Matinee Monday: Drop Dead Fred LIVE! (w/ Casey Wilson)
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bas.com slash bonkers and use the code bonkers at checkout. It's like Fight Club, but for kids. We saw Drop Dead Fred, so you know what that means. Hey everybody. Now it's time for... A-G-B-T-G-M. Hey everybody. Now it's time for...

Hello people of Earth! And hello people of Los Angeles! We are here in Clipper Nation. I am your host, Tall John Shearer.

And I could not be more thrilled to be here tonight to talk to you about a movie called Drop Dead Fred. A movie that has caused the most controversy that we've ever had in the How Did This Get Made universe. When this was announced, people were like, how could you? How dare you? I never have been more insulted in my life.

But you know what? After watching the movie, I think you're all wrong. The movie is simply about a... I don't even know, I would say not young, not old, like a 26-year-old woman whose imaginary friend comes back to torture her. That's all you really need to know if you've not seen the movie. And it's dark. It's very dark.

And when you think it got really dark, they save some shit at the end to be like, gets you. Like, whew. We're fucking watching Who's a Raid Virginia Woolf? I don't know. But tonight, to dissect this movie, we have an amazing group of people. Of course, my excellent co-host. Please welcome Mr. Jason Manzoukas! What's up, John? Welcome, Jason. Thank you, John. Um...

Drop dead Fred. Did you see it in the theater? Never seen this movie for real. I've never seen this movie. I have long known what it was. I knew what the concept was. Never seen it. Yeah. I knew there was this controversy about us choosing it. And I'm here to say hot take. I love this movie. This movie gets it.

Wow! A divided... Boom! A divided crowd. Well, guess what? You're going to have a companion in love. Buddy! Because... Let's get it going. Our next... Love Gun takes four days. It is a movie worth dissecting. I mean, I don't even know if we have enough time before they kick us out. I cried at the end of the movie!

I cried tears for my lost childhood at the end of this movie. Somehow I will end up talking about this movie in therapy. What is going on? I am shocked. I am speechless. And I'm going to bring out another defender of this film. A person who said this is her favorite movie. Ladies and gentlemen, Miss June Diane Raphael.

How are you, June? Hi, Paul. How are you? Good, thank you. June, you were the reason that we have not done this movie earlier. I spoke about it to you about a year and a half ago. I said, I think we're going to do Drop Dead Fred. And you were like, how could you? The movie's perfect. It's my favorite movie. I wanted to recuse myself from tonight's podcast taping because this is truly one of my favorite movies

motion pictures. And I want to spend some time once we introduce our guest talking about what this movie means to me. What it now means to me. What it now means to Jason. I feel like I have finally become a woman. I saw this movie when I was 11 years old. This movie is why I wanted to pursue a career in acting. That's true. That's true.

Without this film, you would not have seen me in NBC's Animal Practice. Other guest star roles I've done. Do you want to list them starting with under fives and then group? I did one episode of a show called Free Agents starring Katherine Hahn. Great show. Hank Azaria. My episode did not air. Okay.

I was in a movie called Going the Distance. Drew Barrymore. With Drew Barrymore and Justin Long. None of this. None of this would have happened. If not for Drop Dead Fred. Wow. Big words, big words. Well. It's just true.

So happy to have a guest that I feel is worthy of this conversation. A guest who has simply been a How Did This Get Made all-star. She's been on the show numerous times. Always has an amazing point of view. The host of her own podcast called Bitch Sesh. She also is one of the stars of Black Monday. And she was on Happy Endings and Marry Me. Please welcome Casey Wilson. Welcome.

Casey, welcome. Thank you for having me on this important night. Any opening thoughts on Drop Dead, Fred? Did you see it first time, long time? What are you? First time I've seen it, and I will be honest, I love doing this podcast so much, but I feel angry. I feel very angry that I was made to watch what I found to be the most annoying. Well, well, well. Well, well, well.

It's like the North, the South. Again, we're divided down the center. Well, northerners, here we go. No, northerners are here. Let's get into it. Let's get into it. Let's dig into it because you fools are about to get schooled. Honestly, you really are. All right, June, get into it. You lead us off. So this movie is about women misbehaving.

Yeah. It truly is. It is about things. The little girl is a little girl and she is incentivized towards mischief, which is delightful. It's about a pedophile. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. No, it is not. What?

is this man only weird old men with young children I had an imaginary friend who was age appropriate and

And not a purr. Two upskirt shots in this movie. Okay, so that's what I want to say. I liked that this movie is about this little girl not being able to experience loss and grief and all the traumas of childhood and what she feels about her mother. I thought her mom was nice. Dude! Me too! I'm dead. Finally. I'm dead. Loved her. Loved her. Whatever.

What? Wait. What? That mom was nice. She was nice. Are you insane? She's a sociopath. What? The mother blames the daughter. She's evil. It's child abuse. You want to talk about abuse? That's not

The mother had been pushed. By what? A child? Are you, you mean... Talking about... Oh, this mother was a piece of shit. At the end... Fred saved that little girl's life. Yes. But let me be clear. Fred didn't do jack shit. That girl saved her own life. Fred is a projection of herself. Well, and by the way...

We're talking at the same time now, Jason. We're on the same team. Let's not forget that. We're on the same team, man. We're on the same team. For those of you listening at home, everyone has been out of their chairs multiple times. Jason and June have left the stage. They're still talking on mic. We got this. We got this. We're back. We're good. We're good. We're good. We're okay. We're okay.

So, if you just want to... You know when people are wrong and they have to get a lot of energy going? June, can I talk to you over here for a second? These motherfuckers deserve this. These motherfuckers are pushing my last button. Okay, we gotta go out there and just stay cool with them. Okay, okay, let's go. So anyway, the mom only reveals herself to be slightly problematic at the very last moments of the movie. Here's what I'm gonna say. This girl, the first time we see her... Oh, are we still doing the show?

Oh, cool. The girl, the first moment we see the girl, she's in bed. The mom is telling her a bedtime story. And the girl goes. Marsha Mason, one of the all-time greats playing the mother. Yes. And she's wonderful, and we can agree on that. We can agree. The goodbye girl, she's incredible. She's a wonderful actress. Phenomenal. And she says, the girl, young Phoebe Cates, what a pile of shit.

At which point I was like, now I understand why this movie is beloved by so many people who were young when this movie came out. Because it gave kids license, I'm assuming young girls license, to be like, oh, wait a minute. I get to be bad. I get to be bad. I get to participate in bad things. Because the movie is about misbehaving, acting out, and it's about being horny for the first time. And that's huge. What? What is it about that? What?

Horny for the first time? I mean, like, that's, to me, or not maybe for the first time, but it's about, like, this movie is fucking horny. Yes, I will say. Everybody's talking about sex and how long it lasts and all this stuff. Yes, and if you watch the movie in your reading, which is the imaginary... Horny version? Yes, and also, Fred is a projection of herself. Is he? She is, excuse me. LAUGHTER

Excuse me. We're back, baby. We're back. If you read it in the sort of psychoanalytical way, I actually think it's meant to be viewed. It is a return to self. She meets herself at the end of the movie. Well, I don't like who she met. And it's about... It's also about...

It's also about the tension and the need for daughters to break from their mothers. And this is a very difficult thing that she struggles with, obviously, into adulthood in an inappropriate way. But it is about the idea of being able to misbehave and get free from the gravitational pull of this woman. Okay, and the beautiful choice, excuse me, that they make at the end. I'm sorry, I'm getting upset again. You got this, guys. Can you let June talk? Take a breath. Can you let June talk? She hasn't shut up!

Casey, can you let June talk? Can June talk, Casey? The beautiful choice they make at the end of the movie is to actually not villainize the mother and to not make that moment where she says goodbye to her mom and breaks away from her finally a joke. And they don't make you feel...

Like, she's rude to her or mean to her. There is an act of forgiveness in what she says, which is you should find a friend. Get a friend. And it's so beautifully done. All right, go ahead, Casey. But here's... Can I just...

By the way, I want to just talk about one thing. Don't you think he brainwashed her? Don't you think Fred brainwashed her? Fred doesn't exist. Remember. No, he does. Fred does not exist. Then how did he jump into the other girl? How's he with the other girl? What? How's he with the other girl at the end? Because...

He's still in Phoebe Cates' mind when she sees that little girl misbehaving. No, because she didn't see Fred. Let's foundationally approach this. Right. Do you guys believe this is a movie in which the character of Fred is a physical being in the world?

No, but here's what I think the movie posits. So where does Fred come from? This is what I think it posits, okay? I think this movie posits there's a world of imaginary friends because they all know each other, they all saw each other in that world. Well, you don't have to clap. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Wait, hold on. Let me just finish my thought. And they are doled out to other people. And the reason why Fred has not been doled out to somebody else is because he's been trapped in that jack-in-the-box. But...

