18. Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon - The Missing Hikers
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Hey everybody, welcome back to our podcast. This is Murder With My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Dang, sometimes jumping into these things is so awkward. Don't you think a little bit? Yeah, I never know how to, I guess, start it. Because sometimes we just do the murder and sometimes we talk about ourselves. I know. Okay, write in and let us know. Do you guys want us to...

talk about ourselves kind of talk about our days what's been going on or do you like when we just jump right into the murder because i feel like we're back and forth we're always doing both whenever you say write in i think someone's gonna like send us a piece of mail or something you're like right in that'd be so cool i would love that i'd be freaking out if we got like a po box or something yeah i think i mean dm or whatever yeah i think are we setting up an email

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm getting a website and an email set up. Getting official. Yeah, we're going to set up an email and a website soon so that you guys can start emailing in. You can still DM us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because jumping right into that, we have had a ton of suggestion cases DMed into us lately, which is awesome. Like, please keep them coming. It makes it just...

It makes it more fun for me to know that you guys are kind of interested in what we're talking about. And I am working on getting to them. So don't think I'm ignoring you. It's just we've gotten a lot and I only do one a week. Well, I could change that. We could be doing two a week if you guys want to. But I'm only doing one a week. So it's kind of hard to get to all of them. But once we get an email set up, you guys could email them in and then they're all in the same place. And it's just a lot easier to go down the list that way. Yeah. I mean...

We really do love the DMs too because every time we're in the car, I feel like that's what our conversations are about. I'm like, oh, this person DMs. This is what they said. So yeah, you're normally talking to me, but Garrett, I read him almost every single DM that we get and we love them. I feel like we're making like so many friends. Yeah, it's super fun. It's weird because I'm like, I have a friend in Europe.

Like every, you're like, Oh, I have a friend in this state. Yeah. Oh, someone messaged me from this place. I love it. Yeah. It makes me feel cool. Yeah. It's been super fun. Thanks so much for sharing it and following us and all that jazz. Also upon request, we,

We posted a picture of our faces, like a face reveal. I don't know. That's what the younger kids call it these days. A face reveal on our social media. So go check it out if you haven't yet. I know sometimes when I listen to podcasts, I'm like dying to see if the faces match what I've pictured and they usually don't.

But yeah, go follow us, Murder With My Husband, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. We posted a picture of ourselves if you're interested in it. And yeah. Oh, before we start, I just wanted to say that

um for people that are new and that are listening maybe they haven't heard our podcast before i'd never hear these stories before it's the very first time so oh yeah i'll be researching whatever he has to leave the room he doesn't even want to be in the vicinity of whatever i don't want to know what's going on at all i want her to tell me surprised completely authentic totally right i want her to tell me exactly what's

I guess what's going on for the first time. And if you haven't listened before, um, jump back, go listen to our second episode. We actually don't have an episode one. We've gotten a couple of questions about that. We do not have an episode one. Well, we did, but it was really bad. And so no one was listening to the next one. So we just didn't have like our mics yet or anything. So we just took it off. Maybe one day we'll release it for kicks and giggles. I feel like even our first couple, we were still trying to figure out how to talk. There were definitely some awkward, I mean, there's

still is there's still times where it's a little awkward yeah but yeah no it's it's fun so anyways let's jump into this okay so nexpo n-e-x-p-o youtube channel did like a youtube video he's awesome he has a ton of subscribers he did a youtube video that covers this case all that's interesting.com reddit was vital in this case so i used it um cowdycaz.blogspot.com it was a blog and it was awesome like she had so much information on this case and

Quora there was like it's kind of like a reddit I guess there was a couple on there that I used strangeoutdoors.com and admin.biglobaltravel.com do you just type in google like to try to find this information or yeah so normally I just find the case I want to do just from our suggestions or I'm googling like on buzzfeed or whatever you know top 10 cases in this place or

you know mysterious cases that involve a chainsaw or you know just weird things that i'm like trying to get it mysterious cases that involve a penis no just kidding if you haven't listened to our penis episode yeah if you haven't listened to that episode then you probably think oh it's weird it's the lorena bobbitt episode you can find it anyways so this is the chris kramers and leanne frowne disappearance so let's start

Chris Kramers and Leanne Froon were two Dutch students from Amersfoort, Amersfoort, Amersfoort,

Someone from the Netherlands. Please tell me how to say that. In the Netherlands. They worked together and they lived in the same housing units. They were students. Leanne was tall, athletic, and had just graduated from university. That's college. They call it university. That's how it was when I was in Spain. Oh, really? Yeah, they call it university. Yeah, so from university in applied psychology, which is freaking cool. Like, I wish I could have studied psychology, but I was just a little too dumb.

She was smart and was known to be a little bit shy. She loved Coldplay.

And she kept a diary, which you can actually go and read online. Like her diary is uploaded online. Okay. Chris was shorter than Leanne. She had just finished studying cultural social education at university as well. Chris was the opposite of Leanne in that she was extroverted and outspoken. She had strawberry blonde hair. And I mean like strawberry blonde hair, the most strawberry blonde hair I've ever seen. She loved theater and arts and she liked the red hot chili peppers. This got me thinking because I've,

I thought it was interesting that they included this. If worst case scenario, Gare, say I go missing or something happens to me or whatever, what would you tell people my favorite music was?

Oh, that's a good question. Well, I mean, I can name some of your favorite artists. Yeah. What would you say? Like they named two of their favorite artists, but it was obviously from their family. We like Miguel a lot. Oh, I didn't even think of that one. Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. We'll leave it at that. I do like Miguel. Okay. Chris had a boyfriend though. Leanne didn't. And she also kept a diary. So both of them kept a diary. This was in 2014, by the way. I don't know if I said that. Okay. They had been working for months in the Netherlands. Okay.

saving up their money because they wanted to go on a trip together to celebrate graduating. It was going to be like a year off after such intense studying, like a gap year, I think is what you call it. So after six months of saving and planning, they decided to head to Panama.

