just for Ben Affleck. Yes. We are only ever in the construct in the movie. No. When are we out of the construct? In the post-credit scene, for one. In the backlog. Okay, so that's my question. No, I guess the idea is this. Hypnotics create a construct. So if I wanted to create a construct for you that I was Jason and you were talking to Jason, that would be a construct that I, the hypnotic, would be creating for you. So...
You don't need to be anywhere. You don't have to be in the back lot. I am all powerful. These people, the 36 of them, are all around the country doing that all the time. It's like, oh, I thought I was in a bathroom. No, you're at Walt Disney World. You know, it's like that. So basically, Bill Fichtner has gotten here first, killed Jackie Earl Haley, but he's... This scene, yes. This scene. And then when they arrive, he's making it appear to them as if he is...
But hold on, Jason. He's not in Jacky Earl Haley's body. He's just, it's as if he's wearing a mask of this person. How do you know that he's killed him? He says it. Yeah. But you'd have to also, but you'd also have to say...
This is clumsy. To be clear, this is not... What you'd have to say is Bill Fixer got there first, but then Alice Braga also... I don't think that you need to kill somebody to take over. I think Alice Braga can be on the other side of the door and do that fist pump and then become the woman who makes the tamales. Oh yeah, who's then in a closet. That I have questions about. I don't know how she moved. How did she get her in the closet right in front of Jackie Earl Haley?
She was making tamales? She had laundry. And he said there's tamales in the fridge. And I don't think Jackie Earl Haley is making tamales. But when she was in the closet and they opened the door, it looked like she was making... Once again, this is all construct. She's making a sandcastle? Like this? She said that she's on a beach making a sandcastle. Alice Braga has said she's on... Again, that's in a construct. They're in a construct. That's where the movie is a real fuck you. So now we're cutting to the...
Because the end, we're not in a construct. Correct. No, no, no. Everything is a construct. Anytime hypnotic uses their power, it is a construct. No, I don't think that's true. What? I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true either. Because to say that would mean, you are implying that that last scene, they are making a construct for no one.
For who? For us, the audience at home? Yeah, that's part of it. Part of it is that they're cheating all the time in the movie for us, the viewer. They're cheating the rules of the movie so that we don't... The movie is joyless in the sense that each time I was like, oh, I guarantee it's this, and it was, I was like, yeah, because it's dumb. It's not satisfying. It's not satisfying to be ahead of it or figure it out. But do you believe that a construct... I believe that hypnotic
This is my understanding of it. A hypnotic
creates a construct that you believe a certain reality. They rewrite your reality. That's what the hypnotic's power is. Okay, so I see what you're saying, and I think you're right. It's just terminology. I think I thought of construct as this reality that they occupy, that they are inside of, but I do think the hypnotics can convince you you are someone else, make you sign something, walk away. I don't think that's a construct. I think that's just...
a hypnotic's power. They are able to convince you of something else. The construct is the immersive world they have him inside of. Okay. But I think the two are absolutely right. So we can tomato, tomato, but we can agree that hypnotics can do multiple things. They can make you do anything. They can make you see anything and they can make you believe that you're in a place that you're not.
In the sense that the young girl, the most powerful, the second most powerful is Bill Fichter, right? But the most powerful girl has made them believe that they flew their helicopters to a small farmhouse and saw this. Now, that's not a construct because they didn't build a fake farmhouse. They were just in a...
abandoned house where she was living. Well, I think it is a construct. Oh, so they need to build... The construct is like, it's almost like the AI or something. Okay, so whenever they want to do a bigger... What's it called? A mind palace. Okay, so whenever they want to do a bigger... It seems like a construct you need some scaffolding. Some real life scaffolding.
And then you can make people really believe they're somewhere. Yeah. That's what I think a construct is. I think that's it. It's really like you are putting a skin on the reality and saying, I'm this person or you're in this other place. Yeah. When in reality, what was interesting, it's a real, it's almost a total recall.
This movie is almost a total recall in the what's real and what's not. Is he really, is he still at recall? It's like the Matrix. I was trying to see if anyone had written anything about constructs and hypnotics. No, surprisingly. Why would they?
But so to, I'm sorry to head back to the last scene again. The Matrix, everybody is in the pod of goo, but they are like, oh, I'm working. I'm going to the club. Someone's knocking on my door. The boss needs something. That's why I loved when, the movie would have made so much sense, so much more sense if
if Ben Affleck was only in the white room. Right. If he only exists in the white room and everything else is a construct for him to mentally engage with, that's not what this movie does. This movie says we need him up and...
and moving around. And as a result, we have to build an infrastructure around him. I don't know if I ever made you go on this thing, but it's like that Star Wars VR thing where you put on these VR goggles and you have to fucking fight Darth Vader and you're walking over fire pits
But if you sneak a peek under your VR glasses, you're just in a little room. And there's this little squishy part, and it feels hot. That would make more sense. And you're right. The Matrix is the absolute gold standard of what that is. This is a movie that is essentially a simulation. A construct is a simulation. But the human computer is controlling it. Yes, yeah. The mind. Death of a salesman.