In the real world, they are just constantly pushing. But at the end of the movie, we find that it's not Fred who's trapped in the box. It is she that is taken to the better side. Okay, I want to say, I love both of you. She is Fred. Jason? She is not Fred. She is Fred. No, she is not. Fred is a manifestation. Fred is a manifestation of her id. Her uncontrolled, unbridled impulses. Okay. I agree. Jason and Jim. You're an animal in the audience. I agree with what you're both saying.

ever. Greg, don't talk anymore then, right? It's the worst execution. We win. It's the worst execution of that idea I've ever seen. Yes. It's confusing. I don't want to watch that. Because here's the thing. Here's the thing. You know what Fred is not? Beetlejuice. Funny. Funny.

I disagree. I'll tell you what I do think. Worst performance I've ever seen. Fred is too Beetlejuice. Fred is not Beetlejuice because only she can see Fred, period. Okay, but I wanted to see Michael Keaton in that role. I mean, you are, wow, wow. Guys, wait a minute. I'm sorry. I'm genuinely asking. You liked that actor? Loved him. I love that actor. And I was attracted to him many times. Robin! Many times during that movie. Did you like that actor? Robin!

Robin Williams turned this part down. I get it. I wrote this is a Robin Williams riff, which I'm okay with. And Rick, the star of this movie, Rick turned down the sequel and Jim Carrey was attached and the studio went belly up. But here's my question about this. Guys, I'm having a great time. I've already lost my voice. I'm having the best time. The show has just begun and I have a headache.

I know I've been screaming because I have a headache already. You know why we're screaming? Because that actor screamed every line and I felt like I was in a hell of my own making and it's just continued into the podcast.

Just yelling. Here's what I would say about this character, and I want to talk about how it kind of is problematic towards women. Every man in the movie says, oh, that's a girly thing, that's a girly thing, that's a girly thing. Even Drop Dead Fred's like, girly, oh, he's a girl, he's a girl. He vilifies women, and he vilifies the mother that calls her a mega bitch,

And then later on, he calls, like, the nanny a mega bitch. And I'm like, fucking Fred is a misogynist. Well...

I have to disagree because, again, I believe those lines are written by Phoebe Cates' character. That's her own internalized misogyny. Every time Fred talks, that's her saying you're a mega bitch. That's her saying those things. She's making the mud pie. She sunk the boat. She wanted to do that. She what? Sunk that boat. Yeah. Yes. She's acting out. She's like, don't do it.

Wait! We win! We won! We won! Drop dead friend! Drop dead friend! I'm sorry, I just had to walk off the stage for a second. And I couldn't find Paul. Did not want to sink that boat. What purpose would you want to sink that boat?

Her good friend, Carrie Fisher, who's having a very age-appropriate relationship with a young man. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. As Phoebe Cates also having. I did the research, by the way. Phoebe Cates right now is 55. Tim Matheson is 71. That is a giant age difference of her man to be. And I don't think they make much of that. Well, he is a villain. He's like the villain. He's bad for her. I was attracted to him.

Who? Wait. What? Her husband? Her ex-husband? Her husband. Charlie? You were attracted to Charlie? Oh, Casey. Casey? He's trash. He's a trash person. June, what's attractive

I was. Yes, which is to say she was attracted to Phoebe Cates. That's correct. And I was also attracted to Phoebe Cates. So was I. She looked fucking great. I love Phoebe Cates, but I found this performance so expressionless. And don't try to tell me that was the role because I still have to watch something with my eyeballs. So you're telling me that this, with her in the restaurant where she's doing that brilliant physical comedy. Oh my God, June. Yes, June. Brilliant. Yes, June. Elevated. Yes, June. Brilliant.

Physical comedy. Okay, this is... And honestly, what I want to say right now is I'm pretty sure I've based every performance, every instinct, every... Okay. Everything. This is a movie of muted expressions, right? Because everyone is muted. Like, she's like, Carrie Fisher, oh yeah, my invisible friend's back. And she's like, oh, okay. And this guy's like, I love the way you sink a houseboat. Everyone has...

has nothing. Okay, see, this is what I think. Dead, dead, everyone is dead. This is what I think. I feel like in the movie, the movie is, it is, it's really hard because Phoebe Cates, in the scenes, I feel like with Carrie Fisher and that, it is a story about mental illness, essentially. Yes, she is not well. Carrie Fisher is treating her like she's mentally ill. I mean, she is not well. Phoebe Cates is not

Not a well person. I agree. She wears that house dress to bed. Because her mother dresses like, not like that. Her mother dresses very... Nicely. Yes. And Phoebe Cates is still dressing like a little girl. Oh, look at this. Her mother assumes that Phoebe Cates has dragged shit all over her.

floor. Phoebe Cates did do that. Okay, sure. Phoebe Cates did put shit on the rug. And the mother goes like this. The mother who is a caring mother is like, okay, I gotta clean this up. Because she wasn't bad. Yeah. Because she wasn't that bad. The mother was bad. And when they gave her medication, the mother said, does that have side effects? I thought that was nice.

The only problem with the mother is she brought her to a child psychologist. Honestly, I'm worried. I'm honestly worried about the both of them. And now with Jason, I feel sad. I don't feel as angry. I'm starting to feel upset and sad for them. How did they not get this? What is going on? I don't know, but you have to question their own relationship. Okay, we might have to fight then. Okay, let's go. And just, again, be cool. Welcome back.

Welcome back, Jason and June. Oh, boy. No, are we still doing the show? Can I? So you think that Phoebe Cates wants to look up her mother's crotch and see cobwebs or see no underwear? Yes, I do. Because I think that when you're that little girl is the insult you say to your mother. Nobody wants you. You're old. You're dried up. You're all the things. By the way, that man

that she was married to was a bad man. Where's the sympathy for her? He barely was a parent. He was the one that was like, shouldn't we let her indulge in her fantasy life? And the mom was like, no fantasy life for you. You ruined everything. You're a trash kid. That was at the end. When you say something at the end of the movie, that doesn't mean it's just occurred to you. That's your character's truth throughout. Great job, Jason. Oh, guys, this show might be the last episode of this podcast.

I just want to let the audience know, you know, we were all together backstage and we actually had a very pleasant, I did not know this was going to happen. How could we be such different people? I'm really quite stunned. We all sat backstage. I wrote more notes for this movie than any movie in history. I was going to read my notes, but it all says, this is the worst thing I've ever seen. This is astoundingly bad. 53 minutes left. I'm in hell.

Phoebe Cates is a lifeless doll. Fred is an abuser. Gladiola's what the fuck? Fred doesn't help her. Fred doesn't help her. And why does she kiss Fred in the end?

Ew. What was going on? What the fuck? And don't try to say she married herself. Should she not develop a sexual relationship with herself? That's the first person. Are we not interested in her having a sexual relationship with herself? She should find her body sexy. All Fred does is fuck her up at every given point. All she does is fuck herself up.

I wrote my notes. My notes were all along. This movie is a fantasy for little girls. It allows them to be disrespectful and bad, especially towards their mothers, and is also super horny. Save it. Save it for your medium post.

You guys seem awfully caught up in the message and what's under this terrible movie. I was shocked it was there. Yeah. I was shocked that was what was the content. I thought this was going to be Problem Child with an imaginary friend. Oh, that was so much smarter. Just Dennis the Menace style hijinks. And it wasn't because all of Fred's hijinks are to get her to a place where she can make this break. And that was interesting. I'm going to tell you the best acting in this movie...

was the little girl version of Phoebe Cates. When she steals herself, like, when the mom's like, I'm gonna fucking kill Fred, she's like...

face covered in whatever shit she had on it. She's like, okay, you're gonna kill my friend. And it was like, I've never seen a little kid take in like, we're gonna kill somebody. We're gonna kill your friend. Fuck old Yeller. This was real active. And then she got up and cleaned up those fucking frosted flakes.

Imagine, and you're telling me that the mother saying that is evidence of her being a good mother? If you open this again, I'm going to kill him. That's a good mother to you? She was wrecking the house. Question mark? No, thank you. She was a terror. Okay, I just want to know, just from a comedic perspective, okay? Let's put aside. Let's talk about the comedy. You think I'm scared to talk about the comedy? Let's fucking talk about it.

Talk about it. I'm ready. Here's the thing. June and I, we love talking about comedy. Let's do it. Okay, okay. Then let's start. So Fred is her. Okay, I'll go with that. Fred's her. Let's talk about the comedy. Fred wants to push her to be a little, you know, a little more daring. Why was every single thing at 100 out of 1 to 10 of disgustingness, anger? It was so loud. It was horrible. I didn't have one ha the whole movie. Well, that makes me feel sad for you. Yeah.

Here's the thing. If you're the kind of person that is attracted to Charlie, if you're the kind of person that is attracted to Charlie, you wouldn't understand why Fred is so funny. You're trying to tell me that when she puts... You're a Charlie girl. We're Fred girls. When she puts the napkin on her face and then pulls it down and says peekaboo, you didn't laugh. That was cute. What? That was cute. All right, well, look. When she's shaking the water glass like that, I feel...