In March of 2014. And all I know about Panama is like prison break. I think season three, they like break out of a prison in Panama. I really need to like listen to a geography podcast. There's actually quite a bit of history there. Yeah. I literally don't know anything about it. I'm so bad at geography, you guys. It's bad.

Their plan for this trip was to be part vacation and a part service trip. They were going to enjoy their time together in a new place, but also teach arts and crafts to some local students and attempt to learn Spanish. Fun fact, Garrett speaks Spanish fluently. I don't think we've ever mentioned that. I like to think I do too. I took three years of Spanish in high school, but all I can say is I need a burrito. So I'm not quite as good as Garrett, but you kind of

brought up Spain. Yeah. Yeah. I lived in Spain for two years. Um, basically that's how I speak Spanish fluently. I don't use it a ton. Um,

I mean, I wish I did because I'm sure I'm losing some of it. Yeah, I loved it. It was Spain was so much fun. Europe is awesome. If any of you guys have never been to Europe before, that's definitely something you should try to do at some point. Or if you're from Europe, reach out and I'll come stay with you. I have never been to Europe. I know. I need to take we need to go sometime. OK, anyway, so Chris and Leanne excited for their trip, head off to Panama with the best intentions. Upon arrival, they spend some time in Boca del Toro, I think is how I say that.

Working on their Spanish, sightseeing, and connecting with many men, two Dutch men whom they met claimed they spent a lot of time together during those first two weeks. So they were just kind of hanging out at the beach, learning Spanish, just relaxing for the first two weeks. Okay. They then traveled to Boquete, Panama, where their program with the children's school was to begin. On their first day, though, they show up and they're told, we won't need you for another week. Okay.

The girls were discouraged by this mess up. They had planned everything pretty meticulously and were anxious to kind of get started with the children's school. They just spent two weeks relaxing and, you know, having fun. They were staying with a host family in Alto Boquete for the next four weeks. And I guess that's just like a little section of the city.

And their host mother, I guess you could call her, claims that the girls were restless upon arrival and disappointed that they couldn't start teaching right away. They were asking what they should do for the next week with no plans in the city. When they woke up the next day, they went out and wandered the town. They came home that night with many tours planned for the rest of the week. So they were like, we're just going to explore the crap out of the city.

Yeah, because, I mean, they had a whole week, right, to just do whatever they want. So now, supposedly that day that they had gone out, they ran into a male tour guide who offered to tour the girls, like, through a hike that was near his ranch that he owned in the city. He said that they could, like, hike up to it, stay the night at the ranch, and then come back the next day. So...

Just because you've started to tell me so many of these stories, whenever there's like something that seems sketchy now, like, oh, this guy offered a tour. I'm like, oh, no. I know. You know? So the girls, though, actually declined the offer, but told him, you know, just take us up the hike, not to the ranch in two days. And I feel like maybe they just didn't want to sleep at his house, but they were like, oh, you can just you can tour us up the hike like you can. Got it.

You can lead us up, you know? So the next day on Tuesday, April 1st, 2014, Chris and Leanne decide to hike the Pianista Trail. This is the same trail that the tour guide from the day before was supposed to lead them up tomorrow. But instead they wake up the next day and decide to go on their own. So I don't know if they were just like brushing off the tour guide because they got. Did they, sorry, did they know that they were going on that? The tour was the same place as that they just went and hiked? Yes.

Yes. I think, I think they just were kind of like, we're just going to go do it by ourselves. Okay. Yeah.

I don't know. They didn't ever clarify like why they were supposed to go on the same hike with that Mel tour guide tomorrow. And they did it the day before by themselves at like, it just kind of said that. And it didn't like, that's kind of weird, you know? And I don't know if they were just brushing them off or whatever, but they wake up and decide to go on their own. This hike trail was pretty famous. Um, it ventured through the jungle and had many waterfalls that eventually led to a beautiful view of the city.

So there are some inconsistencies in this story from source to source and actually kind of a lot of them. So I'm going to try to do my best to name those as they come up. One of those was actually, some people said the hike was actually scheduled for that day and that they just left without them. And then some said it was scheduled for the next day. Like sources differed on that, but most of them said the next day. So that's the one I went with. Um,

This, another inconsistency was that Chris and Leanne brought a dog on this hike with them that day. But some sources say it was the host family's dog. Like they woke up and took the dog that was staying at the house with them on the hike. And others say there was like a local restaurant down at the beginning of the hike and those owners had a dog. And so when they took their taxi to the hike, they stopped by the restaurant and asked if they could take the dog from the restaurant up the hike with them and the owners let them. So...

I mean, I guess I have two questions. One is, does that seem a little odd that they would just take a dog to go hiking? Yes, but I think these girls...

From what it seems and from their diary entries, we're super trying to live up every single moment. They were talking to everybody. They were making friends. So I'm not surprised if they like went to the restaurant, talked to the owners and then was like, oh, is your dog just sitting here? We're going up the hike. Like, can we take him and we'll drop him off on our way down? You know, I don't know. Yeah. And then, so I guess my other, my other question would be, why is there so many inconsistencies? Cause this isn't in like 1930s. This is 2014. So I'm, what I'm guessing has happened is because it's,

These girls are Dutch and it's in Panama. The translation over to English for the case has been...

skewed and skewed like just little mistakes from the translation that's what i'm assuming has happened and i tried i did sources who were translating the you know the dutch news to the english version but i mean like you you've told me before that translating over isn't exactly word for word so i'm guessing that's what's happened okay but either way they bring a dog with them on this hike

They both had on light clothing, shorts and tanks, one backpack, one passport, money, both of their cell phones, a digital camera and one water bottle, which I kind of

like i don't know when we go on hikes we bring two water bottles just because we would run out of water if we shared one water bottle which makes me feel like they didn't plan on going very far this hike was one of those hikes where it's like in three sections so you go to the first one and you can hit a lookout and stop and turn around and go back or you can keep going more advanced hit a lookout and stop and go and then all the way to the top okay so i was wondering if maybe there

They were only going to the first lookout and then the next day they were going to do the whole thing with the tour guide or something because they didn't pack like they were planning. This hike is pretty intense if you're doing the whole thing. Like you go through the jungle. Do you know how many miles it is? Did it say? Oh, it didn't say. Well, it was in kilometers. Did it say how many kilometers? I don't think so. I don't think it said like the whole kilometers. It just kept saying the distance they were walking in kilometers. Oh, okay. But it didn't say like this whole hike was this many kilometers. Okay.