And that's the death. Boy, and cut all of what we just did out. This is really something. Yeah. When you think about actually how much work went into so little, like the movie is driving and car chases and gunfights and bank robberies and it's like full and rooftop executions and all of this adventure. And then when you realize all of it just took place in a hundred square foot building.
Back, the parking lot in the back of an industrial facility run by The Division where everybody's an actor. I was like, I can't handle this. There's so many, I wrote, there's so many sets and so much acting. It makes this movie and The Division seem absurd. The Division immediately became not a threat to me when I realized most of what they were doing was bad acting.
I was like, oh, these guys aren't bad at all. These guys are going to be easily beaten. Between the blazers and their acting and the fact that they just exist on set. See, I actually thought they were pretty good actors. I did too.
But, like, that whole idea, when they put the young girl, when she was, I guess, how old do we want to say she is now? Seven? I think she's around seven or eight now. Okay, so say she was, like, three or four when they did that, like, that remembering where she was in that room and she had all the dominoes lined up and she's like, plink, plonk, plink, and everyone's like, you know, like, their hands are going up, they're falling over, she's killing people with her mind. Like, that whole thing...
Everyone's like, whoa, she's so good at three. We had to go to the back lot for a couple months and work on our characters. Like, I feel like that's like, you know, like that's like, it's like watching Michael Jordan. You're like, that's basketball. Like, that's what... But what she's doing is not acting. Like, that's where the disconnect is for me. I don't...
I don't think the division is about acting. Except for this one case where they need information from Ben Affleck. But it is. It's all about acting, though. When they're doing Brexit, when they're creating Brexit, they are acting. But no, they're not. They're not acting there. It's not real. Then what is the division doing? We don't know. We don't know. That's where the movie's a failure.
Do you guys think? No. Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul. They're not doing Brexit by, I hope you don't think that they're sowing chaos worldwide by creating these little sets and doing it that way. That's not what's happening. No, I think they would go up to like Donald Trump and be like, hey. Yes, that's with their mind control. Yeah.
But they're not acting there. They're doing their hypnotic work. This acting stuff is like they're doing despite the fact that they have no desire to do it. Draw the line. Draw the line for me because here's what I'm saying. If you are, okay. If you are Willie Loman and Paul is Hap. You're Willie Loman. Paul is Hap. Paul, you know the plague. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. Go ahead. What were you going to say? I was going to say this. The idea that they can do masking, in my mind, means that they're always acting.
Because if I'm telling you that you're talking to Jason, but you're talking to me, I'm acting like Jason. Yes, I'm using parts of your memory, but I'm also going to go, you know, like I'll use my body and I'll like, I'm in my body. Here's what I'm going to say. Here's what I'm going to say. I disagree. And again, we're parsing.
very thinly a movie that is clunky and clumsy. So we're doing work for the movie that I don't think the movie has really examined. That being said, I don't think the hypnotics are acting at all. They're making you think that...
hypnotic by placing there in your mind Charles Xavier style making you think you're having a conversation with June even though I'm the one doing it I'm not acting like I don't have to act like June
I'm in your head. So you're just triggering her memories, okay, and you're manipulating the memories, okay. Yes. To be what you want them to be. You can make anybody do, when a hypnotist. So they're all Charles Xavier. That's different. They're not Mystique. The difference is I don't know who all those. Oh, yeah, good, yeah, good, good, good, yes, yes. Okay. I don't know about any of that, but I know that, but I know that
They are, though, that is their job as hypnotics. However, Ben Affleck can't be hypnotized. Well, recently, because he has a mental block. Until recently, that's right. But I guess what I'm saying is they must show up as actors in that construct. So they are not all of the red. This is where it gets so slippery. All of the red blazers are performing. Just like Death of a Salesman.