Okay, but what's funny about the guy being like, you're crazy. Like, there was no reality to be found. Nobody in this movie treated her like a real person. If you were to reveal that she was in a padded cell and everything was imagined, A-plus movie. That would have been great. Oh, why? Why? Because the act... Are you positing, Paul, that the act of growing from childhood to adulthood and the complex feelings that it brings out makes one insane? Uh,

She was 27. Throwing pasta? Oh yeah, she's really growing because all people who have fun throw pasta in restaurants. Restaurants that are oddly in a mall. He hit her in the face. He hit her in the face with a shovel. Numerous times. What was

about it. What? That's like the funniest. I just want, I want to hear, because we're getting into this idea of is she Fred? So we're going to watch a scene where Fred meets all the invisible friends and I want you to kind of tell me what you think is happening here. This is a lot of comedy. So we're getting to see all the friends, all the different ones. Turn around, June.

We have a guy, all older men, no women. No one's coming. And they all are the exact same energy. There is a woman who enters. Oh, yes. This is it. This is kind of the comedy. This is the comedy June is enjoying. I don't hear people laughing out there. This isn't the funniest scene, but I think June is laughing.

So now when Phoebe Cates looks at the scene, she only sees Fred solo. Right. That's funny. But Fred is seeing all the other people. But you're saying that Fred is a manifestation of Phoebe Cates, but yet Fred to them, Fred has imaginary friends on top of it? Play it again. I think every manifest... I think if you're going to say that these are...

I'm trying to draw the, what's the movie called? Jason, you seem a bit. Monster's Inc, right? So Monster's Inc is a thing that like, right? The kids can see the monsters, but adults can't see the monsters. I only saw Monster's University, no big deal. Oh, which is the first? No, you're right. Monster's Inc is first. Okay, okay. Anyway, I understand what you're saying, that if Fred is a manifestation of Phoebe Cates,

He doesn't have a point of view himself that he can see. And there is certainly magical realism to the movie. I do believe the intention of a Fred is meant to be a representation of her id. I know what you're saying, but I still think... But you guys, it's a movie. I don't think that...

Now he's sounding like an Amazon five-star review. Now it's a movie. When we talk about children's imaginary friends, I don't think we ever think those are real things. Those are manifestations of the children's point of view. But why doesn't Phoebe Cates see all the imaginary friends then? Those kids came up with all of them. Right, but then that means that Fred lives in a world that's like Monsters, Inc.,

I think that's like, yes. I think there is a... And that's why he's able to transfer himself to the other girl. Listen, you guys, it's a big budget comedy. They're going to take some liberty. It's not that big of a budget. They're going to take liberties where they need to. By the way, they spent all the money and I loved every minute of it. I loved all the choices. I loved that house. The budget, by the way, is $6.7 million. The house is cute. 6.7. We did the movie Deadfall on the podcast. That was a $10 million movie.

But yeah, 6.7. Small budget movie. Well, then they did a great job with what they had. Today's podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm in the middle of trying to balance my business life and my real life. This work-life balance, it's tough. But Squarespace has been helping me by giving me the tools to reach my goals and have time to celebrate. That's right. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform.

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For free. Terms and conditions apply. Jason and June, I'm going to ask you one more time. Yes. And I want you to be honest and don't try to do this for them. Sure. I could give a fuck about them. This is one of my favorite movies. I want you two to look at me and answer this. Yes. You found, I don't want to hear about Id. I don't want to hear about Childhood Friend. You found the actor playing Fred to be funny and good.

Casey? Yes. I'm in shock! Listen, did everything land? Was it the most hilarious? No. But I could also see that... It was multifaceted. It was multilayered. I think this movie is for kids. Really? I think this movie is for younger people. You didn't have any different mode but scream. Let me do this. Pull up to this movie when they were a kid.

Now, I have a question for you. As adults, do you think this is a kids' movie? No. This is a movie, this is an adult movie that has elements of a... Yeah, I don't know that it's a kids' movie. I disagree with you there, Jason. Perhaps. And I'm scared to break ties with you because it's really dangerous up here. We can be individuals. We are stronger apart as well as together. Okay, great. No, I wrote, who is this movie for? I'm genuinely positing that.

I agree with that because the movie is overtly sexual in a way that I actually was like, I like that this movie is making dirty jokes for younger people. You're saying bare male ass. By the way, good.

I don't understand. We live in a world where kids can't see or hear anything. This movie has people... Fred makes jokes about people dying, death. Fred makes jokes about sex. Things that kids are obsessed with and worried about is what Fred talks about. That's why he's documented. I think that's why he talks about only gross... You're acting like this is being there.

Or something. I wish Hal Ashby had made this movie. Yeah, if Hal Ashby was playing Fred, I would feel very differently. Listen, here's what I want to say about Fred's performance. And by the way, R.I.P. Rest in peace. Yes. Rest in peace. May he rest. Rick Mayall, who by the way is Fred. Amazing one. The young ones. Yeah, great. Yes.

Oh, only a smatter? And by the way, Rick Mayall, also on Casey and I's side, because when they wanted him for a sequel, he was like, eh, no. He saw it. He goes, what the fuck? He was like, yeah, no thank you. Adios. I don't know. I think he thought, I did it. I did it.

I think his performance was wonderful and brave and committed. And I thought he acted with the young Phoebe Cates beautifully and the older Phoebe Cates beautifully. And every moment is not going to be perfect and like wrapped up in a perfect little joke for you guys. Yes.

With your little perfect jokes? Yeah, where you can recognize everything and point to the equation of comedy. It's not about that. X plus Y equals boof. It's not about that. What he's doing, though, is something very realized, very courageous, and it sometimes fails. You know, June, I feel sad that you can't see this as a grown woman. Wow. Wow.

Wow. And I hate to say that, but you know, like, see it with fresh eyes. Because, and I understand where you're coming from. It's how I am with Clue. And I think that's a good movie, but you're like, Clue? But that inspired me for comedy. It's her favorite movie. Clue is a good movie. Clue is a movie that has the line, I was never in Sumatra. That Clue? Of course.

Is there a line in Clue as searing as, I should never have let my mother know how much she could hurt me? That took my breath away. That line is in this movie. Why? Why though? It doesn't earn that. You're like, this movie takes such a fucking left turn. I think this is exposing, and again, I don't want to attack, but some things going on with you two. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Okay. All right, buddy. I mean, by the way, this movie, this is what gets me so frustrated. Like, Fred is doing, I think, jack shit the entire movie besides fucking with her. And then she takes a pill and then goes into this magical world where she's dead. And then Fred's like, oh, we figured it out. What?

What? When nothing came in handy in that world, like, she goes to this magical place, she heals herself. Nothing came in handy. You mean... She spoke to her childhood self. But how is that earned? She spoke to her inner child and healed her inner child. So if you take pills, you can see your inner child. You want to talk about psychiatry now?

And its usefulness? That is to say, when Harry Potter dies and goes to King's Cross Station and talks to Dumbledore, right? I've only seen the play. Oh, boy.

You know when Scorpius comes in and he says, no, I'm not doing Cursed Child. No, I think, again, that is a world of her imagination. She is either drugged or she is experiencing that. She is going in and healing herself, I think. That is setting herself free, allowing herself to mature into adulthood. The goal of all therapy, all analysis, all wellness, is not that we give it over to someone else.

To do, it's that we're given the tools. By the way, this feels like we just tuned in to June's TED Talk. To parent ourselves, to mother ourselves. Yes! June behind a giant poster of Drop Dead Fred talking with one of those Madonna mics. By the way, June, I will remake this movie with you, June. Jason, it would be my greatest honor. Somebody call us. Somebody call us.

We will do this. And I will play the guy who fucks Carrie Fisher. My issue is with the actors and the comedy. So I'd love to see the two of you do it. What'd you say? I'd love to see the two of you do it. Thank you, Casey. Thank you, Casey. Yeah. I appreciate that. You're welcome. And I want to give you guys that. And you can be the mom. I'll be Carrie Fisher.

I think Paul said he wanted to be Carrie Fisher. Oh, you want to be Carrie? Okay, I'll be the mom. I wanted to be Carrie Fisher's boyfriend who, because I only had wet dreams. Yeah. Gross. Gross. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. Carrie Fisher is, fuck, Marv, is that his name? By the way, Carrie Fisher lives on a fucking riverboat. Like, fuck is that? River condo.

River Vaucon. That was like to me that's like any woman in the 90s who's stepping out of like the norms of society who's not married with children like they're gonna relegate to a houseboat. Yes. Yes. You can't be an unmarried woman in your 30s and not have made two other insane choices.

That's it. It's like, I'm not married, I'm in my 30s, I guess I live on a houseboat, or I guess I fly a helicopter to work. I don't know. It might as well be any of that. I was obsessed with the houseboat. But I loved, too, that Carrie Fisher tells Phoebe Cates that sex can last all night, and Phoebe Cates is like, I didn't know that.