So the girls IM'd Chris's boyfriend and let him know that they were going to go on a hike and post it on Facebook that they were exploring that day. It wasn't until later that night. I'm sorry, they IM'd? Instant messaged. Oh. Oh, sweetie. Oh, I was just really confused. I guess because they're using Facebook is what I'm assuming. So she instant messaged him. Oh, man, I'm getting old. Oh, man. Well, I thought you meant IM is like.

Like back when I was 10 years old, I would like AIM people. Oh, oh, oh, I'm too young for that. I don't know what that is either. Never mind. Just keep going. So it wasn't until later that night when whoever owned the dog, the restaurant or the host family grew suspicious because the dog returned on their own without the girls. Now, I couldn't find if the owners were home and the dog wandered home by himself without the girls or

Or if the dog was returned home and the owners came home and was like, what? Like how the dog, like the dog at home. I think that this detail of knowing what,

which is which is important i was really frustrated i couldn't find the answer because i think it would sway my opinion on this case if i knew whether that dog was returned home or wandered home by himself okay i'm excited to see why chris and leanne's host family were worried when the girls didn't come home for the night but decided to wait it out these girls were adults after all the next day rolled around and the girls had still not returned they missed an appointment with who i'm presuming was either the same male or another tour guide and

And I can't tell if this is the next day or the next day. Like I said, these were... This happened. I just don't know if it was second day or third day. Okay. But the tour guide shows up to the host family's house to look for the girls. Like, hey, I was supposed to have an appointment with them. Oh. Isn't that weird? Yeah, that is weird. I think that's weird. I mean, I guess it depends how small maybe the town or city is. If it's a small town, it's like, hey, we know everyone in the town. We're staying at this host family. Yeah. But I just feel like if they just didn't show up, you'd be like...

On to my next tour in a couple hours. Like if it was a company, they'd be like, oh, they're canceled. I don't know. I find that weird. But also, I've never been to Panama. I don't know if that's like, like you said, the culture of the town is that way. Totally could be. Later that day, authorities and the girls' families are contacted. The authorities were contacted by this male tour guide as well.

Okay. So April 3rd, three days after Chris and Leanne left for their hike, local police searched the forest with some help from locals. The girls' families were worried. They too had not heard from the girls since the first day, which was out of the norm. Like these girls messaged and called them all the time while they were on vacation.

Now, police were pretty absent in this case at the beginning, which sucks because the first 48 hours of a missing person are crucial. But they didn't really look for the girls in the first 48 hours. When the girls' parents could tell that not much was being done and had still not heard anything by the 6th, which is six days later because they went missing on the 1st. That's a long time. They hopped on a plane and flew out with some detectives from the Netherlands. So they like took local detectives and flew out to Panama. Oh, wow.

I think this is happening from the research I was looking at, and this was from Dutch News. The Panama authorities are pretty closed off, don't work well with others, which is why they brought in their own to do the investigating. Okay. Instead of just like trusting that the Panama police were going to investigate it for them.

So upon arrival, this was the first real intense search for the girls, the family, and the new police lasting 10 days. The parents offered a $30,000 reward. But even after this exhausting attempt, hiking up and down that hike, trying to find out there was still no sign of either girl or even a clue as to what happened to them. So now it's been 16 days. Yes. 16 days. Okay. Yes.

days more days weeks and then months go by with nothing this is so devastating these girls literally just left on this hike and disappeared these tourist girls

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So I just can't even imagine how like frustrating because normally there's like a clue. Like normally there's at least something that's like, well, they might've went, you know, here or whatever. And there was just nothing. Well, like you said earlier, they obviously weren't going to go far. They didn't have a tent. They didn't, they were just going to go for a day hike and then come back maybe a couple hours. It seemed like they only had one water bottle. They didn't even bring food. I don't think. Yeah. So, so,

So it wasn't until 10 weeks later when a local woman found Leanne's. Okay. A local tribal woman. It was like a tribe in Panama. Okay. So they were on a res or whatever. Found Leanne's backpack on a rice paddy by the river. Do you know what a rice paddy is? Yes. I don't know what a rice paddy is. Well.

I think I do. Isn't it like one of those things that floats in the water? Oh, is that a... No, that's not a rice paddy. Is that a lily pad? Yeah, it's a lily pad. Oh my gosh. I don't know what a rice paddy is. Well, I'm pretty sure rice paddy is just because you grow rice in a bunch of water. So it's just a field of a bunch of rice. Okay, okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. So this local woman found it, the backpack, Leanne's backpack, and...

on this rice paddy. It was where this backpack was found was a 14 hour walking distance away from where the girls had last been seen. Holy crap. So, so these girls went far. That's why it was on a res. They went into different territory and a local native woman found it and called authorities. That's a really long time. Oh yeah. 14 hours. The first, I mean, it had been 10 weeks.

Yeah, that's true. The first suspicious thing noticed about the backpack was the condition. It was completely dry, intact, and fairly clean in the middle of a rice paddy filled in water. So it was almost like it had been set.