I need to go to the audience here. I need to hear what the audience has to say about this. I don't know what we've talked about. This movie is the kind of movie that we spend all of our time arguing what it is rather than, like, we've talked about zero plot. Well, because it's a movie that actively tells you if you have any issues with the plot, it doesn't matter if it didn't happen. And that sucks. I'm going to get to a bunch of questions, but
I just want you to put your hand up if you think you can succinctly explain it better than what we have done. Okay. Here we go. Your name again? Jose. Jose. Okay. This is your chance. It's your moment. Don't be nervous. He's going... I'm not even gonna... Let's just hear him out and then we can... Take your time. Take your time. Here we go. Go for it. Okay. So they have to start... How dare you! laughter
So every time they restart, they have to start from base zero where he doesn't remember anything. So he doesn't remember how powerful he is, but they have to trigger him to remember that he does have this power. So that's why they have these small little instances to break with the continuity of the scenario that they're creating. Oh, so they need the moment of this.
the Mexico switcheroo because, oh, he's getting his powers back. Yeah, so then he starts to remember that he has powers so then he can start turning and then gaining power so that he can tell them where the daughter is. Respectfully, Jose, I think the... With so much respect, Jose. So much. With so much respect. The division...
doesn't want Ben Affleck to remember he's a hypnotic because then that's closer to him realizing, oh, I hit her and I don't want you to find her. They want him to think he's just a detective finding his daughter. But how could he ever find her? He has the one clue, which is the photo. But that clue is going to lead him back to his actual reality, which is that he hit her. Which is the daughter's, which is his own plan.
Which is Ben Affleck's plane. All right, next question. Wait, is Oshoni here from Discord? Did you already ask? Did you already ask? No, you didn't. Okay. This is a good question. I think it feeds right into this. All right. You submitted your question on Discord, so I could know that this is going to be a good question. Here we go. Go for it. Yeah, so what would cause more childhood trauma to a young girl?
And she seems like she knows exactly what's going to happen that day. He's like, are you ready? And she's like, yup.
I'm wearing my black and white polka dot domino dress and I'm ready to cause a bunch of people to kill each other. I like when Ben Affleck looked at his partner and the guy's like...
What a terrible way to go. But then, I thought that was terrible, but then Bill Fichter shoots himself in the belly. And what's sad is that that's actually Jeff Fahey, which is heartbreaking. So sad. But when did the switch happen? We'll never know. This movie is bolstered so much by an incredible supporting cast of some of our greatest character actors. Bill Fichtner, Jackie Earl Haley, Jeff Fahey. This is home
Home run scene. Obviously we have opinions about this movie, but there are people out there with a different opinion. It is now time, I hope, for second opinions. Does anyone have a second opinion theme? You got it. All right, there we go. All right, what's your name, sir? I'm Hassan. Hassan, welcome. Okay. I've been a fan since I was in the eighth grade, and I'm 25 now. Wow. I love it. Thank you.
Thank you for entertaining me half-heartedly. The best. I am so excited. What? That is chilling. Wow. I can't imagine listening to a podcast in eighth grade. Ladies and gentlemen, Hasan! I believe I'm a cop But in reality I'm really not Think about my daughter every night and day Oh God, where did she go away?
Oh wait, I just had a thought. She's not kidnapped at all. I had her hidden away for this very special day where I can kill the division. And that is my second opinion. Yeah! Hassan! Hassan! Hassan! Hassan, a listener since eighth grade.
Comes up with a second opinion song on the spot. We should be required reading, required curriculum, not that stupid death of a salesman. All right. Do you have one? You don't want to follow it? That's okay. You can bail if you want. But we'll support you regardless. Let's do it. How old were you when you started listening, gray-haired man?
I don't know. 35? 35? Gross. What's your name? My name is Ned. Ned. All right, Ned. I'm excited for you. Ned or Nick? Ned. Ned, thank you. Ned, I'm excited for this because the amount of...
self-awareness that you felt like, I don't know if I can follow that means that you're a good person. Most people don't care. Like, fuck, Mike, let's go. So I wrote three verses and six choruses. Let's do this. So already, Ned, you're good in my book. So obviously people have a different opinion. It's now time for second opinions. Please welcome Ned. Ben Affleck can't recall a single thing at all.
Like his power Alice Braga tries to help But she's an easy act to About everything Oh, Liz and a thick nerd Dominoes, reambacks, jackets This is just scanners without exploding heads And we don't care We don't care
But maybe someone thought that this movie was genius just because it was made by Robert Rodriguez. But we don't care. We don't care. And why did I decide to spend $20? Maybe this movie hypnotized all of us. I'm like, wow. We need a second opinion now. All the salesmen are dead. Yeah!
Give it up for Ned! Amazing! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned! Ned!
I just want to be at, like, I wish the movie had featured a scene at Division HQ where they were like, I think we should put a song in there. Wait, what? I don't know, maybe it goes to a karaoke bar. Maybe there's new music out. I could sing. Karen, is this just because you want to sing?