What was going on with her and Tim Matheson? Like, what was that relationship? How long were they together? Why did they meet? Why did he settle for her? Because she doesn't seem to have any of the things that he... Why did he settle for her? She's literally one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen in my life. He should be so fucking lucky to be with her. Why did he settle for her? Matt, you're a terrible apologist. He's got Annabelle. Bridget Fonda. He's got Annabelle.

Bridget Fonda, who seems so with it. So normal. Bridget Fonda, uncredited cameo. Did not take the credit. We are... I'm so happy. I'm having genuinely so much fun. I do feel bad. I feel like we've been at a 20 collectively for the entirety of the podcast. I have sweat through all of my clothes. I feel exhausted. I have a blinding headache.

I apologize to everyone. I apologize as well. Coming in hot today. So we talk about like, what was going on though? Because I did think it was a weird thing and I thought it was intentional that all, that these two young women in the film were with much older men. Like what kind of, what were they kind of showing there? I thought that was an odd choice.

Listen, there's a lot of problems. I think it's actually to return back to why so many of the imaginary friends are male. I would say... Why so many of the little girls have male and little boys have male imaginary friends. I think...

Little girls simply can't imagine because they haven't seen representations of women behaving badly, representations of women doing what they should not be doing. And so they're actually imagining men doing it, boy characters. That's why little girls, when they write stories, usually don't cast the hero as a little girl. Representation matters, you guys. LAUGHTER

So wouldn't you argue that Drop Dead Fred would be better if it was Drop Dead Frederique? No, I think it was realistic. And I think it was showing that she didn't have a paradigm for... She didn't have any modeling for her curiosity and her... Okay, I have a question, Jen. I'm genuinely wondering this. If Drop Dead Fred was around to kind of show her how to be bad, how come it didn't take when she was younger? Right, exactly.

And then he had to come back. What do you mean? It took in the sense that, like, she was acting out as she was... As her parents' marriage was failing, as things were happening around her that she was uncomfortable with, that she was acting out and acting out and acting out until to such a point that her mother was... Gave her such a threat that she had to literally...

She boxed up all that was her kind of, her id-driven personality, what was acting out, what would have become whatever, a grown adult's point of view. But she took a fake thing and boxed it up.

She repressed that part of her is what it is. So Fred came back when she had the break with her husband. Because of trauma and grief and loss. I understand that. Casey's coming around. I just want to warn you. Casey's coming around. I think she repressed a lot of stuff and that's why I think... I think the end is better than the movie ends.

it to be. Like, I feel like the end is like, you leave the movie and go, whoa, what? That was what I was watching? But it doesn't, like, the first hour and 20 don't lead up to those last 20. Or maybe you weren't listening and watching as closely as you should have. I'm sorry it wasn't spoon-fed to you guys.

I just think... I just like to be entertained at the end of the day. As do I. I hear what you're saying about these messages. I just didn't feel any entertainment. Am I supposed to feel empowered by a woman who is almost 30 taking a booger out and wiping it on her boyfriend's face? Like, you go, girl! Great point, Paul. Wow, you're real mature now. Is that you empowered? You go, you go, girl?

That's empowering. Yes. I stand with Paul.

But I mean, like, what? Like, is that cool? Maybe sick. Yeah, it's like, wouldn't you want her to do something that, like, does she have to be a child to be an adult? Yes, she does, because she was trapped in that moment when her father left, when her family fell apart, when she took that on as her own fault, that her dad and her male figure... What was? When she internalized the blame that her mother laid on her. It was a little bit her fault. I agree. It was not her fault. I agree with that. The father!

Wow. Paul. You are shaming a 10-year-old girl? We are raising children together. Wow. I am deeply concerned. This show will lead to divorce. We should have saved this for the last show on the tour. No. I missed the Meghan Markle one we did last time. I thought that there was an issue with...

the way that their relationship was set up because the father was kind of didn't want to parent she goes what do you know about parenting and he's like left that was i thought a pretty shit move on his part but he was like i don't want to reprimand her i don't want to do anything he didn't want to take responsibility the mom's in there working her ass off trying to make sense of things she's like agree with that don't fucking mess up the kitchen don't put dog shit on the listen

Listen, but that's what's beautiful about this movie. I believe that as abusive as Marsha Mason is, that she's also a product of her own upbringing. She's also a product... She needs a friend. Yes, she needs a friend. She needs to be a friend to herself. Wouldn't it have been better if Drop Dead Fred became her friend at the end? Agree. How? How?

You want an adult to have an imaginary friend? That's what Phoebe Cates has! No! Phoebe Cates has her own... Phoebe Cates didn't get an imaginary friend as an adult. It's the same imaginary friend from her childhood. But then he goes off and works with somebody else. I mean, sort of. I mean, yes, but I think that's for the movie. It's a movie. It's a movie.

Let's talk about this guy, though. The mother institutionalizes her in the home and keeps her, like, drugged into, like, nonsense. Hire's a nerd. She's fucking dangerous. I could argue that her mother is, that Phoebe Cates as a little child is her mother's friend.

her own version of Fred, because she is projecting so much onto this child about her own self. What? This mother is so upset by this little girl causing a mess because she can't handle the mess of herself. I think the mother's whole thing is about control. I think the mother is exerting control on all elements, the rug, the carpet, the this, the that. Phoebe Cates, Phoebe Cates' life, Phoebe Cates' marriage. Right, but when you sign on to parenting, you have...

have to accept and you do sign paperwork right you must a lot of paperwork that guy behind the 7-eleven was strict i need to give him three forms of id for those kids this child is outside of me and you have to release that control which is why it was so hard for her to be a parent she wanted just to connect with it she's alone she's trying to do everything no no she's she is basic

undermining her own daughter to Charles. She's going behind Phoebe Cates' back to Matheson being like, you gotta get her back, you gotta take me, like acting not in her daughter's best interest but in what she believes is best for the daughter. But she was trying to help. Thank God she got her that haircut. I don't disagree about the haircut. I think we're all saying the same thing about the mother which is ultimately hurt people hurt people. Wow. Okay, end of story. Okay.

Let's, let me just drop a little bit of information on you guys. I'm not surprised that you two like it, because this is actually written by someone who wrote another movie for How Did This Get Made, a movie called Hurricane Heist. Boom! Yes! I don't remember that movie.

This movie was also shot in Paisley Studios, which is Prince's studios, where they shot Under the... Cherry Moon. Cherry the Moon and Purple Rain. It's the only non-Prince movie shot there. And apparently Prince would hang out on the sets at night.

When no one was there. After hours? Like just prints hanging out in the dark, dead Fred house? Which are the most ugliest sets. But I did want to talk about this boyfriend. Because Fred is often cutting him down, going, he's a girl, he's a girl, he's a girl. And this boyfriend... Again, Phoebe Cates is saying that, but go on. And also... Yeah, go ahead. But why would Phoebe Cates be saying he's a girl? Wouldn't she be like, oh, this person actually cares about me? Self-hatred. Self-hatred.

She has self-hatred. You don't even seem like she has that. She does, though. She has internalized misogyny. And she is conditioned to choose the Tim Mathesons of the world, the dicks, the people that treat her poorly, that she doesn't know. Her own mind, when presented with a good option, undercuts that option and cuts it. It doesn't even make it look appealing to her because her picker is like...

by, I'm assuming, her mother to be like, Charles is, Charles is, Charles is. Only Charles is what we do. But this guy, I would say, if you say that Phoebe Cates needs help, she is seriously depressed, this guy, I think, also needs help. Ron Eldord? Yeah, he was standing on the tree branches outside of her house. Yeah, he is on a whole nother... That was very weird. Yeah. I mean...

I mean, I thought it was really weird. I thought it was really weird. There was definitely, listen, I loved this movie thematically. I loved a lot about it, but there was a bunch of nonsense in this movie. I thought it was weird that he bumps into her and is like, Elizabeth? Like from like, from 25 years ago? Oh, like that was, no, you don't recognize somebody with that much time in between. But he never fell out of love with her.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess maybe that's it. But he also said, I got divorced here. And it seemed unclear, like, as if he said, like, oh, I just come here to visit. This is where I got divorced. Or I just got divorced today. Let's play a little bit of their romantic chemistry here. Did he see the dinner scene? Oh, no. Mickey fart pants. You let him grow up. What? I'm sorry. No, no, no. Look, don't apologize. I love being with you. I love the way you cut your hair.

I love the way you sink houseboats. God, look at him. He's still talking about love. Oh, he said you should be a girl. You know, some people believe that you really never, ever fall out of love. Look, this isn't like when we were five. We're grown-ups now, so piss off. I'd like to know more about the grown-up Mickey Buns. Okay, I... Well, I know how much you...

And you pause the scene and you pull out and you're in an insane asylum together and they're eating on steel plates and it's the same fucking scene. He looks more dead in the eyes than she does. This is a dead in the eye op. Well, this is before he becomes a paramedic on ER. So, like, I think for him...