There not like floated up onto there got it It had been raining like this whole 10 weeks since the girls have been missing It had been raining on and off not to mention if the backpack had floated down the river for 72 days That's how many days it had been it would have wear and tear it would be muddy And and it was perfectly clean the woman who found the bag insists. It wasn't there the day before she worked out there She was like I I was just out here yesterday and this bag was not here

the when police opened the bag they discovered that everything inside was also dry and working the backpack was not waterproof it should it should have gotten wet been muddy stuff inside should have shown similar signs as well the items inside were the girls bras both folded neatly on top of each other two pairs of sunglasses an empty water bottle both chris and leanne's cell phones chris had an iphone and leanne had a galaxy

The digital camera without its lens cap, Leanne's passport, Chris's medical insurance card, and some money. No keys because they should have their keys to their host family's house and no wallets were found. So I have a question. So the bras were those bras that they had worn and had on or extra bras? They were wearing them the day of the hike. Oh, okay.

34 fingerprints were found on the items. 13 on the backpack, 12 on the phone and camera and 6 on the bras. Oh my gosh, I can't believe they can find that many fingerprints. These leads were never investigated by the Panama Police Department and they refused to turn them over to any outside police departments. So they're holding the DNA in the fingerprints and won't give them to the Dutch authorities. I already have a theory, but I'll...

You'll hold it? I'll hold it. I'll wait. Well, no, tell me. What's your theory? Well, I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I mean, I would assume some type of drug trade, drug cartel, something of that matter. You're not alone in that theory. Which is why I think the authorities didn't hand anything over. Yeah, you're not alone in that.

You're so smart. The first thing I'm going to discuss is the fact that the girls took their bras off. I mean, like, I hate wearing my bra. I take mine off the second I get home. But I do feel like if I was lost in the jungle, like I was hiking and I got lost somewhere,

I would keep it on. I can't speak for them, but my other thought is that maybe they weren't the ones who took their own bras off and folded them into the backpack. Yeah, it's sad. So let's dive into the information found on the cell phones as this was kind of the only stuff they had to go on in order to find the girls. Within hours of starting the hike...

While it was still light out at 4.39 p.m., a call is attempted on one of the cell phones to the Dutch emergency number 112, which is 911. Ten minutes later, another attempt was made to the same line. Panama emergency number is 911, just like the USA. But even if the call had gone through on the 112 line, it wouldn't have mattered because it's...

It still works there. So like say they called one, one, two for the Dutch line, even though they're in Panama, it just would have redirected to nine, one, one. Like they work in sync. Got it. They tried nine, one, one after those calls. Um, but then it doesn't go through and the phones are switched off. It's not going through because they don't have connection. Okay. So they try to call nine, one, one or one, one, two, whatever, um,

While it was still light outside on their hike. Okay. What? I was going to say, do you know how many times they called? I think that first time it was just two times and then they shut their phones off. Okay.

14 hours later, the phones are turned back on and more attempts are made to 911 and 112. On Wednesday, the following morning, calls were attempted at 6.58 a.m., 8.14 a.m., 10.53 a.m., and 1.56 p.m. Both of the girls' phones were used, so they're both using their phones to try to call 911.

And they switched back and forth calling 112-911. During the attempt of the 658 call, Leanne's Galaxy actually connects with the 112 line for one to two seconds, but then loses connection immediately. The phones were then switched off and they were also switched off in between each call.

the phones were turned on less and less so the calls are getting less and less and by day five the galaxy phone dies completely loses battery after the galaxy died the phone the iphone was turned on but the incorrect pin code was being entered into the iphone they tried many many times entering the wrong code oh so obviously it

Well, it wasn't her. It wasn't Chris entering the code. Yeah, it couldn't have been. Chris's iPhone was in use until April 11th without the pin code entered. It was still being, it was still, cause you know how you can emergency call. So they kept trying to enter the wrong pin code, but they were also still calling 911 with

Without entering the pin code because on iphone you can do that. Oh, so someone else was calling 9-1-1 maybe off her phone Yeah, so both phones were being used and then the galaxy dies and they move to the iphone They try to enter the pin code incorrectly, but are still calling 9-1-1. That's crazy on day 11 april 11th Keep in mind day 11 in the jungle

The hike starts off just like a normal hike, but then they get deep into the Panama jungle in this hike. The iPhone was turned on at 10.51 a.m. and stayed on for one hour and then was switched off, never to be used again.

I will upload a picture with a complete timeline of these calls on our social media so you can kind of see how often and everything. But in total, 77, 112, 911, attempted calls were made until the 11th. Oh, man, that's so frustrating. 77 times they tried to call for help. Yeah.

Something odd about the calls is that they were all made roughly around the same time of day, but not during sunrise and not during sunset. So how would the girls have known? Like they would literally flip the phone on around the same time of day every single day to try to call. And it was like, how would they have known what time it was? They didn't have a watch. Yeah, well...

Oh, I see what you're saying. Like they were, they made the calls like around one 12 every day. And then around three 12, you know, and it was like, it wasn't the sun, you know, because it wasn't sunset. It wasn't sunrise. Yeah.

Onto the next item from the backpack that could help the investigation, the digital camera. The camera did not have the issue of battery life and still had battery life when it was found. There was 133 photos on the memory card, the first one starting that morning of the hike.

There were pictures of each girl on the pianista trail, them together in good spirits, good weather, happy, signing thumbs up and smiling big. So literally on this memory are on this memory card, basically this camera, there's pictures of the girls on the hike hiking.

Just laughing, smiling, taking pictures of the views, taking pictures of the water, posing, thumbs up, selfies on this exact hike that morning. I mean, I guess in 2014, because I'm just trying to think, why weren't they just using their phone to take pictures? I mean, I know people still use cameras. So I think it was like the iPhone 5, I think is what she had. So it's still pretty. It was still pretty new. So I think digital cameras were still a thing. Okay. So a blogger wrote about this trail.