I would have loved to see the people who played the newscasters. All right. We combined some reviews. Some are from Amazon. Some are from Letterboxd, my favorite social media site here. But I'll give you the stats so far. Like I said, this is a pretty new movie. Right now on Amazon, there are 109 reviews, and 49% are five-star. All right. So there we go. And the average rating on Letterboxd of 12,000 reviews is...
52% are five star. All right, so there we go. And this one started by Musa Chaudhry. I know this movie doesn't deserve five stars, but this dumb movie made me cry. Cry? Because of its genuine sincerity as it unravels a mystery that doesn't matter to unlock the emotional truth of the human experience and crashes with that
filmmaking process in ways that it just did something to my soul. Rodriguez is having a blast as he piles on twist upon twist, which he distorts reality on a whim and then waits for a house of cards to topple. It's a meathead inception, but I prefer this low-budget, weirdly textured attempt over Nolan's self-serious pretension to...
I love this. Five stars. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
That person is right in the sense that I don't think Robert Rodriguez is examining it at all to the degree that we have tried to do tonight. He wrote it in one weekend and was like, let's shoot it. Frank Post... In the parking lot behind my house.
Frank Post 611 writes, this movie was terrific from start to finish. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. The film was confusing, but you'll understand it by the end. The plot twists are crazy and unexpected. It was so well written. The acting was superb. I suggest watching it high. Yes.
I can't disagree with that. There's a mid-credit scene that affects the entire movie. And my friend and I were the only ones in our theater who saw it. Five stars. And then this one, this one from Eagles fan. It says, this was a really good movie. Very unexpected plot twists and turns. I do wish it was a bit longer, though.
I believe there will be a sequel. Five stars. Wow. And then this one, I just want to read the title. I expected less, but I was given more. Stand up claps. Five stars. Wow. There it is. I mean, people love this movie. I'll give you just a little bit of quick research on it. This movie came out May 11th, 2023. The budget was $65 million. No way.
Where? Ben Affleck. Opening weekend, $2 million. I'm serious. Where is that money? Computer screens. Worldwide gross, $6 million so far. Uh,
A little rough, a little rough. The screenplay was something that Robert Rodriguez came up with in 2002. So it was one of his favorite stories and just came back to it. And in some of the translations of this movie in different countries, dormant mutiny, construction, mind hunting, hypnotic attack, and manipulators. Those are some of the titles. And I guess the question is to both of you, would you recommend it?
It's something to see, all right? I mean, it's $20. Paul and I purchased it separately. What? You bought it too? We talked about this last night. I only didn't rent it because if we both... You were on a phone call. I had to start watching it. And I had only my computer with me. And yeah, I bought it.
We're on a family share plan. I know because I pay for your date line. Hey! I don't know why all of a sudden everything you buy, I have to buy on my credit card. I see every housewives. I'm like, we have Lulu. We have Peacock. We can step out if you want. The movie was so shocking to me that I do recommend it because it was, I couldn't believe, when those golf carts came out,
I laughed so hard. I was literally... Because it just... It's one thing to reveal it's on a back line. It's another thing to put all those people in golf carts. Like...
And red blazers. And red blazers. But you can't not look a fool in a golf cart. There's no way to ride in one where you're just foolish. Especially when you see the first scene where there are cops and his partner pulls up and he's like, hey, did you wipe your shoes? And they're doing cop banter. And then you see the whole scene play out again except his partner's in a red blazer and they're in a golf cart. And you're like, you're telling me an hour into this movie it's less cool?
Yeah, it was just hilarious. So I would recommend it for that reason. It's pretty shocking. Yeah. I am a fan of Robert Rodriguez. Me too. I was about to say this as well. Me too. Really incredible and as someone whose entire career has unfolded during the period of time in which I was paying attention to movies, you know? And so his whole story from making...
the El Mariachi and all that stuff. His, his story is interesting. The El Rey network, the store, the show he had where he interviews directors. I love it. Um, I think he's an incredibly interesting, incredibly inventive, uh, filmmaker. And there's a lot of that at play in here. And that's what makes it worth. I feel like all the effort we've gone to, to try and figure this movie out is because there is a movie in this movie. Yeah. There's something here. Well, just so,
Forgive me, Robert Rodriguez. It's so dumb that it just, I couldn't get, it just is like insurmountable to the slightest degree. But boy, I had fun watching it. And I 100% think people should watch it. And I'll just say this too, just to go on the Robert Rodriguez train. I agree with everything you said. I think that the interesting thing about him is he is actively, actively
not taken a part in the Hollywood system at all. Right? And the movies he makes are in the vein of like a Roger Corman weird, like he's still doing the weird shit. And I feel like that's, but he's doing it on his own terms. And I do love it. And he's made some great kid movies that are awesome. Speaking of, the connection between tonight and last night, do we know it? Julie Corky is the star of Spy Kids. Yes. Yes.