For him, he's like, he's not sure where he is yet. You know, he's lost. He's lost. I guess you're... Yeah, he's lost as well. This movie's arguing that because he left when he left and his childhood love for her was interrupted, that there's some element of freedom that he needs as well. His most romantic line to her is at the end. He goes, hey, you got a lot of options in your life. I'd like to be one of those options. Bestill my heart.

Hey, you know what? Wow, you'd like to be one of the options. I like that he's letting her know he's available and she can choose. He's not forcing himself on her. He's not saying, I'm the answer to all your problems. Believe in me. I also think he's one of the few people who saw her childhood self, reckless, you know, and he liked it. And that's what he's responding to here. So Phoebe Case makes that mud pie for dinner, but has no recollection of it.

She goes, oh yeah, drunk dead Fred. She's fucking creepy, man. How dare you? Casey, more. More, more, more, more. You know what, genuinely, the part I loved in the movie was right before Fred came leading up to it, it was like the first 13 minutes, I thought this is like a fun kind of like working girl, weird, don't tell mom the babysitter's dead, like a fun premise that led to just such insanity.

That I thought it could have built more. It was just such a freight train of insanity. I wouldn't have minded... I agree in the sense that I wouldn't have minded more rules. I wouldn't have minded knowing how it worked more. Like the gladiolus. He's bouncing around like a green ball. He's in the thing. Every time she sneezes, he flies away. I agree. Why? Well, that's just fun. I think that was like...

But he's not affected by any other movement of her besides that. I agree. Stuff like that's where I mean there could have been more rules. Like with a Freaky Friday the rules are terrible but they're so clearly set up that you're instantly like okay but this I was like I feel scared. What's

I don't disagree in that sense. It worked like Fight Club, like you said, Paul. I thought that was a good example because in retrospect, you understand that all of the physicality that Brad Pitt performed, Ed Norton performed. Ed Norton, the eyes of everybody else must have done it. And you have to presume the same here. Any physicality that Fred is able to do or able to exhibit is done by Phoebe Cates. We just don't get a chance to see it.

Wait, so Phoebe Cates is looking up her mother's dress. Phoebe Cates. Yes, Paul. Yes. Phoebe Cates. No, no, no. When they come home and there's a note from Charles to her that's da-da-da-da-da-da. Who wrote that note? Fred. Fred.

Of course not. Phoebe Cates wrote that note. No, that's what I'm saying. Guys, she's not that outwardly insane. People would have dragged her out of a party if she was lying under that dress for that long. By the way, that party was fucked up. Who has a wine-tasting party? Like, drink, spit. Like, ew. Like, I get that as like a wine tasting. Who has that? The guy that you guys love has that. He's a guest. He's a guest.

No, but that's what I think. I do think I agree with you. You guys are forgetting. You both are forgetting. Stop pointing at us. Get him, June. Get him, June. What it is to be a child. Yes! To be curious. Yes! To be wondering. To be messy. To be angry. And all of it to be all the feelings. This story is about grief and trauma and the power of one's imagination. Yes!

Here again, I love everything you two are discussing. I would love to see that movie. You did! Yes! You saw that movie! You just did.

open your eyes enough to really see it. You saw the rough draft of that movie. You know what I feel bad for? I feel bad that you guys saw a movie through the eyes of adults. Yeah, I think that's what happened here. That's what I feel bad for. I feel bad that you guys have forgotten how to look at a movie through a child's eye. I saw the movie through Annabella's eyes and she's a woman I could get behind. She's not going to go back with Tim Matheson. She's like, you know what? Honestly,

says the name of the woman they're sleeping with that much when talking to her? No, Annabella. No, Annabella. Annabella, listen. Annabella. Wait. Annabella. You've got to listen to me. Annabella. Everything's working out with Lizzie, Annabella. Annabella, listen to me. Now listen. I felt like they just kept the camera rolling on him and he was like, and no one was on the other end of that phone. Annabella. Annabella. That's all I know. The only

the only scene I really took issue with was that reveal. Yeah, I just felt like the writing was a little sloppy there in that one, in that part. In just that part. Because I felt like it could, there could have been a better reveal for her to find out that he was still with her and not just over here by peeking through a door. Just an accidental sneeze that shot him over a wall that happened to be in a loft, I guess, where the walls didn't hit the...

Okay, sure, architecture, weird, prince, whatever. Like, that's what happens. And then her big moment of triumph is dumping a salad, which you could totally tell is an actor's choice. Like, Tim Matthews is like, don't put soup on my fucking head. Give me the salad.

I'll take that. And don't put dressing on it either. I want an easy clean up. I don't want to take a shower. Wow, you guys really identify with Matheson. They really did. You're like, you're out here in the world being like, don't put mud on my pants. Don't put salad on my head. Don't criticize me for still sleeping with Annabella. You know what? We're out here representing the Phoebe Cateses and the Freds who are just trying to be horny weirdos living in the world. Yes.

I don't mean to speak for you, June. By the way, I believe it was April who pointed out that Bridget Fonda is wearing stockings, so it would be very hard to see if she was wearing underwear or not. I thought the same thing, but I thought they're sheer. You could still see. They're sheer. You'd be able to see. Do you not wear underwear or stockings? Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. Wow. That we can agree on, June.

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Let's go into the crowd and see what you all have to say.

I would love you to tell me your name and what team you're on. Are you Team Fred? Are you Team Mom or Team Fred? What do you think? Team Mom or... What is it? Is it Team Fred and Team Mom? What would be the best way to do it? No, because to just pit Fred against everyone, just like Team Sanity or Insanity. Yeah, Team Fred. I guess Team Fred or Team Mom. You said that. And that's right. Okay, I'll stand behind the mom. I'll stand behind the mom. That's...

You two really want to stand behind the mom. That's wild. That's what he said. He's saying he's team mom. I do too. Wow. All right. This is wild. Ma'am, your name, team Fred, team Sanity, and your question. Jeanette, team Sanity for sure. Jeanette, not cool. Not cool. I'm like, we're enemies now. If we accept that Fred is Feedy Cates, why as... If we accept it? If we...

Adult pedicates are very... Who is very clearly sexually active with her fiancé. Why is Fred's only concept of sex pigeons stomping on each other?

Like, doing that as an adult, right? Great question. Because she is sexually repressed. Yes! Phoebe Cates as a grown woman is sexually repressed. Yes! So she never touched his dick? I think she's touched his dick. Of course she did. Because he's like, oh, you're... What was that? By the way, Paul, is that your definition of a woman coming to God? What is happening? What is happening? What is happening? What are we doing? What is this? What are we doing? This is irresponsible.

This is outrageous. I'm so disturbed that you just said that. We can't live like this. What I was saying was Fred seems so shocked at seeing a penis. But Paul, no, what you're saying, what you just said. Yes, June. Yes, June. What you just said and implied is that for her to be

sexually awake in her own body, the only way we would know that is if she touched a dick or not? Yes! No, no, no. You go fuck yourself, my friend. Do not put words in my mouth. Team Fred! Team Fred! Team Fred! Team Fred! Team Fred! Team Fred! Do not put words in my mouth. All I was saying was the way that Fred reacted to sex and looked at sex is...

Was not Phoebe Cates' like version. She's totally repressed sexually. It was a child's view of sex. So he is stunted. So he is Phoebe Cates as a child, even though Phoebe Cates has lived a life. And we've seen flashbacks where she's all over him every morning. Yeah, and shaving him. Yeah.

Which was so weird. She doesn't shave him every morning. Yeah, that was the thing. Every morning, this is what they do. Does she shave him every morning? And she's all over him every morning. That would be a wild routine. Ma'am, your name, Team Fred, Team Sanity, and your question. Hold the mic. Ronak, and I'm clearly Team Sanity.

Paul, I know you are somehow sussing these people out. Yes. We need another team Fred question after this. It's not hard to find them. There's one question over here on your side. I don't trust Paul's picking. I think you are selectively choosing. I'm picking great people. The questions are the gangbusters. We'll get to the balcony in a second. Balcony, you better represent.

I have a question specifically for Jason. So at one point you said, and I paraphrase, that Fred is the physical manifestation of her id, of her most primal instincts. That is basically the premise for Big Mouth. And what I'm asking is, how do you not understand that these people live in a separate plane when you are in a show that is also based on that very premise? Bam, bam, bam. And Jason is down. And Jason.

Wow. I think you have, I think you are misrepresenting, it is not an equal comparison. Not at all. I'm also on Big Mouth, by the way. Yeah. June also on Big Mouth and you're great on it.

I think, and I think those, in the Venn diagram of those two shows, I of course think there is overlap. But Big Mouth Puzzle is a world in which there is a Monsters, Inc. style infrastructure for the hormone monsters. Multiple kids can see the same hormone monsters. There is a magical realism to it that they all participate in. And I think that this, those are not imaginary friends.

Those are not manifestations of each kid's thing. Those are people that come to those kids to help guide them through puberty. Fred is an imaginary friend, and I think we can all agree a child's imaginary friend comes out of their psyche. It does not come and is not imposed on them. An imaginary friend is not given to a child. A child manifests as an imaginary friend. Do we all agree with that? Can we agree on that? Because I am concerned.