The trail can be broken into three sections. In the first 45 minutes, you will walk through open area pasture land with gorgeous views of the surrounding mountains and downtown city. Second, you enter a dense jungle surrounded by lush vegetation, birds and insects. In here, you will walk for about an hour and a half and enter the cloud forest where it is very humid and magical as you are literally walking in the clouds.

Finally, after another 30 minutes climbing the mountain, you will reach the top and will be fully, you know, you'll see the whole entire view. Basically, it's a really amazing experience. OK, based on that review, we can determine that the girls were most likely in section one of the hike during these first pictures because they weren't in the jungle. Yeah, they were like out in the open. There was just land for days, water.

At around 1 p.m., the girls took pictures at the first lookout point in the hike. So that first 45 minutes, the first lookout point. It's said that most people get to this lookout point, eat lunch, whatever, and then turn around and head back

down instead of going on because the terrain and the hike in the jungle is hard and dangerous and advanced like only advanced hikers go on to that part there's literally signs now when you get to that hike saying if you're not an experienced hiker if you're just a tourist turn around don't continue don't go on into the jungle well it's the it's the jungle like it's literally the jungle

Yeah. So 30 pictures total of the girls were taken on the hike. The last set clearly show that they had gone into the jungle a little bit, but they had left the trail slightly. They had actually crossed. So the jungle enters and this is the way for the one hike, but they had crossed over onto the other side of the mountain still on a trail. It's just not the same trail. And that, that, that trail loses service. Yeah.

So I'm trying to think too, because I'm sure this hike sounds super popular. So was there a ton of other people around? Yeah. People saw them. People saw them on the hike. Like there's, there's eyewitnesses who were like, yeah, I saw the girls on the hike. They were in good spirits, but we turned around after the lookout and they kept going into the jungle and they didn't even go into the jungle on this hike. They went into a different trail. See, why would they keep going? If like you said, they didn't even, that's the part that's confusing. Water bottle. Yeah. It felt like they didn't plan. Yeah.

And they had researched, there's like proof that they had researched the hike beforehand. So they knew, they knew, but there's waterfalls in the jungle. And I guess people like get to the lookout and then are like, well, we could just hike to the first waterfall. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, I guess it's like when you're having fun, you're just like, oh, let's just keep going. We don't need water. We'll be fine. Yeah.

So they cross over to the other side of the mountain. They go, they lose self-service because that trail doesn't have self-service. And literally pretty soon after they lose that self-service, they dialed for help because it was still daytime when they dialed for help.

So the last image from that day on the camera is named image 508. It's not actually picture 508, but it's named image when you look it up is 508. The next photos on the camera weren't taken until about a week later in the early hours of April 8th.

So they took pictures on day eight of the disappearance. And the phone was used until April 11th. Yes. Okay. But the camera, the last image of that day of them being, well, at this point, they're not in the lookout anymore. The pictures start to go. And I'll upload these pictures of these girls on the hike. They start, not all 30 of them. They haven't even released all 30 of them, but I'll upload the ones I can. They start getting into the jungle and-

say that the pictures the girls start kind of looking not as happy I don't I think that's a stretch like they don't look sad you know what I'm saying they're just not like thumbs up being it looks more like candid pictures like Chris is maybe taking a picture of Leanne while she's hiking or something like that so

Image 508 is our last one from that day before the 911 calls are happening. But that strangely, and this is a big part of this case, the next photo from a week later, the ones that are taken in the middle of night is image 510, which means image 509 is missing and it's been deleted from the camera.

Okay. There's one photo missing. It goes 508 to 510. 509 is missing. Do we know if it was deleted by the authorities possibly? So no, we don't know who it's deleted by. This is weird because the girls took so many photos. Like when I went to Disney World freshman year of high school, I just got my iPod touch and I literally took thousands of photos of everything I could. Like so many unnecessary photos, signs, pictures.

of the road, you know, this at Disneyland, this, not even of me, just like of the food, like everything I could take a picture of that I'm never going to use again. This is what the girls were doing. Like their pictures were like of the trail and of this rock and of... Well, you don't just...

You don't delete your photos because you're just taking as many as you can. Well, and that's the thing. It's like, why would they delete one when there were blurry photos in that bunch? And we could be wrong because maybe there is people that delete their photos. I don't know. But it just sounds very unlikely. They hadn't deleted one photo from their trip. Yeah. Every single photo from their trip from two weeks ago...

was in order not one photo was missing they all lined up and then they hit image 509 on the hike during the time that the 911 calls are happening and it's deleted yeah that's weird so not to mention it was deleted at least after the first picture a week later was taken because get this

If they had taken the picture 509, image 509, and went, oh, I hate my smile in that, and deleted it for some reason, even though they had deleted one other picture, the next picture taken would replace 509. It would be image 509. So 509 wasn't deleted until after 510 was taken a week later.

So this image wasn't deleted until a long time after it was taken. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense, but it makes no sense. I know. So the other weird part,

manual deletion of a picture from the camera does not actually mean it's permanently erased. Um, it specialists have gone on, studied the camera and everything. Um, they were like, we're easily going to be able to retrieve this. Like they just deleted it off. It's not actually gone. But upon further investigation, they discovered it was permanently erased, which means someone plugged the camera into a computer to permanently erase image five zero nine.

And there's like a whole bunch of like, well, what if it had just gotten overrided after weeks? But like they have literally said there was even if that does happen, it doesn't erase it completely. There still would have been 20 percent of the photo or something like that. So IT specialists have said, no, this was plugged into a computer and permanently deleted. I think that's why I kind of asked the question about it being authorities. Yes. So.

I'll get into that. I'll get into that. Okay. So the piece of this case is confusing and important because under the theory that the girls became lost, there was no computer in the jungle for them to delete. So was a third party involved? And if so, what was on image 509 that made them take it to a computer to

to permanently delete it. Did the girls accidentally take a picture of someone who was about to hurt them? Like was, did they, was there evidence of them? And so they had to delete it. Yeah. I mean, that's the only thing that comes to my mind. Yeah. So, but then the weird part is they then take the, they could have just took the camera. They then put the camera back in the backpack and nicely paste it on the rice paddy.