A Robert Rodriguez directed series. So yeah, like there is a connection there. But I think, yeah, the kid stuff he does is interesting. He Can Be Heroes is legitimately great. I think Alita Battle Angel was really good. Oh, I love that. I think Robert Rodriguez is fascinating. And this movie, even though we spent all of this time trying to make it make sense, it still was a blast. I wrote in my notes so often, ha, ha, ha, this is fun.
I also feel like I'm having a great time. I don't know if Robert Rodriguez smokes weed, but I will say this. I loved Alita Battle Angel. I saw that in a half-empty theater in IMAX and 3D, and I was like, yes! But I could see him directing that and looking around it, like scaffolding and being like, what if that was a movie? And that's what it feels like. The guy who directed Alita Battle Angel going like,
Yeah. Whole thing. So here's, I just want to say, I want to say one thing about the back lot before we wrap it up, because, okay. So the back lot, some of the scaffolding and the infrastructure there, it said like police bank, but not all of those fonts and signs corresponded to what he saw. So were those signs just for our actors? Maybe. Maybe.
Or honestly, what it really is, is for us, the audience at home. So much of what's being shown to us is not for the people in the movie. It's for the audience at home, whether to misdirect you or whether to clue you into and make a connection that the movie itself hasn't made. What a dangerous game to play for an hour and 20 minutes to be like, you're watching a shitty movie. Yeah. Like...
Wait, is this it? Are you about to show the... I don't have that stuff. You don't have any backlog? No, sadly no. But yeah, I mean, that's the dangerous game in a time of streaming just to be like, I'm going to wait for an hour or so.
before I let them in on this. Because there's not even like a matrix-y like... That reveal, it happens in the middle of Act 2 and it absolutely should have happened at the beginning of Act 2. Yeah. That reveal so that the rest of the movie was a sprint...
because what basically happens is it happens so late as to when they put him back under, he immediately comes back out. Right. And we don't get to enjoy a version of him. Him figuring it out. What's that? Him figuring it out and trying to rescue himself from that reality. And there would have been 20 pages. Imagine 20 pages where he's
Oh, it's like lucid dreaming where he's aware of the construct inside of the construct and monkeying with it. That's a, that's a set piece that would be really interesting, but the movie doesn't do that. And that's too bad because I would have liked, but that's also a lot of acting for Ben Affleck to do. And that's our show. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for coming out.
That's our show live from Largo. If you want to remember the show for the rest of your life, well, then head on over to tpublic.com to get your own hypnotic T-shirt. That's right. We made one from that live show. It's a sad Ben Affleck with the title.
It's remembering time. You can pick that up right now. It is on sale. Check out all of our designs, which can be made into coffee mugs and T-shirts and hoodies and whatever you want. TeePublic, they've been doing us right for a very long time. And a couple of big announcements. You know that How Did This Get Made is going on the road. The Balcony Monster Tour is on the East Coast in August, but we've added a show. We've added a show to TeePublic.
New Jersey. We've never been in New Jersey. We're going to be live in Red Bank on August 11th. I want to say something to everybody out there in Jersey. We are finally coming to Jersey. We haven't even gone to Long Island. We respect you more than Long Island. And June and I are from Long Island. But if you have any connections to the Smod Castle cinemas, let me know because maybe we can figure out a way to screen the movie that we are going to do live.
at that show before. We can have a little Smodcast synergy or something. I don't know. Get your tickets now. They are selling out very quickly. One Boston show is already sold out. We have a special guest for the 8th. That's right. A special Boston guest.
You don't want to miss it. Also, how did this get made all star? So what I'm saying is this come to one show, come to all the shows. Every night is completely different. We can't wait to see you there. We have so much in store. We don't even know yet. That's how much we have in store. Anyway.
Make sure that you are following us all on social media. That's where we release all the good info. And you follow me on YouTube to see all the Matinee Monday information that you need. And we'll have an update about Stitcher Premium very shortly. Right now, we're just getting our ducks in a row. I am bummed that Stitcher Premium is not there. I don't know what we're going to do with our back catalog yet. But as soon as we have an official answer, I will let you know.
And now let's get into our big thank yous. I'm talking about the amazing producerial work of Scott Sonney, Molly Reynolds, and our movie-picking producer, Averill Halle. People, they make the trains run, and we love them. So we will see you next week for Last Looks. And until then, bye for now. I'm just gonna be Averill Halle
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