By the way, not enough people are clapping. Not enough at all. I think I would say that yes, but this movie doesn't posit that. Wow, this is the most divisive movie in How Did This Get Made history. Yeah, it is problematic to have a team sanity, and I put that in quotation marks today.

asking for questions from Team Fred. All right, why don't you hop on up and get up there? June, we should have a rep out there taking questions. I'm just saying. It doesn't feel right. Both of you are afraid to come up here. I just know they'll try and touch me. All right. Because that's what Team Freds do. Honestly, we know how many Team Sanity members are in the audience. It's not safe for us out there. Yeah. All right. And the Team Fred people are going to try and touch our boobs and butts.

All right. By the way, this is the T-shirt. We need to make two T-shirts here. One that says Team Fred and one that says Team Sanity. That is it. That is, right? That's got to be it. All right, ma'am, your name, your team, your question. Amelia, I'm Team Sanity. And my question is really for the Team Fred people, I guess. You're saying that Fred is Phoebe Cates.

Yeah, we've said it a number of times. People are still struggling to comprehend. But at the end, there's another little girl who has dropped dead Fred as her imaginary friend. And Phoebe Cates cannot see him. Right. It's still dropped dead Fred, so he has transferred to another child. Yes, yet you're saying that she came up with him. How do you reconcile that?

Great question, team. Sanity. So then you're saying this movie is not a movie about imaginary friends that represent the psychology of the child that they are with. These are imaginary friends who just cycle through children and do shit? Yes. That's the Monsters, Inc. I honestly... What? No, no, no. That's crazy. That's my wife's name. So... No, no, no. I don't know.

And I want you to examine that. You guys are stupid. Sit down. Sir. I want you to examine this. You're simpletons if that's what you think. And honestly, why are you... What? Then it can't be based on her father. Then it can't be based on her father. What? No. What are you...

Why are you centering Fred and not Phoebe Cates? Yes, this is the story of her, not its... Oh, boy. That movie is not called Drop Dead Phoebe Cates. It's called Drop Dead Fred. It's his journey. You're representing the patriarchy. We are toppling it. Ma'am, your name? First of all, let's get into that moment with that little girl since everybody's so troubled by it.

We don't see that it's Fred. We don't know that it's Fred. I'm sorry. It could be a projection. What? It could be a projection of Phoebe Cates assuming it's Fred. No, we do. No, Phoebe Cates can't see him. June, June, they showed us other friends in the psychiatrist's office. They're just as capable of showing us another friend with that little girl. But do we see Fred with her? We do. Where is he? Here's the thing. Here's what I'm going to say. I didn't see him. Here's what I'm going to say. That's because I'm...

Fred. The last image of the movie is the creepiest image of all time. It's a freeze frame on a girl like... This image. That's when I cried. That's when I cried. We didn't see him. When I realized that Fred was going to help another little girl who is in a split house. But you're just proving your own point. He's going to go on and help another friend because he's not from her psyche. He's just a fucking weird ass guy. Guys. Guys. Guys. Guys.

I'm putting my finger up to you, Paul. And I'm loving it. That, I believe, I will agree. That muddies the, I still think it's a story of an imaginary friend. But I think the movie allows in a bit of magical realism at the end so that Phoebe Cates can feel as though that other young girls going through the same struggle. She doesn't know. And honestly, that's what elevates this movie. Yes! That moment elevates it.

It's not just about listen to me, Paul. It's not just her own journey. It's about a political statement and her looking at other young girls who are coming up after her. And she's thinking to herself, I've got to lift as I rise. That girl's just as fucked up as me. And she's

happy and relieved that another little girl is not in a prison of like expectations can i just say something jim can i just say something isn't it more powerful though than at the end if she saw it was drop dead fred and she's like now cool because then she'd be like the best stepmom because she sees drop dead fred no that's you've misunderstood the movie entirely

She needs to let go of that. That's inappropriate to still have an imaginary friend as an adult, to not have integrated those components of yourself into an adult psychology. It's inappropriate. I'm not saying that he has to work with her, but she could acknowledge that it exists. Wait, sorry? We cannot see you, Paul. Sorry. I'm up in the balcony. Say it again.

But I was saying that like, not that he's going to be with her forever, but just that she could see him because they had like, why do you need that? Why do you need that? That's your need. Phoebe Cates doesn't need to see him anymore. Because what Phoebe Cates has seen is herself.

You mean when she made out with Fred? But clearly Fred's like, I can't be separate from her. I gotta fucking jump the closest I can. I'm gonna jump to that dude who I think is a lady to his kid. So in the off chance that Phoebe Cates is around, I'll still get my juice and I can look up her skirt like a fucking perv. Like Fred doesn't let go of her.

I disagree. Fred, Fred could go anywhere. In that whole scene, Fred is only paying attention to the new little girl that he's helping. No, he looks at her. He doesn't? I want to pull it off. I didn't even see him in that scene. I think, because he's... That's how much work I've done on myself. You no longer see Fred. I'm in a full body sweat.

Ma'am, your name, your team, your question. Alyssa, and honestly at this point I have no idea. I've gone back and forth so many times. But, so continuing on with the little girl, like...

Phoebe Gates, in the very beginning when Fred showed up, he's like, you're not happy. I can't leave until you're happy. So he shows up to little girls who are unhappy and in psychologically abusive households because that mother was psychologically abusive. No, she wasn't. I don't think, she said, I don't think I love you as much as I used to to a five-year-old. But he was there, but he went before that. That was the end. Because where did she pop up?

That's the end of the relationship. My question is, he can only be there when she's unhappy. Mickey or Mikey, the guy, he reminded her, he would show up whenever your mom was especially herself or a mega bitch. Now I'm thinking, drop dead friends with his little girl, is he a psychologically abusive person? Great question. June. That's a great question because what bothered me about the movie...

you guys love this aspect of like Fred you guys are acting like Fred comes in and is just like silly and crazy and messy and pushing the limits Fred is so fucked up

Like, it's not enjoyable. I want to be very clear about this. I am saying that Fred represents what is fucked up about growing up. Sex, death, grief, loss. These are the things he talks about. Pooping and puking and sex and fucking. I would argue that Fred is a representation of the horror of being a body. I'm dead serious. His fascination with boogers and...

Well, these are all things. All of that stuff that he is a full representation of the horror of being a physical body in space. I think he's also representative of a thing like of the kid things that you're supposed to either be leaving behind as you grow up or the things that are scary to you as you're a kid and learning about them.

So you're obsessed with boogers and farts and poops and all that and making messes and mud pies and all the rest. And then also looking ahead and being like, what is sex about? What is all this? What does it mean to like feel this stuff or know this stuff about the adults in my life or about my own desires or urges? I don't think Mickey is abusive. Let's just clear this up.

I don't think... Wait, Charlie? No, who's the... Oh, Ron Eldarty? Yes, whatever his name is. I don't think he's an abusive parent, but that child has gone through something traumatic, which is the loss of her parents as a couple. They're divorced. And his look... Yes, yes.

So, of course, that child has created this other person to help her through this. Right, which is... So she's created the exact same person that Phoebe Cates has, or as our learned audience member pointed out, that when little girls are unhappy, Fred visits them like fucking Santa Claus. Wow. This is so interesting to me. Listen...

You know what? Again, I don't care. I just wish it was an enjoyable version of whatever we're saying. What's so interesting is like, it's such a... We get around and we go. When's this show over?

I'm so curious that for the vast majority of you, you see Fred as an independent character in the movie. Because he's presented like that. Whose intent is like sexual manipulation and or abuse. You nailed it. Thank you, Jason. All right. Name your team. That is wild. My name is Phil. I am team Fred all the way. Nice. Thank you. We're losing people. I know.

As we go, we are losing. If you were assigned an imaginary friend in your adulthood, what actor would you like to play them? Great question. I mean, I got mine. The Rock. Marsha Mason. Honestly, Fred himself. The Swedish pop singer Robin? I mean, I would like to spend some time on the kiss between Phoebe Keats and Fred at the end. I'd love to. The goodbye kiss.

Because I was, and I've seen this movie a number of times, and each time it surprises me and delights me. I just love it. Because you're not expecting a kiss on the lips. No, you're not. You're not. No, I agree. It's off-putting. Yeah, you're definitely expecting it. I agree, it's weird. I didn't find it weird at all. I loved it. And I loved it because it was, to me, her...

coming into her own as a woman. What I will give you is that it wasn't sexual. It was very weird. He was like, and obviously we have to kiss. She's like, of course, of course. It wasn't sexual at all, and yet it was a little bit. Is that when you were attracted to them both? I was attracted to Fred several times throughout the movie. June, when you were young and watching this movie, did this movie make an impact on you sexually? Absolutely. When I tell you...