Like, you know what I'm saying? I mean, it makes no sense. It just doesn't. So the other theory is that the Panama detectives took the photo and deleted themselves and haven't released it because they like no one else has access. So we don't know who it was deleted by, which is a very popular theory. So you are on track with that as well. Maybe it showed something that they don't want out there for tourism or something like that. So the next set of photos were the nighttime ones that I was talking about a week later.

a lot of the sources made these photos seem like they happened that night. So when I was getting on and I was reading this story, it sounded like the girls go missing, they dial 911, image 509 gets deleted. And then that night at 1:00 AM, they start taking pictures with the camera. That's what all the sources made it sound like. And then I found a source that was like, these were taken one week later. And I was like, like, Whoa.

I thought that was a big deal. So I was really surprised that the sources hadn't cleared that up because there's a big difference between taking pictures that same night you went missing or you're lost and you're scared and you're taking pictures for whatever reason and taking them a week later. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. So let me just clarify real quick. So they took the first set of pictures, which in the day, which was the first stretch of the hike. And

And then the second set of pictures was a week later on the second stretch of the hike. No, it was a week later in the middle of the night. So the pictures are dark at 1 to 4 a.m. We don't know where they're at. Okay. But you can see them. You can't see the girls. Oh. The pictures are... That's what I'm about to explain. The pictures are...

with a flash on in the middle of the Panama jungle. Okay, sorry. So we don't actually know what section of, if they're even on the hike at that point. It was a week later. Got it, okay. But it's weird. It is weird. It's weird. So yeah, and the girls don't appear in any of the pictures. Okay.

So, yeah, the one week later after the photos of them gleefully hiking in the dead of night between one to between one and four a.m., there were 90 pictures taken of the dark. That's so. This is about one picture every two minutes.

I would assume they were trying to see where they're at or someone was trying to see where they're at. Yeah. You're just jumping ahead on all these. I know. I'm sorry. So these nighttime photos are eerie and they literally do scare the crap out of me when I look at them because can you imagine being in the jungle in the middle of the night? Like majority of the photos are pitch black, some showing bits of the jungle, you know, bushes, trees, dirt, whatever. So they were lost.

right well there are few that actually show anything and i'm going to tell you what some of the pictures show that actually have them from between 1 to 4 a.m in the middle of the night one was it was a rock and on top of the rock were pieces of red plastic bag tied to some branches so they had it was like someone had taken some sticks i'll call them sticks because they were tiny tied pieces of red bag on them and then laid it on the rock and took a picture of it

Some theories are that they were using the red to like flag people down, like trying to get a helicopter to see him or something. But the pieces of the red were so small. Like I don't, I don't feel like that was enough to flag someone, but I guess you're desperate, right? It was like a red plastic bag. Yeah. I don't know. I have no idea what that could be. The next picture is,

And there are rumors that this picture is fake. Like I said, the Panama government hasn't been the best at releasing these. So most of these are leaked. So some people say this next picture is fake. Like it's not actually part of it. But then like real credible sources have used this. That's why I'm putting it in. Okay. Is a photo of the back of Chris's head.

It's literally just her hair lit up by a flash. You can't see any... It's like so cropped in that it's just hair. It's just strawberry blonde hair. You can't see anything. There was like this huge problem with someone like overlapped it with blood. And so then there was this huge rumor that it was the back of her head all beaten and bloody. But then...

And detectives went in and said, no, that's not it. This is the real raw image. Okay. Some people are saying that real raw image isn't even included in the nighttime photos. So I'm not sure, but it is kind of eerie. Like to look at that picture, I'm like, okay, whatever.

Um, another one that has stuff in it is there's like some paper. Some people are calling it toilet paper. I don't know. It's like paper on a rock. All this is on a rock again, a reflective object that looks like a tiny little mirror, the circle mirror or something, and a piece of a strap that most likely looks like the backpack strap. And they're all like laying on a rock.

Well, that would make sense because the backpack was found perfect, right? Yeah. It was just a strap. It was like half hanging in so the backpack could have been laying and then just the strap was showing. Okay. The reason it's important to me that these were actually taken a week after the girls were last seen

Is because a super popular theory for the reason, which is what you said, is that they were using the flash to see as they tried to hike somewhere for help or whatever, which first of all is scary as crap. Like, oh yeah. Can you imagine using a flash to see in the Panama jungle because you're lost? It's hard though. Cause then I thought about,

As you were saying that again, they did have their phones. But I think they were conserving battery to call, which is why they kept turning them off and on. Yeah, that's true. Okay. It's just the whole thing scares me. Like I can't imagine. I can't imagine. This theory made sense to me though, when I thought that these pictures were taken the same night that they went missing because I was like, oh, they go missing. It starts to get dark. They're freaking out. They start using their phone as a flash. But a week later, every two minutes, I'm like,

I don't feel like that's what they were using it for because why wouldn't they have just done that the night of? Oh my gosh, it makes no sense. And this theory is super popular. And I think it's because no one has cleared up the fact that those pictures weren't taken that night. They were taken a week later. And you're for sure that they were taken a week later? Yes. Oh.

Another theory is that Chris, the strawberry blonde, the picture of the head, had actually been hurt. And so Leanne was going to leave after like taking care of her for a while to leave to try to go get help because she thought she was going to die. But she used the camera to document where Chris was just in case she gets lost and doesn't know how to get back to her. So she was taking pictures of the things around them, things that she had left on rocks. So I thought about the hurt one because that's why I was

figuring that they were using both phones because maybe they were just stuck hurting. They were just switching phones. They couldn't move. They couldn't walk. So that's what my first thought was when we first started this story. I feel like this theory is pretty plausible. Like they've stayed together as girls, but now they realize no help is coming. It's a week later. Yeah.

And so Chris is like, you have to go get help. And Leanna's like, okay, I'm going to separate you. I'm going to leave you. I'm going to hike because Chris can't walk or something. And I'm going to try to go get help. And she starts taking pictures of things to remember where Chris is so that if she does find someone, they know how to get back. But why would she go in the middle of the night at 1 a.m.? I was just going to say, why don't you just wait? Wait until the daytime. It just doesn't make sense. Oh, man. I don't know. Anyways, so...

This is a theory I think is very plausible. This is my favorite theory. The last theory is that they were using the flash to try and signal for help. Like maybe they had thought that someone was nearby and they were using it like a flare gun, like pointing the camera up and flashing it over every two minutes to like,

yelling for help, like trying to get someone to come. Maybe they woke up, it's 1 a.m. and they heard something, people or something. And they were like, someone's nearby because that would make sense why at 1 a.m., you know? So after the cops had gone through the evidence inside the backpack found by the local, they knew that they had to continue searching around the area for more clues. Some native people from the tribe helped them out with the search. And on June 19th, 2014, bones were found on the land.

Oh, no. They found bones, jean shorts, and two different shoes along the river. Because this is all along that river. The jeans were found folded neatly on top of a rock, according to some sources, and floating in the river, according to others. That is so creepy. The bones were found hours away from the backpack.

Where the backpack was placed, their bones were found. So a question real quick. So bones. How did they find bones if it's only been... How long has it been? Three months. It's been three months. See, that's such a short time that...

Babe, you should have just told this case because you were jumping ahead of everything I was about to say. I feel like I'm usually not this interested. That's rude. Not in that way, but you know what I mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. You don't like it. You hate it. I know. So there weren't very many bones found, obviously. And they were both connected back to Chris and Leanne. They were their bones. And the next thing found was a shoe.

But it wasn't just a shoe. It was a boot. But it wasn't just a boot. It had a sock in it. And it didn't just have a sock in it. It had a foot in it with skin and tissue still attached. Oh, my gosh. See, this is the part where I start to check out. Not check out, but I'm like, you are kidding me. The boot had been tied around the ankle like a boot would. And the foot was secured inside and it had just been...

plopped off it was just the foot in the boot and it was confirmed to be leanne's foot i was confused when i first heard this thinking you know how could a foot have just been severed off pretty cleanly no bite marks no tool marks on the bone no anything of natural causes like how did that just fall off like no one was making a big deal about this um and i was like what the heck but um her foot was

Was definitely, you know, I was thinking her foot was definitely cut off by someone. But upon further study, I found out that decomposition can actually take a foot off. Like the ankle bone can actually deteriorate enough that it just like falls off. But it's only been three months. But it's only been three months. Okay. So a piece of pelvis bone, like a whole half of a pelvis bone, like it just been broken half. And a rib belonging to Chris were also found. The strange part, these bones were bleached.

Bleached. Yeah, you heard me. Bleached. What? Like they had been put in bleach, completely cleaned, and they were found completely clean. Oh, so someone was hiding DNA or something of that sort. Or it was something completely just...

Yeah, I don't know. But I'm thinking like, how could it be naturally bleached? Like I know bones can get naturally cleaned off by bugs. You know, first the big animals come and then the small animals come and then the insects come. And I get that they, you know, when you find like, when we're shed hunting, when you're shed hunting, if those of you don't know, if you go out in like...

What would you call it? Just like open land. Sometimes you can find bones of dead animals. Both are sheds. They're sheds. They just shed them off basically. Yes, yes, yes. Not dead animals. Sorry. Just their sheds. And they're like completely clean because like bugs and everything just pick at them and stuff. But not bleached. A bug doesn't come bleach a bone, right? Like they found bleach on the bone. I don't even know. So...

How does that make sense? Whatever. Another strange fact about the bones was that there was still some skin and even pieces of tissue found on them and near them. Like there was a ball of Chris's skin and tissue found in the

And this means that decomp wasn't as far along as they had thought, concluding that the girls had been alive longer than they originally thought, which makes people think that all of the bones and the bodies were manipulated by a third party kept somewhere that altered the natural process of decomp. Because if Leanne's foot was decomposed enough that it literally fell off her shin bone, you know, but then the,

These bones still have skin and tissue on them. That doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't make sense. And also the weather was kind of cold. So they were saying it was like... It would preserve it more. It would preserve, yeah. So it's so hard because these cases, right? We have all these theories and all the theories you've read and people's different theories on Reddit, whatever it may be. And then it's sad when it comes to this end because it's just like...

Well, most likely it was probably what we all think it was at the beginning. They got kidnapped or they got killed or they got raped. Yeah. Horrible as that is. It was most likely one of those outcomes. Yeah.

I mean, essentially we don't know what happened to Chris Kramers and Leanne Froon. Yeah. Um, their families have hiked the exact trail and went all the way to the, where the girls were found, walked those 14 hours to where those girls were found. And they claim that it's a trail the whole way that shouldn't have been really hard to get lost. Like there were no big drop-offs or ravines for the girls to get hurt. They were smart girls. They were going. Yeah. Yeah. One of the dads said, you literally have to make an effort to get lost walking on that. Um,

There was never a cause of death determined either because they didn't collect enough bones. The case was originally declared a homicide and that the girls had been abducted, but when no evidence was presented to back that up, they closed the case and considered it an accident. According to officials, the girls became lost and then died because of the elements or because of an injury or a fall. They think Chris fell first and the

And then Leanne tended to her. And then when Leanne's phone died, she got on Chris's phone and tried to unlock it, but didn't know Chris's password, but kept calling 911. And then eventually left her and took all those pictures to try to figure out how to get back. And then she too also passed away somewhere along the way of, you know,

And an animal could have killed him, could have killed her. She could have fell or died. They could have died from thirst or hunger. The elements, it was also cold. The girls didn't have much protection from it. There was no food. They only had one water bottle and they had no cell service.