When I tell you guys I was attracted to Fred, I was attracted to Fred. I am attracted to Fred. Because I like, and I think it is, I like a movie that has young people in it. But see, I think that you guys, it's so interesting, you guys are consumed with Fred because he's saying dirty things, doing dirty things, cursing, that he is like,

a threat or a villain to a child, but really like children think and know this stuff. And he's just a representation of that understanding and that curiosity. I think.

I think to say... I totally agree. To say that kids... Kids, to neuter... If you made this movie now, it would be neutered. It would be just silly jokes, silly jokes. It wouldn't allow for kids to have the complexity of thought to be like, I'm understanding now other stuff about the world. And not to go back to Big Mouth, but that is what I do like about Big Mouth. Season three. Season three. Is that Big Mouth

does seek to understand or look at the fact that kids in different ways, shapes, and forms look at all of this stuff and are curious about and are trying to figure it out. Okay, if you don't see Fred, again, we're saying the same things over and over and we're screaming them at each other. But if you don't see Fred as Phoebe Cates and a projection of her own self, then of course he seems predatory.

But if you see him, if you look a little bit closer, guys, expand your mind. If we do the word a little bit. June, I've just had a realization. We're never ever going to convince Marsha Mason that Fred is real. This audience is Marsha Mason's. Wow. On that note, you're all the mom.

On that, I will say this. Happy to be. I finally lost them. Crazy. What's happened tonight is crazy. There is a divide. There is a divide. But now there is going to be one voice heard, and that is the voice of a second opinion. Now it's time for Second Opinions. This film is one of a kind.

Though Fred was more than I could handle But this brought me joy and happiness So for all this, I give it five stars It's my love this damn night Give it up for Hailey! Thank you so much.

All right. These are five-star reviews from Amazon, and I'm going to say that the tenor of our discussion is reflected in these reviews. This is going to be the first time I'll have agreed with a lot of these opinions. Yes.

This is a review that stood out because it has a very capable explanation of Phoebe Cates' psyche. This is Nate Kiley, who, of course, found all these reviews. And this is Carl J. Schroeder, and he wrote...

The imaginary friend is cavortingly rude for a reason. He served to push the girl child to do mischief for attention and as a cry for help. Now grown up, the woman has forgotten and is about to lose her soul. So events call for some sort of a literal return of her demon to force the exposure of her pain.

Five stars. Agree. Team Fred.

This is written by Evan M. Title is "I Love It." "Used to watch this movie when I was a kid. I freaking loved it. I saw it on Amazon and had to have it. It's nice being able to get some of the jokes I didn't catch when I was little. I showed it to my little cousin. She's six."

She thought it was hilarious. There are some adult jokes that some would consider inappropriate for children, but kids have no idea what they're talking about and just ignore it. It's really for the adults. Plus, if a kid did understand the jokes, I'm sure they'd probably know way worse. Great movie, good for everyone, five stars. Again, it's not lost on me that agreeing with second opinions is troubling.

Like, I recognize that I find myself in a position where I'm like, yeah, I would show this to a six-year-old. I would show this to my nieces. Like, I do bits with my nieces that Fred does, like, getting it. So we had a conversation today, because we have a five-year-old, and Paul had watched most of the movie before I started it. I've already seen it a number of times. And I said, oh, well, Gus can watch it with me, right? And Paul had a pretty terrible reaction to that. LAUGHTER

She's like, no, he's not going to watch a movie where he goes, that piece of shit. Would you let your five-year-old watch Beetlejuice? No. Oh, okay. Not yet. Five is young. I guess five is young. All right, this is from Autistic. Would you let your five-year-old watch A Clockwork Orange? It depends what age you want. For unspooled. Hey, if it's for unspooled, definitely. This one right here. He'd be like, what does Amy think of it, Dad?

All right, this is one. This is a run written by Autistic Werewolf. "Drop Dead Fred" is a movie about growing up as an empowered person, in this case, an empowered woman. The core premise of this movie is that you must take full, responsible, constant ownership of yourself and your life, or else suffer the humorous and/or disastrous consequences. Now, the next part, all in caps,

Enjoy life as a child would. Let go at times. Be real. Stop creating artificial worlds that are cages in which you deposit yourself until death.

Step out into the world, embrace fun and change by the simple act of never living to please others. Help others love others, but live for yourself and take some time in life to just please yourself because sometimes life is a blast. Five stars. Don't you want to live in that movie?

You guys are saying, I mean, that's great. That's what I want. Yes. Mitchell Friedman writes, Sentimental? Yes.

The irony of our modern time is that it's okay to show mean-spiritedness and violence in films. Think of that putz, Quentin Tarantino. Careful, counselor. Or humor that's based on a point of view of up yours, loser, Seinfeld.

to have humor based on sympathy or feelings of powerlessness and our generalized fears of the world. Heaven forbid. Five stars. I mean, I don't like the shots at Tarantino or Seinfeld, but like, again, I don't disagree with the message. Which is chilling.

I mean, it's not lost on me. This is very strange to agree so much with the second opinions. And then we end on quite simply one of my favorite five-star reviews I've read. It's a real journey. Jay Reynolds writes this. Title is, you have to be careful what you tell them. When my stepkids were 11 and 9, they loved this movie. Stepkids. Yes.

And I did too. During one viewing, they asked me why someone would have an imaginary friend. Both said they never had one, and I told them that based on what we're seeing in "Drop Dead Fred," children invent imaginary friends because they are having hard times with childhood. They might have sad family problems or mean parents. Inventing an imaginary friend is apparently one way to cope with such conditions. Well, the kids took this information to school with them and spread it all around.

Seems like a few of the kids in their social orbits or had or in the past had imaginary friends. So all of a sudden it's rumored in the school that these kids come from abusive or problematic homes with bad or mean mothers. You guys are doing this to kids. I'm not the moron who's walking up to kids and being like, here's everything.

Children were upset, teachers were worried, parents were outraged, and so forth. Oh, outrage culture. And it all got blamed on me. Drop Dead Fred is a terrific movie, but if your kids ask you any questions about imaginary friends, just tell them, you don't know. Listen...

I don't know what's gone on here tonight. This has been a rollercoaster. I am exhausted and I've lost my voice again, I'm saying. I really feel so destabilized by this evening. I'm dehydrated. But I just want to point out that I don't think, I think developing an imaginary friend in a child's psyche is the healthiest thing that child could do. I had one. What? Go on. You bring this up now? Go on. What was this character's name?

If this person had one. Or a thing. I don't want to get into it. Oh. Then let's not. Let's leave it there, honestly. That is, by the way, that you had an imaginary friend and are still team sanity is chilling. It shows how fucking crazy you guys are. When I became an adult, I put away my childhood. Yeah, polymer adult. Maya Angelou, I think. The thing that's so sad about...

Some of the opinions I've heard tonight is this distinction you feel you have to make between your adult self and your childhood self. As though they're not one and the same. As if we are all not the same. We contain multitudes. But I...

I don't know how to get out of this tonight. I just, I want, I know, I know, I just want to give you two facts about this movie before we really sum up because these are really great facts. This movie is the gift that keeps on giving. Um,

So this is an IMDb fact, and Nate rewrote it here. It goes, the scene where Polly tapes up the jack-in-the-box containing Fred was based off an actual incident that happened to a friend of the co-writer-executive-producer. Apparently, her mother, Gloria, had an imaginary friend when she was a little girl, but the mothers couldn't stand the fact that her daughter had an imaginary friend. It got to the point where Gloria's mother took the imaginary friend and flushed it down the toilet. LAUGHTER

And this instrument traumatized the young girl for years. Yes, it did. That fact is true. That's what happened. That supports Team Fred, I feel like. And then this is just a little history of the movie. So the two writers of the film brought it to Disney. They wanted Goldie Hawn to be in it.

and Disney said no, they didn't want Rick Mayall in it. So then they started working with this Dutch filmmaker. Can I interrupt for one second? They wanted Goldie Hawn as Fred? No, I think as Phoebe Cates. Okay, okay, okay. I didn't know it because you said they wanted Rick Mayall, and I was like, oh, did they want... No, they didn't want Rick Mayall, so I think it was going to be like... I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Instincts should have been followed.

So then they brought it over to a different place. It fell apart. Then basically they made the film. It gets really ripped apart, rough cut. Basically every film studio turns down the movie after seeing the rough cut. The Geffen Film Company was like, it's Beetlejuice. It's a ripoff of Beetlejuice. Harvey Weinstein's like, I liked it, but does not buy it. Interesting. Nice.

Probably for the wrong reasons. Probably for the wrong reasons. Then Robert Shea saw the movie. He's at New Line and he calls the movie horse shit. Although his partner, Sarah, liked the movie. She's like, oh, Fred's like the comedic Freddy Krueger. And we do the Freddy Krueger movies. And since Freddy's ending, this would be a great continuation of a Freddy Krueger franchise. That makes sense.

So they bought it, and then they're like, how do we market it? And they didn't know. That's why this movie cost $6.7 million. Opening weekend made $3 million, and finally came in at $13 million at the end. It came in 81st place in all the movies that came out in 1981, the top three movies in 1991. So it made its money back in then some.

Sure. And made an enormous impact on an entire generation of people. Movies in 91, Terminator 2, Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, and Beauty and the Beast. Beat by Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, Hudson Hawk, Highlander 2. It beat a movie we did on the show, Body Parts. It beat Nothing But Trouble. It beat Mannequin 2 on the move. And Cool as Ice. So this movie is doing a little bit better. And one of the original taglines, this is the best one,

Let him out! And the other one is this. Dishes, relationships, wind. This guy breaks everything. Terrible. I mean, I have some notes on the movie, I guess. I'm not, I'm not, I don't agree with every move, but. Final thoughts on the film?

I feel like we all learned a lot tonight about ourselves. And I don't think we got, we circled the drain a lot. We got some places and we fell back. I'm exhausted. I have respect for everyone on this stage. I do too. I want to say that right now. I have respect for everyone out here. Would you recommend people watch the movie? No, I would not. Okay. June? Or should we end on June? Because I feel like you're the most passionate. No. Listen, I don't know where we go from here.

So I'm trying to find a way out. I want everybody to get free. Of Fred. You know? But we can only be on the journeys we're on. You know, I think this movie provides a really nice on-ramp for a lot of y'all. But we are where we are. And I think I met a lot of you tonight where you are. And I'm just hoping for the best. And, you know, prayers are up.

I'm not even going to ask if you're going to recommend this movie because clearly you do. I think I've said what I've said. Tall, I recommend this movie.

I recommend this movie wholeheartedly. I think everybody should watch it. I think everybody should watch it with an open mind if you haven't watched it. Watch it not just from the point of view of a movie viewer in this time right now as if this movie had just come out. Look at it from when it came, from who it's intended for, and what's going on. I think it's really... I really enjoy it. Again, I thought this was going to be straight-up trash. I thought it was going to be nonsense. A lot of you think it is. This is not helping. This is not helping.

This is not happening. I didn't like this. That's the biggest comedic moment in the movie. That's the biggest comedic bit in the movie. I'm not saying the movie is flawless. I'm not saying the movie is... Are you saying it's funny? There's some funny stuff in it, sure. I thought it was funny. I did think there was funny stuff in it. Absolutely. This was not funny. This is... This was a little bit funny. What he's referring to is the referent of Flathead. This is like Garbage Pail Kids level gross. Flathead. But there

moment even in this where he brushes his brow relieved that he survived and then goes back to realize how white his face is it's not unfunny he delivers it I still you know what I'll say I enjoyed this movie I think partially because there's still a kid alive in me and I think that a lot of you out there

I'm sad to say that your inner kid is R.I.P. Dunzo. Jason, you guys are... And I feel for you. Jason, you're fashioning it like last thing. You know, like, we've all lost our inner child or whatever. I think there's a lot of Fred still with you guys, and it's actually concerning me. Here's the thing. Let him go. Let him go. You guys are saying... You guys are saying you agree with the mom?

and Matheson. The villains of the movie. And the judge. And the judge. So great. So that's where you guys live. And the guy that said wet dreams. If you're saying you guys live in that world and I live in Fred world, guess what? I'm living that same

Fred life, guys! Annabella, Annabella, Annabella. Let me tell you this. I recommend this movie not because of the reasons that you just heard from my two co-hosts. I recommend it because this is in line with the Babadook. Okay? This is a modern-day horror.

This is not a coming of age. This is a what the fuck just happened. Toni Collette, amazing in the Babadook. Marsha Mason, better.

This movie should be seen. This is an Ari Aster movie 30 years before. Wait, you mean Hereditary. You mean Hereditary. No, I mean Babadook, but I'm also saying, I'm also jumping over because Babadook is like a guy who pops up. Hereditary, there's nobody getting their head knocked off. Anyway, so, spoiler alert.

This was a wild one. I'm just wondering if we can get the word out to the podcast listeners before this episode airs that they should see the movie. Yes. Because what I don't want to happen is for someone to be introduced to the movie through this podcast. Because I...

I don't like what's gone on here tonight. I agree because I want people to feel sound in their choices at their team sanity and not be influenced. And here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I'm going to say. I think that this, and again, I apologize for coming in so hot for so long, and I love each and every one of you. I have nothing but respect for everyone. And I've loved this episode. And for the first time, I think, in the entirety of this podcast, I will

try and divide the audience by saying when this episode comes out, please, I guess, tweet at us, Team Fred. Just buy the shirts, Team Fred or Team Sanity, and we will see you on the street, and we will look at you and say, And here's the thing. I can already tell that Team Sanity is going to outsell, perhaps. You know what? Probably not, because Team Sanity won't buy T-shirts. Yeah.

Because they're too busy putting on their suits and packing their briefcases. We will run a poll. We will run a poll on our Twitter when this episode comes out. Casey, anything you want to talk about? No, just I'm Bitch Sesh and I'm in a movie called Always Be My Maybe and Black Monday. Thanks for having me. June, Diane, Rayfield. So...

Season 5 of Grace and Frankie is out on Netflix right now. And you can also, at your independent bookstores, ask them to pre-order a book that I co-wrote with Kate Black called Represent the Women's Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World, which will officially be out on September 3rd. And how much of the book is devoted to Fred? Oh, 98%.

Jason? Well, as has been discussed tonight, season three of Big Mouth comes out in September this year. I'm not sure when this episode will come out, so check that out. Other seasons are on Netflix. And that's about it.

I will say I've been writing a comic book for Marvel called Cosmic Ghostwriter Destroys Marvel History that is out in the comic book stores and stands whatever you call that and watch Black Monday and you know make sure you follow us on all the social channels a lot of people complain that they don't know when we're doing live shows and we announce it all so follow me follow June Jason's not on Twitter Casey has a you know thing June creates a lot of great content I'm

I love creating content. We're having so much fun in our house. I love creating content. I'm happy to be contentless. If I'm not creating content, I'm like not alive, barely. I also want to just give a shout out to the person who I saw yesterday who just drove by me and yelled, nice minivan. It is a nice minivan. It is a nice minivan.

And I wasn't insulted by that. And I want to... I fucking love my minivan. I want to give a shout out to all the people who are screaming... Christ of Pacifica life. Sorry. I do want to give a shout out to all the people who are screaming Geostorm at us out in the world. Yes.

It's not, it's not the worst. And here's what I'll say. I'm enjoying also that people are getting their children to yell geostorm in videos, especially if that child is in a storm. So please make more weird videos of you and your kids yelling geostorm. We are on tour right now. So if anyone wants to edit together a compilation of those geostorms, I'll take it. Uh,

All right, people, before we go, I want to just say a big thanks to Averill Halley who cut all of these amazing clips, Nate Kiley who did all this amazing research, Cody Fisher, one of our producers.

up there in the engineer booth. Everybody, just a fantastic job all around. The staff here at the Wilshire Ebell Theater. What a great crowd you all were. You guys, you guys were amazing. You guys, this was a lot. Honestly, I would like to issue an apology about what I said about, you know, when I said people who can't be alone with their own thoughts listen to podcasts. Or when you said I don't give a fuck what they think. I know.

I know. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. This has been, we've been here a long time. Yeah. We've been screaming at you for all of it. Our sincerest apologies, but also fuck you guys. Fuck you. You're a fantastic crowd. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, everybody. That was our show from the Ebell Theater. A big thank you to Casey Wilson, who is really on the right side of history here with me. We are both Team Sanity. You can actually purchase those shirts right now at tpublic.com slash stores slash HDTGM. Or if you're with Jason and June, you can get your Team Fred shirt.

uh, but head on over there. Uh, they're great looking shirts and you can wear it and people will question. What do you mean if you just have a shirt that says team sanity or team Fred? I love it so much. A big thank you to Averill Hallie, our producer who picked all of our movies, uh, for this tour and, and picks all the movies for this entire show. So a big hats off to her. Um,

Nate Kiley, who's always getting into that research, doing it up. And why did the show sound so good? Well, it's our engineer, Devin, who just made it. Didn't it sound like we were in the studio? So damn good. Also our producer, Cody, who keeps everything running nice and smooth. Uh,

a big thank you to Flanagan who runs Largo, who produced our show at the e-bell. That staff was amazing. The e-bell theater was a beautiful place for us to perform. We'll be doing these every now and then, uh, when we want to make sure that you can come out and see us. So we do it in a bigger venue. Uh,

but thank you to everybody at Airwolf and we will see you next week for a mini episode where you can weigh in on whether or not you think Fred is in the right or in the wrong, or talk to me about your life, your love, whatever you want to talk to me about. I'm here to listen. Give me a call at 619-Paul-Ask. That's 619-Paul-Ask. We'll jump in on the mini episode. We'll break it all down all for you next week as we talk about Drop Dead Fred. And we may even have a little surprise, uh, for something we want to do in the mini episode. So we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

♪ I'm just gonna be ♪ ♪ E-R-O ♪

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