There's so much to the story because you think, oh, it could have been an animal. But then what about the bones? There's just so much to it. I too want to think it was an accident. But then there's things that make me question it like the dog. And like you said, we just don't know what happened. The dog returning home. Was he brought home? Did someone, a third party bring him home? Did he literally randomly make his way all the way back home after the girls got lost? And also the dog wasn't in any pictures. Or like you said, the picture that was...

Deleted. Yeah. Image 509 being deleted from a computer. And this picture feels like the missing link between everything being Gucci with the girls and then everything going wrong. And it's gone. The backpack being found cleanly and neatly set down on a rice paddy.

Like who did that? Who said it there? Yeah. Chris's shorts being folded on a rock maybe and the bleaching of the bones, the decomp inconsistency. I do think that the tour guide who showed up to the house is weird. He has a ranch right by where they were hiking. Remember? Yep. Who cares that much? He also supposedly inserted himself into the investigation, which is something we've seen with guilty people before. Yep.

I also think it's weird that they only called for help twice that day, the first day, and then turned their phone off for 14 hours before trying again. Yeah, it was kind of weird. Not to mention the incorrect pin being put in after the Samsung died. Even if it was Leanne and she didn't know the code, which I find weird. I think she would have known the code by then. Why did she need to get in it when she knew she could just make an emergency call without it? Yeah, I mean, I think overall...

I think there's some sort of foul play. Obviously, we don't know, but I feel like there has to have been some sort of foul play. I think another part that we just skimmed over was they left the iPhone on the last day for an hour and a half. They kept turning them on and off trying to conserve battery, and then the last day they used it, they leave it on. I think...

like they were so conscious saving battery feels like whoever had it that day was trying to drain the battery or make it look like it had died yep i personally don't think the nighttime photos are weird besides the fact like i don't think the stuff in the like a lot of people get obsessed of the

the pictures they were taking. I don't think it's that weird because I think they could have been using it for something else other than the fact that they were taken a week after. That is the part that concerns me a little bit. Yeah, I agree. If a third party was involved, why would the girls have kept calling 911? Wouldn't he or he or she or whoever was involved took their phones?

Like why was night, why was it keep getting dialed for help and turning on and off if they were in trouble? I think, how did they have access to their phones? How could they keep dialing? I also find it weird that they only attempted emergency services. If I thought I was in trouble or going to die, I would have tried to call you. I would have left you a message. I would have tried to call my parents. I mean, it wouldn't have gone through, but I would have tried. People I wanted to talk to, others who have been in trouble before with phones have done this. People who were on the 911 place

plane crashes called their family yeah um there was a girl who fell off a cliff and broke her back and couldn't get up and she was just sitting there waiting to get saved she was making videos for her family thinking she was about to die but when they find my body hopefully they'll find these videos these girls didn't make any attempt except to emergency services which makes me feel like maybe it was the bad guys just setting everything up yeah setting it up yeah who knows um

There are many other tourist disappearances in this area. The government there kind of keeps it hidden. The Dutch government can't get all the details. So, you know, we might not even know the half of this case. Yeah. This is my personal opinion. I feel like maybe they got lost, even hurt. Like maybe one of the girls fell or something and got hurt, which is why they called.

They then heard people in the jungle that night between 1 and 4 a.m. And they used the camera to signal them. But there are groups of dangerous people in that area where they were. I mean, in those jungles. I think that when...

They heard this group of people and signaled them. Maybe they were predators. Yeah. And they ended up hurting the girls, messing with the bodies, selling them in sex shops. Who knows? You know, um, cause it was a long time and the decomp wasn't as far along as we thought. So maybe they did stay alive for a lot longer. So real quick, because we're getting towards the end. Did they send any messages? No. Okay. And also the, the camera had video footage, uh, ability and they didn't take one video. Yeah. Um,

I think the people messed with the bodies, fold the clothes, drop the backpack off. This doesn't explain the photo deletion, except for maybe...

I don't know. I don't know why they would have deleted the photo because if my theory, they wouldn't have come until a week later. So they would have been in the photo. Maybe it was an accident. Maybe the girls. I don't know. How do you plug it in and delete it by accident? It does. It does explain why the government would protect their own though and not release stuff. Yeah. If these girls did run into foul play for tourism and everything. Totally. Yeah. That's all I got on this case. Oh, that's a crazy one.

I know. I mean, there's just so many theories that run through my head. So many things it could be, but I, I think I'm kind of lost with this one. I don't. I know you're going to want to check out the photos I'll post for this one because it really does really help put a bow tie on this case for you when you can see, because this is, this case has a lot to do with what they had. And so the photos help the phone call log is going to freak you out. You're going to be like, what the heck? Like why? And yeah,

yeah so make sure to check those out on our social media because those are really going to tie along well with this case and i feel like this is one where we could dive into every theory and this could be a six hour podcast oh i agree i agree completely like i i skimmed it you know what i'm saying and i still had what 11 pages of research you know and it's still an hour almost yeah i mean this is a crazy one and there are a lot of discussions on reddit and stuff youtube everything about this so if you are interested go look it up dive more or go

to our page and start talking about it. I always comment back. People comment back. We can get a discussion going on what your theory is. If I missed a detail, which guys, I'm not going to be perfect. I promise there's going to be times where I miss a detail or I get a detail wrong. Um, tell me like we've had cases where people have been like, I also heard this about this case. Even if it's a conspiracy theory, I don't care. Like I still want to know. Yep. So yeah. Um,

Um, that's the case of Chris Creamers and Leanne Froon. The disappearance murder, I guess you could call it. Maybe not murder. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Well, anyways, guys, I love it. And I hate it. Goodbye.